Preschool ages...what should I provide them with?
prism7513
I kind of get the concept of facilitator vs. teacher, and I so want
to get it right, but my kids aren't even 3 yet (one will be in a
month, the other just turned one) and I don't know how to BEGIN, even
though I know in a way we've been doing it since they were born!
But I want to know if I should be doing things like repeating the
alphabet to her? I know she could recognize the letters if I did, but
I was waiting to see if, like in Holt's books, she just goes straight
to reading someday. But that might be awhile and I feel like an idiot
telling people I'm homeschooling (they haven't ever heard the term
UNschooling) and then my 3 year old can't say the alphabet, and
everyone else's can...
Do I get certain counting bars so she can play with them, or just
wait until she asks how many of something there is? Do I correct her
when she miscounts as toddlers will (by just repeating the order
correctly, not meanly or implying she's wrong) or do I correct her
when she makes up the words on a page and point to the right word and
tell her what it is? Or is this too much teaching?
I know I probabaly sound over-anxious, I tend to be. But if you can
tell me how you all work with you littlest ones...
One thing that really intimidated me was in the book Teach Your Own,
the author (not Holt, the newer guy) mentioned that their youngest
could count by 2's forever and by 5's to 100 by the time she went to
kindergarten (by her insistence until she got bored.) I
thought, "Man, should I be doing something different?" I just don't
see how my kid will one day ask, "How do you count by 2's?" when they
don't even know what it is? So how does one so young learn to want to
learn specific things like that?
The only thing I can think of is the intro to the cartoon,
Franklin..."Franklin could count by 2's and tie his shoes...." ;)
Thanks for all your help. I can't wait to start this journey!
to get it right, but my kids aren't even 3 yet (one will be in a
month, the other just turned one) and I don't know how to BEGIN, even
though I know in a way we've been doing it since they were born!
But I want to know if I should be doing things like repeating the
alphabet to her? I know she could recognize the letters if I did, but
I was waiting to see if, like in Holt's books, she just goes straight
to reading someday. But that might be awhile and I feel like an idiot
telling people I'm homeschooling (they haven't ever heard the term
UNschooling) and then my 3 year old can't say the alphabet, and
everyone else's can...
Do I get certain counting bars so she can play with them, or just
wait until she asks how many of something there is? Do I correct her
when she miscounts as toddlers will (by just repeating the order
correctly, not meanly or implying she's wrong) or do I correct her
when she makes up the words on a page and point to the right word and
tell her what it is? Or is this too much teaching?
I know I probabaly sound over-anxious, I tend to be. But if you can
tell me how you all work with you littlest ones...
One thing that really intimidated me was in the book Teach Your Own,
the author (not Holt, the newer guy) mentioned that their youngest
could count by 2's forever and by 5's to 100 by the time she went to
kindergarten (by her insistence until she got bored.) I
thought, "Man, should I be doing something different?" I just don't
see how my kid will one day ask, "How do you count by 2's?" when they
don't even know what it is? So how does one so young learn to want to
learn specific things like that?
The only thing I can think of is the intro to the cartoon,
Franklin..."Franklin could count by 2's and tie his shoes...." ;)
Thanks for all your help. I can't wait to start this journey!
Joyce Fetteroll
The first thing you should do is sign up for the AlwaysUnschooled
list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/) for parents of
young unschoolers.
sing the song, fun to be competent at things.
Treat the song as you would any other song, as just something fun to
sing.
Treat recognition of the letters as you would the characters' names
in her favorite TV show. She'll learn them because she's interested
in the show, not because she needs to know the names to like the show.
The alphabet is part of life. It's a natural part of things that are
interesting. She learn it as she comes across interesting things.
Your job isn't to get her to learn but to provide access to
interesting things. Be curious about life. Stop and look at
interesting rocks and weeds when on walks. Try new foods. Listen to
new music. Not as a way to get her to pay attention to "important
stuff" but to be and model being curious about life.
parts. Kids will pick up bits and pieces of the parts as they live
life. They'll pick up letters and pieces of words and sounds. For
instance a child may recongize STOP and McDonald's signs before
recognizing all the letters. That's part of learning to read. It's
not like one day she'll be reading. My daughter, for instance, loved
to write but it took her ages to read. Which seems totally backward
and yet there it was :-)
Read to her. (*If* she enjoys it!) Listen to stories and books on
tape. Ask if she'd like to add a caption to the bottom of drawings
and write it for her. Label things around the house and after a while
mix up the labels as a fun game. (Might be too early for this.)
great accomplishment won't hesitate to show you. Those who can't or
have no interest just aren't making it known. :-)
If you were in a group of 10 women and someone asked if anyone knew
how to make a pie crust and 3 women spoke up it might seem like
everyone but you (and the original questioner) knew how but it's more
likely that the other 7 don't. (And they, too, are sitting there
thinking everyone else knows how to make pie crust. ;-)
All mothers are just as worried as you are. Maybe more because
they'll be sending their kids off to school where the parents are
worried they'll "fall behind". If they're showing off what little
Sasquatch can do, it's a way of voicing their relief that it's one
less thing they have to worry about.
And what does a 3 yo need with the alphabet? How does the alphabet
help a 3 yo do better 3 yo things.
Too often we look at children as imperfect adults. Better to look at
them as being perfect for whoever they are today.
What did you do to help your child at 2 prepare to be 3? It sounds
like a ridiculous question. They just lived day by day, learning what
they needed for the moment and, day by day, became more 3 like until
one day, tada, they're 3.
Same with kids becoming adults. They do it one day at a time by just
being the age they are.
Unless she happens to see counting bears and thinks they're the most
adorable thing invented, don't bother. Count real things with her --
things that are hers -- just because it's cool to know how many.
Think of it perhaps less as memorizing what order the numbers come in
and more as comparison. When you're folding you can say "Look you
have 3 red shirts and 2 blue ones."
Most kids love to sort. Sort real things like rocks and leaves and
acorns and toy collections. Anything she's fascinated with. (And
don't worry if she's not fascinated now. There's no rush. She *will*
count before she's 18!) Talk about her toys. Have conversations as
you might with a friend. Ask her questions. How many red cars do you
have? Where did you get this one? Which cars are boys and which are
girls? ;-)
intervention because she's going to naturally hear the right way a
lot more than the wrong way.
pleasant for her rather than worrying that she'll never get it.
It is hard with the first because it seems like there are so many
pitfalls and stumbling blocks that kids can never get over or around.
Once you've seen them learn things that it takes naturally you
realize there was nothing to worry about.
arithmetic naturally :-)
When you're sorting pennies to roll you can count by 2s and 3s. You
can put them in stacks of five and then count. Count nickels. There
are naturally occurring in life opportunities to skip count. :-)
across things quite a few times before it registers. But if their
experiences are always pleasant -- eg, no pressure to learn, no worry
that they won't pay attention -- there's no reason for kids to avoid
learning.
won't.) You *can* but you don't need to ask "Have you ever counted by
2's like Franklin can? 2, 4, 6, 8 ..." If she's interested you can
say "People can count by 3's too: 3, 6, 9, 12 ..." (Though she's
probably too young. Skip counting increases the numbers pretty
quickly and if she hasn't yet had enough experience with larger
numbers, it's not going to mean much. If you push she'll draw away
and associate the pushing and the icky feeling with the skip counting.)
(A lot of this stuff comes up on Sesame Street too. But it's not
necessary. Kathryn rarely watched and she's a perfectly fine 14 yo. :-)
Joyce Fetteroll
New old stuff at: http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/) for parents of
young unschoolers.
> But I want to know if I should be doing things like repeating theNot as a way to get her to learn the alphabet but because it's fun to
> alphabet to her?
sing the song, fun to be competent at things.
Treat the song as you would any other song, as just something fun to
sing.
Treat recognition of the letters as you would the characters' names
in her favorite TV show. She'll learn them because she's interested
in the show, not because she needs to know the names to like the show.
The alphabet is part of life. It's a natural part of things that are
interesting. She learn it as she comes across interesting things.
Your job isn't to get her to learn but to provide access to
interesting things. Be curious about life. Stop and look at
interesting rocks and weeds when on walks. Try new foods. Listen to
new music. Not as a way to get her to pay attention to "important
stuff" but to be and model being curious about life.
> I know she could recognize the letters if I did, butWell yes and no. Learning to read is made up of lots of different
> I was waiting to see if, like in Holt's books, she just goes straight
> to reading someday.
parts. Kids will pick up bits and pieces of the parts as they live
life. They'll pick up letters and pieces of words and sounds. For
instance a child may recongize STOP and McDonald's signs before
recognizing all the letters. That's part of learning to read. It's
not like one day she'll be reading. My daughter, for instance, loved
to write but it took her ages to read. Which seems totally backward
and yet there it was :-)
Read to her. (*If* she enjoys it!) Listen to stories and books on
tape. Ask if she'd like to add a caption to the bottom of drawings
and write it for her. Label things around the house and after a while
mix up the labels as a fun game. (Might be too early for this.)
> But that might be awhile and I feel like an idiotNo, not every 3 yo can. The ones who can and the ones who feel it's a
> telling people I'm homeschooling (they haven't ever heard the term
> UNschooling) and then my 3 year old can't say the alphabet, and
> everyone else's can...
great accomplishment won't hesitate to show you. Those who can't or
have no interest just aren't making it known. :-)
If you were in a group of 10 women and someone asked if anyone knew
how to make a pie crust and 3 women spoke up it might seem like
everyone but you (and the original questioner) knew how but it's more
likely that the other 7 don't. (And they, too, are sitting there
thinking everyone else knows how to make pie crust. ;-)
All mothers are just as worried as you are. Maybe more because
they'll be sending their kids off to school where the parents are
worried they'll "fall behind". If they're showing off what little
Sasquatch can do, it's a way of voicing their relief that it's one
less thing they have to worry about.
