Detoxing
Joanne
I just need to connect with the group. We are new to unschooling
and actually feel that the best match for our son and our family
would be what is now loosely described as radical unschooling. But
my dh and I are really detoxing! I will only speak for myself from
this point on but I feel like I am on an emotional roller coaster.
Ds (5) digss up all the shale from the back path to make a volcano.
DH and I both have strong feelings but work it through had allow him
to proceed without dumping any further judgment on him. He makes an
awesome volcano which then the family fills with baking soda and
vinegar and it erupts. It was just great. Another episode, DS is
now choosing to stay up very late (way past us guessing 3:00 a.m. or
so) and is sleeping past noon. When we wake him for his horseback
riding lesson he is angry that he has been woken. Now dh and I are
wondering if we are doing the wrong thing allowing him to choose
when he is sleeping half the day and so cranky. Another episode, ds
goes to store and gets overstimulated (my fault ad choice for him)
and climbs up the metal staircase for employees and won't get down.
Then when he does runs all over the store as I try to chase him (and
catch him). When I catch him his body almost seems to relax. I
then carry him out of the store. I feel frazzled but glad I can
talk with him calming not get angry. Another on going challenge ds
just takes something he does want and throws it on the floor. (I
have asked if he could put it in the garbage or give it to me or
leave it on the table.....) Another episode, after dinner Ds wants
me to play tag (again) with he and his friend. I say (which is
consistent on my part) that after dinner mommy likes to wind down.
I like to read and be quieter and get ready for bed. I would be
happy to watch a movie with him. He then gets angry and tells me
that Since I don't do his needs he is not listening to me. This
time I wait. He doesn't throw his food on the floor, he doesn't run
out the door, he doesn't start knocking things over. But he has
done all of those things at others times this week. So I guess I am
saying that we are transitioning and like giving birth it is
uncomfortable and hard work at times. I am not someone who cries
easily and yet I feel teary. I am tired. I am sad for the time I
had put him in school. I am frustrated that I can't reach him
better at times. I am ashamed that I don't know more about what to
do to diffuse the situation. I offer to come close. I offer to
hold him. I offer to give him space. I just want someone to know
that we are hurting. When you drink too much and discover you are
an alcoholic, one can chose to detox and then begin to recover one
day at a time. Well we lived a way that was unhelpful to ds and
have discovered that we need to detox from not only school and
expectations but our own upbringings. We have a strong desire to
find a new way for ds and us but it is really hard right now. I
just didn't want to be alone with all of these new feelings. Sorry
for the lengthy share. I just needed to know someone out there
might be able to offer me some hope. Joanne
and actually feel that the best match for our son and our family
would be what is now loosely described as radical unschooling. But
my dh and I are really detoxing! I will only speak for myself from
this point on but I feel like I am on an emotional roller coaster.
Ds (5) digss up all the shale from the back path to make a volcano.
DH and I both have strong feelings but work it through had allow him
to proceed without dumping any further judgment on him. He makes an
awesome volcano which then the family fills with baking soda and
vinegar and it erupts. It was just great. Another episode, DS is
now choosing to stay up very late (way past us guessing 3:00 a.m. or
so) and is sleeping past noon. When we wake him for his horseback
riding lesson he is angry that he has been woken. Now dh and I are
wondering if we are doing the wrong thing allowing him to choose
when he is sleeping half the day and so cranky. Another episode, ds
goes to store and gets overstimulated (my fault ad choice for him)
and climbs up the metal staircase for employees and won't get down.
Then when he does runs all over the store as I try to chase him (and
catch him). When I catch him his body almost seems to relax. I
then carry him out of the store. I feel frazzled but glad I can
talk with him calming not get angry. Another on going challenge ds
just takes something he does want and throws it on the floor. (I
have asked if he could put it in the garbage or give it to me or
leave it on the table.....) Another episode, after dinner Ds wants
me to play tag (again) with he and his friend. I say (which is
consistent on my part) that after dinner mommy likes to wind down.
I like to read and be quieter and get ready for bed. I would be
happy to watch a movie with him. He then gets angry and tells me
that Since I don't do his needs he is not listening to me. This
time I wait. He doesn't throw his food on the floor, he doesn't run
out the door, he doesn't start knocking things over. But he has
done all of those things at others times this week. So I guess I am
saying that we are transitioning and like giving birth it is
uncomfortable and hard work at times. I am not someone who cries
easily and yet I feel teary. I am tired. I am sad for the time I
had put him in school. I am frustrated that I can't reach him
better at times. I am ashamed that I don't know more about what to
do to diffuse the situation. I offer to come close. I offer to
hold him. I offer to give him space. I just want someone to know
that we are hurting. When you drink too much and discover you are
an alcoholic, one can chose to detox and then begin to recover one
day at a time. Well we lived a way that was unhelpful to ds and
have discovered that we need to detox from not only school and
expectations but our own upbringings. We have a strong desire to
find a new way for ds and us but it is really hard right now. I
just didn't want to be alone with all of these new feelings. Sorry
for the lengthy share. I just needed to know someone out there
might be able to offer me some hope. Joanne
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/28/05 6:51:12 PM, oh.kneel@... writes:
movie. Could you have suggested something else physical?
Could your husband have played with them?
Could you have taken them to a fast-food play-place, read a book and drink a
soda while they play wildly? He would sleep sooner and harder and you
wouldn't be insisting it was your way or no way.
-=- He then gets angry and tells me
that Since I don't do his needs he is not listening to me. This
time I wait.-=-
But he's little. You gave him "No, movie" as an option. Not much option
for so young a child.
He might have been embarrassed because he had company too.
-=- I offer to come close. I offer to
hold him. I offer to give him space. -=-
In words? Maybe it's too much talking and not enough just being gentler,
closer, sweeter.
-=- Well we lived a way that was unhelpful to ds and
have discovered that we need to detox from not only school and
expectations but our own upbringings. We have a strong desire to
find a new way for ds and us but it is really hard right now.-=-
Have you already read the deschooling articles here and linked here?
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
That might help, and if you've already read them maybe read again every month
or so, as some parts will make more sense after some progress.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-Another episode, after dinner Ds wantsIf he was five and had a friend over, he probably didn't want to watch a
> me to play tag (again) with he and his friend. I say (which is
> consistent on my part) that after dinner mommy likes to wind down.
> I like to read and be quieter and get ready for bed. I would be
> happy to watch a movie with him. -=-
>
movie. Could you have suggested something else physical?
Could your husband have played with them?
Could you have taken them to a fast-food play-place, read a book and drink a
soda while they play wildly? He would sleep sooner and harder and you
wouldn't be insisting it was your way or no way.
-=- He then gets angry and tells me
that Since I don't do his needs he is not listening to me. This
time I wait.-=-
But he's little. You gave him "No, movie" as an option. Not much option
for so young a child.
He might have been embarrassed because he had company too.
-=- I offer to come close. I offer to
hold him. I offer to give him space. -=-
In words? Maybe it's too much talking and not enough just being gentler,
closer, sweeter.
-=- Well we lived a way that was unhelpful to ds and
have discovered that we need to detox from not only school and
expectations but our own upbringings. We have a strong desire to
find a new way for ds and us but it is really hard right now.-=-
Have you already read the deschooling articles here and linked here?
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
That might help, and if you've already read them maybe read again every month
or so, as some parts will make more sense after some progress.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joanne
I had to read you response several times. I found myself getting defensive, wanting to explain. But after the fourth time I realized how controlling I had been. I was trying to direct him. After they had ran around for hours, I ask he and his friend if they wanted to the library to pick a movie. The friend did but ds really did not. But we convinced him. At the time I thought I "meant" well and that it was a good idea. Oh my gosh. I am so embarrassed. The grooves run so deep! :( Thank you for the link for unschooling! Joanne
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: oh.kneel@... ; [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Detoxing
In a message dated 10/28/05 6:51:12 PM, oh.kneel@... writes:
> -=-Another episode, after dinner Ds wants
> me to play tag (again) with he and his friend. I say (which is
> consistent on my part) that after dinner mommy likes to wind down.
> I like to read and be quieter and get ready for bed. I would be
> happy to watch a movie with him. -=-
>
If he was five and had a friend over, he probably didn't want to watch a
movie. Could you have suggested something else physical?
