Julie

Hello,

I joined this list while pregnant, and I'm back to reading avidly now that
my son is 5-1/2 months old. I'm finding that much of what you say applies
to life with an infant--strewing, giving him a rich and interesting
environment, communicating respectfully, avoiding coercion, etc.--so thanks!

Lately I've been reading with interest on Sandra's site, particularly about
food issues. Maybe it's because Dmitri is just starting to show some
interest in starting solids. I know my husband and I want to model healthy,
non-controlling attitudes toward food, but we're not there yet. I'm looking
for stories of your experiences deschooling yourselves when it comes to food
issues.

Our particular issue is that my husband and I, at least according to the way
we're perceiving things now, are "addicted" to sugar and white flour. We
are currently in a healthy mode (whole grains/no sugar) and feeling
physically good, but we're only eating this way through a kind of rigid
self-discipline. We both REALLY want "the bad stuff" at times but don't
trust ourselves to have access to it.

So what do we do? Continue on this path of self-denial or stuff a couple of
luscious Ritter dark chocolate marzipan bars into our gaping maws? I'm
treating myself like an adult controlling a child: "All she'll do is eat
candy all day. She'll NEVER eat any kale if I don't make her!" In light of
my past behavior (overconsumption of junk and underconsumption of veggies),
this seems to be true.

Is there any hope for me and dh? I think if we can trust ourselves with
food, we'll certainly be able to trust Dmitri without reservations. Your
tales of how you de-food-schooled yourselves are most welcome.

Thanks,
Julie in NY

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 9, 2005, at 4:48 PM, Julie wrote:

> We
> are currently in a healthy mode (whole grains/no sugar) and feeling
> physically good, but we're only eating this way through a kind of
> rigid
> self-discipline. We both REALLY want "the bad stuff" at times but
> don't
> trust ourselves to have access to it.

It might be worth trying the South Beach Diet. While I found it
easier to not get piggy about snacks if I didn't forbid myself to
have them I still found that answering a craving for a candy bar or
cookies often made me just want more. :-/ And I had a lot of "I want
something but I don't know what I want" feelings.

It's 2 weeks of no carbohydrates then slowly reintroducing them,
choosing whole grains rather than refined so the goal is to eat a
regular diet -- just healthier. Even after a couple days I wasn't
having the "I don't know what I wants," and didn't crave huge plates
of pasta (still don't and I did it 6 months ago). You actually eat a
lot of food and it includes fat so i rarely felt hungry.

I found it very very easy to do online. (http://
www.southbeachdiet.com/index3.asp) They give you a week's worth of
recipes for breakfast, lunch, dinner and snacks -- you can pick other
recipes if you don't like their suggestions for the week but I liked
most of them -- and you can print out a shopping list (that you can
pre-edit to remove the things you already have). They have a recipe
book too that's cheaper than doing it on line but not quite as handy
or nifty. :-)

Joyce




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Julie

Joyce wrote:
<<It might be worth trying the South Beach Diet. >>

Thanks for the suggestion. We're actually vegan too, so going no carbs
might be a bit more deprivation than we can handle!

<< While I found it easier to not get piggy about snacks if I didn't forbid
myself to have them I still found that answering a craving for a candy bar
or cookies often made me just want more. :-/ And I had a lot of "I want
something but I don't know what I want" feelings.>>

Yes, that's just it. I want to find a way to move beyond these food
feelings/patterns. Can some of these kids who throw away their Halloween
candy help me get to this Zen place they're in? :-S

<< It's 2 weeks of no carbohydrates then slowly reintroducing them,
choosing whole grains rather than refined so the goal is to eat a
regular diet -- just healthier. >>

Dh and I have found that the only thing that makes our cravings go away is
to go completely no sugar and to avoid all refined grains. If we have a
tiny bit, we start wanting lots of sugar again.

I was just wondering if it has to be that way. I don't expect Dmitri to
grow up with a ban on sugar or white bread; I have confidence that he'll be
able to self-regulate. But are his parents permanently damaged? I had
hopes that we could also learn to self-regulate with no strict bans as he
starts his journey into eating food along with us. I guess we've still got
time to learn, though. He's still exclusively breastfed! :-)

Julie in NY

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/10/05 4:35:09 PM, julesmiel@... writes:


> -=-Can some of these kids who throw away their Halloween
> candy help me get to this Zen place they're in?  :-S  -=-
>

My kids have no idea how they got there.
I've gotten there myself, pretty much, and mostly by seeing my kids turn
things down. Mostly from seeing my kids and knowing that when asked if they want
food, they make their decisions differently than I did as a kid and as I do
now, so I try to be more like they are.