And what does a 3 yo need with the alphabet? How does the alphabet
help a 3 yo do better 3 yo things.
Too often we look at children as imperfect adults. Better to look at
them as being perfect for whoever they are today.
What did you do to help your child at 2 prepare to be 3? It sounds
like a ridiculous question. They just lived day by day, learning what
they needed for the moment and, day by day, became more 3 like until
one day, tada, they're 3.
Same with kids becoming adults. They do it one day at a time by just
being the age they are.
> Do I get certain counting bars so she can play with them, or justCounting existed before counter bears were invented ;-)
> wait until she asks how many of something there is?
Unless she happens to see counting bears and thinks they're the most
adorable thing invented, don't bother. Count real things with her --
things that are hers -- just because it's cool to know how many.
Think of it perhaps less as memorizing what order the numbers come in
and more as comparison. When you're folding you can say "Look you
have 3 red shirts and 2 blue ones."
Most kids love to sort. Sort real things like rocks and leaves and
acorns and toy collections. Anything she's fascinated with. (And
don't worry if she's not fascinated now. There's no rush. She *will*
count before she's 18!) Talk about her toys. Have conversations as
you might with a friend. Ask her questions. How many red cars do you
have? Where did you get this one? Which cars are boys and which are
girls? ;-)
> Do I correct herDepends but generally I'd say no. It will self correct without
> when she miscounts as toddlers will (by just repeating the order
> correctly, not meanly or implying she's wrong)
intervention because she's going to naturally hear the right way a
lot more than the wrong way.
> or do I correct herAgain this will self correct. Think in terms of the experience being
> when she makes up the words on a page and point to the right word and
> tell her what it is? Or is this too much teaching?
pleasant for her rather than worrying that she'll never get it.
It is hard with the first because it seems like there are so many
pitfalls and stumbling blocks that kids can never get over or around.
Once you've seen them learn things that it takes naturally you
realize there was nothing to worry about.
> I just don'tKathryn rarely skip counted and yet she learned how to count and do
> see how my kid will one day ask, "How do you count by 2's?"
arithmetic naturally :-)
When you're sorting pennies to roll you can count by 2s and 3s. You
can put them in stacks of five and then count. Count nickels. There
are naturally occurring in life opportunities to skip count. :-)
> So how does one so young learn to want toBy encountering it and thinking it's interesting. Often they'll run
> learn specific things like that?
across things quite a few times before it registers. But if their
experiences are always pleasant -- eg, no pressure to learn, no worry
that they won't pay attention -- there's no reason for kids to avoid
learning.
> The only thing I can think of is the intro to the cartoon,Some kids will ask "What's count by 2's." Some won't. (Probably most
> Franklin..."Franklin could count by 2's and tie his shoes...." ;)
won't.) You *can* but you don't need to ask "Have you ever counted by
2's like Franklin can? 2, 4, 6, 8 ..." If she's interested you can
say "People can count by 3's too: 3, 6, 9, 12 ..." (Though she's
probably too young. Skip counting increases the numbers pretty
quickly and if she hasn't yet had enough experience with larger
numbers, it's not going to mean much. If you push she'll draw away
and associate the pushing and the icky feeling with the skip counting.)
(A lot of this stuff comes up on Sesame Street too. But it's not
necessary. Kathryn rarely watched and she's a perfectly fine 14 yo. :-)
Joyce Fetteroll
New old stuff at: http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
soggyboysmom
Joyce pretty much summed it all up but I'm going to chime in
anyhow ;-) My DS has never been schooled at all (he's 7 now). Here
are some snippets of how things happened at our house:
'skip' counting AND alphabet both happened as games we'd play in the
car or while he was sitting on the toilet (pretty boring place to be
when you can't read) - we'd say the letters or numbers back and
forth so he'd say 1 then I'd do 2 he'd do 3...or he'd do a, I'd have
b, he'd do c and so on. As he got older, he might decide we'd do the
alphabet -backwards- (which is a challenge even for us grown ups
sometimes) or we'd do random things like he'd say a,b,c then I'd say
d,e, and he'd say f and I'd say g,h, and so on - both of us had to
keep track of where we were because it wasn't necessarily going to
be just the next letter. We'd play games and (us adults would) total
scores by counting in 2s, or 3s, or 5s, or 10s - we'd verbalize it
instead of counting silently. He'd amuse himself in the car by just
sitting there counting (lately it's been hundreds and thousands).
One day (within the last year or so) I realized he was counting the
money he had in Shrek Monopoly Jr by 2s and then when he got to the
$3 bills he paused added $3 to whatever he was at then went by 3s
from there. He loved the alphabet song as a tot - we had a poster
with animals as each letter and we'd sit and look at that and sing
the song, eventually it even 'worked' as a lullaby when he was
feeling fussy.
Reading: as Joyce mentioned, DS knew Stop and McDonald's and Burger
King and Friendly's and Sears and Exit, all the common stuff, early
on (3 or 4 yrs old) by pattern recognition. And, we read a lot
together. Sometimes we'd buddy read - he'd be responsible for one
word (eg. Dog) and I'd read the rest (this was later 3 and into 4
yrs old and only when he wantd to do it). Over time it expanded to a
couple words and sometimes he'd read 'his' word and keep going a
bit. Just before he was 5 he asked for a popular commercialized
product so he could learn to read. Instead (he wanted it NOW and the
product wouldn't arrive that fast so he said OK to something else),
we used the Bob books for about 3 evenings (before bed story time) -
it was just enough for him to realize that what he was doing was, in
fact, reading. Oh, a fun game we played about that time: I got
rather tired one evening of reading the Berenstain Bears Ride the
Thunderbolt for the gazillionth time. So, I started at the end and
read the whole thing backwards, siht ekil. DS thought it was
hysterical! And it made it more interesting for me because I had to
think and pay attention. In 'academic terms', DS could see me
tackling 'new' words and figuring them out - modeling the process in
a real way (sounding things out usually sounds fairly fake when
adults who already know the words do it). In hindsight what I think
was going on was that DS was seeing familiar words, breaking them
down, then applying what he recognized to new words. No memorizing
rules and exceptions. More of an organic blend of phonics and whole
language.
Don't even bother to tell people you're homeschooling right now - at
3, she is not required to be schooled at all. If anyone asks, just a
simple 'we chose not to send her to preschool this year' - leaves
everything else open ended. If someone really pushes you might
even 'name drop' something like "We agree with DOCTOR Raymond Moore
whose research indicated that delaying academic instruction is
beneficial" (make it sound really good).
Let her make up stories to match the pictures in her books. Odds are
at some point she'll be saying her story but running her fingers
across the page -as if- she was reading them. That's the beginning
of recognizing that the letters on the page tell a story, correspond
to words spoken. That's a great thing.
Count lots of stuff - sort socks (there's counting by twos for you,
unless you've got someone in the house with more than two feet lol!)
She may not ask how many somethings there are. Here's a story from
when DS was about 3 and a bit: we were in the car, travelling a few
hours so we had snacks on hand. I handed him 3 cookies. A minute
later he asked for 4 more. I knew he couldn't have eaten 3 cookies
that fast so I asked why he needed 4 more when he already had 3
sitting there. He said he wanted 7 and he had 3 so he needed 4 more.
What could I say? I gave him 4 more. Little everyday things 'add
up' - setting the table for company for instance. A tip would be to
verbalize your thought processes - "we usually need 3 forks but
Grandma and Grandpa are coming for dinner so we need 2 more. That's
5 forks we need from the drawer."
We didn't/don't 'work' with DS at all - we live with him. We try to
find stuff that is of interest or might be of interest to bring into
his orbit. Yeah, we had counting bears - they most often ended up on
the receiving end of a game of 'bowling' or got crashed into by
matchbox cars or got tossed into a pot of pretend soup - counting
them? not so much. Playing freely and joyfully - definitely.
--- In [email protected], "prism7513"
<penley75@c...> wrote:
--Deb
anyhow ;-) My DS has never been schooled at all (he's 7 now). Here
are some snippets of how things happened at our house:
'skip' counting AND alphabet both happened as games we'd play in the
car or while he was sitting on the toilet (pretty boring place to be
when you can't read) - we'd say the letters or numbers back and
forth so he'd say 1 then I'd do 2 he'd do 3...or he'd do a, I'd have
b, he'd do c and so on. As he got older, he might decide we'd do the
alphabet -backwards- (which is a challenge even for us grown ups
sometimes) or we'd do random things like he'd say a,b,c then I'd say
d,e, and he'd say f and I'd say g,h, and so on - both of us had to
keep track of where we were because it wasn't necessarily going to
be just the next letter. We'd play games and (us adults would) total
scores by counting in 2s, or 3s, or 5s, or 10s - we'd verbalize it
instead of counting silently. He'd amuse himself in the car by just
sitting there counting (lately it's been hundreds and thousands).
One day (within the last year or so) I realized he was counting the
money he had in Shrek Monopoly Jr by 2s and then when he got to the
$3 bills he paused added $3 to whatever he was at then went by 3s
from there. He loved the alphabet song as a tot - we had a poster
with animals as each letter and we'd sit and look at that and sing
the song, eventually it even 'worked' as a lullaby when he was
feeling fussy.