Could your husband have played with them?
Could you have taken them to a fast-food play-place, read a book and drink a
soda while they play wildly? He would sleep sooner and harder and you
wouldn't be insisting it was your way or no way.
-=- He then gets angry and tells me
that Since I don't do his needs he is not listening to me. This
time I wait.-=-
But he's little. You gave him "No, movie" as an option. Not much option
for so young a child.
He might have been embarrassed because he had company too.
-=- I offer to come close. I offer to
hold him. I offer to give him space. -=-
In words? Maybe it's too much talking and not enough just being gentler,
closer, sweeter.
-=- Well we lived a way that was unhelpful to ds and
have discovered that we need to detox from not only school and
expectations but our own upbringings. We have a strong desire to
find a new way for ds and us but it is really hard right now.-=-
Have you already read the deschooling articles here and linked here?
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
That might help, and if you've already read them maybe read again every month
or so, as some parts will make more sense after some progress.
Sandra
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queenjane555
>Another episode, DS is now choosing to stay up very late (way pastI think there is several issues here. I think i'd need more info to
>us guessing 3:00 a.m. or so) and is sleeping past noon. When we
>wake him for his horseback riding lesson he is angry that he has
>been woken. Now dh and I are wondering if we are doing the wrong
>thing allowing him to choose when he is sleeping half the day and
>so cranky.
know what the situation is...what time do you go to bed? Before you
go to sleep, do you make up a comfy place for your son so he can
fall asleep when he wants to? Is he watching tv?Playing on the
computer? Playing quietly in his room? Its hard for me to remember
the exact ages that my son was doing things (he is 9, today
actually!)but i think at 5, i might have made him a comfy "bed" on
the couch or floor in front of the tv, and made sure he had plenty
of tapes (or cartoon cable channel, if we had it), also made sure he
had something to drink handy and maybe a snack. He mightve come to
bed with me later on, or more likely fallen asleep where he was.
Sometimes, if we had a little tv in our room (cosleeping), i'd go to
sleep while he was watching a tape. I dont particularly like going
to sleep with a light on (from nightlight or tv)but am willing to
sacrifice usually esp when he was younger. Now, when we stay at my
mom's (i take care of her a few days out of the week, and stay at
her house on those days), Seamus usually plays computer quietly
while i sleep (same room). At our own apt i usually will go to sleep
on my own (ahhh darkness!)and he comes later. Havent had much luck
getting to him to sleep in his own room yet though.
My son usually goes to sleep around 2-4am and sleeps til 11am-1pm
(varies.) So i dont think your son staying up late and sleeping in
are worrisome alone. Why is he cranky? Because you're waking him
earlier than he'd like? Does he *want* to take the riding lesson?
Can he take a lesson later in the day? Might he prefer to postpone
them for now and keep his later schedule? Given my son's preference
for sleeping in, i wouldnt schedule him for anything before
afternoon time. Luckily, i prefer a "second shift" schedule as well
(so do most members of my extended family, i think its genetic!)so i
don't have too many judgements that he "should" be up by a certain
time...it would cause WAY more problems for me if he woke at 6a and
went to bed at 8p or something.
Is there a more gentle way to wake your son (if that applies), give
him more time to wake up? Sometimes if i do need to wake my son
before he's really ready to wake up, it might take an hour to get
him fully awake. Also, do you talk with him the night before about
his commitments the next day?
Has your son been in school? How long has he been unschooling? I
thought perhaps he hadnt been in school long if he's only 5, but
then remembered there is daycare and preschool that might be an
issue as well. What was your bedtime routine before embracing
radical unschooling? How did you transition to "no bedtimes"? We've
never really had set bedtimes, so this hasnt been much of an issue
for our family.
I'll reply to the rest of your post in another post so this won't
get too long.
Katherine
queenjane555
> Another episode, ds goes to store and gets overstimulated (myIs he otherwise a pretty "high energy" child? If so, then i'd say
>fault ad choice for him) and climbs up the metal staircase for
>employees and won't get down. Then when he does runs all over the
>store as I try to chase him (and catch him). When I catch him his
>body almost seems to relax. I then carry him out of the store. I
>feel frazzled but glad I can talk with him calming not get angry.
this is pretty typical behavior. I don't remember if my son was
still doing it at 5, but i know from the time he could walk, until
he was at least probably 4, he needed to be strapped down in a cart
for me to be able to shop. Otherwise he was gone. I usually had to
carry him through a parking lot, or hold his hand very tightly.
Before he was born, i really thought that the only kids who darted
out in the street or didnt stay close to their moms were kids that
didnt get a chance to explore, kids whose moms relied on strollers
too much. I didnt count on having such a high energy kid (who
definantly wouldve been labelled ADHD in school)...in restaurants he
would climb over the booth if not in a highchair. Sometimes it felt
like a nightmare, like everything was a struggle. Sometimes i took
it too personally (like he was punishing me by not letting me shop)
and ended up in tears. Its good to know that you are handling it
calmly...i wasnt very good at it then.
If i had to do it over again, i wouldve spent more time being his
partner, instead of the "mom who has to chase him down and strap him
into the cart"...i wouldve started earlier, as a toddler, exploring
the store with him, looking at anything he wanted to, including him
in the process instead of making shopping something i was doing TO
him. Its hard to know if it wouldve changed his behavior, but it
wouldve changed our relationship i think.
As for doing things like climbing on the employee ladders...my son
still does that, at age 9. He always comes down when i ask now
though (not without protest)...i think for some kids, its just too
tempting. Maybe if you see something like that try to distract him,
dont go down the aisle, maybe really get into talking about it, what
its used for, talk to him about why he can't be on it. For me, those
situations kind of suck, because i feel like i'm forced to enforce
the store's rule or get yelled at by some salesperson, when very
often their fears are unfounded (would your son *really* get hurt by
climbing up a couple of steps, and then down, with you watching,
keeping him safe? Probably not, and yet i know i feel like i'm
letting my son do "bad" if i allow it.) We got yelled at (well, in a
very singsongy polite way)by the lady at the shoestore in the mall
the other day. Seamus was trying on shoes, and was running up and
down the (carpeted, empty,short)aisle we were in, to see if the
shoes would fall off when he ran (they did). "No running, i dont
want you to get hurt"...i said "oh he's just testing out his
shoes" "I know, but i dont want him to get hurt"...there was zero
chance of him getting hurt, but yet we were still reprimanded. So i
can see how a kid might not fully buy into WHY he can't do
something, because oftentimes there isnt a real good reason behind
it.
>Another on going challenge ds just takes something he does wantDo you mean food wrappers and that sort of thing? Is he doing it on
>and throws it on the floor. (I have asked if he could put it in
>the garbage or give it to me or leave it on the table.....)
purpose (defiantly, like "There YOU pick it up!"), or is he just
forgetful? My son does this quite often...like sometimes it doesnt
even *occur* to him that we have these things called garbage cans.
Just a bit ago, i asked him (i had been in another room), did you
throw your paper plate in the garbage? "oh i'll go do it!"...later i
go in, yes he threw out the plate, but left the ketchup sitting on
the table. Didnt think "oh on my way to the garbage, i'll stick this
in the fridge. " He isnt doing it to be wasteful (i've had to throw
out food that he's left out overnight), or to be disrespectful, i
think its just how is mind works...he's thinking too quickly, and
once he's done he's onto the next thought, which isnt usually "now i
should clean up." Not sure if its the "correct" thing to do, but i
usually just pick it up and throw it away. Sometimes i
comment "you've left wrappers on the floor" and either wait a bit
for him to clean them up, or do it myself. Its improved as he's
gotten older, and i think he'll get better at it.
>Another episode, after dinner Ds wants me to play tag (again) withWell, he has a point i think. You told him what you needed, but not
>he and his friend. I say (which is consistent on my part) that
>after dinner mommy likes to wind down. I like to read and be
>quieter and get ready for bed. I would be
> happy to watch a movie with him. He then gets angry and tells me
> that Since I don't do his needs he is not listening to me.
much info about how to address *his* needs. That doesnt always mean
your needs go out the window (although i think the younger the
child, the less your needs get attention)...playing tag probably
seemed pretty important to him at the time. Maybe you could have
said "i'll play tag for ten minutes but then i need to do something
less active"...compromised? I think in another post you wrote that
his friend agreed to the movie and you both were trying to convince
him....maybe he felt ganged up on, like his friend didnt even have
his back yknow? Do you think he wouldve accepted compromising? He
and his friend playing tag while you watch? Is this something
ongoing (him wanting to do something really active in the evening,
you wanting to relax), or is it mostly because of a friend being
there? If it wasnt a regular thing i think i'd have just done what
he wanted.
