salon.com
Cally Brown
Suzanne LaPierre
Just make sure you have Norton disabled or set to allow the link. I had
to jump through hoops to read it.
Suzanne
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cally Brown
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] salon.com
article about unschooling
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/10/03/unschool/index.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to jump through hoops to read it.
Suzanne
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cally Brown
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] salon.com
article about unschooling
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/10/03/unschool/index.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
Interesting, but doesn't seem to understand what unschooling really means. It certainly is NOT leaving kids on their own!
"Indeed, given the temptations and distractions of everyday life, is it unreasonable to wonder how much kids can really learn when just left up to their own devices? Conventional wisdom tells us that when not compelled to study the basics of reading and writing and arithmetic, the average kid will fritter away the day playing video games and flipping TV stations. And while unschoolers argue that that is an unfairly pessimistic take on children's curiosity and innate abilities, it would be hard for them to deny that their approach can lead to the acquisition of idiosyncratic skills. When she went off to her freshman year in college, Laurie Chancey was already a gifted computer programmer -- but struggled to get through a class in remedial math."
Never mind that many school children struggle with math and few are gifted computer programmers.
I like the end quote: "I mean, at some point, people stop asking what grade you're in."
As I'm not a member of salon.com, I had to click on an advertisement in order to read the complete article. I didn't have to watch the ad, I just had to wait until it was over.
Mary Ellen
"Indeed, given the temptations and distractions of everyday life, is it unreasonable to wonder how much kids can really learn when just left up to their own devices? Conventional wisdom tells us that when not compelled to study the basics of reading and writing and arithmetic, the average kid will fritter away the day playing video games and flipping TV stations. And while unschoolers argue that that is an unfairly pessimistic take on children's curiosity and innate abilities, it would be hard for them to deny that their approach can lead to the acquisition of idiosyncratic skills. When she went off to her freshman year in college, Laurie Chancey was already a gifted computer programmer -- but struggled to get through a class in remedial math."
Never mind that many school children struggle with math and few are gifted computer programmers.
I like the end quote: "I mean, at some point, people stop asking what grade you're in."
As I'm not a member of salon.com, I had to click on an advertisement in order to read the complete article. I didn't have to watch the ad, I just had to wait until it was over.
Mary Ellen
----- Original Message -----
article about unschooling
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/10/03/unschool/index.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
>>>>>>>>>I hadto jump through hoops to read it.>>>>>>>>>>
OK, but what did you think about it?
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Manisha Kher
Somebody posted the entire article on another list
that I'm on. I thought it was surprisingly positive.
Maybe I'm being cynical, but most of the article on
homeschooling that I've seen have had a more negative
slant than this.
The criticisms are interesting because they help me
clarify my goals. For example,
"And while unschoolers argue that that is an unfairly
pessimistic take on children's curiosity and innate
abilities, it would be hard for them to deny that
their approach can lead to the acquisition of
idiosyncratic skills."
What is wrong with idiosyncratic skills? Do we want
cookie-cutter education for everyone? I don't think
so. I see this as an advantage, rather than a
disadavantage of unschooling.
I think it's infinitely better to take a year of
remdial math instead of 12 years of boredom.
Manisha
--- nellebelle <nellebelle@...> wrote:
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
that I'm on. I thought it was surprisingly positive.
Maybe I'm being cynical, but most of the article on
homeschooling that I've seen have had a more negative
slant than this.
The criticisms are interesting because they help me
clarify my goals. For example,
"And while unschoolers argue that that is an unfairly
pessimistic take on children's curiosity and innate
abilities, it would be hard for them to deny that
their approach can lead to the acquisition of
idiosyncratic skills."
What is wrong with idiosyncratic skills? Do we want
cookie-cutter education for everyone? I don't think
so. I see this as an advantage, rather than a
disadavantage of unschooling.
I think it's infinitely better to take a year of
remdial math instead of 12 years of boredom.
Manisha
--- nellebelle <nellebelle@...> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>I had__________________________________
> to jump through hoops to read it.>>>>>>>>>>
>
> OK, but what did you think about it?
