clinging to schoolishness
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/28/05 6:35:55 AM, rjpbenson@... writes:
If you want to unschool, you will need to let go of some of your ideas.
Also, blaming your husband isn't fair. You just perpetuate antagonism.
If you had bought something the kids were allergic to, would it seem a better
use of funds to have them eat all the rest anyway rather than just put it in
the trash?
-=- Yes, I know, the kids are more important than cash, but it's hard to
justify (to my husband) spending additional money on math stuff when we spent a
small fortune on the Saxon.-=-
Pam was suggesting that IF you were going to use math materials, Saxon wasn't
a good choice.
You don't need to be "spending additional money" on math stuff.
Using it because you paid for it is not anything LIKE unschooling.
-=-My husband grumbles and groans about the costs of homeschooling as it
is. -=-
This is not an unschooling topic. Unschooling isn't free, but it's not "a
cost of homeschooling" situation.
-=- HA! Not only did we have all sorts of stuff we had to pay for when the
kids went to ps, but the emotional cost was indescribeable, but he just
doesn't get it. Yet.-=-
Remind him. A museum membership is less than "school clothes" bought once.
A toy or video is the cost of a backpack (which might be lost or stolen).
The emotional cost was high.
You can do that kind of damage at home, though, if you aren't careful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> but I had all the Saxon stuff here at the house and I hated not to use when=====================
> it cost so much money.
>
If you want to unschool, you will need to let go of some of your ideas.
Also, blaming your husband isn't fair. You just perpetuate antagonism.
If you had bought something the kids were allergic to, would it seem a better
use of funds to have them eat all the rest anyway rather than just put it in
the trash?
-=- Yes, I know, the kids are more important than cash, but it's hard to
justify (to my husband) spending additional money on math stuff when we spent a
small fortune on the Saxon.-=-
Pam was suggesting that IF you were going to use math materials, Saxon wasn't
a good choice.
You don't need to be "spending additional money" on math stuff.
Using it because you paid for it is not anything LIKE unschooling.
-=-My husband grumbles and groans about the costs of homeschooling as it
is. -=-
This is not an unschooling topic. Unschooling isn't free, but it's not "a
cost of homeschooling" situation.
-=- HA! Not only did we have all sorts of stuff we had to pay for when the
kids went to ps, but the emotional cost was indescribeable, but he just
doesn't get it. Yet.-=-
Remind him. A museum membership is less than "school clothes" bought once.
A toy or video is the cost of a backpack (which might be lost or stolen).
The emotional cost was high.
You can do that kind of damage at home, though, if you aren't careful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca Benson
You know, I just deleted the message I was about to send because as I read it I realized that for the most part all I was doing was defending myself...and I don't want to defend old belief systems and actions that I'm trying to get rid of. I pulled out the deschooling article you wrote and this is it, I'm just going to take the plunge. My husband may not agree with unschooling, but ultimately, when all is said and done, he trusts me and trusts that I will do what is best for our children.
I'm not going to tell the boys, "Guess what!? No more lessons!" But I'm just going to quietly let them drop away. The other aspects of an unschooling lifestyle will take a little longer, but it just dawned on me that I have less than five years left with my 13-year-old before he's no longer of "school" age and I don't want to waste that time forcing vocabulary lessons down his throat.
Pam and Sandra, thanks for helping me to finally jump in instead of dipping my toes in the unschooling waters.
Rebecca
SandraDodd@... wrote:
If you want to unschool, you will need to let go of some of your ideas.
Also, blaming your husband isn't fair. You just perpetuate antagonism.
If you had bought something the kids were allergic to, would it seem a better
use of funds to have them eat all the rest anyway rather than just put it in
the trash?
-=- Yes, I know, the kids are more important than cash, but it's hard to
justify (to my husband) spending additional money on math stuff when we spent a
small fortune on the Saxon.-=-
Pam was suggesting that IF you were going to use math materials, Saxon wasn't
a good choice.
You don't need to be "spending additional money" on math stuff.
Using it because you paid for it is not anything LIKE unschooling.
-=-My husband grumbles and groans about the costs of homeschooling as it
is. -=-
This is not an unschooling topic. Unschooling isn't free, but it's not "a
cost of homeschooling" situation.
-=- HA! Not only did we have all sorts of stuff we had to pay for when the
kids went to ps, but the emotional cost was indescribeable, but he just
doesn't get it. Yet.-=-
Remind him. A museum membership is less than "school clothes" bought once.
A toy or video is the cost of a backpack (which might be lost or stolen).
The emotional cost was high.
You can do that kind of damage at home, though, if you aren't careful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm not going to tell the boys, "Guess what!? No more lessons!" But I'm just going to quietly let them drop away. The other aspects of an unschooling lifestyle will take a little longer, but it just dawned on me that I have less than five years left with my 13-year-old before he's no longer of "school" age and I don't want to waste that time forcing vocabulary lessons down his throat.
Pam and Sandra, thanks for helping me to finally jump in instead of dipping my toes in the unschooling waters.
Rebecca
SandraDodd@... wrote:
If you want to unschool, you will need to let go of some of your ideas.
Also, blaming your husband isn't fair. You just perpetuate antagonism.
If you had bought something the kids were allergic to, would it seem a better
use of funds to have them eat all the rest anyway rather than just put it in
the trash?