>This time I wait. He doesn't throw his food on the floor, heIs this something he just started since leaving school, or is it
>doesn't run out the door, he doesn't start knocking things over.
>But he has done all of those things at others times this week.
typical behavior? My son would have horrible outburts when things
didnt go as planned, or as he wanted, and theyve gotten much less
frequent as he's gotten older (maybe just a few times a year
now?)...so if its just a part of his personality, and how he deals
with anger, then thats not really an unschooling issue, its more an
issue of helping him transition without getting upset. But if its
new behavior that has started very recently, maybe its his response
to the big change of leaving school. Maybe he feels like his whole
world has turned upside down and he doesnt know what to expect. What
have you told him about unschooling? Did he want to leave school?
Are there parts about it he misses, that he's upset at having to
leave(friends, toys, routine?)
All of what you have described sounds like typical behavior for MY
kid...but it is very hard sometimes to get through it, i know. Keep
talking to him, explaining *why*, getting his input, asking for his
help. I think it will get better with time, at least in my
experience.
Katherine
aplan4life
I'm not a radical unschooler yet, but just wanted to give my .02 cents
worth about the stores. Stores more than likely have rules in place
because of previous things that have happened resulting in lawsuits
because of person(s) being injured. Does radical unschooling mean to
allow a child to run around the stores, climbing on things,etc. My
daughter is active in our home and we have had several close calls of
me spilling coffee on her...that is when I'm prepared. I myself have
almost nailed kids who have run out in front of my cart while they are
running through the aisles, or even tripped over them, not to mention
the elderly or a salesperson carrying boxes,etc. That is in the
store, I've had to stop quickly because I didn't see a car backing out
of the parking lot and the driver didn't see me. What about a child?
To me it is a safety issue and one that needs to be handled, before
the child or someone else gets hurt.
worth about the stores. Stores more than likely have rules in place
because of previous things that have happened resulting in lawsuits
because of person(s) being injured. Does radical unschooling mean to
allow a child to run around the stores, climbing on things,etc. My
daughter is active in our home and we have had several close calls of
me spilling coffee on her...that is when I'm prepared. I myself have
almost nailed kids who have run out in front of my cart while they are
running through the aisles, or even tripped over them, not to mention
the elderly or a salesperson carrying boxes,etc. That is in the
store, I've had to stop quickly because I didn't see a car backing out
of the parking lot and the driver didn't see me. What about a child?
To me it is a safety issue and one that needs to be handled, before
the child or someone else gets hurt.
ANNIE HOOD
My kids and I are climbers. Recently, we went on a visit to the local fire
station with a group of friends. I waited until all the kids were off
checking something out and asked one of the firefighters if it would be ok
for me to climb the ladder on the back of the hook & ladder truck -- I was
curious what the top of the fire truck looked like. He said, "no" and I was
quite disappointed. The little kid part of me wanted so badly to just sneak
over and climb up. I really am curious what the top of the fire truck looks
like because you usually just see the sides and the inside of the cab.
As someone who has always been petite, I've often had to resort to using
stepstools, climbing on counters, etc. to reach things. My children (given
that my oldest is 3 and 3 feet tall) do the same :)
The ladders in stores are so enticing to children. I don't have the same
urge to climb up because I'm not really interested in seeing the shelves at
the store from a different perspective. My children though would love to
climb up if they were given the opportunity. The appeal of being as tall as
or taller than mom and dad is universal IMO.
I keep my children in the cart when shopping because that is the only way we
can get anything done. They are both explorers and are full of energy.
They would both run off simply because I was not keeping up with them.
They're also the age where chase is a fun game.
Annie
--
www.naturallynhkids.com
Great parenting is a great career! Ask me how ...
Hope for a cure with a HOPE bracelet
HELP Hurricane Katrina victims with fundraiser #4969
station with a group of friends. I waited until all the kids were off
checking something out and asked one of the firefighters if it would be ok
for me to climb the ladder on the back of the hook & ladder truck -- I was
curious what the top of the fire truck looked like. He said, "no" and I was
quite disappointed. The little kid part of me wanted so badly to just sneak
over and climb up. I really am curious what the top of the fire truck looks
like because you usually just see the sides and the inside of the cab.
As someone who has always been petite, I've often had to resort to using
stepstools, climbing on counters, etc. to reach things. My children (given
that my oldest is 3 and 3 feet tall) do the same :)
The ladders in stores are so enticing to children. I don't have the same
urge to climb up because I'm not really interested in seeing the shelves at
the store from a different perspective. My children though would love to
climb up if they were given the opportunity. The appeal of being as tall as
or taller than mom and dad is universal IMO.
I keep my children in the cart when shopping because that is the only way we
can get anything done. They are both explorers and are full of energy.
They would both run off simply because I was not keeping up with them.
They're also the age where chase is a fun game.
Annie
--
www.naturallynhkids.com
Great parenting is a great career! Ask me how ...
Hope for a cure with a HOPE bracelet
HELP Hurricane Katrina victims with fundraiser #4969
joanne
Oh Katharine, thank you so much! I was starting to fwonder if perhaps I didn't fit in with this group. As if everything my son was doing was somehow related to something I as doing wrong. I know I have a lot to learn but my son has always been like this. It is nothing new. My son has VERY High energy. A psychiatrist had suggested that he be put on medication so that his language issues could better be addressed. I have MS so I can only run around with him for so long. I am still not really sure how I am suppose to highlight what you wrote so that can respond but I will try to do it correctly this time. But now have found that the way I did it doens't allow me to spell check the resposnes I wrote in the body of your text. YIKES!!!
***Do you mean food wrappers and that sort of thing? Is he doing it on
purpose***
I really don't think so. It doesn't seem mean or defiant. It just seems like he is done with something so he is getting it out of his way. I continue to ask each time if he could either give it to me or leave it so that mommy doesn't have to pick it up off the floor. I explained that then I have more work to do which makes less time I can play with him. He gets it at the moment but then seems to forget the next time.
***Well, he has a point i think. You told him what you needed, but not
much info about how to address *his* needs. That doesnt always mean
your needs go out the window (although i think the younger the child, the less your needs get attention)...playing tag probably seemed pretty important to him at the time. Maybe you could have
said "i'll play tag for ten minutes but then i need to do something less active"...compromised? ***
That probably would have been a good idea. I had played tag with them already before we left to go to the library so that I was just feeling a bit tired.
***Do you think he wouldve accepted compromising? He
and his friend playing tag while you watch?***
My ds seems to get a very specifc idea in his head about what he wants. He almost gets stuck there. I have seen it with me and with his freinds. He seems to have trouble compromising at those times and just keeps saying what he wants over and over again. If after playing tag or whatever game for quite a while, when I want to stop he gets very upset. I remind him how many minutes are left so the transition is not a surprise and he still says it is too short. If we can only do what he wants all of the time I end up feeling a bit like I am being controlled by a five year old. It doesn't feel good.
***Is this something
ongoing (him wanting to do something really active in the evening,
you wanting to relax), or is it mostly because of a friend being
there?***
No he usually wants to keep playing actively after dinner. In the past we have tried to redirect or distract him. But as I am learning about unschooling I am also learning that I need to really hear his needs and then help support him in creatively finding ways to meet those needs.
***Is this something he just started since leaving school, or is it
typical behavior?***
Typical behavior for him. He has difficulty with transitioning from one activity to another even when enjoys the one we are transitioning to
***What have you told him about unschooling? Did he want to leave school? Are there parts about it he misses, that he's upset at having to leave(friends, toys, routine?)*** My ds had not wanted to go to school when he was younger (3-5) but since he has special needs we thought that we were doing the best things for him by sending him to experts that "specialize" in these things. He is happy to be home. He wanted to try kindergarten since it was a new school but after a few days didn't want to go anymore. We had told him that if he wanted to stop he could stay home. We explained that there were different ways to do school. We haven't really clarified for him the difference between home schooling and unshcooling.