Reading: as Joyce mentioned, DS knew Stop and McDonald's and Burger
King and Friendly's and Sears and Exit, all the common stuff, early
on (3 or 4 yrs old) by pattern recognition. And, we read a lot
together. Sometimes we'd buddy read - he'd be responsible for one
word (eg. Dog) and I'd read the rest (this was later 3 and into 4
yrs old and only when he wantd to do it). Over time it expanded to a
couple words and sometimes he'd read 'his' word and keep going a
bit. Just before he was 5 he asked for a popular commercialized
product so he could learn to read. Instead (he wanted it NOW and the
product wouldn't arrive that fast so he said OK to something else),
we used the Bob books for about 3 evenings (before bed story time) -
it was just enough for him to realize that what he was doing was, in
fact, reading. Oh, a fun game we played about that time: I got
rather tired one evening of reading the Berenstain Bears Ride the
Thunderbolt for the gazillionth time. So, I started at the end and
read the whole thing backwards, siht ekil. DS thought it was
hysterical! And it made it more interesting for me because I had to
think and pay attention. In 'academic terms', DS could see me
tackling 'new' words and figuring them out - modeling the process in
a real way (sounding things out usually sounds fairly fake when
adults who already know the words do it). In hindsight what I think
was going on was that DS was seeing familiar words, breaking them
down, then applying what he recognized to new words. No memorizing
rules and exceptions. More of an organic blend of phonics and whole
language.
Don't even bother to tell people you're homeschooling right now - at
3, she is not required to be schooled at all. If anyone asks, just a
simple 'we chose not to send her to preschool this year' - leaves
everything else open ended. If someone really pushes you might
even 'name drop' something like "We agree with DOCTOR Raymond Moore
whose research indicated that delaying academic instruction is
beneficial" (make it sound really good).
Let her make up stories to match the pictures in her books. Odds are
at some point she'll be saying her story but running her fingers
across the page -as if- she was reading them. That's the beginning
of recognizing that the letters on the page tell a story, correspond
to words spoken. That's a great thing.
Count lots of stuff - sort socks (there's counting by twos for you,
unless you've got someone in the house with more than two feet lol!)
She may not ask how many somethings there are. Here's a story from
when DS was about 3 and a bit: we were in the car, travelling a few
hours so we had snacks on hand. I handed him 3 cookies. A minute
later he asked for 4 more. I knew he couldn't have eaten 3 cookies
that fast so I asked why he needed 4 more when he already had 3
sitting there. He said he wanted 7 and he had 3 so he needed 4 more.
What could I say? I gave him 4 more. Little everyday things 'add
up' - setting the table for company for instance. A tip would be to
verbalize your thought processes - "we usually need 3 forks but
Grandma and Grandpa are coming for dinner so we need 2 more. That's
5 forks we need from the drawer."
We didn't/don't 'work' with DS at all - we live with him. We try to
find stuff that is of interest or might be of interest to bring into
his orbit. Yeah, we had counting bears - they most often ended up on
the receiving end of a game of 'bowling' or got crashed into by
matchbox cars or got tossed into a pot of pretend soup - counting
them? not so much. Playing freely and joyfully - definitely.
--- In [email protected], "prism7513"
<penley75@c...> wrote:
>You've -already- started - approximately 3 yrs ago you started.
> Thanks for all your help. I can't wait to start this journey!
--Deb
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/2005 6:54:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
But I want to know if I should be doing things like repeating the
alphabet to her? I know she could recognize the letters if I did, but
I was waiting to see if, like in Holt's books, she just goes straight
to reading someday. But that might be awhile and I feel like an idiot
telling people I'm homeschooling (they haven't ever heard the term
UNschooling) and then my 3 year old can't say the alphabet, and
everyone else's can...
**********************************
I'm reminded of something the sage Stephen Wright one asked: "Why is the
alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song?"
In general, no I don't think you need to be teaching her the alphabet.
However, the book Chicka Chicka Boom Boom by Bill Martin is the coolest thing.
Forget the alphabet, it's the rhythm. Amazing to read, and if you can find the
tape with Ray Charles reading it...well, forget the kids you'll love it. So,
yeah, get this book... "A told B and B told C, 'I'll meet you at the top of the
coconut tree."
Oh! And Animalia, by Graeme Base, with the loveliext pictures and verses
and puzzles in the world.
Forget the alphabet (and that song!) But really, get these books. The kids
might like them too.
Kathryn, who needs more little ones, she thinks
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
But I want to know if I should be doing things like repeating the
alphabet to her? I know she could recognize the letters if I did, but
I was waiting to see if, like in Holt's books, she just goes straight
to reading someday. But that might be awhile and I feel like an idiot
telling people I'm homeschooling (they haven't ever heard the term
UNschooling) and then my 3 year old can't say the alphabet, and
everyone else's can...
**********************************
I'm reminded of something the sage Stephen Wright one asked: "Why is the
alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song?"
In general, no I don't think you need to be teaching her the alphabet.
However, the book Chicka Chicka Boom Boom by Bill Martin is the coolest thing.
Forget the alphabet, it's the rhythm. Amazing to read, and if you can find the
tape with Ray Charles reading it...well, forget the kids you'll love it. So,
yeah, get this book... "A told B and B told C, 'I'll meet you at the top of the
coconut tree."
Oh! And Animalia, by Graeme Base, with the loveliext pictures and verses
and puzzles in the world.
Forget the alphabet (and that song!) But really, get these books. The kids
might like them too.
Kathryn, who needs more little ones, she thinks
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], KathrynJB@a... wrote:
version of the alphabet song to the traditional one. It entirely
bypasses the problematic 'elemenohpee' area by breaking it up
differently. DS loved that video - lots of color and music and
movement.
--Deb
>I found that I prefer the Sesame Street "Do the Alphabet" video's
> Forget the alphabet (and that song!) But really, get these books.
>The kids
> might like them too.
>
> Kathryn, who needs more little ones, she thinks
version of the alphabet song to the traditional one. It entirely
bypasses the problematic 'elemenohpee' area by breaking it up
differently. DS loved that video - lots of color and music and
movement.
--Deb
Danielle Conger
prism7513 wrote:
everything *right*, yet it's so hard to sort through all the right
answers offered out there. Just living and being and breathing and
loving your young children will be getting it right. Pat Farenga (I'm
assuming that's the newer guy you referred to) isn't, as I understand
it, unschooling as many on this list would define it, and the first
thing that will be helpful is learning how to breathe through the desire
to compare your children with anyone. It's no more helpful or meaningful
now than it was when they were learning to roll over for the first time.
Spending a lot of time just reading here at this list, at Sandra's site,
at Joyce's new website will help you think through and sort out all the
nuances between teaching and facilitating. There's also the
AlwaysUnschooled list where there are many parents discussing how to
unschool little ones--under age 8 or so--which you might find really
helpful, and you can check out my website linked below and my blog
linked off there to see what unschooling looks like in our home (mine
are 8, 6 and 5).
I remember about 4.5 years ago I thought it was so great that my
youngest daughter, then about 2.5, could sing the abc song. We were just
moving back East from Albuquerque, NM and hadn't seen family for a
while, and they made such a big deal when they came to visit that she
could sing the abc song. That was back when I was really beginning to
seriously read and *talk* about homeschooling, so it was like a huge
justification as I saw it. Well, as my older child got less interested
in singing the song, Julia gradually forgot it. She's been slower, too,
to learn the letters and their sounds than my oldest, who's just
deciphering how to read now.
When Julia learned the song, it had little to nothing to do with the
actual alphabet and certainly nothing to do with reading, pre-reading or
reading readiness--whatever schools want to call it. She will make the
connections between the word "Aaa" and the letter "A" or "a" and the
sounds "ah," "uh" or "aa" and the word apple or all or place when her
brain is ready to make those connections and not before, and when she
does, she will own it. She comes a little bit closer to this week by
week, month by month and year by year. She asks for help when she needs
it, enjoys being read to, likes practicing every once in a while. Each
little bit, if my oldest daughter is any indication, creates connections
that will finally make reading itself relatively easy once it all
clicks. The process itself can be long but it doesn't have to be
difficult if outside sources don't make it so.
Children naturally encounter the alphabet, language and the written
word. They will naturally begin to make those connections and ask
questions when they're curious. Numbers are no different. Facilitating
means getting them out in the world, bringing the world to them,
answering their questions and following their lead. We have alphabet
children's books around the house that we've picked up over the years,
one of which is one of Julia's favorite books. She loves to hear it, has
it mostly memorized--all of this is part of the process. We periodically
pick up alphabet books from the library and read them--part of the
process. What we don't do is sit down daily, weekly or monthly to do
some "letter work" because Jules is six and needs to learn to read.
Just last night, Emily wanted to direct a short film, and she enlisted
all of us for particular parts. She wanted Jules to play the monster's
victim, but Jules didn't want to be a victim. Em said she'd be right
back with Julia's lines for her "scream time"--a really great double
entendre though she was really meaning "screen time." Jules called after
her, "But I can't read!" Em came back in with Julia's
line--"Aaaaa!"--and showed her how to "read" it. Another connecting moment.
I was just sharing over at AlwaysUnschooled that I have a saying for dh
or other doubters--"Curriculum happens." I just shrug off comments about
how my kids will learn with "Curriculum happens," and I share about all
the learning connections kids make over time. It doesn't happen in a
single week or a single month, but over time curriculum does happen,
which is why boxed curriculum and schools are so unnecessary and
artificial. Kids, over time, will likely encounter all those ridiculous
things that E.D. Hirsch outlines in his _What Your x Grader Needs to
Know_ books, minus a few poems or songs or stories here and there. When
Em was describing her movie to me last night she said it was going to be
"like that story about the boy and the girl who loved each other but
their families fought all the time--you know..." Romeo and Juliet was
what she meant. Shakespeare. Life creates learning moments and
connections and cultural literacy--we don't need the Hirsch's or Bennets
to do it for us.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
> I know I probabaly sound over-anxious, I tend to be. But if you canIt is all so exciting and somewhat intimidating, isn't it? We want to do
> tell me how you all work with you littlest ones...
everything *right*, yet it's so hard to sort through all the right
answers offered out there. Just living and being and breathing and
loving your young children will be getting it right. Pat Farenga (I'm
assuming that's the newer guy you referred to) isn't, as I understand
it, unschooling as many on this list would define it, and the first
thing that will be helpful is learning how to breathe through the desire
to compare your children with anyone. It's no more helpful or meaningful
now than it was when they were learning to roll over for the first time.