-=- Yes, I know, the kids are more important than cash, but it's hard to
justify (to my husband) spending additional money on math stuff when we spent a
small fortune on the Saxon.-=-
Pam was suggesting that IF you were going to use math materials, Saxon wasn't
a good choice.
You don't need to be "spending additional money" on math stuff.
Using it because you paid for it is not anything LIKE unschooling.
-=-My husband grumbles and groans about the costs of homeschooling as it
is. -=-
This is not an unschooling topic. Unschooling isn't free, but it's not "a
cost of homeschooling" situation.
-=- HA! Not only did we have all sorts of stuff we had to pay for when the
kids went to ps, but the emotional cost was indescribeable, but he just
doesn't get it. Yet.-=-
Remind him. A museum membership is less than "school clothes" bought once.
A toy or video is the cost of a backpack (which might be lost or stolen).
The emotional cost was high.
You can do that kind of damage at home, though, if you aren't careful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
**I pulled out the deschooling article you wrote and this is it, I'm
just going to take the plunge. My husband may not agree with
unschooling, but ultimately, when all is said and done, he trusts me and
trusts that I will do what is best for our children.**
Good!
**I have less than five years left with my 13-year-old before he's no
longer of "school" age and I don't want to waste that time forcing
vocabulary lessons down his throat. **
Yeah. My only child is 11, but I'm already counting on my fingers and
realizing that he's not going to be a child in my house forever and so
I'm trying to squeeze more enjoyment into the years we have left.
To me, vocabulary lessons seem especially unnecessary. Having a
sparkling adult vocabulary is where my son excells (probably because he
has two doting adults to talk to frequently), even though there's very
little in my house that looks like a textbook or a lesson. It's pretty
hard to get through the day without hearing a lot of words, unless you
hold your hands over your ears and sing "la la la -- not listening" <g>.
(Even "spelling" has entered our lives, to facilitate playing World of
Warcraft.)
Betsy
just going to take the plunge. My husband may not agree with
unschooling, but ultimately, when all is said and done, he trusts me and
trusts that I will do what is best for our children.**
Good!
**I have less than five years left with my 13-year-old before he's no
longer of "school" age and I don't want to waste that time forcing
vocabulary lessons down his throat. **
Yeah. My only child is 11, but I'm already counting on my fingers and
realizing that he's not going to be a child in my house forever and so
I'm trying to squeeze more enjoyment into the years we have left.
To me, vocabulary lessons seem especially unnecessary. Having a
sparkling adult vocabulary is where my son excells (probably because he
has two doting adults to talk to frequently), even though there's very
little in my house that looks like a textbook or a lesson. It's pretty
hard to get through the day without hearing a lot of words, unless you
hold your hands over your ears and sing "la la la -- not listening" <g>.
(Even "spelling" has entered our lives, to facilitate playing World of
Warcraft.)
Betsy
Pamela Sorooshian
Rebecca - I'm tingly with excitement for you! AND for your lucky kids
with such a wonderful mom!
-pam
with such a wonderful mom!
-pam
On Sep 29, 2005, at 6:17 AM, Rebecca Benson wrote:
> I'm not going to tell the boys, "Guess what!? No more lessons!"
> But I'm just going to quietly let them drop away. The other
> aspects of an unschooling lifestyle will take a little longer, but
> it just dawned on me that I have less than five years left with my
> 13-year-old before he's no longer of "school" age and I don't want
> to waste that time forcing vocabulary lessons down his throat.
>
> Pam and Sandra, thanks for helping me to finally jump in instead of
> dipping my toes in the unschooling waters.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Krisula Moyer
>> I pulled out the deschooling article you wrote and this is it, I'm justgoing to take the plunge.<<
Hooray! I'm very happy for you.
As for the Saxon, if it's in good shape you can sell it to a family that
hasn't come to unschooling. They'll be happy to get a good deal and you can
recoop some of your costs and spend it on something your kids would like
instead.
Have a great adventure.
Krisula
Rebecca Benson
My 13yo hated the spelling books we were using so I thought that I would kill two birds with one stone by having him study the vocabulary words and learn how to spell them at the same time. That's actually the biggest problem is that his spelling is so horrible. Yesterday his 9yo brother asked him how to spell "peace" and Logan told him it was spelled p-i-e-a-s-e. It makes me cringe because I just think that it looks bad when something is misspelled, even though I'm not the world's greatest speller.
He knows how to use a dictionary and I tell him how to spell words if he asks, but he just doesn't seem to care if he spells something wrong...he tells me that's what Spell Check is for. I did point out that a lot of things aren't written on a computer, but he's just not interested right now, so I'm just going to drop it. I mean, it's not as though it was working to have a structured program, so now I'm going to do it the way that I want to do it...unschooling:-)
Rebecca
Betsy Hill <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
To me, vocabulary lessons seem especially unnecessary. Having a sparkling adult vocabulary is where my son excells (probably because he has two doting adults to talk to frequently), even though there's very little in my house that looks like a textbook or a lesson. It's pretty hard to get through the day without hearing a lot of words, unless you
hold your hands over your ears and sing "la la la -- not listening" <g>.
(Even "spelling" has entered our lives, to facilitate playing World of
Warcraft.)