*** Keep
talking to him, explaining *why*, getting his input, asking for his
help. I think it will get better with time, at least in my
experience.****
Thanks you for the encouragement and the support. Joanne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***Do you mean food wrappers and that sort of thing? Is he doing it on
purpose***
I really don't think so. It doesn't seem mean or defiant. It just seems like he is done with something so he is getting it out of his way. I continue to ask each time if he could either give it to me or leave it so that mommy doesn't have to pick it up off the floor. I explained that then I have more work to do which makes less time I can play with him. He gets it at the moment but then seems to forget the next time.
***Well, he has a point i think. You told him what you needed, but not
much info about how to address *his* needs. That doesnt always mean
your needs go out the window (although i think the younger the child, the less your needs get attention)...playing tag probably seemed pretty important to him at the time. Maybe you could have
said "i'll play tag for ten minutes but then i need to do something less active"...compromised? ***
That probably would have been a good idea. I had played tag with them already before we left to go to the library so that I was just feeling a bit tired.
***Do you think he wouldve accepted compromising? He
and his friend playing tag while you watch?***
My ds seems to get a very specifc idea in his head about what he wants. He almost gets stuck there. I have seen it with me and with his freinds. He seems to have trouble compromising at those times and just keeps saying what he wants over and over again. If after playing tag or whatever game for quite a while, when I want to stop he gets very upset. I remind him how many minutes are left so the transition is not a surprise and he still says it is too short. If we can only do what he wants all of the time I end up feeling a bit like I am being controlled by a five year old. It doesn't feel good.
***Is this something
ongoing (him wanting to do something really active in the evening,
you wanting to relax), or is it mostly because of a friend being
there?***
No he usually wants to keep playing actively after dinner. In the past we have tried to redirect or distract him. But as I am learning about unschooling I am also learning that I need to really hear his needs and then help support him in creatively finding ways to meet those needs.
***Is this something he just started since leaving school, or is it
typical behavior?***
Typical behavior for him. He has difficulty with transitioning from one activity to another even when enjoys the one we are transitioning to
***What have you told him about unschooling? Did he want to leave school? Are there parts about it he misses, that he's upset at having to leave(friends, toys, routine?)*** My ds had not wanted to go to school when he was younger (3-5) but since he has special needs we thought that we were doing the best things for him by sending him to experts that "specialize" in these things. He is happy to be home. He wanted to try kindergarten since it was a new school but after a few days didn't want to go anymore. We had told him that if he wanted to stop he could stay home. We explained that there were different ways to do school. We haven't really clarified for him the difference between home schooling and unshcooling.
*** Keep
talking to him, explaining *why*, getting his input, asking for his
help. I think it will get better with time, at least in my
experience.****
Thanks you for the encouragement and the support. Joanne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555
> Stores more than likely have rules in place because of previous(s) being injured.
>things that have happened resulting in lawsuits because of person
I wonder if this is true though. I know people say that "oh they'll
get sued" but i think it has to do ALOT with what people expect from
children...not to climb, not to be in weird places they arent
supposed to be in (like underneath a cart), not to be boisterous.
Almost all carts that i've seen have a little diagram showing how a
child is NOT to sit in the cart, just in case a parent is scratching
their head going "hmmm....where do i put the baby? On that tray
underneath???" Most of those ladder stair thingys say "employee use
only"...i would think that these precautions would relieve them of
responsibility if you choose to ignore the warnings.
Yes, i think walmart doesnt want kids to be hurt in their stores.
But i also think walmart employees have a huge expanded view of what
will hurt a child.
> To me it is a safety issue and one that needs to be handled,I havent seen anyone yet (not done reading the posts though) saying
>before the child or someone else gets hurt.
you should let your child run wildly throughout the store. Info i've
tried to give is how to meet your child's needs to explore the store
without making him feel bad about it.
I've also experienced enough times, a store employee telling my son
to stop doing something when IMO it wasnt a safety issue, that i
think it becomes sort of a discrimination-against-kid-behavior
issue.
Katherine
joanne
Also for me as a parent I do not want my child to run wildly through the stores per se but if he has decided to take off I have to catch him first to stop him. Joanne
***I havent seen anyone yet (not done reading the posts though) saying
you should let your child run wildly throughout the store. Info i've
tried to give is how to meet your child's needs to explore the store
without making him feel bad about it.***
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***I havent seen anyone yet (not done reading the posts though) saying
you should let your child run wildly throughout the store. Info i've
tried to give is how to meet your child's needs to explore the store
without making him feel bad about it.***
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 29, 2005, at 9:09 AM, queenjane555 wrote:
it in unnecessarily aggressive anti-kid kinds of ways.
I think "they don't want you to do that here" is a perfectly good
reason for a parent to give a kid. We don't need to really know WHY
they don't want us to do it - it is THEIR property, not ours. If a
kid asks why they don't want him to do it, we can speculate that
they're worried (perhaps needlessly, but still worried) about his
safety or that maybe a kid got hurt and they got sued before or that
they've HEARD that when kids get hurt parents often sue and so on. It
could be a worthwhile conversation - but, ultimately, the real answer
is that whether or not we agree there is a safety issue and even if
we know WE would never sue them, they are the management and if they
don't want us to do that there, we can either go somewhere else or
abide by their wishes.
I don't let the neighbor kids get in and out of the pool, when
they're swimming at our house. I don't let them get out and jump back
into the pool - even though I know this is fun. I'm not a big mean
controlling parent with rules for no reason who likes to have power
kids. And when it is only my own kids in the pool, they can do what
they want. But it is MY house and my pool and I'm letting them swim
here and I want them to just stay in the pool. It is nerve-wracking
for ME when they're out on the deck and jumping in - I don't enjoy
myself, I get more stressed, this is MY issue but so what? I'm "the
management" and if kids want to know why I have this rule, it is hard
to explain about MY psychological processes - how do I tell a five-
year-old that he gets to swim at my house FAR
If you think an employee is enforcing a rule that the store
management would NOT agree with, then by all means complain to the
store management. But if a kid is climbing a store ladder, I bet the
store management is going to say they don't want him to do that. They
might cite safety issues, but it might just be that they just don't
like it. They get to decide - they're the "management." If WE think
the management of a store is so unfriendly to kids that we don't want
our kids exposed to it, then we can shop without our kids or shop
somewhere else. And we can complain to management about employees who
behave rudely to our kids, especially if it is in a place where kids
are presumably welcome (like a kids' museum, etc.).
At HOME, we get to decide how much freedom our kids will have. People
here argue that there are wonderful benefits of giving kids FAR more
freedom than typical/conventional parents. And we can find ways to
give our kids more freedom outside our homes, too, especially by
finding friends who share our parenting philosophies and spending
lots of time in kid-friendly places. But there are people who are
handicapping their kids by NOT helping them understand that life
will be more difficult for them if they don't learn to discern when
and where to insist on "their way" and when to abide by other
peoples' wishes.
These aren't moral or ethical choices - I mean, there ARE times to
stand up to authorities even WHEN they are "in charge" - there are
most definitely times to refuse to abide by management's desires.
Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat is a perfect example. In 1966
or so, my dad was working on getting financing for a customer of his
(my dad owned an industrial building construction company) when he
suddenly realized that his bank was engaging in outright
discrimination against the customer because of his race. My dad could
have said, "Well, it is their bank," but he didn't - he asked to
speak to the bank manager and closed his multi-million dollar
business accounts with that bank, on the spot. And he reported them
to various agencies.
So there are times to take a stand and refuse to go along with other
people's desires/rules/etc! But life is smoother and happier when
people accept that there are times to respect other peoples' rights
to be seemingly arbitrary in their OWN spheres of control. When this
doesn't involve any kind of moral/ethical/right versus wrong/serious
compromise of standards - then creating harmony and happiness and
peace in the world is ALSO valuable and worthwhile.
