aplan4life

I'm wondering how to handle the control issue on food, movies,
videogames etc. when only I am willing and see the beauty of it? We
are a very loving family and this is not something that I desire so
strongly as to ruin our marriage. The children love their father and
so do I. It's a hard transition on my husband to be married for me
for almost 14 years with agreeing on everything, for me to all of a
sudden not be in agreement anymore.

Has anyone been in a similiar situation? If so, how have you handled
this?

Thanks so much
~Sandy Winn

Dawn Adams

Sandy wrote:

>I'm wondering how to handle the control issue on food, movies,
>videogames etc. when only I am willing and see the beauty of it? We
>are a very loving family and this is not something that I desire so
>strongly as to ruin our marriage. The children love their father and
>so do I. It's a hard transition on my husband to be married for me
>for almost 14 years with agreeing on everything, for me to all of a
>sudden not be in agreement anymore.
>
>Has anyone been in a similiar situation? If so, how have you handled
>this?
>
>Thanks so much
>~Sandy Winn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I've been silent on the list for awhile but this post stood out.


You need to sit down and talk about this and keep talking about it and NOT with an eye towards winning but with a willingness to compromise. Make it clear why you want to unschool and give him some articles and stuff to read but keep in mind and let him know that this is not to convince him, but to help him understand why it's important to you. Then ask what he thinks are important issues surrounding homeschooling and parenting and take his concerns seriously. Then you guys need to work out some compromises. My DH just won't go for no bedtimes. So we have a 'quiet time' where my kids can go to their room by a certain time and read or play in bed until they're ready for sleep. That covers his need for time alone and with me and leaves the kids in control of their sleep. Not ideal but it works reasonably well for now. And down the road, who knows? He's loosened up on a LOT in the two years we've been unschooling and really enjoys a lot of the perks now.

Back up, take a breath and regroup. If your prime concern is for your kids then your desire to unschool should NOT be threatening your marriage. If it's a good and healthy relationship then it would just be cruel to your children to break it up over this. You're in a partnership. You guys HAVE to negotiate this stuff. You have to listen to his concerns respectfully and help shape some compromises that will address both of your concens. And you won't get to lift limits and all that right away. It just won't happen if he's as opposed as it seems. But take smaller steps. Give him time. Remember, I'm two years in and bedtimes are still something we have to compromise on. Slow down.

Dawn





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

It's about the same question a what if only one parent wants to buy a new
truck, or only one parent wants to move to a different state. Until both agree,
it's not happenin'!

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brandie

> I'm wondering how to handle the control issue on
> food, movies,
> videogames etc. when only I am willing and see the
> beauty of it?


I think you let go of it. There are so many spouses
who won't have their children unschool *at all*.
Yours is at least willing to let them unschool their
learning.

My husband wasn't totally thrilled about the whole
unschooling idea at first. We really slowly eased
into it. The unschooling of their learning happened
first and then over time, controls on food, TV, video
games, etc. happened. For us, it happened gradually.
I would share emails from this list and other info
with him on occasion. And somehow, he has progressed
into an dad who truly believes in unschooling. I
think it is because I let him be, that I didn't create
a huge issue about it all. We didn't fight about it,
we didn't have any major discussions about it. It
just happened.

Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
http://homemadeliving.blogspot.com





__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

jenstarc4

>
> My husband wasn't totally thrilled about the whole
> unschooling idea at first. We really slowly eased
> into it. The unschooling of their learning happened
> first and then over time, controls on food, TV, video
> games, etc. happened. For us, it happened gradually.

That was the same with us. Also, once you start questioning the why
of things, your kids will follow. Kids are really good at
questioning "why", but in traditional settings, that type of
questioning is frowned upon,(and honored in inspirational posters at
the same time). When dad was saying "no" and not letting go of
bedtimes and such, my dd would get so frustrated and ask me why. I
just started directing her to her dad, so that he could answer those
questions for himself.