Betsy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He knows how to use a dictionary and I tell him how to spell words if he asks, but he just doesn't seem to care if he spells something wrong...he tells me that's what Spell Check is for. I did point out that a lot of things aren't written on a computer, but he's just not interested right now, so I'm just going to drop it. I mean, it's not as though it was working to have a structured program, so now I'm going to do it the way that I want to do it...unschooling:-)
Rebecca
Betsy Hill <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
To me, vocabulary lessons seem especially unnecessary. Having a sparkling adult vocabulary is where my son excells (probably because he has two doting adults to talk to frequently), even though there's very little in my house that looks like a textbook or a lesson. It's pretty hard to get through the day without hearing a lot of words, unless you
hold your hands over your ears and sing "la la la -- not listening" <g>.
(Even "spelling" has entered our lives, to facilitate playing World of
Warcraft.)
Betsy
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Sep 30, 2005, at 11:08 PM, Rebecca Benson wrote:
likely it was counterproductive, for various reasons.
If it isn't bothering him that his spelling is not very good, then
I'd just let it completely go - no reaction, help when asked, ignore
otherwise.
If you can read it out of his sight, so he doesn't get the feeling
you think there is something wrong with him, you might get some
useful insight and some ways to give him some practical help from
this book:
My Kid Can't Spell : Understanding and Assisting Your Child's
Literacy Development by J. Richard Gentry.
Spelling isn't very important these days - which is nice for those
people whose brains just don't seem to be built for spelling well.
My 14 yo was a very poor speller - it bothered her quite a bit a
couple of years ago, but then she started IMing with friends, online,
a LOT. Over time she got better and better and now she's pretty good
at it. No lessons.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> he tells me that's what Spell Check is for. I did point out that aGood point that the structured program wasn't working anyway. Very
> lot of things aren't written on a computer, but he's just not
> interested right now, so I'm just going to drop it. I mean, it's
> not as though it was working to have a structured program, so now
> I'm going to do it the way that I want to do it...unschooling:-)
likely it was counterproductive, for various reasons.
If it isn't bothering him that his spelling is not very good, then
I'd just let it completely go - no reaction, help when asked, ignore
otherwise.
If you can read it out of his sight, so he doesn't get the feeling
you think there is something wrong with him, you might get some
useful insight and some ways to give him some practical help from
this book:
My Kid Can't Spell : Understanding and Assisting Your Child's
Literacy Development by J. Richard Gentry.
Spelling isn't very important these days - which is nice for those
people whose brains just don't seem to be built for spelling well.
My 14 yo was a very poor speller - it bothered her quite a bit a
couple of years ago, but then she started IMing with friends, online,
a LOT. Over time she got better and better and now she's pretty good
at it. No lessons.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca Benson
Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
-=-If you can read it out of his sight, so he doesn't get the feeling you think there is something wrong with him, you might get some useful insight and some ways to give him some practical help from this book
My Kid Can't Spell : Understanding and Assisting Your Child's Literacy Development by J. Richard Gentry.-=-
Thanks, I'll definitely take a look at this book.
-=-Spelling isn't very important these days-=-
I don't think this is true. It may not be as important as it used to be, but in the business world at least, it doesn't look very good to send out memos with misspelled words. Yes, there is spell check, but it's not always available.
-=-My 14 yo was a very poor speller - it bothered her quite a bit a couple of years ago, but then she started IMing with friends, online, a LOT. Over time she got better and better and now she's pretty good at it. No lessons.-=-
This gives me hope that he'll eventually get it, too.
Rebecca
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-If you can read it out of his sight, so he doesn't get the feeling you think there is something wrong with him, you might get some useful insight and some ways to give him some practical help from this book
My Kid Can't Spell : Understanding and Assisting Your Child's Literacy Development by J. Richard Gentry.-=-
Thanks, I'll definitely take a look at this book.
-=-Spelling isn't very important these days-=-
I don't think this is true. It may not be as important as it used to be, but in the business world at least, it doesn't look very good to send out memos with misspelled words. Yes, there is spell check, but it's not always available.
-=-My 14 yo was a very poor speller - it bothered her quite a bit a couple of years ago, but then she started IMing with friends, online, a LOT. Over time she got better and better and now she's pretty good at it. No lessons.-=-
This gives me hope that he'll eventually get it, too.
Rebecca
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 3, 2005, at 7:57 AM, Rebecca Benson wrote:
way out of a paper bag <G> (because he'd probably spell it "pepper
bag" <G>!
His grammar, in written English, is not great, either.
He is very successful in his career - is in management in a large
corporation - testifies to the California Public Utilities Commission
and California Energy Commission, writes memos and letters, writes
all kinds of analytical reports and papers.
It is EASY to get somebody to proofread - especially with email. My
husband simply sends anything he's sending out, to me or somebody
else to catch spelling problems that the spell checker doesn't catch
and to fix grammar problems. No big deal.
It really is NOT a big deal.
-pam
> -=-Spelling isn't very important these days-=-My husband speaks English as a second language and cannot spell his
>
> I don't think this is true. It may not be as important as it used
> to be, but in the business world at least, it doesn't look very
> good to send out memos with misspelled words. Yes, there is spell
> check, but it's not always available.
>
way out of a paper bag <G> (because he'd probably spell it "pepper
bag" <G>!
His grammar, in written English, is not great, either.
He is very successful in his career - is in management in a large
corporation - testifies to the California Public Utilities Commission
and California Energy Commission, writes memos and letters, writes
all kinds of analytical reports and papers.
It is EASY to get somebody to proofread - especially with email. My
husband simply sends anything he's sending out, to me or somebody
else to catch spelling problems that the spell checker doesn't catch
and to fix grammar problems. No big deal.