>
> Mary Ellen
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
[email protected]
I was interviewed for over an hour by someone who had been spending LOTS of
time with an unschooling family. I expected the article to be more glowing.
It was "balanced" in a way that seemed lame to me.
Had I not talked to her for so long, I might've thought it positive. Maybe
she submitted all her stuff and another person (editor or another writer) did
the "balancing."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
time with an unschooling family. I expected the article to be more glowing.
It was "balanced" in a way that seemed lame to me.
Had I not talked to her for so long, I might've thought it positive. Maybe
she submitted all her stuff and another person (editor or another writer) did
the "balancing."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/4/2005 11:35:41 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
nellebelle@... writes:
OK, but what did you think about it?
=============
I think
not worth jumping through hoops for.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle@... writes:
>>>>>>>>>I hadto jump through hoops to read it.>>>>>>>>>>
OK, but what did you think about it?
=============
I think
not worth jumping through hoops for.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
Sandra, I wanted to let you know that I read your response to the
slander and appreciated the fact that you took "whoever" to task for
misrepresenting your family's experience. I have really appreciated
the honest and personal look inside your lives that helps me to be
brave about unschooling.
One small idea popped into my head as I read it and I thought I'd pass
it along to you (since I'm pretty sure the idea originated with one or
other of your posts anyway). The way this person chose to represent
you was based entirely on a belief that the measurements of the school
system are an accurate reflection of the vaidlity of unschooling. She
thought that if your son *had* been in remedial classes, that fact
somehow invalidated unschooling as an adequate choice for your kids'
education.
Yet what I have had to get over personally is the idea that good
grades in a classroom is what successful home education is all about.
You were right to give her the facts of Kirby's success, but I wanted
to shout at her as well: Remedial classes don't "prove" that
unschooling is a bad option for home education.
Rather, what makes me continue in this lifestyle is the awareness I
have of the privilege it is to be with my kids, to be their friend, to
help them become the people they ought to be... kind, caring,
compassionate, curious, enthusiastic, attentive, and competent in the
arenas that matter to them.
I have one who is not ready for college taking a college course! It's
tough for him, but his interest holds him there. The rest of the
students in class groan every week... he bounds in like a puppy and
leaves energized and full of good thoughts and ideas. He is behind in
the work and isn't good at the self-discipline yet. But he loves learning.
So what does that mean?
It means to me that he is still in control of his life... figuring out
what matters enough to stick to it and grow, not numb to the
opportunity but thoroughly conditioned to perform anyway.
I guess what I'm saying is that I have appreciated all the times
you've refocused the discussion on the quality of life that
unschooling affords... while we're living it... that the goal isn't to
outperform our friends' schooled peers, but to create an individual
family environment where each person is loved, attended to and
stimulated to become who he or she is meant to be.
Thanks Sandra.
Julie B
slander and appreciated the fact that you took "whoever" to task for
misrepresenting your family's experience. I have really appreciated
the honest and personal look inside your lives that helps me to be
brave about unschooling.
One small idea popped into my head as I read it and I thought I'd pass
it along to you (since I'm pretty sure the idea originated with one or
other of your posts anyway). The way this person chose to represent
you was based entirely on a belief that the measurements of the school
system are an accurate reflection of the vaidlity of unschooling. She
thought that if your son *had* been in remedial classes, that fact
somehow invalidated unschooling as an adequate choice for your kids'
education.
Yet what I have had to get over personally is the idea that good
grades in a classroom is what successful home education is all about.
You were right to give her the facts of Kirby's success, but I wanted
to shout at her as well: Remedial classes don't "prove" that
unschooling is a bad option for home education.
Rather, what makes me continue in this lifestyle is the awareness I
have of the privilege it is to be with my kids, to be their friend, to
help them become the people they ought to be... kind, caring,
compassionate, curious, enthusiastic, attentive, and competent in the
arenas that matter to them.
I have one who is not ready for college taking a college course! It's
tough for him, but his interest holds him there. The rest of the
students in class groan every week... he bounds in like a puppy and
leaves energized and full of good thoughts and ideas. He is behind in
the work and isn't good at the self-discipline yet. But he loves learning.
So what does that mean?