Spending a lot of time just reading here at this list, at Sandra's site,
at Joyce's new website will help you think through and sort out all the
nuances between teaching and facilitating. There's also the
AlwaysUnschooled list where there are many parents discussing how to
unschool little ones--under age 8 or so--which you might find really
helpful, and you can check out my website linked below and my blog
linked off there to see what unschooling looks like in our home (mine
are 8, 6 and 5).
I remember about 4.5 years ago I thought it was so great that my
youngest daughter, then about 2.5, could sing the abc song. We were just
moving back East from Albuquerque, NM and hadn't seen family for a
while, and they made such a big deal when they came to visit that she
could sing the abc song. That was back when I was really beginning to
seriously read and *talk* about homeschooling, so it was like a huge
justification as I saw it. Well, as my older child got less interested
in singing the song, Julia gradually forgot it. She's been slower, too,
to learn the letters and their sounds than my oldest, who's just
deciphering how to read now.
When Julia learned the song, it had little to nothing to do with the
actual alphabet and certainly nothing to do with reading, pre-reading or
reading readiness--whatever schools want to call it. She will make the
connections between the word "Aaa" and the letter "A" or "a" and the
sounds "ah," "uh" or "aa" and the word apple or all or place when her
brain is ready to make those connections and not before, and when she
does, she will own it. She comes a little bit closer to this week by
week, month by month and year by year. She asks for help when she needs
it, enjoys being read to, likes practicing every once in a while. Each
little bit, if my oldest daughter is any indication, creates connections
that will finally make reading itself relatively easy once it all
clicks. The process itself can be long but it doesn't have to be
difficult if outside sources don't make it so.
Children naturally encounter the alphabet, language and the written
word. They will naturally begin to make those connections and ask
questions when they're curious. Numbers are no different. Facilitating
means getting them out in the world, bringing the world to them,
answering their questions and following their lead. We have alphabet
children's books around the house that we've picked up over the years,
one of which is one of Julia's favorite books. She loves to hear it, has
it mostly memorized--all of this is part of the process. We periodically
pick up alphabet books from the library and read them--part of the
process. What we don't do is sit down daily, weekly or monthly to do
some "letter work" because Jules is six and needs to learn to read.
Just last night, Emily wanted to direct a short film, and she enlisted
all of us for particular parts. She wanted Jules to play the monster's
victim, but Jules didn't want to be a victim. Em said she'd be right
back with Julia's lines for her "scream time"--a really great double
entendre though she was really meaning "screen time." Jules called after
her, "But I can't read!" Em came back in with Julia's
line--"Aaaaa!"--and showed her how to "read" it. Another connecting moment.
I was just sharing over at AlwaysUnschooled that I have a saying for dh
or other doubters--"Curriculum happens." I just shrug off comments about
how my kids will learn with "Curriculum happens," and I share about all
the learning connections kids make over time. It doesn't happen in a
single week or a single month, but over time curriculum does happen,
which is why boxed curriculum and schools are so unnecessary and
artificial. Kids, over time, will likely encounter all those ridiculous
things that E.D. Hirsch outlines in his _What Your x Grader Needs to
Know_ books, minus a few poems or songs or stories here and there. When
Em was describing her movie to me last night she said it was going to be
"like that story about the boy and the girl who loved each other but
their families fought all the time--you know..." Romeo and Juliet was
what she meant. Shakespeare. Life creates learning moments and
connections and cultural literacy--we don't need the Hirsch's or Bennets
to do it for us.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
Danielle Conger
KathrynJB@... wrote:
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
> In general, no I don't think you need to be teaching her the alphabet.Yes, one of my absolute favorites!
> However, the book Chicka Chicka Boom Boom by Bill Martin is the
> coolest thing.
> Forget the alphabet, it's the rhythm. Amazing to read, and if you can
> find the
> tape with Ray Charles reading it...well, forget the kids you'll love
> it. So,
> yeah, get this book... "A told B and B told C, 'I'll meet you at the
> top of the
> coconut tree."
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/14/05 11:56:58 PM, penley75@... writes:
tape called "Sounds like Fun" with an alphabet song they liked. Singing the
alphabet if the kid's into it seems fun, but "REPEATING" the alphabet? Just
saying the letters? eeyew.
What's the good of her reconizing letters "early"--sooner?
Have things around you that include alphabet books or toys or songs and have
magnetic fridge letters or alphabet puzzles, and she'll pick it up as part of
everyday life. If you have an everyday life without any alphabet toys or
fun, you can change that easily.
-=-I was waiting to see if, like in Holt's books, she just goes straight
to reading someday.-=-
She won't go straight to reading knowing the alphabet. It's not "straight,"
it's meandering through a rich life.
-=- I feel like an idiot
telling people I'm homeschooling (they haven't ever heard the term
UNschooling) and then my 3 year old can't say the alphabet, and
everyone else's can...-=-
Would your three year old be in school if you weren't "homeschooling"? Why
can't you just say she's at home with you? Why can't you just say "She's not
old enough for school, and we're planning to homeschool when she is"?
-=-Do I get certain counting bars so she can play with them, or just
wait until she asks how many of something there is?-=-
Neither.
Discuss how many in the course of your everyday life. Have things she can
play with (cuisenaire rods if you want, but there are lots of counting things
besides those--Duplo, blocks, pipe cleaners, dice).
Where do the "just wait" ideas come from? Live a happy, fun-filled,
conversation-and-discovery-filled life.
-=-Do I correct her
when she miscounts as toddlers will (by just repeating the order
correctly, not meanly or implying she's wrong) or do I correct her
when she makes up the words on a page and point to the right word and
tell her what it is? Or is this too much teaching?
-=-
You could count on your fingers if you think she'd be interested in the right
order, but she's not hurting anything by counting wrong. She's just little.
If she makes up the words on a page and is having fun doing it, maybe ask
her a question about her story. Get into her reading instead of letting her
know it's "wrong." If you're taking turns reading, let her read a while, and
then you read what's really there, and give her a turn, and you read the next
page, etc. maybe. IF she's having fun.
-=-One thing that really intimidated me was in the book Teach Your Own,
the author (not Holt, the newer guy) mentioned that their youngest
could count by 2's forever and by 5's to 100 by the time she went to
kindergarten (by her insistence until she got bored.)-=-
All three of the Farenga's kids have been in and out of school. John Holt
didn't have any children. There's good theoretical information in that book,
but there are people here whose children are REALLY truly living unschooling
lives.
-=-"Man, should I be doing something different?" I just don't
see how my kid will one day ask, "How do you count by 2's?" when they
don't even know what it is? So how does one so young learn to want to
learn specific things like that?-=-
They don't want to learn to count by twos, but they might want to play games.
If you take turns counting and you do all the odd numbers and she does all
the even numbers (IF she's having fun) that might be a way to talk about it.
Lining something up in pairs (blocks, dice, cookies, pretzel sticks, rocks
in the yard) might be a way to get to it. Messing with concepts should also
be an ongoing thing---a little one day, a little more in a week or a month or
an hour or when the kid brings it back up. You have years.
-=-Thanks for all your help. I can't wait to start this journey!-=-
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
That might help.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>We had alphabet books and my kids watched a lot of Sesame Street. We had a
> But I want to know if I should be doing things like repeating the
> alphabet to her? I know she could recognize the letters if I did,
>
tape called "Sounds like Fun" with an alphabet song they liked. Singing the
alphabet if the kid's into it seems fun, but "REPEATING" the alphabet? Just
saying the letters? eeyew.
What's the good of her reconizing letters "early"--sooner?
Have things around you that include alphabet books or toys or songs and have
magnetic fridge letters or alphabet puzzles, and she'll pick it up as part of
everyday life. If you have an everyday life without any alphabet toys or
fun, you can change that easily.
-=-I was waiting to see if, like in Holt's books, she just goes straight
to reading someday.-=-
She won't go straight to reading knowing the alphabet. It's not "straight,"
it's meandering through a rich life.
-=- I feel like an idiot
telling people I'm homeschooling (they haven't ever heard the term
UNschooling) and then my 3 year old can't say the alphabet, and
everyone else's can...-=-
Would your three year old be in school if you weren't "homeschooling"? Why
can't you just say she's at home with you? Why can't you just say "She's not
old enough for school, and we're planning to homeschool when she is"?
-=-Do I get certain counting bars so she can play with them, or just
wait until she asks how many of something there is?-=-
Neither.
Discuss how many in the course of your everyday life. Have things she can
play with (cuisenaire rods if you want, but there are lots of counting things
besides those--Duplo, blocks, pipe cleaners, dice).
Where do the "just wait" ideas come from? Live a happy, fun-filled,
conversation-and-discovery-filled life.
-=-Do I correct her
when she miscounts as toddlers will (by just repeating the order
correctly, not meanly or implying she's wrong) or do I correct her
when she makes up the words on a page and point to the right word and
tell her what it is? Or is this too much teaching?
-=-
You could count on your fingers if you think she'd be interested in the right
order, but she's not hurting anything by counting wrong. She's just little.