It really is NOT a big deal.
-pam
Rebecca Benson
Your husband is lucky that he has someone who can do his proofreading for him. Not everyone has that kind of support system and even with that support system in place there might be times when you aren't available and a memo absolutely HAS to go out right then. That's when spelling well would come in handy.
I'm not saying that there aren't ways to get around not being able to spell well. I just don't think that saying "spelling isn't important" is a totally true statement for most people. To me that's like saying "knowing basic math isn't important." Some things ARE important. It doesn't mean that we have to shove things down our kids' throats or hand out worksheets for them to complete, but pretending they don't matter doesn't make it so, IMO.
Rebecca
Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
I'm not saying that there aren't ways to get around not being able to spell well. I just don't think that saying "spelling isn't important" is a totally true statement for most people. To me that's like saying "knowing basic math isn't important." Some things ARE important. It doesn't mean that we have to shove things down our kids' throats or hand out worksheets for them to complete, but pretending they don't matter doesn't make it so, IMO.
Rebecca
Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
On Oct 3, 2005, at 7:57 AM, Rebecca Benson wrote:
> -=-Spelling isn't very important these days-=-
>
> I don't think this is true. It may not be as important as it used
> to be, but in the business world at least, it doesn't look very
> good to send out memos with misspelled words. Yes, there is spell
> check, but it's not always available.
>
My husband speaks English as a second language and cannot spell his
way out of a paper bag <G> (because he'd probably spell it "pepper
bag" <G>!
His grammar, in written English, is not great, either.
He is very successful in his career - is in management in a large
corporation - testifies to the California Public Utilities Commission
and California Energy Commission, writes memos and letters, writes
all kinds of analytical reports and papers.
It is EASY to get somebody to proofread - especially with email. My
husband simply sends anything he's sending out, to me or somebody
else to catch spelling problems that the spell checker doesn't catch
and to fix grammar problems. No big deal.
It really is NOT a big deal.
-pam
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Manisha Kher
--- Rebecca Benson <rjpbenson@...> wrote:
different countries. English is not their strongest
point. Heck, even the native speakers are often not
that strong at writing. It doesn't matter. None of us
were hired for our spelling abilities. It's our
technical skills that matter. We get help from other
engineers who have better english, or from the
technical writers or secretaries. There is a support
system and it's right here in the workplace.
important to him right now". If it becomes important
then he'll learn to spell.
Manisha
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
> Your husband is lucky that he has someone who can doI work in an office that has engineers from many
> his proofreading for him. Not everyone has that kind
> of support system and even with that support system
> in place there might be times when you aren't
> available and a memo absolutely HAS to go out right
> then. That's when spelling well would come in
> handy.
different countries. English is not their strongest
point. Heck, even the native speakers are often not
that strong at writing. It doesn't matter. None of us
were hired for our spelling abilities. It's our
technical skills that matter. We get help from other
engineers who have better english, or from the
technical writers or secretaries. There is a support
system and it's right here in the workplace.
> I'm not saying that there aren't ways to get aroundPerhaps the statement should be "spelling is not
> not being able to spell well. I just don't think
> that saying "spelling isn't important" is a totally
> true statement for most people.
important to him right now". If it becomes important
then he'll learn to spell.
Manisha
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/5/2005 2:32:34 AM Central Standard Time,
rjpbenson@... writes:
Your husband is lucky that he has someone who can do his proofreading for
him. Not everyone has that kind of support system and even with that support
system in place there might be times when you aren't available and a memo
absolutely HAS to go out right then. That's when spelling well would come in
handy.
~~~
That's what spellcheck and grammar check is for! And there's always the
old-fashioned way--look it up in the dictionary.
There's no excuse for sending out poorly written and misspelled memos.
Never has been.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rjpbenson@... writes:
Your husband is lucky that he has someone who can do his proofreading for
him. Not everyone has that kind of support system and even with that support
system in place there might be times when you aren't available and a memo
absolutely HAS to go out right then. That's when spelling well would come in
handy.
~~~
That's what spellcheck and grammar check is for! And there's always the
old-fashioned way--look it up in the dictionary.
There's no excuse for sending out poorly written and misspelled memos.
Never has been.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
** That's what spellcheck and grammar check is for! And there's always
the
old-fashioned way--look it up in the dictionary.**
And, I believe there are hand-held spellcheckers, about the size of
calculators. If someone knew it was crucial to spell well and they just
couldn't do it unassisted, he could carry something like this(plus spare
batteries.)
Betsu
the
old-fashioned way--look it up in the dictionary.**
And, I believe there are hand-held spellcheckers, about the size of
calculators. If someone knew it was crucial to spell well and they just
couldn't do it unassisted, he could carry something like this(plus spare
batteries.)
Betsu
[email protected]
-=-Perhaps the statement should be "spelling is not
important to him right now". If it becomes important
then he'll learn to spell.-=-
People have different and differing abilities. NOT everyone who thinks
spelling might be important to the will have the same spelling abilities or
talent. Not everyone would have the ability to learn to spell to the same extent.
Not everyone could learn to be a bookkeeper to the same extent, nor to sail
sailboats, nor to rope calves, nor to play tennis.
Some people's abilities are greater than others' in various areas.