Your kids will question their father if he doesn't let go. All kids
question things they think are unfair. So, let it go and direct
their questions to the person setting up the "rules". Don't do the
united front thing. Let them question and let them know your
answers honestly.

nellebelle

>>>>>>>>Don't do the
united front thing.>>>>>>>>>

Yes, that is such a dumb idea - that the children must never see the parents disagree on anything. They can learn a lot by seeing their parents have respectful discussions about issues.

I try to respond in a way that doesn't sound hurtful to dh, but when he is acting disrespectfully to the children I always say something about it. Sometimes I will wait and talk to him about it later. It just depends on the situation and how the children are reacting.

Or I will question him. "Does it really matter if the kids do (or don't) ...?" Sometimes he is just responding without thinking. When he stops to think about it, he often realizes that the action or behavior is OK.

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca Benson

I am in EXACTLY the same situation. My husband and I have gotten into numerous arguments over everything you mentioned. We have also argued about doing chores. I look forward to reading everyone's responses. It feels good to know I'm not alone with this situation.
Rebecca

aplan4life <aplan4life@...> wrote:
I'm wondering how to handle the control issue on food, movies,
videogames etc. when only I am willing and see the beauty of it? We
are a very loving family and this is not something that I desire so
strongly as to ruin our marriage. The children love their father and
so do I. It's a hard transition on my husband to be married for me
for almost 14 years with agreeing on everything, for me to all of a
sudden not be in agreement anymore.

Has anyone been in a similiar situation? If so, how have you handled
this?

Thanks so much
~Sandy Winn





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca Benson

I know this was written to someone else, but...My husband knows that I don't agree with his views on a lot of unschooling issues and he knows that the kids are aware of this, but what gets messy is that he wants certain rules, like "No TV before 3pm," or "No video games before 5pm" enforced by me while he is at work all day. Part of me feels that I shouldn't go against his wishes since he should have a say-so in how the kids are raised, but the other part of me thinks, "His rule, let him play gestapo with the kids." Obviously things are not all sunshine and happiness in the Benson household....
Rebecca


jenstarc4 <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
Your kids will question their father if he doesn't let go. All kids
question things they think are unfair. So, let it go and direct
their questions to the person setting up the "rules". Don't do the
united front thing. Let them question and let them know your
answers honestly.







---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/19/05 11:50:11 PM, rjpbenson@... writes:


> I am in EXACTLY the same situation.  My husband and I have gotten into
> numerous arguments over everything you mentioned.  We have also argued about
> doing chores.  I look forward to reading everyone's responses.  It feels good to
> know I'm not alone with this situation.
> Rebecca
>
=================================================

Numerous arguments aren't better than requiring chores.

Family unity is worth more than the confusion caused by parents disagreeing
and fighting.

I don't know who wrote that her husband would just move the family to another
state or buy a truck, but that is not really an unschooling issue.

There MUST be parallels to other areas of life. If there's a list about
sailboat ownership and maintenance (there are probably lots of them) or formula
racecars, that doesn't mean everyone should be able to have or do that.

If a family isn't agreed about homeschooling and it causes a divorce, the
kids end up in school.

If a family isn't agreed about unschooling and it causes a divorce, the idea
of unschooling did those children a huge, deep harm.

If a mom wants to move toward not requiring chores, the best way is probably
for her to do the chorse WITH the kids, and encourage whole-family cleanups so
the dad can see the kids' capabilities, and the kids don't see the dad lying
on the couch telling them to clean the yard or something.