If she makes up the words on a page and is having fun doing it, maybe ask
her a question about her story. Get into her reading instead of letting her
know it's "wrong." If you're taking turns reading, let her read a while, and
then you read what's really there, and give her a turn, and you read the next
page, etc. maybe. IF she's having fun.
-=-One thing that really intimidated me was in the book Teach Your Own,
the author (not Holt, the newer guy) mentioned that their youngest
could count by 2's forever and by 5's to 100 by the time she went to
kindergarten (by her insistence until she got bored.)-=-
All three of the Farenga's kids have been in and out of school. John Holt
didn't have any children. There's good theoretical information in that book,
but there are people here whose children are REALLY truly living unschooling
lives.
-=-"Man, should I be doing something different?" I just don't
see how my kid will one day ask, "How do you count by 2's?" when they
don't even know what it is? So how does one so young learn to want to
learn specific things like that?-=-
They don't want to learn to count by twos, but they might want to play games.
If you take turns counting and you do all the odd numbers and she does all
the even numbers (IF she's having fun) that might be a way to talk about it.
Lining something up in pairs (blocks, dice, cookies, pretzel sticks, rocks
in the yard) might be a way to get to it. Messing with concepts should also
be an ongoing thing---a little one day, a little more in a week or a month or
an hour or when the kid brings it back up. You have years.
-=-Thanks for all your help. I can't wait to start this journey!-=-
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
That might help.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/05 6:42:39 AM, KathrynJB@... writes:
couple of other readings, but mine's the one that stuck.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671748947/104-7773643-8163952?v=glance
There it is at Amazon.
Some of the most beautiful picture books I've ever seen have been alphabet
books.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-However, the book Chicka Chicka Boom Boom by Bill Martin is the coolestYES! I bet my kids could still recite it. We have the tape, too, with a
> thing.
> Forget the alphabet, it's the rhythm. Amazing to read, and if you can find
> the
> tape with Ray Charles reading it...well, forget the kids you'll love it.-=-
>
couple of other readings, but mine's the one that stuck.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671748947/104-7773643-8163952?v=glance
There it is at Amazon.
Some of the most beautiful picture books I've ever seen have been alphabet
books.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/05 7:10:16 AM, debra.rossing@... writes:
We collected on one tape our favorite alphabet stuff. There's Lena Horn
singing it, and lots of animated things, and the African alphabet
Amazing Beautiful Creatures Dancing... that's beautiful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-I found that I prefer the Sesame Street "Do the Alphabet" video'sDoes it have lots of different alphabet songs?
> version of the alphabet song to the traditional one. It entirely
> bypasses the problematic 'elemenohpee' area by breaking it up
> differently. DS loved that video - lots of color and music and
> movement.-=-
>
We collected on one tape our favorite alphabet stuff. There's Lena Horn
singing it, and lots of animated things, and the African alphabet
Amazing Beautiful Creatures Dancing... that's beautiful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/05 7:09:47 AM, danielle.conger@... writes:
too literally and get spooked by the grade levels.
If there are any adults who would be clueless about the things that are in
those books, that would be a damned shame for those adults. (If the adults
were Americans, I mean; they have lots of American history and government.)
Having those books as idea sources isn't bad, if the "grade level" can be
dismissed. Having the Worldbook lists of curriculum aren't bad (ditto on the
grade levels).
-=- Life creates learning moments and
connections and cultural literacy--we don't need the Hirsch's or Bennets
to do it for us.-=-
I agree live creates those moments, but it does happen sometimes that parents
are so damaged themselves, or so shut down, that their use of idea lists
could help their children. Not everyone is equally imaginative or open to ideas
or methods of setting the world aswirl.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-Kids, over time, will likely encounter all those ridiculousI really don't think those books are ridiculous. I think people read them
> things that E.D. Hirsch outlines in his _What Your x Grader Needs to
> Know_ books,-=-
>
too literally and get spooked by the grade levels.
If there are any adults who would be clueless about the things that are in
those books, that would be a damned shame for those adults. (If the adults
were Americans, I mean; they have lots of American history and government.)
Having those books as idea sources isn't bad, if the "grade level" can be
dismissed. Having the Worldbook lists of curriculum aren't bad (ditto on the
grade levels).
-=- Life creates learning moments and
connections and cultural literacy--we don't need the Hirsch's or Bennets
to do it for us.-=-
I agree live creates those moments, but it does happen sometimes that parents
are so damaged themselves, or so shut down, that their use of idea lists
could help their children. Not everyone is equally imaginative or open to ideas
or methods of setting the world aswirl.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/05 4:53:02 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
Big Sasquatch will only hide and make footprints in the snow, probably.
There are LOTS of lifers in prison, I bet, who knew their alphabets early.
The idea that there's a continuum leading to IT, the perfect future, and that
we MUST put our children on the straight and narrow one single path NOW is the
silliest myth ever. The real world is bigger than the universe itself, and
branches out in immeasurable directions.
Kirby could name letters before he knew how old he was. It was just the
infant version of a bar trick, like tying a cherry stem in a knot with your
tongue. It's not GOOD for anything at all, except making another person go "wow."
Letters don't need to be named by one year old children any more than
cherry stems need to be tied in knots.
If it's fun, on the other hand, then it's fun! Fun has a value.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-If they're showing off what littleThat's funny.
> Sasquatch can do, it's a way of voicing their relief that it's one
> less thing they have to worry about.-=-
>
Big Sasquatch will only hide and make footprints in the snow, probably.
There are LOTS of lifers in prison, I bet, who knew their alphabets early.
The idea that there's a continuum leading to IT, the perfect future, and that
we MUST put our children on the straight and narrow one single path NOW is the
silliest myth ever. The real world is bigger than the universe itself, and
branches out in immeasurable directions.
Kirby could name letters before he knew how old he was. It was just the
infant version of a bar trick, like tying a cherry stem in a knot with your
tongue. It's not GOOD for anything at all, except making another person go "wow."
Letters don't need to be named by one year old children any more than
cherry stems need to be tied in knots.
If it's fun, on the other hand, then it's fun! Fun has a value.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> -=-(A lot of this stuff comes up on Sesame Street too. But it's notKirby, Marty and I just lived and breathed Sesame Street for a few years. I
> necessary. Kathryn rarely watched and she's a perfectly fine 14 yo. :-)
> -=-
didn't mind. Kirby was into voice acting and puppetry, and Jim Henson and
Frank Oz were incredible examples.
When Holly came along and got old enough to say "I hate Big Bird," we sadly
turned it off, but there were other things for the boys and other things for
Holly. Then when she was nine or ten she discovered our Best of Sesame Street
tape and wanted to know ALL about all of it--the actors, the principles and
intents behind the show, the way it had evolved over the years. She was coming
at it from an analytical educational point of view, which was fun for me, and
I was a good source for her as I'd been studying education in college when
the show was new and being discussed and analyzed within that profession.
Same thing happened with Raffi. Kirby and Marty knew all the Raffi songs
when they were little and "Raffi in Concert" was a standard part of our get-well
kit when a kid was sick and moved to the couch with juice in one cup, water
in another, box of kleenex, favorite blanket, Raffi. But Holly: Raffi made
her sick. She rejected it whole.
A week and a half ago Holly (who'll be 14 in a couple of months) asked me to
download a song for her, she thought it might be Raffi, Bananaphone. I told
her I thought there was a cassette tape upstairs, told her where, I was
right, she found it. We were going out anyway so she took it in the car. I had
bought that used but about the time Holly said "no Raffi," so it had just been
set on that shelf not knowing it was waiting for Holly to request it
specially.
Her interest in this song came from a flash cartoon in which a character
hears it but his roommate doesn't and it drives him crazy. There's insanity and
death in the cartoon (cartoon death). But Holly just liked the song, and we
discussed the puns, the humor of "gramma-phone"/Gramophone" and whether that's
what caused him to write the song in the first place, about Raffi himself,
about Canadian songwriting, Francophones, American references in songs by a
Canadian songwriter, about the children's music market, long distance telephone
history and realities...
I didn't plan it. It came out of the swirl.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jacquie krauskopf
Sometimes the simplest is the best:
First off, your child is three. I had the hardest time realizing that the rest of the world is in a huge rush to out do each other that they push their kids into anything and everything just so they can say "My ____ learned his ABC's by age ___" and the poor kids don't have time to PLAY and be a child. I just read recently that if kids are not allowed to be kids now they will do it later. It is so hard not to get pulled into the world and jump on the band wagon. I decided that I want my child to have his childhood now and so I am letting him be a child before anything else so he can be an adult when he is suppose to be an adult. I remember my MIL telling me of a friend of hers grandkids that knew their ABC's by age two and I worried about this. I would stress and even take it out on my poor two- year-old at the time. Then I look at the big picture and realize that it will not say on his resume: "Potty trained by age 6 months and learned the ABC's by age 2". You will not hear the
person interviewing saying:
"I see it says here in your resume that you went to _______ daycare as a two -year-old and we're named 'first to potty train' could you tell me something about that?"
I believe all the pressure does is for the parents and grandparents to brag about the kid and nothing more. It is so hard to not fall into this though.
No, my son did not know all his ABC's by age two but last winter he made a volcano in the snow at age 4!
My 5 YO son Jonah is FINALLY getting somewhere. I just spent weeks doing the "letter of the week" thing and last week found out he did not "get" any of them I did! Yes he understood while we did it and so I thought he was learning but after a letter review I was surprised to find he did not pick up the ones I did it on. Yet suddenly he knew letters I have never told him anything about. So I know he is learning more without the hallabaloo. So I just read now.
Also, months ago I got these little stickers A-Z and put them on his toy cars and trucks. I intended on making games of playing with his toys. Then we moved to Texas and I had forgot about it. Then yesterday he found some of them and I brought them to me demanding I remove the stickers from his trucks as he does not like them. So I told him that he has to learn them before I remove them and so he is learning the ABC's that way.
