Book suggestions for "getting" the concept, please?
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/27/2005 10:47:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
unschooling from the parenting perspective across to a "not getting it"
husband? Rue's or The Unschooling Handbook-or something else?
FYI-he says things (that I'm sure you've all heard) like, "WHY should he be
treated equally-he's just a KID" (when I say we should respect him as a
person-mostly for the way DH speaks to him-demands of him, etc.) and, "He's a kid,
I'm the parent-he should do what I say."
Thanks for the help!
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> If your husband cares whether kids watch a movie or play a computer gameWhich book would folks here reccomend best or first for getting the "idea" of
> before 5:00 as opposed to after 5:00, he was not NEARLY ready for
> eliminating
> bedtimes.
>
> Maybe you should buy Rue Kream's new book. It might be what you both could
>
> use.
> http://www.freechild.info/
>
unschooling from the parenting perspective across to a "not getting it"
husband? Rue's or The Unschooling Handbook-or something else?
FYI-he says things (that I'm sure you've all heard) like, "WHY should he be
treated equally-he's just a KID" (when I say we should respect him as a
person-mostly for the way DH speaks to him-demands of him, etc.) and, "He's a kid,
I'm the parent-he should do what I say."
Thanks for the help!
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<< Which book would folks here reccomend best or first for getting the
"idea" of unschooling from the parenting perspective across to a "not
getting it" husband? Rue's or The Unschooling Handbook-or something else?
FYI-he says things (that I'm sure you've all heard) like, "WHY should he be
treated equally-he's just a KID" (when I say we should respect him as a
person-mostly for the way DH speaks to him-demands of him, etc.) and, "He's
a kid, I'm the parent-he should do what I say." >>>>
This is such a parenting issue, I would second the recommendation for Rue's
book rather than Unsch. Handbook for showing him that other ways of living
with children exist successfully - that the family does not disintegrate
when the power relationships are voluntarily altered by those with the
authority.
However there are some other writers that might also help him, outside of
Unschooling such as Alfie Kohn and many of the essays at
www.naturalchild.org .
No one would be disputing his right to believe what mainstream society says
is the correct lifestyle - parent dominated. However maybe the questions
that he could ponder should be "What am I trying to achieve as a parent?"
and "Is being authoritarian the best way to achieve it in the long term?"
What helped my dh and I more than anything was recalling how we *felt* when
we were children and sharing our childhood experiences. That was what led us
to seek a different path. You cannot heal what you do not acknowledge.
Are you going to the conference?
Robyn L. Coburn
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"idea" of unschooling from the parenting perspective across to a "not
getting it" husband? Rue's or The Unschooling Handbook-or something else?
FYI-he says things (that I'm sure you've all heard) like, "WHY should he be
treated equally-he's just a KID" (when I say we should respect him as a
person-mostly for the way DH speaks to him-demands of him, etc.) and, "He's
a kid, I'm the parent-he should do what I say." >>>>
This is such a parenting issue, I would second the recommendation for Rue's
book rather than Unsch. Handbook for showing him that other ways of living
with children exist successfully - that the family does not disintegrate
when the power relationships are voluntarily altered by those with the
authority.
However there are some other writers that might also help him, outside of
Unschooling such as Alfie Kohn and many of the essays at
www.naturalchild.org .
No one would be disputing his right to believe what mainstream society says
is the correct lifestyle - parent dominated. However maybe the questions
that he could ponder should be "What am I trying to achieve as a parent?"
and "Is being authoritarian the best way to achieve it in the long term?"
What helped my dh and I more than anything was recalling how we *felt* when
we were children and sharing our childhood experiences. That was what led us
to seek a different path. You cannot heal what you do not acknowledge.
Are you going to the conference?
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.6/111 - Release Date: 9/23/2005
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/28/05 2:30:12 AM, dezigna@... writes:
make it a good move.
-=-"WHY should he be
treated equally-he's just a KID"-=-
So that they'll have a relationship.