Gradually is the only way to go.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

NANCY OWENS

Lucky for us, Darin has never had hard and fast rules about video games or tv. But then if we were not unschooling he would be the more permissive parent in that area. <g> Unschooling was foreign to Darin, he didn't get it and constantly questioned me. He would even sabotage (right word?) things when he got home. He would ask me what I did for school with the kids today. He would ask the kids math and spelling questions. So taking a page from other matters in our marriage I snuck unschooling up on him. Quietly, unassuming. Darin isn't a big reader, he does like to read, just doesn't have the time or energy. So taking that into consideration I would email him articles from Sandra's and others web sites. I would leave books laying around with paragraphs highlighted. And I never, ever said things like 'did you get my email?' or 'did you read such and such in that book I left open on your pillow?' I just sent or left and didn't mention. If he brought it up or asked a question, fine,
great! And I rarely mentioned the word unschooling, to us that was almost a catalyst. I would talk about all the things the kids and I did during the day, and quietly guide schoolish conversations into other, more productive matters. I didn't argue with him or contradict him in front of the kids or otherwise. When he asked the kids schoolish types of questions I would say things like 'did you know that today Jack kept the shopping list and read from it for me while Moly kept the price book and calculator and kept us in our budget?' And my kids aren't quiet about their accomplishments. A few years ago my mom gave Jack a bunch of wood projects, bird houses and such. Lots of instructions, measuring, cutting... not one of those pre cut kits. He had to do most of the work himself. That was impressive for Darin, who when he saw the gift, thought it was more for someone in a high school shop class than a seven year old.

Now six years later if you were to spend a day with us, (a day Darin is here that is) you would probably think he is the more unschoolish of us. And yes it did take years. You can probably deschool a child in a few months to a year, depending on the length of time spent in school. You can deschool your self in about the same amount of time, maybe a bit longer, but someone who is resistant it can take years. But those years can be good. Keep it low key, keep things non-confrontational. You have to be THE example. Take a cue from the moderators of this group. When things get too far away from unschooling topics and become more about schoolish or whatever things, they gently guide the group back on track.
~Nancy

Rebecca Benson <rjpbenson@...> wrote:
I know this was written to someone else, but...My husband knows that I don't agree with his views on a lot of unschooling issues and he knows that the kids are aware of this, but what gets messy is that he wants certain rules, like "No TV before 3pm," or "No video games before 5pm" enforced by me while he is at work all day. Part of me feels that I shouldn't go against his wishes since he should have a say-so in how the kids are raised, but the other part of me thinks, "His rule, let him play gestapo with the kids." Obviously things are not all sunshine and happiness in the Benson household....
Rebecca


jenstarc4 <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
Your kids will question their father if he doesn't let go. All kids
question things they think are unfair. So, let it go and direct
their questions to the person setting up the "rules". Don't do the
united front thing. Let them question and let them know your
answers honestly.







---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

**Darin isn't a big reader, he does like to read, just doesn't have the
time or energy. So taking that into consideration I would email him
articles from Sandra's and others web sites.**

For people who might want to learn a bit about unschooling without
having to read, there is now a video about unschooling. (I've only
watched half of it so far, does anyone else want to comment?)

Betsy

Mercedes

Rebecca wrote:
<<<<< I am in EXACTLY the same situation. My husband and I have
gotten into numerous arguments over everything you mentioned. We
have also argued about doing chores >>>>>.


During out parenting career (our oldest is 24 now), there were often
times when I would say to Barry (after a spanking, or shouting, or a
grounding or whatever), "This is wrong. This is just wrong"


And he would answer, "What's your suggestion, then?"


And I didn't have one. I just knew what I – we – were doing wasn't
right.



When I first started to read about respectful parenting, my kids
were already old – the oldest in his late teens and back in
public school after "school at home" and the middle son being
unschooled "only the school" part.

Things just weren't going as well as I wanted them to.




When I finally discovered whole-life unschooling on this list, even
though I picked stuff for Barry to read – and he did – it took more
than that. It took reading, thinking, contemplating, research,
arguing (in my head, not on the lists <g>) and time.

And I was looking for answers. Barry thought things were going
pretty well. (And they were by the usual standards.)

But when I finally got it, REALLY got it, I was ready to do it NOW
- no, yesterday!

Barry wasn't.


Nancy wrote:
<<<<< Keep it low key, keep things non-confrontational. You have to
be THE example. >>>>>

I think this is the best advice if you have a reluctant spouse. You
have to BE the example. (I changed the emphasis a bit, Nancy <g>)

Every interaction, every day, be the example.