It means to me that he is still in control of his life... figuring out
what matters enough to stick to it and grow, not numb to the
opportunity but thoroughly conditioned to perform anyway.
I guess what I'm saying is that I have appreciated all the times
you've refocused the discussion on the quality of life that
unschooling affords... while we're living it... that the goal isn't to
outperform our friends' schooled peers, but to create an individual
family environment where each person is loved, attended to and
stimulated to become who he or she is meant to be.
Thanks Sandra.
Julie B
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/4/2005 11:50:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
nellebelle@... writes:
over-the-top. I didn't read "leaving kids on their own"-which to me, means
"alone". "Left to their own devices" is twisting the "child led learning" aspect of
it, but again, general public... They DID let the unschoolers have their say
to clarify...
Conventional wisdom tells us that when not compelled to study the basics of
reading and writing and arithmetic, the average kid will fritter away the day
playing video games and flipping TV stations.
Personally, for me, "the average kid" is a B&MS kid, who's parents, teachers,
family members, etc. see video games and t.v. as evil/bad and something that
IS "frittering away"-to be limited. From my perspective, unschooled kids are
shown how to learn from t.v. and video games-make the most of the media-hence,
they're NOT "the average kid" and so it just doesn't apply.
I liked that quote, too.
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle@... writes:
> Interesting, but doesn't seem to understand what unschooling really means.No, but a pretty good take for "the general public"-not too attacking and
> It certainly is NOT leaving kids on their own!
>
over-the-top. I didn't read "leaving kids on their own"-which to me, means
"alone". "Left to their own devices" is twisting the "child led learning" aspect of
it, but again, general public... They DID let the unschoolers have their say
to clarify...
Conventional wisdom tells us that when not compelled to study the basics of
reading and writing and arithmetic, the average kid will fritter away the day
playing video games and flipping TV stations.
Personally, for me, "the average kid" is a B&MS kid, who's parents, teachers,
family members, etc. see video games and t.v. as evil/bad and something that
IS "frittering away"-to be limited. From my perspective, unschooled kids are
shown how to learn from t.v. and video games-make the most of the media-hence,
they're NOT "the average kid" and so it just doesn't apply.
I liked that quote, too.
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/4/2005 11:57:04 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
julie@... writes:
-=-I have one who is not ready for college taking a college course! It's
tough for him, but his interest holds him there. The rest of the
students in class groan every week... he bounds in like a puppy and
leaves energized and full of good thoughts and ideas. He is behind in
the work and isn't good at the self-discipline yet. But he loves learning.-=-
That's how it was with Kirby, except he did the homework faithfully. He
bounded into class, and he bounded home to do homework. And although he didn't
like the frustration at first, he found people to help him because he KNEW
already that it can help to hear explanations from more than one source.
Teachers often discourage that, and try to make themselves the sole source.
For all those kids who HAD gone to public school, it was a remedial math
class. For Kirby, it was a first-ever math class, and he didn't test in at the
bottom level. THAT is the point I was trying to make. For Kirby, it wasn't
remedial. <g> It was not for college credit, but having aced that one he can
take 120. Some who were in his class still have to take one more class
before they can take 120.
So in review. . . <g> Some who went to school for 13 years have to take two
or three pre-credit classes. Kirby without a single math lesson in 18 years
took one of them.
Thanks for the kind words. I was stunned that she would resort fo flat-out
LYING to discredit me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
-=-I have one who is not ready for college taking a college course! It's
tough for him, but his interest holds him there. The rest of the
students in class groan every week... he bounds in like a puppy and
leaves energized and full of good thoughts and ideas. He is behind in
the work and isn't good at the self-discipline yet. But he loves learning.-=-
That's how it was with Kirby, except he did the homework faithfully. He
bounded into class, and he bounded home to do homework. And although he didn't
like the frustration at first, he found people to help him because he KNEW
already that it can help to hear explanations from more than one source.
Teachers often discourage that, and try to make themselves the sole source.