The ability to spell is not necessary to anyone's future. Some people spell
well and easily. Holly notices typos and cares. We just got e-mail from a
college student friend who misspelled something. Holly knew. We both
understood it. It was just e-mail, and it doesn't matter.
I started to say as long as some people can spell, they can spell for the
rest of us, but if it were to evolve somehow to the point that NOone could
spell, then there would be nobody to catch typos and it wouldn't matter anymore.
<g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
important to him right now". If it becomes important
then he'll learn to spell.-=-
People have different and differing abilities. NOT everyone who thinks
spelling might be important to the will have the same spelling abilities or
talent. Not everyone would have the ability to learn to spell to the same extent.
Not everyone could learn to be a bookkeeper to the same extent, nor to sail
sailboats, nor to rope calves, nor to play tennis.
Some people's abilities are greater than others' in various areas.
The ability to spell is not necessary to anyone's future. Some people spell
well and easily. Holly notices typos and cares. We just got e-mail from a
college student friend who misspelled something. Holly knew. We both
understood it. It was just e-mail, and it doesn't matter.
I started to say as long as some people can spell, they can spell for the
rest of us, but if it were to evolve somehow to the point that NOone could
spell, then there would be nobody to catch typos and it wouldn't matter anymore.
<g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca Benson
Manisha Kher <m_kher@...> wrote:
-=-even the native speakers are often not
that strong at writing. It doesn't matter. None of us
were hired for our spelling abilities. It's our
technical skills that matter. We get help from other
engineers who have better english, or from the
technical writers or secretaries. There is a support
system and it's right here in the workplace.-=-
My husband wasn't hired for his spelling abilities either, but that doesn't mean that the members of his board would appreciate receiving memos and other paperwork from him with numerous misspellings. He has an administrative assistant who does some of the typing for him, but some things he has to write and send out himself. He also sends out several handwritten notes a day to various employees and it just doesn't look good when things are misspelled.
-=-Perhaps the statement should be "spelling is not
important to him right now". If it becomes important
then he'll learn to spell.-=-
I guess I can see the truth in this statement, although it still feels more than a little weird to think of spelling as being unimportant. I've never thought of it as being ALL IMPORTANT, but it has always seemed to be a necessary part of survival and success in the business world. But I could actually be wrong (!) stranger things have happened:-)
Rebecca
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-even the native speakers are often not
that strong at writing. It doesn't matter. None of us
were hired for our spelling abilities. It's our
technical skills that matter. We get help from other
engineers who have better english, or from the
technical writers or secretaries. There is a support
system and it's right here in the workplace.-=-
My husband wasn't hired for his spelling abilities either, but that doesn't mean that the members of his board would appreciate receiving memos and other paperwork from him with numerous misspellings. He has an administrative assistant who does some of the typing for him, but some things he has to write and send out himself. He also sends out several handwritten notes a day to various employees and it just doesn't look good when things are misspelled.
-=-Perhaps the statement should be "spelling is not
important to him right now". If it becomes important
then he'll learn to spell.-=-
I guess I can see the truth in this statement, although it still feels more than a little weird to think of spelling as being unimportant. I've never thought of it as being ALL IMPORTANT, but it has always seemed to be a necessary part of survival and success in the business world. But I could actually be wrong (!) stranger things have happened:-)
Rebecca
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jenstarc4
>This whole conversation reminds me that spelling didn't used to be
all that important. Really, in the english language, people used to
make their own ways to spell things on how they thought they sounded
and everyone spelled things a little differently based on their own
interpretation of the word.
A friend of mine told me that in Germany, they have decided to go
with that again. They no longer make everyone spell everything the
same in schools. This was in a large part due to the fact that so
many non-german speaking people weren't able to pass the tests and
such to graduate, largely due to things like spelling.
With so many people being able to go from one part of the world to
another, and speaking different languages, I can see that happening
in the future for the english language as well.
Just a thought....
> I guess I can see the truth in this statement, although it stillfeels more than a little weird to think of spelling as being
unimportant. I've never thought of it as being ALL IMPORTANT, but
it has always seemed to be a necessary part of survival and success
in the business world. But I could actually be wrong (!) stranger
things have happened:-)
>
> Rebecca
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 10, 2005, at 10:44 AM, Rebecca Benson wrote:
important in order to learn to spell properly.
Spelling is inherently useful. When someone finds it useful and
meaningful for them personally, they'll figure out how to spell
(either by memorizing or using a spellchecker or asking someone to
proofread or whatever gets the job done.)
When my daughter was writing things for herself she didn't much care
about spelling. The point was just to put the thoughts down on paper.
Now that she's communicating with others, she is more aware of
spelling and uses spellcheck or asks just because spelling the
standard way is useful.
Kids are less likely to care about spelling if others equate a lack
of ability to spell with not caring about spelling and so take the
opportunity to tell the child how important spelling is.
And some people just can't spell. There does seem to be a spelling
gene. There are loads of professional people who went through school
with all it's spelling tests and messages about how important
spelling is who can't spell and they do just fine. (My guess is that
not all of them are naturally untalented spellers. Some might just be
late bloomers who were pressured and shamed about spelling and
decided spelling just wasn't important in order to protect themselves.)
If you could barely draw a stick figure and every time someone saw
one of your stick figures they took the opportunity to tell you how
important it is to draw well how motivated would you be to draw better?