I've noticed that some who love the whole radical unschooling/
respectful parenting approach can really go too far - maybe it is
those who felt extremely controlled as a kid, themselves, and are
saying, "I'm NOT doing that to my kid and I'm not going to let
anybody ELSE do it to my kid, either." Which is good - I'm glad there
are so many of us who are finding ways to give our kids so much more
freedom! But I see a "defiance" sometimes - like they've not let go
of the "rigidity" of the controlling parenting style - but they're
applying that "rigidity" to making sure their kid doesn't get
controlled in any way by anybody. In a way, those parents are still
BEING controlled - if they are still reacting "against" the way they
were raised. It is possible to move beyond that - to even more
mindful parenting which will be less hostile, less defensive, calmer,
more peaceful, and allow for sometimes going along with controls and
not feeling "bristly" over things like a grocery store employee
asking kids not to climb on the store ladder.
I think that also there is a further and higher level of trust in our
children that we can reach, as well, if we've protected and respected
them when they were little and helped them learn how to respond to
other people being arbitrary and controlling, then we don't have to
constantly be on guard to create a world/environment around them that
is absolutely respectful and courteous and never arbitrary - at
least, as they get older, they'll be able to appropriately respond to
it themselves and make their own decisions about going along or not.
For example, if we're talking about a 3 year old climbing on a store
ladder, the parent might hug the child sweetly while removing him
from the steps and give him a kiss and say, "They don't want us to
climb their ladder in this store," and move quickly on to, "Hey do
you want to pick out cereal?" If we're talking about a 5 year old,
the parent might say, "I know you're a safe ladder climber, but they
don't know that here, so that's why they don't want you to climb -
makes them too nervous. But, hey, when we get home do you want to get
our BIG ladder out and climb up it?" If we're talking to a 9 year
old, we might have a more in-depth conversation about arbitrary rules
and why stores have them and it might get into lawsuits and how some
people will sue for anything and what happens to prices because of
that and on and on. If we're talking about a 13 year old, depending
on the kid, the parent might not say a word, just let the kid decide
how to respond. If the employee is rude, then I do think it is
appropriate for a parent to say, "No need to be rude," or something
like that. When the kids are getting up into their teens, I do think
the parents should, at that point, more and more trust their kids to
decide if they want to address rudeness or arbitrariness or whatever,
not do it "for" them, even if it annoys the parent. This comes up
because teens DO quite often get spoken to rudely by people "in
authority" and I know I "bristle" - it brings back my own teen years
of being treated less than respectfully. But I think my kids have the
right to decide if this is a time that they want the rudeness
addressed or not - so I will sometimes bite my tongue and let it
slide. The kids know my urge to "protect their environment" is still
strong and sometimes they'll even say, quietly, "It is okay, mom,
just ignore it." BUT, they will also sometimes ask me to step in -
as Roya did at the CIty Museum in St. Louis when an employee was very
rude to her and some other kids. She knows that if she asks, that I
will try to at least lodge a complaint about that employee - assuming
that if there are enough complaints that something will be done.
Anyway - it is a balance we all have to find and well worth
discussing. Interesting how the issue doesn't really disappear as the
kids grow up, it changes form but we continue to deal with it.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I've also experienced enough times, a store employee telling my sonEven when it IS a possible safety issue, sometimes employees address
> to stop doing something when IMO it wasnt a safety issue, that i
> think it becomes sort of a discrimination-against-kid-behavior
> issue.
it in unnecessarily aggressive anti-kid kinds of ways.
I think "they don't want you to do that here" is a perfectly good
reason for a parent to give a kid. We don't need to really know WHY
they don't want us to do it - it is THEIR property, not ours. If a
kid asks why they don't want him to do it, we can speculate that
they're worried (perhaps needlessly, but still worried) about his
safety or that maybe a kid got hurt and they got sued before or that
they've HEARD that when kids get hurt parents often sue and so on. It
could be a worthwhile conversation - but, ultimately, the real answer
is that whether or not we agree there is a safety issue and even if
we know WE would never sue them, they are the management and if they
don't want us to do that there, we can either go somewhere else or
abide by their wishes.
I don't let the neighbor kids get in and out of the pool, when
they're swimming at our house. I don't let them get out and jump back
into the pool - even though I know this is fun. I'm not a big mean
controlling parent with rules for no reason who likes to have power
kids. And when it is only my own kids in the pool, they can do what
they want. But it is MY house and my pool and I'm letting them swim
here and I want them to just stay in the pool. It is nerve-wracking
for ME when they're out on the deck and jumping in - I don't enjoy
myself, I get more stressed, this is MY issue but so what? I'm "the
management" and if kids want to know why I have this rule, it is hard
to explain about MY psychological processes - how do I tell a five-
year-old that he gets to swim at my house FAR
If you think an employee is enforcing a rule that the store
management would NOT agree with, then by all means complain to the
store management. But if a kid is climbing a store ladder, I bet the
store management is going to say they don't want him to do that. They
might cite safety issues, but it might just be that they just don't
like it. They get to decide - they're the "management." If WE think
the management of a store is so unfriendly to kids that we don't want
our kids exposed to it, then we can shop without our kids or shop
somewhere else. And we can complain to management about employees who
behave rudely to our kids, especially if it is in a place where kids
are presumably welcome (like a kids' museum, etc.).
At HOME, we get to decide how much freedom our kids will have. People
here argue that there are wonderful benefits of giving kids FAR more
freedom than typical/conventional parents. And we can find ways to
give our kids more freedom outside our homes, too, especially by
finding friends who share our parenting philosophies and spending
lots of time in kid-friendly places. But there are people who are
handicapping their kids by NOT helping them understand that life
will be more difficult for them if they don't learn to discern when
and where to insist on "their way" and when to abide by other
peoples' wishes.
These aren't moral or ethical choices - I mean, there ARE times to
stand up to authorities even WHEN they are "in charge" - there are
most definitely times to refuse to abide by management's desires.
Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat is a perfect example. In 1966
or so, my dad was working on getting financing for a customer of his
(my dad owned an industrial building construction company) when he
suddenly realized that his bank was engaging in outright
discrimination against the customer because of his race. My dad could
have said, "Well, it is their bank," but he didn't - he asked to
speak to the bank manager and closed his multi-million dollar
business accounts with that bank, on the spot. And he reported them
to various agencies.
So there are times to take a stand and refuse to go along with other
people's desires/rules/etc! But life is smoother and happier when
people accept that there are times to respect other peoples' rights
to be seemingly arbitrary in their OWN spheres of control. When this
doesn't involve any kind of moral/ethical/right versus wrong/serious
compromise of standards - then creating harmony and happiness and
peace in the world is ALSO valuable and worthwhile.
I've noticed that some who love the whole radical unschooling/
respectful parenting approach can really go too far - maybe it is
those who felt extremely controlled as a kid, themselves, and are
saying, "I'm NOT doing that to my kid and I'm not going to let
anybody ELSE do it to my kid, either." Which is good - I'm glad there
are so many of us who are finding ways to give our kids so much more
freedom! But I see a "defiance" sometimes - like they've not let go
of the "rigidity" of the controlling parenting style - but they're
applying that "rigidity" to making sure their kid doesn't get
controlled in any way by anybody. In a way, those parents are still
BEING controlled - if they are still reacting "against" the way they
were raised. It is possible to move beyond that - to even more
mindful parenting which will be less hostile, less defensive, calmer,
more peaceful, and allow for sometimes going along with controls and
not feeling "bristly" over things like a grocery store employee
asking kids not to climb on the store ladder.
I think that also there is a further and higher level of trust in our
children that we can reach, as well, if we've protected and respected
them when they were little and helped them learn how to respond to
other people being arbitrary and controlling, then we don't have to
constantly be on guard to create a world/environment around them that
is absolutely respectful and courteous and never arbitrary - at
least, as they get older, they'll be able to appropriately respond to
it themselves and make their own decisions about going along or not.