There is dark chocolate in the drawer of my desk that I bought three weeks
ago. Half is still there.
There's dark chocolate in our bedroom in the drawer under the TV that's been
there since Valentine's day. Not ALL of the package (Dove hearts) but still
some.

Sandra


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Abby Aldrich

--- In [email protected], "Julie" <julesmiel@v...>
wrote:

> Yes, that's just it. I want to find a way to move beyond these food
> feelings/patterns. Can some of these kids who throw away their
Halloween
> candy help me get to this Zen place they're in? :-S

Maybe just saying yes to yourself the way you say yes to your kids
could help. Everybody is different, but I have seen the way my kids'
infatuation with sugary, formerly off-limits food has waned since I
started having it in the house all the time, so I started doing it for
myself. When I was loosening the controls for my kids, I used to
purposely buy things that I didn't crave, but when I saw how well the
un-controlling thing started working with them (choosing Cheerios over
Apple Jacks? That was the clincher for me), I did it for myself. My
big thing is chocolate; I used to eat close to a whole big bag of
Hershey's Kisses in a day whenever I bought them, so I started buying
them all the time and eating them whenever I wanted. At first, I had
to buy a bag every couple of days, but that didn't last long. Now, I
go weeks without having to buy a new bag. I grab a couple whenever I
feel like it and I no longer feel the need to binge on them because I
know I can have them whenever I want. It has worked really well for
me. Granted, it didn't happen overnight, but I just lost 12 pounds
over the course of the last few of months and it's not because I've
been exercising more; it's because I don't have to binge anymore
because there is no
I-don't-know-when-I'll-ever-get-to-eat-this-again-so-I-should-probably-eat-it-all
feeling.

Abby

Robyn Coburn

<<<<< Is there any hope for me and dh? I think if we can trust ourselves
with food, we'll certainly be able to trust Dmitri without reservations.
Your tales of how you de-food-schooled yourselves are most welcome. >>>>

I'm not sure that it is necessary to de-food-school yourself *first* in
order to apply the principle of freedom of choice to one's children.

While pregnant I read a few articles in different types of publications,
about how young children when allowed to choose from a broad range of food
choices would choose a perfectly balanced diet over a period of time such as
a week or a month. I read many stories here on these lists about odd food
preferences turning out temporary and that for *most* of our children good
health was continuing without the parents needing to take charge of their
children's eating. My feeling was and is that I could trust the research of
these observant people whose experience with children was so different from
the emotionally charged "food life" that I had led as a youngster.

Yet *I* am not necessarily able to de-food myself, that I am not always able
to trust my own body to give me cues that are not emotionally laden (eg
comfort eating at times or just not feeling hungry when I am worried about
something). However Jayn suffers from no such issues.

I have observed her eating habits and can make some reasoned predictions
about what she is likely to want, but the original premises - that she was
capable of making choices that worked, that food did not have to be endowed
with emotional loadings (beyond enjoyment), and that, nutritional pyramids
notwithstanding, food need not be sorted into a good/bad hierarchy - these
hold true for Jayn.

It seems like there are a couple of instances mentioned on the list about
children with medical or other issues that impact their ability to listen to
their bodies. Many suggestions have been made in the direction of being
these children's allies rather than taking on the role of enforcer.

Unlike in scientific experiments where one exception disproves the
hypothesis, needing to adapt to these unusual or extreme situations, does
not have to negate the full application of food freedoms in the lives of the
majority.

Robyn L. Coburn






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Betsy Hill

** My kids have no idea how they got there.
I've gotten there myself, pretty much, and mostly by seeing my kids turn
things down. Mostly from seeing my kids and knowing that when asked if
they want
food, they make their decisions differently than I did as a kid and as I do
now, so I try to be more like they are.**

An idea (or buzzphrase) that comes to mind is "having a sense of
abundance", instead of a sense of scarcity.

Betsy

Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley

> I had
> hopes that we could also learn to self-regulate with no strict bans as he
> starts his journey into eating food along with us. I guess we've still got
> time to learn, though. He's still exclusively breastfed! :-)

I've been thinking about this thread for a couple of days now. This
topic was near and dear to my heart when my children were babies. Funny
that I barely even think about it now that my kids are 9 and 5. As a
fellow vegan, I understand about wanting your children to eat healthy
diets. It doesn't sound to me like you need any advice, you are doing
fantastic. However, I'll give a little pep talk and let you know that
what you are doing and what you are planning on doing really works!