As far as numbers go I started putting one number on the wall (written on paper plates) and we add one more daily and he counts to that one. Today we are up to number 37 and he loves to do this. I notice a definate improvement and he now counts a lot more. When we get up he tells he we need to do the numbers and he keeps reminding me if we don't. He use to count to 20, skipping 17 and now he does not skip any numbers.
Hope this helps,
Jacquie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
First off, your child is three. I had the hardest time realizing that the rest of the world is in a huge rush to out do each other that they push their kids into anything and everything just so they can say "My ____ learned his ABC's by age ___" and the poor kids don't have time to PLAY and be a child. I just read recently that if kids are not allowed to be kids now they will do it later. It is so hard not to get pulled into the world and jump on the band wagon. I decided that I want my child to have his childhood now and so I am letting him be a child before anything else so he can be an adult when he is suppose to be an adult. I remember my MIL telling me of a friend of hers grandkids that knew their ABC's by age two and I worried about this. I would stress and even take it out on my poor two- year-old at the time. Then I look at the big picture and realize that it will not say on his resume: "Potty trained by age 6 months and learned the ABC's by age 2". You will not hear the
person interviewing saying:
"I see it says here in your resume that you went to _______ daycare as a two -year-old and we're named 'first to potty train' could you tell me something about that?"
I believe all the pressure does is for the parents and grandparents to brag about the kid and nothing more. It is so hard to not fall into this though.
No, my son did not know all his ABC's by age two but last winter he made a volcano in the snow at age 4!
My 5 YO son Jonah is FINALLY getting somewhere. I just spent weeks doing the "letter of the week" thing and last week found out he did not "get" any of them I did! Yes he understood while we did it and so I thought he was learning but after a letter review I was surprised to find he did not pick up the ones I did it on. Yet suddenly he knew letters I have never told him anything about. So I know he is learning more without the hallabaloo. So I just read now.
Also, months ago I got these little stickers A-Z and put them on his toy cars and trucks. I intended on making games of playing with his toys. Then we moved to Texas and I had forgot about it. Then yesterday he found some of them and I brought them to me demanding I remove the stickers from his trucks as he does not like them. So I told him that he has to learn them before I remove them and so he is learning the ABC's that way.
As far as numbers go I started putting one number on the wall (written on paper plates) and we add one more daily and he counts to that one. Today we are up to number 37 and he loves to do this. I notice a definate improvement and he now counts a lot more. When we get up he tells he we need to do the numbers and he keeps reminding me if we don't. He use to count to 20, skipping 17 and now he does not skip any numbers.
Hope this helps,
Jacquie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
Please please read, "The Hurried Child" and "Misseducation" - both by
David Elkind.
-pam
David Elkind.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/14/05 11:56:58 PM, penley75@... writes:
However, I try to keep in mind that there are surely things that my children can do that those children can't. One child might know times tables at age 5, another might know the names of all the birds in the backyard, another might know the names and abilities of all 150 Pokemon, another might be making lots of money by helping out her elderly neighber, another might be really good at playing basketball, another made have made his own video game, another might have trained the family dog to do 30 tricks,...
Also, being a parent is not a contest to see how much your kids can learn or do academically or athletically or in any other way! People are born with different abilities and interests and need to follow their own path in life. Our job is to help our children find and follow their paths, not to force them along a path that another child might be taking and that looks better to the outside world.
Best of luck. It's great to see people starting on unschooling.
Rachael
> One thing that really intimidated meI am sometimes intimidated by hearing what other people children can do. And you do hear a lot of amazing things that unschooled children can do!
> was in the book Teach Your Own,
> the author (not Holt, the newer guy)
> mentioned that their youngest
> could count by 2's forever and by 5's
> to 100 by the time she went to
> kindergarten (by her insistence until she got bored.)
However, I try to keep in mind that there are surely things that my children can do that those children can't. One child might know times tables at age 5, another might know the names of all the birds in the backyard, another might know the names and abilities of all 150 Pokemon, another might be making lots of money by helping out her elderly neighber, another might be really good at playing basketball, another made have made his own video game, another might have trained the family dog to do 30 tricks,...
Also, being a parent is not a contest to see how much your kids can learn or do academically or athletically or in any other way! People are born with different abilities and interests and need to follow their own path in life. Our job is to help our children find and follow their paths, not to force them along a path that another child might be taking and that looks better to the outside world.
Best of luck. It's great to see people starting on unschooling.
Rachael
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
qzrwtnlp
and
wrtnlpmcvx
Which led us to a discussion of what vowels are and why they help
keep Mommy from spraining her tongue lol. Which led to a fun,
sometimes silly, discussion between me and DH about other languages
and how they are arranged (eastern European languages with lots of
consonants and French, which looks similar but is pronounced vowel
to vowel instead of consonant to consonant as in English). Not
directed at DS but just floating in the 'soup' around him.
accumulation of bits and connections over time that all of a sudden
pop into place. And then again it -may- be visible as a slow
meandering gradually picking up speed.
He'd ask and we'd answer (Is 7 odd or even? Not exactly sure what
touched off the idea of 'odd and even') Then he wanted to know how
we knew. So we made piles of stuff - pennies, M&Ms, crackers,
whatever was at hand - if we could make two same size piles, it was
even. If there were 'extras' it was odd. Then he started doing it in
his head, making two piles to see if a number was odd or even
(dividing by two). Then we got into more fun stuff one evening while
playing with numbers - if you add two odd numbers, the result is
even. If you add two even numbers, the result is even. BUT if you
add one even and one odd, the result is odd. Not exhaustively, not
extendedly, just for fun for a while.
--Deb
>And be prepared to patiently work on pronouncing things like:
>and have
> magnetic fridge letters
qzrwtnlp
and
wrtnlpmcvx
Which led us to a discussion of what vowels are and why they help
keep Mommy from spraining her tongue lol. Which led to a fun,
sometimes silly, discussion between me and DH about other languages
and how they are arranged (eastern European languages with lots of
consonants and French, which looks similar but is pronounced vowel
to vowel instead of consonant to consonant as in English). Not
directed at DS but just floating in the 'soup' around him.
> -=-I was waiting to see if, like in Holt's books, she just goesIt -may- look like 0 to 60 straight to reading but it's actually the
>straight
> to reading someday.-=-
>
> She won't go straight to reading knowing the alphabet. It's
>not "straight,"
> it's meandering through a rich life.
accumulation of bits and connections over time that all of a sudden
pop into place. And then again it -may- be visible as a slow
meandering gradually picking up speed.
> If you take turns counting and you do all the odd numbers andDS has been exploring odd and even over the last 6 months or so.
>she does all
> the even numbers (IF she's having fun) that might be a way to talk
>about it.
> Messing with concepts should also
> be an ongoing thing---a little one day, a little more in a week or
>a month or
> an hour or when the kid brings it back up. You have years.
He'd ask and we'd answer (Is 7 odd or even? Not exactly sure what
touched off the idea of 'odd and even') Then he wanted to know how
we knew. So we made piles of stuff - pennies, M&Ms, crackers,
whatever was at hand - if we could make two same size piles, it was
even. If there were 'extras' it was odd. Then he started doing it in
his head, making two piles to see if a number was odd or even
(dividing by two). Then we got into more fun stuff one evening while
playing with numbers - if you add two odd numbers, the result is
even. If you add two even numbers, the result is even. BUT if you
add one even and one odd, the result is odd. Not exhaustively, not
extendedly, just for fun for a while.
--Deb
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], jacquie krauskopf
<kraus12@s...> wrote:
cars and trucks and he doesn't like the stickers. If your DH decided
you needed to learn Spanish (or French, German, Creole, Swahili
whatever) and stuck stickers all over your favorite baking pans (or
china doll collection or gardening tools or sewing kit or whatever)
and said they had to stay there until you learned it, how would you
feel - about learning it? about DH? Odds are you'd short-term
memorize it to get rid of the stickers and maybe remember some of it
but you'd definitely remember what DH did to your stuff and that
would muck up your relationship.
Kids learn the alphabet all the time without that kind of coercive
action. There are bunches of us here (I've got a 7 yr old DS for
one). It really does happen in real life to live people.
--Deb
<kraus12@s...> wrote:
> Also, months ago I got these little stickers A-Z and put them onPlease, please take the stickers off right away. Those are -his-
>his toy cars and trucks. I intended on making games of playing with
>his toys. Then we moved to Texas and I had forgot about it. Then
>yesterday he found some of them and I brought them to me demanding
>I remove the stickers from his trucks as he does not like them. So
>I told him that he has to learn them before I remove them and so he
>is learning the ABC's that way.
cars and trucks and he doesn't like the stickers. If your DH decided
you needed to learn Spanish (or French, German, Creole, Swahili
whatever) and stuck stickers all over your favorite baking pans (or
china doll collection or gardening tools or sewing kit or whatever)
and said they had to stay there until you learned it, how would you
feel - about learning it? about DH? Odds are you'd short-term
memorize it to get rid of the stickers and maybe remember some of it
but you'd definitely remember what DH did to your stuff and that
would muck up your relationship.
Kids learn the alphabet all the time without that kind of coercive
action. There are bunches of us here (I've got a 7 yr old DS for
one). It really does happen in real life to live people.
--Deb
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], rachael.vernooy@c...
wrote:
all 150 though), as well as the various weapon sets in 007 video
games, the various abilities and such of different 'types' in
StarCraft (Protoss, Zurg, and Terran), and all sorts of other stuff.