For example, if we're talking about a 3 year old climbing on a store
ladder, the parent might hug the child sweetly while removing him
from the steps and give him a kiss and say, "They don't want us to
climb their ladder in this store," and move quickly on to, "Hey do
you want to pick out cereal?" If we're talking about a 5 year old,
the parent might say, "I know you're a safe ladder climber, but they
don't know that here, so that's why they don't want you to climb -
makes them too nervous. But, hey, when we get home do you want to get
our BIG ladder out and climb up it?" If we're talking to a 9 year
old, we might have a more in-depth conversation about arbitrary rules
and why stores have them and it might get into lawsuits and how some
people will sue for anything and what happens to prices because of
that and on and on. If we're talking about a 13 year old, depending
on the kid, the parent might not say a word, just let the kid decide
how to respond. If the employee is rude, then I do think it is
appropriate for a parent to say, "No need to be rude," or something
like that. When the kids are getting up into their teens, I do think
the parents should, at that point, more and more trust their kids to
decide if they want to address rudeness or arbitrariness or whatever,
not do it "for" them, even if it annoys the parent. This comes up
because teens DO quite often get spoken to rudely by people "in
authority" and I know I "bristle" - it brings back my own teen years
of being treated less than respectfully. But I think my kids have the
right to decide if this is a time that they want the rudeness
addressed or not - so I will sometimes bite my tongue and let it
slide. The kids know my urge to "protect their environment" is still
strong and sometimes they'll even say, quietly, "It is okay, mom,
just ignore it." BUT, they will also sometimes ask me to step in -
as Roya did at the CIty Museum in St. Louis when an employee was very
rude to her and some other kids. She knows that if she asks, that I
will try to at least lodge a complaint about that employee - assuming
that if there are enough complaints that something will be done.
Anyway - it is a balance we all have to find and well worth
discussing. Interesting how the issue doesn't really disappear as the
kids grow up, it changes form but we continue to deal with it.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 29, 2005, at 1:37 PM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
My point was that there are reasons we adults might have that truly
ARE inexplicable to a young child. How do I tell a five year old
about my own psychological needs - that if they swim more safely (not
getting out and jumping back in over and over) that I'm going to feel
more at ease and he'll get to swim at my house FAR more often.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't let the neighbor kids get in and out of the pool, whenHmmmm - last sentence of this paragraph did something weird.
> they're swimming at our house. I don't let them get out and jump back
> into the pool - even though I know this is fun. I'm not a big mean
> controlling parent with rules for no reason who likes to have power
> kids. And when it is only my own kids in the pool, they can do what
> they want. But it is MY house and my pool and I'm letting them swim
> here and I want them to just stay in the pool. It is nerve-wracking
> for ME when they're out on the deck and jumping in - I don't enjoy
> myself, I get more stressed, this is MY issue but so what? I'm "the
> management" and if kids want to know why I have this rule, it is hard
> to explain about MY psychological processes - how do I tell a five-
> year-old that he gets to swim at my house FAR
My point was that there are reasons we adults might have that truly
ARE inexplicable to a young child. How do I tell a five year old
about my own psychological needs - that if they swim more safely (not
getting out and jumping back in over and over) that I'm going to feel
more at ease and he'll get to swim at my house FAR more often.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/29/05 2:38:55 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
-=-
opportunities. They are now 19, 16 and 13 (for four more days).
Marty is the middle kid, 16. He has a costume from last year. It's a
super hero he created from parts, called "Above Average Joe." He decided last
night that he would put on the Above Average Joe costume (minus the platform
shoes, which are very cool but dangerous) and go running around town. A friend
of his went to take photos.
He wanted photos in front of landmarks, so they went to Old Town, where he
was posing here and there (I haven't seen the photos yet), and because there
were ghost tours going on around the plaza and Marty was upstaging the tour
guides, he was (in his words) "thrown out of Old Town."
He said a security guard talked to him very nicely, asked who he was with
(meaning what tour group, he figured) and when he said he was just there with his
friend, the guard said "I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to ask you to leave
because of the tours" or some such.
Marty COULD have been lawyerly and argued that they were public streets and
Albuquerque has no curfew, etc... but he didn't. He said when they were
passing by one tour group one of the young women squealled "it's SUPERMAN!" and
everyone else in the group screamed, and he posed for them all. He realized
he was being disruptive, and left peaceably. <g>
They got their photos, he got some attention, and was a nice guy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-
> I think that also there is a further and higher level of trust in ourI see this with my own, who have always had LOTS of freedom and choices and
> children that we can reach, as well, if we've protected and respected
> them when they were little and helped them learn how to respond to
> other people being arbitrary and controlling, then we don't have to
> constantly be on guard to create a world/environment around them that
> is absolutely respectful and courteous and never arbitrary - at
> least, as they get older, they'll be able to appropriately respond to
> it themselves and make their own decisions about going along or not.-=-
>
opportunities. They are now 19, 16 and 13 (for four more days).
Marty is the middle kid, 16. He has a costume from last year. It's a
super hero he created from parts, called "Above Average Joe." He decided last
night that he would put on the Above Average Joe costume (minus the platform
shoes, which are very cool but dangerous) and go running around town. A friend
of his went to take photos.
He wanted photos in front of landmarks, so they went to Old Town, where he
was posing here and there (I haven't seen the photos yet), and because there
were ghost tours going on around the plaza and Marty was upstaging the tour
guides, he was (in his words) "thrown out of Old Town."
He said a security guard talked to him very nicely, asked who he was with
(meaning what tour group, he figured) and when he said he was just there with his
friend, the guard said "I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to ask you to leave
because of the tours" or some such.
Marty COULD have been lawyerly and argued that they were public streets and
Albuquerque has no curfew, etc... but he didn't. He said when they were
passing by one tour group one of the young women squealled "it's SUPERMAN!" and
everyone else in the group screamed, and he posed for them all. He realized
he was being disruptive, and left peaceably. <g>
They got their photos, he got some attention, and was a nice guy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-=-
My point was that there are reasons we adults might have that truly
you'll think back and understand." I try to say yes lots and lots, and when I
know I'm going to be very uncomfortable, I say so. Sometimes they amend
their plan, sometimes they reassure me, sometimes they agree to call when they
get there, and call every day (or whatever kind of unease it is, they figure out
something reassuring).
Lots of times I've asked them to come down from a high climb or something for
the reason that I'm getting scared or that I'm afraid. I've stopped things
lots of times because they were uncomfortable or afraid, and because I was
willing to do that, they're willing to do that for me.
I think parents who do the old traditional pressure and shame ("Just do it,
don't be a baby," or "Buck up and take it--the rest don't want to quit yet so
we're not quitting" or whatever) are just putting resistence in the bank and
that kid will turn around and say no right back at the parents.
To say yes instead of no, though, isn't the same as "I don't care what you
do."
You don't want your kids to say to you in return "I don't care what you do."
If they trust your advice, and learn how to take and give advice from years
of careful counsel and deep conversation, when you get older and want their
help or advice, I bet you're more likely to get it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My point was that there are reasons we adults might have that truly
> ARE inexplicable to a young child. How do I tell a five year oldWith my own kids, I tell them "It's a mom thing," and "When you're a parent
> about my own psychological needs - that if they swim more safely (not
> getting out and jumping back in over and over) that I'm going to feel
> more at ease and he'll get to swim at my house FAR more often.-=-
>
you'll think back and understand." I try to say yes lots and lots, and when I
know I'm going to be very uncomfortable, I say so. Sometimes they amend
their plan, sometimes they reassure me, sometimes they agree to call when they
get there, and call every day (or whatever kind of unease it is, they figure out
something reassuring).
Lots of times I've asked them to come down from a high climb or something for
the reason that I'm getting scared or that I'm afraid. I've stopped things
lots of times because they were uncomfortable or afraid, and because I was
willing to do that, they're willing to do that for me.
I think parents who do the old traditional pressure and shame ("Just do it,
don't be a baby," or "Buck up and take it--the rest don't want to quit yet so
we're not quitting" or whatever) are just putting resistence in the bank and
that kid will turn around and say no right back at the parents.
To say yes instead of no, though, isn't the same as "I don't care what you
do."
You don't want your kids to say to you in return "I don't care what you do."
If they trust your advice, and learn how to take and give advice from years
of careful counsel and deep conversation, when you get older and want their
help or advice, I bet you're more likely to get it.
Sandra
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[email protected]
In a message dated 10/29/05 3:30:41 PM, oh.kneel@... writes:
When people babytalk a child, they're putting another layer between
themselves and the child. It's a wedge in a relationship not to be whole and real and
direct. It's one thing to babytalk an actual non-speaking infant; older
kids benefit from adults modelling real, honest, whole communications.
-=- I explained that then I have more work to do which makes less time I can
play with him. -=-
Is that REALLY why you don't want him to learn to use a trashcan?
Is it really worth that much explaining?