Definitely breastfeed as long as your son wants. Let him eat what he
wants, when he wants and always have an open kitchen. Don't force solid
foods into him until he wants them. Basically, take his lead completely.

My daughters have no food issues at all. Their diets are amazingly
healthy. They eat better than I do, by far, naturally. Eating healthy
does not come easily to me due to my upbringing. My daughters were born
with the innate ability to know when they are hungry and to know when
they are full. That was forced out of me. They have no problems
turning down candy when they aren't hungry for it or "meal type" foods
when they don't want them. They don't worry about cleaning their plates
and they don't worry about having to eat it all right then in order to
get it all. They don't worry what time it is. They eat when they are
hungry and they stop when they are full. They have never felt guilt or
deprivation over foods. I'm amazed by them every single day and I try
to live by their example. I learn from them regarding food and eating.

-Lisa in AZ

nellebelle

>>>>>>>I've already removed food restrictions for quite sometime but we all
still have the habit of having dessert AFTER dinner.>>>>>>>>>>>>

How about putting it all out on the table at the same time? (And then bite your tongue when the kids might choose to eat dessert first for awhile!)

Mary Ellen

Eat dessert first. Life is uncertain.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

About dessert, if they're "dessert trained," maybe just let them have it
early if they want it, or first, or concurrent with the other food. Mostly,
don't make them "earn it" by finishing other food or cleaning plates.

http://sandradodd.com/food

I think maybe somewhere in there is the story of our ordering apple pie right
after sitting down at a restaurant, when Marty and Kirby were two and five or
so, and the other adults commenting that now they wouldn't eat any other
food.

Wrong!
And we knew it was wrong. <g>

Pie is something the waiters can get without ordering it from the cooks, and
so the kids had something to do and weren't hungry. When the chicken and
potatoes came, they were happy to eat that too!

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

starwarsmum

> Maybe offer dessert before dinner?

We love the saying "life is uncertain, eat dessert first" and since
we've had to leave the house more than once during dinner due to
emergencies, we're glad to abide by it when we can.

Growing up our favourite breakfast was leftover apple pie the day
after Thanksgiving; my Mum called it 'the breakfast of champions'.

Amy

Robyn Coburn

<<<<< So, my question is, if we've done this and our kids have come to
expect, anticipate and request dessert after dinner every night, how
would you go about remedying this without denying their request? >>>>

I'm interested in hearing why having dessert is a problem for *your family*
that needs to be "remedied".

If everyone is enjoying having dinner and dessert and enjoying being at the
table (if that is how you are currently eating) together, why change what is
working?

I guess I'm confused about what your goal is in seeking suggestions.

If it is just a case of too much work for the chef, there are sweet foods
that don't require much preparation or that kids can get for themselves -
sliced fruits, ice cream sandwiches, popsicles.

<<<< Maybe offer dessert before dinner? >>>>

Why not do so in the spirit of fun and see what happens?

<<<< I've already removed food restrictions for quite sometime but we all
still have the habit of having dessert AFTER dinner. >>>>

Just because something is a habit, it does not necessarily follow that it is
a *bad* habit or harmful.

Are you concerned that your kids are eating too much because they are adding
dessert even though they are full? That could be just not yet enough time
for the certainty of abundance to have taken hold - "quite sometime" is a
variable quantity. ;)

We don't do formal dessert unless we are at Home Town Buffet. Jayn seems to
find it fun to eat a carrot cake or two after enjoying her mac and cheese
and other foods. At home there is no difference between any kind of food - I
make a savory dinner, but sometimes any one of us will be eating a popsicle
or cut fruit or ice cream or lollipop before dinner, or so much later that
it can't count as dessert but as a late supper snack.

I guess insisting that people not have dessert despite desire for it, is
just as problematic in the relationship as insisting that they eat their
main meal before being permitted dessert. I wouldn't recommend either path.

Robyn L. Coburn


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Robyn Coburn

<<<<< I suspect that they often eat it out of some habit and some emotional
attachment to its previous reward value.>>>>

Thank you for explaining. If this is what your heart is telling you, it
seems really likely to be so.

I think the buffet plan is probably a good one. However maybe you could also
think about initiating some other non-food related "end of day"
rewarding/reconnecting ritual that would help fulfill the need that the
dessert currently does. What that ritual might be eludes me, but others may
have some ideas.