So that his kid won't come soon to ignore HIM on the grounds that he's "just"
a dad.
http://sandradodd.com/respect
That article alone might not change his mind, but it might give you some
ideas to share or consider.
If he were to meet my teenaged sons and hang around with them for any amount
of time (if he's not the kind of guy who sees "just a kid" and wouldn't
actually look at them or listen to them), he would read that article with new
interest. That's what the conferences and what unschooling support groups can be
best at--candid opportunities to interact with kids who have grown up that way
and turned out well.
After Marty attended a weeklong junior police academy a couple of years back,
one of the sergeants told me effusively at the end how wonderful Marty was,
and said "You can always tell when a kid comes from a home with a lot of
discipline and rules."
I looked up the exact quote in a conversation I saved from the time, and I'm
glad because I had forgotten what or whether I said anything back (because the
memory of that moment still stuns me). Part of the reason for putting this
here is to indicate that a kid who was raised gently and respectfully was
still competent and confident in a situation designed specifically NOT to be
gentle and respectful, but to simulate a police academy training week. Yeah, they
were 12 to 14 years old, and yeah it wasn't really boot camp. But I think
some people (dads especially, who don't have their moms and grandmas voices
in their heads but who have the harsh pronouncements of dads, grandpas, uncles,
ex-Marine neighbors and teachers, manly shaming messages) would assume that a
boy who wasn't pressured and "made to work" and all would be hopelessly lost
in a macho high-pressure situation.
This is a conversation with a childless adult friend who knows Marty really
well:
SandraDodd: AND Top Gun came with $15 gift certificate to Oshman's.
DWSO21: Nice!
SandraDodd: So you know how many paint balls that will buy?
SandraDodd: HARDLY ANY.
DWSO21: I was about to say, "probably about 3."
SandraDodd: But wait. I was going to tell you the best part and got
sidetracked with all this chit chat.
DWSO21: Tell me the best part!
SandraDodd: After the dinner they fed us (Quarters barbecue stuff,
served up by some of their meanest instructors <g>), I went to sit with the
coordinator/spokesman of the whole thing, and I thanked him and told him Marty had a
great time.
DWSO21: and then?
SandraDodd: He told me Marty was great to work with.
SandraDodd: And in the course of our both saying nice things about
Marty, he said "You can always tell when a kid comes from a home with a lot of
discipline and rules."
DWSO21: ...and then you told him Marty's never been to school in his
life, didn't you?
DWSO21: hee hee!
DWSO21: That's a riot!
SandraDodd: I told him that Monday had been Marty's first day of school
of any sort.
DWSO21: what did he say next?
SandraDodd: And that when he got home he had re-written his notes. It
was the first time he had ever taken notes.
It was four gun safety rules and the names of all the instructors.
SandraDodd: "Good. Initiative! " He said.
I told him we hardly have ANY rules at our house, we just tell them to make
good choices that don't hurt people.
SandraDodd: He said the homeschoolers he's met haven't tended to be very
outgoing but Marty was (I forget what he said)
SandraDodd: . . . He was all a-glow from luv of Marty.
DWSO21: That's SO cool!
SandraDodd: I'll just show you the videos when you get a chance. Two
short news things and a five minute summary video (nicely put together! we
get a free copy for providing a blank tape)
DWSO21: I want to see it.
DWSO21: Aren't you afraid, though, that being a cop will wreck Marty's
naturally sunny disposition?
SandraDodd: Yeah. He might not become a cop. But it will be cop
appreciation. Like when you are learning to play an instrument and quit, but
still afterwards you know what's good and what's not when you hear people playing
one.
SandraDodd: Oh! They did a crime scene for them too.
They set up a room with clues and a storyline and the kids went in and found
the right clues, in groups.
SandraDodd: He had a lot of fun with that.
SandraDodd: And they visited the forensics lab (right across the parking
lot) and the guy showed them real crime scene photos. They said "Dead
body!" and he said "if you're good."
DWSO21: and were they good?
DWSO21: Did they see the dead body?