If you die today and can never play with him again, shouldn't he still put
trash in the trash can?
He should do it because it's the right thing to do. It makes HIM a better
person. For you to "take it out of his check" as it were, and blame him for
you giving him less attention (even if it's an empty threat) is not dealing
directly with the real issue.
Trash doesn't belong on the floor. If he's just really too little, don't
let him unwrap his own food or cards or toys or whatever. You could unwrap
them and put the trash away and then hand him the unwrapped thing.
Sandra
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> I continue to ask each time if he could either give it to me or leave it soDo you refer to yourself as "mommy" when you talk to him?
> that mommy doesn't have to pick it up off the floor.
>
When people babytalk a child, they're putting another layer between
themselves and the child. It's a wedge in a relationship not to be whole and real and
direct. It's one thing to babytalk an actual non-speaking infant; older
kids benefit from adults modelling real, honest, whole communications.
-=- I explained that then I have more work to do which makes less time I can
play with him. -=-
Is that REALLY why you don't want him to learn to use a trashcan?
Is it really worth that much explaining?
If you die today and can never play with him again, shouldn't he still put
trash in the trash can?
He should do it because it's the right thing to do. It makes HIM a better
person. For you to "take it out of his check" as it were, and blame him for
you giving him less attention (even if it's an empty threat) is not dealing
directly with the real issue.
Trash doesn't belong on the floor. If he's just really too little, don't
let him unwrap his own food or cards or toys or whatever. You could unwrap
them and put the trash away and then hand him the unwrapped thing.
Sandra
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Betsy Hill
**If we can only do what he wants all of the time I end up feeling a bit
like I am being controlled by a five year old. It doesn't feel good.**
I would encourage you to see what you can do to substitute a more
positive attitude on this issue. He's a young human being and someone
needs to meet his needs.
(Maybe finding other people for him to play with some of the time might
be helpful.)
His ability to mutually problem solve with you will undoubtedly improve
over time, but right now you are the person who has the responsibility
to solve problems with whatever resources and creativity you can throw
at them. It's really worrisome IF you start to think of him as part of
the problem.
**No he usually wants to keep playing actively after dinner. In the
past we have tried to redirect or distract him. But as I am learning
about unschooling I am also learning that I need to really hear his
needs and then help support him in creatively finding ways to meet those
needs.**
Yes. I think that's what people were saying. That's really the key
idea here.
Betsy
like I am being controlled by a five year old. It doesn't feel good.**
I would encourage you to see what you can do to substitute a more
positive attitude on this issue. He's a young human being and someone
needs to meet his needs.
(Maybe finding other people for him to play with some of the time might
be helpful.)
His ability to mutually problem solve with you will undoubtedly improve
over time, but right now you are the person who has the responsibility
to solve problems with whatever resources and creativity you can throw
at them. It's really worrisome IF you start to think of him as part of
the problem.
**No he usually wants to keep playing actively after dinner. In the
past we have tried to redirect or distract him. But as I am learning
about unschooling I am also learning that I need to really hear his
needs and then help support him in creatively finding ways to meet those
needs.**
Yes. I think that's what people were saying. That's really the key
idea here.
Betsy
Pamela Sorooshian
> **No he usually wants to keep playing actively after dinner. In theI had a really super high energy child (my oldest). I wonder if you
> past we have tried to redirect or distract him. But as I am learning
> about unschooling I am also learning that I need to really hear his
> needs and then help support him in creatively finding ways to meet
> those
> needs.**
>
> Yes. I think that's what people were saying. That's really the key
> idea here.
>
really need to get him even MORE exercise during the day - maybe he
needs far far more than you do or ever did, more than you can
imagine. Some active kids that age can pretty much go full blast with
intense physical activity all day long - they desperately need that
very intense strenuous active time - not a few hours a day, but
almost ALL the time, every day.
It really sounds like he's not getting worn out enough, physically,
throughout the day and so ends up the day with a LOT of pent-up
energy. What you want is for him to be physically tired so that he's
READY to have a hot bath, maybe spend some time playing with toys in
the bathtub, have a cup of warm cocoa and some graham crackers, brush
teeth, get nice clean pajamas on, watch a movie with you while all
cuddled up under a blanket. Lower the lights, watch something he's
seen before and liked, nothing too thrilling. (Musicals are good.)
The key to all of this is for him to have many HOURS of intense
outdoor play time every single day. Get a trampoline - get Dance,
Dance Revolution. Go to a karate class every day. Swim as much as
possible - consider a swim team so he can swim almost every day.
Maybe tap dance, if he'd like that. Ice skating. Gymnastics can be
good if there isn't too much standing around, waiting. You have to
support the REAL child you have - and you have a very physically
demanding high energy kid. Other people may not have kids who are so
needy of physical outlet and so may not understand how important it
is for him to burn off all that energy - how exhausting it can be if
he doesn't get that chance. I don't think you described his "special
needs" - but if it includes lack of focus, lack of attention,
hyperactivity, etc., then PLEASE for his sake consider making it a
very high priority to provide him with MANY hours of free play
physical activity time as well as possibly some more structured
intense activity time. If you're thinking of organized sports,
remember that soccer involves much more active play time AND, in
general, is more supportive and positive. BUT organized sports is NOT
a substitute for free play time, no matter what the sport is.
It does sound like he wears YOU out - and that description of him
STILL wanting to play tag after dinner when you are ready and eager
and needing to wind down - was very familiar to me, so you have my
sympathy and understanding for wanting to just say no way, because
you're at your low-energy time of the day and he's still energized.
-pam
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[email protected]
In a message dated 10/29/2005 2:39:11 PM Central Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
but, ultimately, the real answer
is that whether or not we agree there is a safety issue and even if
we know WE would never sue them, they are the management and if they
don't want us to do that there, we can either go somewhere else or
abide by their wishes.
~~~
Or, you can reason with the management if you have the opportunity and see
if you can have an exception granted. Most of the things we're talking about
are not worth that kind of interaction, but sometimes it is.
Of course, the chances that you will get an exception are determined by a
lot of factors, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
I think if a parent doesn't have the time to rock the boat with the
management to get something for their child (a chance to climb the ladder), then they
shouldn't let their kid climb it without asking, either. But I don't see
the harm in asking.
Karen
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pamsoroosh@... writes:
but, ultimately, the real answer
is that whether or not we agree there is a safety issue and even if
we know WE would never sue them, they are the management and if they
don't want us to do that there, we can either go somewhere else or
abide by their wishes.
~~~
Or, you can reason with the management if you have the opportunity and see
if you can have an exception granted. Most of the things we're talking about
are not worth that kind of interaction, but sometimes it is.
Of course, the chances that you will get an exception are determined by a
lot of factors, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
I think if a parent doesn't have the time to rock the boat with the
management to get something for their child (a chance to climb the ladder), then they
shouldn't let their kid climb it without asking, either. But I don't see
the harm in asking.
Karen
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[email protected]
In a message dated 10/29/2005 2:39:11 PM Central Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
If we're talking about a 5 year old,
the parent might say, "I know you're a safe ladder climber, but they
don't know that here, so that's why they don't want you to climb -
makes them too nervous. But, hey, when we get home do you want to get
our BIG ladder out and climb up it?"
~~~
I would take this a little less towards the personal and make sure the kid
knows they don't want ANY person on the ladder, other than those who work
there.
If I had said, "You can't do that" to my kids, they would take it
personally. It would help them understand the principle better if my language was less
personally directed.
I know would probably consider this, Pam, but I wanted to point it out.
Karen
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pamsoroosh@... writes:
If we're talking about a 5 year old,
the parent might say, "I know you're a safe ladder climber, but they
don't know that here, so that's why they don't want you to climb -
makes them too nervous. But, hey, when we get home do you want to get
our BIG ladder out and climb up it?"
~~~
I would take this a little less towards the personal and make sure the kid
knows they don't want ANY person on the ladder, other than those who work
there.
If I had said, "You can't do that" to my kids, they would take it
personally. It would help them understand the principle better if my language was less
personally directed.
I know would probably consider this, Pam, but I wanted to point it out.