Joyce
Answers to common unschooling questions: http://home.earthlink.net/
~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Weekly writing prompts: [email protected]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I guess I can see the truth in this statement, although it stillIt's schoolish to think people will need to be told that spelling is
> feels more than a little weird to think of spelling as being
> unimportant.
important in order to learn to spell properly.
Spelling is inherently useful. When someone finds it useful and
meaningful for them personally, they'll figure out how to spell
(either by memorizing or using a spellchecker or asking someone to
proofread or whatever gets the job done.)
When my daughter was writing things for herself she didn't much care
about spelling. The point was just to put the thoughts down on paper.
Now that she's communicating with others, she is more aware of
spelling and uses spellcheck or asks just because spelling the
standard way is useful.
Kids are less likely to care about spelling if others equate a lack
of ability to spell with not caring about spelling and so take the
opportunity to tell the child how important spelling is.
And some people just can't spell. There does seem to be a spelling
gene. There are loads of professional people who went through school
with all it's spelling tests and messages about how important
spelling is who can't spell and they do just fine. (My guess is that
not all of them are naturally untalented spellers. Some might just be
late bloomers who were pressured and shamed about spelling and
decided spelling just wasn't important in order to protect themselves.)
If you could barely draw a stick figure and every time someone saw
one of your stick figures they took the opportunity to tell you how
important it is to draw well how motivated would you be to draw better?
Joyce
Answers to common unschooling questions: http://home.earthlink.net/
~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Weekly writing prompts: [email protected]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca Benson
I think that something like this is bound to cause confusion. If the word I'm thinking is 'then' but I spell it 'than', that's going to be confusing for the person reading what I've written, even if they can get the basic idea from the context.
Rebecca
jenstarc4 <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
A friend of mine told me that in Germany, they have decided to go
with that again. They no longer make everyone spell everything the
same in schools. This was in a large part due to the fact that so
many non-german speaking people weren't able to pass the tests and
such to graduate, largely due to things like spelling.
With so many people being able to go from one part of the world to
another, and speaking different languages, I can see that happening
in the future for the english language as well.
Just a thought....
unimportant. I've never thought of it as being ALL IMPORTANT, but
it has always seemed to be a necessary part of survival and success
in the business world. But I could actually be wrong (!) stranger
things have happened:-)
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca
jenstarc4 <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
A friend of mine told me that in Germany, they have decided to go
with that again. They no longer make everyone spell everything the
same in schools. This was in a large part due to the fact that so
many non-german speaking people weren't able to pass the tests and
such to graduate, largely due to things like spelling.
With so many people being able to go from one part of the world to
another, and speaking different languages, I can see that happening
in the future for the english language as well.
Just a thought....
> I guess I can see the truth in this statement, although it stillfeels more than a little weird to think of spelling as being
unimportant. I've never thought of it as being ALL IMPORTANT, but
it has always seemed to be a necessary part of survival and success
in the business world. But I could actually be wrong (!) stranger
things have happened:-)
>"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> Rebecca
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
SPONSORED LINKS
Secondary school education Graduate school education Home school education Graduate school education online High school education Chicago school education
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca Benson
I can't remember exactly what I originally wrote about spelling (and I'm too rushed right now to go back and check) but even if I DIDN'T write anything like this, I have definitely been guilty of thinking it. Sandra has an article entitled "The School in My Head" and just when I think that I am escaping from that school, I find myself back in study hall! Thanks for the reminder that my children and I are home for a reason, and it's not to bring school into our home with us.
Rebecca
Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
It's schoolish to think people will need to be told that spelling is
important in order to learn to spell properly.
Spelling is inherently useful. When someone finds it useful and
meaningful for them personally, they'll figure out how to spell
(either by memorizing or using a spellchecker or asking someone to
proofread or whatever gets the job done.)
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca
Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
It's schoolish to think people will need to be told that spelling is
important in order to learn to spell properly.
Spelling is inherently useful. When someone finds it useful and
meaningful for them personally, they'll figure out how to spell
(either by memorizing or using a spellchecker or asking someone to
proofread or whatever gets the job done.)
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
>>>>>>>>>>>If the word I'm thinking is 'then' but I spell it 'than', that's going to be confusing for the person reading what I've written, even if they can get the basic idea from the context.>>>>>>>>>>>>Not necesarily. I often miss typos in reading because I'm reading for content and meaning and not focusing on spelling. Emails come through lists like this all the time with poor spelling or grammar, yet it is usually quite easy to figure out what the person is saying.
Don't take this to mean that I don't think spelling matters. I just don't think it is the highly critical thing that some people would like us to believe.
I don't know how to find them on the internet, but I have received several emails over the years with words purposely mispelled or repeated. Most people when they read these phrases are quite able to read what it means. Does anyone have any of these handy? A friend sent me one recently in which "they" have decided to simplify English spelling by deleting letters with the same sound. For instance, we don't need both "c" and "k". The email is a joke, and by the end of it the words are not spelled "correctly" but it is easy enough to read them anyway.
This ability to gloss over mistakes is important to consider in editing. A friend (in his 70s) said that in college they used to edit papers by going from the end to the beginning one word at a time. Otherwise, they would read right over mispellings because their mind knew what it was supposed to be and didn't always see what it was. This was in the days before word processors and spell check.
I've discussed the role of editors with my kids. We like to catch typos in published materials.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> -=-Spelling is inherently useful. When someone finds it useful andHolly really cares about spelling.