He was helping me learn Age of Empires II last night - I was doing
the 'learning scenarios' and still not doing well so he was coaching
me. I did okay until about the 4th or 5th scenario - at which point,
my soldiers broke through a stockade to attack the enemy and then got
wiped out by the archers. Ah well. He told me I did pretty good for a
first time :-)
--Deb
wrote:
> another might know the names and abilities of all 150 Pokemon,LOL I can relate to this one - DS knows lots of them (don't know about
> Rachael
all 150 though), as well as the various weapon sets in 007 video
games, the various abilities and such of different 'types' in
StarCraft (Protoss, Zurg, and Terran), and all sorts of other stuff.
He was helping me learn Age of Empires II last night - I was doing
the 'learning scenarios' and still not doing well so he was coaching
me. I did okay until about the 4th or 5th scenario - at which point,
my soldiers broke through a stockade to attack the enemy and then got
wiped out by the archers. Ah well. He told me I did pretty good for a
first time :-)
--Deb
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 15, 2005, at 11:15 AM, jacquie krauskopf wrote:
until that last bit. Please do take off the stickers and treat his
request with respect. Think how you'd feel if your husband put
Japanese kanji stickers all over some of your favorite objects and
said he wouldn't take them off until you'd memorized them.
He will learn by living life. He's also learning that letters are
annoying when you have to learn them to get the stickers off your own
possessions. And he's learning that his feelings aren't nearly as
important as what Mommy wants him to do.
learn to count.
Joyce Fetteroll
New old stuff at: http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Then yesterday he found some of them and I brought them to meI was enjoying your revelation of how he learns just by living life
> demanding I remove the stickers from his trucks as he does not like
> them. So I told him that he has to learn them before I remove them
> and so he is learning the ABC's that way.
until that last bit. Please do take off the stickers and treat his
request with respect. Think how you'd feel if your husband put
Japanese kanji stickers all over some of your favorite objects and
said he wouldn't take them off until you'd memorized them.
He will learn by living life. He's also learning that letters are
annoying when you have to learn them to get the stickers off your own
possessions. And he's learning that his feelings aren't nearly as
important as what Mommy wants him to do.
> As far as numbers go I started putting one number on the wallIt sounds like a fun game for him. But it isn't necessary in order to
> (written on paper plates) and we add one more daily and he counts
> to that one. Today we are up to number 37 and he loves to do this.
> I notice a definate improvement and he now counts a lot more. When
> we get up he tells he we need to do the numbers and he keeps
> reminding me if we don't. He use to count to 20, skipping 17 and
> now he does not skip any numbers.
learn to count.
Joyce Fetteroll
New old stuff at: http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
"Miseducation" is the book by David Elkind! -- "Miss Education" -
not what I meant! <BEG>
not what I meant! <BEG>
On Sep 15, 2005, at 8:54 AM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
> "Misseducation"
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/05 11:01:29 AM, debra.rossing@... writes:
vowels. "I'd like to buy some vowels!" Wheel of Fortune helped too!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-And be prepared to patiently work on pronouncing things like:Right! That's how my kids learned what vowels were. I'd ask for more
> qzrwtnlp
> and
> wrtnlpmcvx
> Which led us to a discussion of what vowels are -=-
>
vowels. "I'd like to buy some vowels!" Wheel of Fortune helped too!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/05 11:07:08 AM, debra.rossing@... writes:
Don't give the alphabet a negative history for him.
You really don't want his learning to be associated with resentment of you.
Your relationship is more important than the alphabet.
Joy helps learning a thousand times more than facts do.
Facts will come. Joy can be snuffed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-Please, please take the stickers off right away. Those are -his-I agree.
> cars and trucks -=-
>
Don't give the alphabet a negative history for him.
You really don't want his learning to be associated with resentment of you.
Your relationship is more important than the alphabet.
Joy helps learning a thousand times more than facts do.
Facts will come. Joy can be snuffed.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Muzyczka
At 01:03 PM 9/15/2005, you wrote:
could be for a child a certain age. I find myself either not giving enough
info (and he sorta looks at me funny and then I have to do my answer
over -grin--) or too much info (and he just tunes me out.) Again, it's
not a hard and fast thing, just a "ok, this is ROUGHLY where a nine year
old is" kind of thing.
Plus they remind me of the breadth of info out there. Oh, yeah, and we
could be talking about this part of history, I like that stuff, and oh,
hey, this bit of science, I'd forgotten that....
Kel
"After all," he said, "$5000 could buy a lot of hair dye and crossbow bolts."
>Subject:I agree, I've bought a bunch and found them very interesting and useful.
>
>
>In a message dated 9/15/05 7:09:47 AM, danielle.conger@... writes:
>
>
> > -=-Kids, over time, will likely encounter all those ridiculous
> > things that E.D. Hirsch outlines in his _What Your x Grader Needs to
> > Know_ books,-=-
> >
>I really don't think those books are ridiculous. I think people read them
>too literally and get spooked by the grade levels.
>Having those books as idea sources isn't bad, if the "grade level" can beWhat I found them most useful for is a reminder of what "just enough info"
>dismissed. Having the Worldbook lists of curriculum aren't bad (ditto on
>the
>grade levels).
>
>Sandra
could be for a child a certain age. I find myself either not giving enough
info (and he sorta looks at me funny and then I have to do my answer
over -grin--) or too much info (and he just tunes me out.) Again, it's
not a hard and fast thing, just a "ok, this is ROUGHLY where a nine year
old is" kind of thing.
Plus they remind me of the breadth of info out there. Oh, yeah, and we
could be talking about this part of history, I like that stuff, and oh,
hey, this bit of science, I'd forgotten that....
Kel
"After all," he said, "$5000 could buy a lot of hair dye and crossbow bolts."
Robyn Coburn
<<<<< Em was describing her movie to me last night she said it was going to
be
"like that story about the boy and the girl who loved each other but
their families fought all the time--you know..." Romeo and Juliet was
what she meant. Shakespeare. Life creates learning moments and
connections and cultural literacy--we don't need the Hirsch's or Bennets
to do it for us.>>>>
Did you actually film (or videotape) it?
Jayn is very interested in Romeo and Juliet. Her interest stemmed from
getting a truly beautiful Juliet ballerina Barbie, and she wanted me to
elaborate on the brief description of the story on the box.
Remarkably enough we are (slowly) reading the play now, in snatches, but she
wants me to tell her the story often.
Time to find a movie version for her to see.
Anyhow my point was that character toys can be a way to a myriad of cool
connections also. Don't focus only on toys that some manufacturer has
labeled "educational".
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.0/103 - Release Date: 9/15/2005
be
"like that story about the boy and the girl who loved each other but
their families fought all the time--you know..." Romeo and Juliet was
what she meant. Shakespeare. Life creates learning moments and
connections and cultural literacy--we don't need the Hirsch's or Bennets
to do it for us.>>>>
Did you actually film (or videotape) it?
Jayn is very interested in Romeo and Juliet. Her interest stemmed from
getting a truly beautiful Juliet ballerina Barbie, and she wanted me to
elaborate on the brief description of the story on the box.
Remarkably enough we are (slowly) reading the play now, in snatches, but she
wants me to tell her the story often.
Time to find a movie version for her to see.
Anyhow my point was that character toys can be a way to a myriad of cool
connections also. Don't focus only on toys that some manufacturer has
labeled "educational".
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.0/103 - Release Date: 9/15/2005
Danielle Conger
Kelly Muzyczka wrote:
juxtaposed with the absolute certainty with which Hirsch states that
3rd, 4th or whatever graders need that particular information. The idea
that knowledge needs to be combined in particular ways and learned at a
particular age or else--I don't know or else what; or else we're all
hopelessly culturally illiterate and stupid?--is what I find just plain
silly about them. Well, that and the seriousness with which Hirsch (and
many others) takes it all.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
> > > -=-Kids, over time, will likely encounter all those ridiculousWhat I find totally ridiculous is the random quality of the contents
> > > things that E.D. Hirsch outlines in his _What Your x Grader Needs to
> > > Know_ books,-=-
> > >
> >I really don't think those books are ridiculous. I think people
> read them
> >too literally and get spooked by the grade levels.
>
>
> I agree, I've bought a bunch and found them very interesting and useful.
juxtaposed with the absolute certainty with which Hirsch states that
3rd, 4th or whatever graders need that particular information. The idea
that knowledge needs to be combined in particular ways and learned at a
particular age or else--I don't know or else what; or else we're all
hopelessly culturally illiterate and stupid?--is what I find just plain
silly about them. Well, that and the seriousness with which Hirsch (and
many others) takes it all.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
prism7513
Thank you all so much for the reassurnce that letting my daughter
play for now is okay. The only thing I limit right now is all-day-
long TV watching, though she HAS picked up several things from TV
shows alone (mostly disney and nick jr.). I wish we got local
channels, though. Our anntenae doesn't pick up PBS or most of the
regular channels, for that matter, and satellite won't offer local
channels in our area (too rural.)
But it both makes me proud and guilty when she knows something that
I'm not even sure where she learned it from. I'm proud because she's
picking things up, but I feel it's MY responsability to make sure she
gets her info since I'm the one keeping her out of school. (Her dad
is too, it's just he's at school himself all day teaching, so I'm the
one home most of the time, of course.)
Anyway, I'll definately look for all the books you've mentioned,
especially Chicca Chicca Boom Boom!
And the comment about fun having value...that's one of the main
reasons I wanted to try unschooling. I have always had one theory in
my own learning experiences, and when I controlled my own choice of
what to learn (ie Science Fair projects or reports) I always said
they had to be fun. I did optical illusions, topology (the kind where
you turn a donut into a coffee cup), subliminal messages, etc.