<<<<< For many years I've struggled with emotional eating. I used to
reward myself after the
kids were asleep, on another day of intensive mothering under my
belt, by eating a sweet
treat. I think our mainstream food culture promotes this common food
= reward mentality
and I've unwittingly done that to my kids. I want to undo it somehow.>>>>

I agree that the culture does this - especially in the language that women
tend to apply to food (eg I've been "good" today I didn't eat too much) I
try to be observant of my language use. I'd encourage you to be so also -
just in case that reward idea is still permeating your vocabulary
unrecognized.

Robyn L. Coburn

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[email protected]

In a message dated 10/13/2005 12:59:38 AM Central Standard Time,
sandrewmama@... writes:

I suspect that my son sees dessert as some kind of end-of-day, after
dinner, reward.
A reward for what, I don't know, but it is something that he looks
forward to, asks
about frequently while dinner is being prepared and is distressed if
we don't have
anything satisfying to offer as a dessert after dinner. He likes to
bake and help
make sure there are dessert items available.



~~~

Logistical question:

If you make a pie or a layer cake, isn't there enough for more than one
night? I'm just wondering. I'd definitely put the rest out all day.

Wondering about that made me think about this. It's a lot of work to make
pies and cakes and special desserts. Maybe your son sees all that work as
showing your love for him. Maybe he's afraid if you're not willing to do that
kind of work for him, then he's somehow less in your eyes. Maybe he needs
some reassurance that is not the case, that you love him no matter what. The
good news is that if that is the case--if the dessert is tied to YOU doing
something for him--then maybe you could find a way to associate something else to
his measure of your love.

I maybe totally off base, but maybe not. I know my kids like me to do
simple things for them that make them feel loved.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

>>>>>>>>Finding some other ways
to extend that warm, together time beyond dinner time may help
replace the emotional
reward of dessert?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Play a board game or cards?

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> -=- Just because something is a habit, it does not necessarily follow 
> > that it is
> > a *bad* habit or harmful. -=-
>

No, but every unexamined habit is one more area of life that hasn't been
looked at.

If people are going to change the way they live and believe, they might as
well look at everything while they're looking.

If something is being eaten not because a person feels hungry or feels that
that food would satisfy a desire or need, but eaten just because it's time,
because it's there, because they earned it, because someone worked hard to make
it, then that's not the mindful eating that will lead to one really feeling and
listening to one's own body about whether one is hungry, and if so for what
in particular.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

camden

How about a game after dinner or start a chapter book everyone would be
interested in & take turns reading? Maybe in nice weather a walk after
dinner? We've begun watching old cartoons (tonight is Betty Boop ) after
dinner.
Carol

**********************************************


> I think the buffet plan is probably a good one. However maybe you could
> also
> think about initiating some other non-food related "end of day"
> rewarding/reconnecting ritual that would help fulfill the need that the
> dessert currently does. What that ritual might be eludes me, but others
> may
> have some ideas.

Julie

Sandra wrote:
<<Mostly from seeing my kids and knowing that when asked if they want
food, they make their decisions differently than I did as a kid and as I do
now, so I try to be more like they are.>>

I'm glad to know that even if some of my negative food patterns linger, it
won't necessarily compel my son to act likewise around food.

<< There is dark chocolate in the drawer of my desk that I bought three
weeks ago. Half is still there.>>

That's encouraging! I would be likely to eat the rest because I wanted the
temptation to disappear. :-)

Beth wrote:
<< The book Krisula mentioned plus another one, Inutitive Eating, helped me
overcome a lot of what I'd been struggling with. >>

I love that title and will definitely check it out.

Abby wrote:
<< Maybe just saying yes to yourself the way you say yes to your kids
could help. Everybody is different, but I have seen the way my kids'
infatuation with sugary, formerly off-limits food has waned since I
started having it in the house all the time, so I started doing it for
myself. >>

I'm scared of saying yes because it's that old trust issue. I guess I
believe I'm not trustworthy around delicious stuff, and I don't want to
project that attitude around family members. I want to be as healthy as
possible because I'm breastfeeding, so I guess I'm extra afraid to let go
right now.

Robyn L. Coburn wrote:
<<Yet *I* am not necessarily able to de-food myself, that I am not always
able to trust my own body to give me cues that are not emotionally laden (eg
comfort eating at times or just not feeling hungry when I am worried about
something). However Jayn suffers from no such issues.>>

Ah, maybe this is just something that we schooled adults have to continue to
struggle with. So do you control your own food? Is there an inner schooler