Simple, but not easy.

Mercedes
whose very dear husband has been to two Live & Learn Conferences and
has learned a lot!

ann_mv05

--- In [email protected], Betsy Hill
<ecsamhill@s...> wrote:
>
> **Darin isn't a big reader, he does like to read, just doesn't have
the
> time or energy. So taking that into consideration I would email him
> articles from Sandra's and others web sites.**
>
> For people who might want to learn a bit about unschooling without
> having to read, there is now a video about unschooling. (I've only
> watched half of it so far, does anyone else want to comment?)
>
> Betsy
>

I haven't seen the video, but over time I have been asked a lot of
questions about how unschooling works. When someone is just starting
out I tell them just to start their day by asking their kids what
they would like to do that day, and then do that. I would follow up
that activity by asking 'what sounds interesting to do next?', Or I
would offer several suggestions/choices and let them choose. The
other thing I tell them is that when their kids ask to do something
just say yes more. I remember I would think 'is there any real
reason why they can't?', and if there wasn't I would say yes. These
are small changes that you can do even if hubby isn't on board yet.

With other lifestyle issues like food, just offer them lots of
choices, if your tradition has been set meal times, don't just scrap
that. Instead just ask your kids questions like what sounds good for
lunch etc... With bedtimes, I would just say would you like to watch
the rest of the program, not you don't have a bedtime anymore. You
can evolve into this over time. Think of it as baby steps.
Ann

Pamela Sorooshian

I don't think it is a great "intro to unschooling" video - it is more
of a "human interest" type film. It is a documentary for the non-
unschooing public, not conceived of as something useful for
unschoolers or potential unschoolers.

I wouldn't think it would be particular great at convincing a spouse
or in-laws. There is a tone of the families being very interesting
and unusual - very quirky. That might not BE the approach one would
want to take with a doubting spouse. I know it would have been more
of a turn-off for my dh, not an inspiration to want to BE like them.

I'm not saying there is anything negative about those people featured
in the film - they're great, interesting, articulate, etc. Two of the
three families in the documentary are friends of mine and the third
was really interesting, too. But the film-maker chose them and chose
to feature them as unusual, quirky, a bit eccentric. Which they ARE,
of course, and that's WONDERFUL and inspiration to ME, but I'm
thinking that a spouse, who already thinks this unschooling stuff
sounds a bit too weird, might be more turned off than convinced by
the video.

My husband turned out to be an unexpectedly conventional kind of guy
who likes to "fit in" to society way more than I care about.
Whodathunk it? He came to this country from Iran, a member of a tiny
minority religion that believes in equality of women and men, an end
to racism - very very progressive. I thought he was a risk-taker,
unconventional type of person - but I think he'd USED up his
adventurous spirit just getting here and marrying ME! <G>

So once he was sort of settled in, finished school, good job, married
with children, homeowner, in a community with good schools -- he was
set and happy. "I," on the other hand, was still the same person who
had studied in a field not much open to women, joined a tiny
minority religion, married a guy from Iran - still a person who LIKES
to do the quirky, different thing!

So unschooling appealed to that part of me, while my husband is still
completely bewildered by it. He's never actively fought it - but he
had to "just trust" me. Never "got it." Can't really quite understand
how this all happened - how the kids turned out so "okay." He'd have
liked to have had them in school, winning accolades that he could
brag about to other parents, especially at work. It is hard for him -
he can't say to the guys at work, "Oh, well, MY 14 year old spends
most of her time hanging around at a karate studio with mostly older
guys, playing RISK. That is, when she isn't sleeping late because she
stays up half the night IMing with online friends. He could say she's
taking "college courses," but he'd have to "admit" that those courses
are "musical theater" and "piano" classes. Not too impressive
compared to the guys talking about how their kid has an above 4.0
grade point average or is taking five AP classes or whatever. Oh
well. Poor him. <G> He may not have those kinds of bragging rights,
but he has three daughters who love their family and are all busy and
happy and independent-minded with a strong sense of self and have
strong passions and interests and are enthusiastic about life and
their own futures and are NOT plotting how to get as far away as
possible from their parents as soon as they can! That's pretty cool.