> meaningful for them personally, they'll figure out how to spell
> (either by memorizing or using a spellchecker or asking someone to
> proofread or whatever gets the job done.)-=-
>
Kirby doesn't much care.
Marty doesn't spell as well as Holly does, but is willing to be corrected.
The cool thing is that none of them has any emotion attached to it, or shame.
Wait... Holly does get happy if she finds a typo. I guess that's emotion.
She's happiest when it's not her typo. <g>
Me, I know that misspellings are moral failings, a sign of laziness, a lack
of intelligence, a mark of unworthiness, a waste of all my time in school.
That is WAY, way (way) too much to attach to mixing up the spellings of desert
and dessert, or forgetting if it's niece or neice. I'm glad, in this instance
that my kids don't know what I "know" (emotional knowledge, not objective
light truth).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie
Mary Ellen wrote:
<<This ability to gloss over mistakes is important to consider in editing.
A friend (in his 70s) said that in college they used to edit papers by going
from the end to the beginning one word at a time. Otherwise, they would
read right over mispellings because their mind knew what it was supposed to
be and didn't always see what it was. This was in the days before word
processors and spell check.>>
Here's an interesting exploration of how the mind automatically corrects
errors: http://tinyurl.com/96rd7
Julie in NY
<<This ability to gloss over mistakes is important to consider in editing.
A friend (in his 70s) said that in college they used to edit papers by going
from the end to the beginning one word at a time. Otherwise, they would
read right over mispellings because their mind knew what it was supposed to
be and didn't always see what it was. This was in the days before word
processors and spell check.>>
Here's an interesting exploration of how the mind automatically corrects
errors: http://tinyurl.com/96rd7
Julie in NY
nellebelle
Jackie wrote this today:
litl tan is a kwit vlig
ive day lik the 1 B4
litl tan fl of litl pepl
wacg up to sa
bonga bonsa bonsa bonsa bonsa
her kms the bac with hs ta lik lws
the sam od brad and ros to sal
eave mrng jat the sam
as the mrng lik we km to
Hint, it is from one of the songs in Disney's Beauty and the Beast. Lisa was in this production recently with our local children's theater, and Jackie and I ran the concessions and watched almost every show.
A friend of a cast member drew black and white sketches of the main characters and sold them for 50 cents a set. We picked up a couple. The girls spent quite a while today coloring them in. Lisa is making a scrapbook of her experience of being in the play. Jackie wrote the words above on the sketch of Belle that she had colored.
I thought it was interesting in light of the recent spelling conversation. Jackie is 10 and has just started reading in the past few months. She loves to write, so I spend a lot of time telling her how to spell things. This time, though, she didn't ask for help - just wrote it down.
Another tiny note is that our local McDonalds advertised the play on their reader board. We stopped to take a photo for Lisa's scrap book. They mispelled the name of the school where the play is showing. It is Chief Joseph, but they spelled it Cheif.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
litl tan is a kwit vlig
ive day lik the 1 B4
litl tan fl of litl pepl
wacg up to sa
bonga bonsa bonsa bonsa bonsa
her kms the bac with hs ta lik lws
the sam od brad and ros to sal
eave mrng jat the sam
as the mrng lik we km to
Hint, it is from one of the songs in Disney's Beauty and the Beast. Lisa was in this production recently with our local children's theater, and Jackie and I ran the concessions and watched almost every show.
A friend of a cast member drew black and white sketches of the main characters and sold them for 50 cents a set. We picked up a couple. The girls spent quite a while today coloring them in. Lisa is making a scrapbook of her experience of being in the play. Jackie wrote the words above on the sketch of Belle that she had colored.
I thought it was interesting in light of the recent spelling conversation. Jackie is 10 and has just started reading in the past few months. She loves to write, so I spend a lot of time telling her how to spell things. This time, though, she didn't ask for help - just wrote it down.
Another tiny note is that our local McDonalds advertised the play on their reader board. We stopped to take a photo for Lisa's scrap book. They mispelled the name of the school where the play is showing. It is Chief Joseph, but they spelled it Cheif.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
>>>>>>>>>>>She loves to write, so I spend a lot of time telling her how to spell things. This time, though, she didn't ask for help - just wrote it down.>>>>>>>>>>Oh! and also today, Jackie wrote a thank you note. She did ask me how to spell some words for that. Both girls understand that spelling matters more in some situations than in others.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
Funny, there is one more spelling-related thing that Jackie did yesterday. The girls were ready for bed and I came in to read to them. Jackie (10) had been writing in a notebook and asked if she could use the computer in that room to type something.
She had written a poem. She typed it all up on one line, then typed/wrote a second poem. She asked one or two questions about spelling while she was doing it.
She read the poems to us, then asked me to look at the spelling. I did, and explained that the words underlined in red were misspelled. She was amazed and thought that was just the coolest thing!
She started a third poem and was going to use spell check as she wrote each word. Lisa (12) said it's easier to write it first, then go back and fix the spelling.
For those who are new to unschooling, I will add that these are girls who have never had a "spelling lesson". All of their writing and spelling has been when they have chosen to write something and chosen to ask how to spell something. Both will sometimes ask me how to spell a word, then stop me before I finish spelling it for them, saying, "oh, I know that one".
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She had written a poem. She typed it all up on one line, then typed/wrote a second poem. She asked one or two questions about spelling while she was doing it.