For all those kids who HAD gone to public school, it was a remedial math
class. For Kirby, it was a first-ever math class, and he didn't test in at the
bottom level. THAT is the point I was trying to make. For Kirby, it wasn't
remedial. <g> It was not for college credit, but having aced that one he can
take 120. Some who were in his class still have to take one more class
before they can take 120.
So in review. . . <g> Some who went to school for 13 years have to take two
or three pre-credit classes. Kirby without a single math lesson in 18 years
took one of them.
Thanks for the kind words. I was stunned that she would resort fo flat-out
LYING to discredit me.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
averyschmidt
> The way this person chose to representschool
> you was based entirely on a belief that the measurements of the
> system are an accurate reflection of the vaidlity of unschooling. SheIf memory serves, the same person not long ago made a comment about
> thought that if your son *had* been in remedial classes, that fact
> somehow invalidated unschooling as an adequate choice for your kids'
> education.
how if doing "fair" in a remedial college class was her goal for her
child she'd just send her (him?) to school. It stands out in my
memory because I thought it was such an interesting thing to say on an
unschooling list.
I don't think she's alone in being stuck on the idea that flourishing
in a school setting is the obvious end result of "successful"
unschooling.
Patti
Deb Lewis
***I was stunned that she would resort to flat-out
LYING to discredit me.***
If her goal is to discredit you - and from what I've read of her
writings, this bit and others, that *is* her goal, she has to lie because
there would be no other way to accomplish her goal.
The truth of your life and the lives of your kids is out there for
everyone to see. Lots of people have met you and have met your kids.
Lots of people know you're telling the truth because they have talked to
your kids. Lots of people have been helped by your unschooling advice
and example and there is no way to discredit that.
Deb L
LYING to discredit me.***
If her goal is to discredit you - and from what I've read of her
writings, this bit and others, that *is* her goal, she has to lie because
there would be no other way to accomplish her goal.
The truth of your life and the lives of your kids is out there for
everyone to see. Lots of people have met you and have met your kids.
Lots of people know you're telling the truth because they have talked to
your kids. Lots of people have been helped by your unschooling advice
and example and there is no way to discredit that.
Deb L
averyschmidt
> If her goal is to discredit you - and from what I've read of herbecause
> writings, this bit and others, that *is* her goal, she has to lie
> there would be no other way to accomplish her goal.It's definitely her goal.
She's able to turn just about any topic into an opportunity to trash
you, Sandra. It's fascinating in a traffic accident sort of way, but
the bit about Kirby was WAY over the line.
Patti
k
Overall I saw some good things in this article about unschooling by
unschoolers. I did find the following remark to be rather incensing
and
ridiculously hilarious at the same time:
Gail Paquette, a home-schooling mother of two and the founder of the
Web
site Hometaught.com(http://www.hometaught.com/), is one of
unschooling's
most vocal critics. "A child-led approach may develop the child's
strengths but does nothing to develop his weaknesses and broaden his
horizons," she writes. "I [mostly] disagree with the premise that
children can teach themselves what they want to learn, when (and if)
they want to learn it. Certainly children do learn some things on their
own, but their often roundabout way of going at learning is not
necessarily the best way."
The phrase "develop his weaknesses" really stuck out. Why would anyone
want to do that? Sounds like this metaphor has children being log
houses that lack chinking for the gaps in their development. I don't
think you need to be well-rounded or fill every space to be successful.
For so many people, it's not even a possibility. It's just
homogenization. It would also seem to me that it's schooled children
whose horizons are narrow, not the other way around. School, as most
of
us know who've experienced it, is nothing but an endless round of rote
assignments from highly censored textbooks. It wasn't until we
graduated or left school that we had more opportunity as adults to fill
in the gaps that were curious blank at school. If I drummed up the
courage to ask questions, I knew the ones I asked had to be properly
phrased and filtered if I were to expect approval or to be taken
seriously. In other words, I knew better than to ask too many real
questions, ie., ones I wanted the answers to.
Kathe
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
unschoolers. I did find the following remark to be rather incensing
and
ridiculously hilarious at the same time:
Gail Paquette, a home-schooling mother of two and the founder of the
Web
site Hometaught.com(http://www.hometaught.com/), is one of
unschooling's
most vocal critics. "A child-led approach may develop the child's
strengths but does nothing to develop his weaknesses and broaden his
horizons," she writes. "I [mostly] disagree with the premise that
children can teach themselves what they want to learn, when (and if)
they want to learn it. Certainly children do learn some things on their
own, but their often roundabout way of going at learning is not
necessarily the best way."