SandraDodd: He showed them a body after while. Drug murder, at a
party, and let them figure out why the blood pooled as it did. How was he when he
was first shot, and then how did he move (or did someone else move him) after
a while. (photo)
SandraDodd: But one of the first ones was a kitchen. "See anything?"
"bullet hole in the linoleum."
"Anything else?"
Marty said he said "That floor does NOT go well with that wall."
Ordinarily wise cracks were not being made, because they'd make them do
pushups, but they had been left with a nice lab guy who wasn't into that. <g>
So he said "If this were a fashion class, you'd be right."
SandraDodd: And then he showed a second set of photos. They spray
something on the floor and then photographic it under black light and blood showed
up all over that floor and in the hall, and on the side of the sink.
SandraDodd: So if you're going to mop up a crime scene. REALLY rinse.
Maybe use hydrogen peroxide. Rinse and repeat FOR SURE.
DWSO21: Good to know!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -==-No one would be disputing his right to believe what mainstream societyRight. Just because someone has the legal right to make a bad move doesn't
> says
> is the correct lifestyle - parent dominated. However maybe the questions
> that he could ponder should be "What am I trying to achieve as a parent?"
> and "Is being authoritarian the best way to achieve it in the long term?"-=-
>
make it a good move.
-=-"WHY should he be
treated equally-he's just a KID"-=-
So that they'll have a relationship.
So that his kid won't come soon to ignore HIM on the grounds that he's "just"
a dad.
http://sandradodd.com/respect
That article alone might not change his mind, but it might give you some
ideas to share or consider.
If he were to meet my teenaged sons and hang around with them for any amount
of time (if he's not the kind of guy who sees "just a kid" and wouldn't
actually look at them or listen to them), he would read that article with new
interest. That's what the conferences and what unschooling support groups can be
best at--candid opportunities to interact with kids who have grown up that way
and turned out well.
After Marty attended a weeklong junior police academy a couple of years back,
one of the sergeants told me effusively at the end how wonderful Marty was,
and said "You can always tell when a kid comes from a home with a lot of
discipline and rules."
I looked up the exact quote in a conversation I saved from the time, and I'm
glad because I had forgotten what or whether I said anything back (because the
memory of that moment still stuns me). Part of the reason for putting this
here is to indicate that a kid who was raised gently and respectfully was
still competent and confident in a situation designed specifically NOT to be
gentle and respectful, but to simulate a police academy training week. Yeah, they
were 12 to 14 years old, and yeah it wasn't really boot camp. But I think
some people (dads especially, who don't have their moms and grandmas voices
in their heads but who have the harsh pronouncements of dads, grandpas, uncles,
ex-Marine neighbors and teachers, manly shaming messages) would assume that a
boy who wasn't pressured and "made to work" and all would be hopelessly lost
in a macho high-pressure situation.
This is a conversation with a childless adult friend who knows Marty really
well:
SandraDodd: AND Top Gun came with $15 gift certificate to Oshman's.
DWSO21: Nice!
SandraDodd: So you know how many paint balls that will buy?
SandraDodd: HARDLY ANY.
DWSO21: I was about to say, "probably about 3."
SandraDodd: But wait. I was going to tell you the best part and got
sidetracked with all this chit chat.
DWSO21: Tell me the best part!
SandraDodd: After the dinner they fed us (Quarters barbecue stuff,
served up by some of their meanest instructors <g>), I went to sit with the
coordinator/spokesman of the whole thing, and I thanked him and told him Marty had a
great time.
DWSO21: and then?
SandraDodd: He told me Marty was great to work with.
SandraDodd: And in the course of our both saying nice things about
Marty, he said "You can always tell when a kid comes from a home with a lot of
discipline and rules."
DWSO21: ...and then you told him Marty's never been to school in his
life, didn't you?
DWSO21: hee hee!
DWSO21: That's a riot!
SandraDodd: I told him that Monday had been Marty's first day of school
of any sort.
DWSO21: what did he say next?
SandraDodd: And that when he got home he had re-written his notes. It
was the first time he had ever taken notes.