-pam

On Oct 21, 2005, at 6:42 AM, ann_mv05 wrote:

>> For people who might want to learn a bit about unschooling without
>> having to read, there is now a video about unschooling. (I've only
>> watched half of it so far, does anyone else want to comment?)
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela

<<<He may not have those kinds of bragging rights,
but he has three daughters who love their family and are all busy and
happy and independent-minded with a strong sense of self and have
strong passions and interests and are enthusiastic about life and
their own futures and are NOT plotting how to get as far away as
possible from their parents as soon as they can! That's pretty cool.>>>

It's a good trade off, isn't it?

Once in a while I wish I could join in the bragging at family get-togethers
but with unschooling nothing is black and white like A's on report cards and
winning sports teams. My kids are smart and funny and athletic (no sports
teams, just horse back riding almost every day) and caring and kind but it's
hard to qualify for a quick brag. But I wouldn't change a few minutes of
bragging for the relationship we have in our family that I am pretty sure
none of my siblings have with their kids.

Angela
game-enthusiast@...

Schuyler Waynforth

Since bragging rights came up, particularly with this ending, I
thought I'd brag a bit (within context obviously).

Yesterday we went over to a friend's house. While David and the dad
were staying back at home to cook dinner, the mom and her infant and
daughter (5) and Linnaea (5), Simon (8) and I went to the park. On
the way there the little girl really wanted to be the leader. Linnaea
was power skipping and got in the lead. There was a verbal squabble
about who had rights to the front which ended with the friend falling
to the back and whimpering a bit. Not long after Linnaea walked back
to her friend and said, "Could you lead? I don't know where we are
going and you do." I teared up and had to look away. If I had forced
Linnaea to cede the front to this little girl she would never have
been able to be generous in such a wonderful way.

Simon isn't a reader, yet. Linnaea still slurs lmnop into one letter.
Whenever my dad calls he expresses deep concern over their education.
I can't brag about how advanced they are for their ages in school or
in literacy or in numeracy. And I don't know that I want to or need
to. But I know that they both are loving, generous people. I know
that not only can Linnaea at 5 be more generous than almost any other
child I've ever met, but she can do it with a tactfulness that I would
never have predicted. Even if I can only rarely brag about it to a
select group of people.

Schuyler


--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> Not too impressive
> compared to the guys talking about how their kid has an above 4.0
> grade point average or is taking five AP classes or whatever. Oh
> well. Poor him. <G> He may not have those kinds of bragging rights,
> but he has three daughters who love their family and are all busy and
> happy and independent-minded with a strong sense of self and have
> strong passions and interests and are enthusiastic about life and
> their own futures and are NOT plotting how to get as far away as
> possible from their parents as soon as they can! That's pretty cool.
>
> -pam

Pamela Sorooshian

Very cool, Schuyler....thanks for sharing that. And KEEP doing what
you're doing - noticing these kinds of things. It is what good lives
are made of!

-pam

On Oct 24, 2005, at 4:27 AM, Schuyler Waynforth wrote:

> But I know that they both are loving, generous people. I know
> that not only can Linnaea at 5 be more generous than almost any other
> child I've ever met, but she can do it with a tactfulness that I would
> never have predicted. Even if I can only rarely brag about it to a
> select group of people.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ann_mv05

--- In [email protected], "Schuyler Waynforth"
<s.waynforth@b...> wrote:
>
> Since bragging rights came up, particularly with this ending, I
> thought I'd brag a bit (within context obviously).
>
>
> I teared up and had to look away. If I had forced
> Linnaea to cede the front to this little girl she would never have
> been able to be generous in such a wonderful way.
>
> > Schuyler
>
>
>
Schuyler,

It is really neat to hear someone bragging about their kid because
they are kind to others. Why does achievement seem to trump treating
other people well? Imagine how our society would be if kindness were
as championed as honor rolls, good grades, sports skills etc...