Karen
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[email protected]
In a message dated 10/29/2005 3:19:18 PM Central Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
I get really irritated at people who aren't keeping their kids safe -
~~
Me, too. I stood outside the library for 5 minutes watching a toddler go in
and out the automatic door, while her mother was at the counter 100 FEET
AWAY, distracted by what she was doing. Only occasionally did she look up to
check on the baby, and I kept expecting her to come and get the child, or her
older child to, but neither one did. At least one time she looked and SAW her
baby outside library with the door closed, and she still didn't come. I
hovered near the baby to keep her from going out in the street. But what if I
just wanted to take a baby home? I could have had her in my arms and gone in
no time.
Karen
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pamsoroosh@... writes:
I get really irritated at people who aren't keeping their kids safe -
~~
Me, too. I stood outside the library for 5 minutes watching a toddler go in
and out the automatic door, while her mother was at the counter 100 FEET
AWAY, distracted by what she was doing. Only occasionally did she look up to
check on the baby, and I kept expecting her to come and get the child, or her
older child to, but neither one did. At least one time she looked and SAW her
baby outside library with the door closed, and she still didn't come. I
hovered near the baby to keep her from going out in the street. But what if I
just wanted to take a baby home? I could have had her in my arms and gone in
no time.
Karen
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Betsy Hill
** Me, too. I stood outside the library for 5 minutes watching a
toddler go in
and out the automatic door, while her mother was at the counter 100 FEET
AWAY, distracted by what she was doing.**
I saw a toddler get her fingers painfully trapped in a library door.
(Cupertino library). It definitely wasn't the best door design, but
closer supervision could have made a difference.
I think a child getting lost outside or hit by a car in the parking lot
are the real dangers leaving the library. Statistically the kidnapping
of small children in busy public places is quite rare, and imposing
constant kidnapper-vigilance on mothers is unreasonable in my book.
(Although I reserve the right to quietly worry about avian flu, I'm
putting killer asteroids in my "shrug it off" file.)
Betsy
toddler go in
and out the automatic door, while her mother was at the counter 100 FEET
AWAY, distracted by what she was doing.**
I saw a toddler get her fingers painfully trapped in a library door.
(Cupertino library). It definitely wasn't the best door design, but
closer supervision could have made a difference.
I think a child getting lost outside or hit by a car in the parking lot
are the real dangers leaving the library. Statistically the kidnapping
of small children in busy public places is quite rare, and imposing
constant kidnapper-vigilance on mothers is unreasonable in my book.
(Although I reserve the right to quietly worry about avian flu, I'm
putting killer asteroids in my "shrug it off" file.)
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/29/05 7:07:49 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
Either you are your child's adversary (one of you "wins" and one feels bad
about losing) or you can become partners, and do things together for the good of
your team of two.
Sandra
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> -=-**If we can only do what he wants all of the time I end up feeling a bitBetsy's answer is really good.
> like I am being controlled by a five year old. It doesn't feel good.**
>
> -=-I would encourage you to see what you can do to substitute a more
> positive attitude on this issue. He's a young human being and someone
> needs to meet his needs.-=-
>
Either you are your child's adversary (one of you "wins" and one feels bad
about losing) or you can become partners, and do things together for the good of
your team of two.
Sandra
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elainegh8
Me too
the worst is UK railway stations. The amount of children
running about so close to the edge of the platform makes me feel feel
sick with worry. One trip and they'd be on the track or under a train.
Some trains don't stop at the station and thunder through at speed.
This may sound awful but after years of 'hovering' around other
peoples' children at railway stations to keep them safe now if I see
any kids I go far far away from them down the platform. I can't do it
anymore it makes me so anxious.
BWs Elaine
the worst is UK railway stations. The amount of children
running about so close to the edge of the platform makes me feel feel
sick with worry. One trip and they'd be on the track or under a train.
Some trains don't stop at the station and thunder through at speed.
This may sound awful but after years of 'hovering' around other
peoples' children at railway stations to keep them safe now if I see
any kids I go far far away from them down the platform. I can't do it
anymore it makes me so anxious.
BWs Elaine
>> I get really irritated at people who aren't keeping their kidssafe -
> Me, too. I stood outside the library for 5 minutes watching a
>toddler go in > and out the automatic door, while her mother was at
>the counter 100 FEET > AWAY, distracted by what she was doing.
joanne
Thank you for continuing to challenge me. I sometimes feel frustrated that I am at the beginning of this process as I read from those of you with so much experience and wisdom. Please be patient with me. I express my feelings in the hope that my honesty will challenge my growth not because I am not committed to make the necessary changes. It is a HUGE leap from how I was raised. It sounds right and when it works it feels right. But I am still a newbie who is a wannabe. I hope with time, support, and practice I will continue to grow into the unschooling parent I want to be and someday I can give back to the community some of what I have been so generously given. Joanne
***Either you are your child's adversary (one of you "wins" and one feels bad
about losing) or you can become partners, and do things together for the good of
your team of two.***
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***Either you are your child's adversary (one of you "wins" and one feels bad
about losing) or you can become partners, and do things together for the good of
your team of two.***
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
Good response, Joanne. Hang in there.
-pam
-pam
On Oct 30, 2005, at 9:38 AM, joanne wrote:
> Thank you for continuing to challenge me. I sometimes feel
> frustrated that I am at the beginning of this process as I read
> from those of you with so much experience and wisdom. Please be
> patient with me. I express my feelings in the hope that my honesty
> will challenge my growth not because I am not committed to make the
> necessary changes. It is a HUGE leap from how I was raised. It
> sounds right and when it works it feels right. But I am still a
> newbie who is a wannabe. I hope with time, support, and practice I
> will continue to grow into the unschooling parent I want to be and
> someday I can give back to the community some of what I have been
> so generously given. Joanne
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[email protected]
In a message dated 10/30/05 12:03:17 PM, oh.kneel@... writes:
In philosophy different for every one of us, I think.
-=- Please be patient with me.-=-
People aren't writing to one person here, they're writing to hundreds.
Anyone who puts forth an idea or question or concern is throwing it into the
discussion pot and all those who read will have their own ideas strenghtened or
challenged or changed.
Sandra
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> -=-It is a HUGE leap from how I was raised.-=-For others as well. For me. For the vast majority.
>
In philosophy different for every one of us, I think.
-=- Please be patient with me.-=-
People aren't writing to one person here, they're writing to hundreds.
Anyone who puts forth an idea or question or concern is throwing it into the
discussion pot and all those who read will have their own ideas strenghtened or
challenged or changed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joanne
Thank you! Very good point! Joanne
***He should do it because it's the right thing to do. It makes HIM a better
person. For you to "take it out of his check" as it were, and blame him for
you giving him less attention (even if it's an empty threat) is not dealing directly with the real issue.***
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***He should do it because it's the right thing to do. It makes HIM a better
person. For you to "take it out of his check" as it were, and blame him for
you giving him less attention (even if it's an empty threat) is not dealing directly with the real issue.***
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joanne
Thank you Heather. That you really understand my experience since you have something similar was helpful to me. Some of this adventure and unconventional spirit seems pretty free :) Maybe it will be children like this who will be the next generation of explorers or inventors. Joanne
***I can relate to this. They are the ones that climb all the trees in the park and play very unconventionally on the
playground - and don't wear shoes ;-) Usually, they are climbing and
playing - and everything is a game - even in stores.***
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***I can relate to this. They are the ones that climb all the trees in the park and play very unconventionally on the
playground - and don't wear shoes ;-) Usually, they are climbing and
playing - and everything is a game - even in stores.***
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joanne
I am not always that negative. I think I was having a particularity stressful day. You are right, of course! :) Joanne
***I would encourage you to see what you can do to substitute a more
positive attitude on this issue. He's a young human being and someone
needs to meet his needs.***
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***I would encourage you to see what you can do to substitute a more
positive attitude on this issue. He's a young human being and someone
needs to meet his needs.***
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joanne
Hi Katherine, Kevin has been in full day programs since three since he had special needs. I always would lay with imp until he fell asleep and then when he woke up in the middle of the night would come into our bed. After reading the various posts, I think we have come to opening the bed in the family room (where the t.v. is and I lay with him while he watched his movie. He has other movies and I tell him when I am tired and need to go to sleep. This has been working well so far. I am open to it for as long as he needs. I am able to get enough sleep this way and still allow him to make the choices he feels comfortable with. It is hard to insist a child go to sleep when they are not tired :) Joanne
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