It was four gun safety rules and the names of all the instructors.
SandraDodd: "Good. Initiative! " He said.
I told him we hardly have ANY rules at our house, we just tell them to make
good choices that don't hurt people.
SandraDodd: He said the homeschoolers he's met haven't tended to be very
outgoing but Marty was (I forget what he said)
SandraDodd: . . . He was all a-glow from luv of Marty.
DWSO21: That's SO cool!
SandraDodd: I'll just show you the videos when you get a chance. Two
short news things and a five minute summary video (nicely put together! we
get a free copy for providing a blank tape)
DWSO21: I want to see it.
DWSO21: Aren't you afraid, though, that being a cop will wreck Marty's
naturally sunny disposition?
SandraDodd: Yeah. He might not become a cop. But it will be cop
appreciation. Like when you are learning to play an instrument and quit, but
still afterwards you know what's good and what's not when you hear people playing
one.
SandraDodd: Oh! They did a crime scene for them too.
They set up a room with clues and a storyline and the kids went in and found
the right clues, in groups.
SandraDodd: He had a lot of fun with that.
SandraDodd: And they visited the forensics lab (right across the parking
lot) and the guy showed them real crime scene photos. They said "Dead
body!" and he said "if you're good."
DWSO21: and were they good?
DWSO21: Did they see the dead body?
SandraDodd: He showed them a body after while. Drug murder, at a
party, and let them figure out why the blood pooled as it did. How was he when he
was first shot, and then how did he move (or did someone else move him) after
a while. (photo)
SandraDodd: But one of the first ones was a kitchen. "See anything?"
"bullet hole in the linoleum."
"Anything else?"
Marty said he said "That floor does NOT go well with that wall."
Ordinarily wise cracks were not being made, because they'd make them do
pushups, but they had been left with a nice lab guy who wasn't into that. <g>
So he said "If this were a fashion class, you'd be right."
SandraDodd: And then he showed a second set of photos. They spray
something on the floor and then photographic it under black light and blood showed
up all over that floor and in the hall, and on the side of the sink.
SandraDodd: So if you're going to mop up a crime scene. REALLY rinse.
Maybe use hydrogen peroxide. Rinse and repeat FOR SURE.
DWSO21: Good to know!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jenstarc4
"WHY should he be
want to be intrusive or anything on this...but...
The reason one should treat another respectfully no matter what age,
is because you should always treat someone else the way that you
want to be treated yourself. This is especially true for kids
because kids learn how to treat others largely from how their
parents treat them! Then, if you are treating a 4 yr old
disrespectfully, they probably won't be able to do anything about it
because they are little and you are big, but little 4 yr olds don't
stay 4, they grow to be big, and then the behavior that you've
taught them looks bigger too.
It's just always a better idea to treat all people respectfully,
even adults who don't deserve it, because they are just big people
with hurt little kids inside themselves.
Jenny
> treated equally-he's just a KID" (when I say we should respect himas a
> person-mostly for the way DH speaks to him-demands of him, etc.)and, "He's a kid,
> I'm the parent-he should do what I say."Okay, I haven't posted hear in a long time maybe never, so I don't
>
> Thanks for the help!
>
> Sang
>
>
want to be intrusive or anything on this...but...
The reason one should treat another respectfully no matter what age,
is because you should always treat someone else the way that you
want to be treated yourself. This is especially true for kids
because kids learn how to treat others largely from how their
parents treat them! Then, if you are treating a 4 yr old
disrespectfully, they probably won't be able to do anything about it
because they are little and you are big, but little 4 yr olds don't
stay 4, they grow to be big, and then the behavior that you've
taught them looks bigger too.
It's just always a better idea to treat all people respectfully,
even adults who don't deserve it, because they are just big people
with hurt little kids inside themselves.
Jenny
Betsy Hill
**
"WHY should he be
treated equally-he's just a KID" **
Parent-Teen Breakthrough is full of good stuff about preserving the relationship between parent and older child. Probably less relevant for a family in which all the children are younger than 10, in my opinion.