My turn to brag:0) We were on a hay rack ride last week. A younger
child lost their shoe, my 11 year old son hops off, retrieves the
shoe and puts it back on for the younger kid. Being so kind and
nurturing is something they certainly don't learn in school. But I
seriously can't think of anything that is more important. Doesn't it
seem like ps champions the less important stuff, and ignores what is
essential?

Ann

Schuyler Waynforth

--- In [email protected], "ann_mv05"
<ann_mv05@y...> wrote:

> Schuyler,
>
> It is really neat to hear someone bragging about their kid because
> they are kind to others. Why does achievement seem to trump treating
> other people well?

I think achievement is so much more readily quantifiable. Grades are
easy to compare, particularly if you don't notice how subjective they
are. It's much more satisfying to drop "well, my daughter just
finished reading the Complete Works of Shakespeare which surprised me
as she is only 5" in a conversation as everyone will oohh and aahh at
your little child prodigy. But if you say "my daughter played nicely
with another little girl, and was kind to her when she was sad" it
isn't going to get the same glorified response.

>
> My turn to brag:0) We were on a hay rack ride last week. A younger
> child lost their shoe, my 11 year old son hops off, retrieves the
> shoe and puts it back on for the younger kid.

What a wonderful moment to watch! It takes happiness to be able to
give without thinking about it.

Being so kind and
> nurturing is something they certainly don't learn in school. But I
> seriously can't think of anything that is more important. Doesn't it
> seem like ps champions the less important stuff, and ignores what is
> essential?
>
> Ann
>

I don't think it is just public school that champions the less
important stuff. I know many homeschoolers who are more impressed
with academic achievement than with anything else. Not that they
don't love their children, but I've been told by a homeschooling
mother that the most important thing she could do for her children was
to make sure that they could be successful, productive adults. If
that meant that her children spent their teenage years at home
studying for GCSE's than so be it. As an aside, David (dh) this week
said he thought that if the worst happened and we all died from bird
flu or some other horrible disaster at least he would know that Simon
and Linnaea had the happiest and most enjoyable life that he could
offer them.

Schuyler

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/25/05 8:42:31 AM, s.waynforth@... writes:


> It's much more satisfying to drop "well, my daughter just
> finished reading the Complete Works of Shakespeare which surprised me
> as she is only 5" in a conversation as everyone will oohh and aahh at
> your little child prodigy.  But if you say "my daughter played nicely
> with another little girl, and was kind to her when she was sad" it
> isn't going to get the same glorified response. 
>

I think it's partly (who maybe wholly) because of our culture's prejudice in
favor of verbal and mathematical to the near exclusion of all else (except
sports and music as *extras* earned by those who are good at language and
numbers, "good" being proven school-style).

Even if the schools were to make a fully equally situation for the jocks,
artists, musicians, dancers and actors... Would they have any way to really
encourage or quanitify or reward interpersonal or intrapersonal intelligence?

There is a reward on its own for those who are popular among others at
school, who can find tactful ways to tiptoe through the minefields of school and
maybe help others along the way. But as a skill all its own in one who is not
also talented in language, math, physical or mathematical ways, it's not given
any credit at all, as far as I can remember or imagine.

A friend of mine married someone who was "not very clever" in his own words,
but he said she was very sweet. She didn't stay as sweet as she could've.
:-/

That was a ramble, not a pointed statement.


-=-What a wonderful moment to watch!  It takes happiness to be able to
give without thinking about it.-=-

If one's not full of happiness it's hard to give it away.

-=-Not that they
don't love their children, but I've been told by a homeschooling
mother that the most important thing she could do for her children was
to make sure that they could be successful, productive adults.-=-

Lots of people. I think there's something to it, but to think of that only
in academic terms is to have a school-at-home overlay even if one doesn't have
lessons on a schedule.