She read the poems to us, then asked me to look at the spelling. I did, and explained that the words underlined in red were misspelled. She was amazed and thought that was just the coolest thing!
She started a third poem and was going to use spell check as she wrote each word. Lisa (12) said it's easier to write it first, then go back and fix the spelling.
For those who are new to unschooling, I will add that these are girls who have never had a "spelling lesson". All of their writing and spelling has been when they have chosen to write something and chosen to ask how to spell something. Both will sometimes ask me how to spell a word, then stop me before I finish spelling it for them, saying, "oh, I know that one".
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/11/05 9:50:50 PM, nellebelle@... writes:
knew what it was.
her kms the bac with hs ta lik lws
(Here comes the baker with his tray like always...)
HOW COOL!!!!
When I transcribe the words to a song, I'll put in just the first word of
each line, maybe and go back through again and add more words. Probably
phrases that are easy to write or the nouns. After playing it four or five times I
have it polished up.
Now with google and so many lyrics sites, I can lift someone else's set and
then repair it. I have very rarely found one on those lyrics sites that
didn't have an error or two, but I don't mind because it's WAY easier than
listening five times and writing like crazy.
Dictaphone. Do they make dictaphones for CDs? Foot pedals for boomboxes?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> litl tan is a kwit vligI HAD IT!!!!! It was Belle's intro song. Even before "the music came" I
> ive day lik the 1 B4
> litl tan fl of litl pepl
> wacg up to sa
>
knew what it was.
her kms the bac with hs ta lik lws
(Here comes the baker with his tray like always...)
HOW COOL!!!!
When I transcribe the words to a song, I'll put in just the first word of
each line, maybe and go back through again and add more words. Probably
phrases that are easy to write or the nouns. After playing it four or five times I
have it polished up.
Now with google and so many lyrics sites, I can lift someone else's set and
then repair it. I have very rarely found one on those lyrics sites that
didn't have an error or two, but I don't mind because it's WAY easier than
listening five times and writing like crazy.
Dictaphone. Do they make dictaphones for CDs? Foot pedals for boomboxes?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
me: someone without the baggage is so much more likely to choose to
work on a "weakness" than those of us with baggage!
Personally, my spelling has improved now that I just keep a browser
window open and google words I'm not sure of. Google so politely
asks "did you mean..." so I don't feel bad! Many, many years of
schooling and being corrected not-so-nicely didn't help neary as
much.
--aj
> The cool thing is that none of them has any emotion attached toit, or shame.
> Wait... Holly does get happy if she finds a typo. I guessthat's emotion.
> She's happiest when it's not her typo. <g>laziness, a lack
>
> Me, I know that misspellings are moral failings, a sign of
> of intelligence, a mark of unworthiness, a waste of all my time inschool.
> That is WAY, way (way) too much to attach to mixing up thespellings of desert
> and dessert, or forgetting if it's niece or neice. I'm glad, inthis instance
> that my kids don't know what I "know" (emotional knowledge, notobjective
> light truth).That's why that comment by the "unschooling critic" has been bugging
me: someone without the baggage is so much more likely to choose to
work on a "weakness" than those of us with baggage!
Personally, my spelling has improved now that I just keep a browser
window open and google words I'm not sure of. Google so politely
asks "did you mean..." so I don't feel bad! Many, many years of
schooling and being corrected not-so-nicely didn't help neary as
much.
--aj
Rebecca Benson
This is exactly how I feel...I just hadn't put it into those words for myself. This list is SO helpful in getting me to see how well trained I've been by the school system and how much I need to deschool myself.
Rebecca
SandraDodd@... wrote:
Me, I know that misspellings are moral failings, a sign of laziness, a lack of intelligence, a mark of unworthiness, a waste of all my time in school. That is WAY, way (way) too much to attach to mixing up the spellings of desert
and dessert, or forgetting if it's niece or neice. I'm glad, in this instance that my kids don't know what I "know" (emotional knowledge, not objective
light truth).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebecca
SandraDodd@... wrote:
Me, I know that misspellings are moral failings, a sign of laziness, a lack of intelligence, a mark of unworthiness, a waste of all my time in school. That is WAY, way (way) too much to attach to mixing up the spellings of desert
and dessert, or forgetting if it's niece or neice. I'm glad, in this instance that my kids don't know what I "know" (emotional knowledge, not objective
light truth).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
----Original Message-----
From: jenstarc4 jenstarc4@...
A friend of mine told me that in Germany, they have decided to go
with that again. They no longer make everyone spell everything the
same in schools. This was in a large part due to the fact that so
many non-german speaking people weren't able to pass the tests and
such to graduate, largely due to things like spelling.
-=-=-=-=-
I have serious doubts about this. German is VERY phonetic! I can't imagine Germany passing---or even *considering*---something like this. Conjugating the verbs and declining the nouns ---well, THAT's another issue! <G> But I don't think spelling would ever become a problem in Germany.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: jenstarc4 jenstarc4@...
A friend of mine told me that in Germany, they have decided to go
with that again. They no longer make everyone spell everything the
same in schools. This was in a large part due to the fact that so
many non-german speaking people weren't able to pass the tests and
such to graduate, largely due to things like spelling.
-=-=-=-=-
I have serious doubts about this. German is VERY phonetic! I can't imagine Germany passing---or even *considering*---something like this. Conjugating the verbs and declining the nouns ---well, THAT's another issue! <G> But I don't think spelling would ever become a problem in Germany.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]