The phrase "develop his weaknesses" really stuck out. Why would anyone
want to do that? Sounds like this metaphor has children being log
houses that lack chinking for the gaps in their development. I don't
think you need to be well-rounded or fill every space to be successful.
For so many people, it's not even a possibility. It's just
homogenization. It would also seem to me that it's schooled children
whose horizons are narrow, not the other way around. School, as most
of
us know who've experienced it, is nothing but an endless round of rote
assignments from highly censored textbooks. It wasn't until we
graduated or left school that we had more opportunity as adults to fill
in the gaps that were curious blank at school. If I drummed up the
courage to ask questions, I knew the ones I asked had to be properly
phrased and filtered if I were to expect approval or to be taken
seriously. In other words, I knew better than to ask too many real
questions, ie., ones I wanted the answers to.
Kathe
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
Angela
<<The phrase "develop his weaknesses" really stuck out. Why would anyone
want to do that>>
I would guess that the author meant that if Johnny has a hard time with
spelling, that he isn't going to put the effort in to learn to spell on his
own. She doesn't understand how strong a drive can be to perfect something
for some intrinsic reason instead of an extrinsic motivator. I think she
thinks that if something is hard, then kids won't do it. I have not found
that with my own children. When they decide something is important to them,
no matter how hard it is, they find a way to learn/do what it is they need
to know/want to do. It won't be on the parent's time table, but on the
kids. Maybe she's never been patient enough to wait and see her child learn
something from his own initiative.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
--
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want to do that>>
I would guess that the author meant that if Johnny has a hard time with
spelling, that he isn't going to put the effort in to learn to spell on his
own. She doesn't understand how strong a drive can be to perfect something
for some intrinsic reason instead of an extrinsic motivator. I think she
thinks that if something is hard, then kids won't do it. I have not found
that with my own children. When they decide something is important to them,
no matter how hard it is, they find a way to learn/do what it is they need
to know/want to do. It won't be on the parent's time table, but on the
kids. Maybe she's never been patient enough to wait and see her child learn
something from his own initiative.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.11/121 - Release Date: 10/6/2005
Betsy Hill
**
She doesn't understand how strong a drive can be to perfect something
for some intrinsic reason instead of an extrinsic motivator. I think she
thinks that if something is hard, then kids won't do it. I have not found
that with my own children. When they decide something is important to them,
no matter how hard it is, they find a way to learn/do what it is they need
to know/want to do. It won't be on the parent's time table, but on the
kids. Maybe she's never been patient enough to wait and see her child learn
something from his own initiative. **
We had a park day discussion related to this this week.
A kid who hates to make mistakes will learn almost sureptitiously, and possibly on a "delayed" timetable, and won't show progress (or maybe even visible effort) until the task is mastered. This can give the impression that the child isn't "working", but the child probably is working internally.
An example: a friend's one year old fell down the first time she tried to walk, so she avoided walking without something to hold on to (like a parent's hands) for several weeks, and then she took off running.
Betsy
She doesn't understand how strong a drive can be to perfect something
for some intrinsic reason instead of an extrinsic motivator. I think she
thinks that if something is hard, then kids won't do it. I have not found
that with my own children. When they decide something is important to them,
no matter how hard it is, they find a way to learn/do what it is they need
to know/want to do. It won't be on the parent's time table, but on the
kids. Maybe she's never been patient enough to wait and see her child learn
something from his own initiative. **
We had a park day discussion related to this this week.
A kid who hates to make mistakes will learn almost sureptitiously, and possibly on a "delayed" timetable, and won't show progress (or maybe even visible effort) until the task is mastered. This can give the impression that the child isn't "working", but the child probably is working internally.
An example: a friend's one year old fell down the first time she tried to walk, so she avoided walking without something to hold on to (like a parent's hands) for several weeks, and then she took off running.
Betsy