Sandra


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Schuyler Waynforth

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> -=-Not that they
> don't love their children, but I've been told by a homeschooling
> mother that the most important thing she could do for her children was
> to make sure that they could be successful, productive adults.-=-
>
> Lots of people. I think there's something to it, but to think of
that only
> in academic terms is to have a school-at-home overlay even if one
doesn't have
> lessons on a schedule.
>
> Sandra

And to squash their children into the school-at-home academics with
the belief that this will produce successful, productive adults,
instead of squashed children is such a misguided understanding of the
world.

Schuyler

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/25/05 9:17:26 AM, s.waynforth@... writes:


> -=-And to squash their children into the school-at-home academics with
> the belief that this will produce successful, productive adults,
> instead of squashed children is such a misguided understanding of the
> world.-=-
>

Aren't there a lot of people, though, who do fulfill the drone function (if
we were bees)--who seem happy to do the mindless thing in exchange for
security?

Not everyone is equally creative or philosophical or adventurous.

Sandra


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Schuyler Waynforth

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> Not everyone is equally creative or philosophical or adventurous.
>
> Sandra
>
>

Nor is everybody given the opportunity to discover how creative,
philosophical or adventurous they can be when given an environment
that encourages self-expression and self-confidence instead of an
environment that dictates what is appropriate knowledge and what is
useless knowledge, evil knowledge or just plain crap.

I guess I am always suprised by how much people buy into a system even
after they have concluded that it isn't a system that works for their
children.

Schuyler

Schuyler Waynforth

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> Aren't there a lot of people, though, who do fulfill the drone
function (if
> we were bees)--who seem happy to do the mindless thing in exchange for
> security?


The drone is the male bee. So, the guy who does nothing except eat
and wait to see if the queen wants to have sex and when the food gets
low and the egg-laying season is done, starves to death. Possibly a
less secure career move than many parents may be hoping their children
will attain.

Schuyler

elainegh8

Hi
Another brag. Not about academics or doing kind things or anything
like that. My dd aged 9 has just taught herself to make custard from
reading the instructions on the custard powder tin. The kind you have
to mix custard powder with sugar and a bit of the milk, then boil some
milk, mix with the powder in a bowl and then return to simmer in the
pan again.

She's been making custard for herself all week, she made some for us
as well to go with chocolate sponge. She said she felt really proud of
herself as she can make custard and she feels more independent. She
knew what she wanted to do/know and did it.

BWs Elaine

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/25/05 10:54:38 AM, s.waynforth@... writes:


> So, the guy who does nothing except eat
> and wait to see if the queen wants to have sex and when the food gets
> low and the egg-laying season is done, starves to death.  Possibly a
> less secure career move than many parents may be hoping their children
> will attain.
> ============================
>
But if in the longrun he served as a successful bee, without having to think
too much or be criticized for not standing out as an outstanding individual,
he was still a success.

Lots of parents seem to be happy with the idea that they and their children
will simply not rock the boat.

Sandra




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[email protected]

In a message dated 10/25/05 10:36:50 AM, s.waynforth@... writes:


> Nor is everybody given the opportunity to discover how creative,
> philosophical or adventurous they can be when given an environment
> that encourages self-expression and self-confidence instead of an
> environment that dictates what is appropriate knowledge and what is
> useless knowledge, evil knowledge or just plain crap.
>
========================================

Do you really think everyone has a capacity or desire for those kinds of
things?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela

* Someone wrote:
> Nor is everybody given the opportunity to discover how creative,
> philosophical or adventurous they can be when given an environment
> that encourages self-expression and self-confidence instead of an
> environment that dictates what is appropriate knowledge and what is
> useless knowledge, evil knowledge or just plain crap.



And someone else wrote:

* <<Do you really think everyone has a capacity or desire for those
kinds of
things?. >>



Which things are you referring to Sandra, the capacity to be creative,
philosophical, and adventurous?