making rules for you? Mine barks at me on a regular basis. :-)

Lisa in AZ wrote:
<< My daughters have no food issues at all. Their diets are amazingly
healthy. They eat better than I do, by far, naturally. Eating healthy
does not come easily to me due to my upbringing. My daughters were born
with the innate ability to know when they are hungry and to know when
they are full.>>

Very encouraging! Although I want to overcome my own food issues for my
sake, my most important concern right now is not creating an environment in
which I pass them on to Dmitri. It's very encouraging to hear that as
warped as we parents may be, the kids seem to do fine.

Many thanks for your responses.

Julie in NY

[email protected]

> -=-I would be likely to eat the rest because I wanted the
> temptation to disappear.  :-) -=-
>

See, though, that's a justification for eating.

If you think about whether you really WANT it for physical reasons or if
you're wanting it for psychological reasons (afraid it will be gone, you "deserve"
it, you want the [psychological] temptation to disappear), then you'll start
to learn to feel what you want and need in your body, not what the little
voices in your head are saying.

-=-I'm scared of saying yes because it's that old trust issue.  I guess I
believe I'm not trustworthy around delicious stuff,-=-

You see what saying no does, though, if people said no to you.

If you NEVER did it, your kids would have what's natural, not a bunch of
little messages imbedded in their superego talking to them about food.

If you're doing it now and you want to quit someday... that still does
damage now.
Some of the damage can be undone, but some will stay forever.


-=-It's very encouraging to hear that as
warped as we parents may be, the kids seem to do fine.-=-

Kids will do fine IF you don't repeat the warping parental behavior.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Abby Aldrich

> >I would be likely to eat the rest because I wanted the
> >temptation to disappear. :-)

I used to do that. And when I started letting myself eat the Hershey
kisses (or whatever) whenever I wanted I slowly stopped doing that.
Us old people can really change. ;)

>I'm scared of saying yes because it's that old trust issue. I guess
>I >believe I'm not trustworthy around delicious stuff

Right, it does come down to trust just like it does with our kids. We
start trusting them, but our own mother's lack of trust in *us* is
still ruling the way *we* eat. Saying no to myself was only making me
put those foods up on a pedestal where I would constantly think about
them and want them and then have an all-out binge in a moment of
perceived weakness. Oh, and then the guilt. That was fun.

Saying yes to myself the way I did with my kids changed everything.
Scary, yes, but absolutely life changing.

Abby

Robyn Coburn

<<<<<< Robyn L. Coburn wrote:
<<Yet *I* am not necessarily able to de-food myself, that I am not always
able to trust my own body to give me cues that are not emotionally laden (eg
comfort eating at times or just not feeling hungry when I am worried about
something). However Jayn suffers from no such issues.>>

Ah, maybe this is just something that we schooled adults have to continue to
struggle with. So do you control your own food? Is there an inner schooler
making rules for you? Mine barks at me on a regular basis. :-)>>>>>

I eat what I enjoy, which is a wide variety. I try to listen to "what do I
feel like?" I avoid dairy because of lactose intolerance (I miss pizza and
cream sauces but not much), and super spicy food because it'll give me
heartburn. I just don't stuff myself. When PMS'ing, I crave chocolate or
meringues. I give in to those cravings. I have renounced any form of calorie
counting, or narrow definitions of diets (caveat: when I was pregnant I
followed Bradley). I like almost all fruits, and rice and sushi. I never
think of salads, unless reminded, but I always enjoy them when they're in
front of me. I'm a big sandwich consumer - as in sliced bread, not burgers.

If I get hungry I tend to notice heartburn or sudden grazing as cues, before
any sense of emptiness these days. If I am cranky, I think about when I last
ate and take steps appropriately. I went back to my pre-pregnancy weight
within 6 months with no particular effort, and have not changed my weight or
size since. I usually drink water ahead of other beverages. I drink coffee
and green tea. I don't drink alcohol.

I was a 15 year vegetarian until 5 years ago. When I reinstituted meat I
expected to notice some difference in my health. I didn't, with the
exception of becoming lactose intolerant a couple of years later, something
that would have caused me some problems of variety if I were still vegie.
Cheese particularly had been a major feature of my diet while vegetarian. My
doctor said "take calcium" and recommended the soft chew kind which I take
daily. When I remember I take a multivitamin and extra Folic acid, just in
case.

I'm not a very good cook, as I finally had to admit. For years I thought of
my cooking as quirky but delicious. Eventually I learnt to my dismay that
*I* was the only person who actually liked my thrown together odd
concoctions. Now I stick to really simple cooking for my family, or
carefully following a recipe. I enjoy baking, and will make muffins or
something like that if I need to take something for a crowd - but I don't
fool around with the recipes because that leads to disasters. I stick to
tried and true most of time.

Hope that answers the query OK.

Robyn L. Coburn



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