(I'm slowly reading it now, and my child is 11.)
Betsy
"WHY should he be
treated equally-he's just a KID" **
Parent-Teen Breakthrough is full of good stuff about preserving the relationship between parent and older child. Probably less relevant for a family in which all the children are younger than 10, in my opinion.
(I'm slowly reading it now, and my child is 11.)
Betsy
Sang
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
circuit" is between the discussions we have (which seem productive at
the time) and when the actual parenting takes place (we usually talk
when the kids are in bed, so the gap is pretty long).
Unfortunately, we can't afford the cost of the conference this year-
which is a bummer, since it is relatively close. I think he'd be
willing (or at least resigned to-lol) to go when it is possible,
though. Thanks for the link.
Peace,
Sang
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
> What helped my dh and I more than anything was recalling how we*felt* when
> we were children and sharing our childhood experiences. That waswhat led us
> to seek a different path. You cannot heal what you do notacknowledge.
>We have gone over these things, but I'm not sure where the "short
> Are you going to the conference?
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
circuit" is between the discussions we have (which seem productive at
the time) and when the actual parenting takes place (we usually talk
when the kids are in bed, so the gap is pretty long).
Unfortunately, we can't afford the cost of the conference this year-
which is a bummer, since it is relatively close. I think he'd be
willing (or at least resigned to-lol) to go when it is possible,
though. Thanks for the link.
Peace,
Sang
Sang
--- In [email protected], Betsy Hill
<ecsamhill@s...> wrote:
for a family in which all the children are younger than 10, in my
opinion.
months. Thanks!
Peace,
Sang
<ecsamhill@s...> wrote:
> Parent-Teen Breakthrough is full of good stuff about preserving therelationship between parent and older child. Probably less relevant
for a family in which all the children are younger than 10, in my
opinion.
>Sorry I didn't specify: the "kid" in question is 6, our other is 11
> (I'm slowly reading it now, and my child is 11.)
>
> Betsy
months. Thanks!
Peace,
Sang
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/28/2005 7:58:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
That article alone might not change his mind, but it might give you some
ideas to share or consider.
~~~
For some, this is their first real conversation with a person who isn't grown
to adulthood. My kids are used to being the first, in that way. They're used
to the look in people's eyes when they realize that here is a child who has
something to talk about and who will confidently and guilelessly speak.~~~>>>
Wow... That gives me hope that I'm at least on the right track. Wyl has been
like that since he could talk-18 months? 2 years old?-People would look at me
baffled, questioning, uncertain. Until I read that, I had just assumed it was
a "safety" kind of issue, "You're letting your toddler/preschooler talk to a
complete stranger without you guarding (hovering over) him?!". He's always been
a natural, voluminous talker, eager to share all that happened to him that
day, that week, this lifetime... :~) Glad to know we haven't inadvertently
stifled that in our bumbling to be the best parents we can be. Thanks for the
little peace of mind.
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> So that they'll have a relationship.That's good-I'll use it next time. Thank you.
> So that his kid won't come soon to ignore HIM on the grounds that he's
> "just"
> a dad.
>
That article alone might not change his mind, but it might give you some
ideas to share or consider.
~~~
For some, this is their first real conversation with a person who isn't grown
to adulthood. My kids are used to being the first, in that way. They're used
to the look in people's eyes when they realize that here is a child who has
something to talk about and who will confidently and guilelessly speak.~~~>>>
Wow... That gives me hope that I'm at least on the right track. Wyl has been
like that since he could talk-18 months? 2 years old?-People would look at me
baffled, questioning, uncertain. Until I read that, I had just assumed it was
a "safety" kind of issue, "You're letting your toddler/preschooler talk to a
complete stranger without you guarding (hovering over) him?!". He's always been
a natural, voluminous talker, eager to share all that happened to him that
day, that week, this lifetime... :~) Glad to know we haven't inadvertently
stifled that in our bumbling to be the best parents we can be. Thanks for the
little peace of mind.
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]