I don't think everyone has the same capacity as everyone else, but I think
that schools and parents squash what little bit some people have right out
of them. You should see the stories my kids have been writing this week.
Maybe I'll send in a little bit for the list to read, if they don't mind.
(I'll have to ask) Their creativity and writing abilities are amazing and
they have always been unschooled.



Angela





_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler Waynforth

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 10/25/05 10:36:50 AM, s.waynforth@b... writes:
>
>
> > Nor is everybody given the opportunity to discover how creative,
> > philosophical or adventurous they can be when given an environment
> > that encourages self-expression and self-confidence instead of an
> > environment that dictates what is appropriate knowledge and what is
> > useless knowledge, evil knowledge or just plain crap.
> >
> ========================================
>
> Do you really think everyone has a capacity or desire for those
kinds of
> things?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I think I have myopic vision. I believe that because my eyes have
opened to the joys of living and learning if only everyone else would
open their eyes they could experience that as well. But, maybe they
are all the dwarves in C.S. Lewis's The Last Battle who would never
open their eyes to joy prefering to believe the food in front of them
was donkey turds rather than the wonderous bounty that Aslan set in
front of them (and I do appreciate the irony of an atheist using C.S.
Lewis's allegory to demonstrate a similar view). Or maybe you are
right. It could be a lack of capacity or desire. Sigh...how sad.


Have you ever seen the 7 up series? It's a British series created by
Granada television in the 60s. It was begun largely as an examination
of the benefits of certain kinds of education (public versus grammer
versus comprehensive) and the class system. In the end it is a sort
of reality show (the most recent 49 up was aired a little over a month
ago) following the people who were in the first episode in 1963. The
people are fascinating to listen to. They are interesting, some more
than others, and interested in other things. Perhaps because they
were selected at 7 and followed again at 7 year intervals for the next
42 years. Maybe because someone else found them interesting they
became more capable of presenting themselves in interesting ways.
Maybe it is just good editing. Maybe, really, there aren't any people
who want to be lumberjacks working in accounting, but Monty Python let
me dream it so.

Schuyler

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/25/05 1:41:24 PM, s.waynforth@... writes:


> Maybe, really, there aren't any people
> who want to be lumberjacks working in accounting, but Monty Python let
> me dream it so. 
>
>

Maybe there are no lumberjacks who wish they were accountants instead, but I
think accountants have been led to believe that white collar jobs are simply
superior to positions involving physical labor.

-=-I think I have myopic vision.  I believe that because my eyes have
opened to the joys of living and learning if only everyone else would
open their eyes they could experience that as well. -=-

Some unschoolers don't even seem to wan t to do more than they "have to do."


"Do I *have* to do that?"
"You don't *have* to do that to be an unschooler."

I thought when I left school I would get away from people's attempts to do
just the bare minimum required to pass, but it seems the outside world is full
of lots of them too. The receptionist and the girl in the records room at the
clinic where I was yesterday--no compunctions about bullshitting when they
didn't know the real answer. If they won't lose their jobs over wrong answers,
the wrong answers are no real problem.

-=- It could be a lack of capacity or desire.  Sigh...how sad.-=-

Why, though, is it sad for you?
If everyone was as interesting as you are, you'd be average instead of
fascinating. <g>

Jocks sometimes think it's said when someone else isn't as athletic or as
knowledgeable about the trivia of the chosen sport. Why should they be sad?

School-at-homers express sorrow for the poor benighted children of
unschoolers. Why should they be sad?

-=- Which things are you referring to Sandra, the capacity to be creative,
philosophical, and adventurous?
-=-

Yes. Some have more than others.

-=-You should see the stories my kids have been writing this week.
Maybe I'll send in a little bit for the list to read, if they don't mind.-=-

I have no doubt your kids are creative.
You should've seen the stories some kids write who ARE in school!

Not everyone longs to be us, that's all.

Sandra


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