I actually look forward to learning things for REAL this time around,
when the kids are older and doing more hands on stuff in the more
complicated subjects. I can't remember most of my schooled facts, the
other reason I'm unschooling.
Deb
play for now is okay. The only thing I limit right now is all-day-
long TV watching, though she HAS picked up several things from TV
shows alone (mostly disney and nick jr.). I wish we got local
channels, though. Our anntenae doesn't pick up PBS or most of the
regular channels, for that matter, and satellite won't offer local
channels in our area (too rural.)
But it both makes me proud and guilty when she knows something that
I'm not even sure where she learned it from. I'm proud because she's
picking things up, but I feel it's MY responsability to make sure she
gets her info since I'm the one keeping her out of school. (Her dad
is too, it's just he's at school himself all day teaching, so I'm the
one home most of the time, of course.)
Anyway, I'll definately look for all the books you've mentioned,
especially Chicca Chicca Boom Boom!
And the comment about fun having value...that's one of the main
reasons I wanted to try unschooling. I have always had one theory in
my own learning experiences, and when I controlled my own choice of
what to learn (ie Science Fair projects or reports) I always said
they had to be fun. I did optical illusions, topology (the kind where
you turn a donut into a coffee cup), subliminal messages, etc.
I actually look forward to learning things for REAL this time around,
when the kids are older and doing more hands on stuff in the more
complicated subjects. I can't remember most of my schooled facts, the
other reason I'm unschooling.
Deb
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/05 1:04:35 PM, danielle.conger@... writes:
Ridiculous is a harsh word. It means clearly worthy of the ridicule of all.
By "random quality" do you mean the seeming random selection, or the
unevenness of the quality of presentation? Because both questions are clarified if
you read the introductions and know the overall purpose of the cultural
literacy ideals he was originally after, even before those books were created.
-=-juxtaposed with the absolute certainty with which Hirsch states that
3rd, 4th or whatever graders need that particular information.-=-
He and his supporters had in mind a set of knowledge without which (and I
agree, honestly) an adult is disadvantaged in learning more on his own, on having
an understanding of other things he will read in literature, magazines, see
in movies, hear on TV. If a person doesn't know some basic literature and
history, passing references become meaningless.
-=-The idea
that knowledge needs to be combined in particular ways and learned at a
particular age or else--I don't know or else what-=-
Or else they might not understand the things they would be learning in a
district or state which might have adopted Hirsch's outline for curriculum. I
think it's better than what most districts use, because he's looking at the
literature that's out there, and the idioms in English that would be better
understood if people knew enough of the background of the culture to get them all.
We don't use a curriculum here at all, but I would be ashamed if my kids knew
no folklore, no fairy tales, nothing whatsoever of Bible stories, and if I
had somehow indicated that it wasn't worth knowing the meaning of cliches and
aphorisms older than anyone now living.
I think first grade classes would be WAY better off discussing "A bird in the
hand is worth two in the bush" than coloring pictures of autumn leaves
(although they could do both at once). I think they'd be better off hearing Three
Billy Goats Gruff than some recently-written story.
Common experiences (a cultural literacy) are important if people are going to
understand others without bafflement.
If every state has a different curriculum, and within that every district,
kids who move from school to school are not getting "the same education."
Whether that's good or not, it's a serious consideration for those who are
concerning themselves at the philosophical level (and planning levels) of public
education.
Hirsch had an idea for a better way to plan a curriculum, and had (has) a
purpose that I don't think is ridiculous.
As to the evenness of the presentation (if that's what you meant), the
stories are presented there just in case someone isn't familiar, but he recommends
finding better versions of those or anything else in the books. The books are
intended to be checklists, not sources of literature or history or musical
education or math. They have the barest summary and he hoped people would go
to REAL sources.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-What I find totally ridiculous is the random quality of the contents-=-That one totally ridicules something doesn't make it "totally ridiculous."
>
Ridiculous is a harsh word. It means clearly worthy of the ridicule of all.
By "random quality" do you mean the seeming random selection, or the
unevenness of the quality of presentation? Because both questions are clarified if
you read the introductions and know the overall purpose of the cultural
literacy ideals he was originally after, even before those books were created.
-=-juxtaposed with the absolute certainty with which Hirsch states that
3rd, 4th or whatever graders need that particular information.-=-
He and his supporters had in mind a set of knowledge without which (and I
agree, honestly) an adult is disadvantaged in learning more on his own, on having
an understanding of other things he will read in literature, magazines, see
in movies, hear on TV. If a person doesn't know some basic literature and
history, passing references become meaningless.
-=-The idea
that knowledge needs to be combined in particular ways and learned at a
particular age or else--I don't know or else what-=-
Or else they might not understand the things they would be learning in a
district or state which might have adopted Hirsch's outline for curriculum. I
think it's better than what most districts use, because he's looking at the
literature that's out there, and the idioms in English that would be better
understood if people knew enough of the background of the culture to get them all.
We don't use a curriculum here at all, but I would be ashamed if my kids knew
no folklore, no fairy tales, nothing whatsoever of Bible stories, and if I
had somehow indicated that it wasn't worth knowing the meaning of cliches and
aphorisms older than anyone now living.
I think first grade classes would be WAY better off discussing "A bird in the
hand is worth two in the bush" than coloring pictures of autumn leaves
(although they could do both at once). I think they'd be better off hearing Three
Billy Goats Gruff than some recently-written story.
Common experiences (a cultural literacy) are important if people are going to
understand others without bafflement.
If every state has a different curriculum, and within that every district,
kids who move from school to school are not getting "the same education."
Whether that's good or not, it's a serious consideration for those who are
concerning themselves at the philosophical level (and planning levels) of public
education.
Hirsch had an idea for a better way to plan a curriculum, and had (has) a
purpose that I don't think is ridiculous.
As to the evenness of the presentation (if that's what you meant), the
stories are presented there just in case someone isn't familiar, but he recommends
finding better versions of those or anything else in the books. The books are
intended to be checklists, not sources of literature or history or musical
education or math. They have the barest summary and he hoped people would go
to REAL sources.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> -=-But it both makes me proud and guilty when she knows something thatNeither guilt nor pride is the best way to go.
> I'm not even sure where she learned it from.-=-
>
You could take encouragement or confidence from the fact that she will learn
from everything around her.
-=-I'm proud because she's
picking things up, but I feel it's MY responsability to make sure she
gets her info since I'm the one keeping her out of school.-=-
You won't be her only source of information, nor should you hope to be. But
you can keep finding ways to make input available to her.
-=-I actually look forward to learning things for REAL this time around,
when the kids are older and doing more hands on stuff in the more
complicated subjects.-=-
Why wait?
All learning is real. If you "learned" something you've forgotten, you
didn't really learn it. You held it in your temporary storage memory until after
the test and then dumped it. That's not learning. Yet it's what school
bases itself around--teaching to the test instead of encouraging real lifelong
learning.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/2005 9:24:39 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
We had alphabet books and my kids watched a lot of Sesame Street. We had
a
tape called "Sounds like Fun" with an alphabet song they liked. Singing the
alphabet if the kid's into it seems fun, but "REPEATING" the alphabet?
Just
saying the letters? eeyew.
What's the good of her reconizing letters "early"--sooner?
~~!~
My kids, even the non-unschooled one, learned the letters as a consequence
of boredom or killing time while waiting in public places. I wasn't one of
those moms who kept the diaper bag full of toys and little containers of
Cheerios. We made do.
That means if we were in the pediatrician's office, the best distraction I
had for impatient waiting were the things around me. The animal shaped letter
poster on the wall, the Great Bible Stories book that seems to be in every
waiting room I've ever been in. If we were in the car dealer while Daddy was
negotiating the deal, the giant letters on the front windows were good for a
distraction. The alphabet song, along with the Itsy-Bitsy Spider song, is
good for a few minutes waiting for the pee to come when sitting on the potty at
the gas station. I sang songs when they were learning to use the potty
because it killed the time and took their mind off any kind of reluctance or
disgust at the public restroom. We sang all the time for everything, really, and
still do. Any song we could think of or make up, and the alphabe song was
one of those.
I like the song. I think it's valueable, but not more valueable than
Itsy-Bitsy Spider. I think learning the letters through the song, with no
particular goal in mind, as if letters were like Legos or Lincoln Logs, is right in
line with a wholesome unschooling life.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
We had alphabet books and my kids watched a lot of Sesame Street. We had
a
tape called "Sounds like Fun" with an alphabet song they liked. Singing the
alphabet if the kid's into it seems fun, but "REPEATING" the alphabet?
Just
saying the letters? eeyew.
What's the good of her reconizing letters "early"--sooner?
~~!~
My kids, even the non-unschooled one, learned the letters as a consequence
of boredom or killing time while waiting in public places. I wasn't one of
those moms who kept the diaper bag full of toys and little containers of
Cheerios. We made do.
That means if we were in the pediatrician's office, the best distraction I
had for impatient waiting were the things around me. The animal shaped letter
poster on the wall, the Great Bible Stories book that seems to be in every
waiting room I've ever been in. If we were in the car dealer while Daddy was
negotiating the deal, the giant letters on the front windows were good for a
distraction. The alphabet song, along with the Itsy-Bitsy Spider song, is
good for a few minutes waiting for the pee to come when sitting on the potty at
the gas station. I sang songs when they were learning to use the potty
because it killed the time and took their mind off any kind of reluctance or
disgust at the public restroom. We sang all the time for everything, really, and
still do. Any song we could think of or make up, and the alphabe song was
one of those.
I like the song. I think it's valueable, but not more valueable than
Itsy-Bitsy Spider. I think learning the letters through the song, with no
particular goal in mind, as if letters were like Legos or Lincoln Logs, is right in
line with a wholesome unschooling life.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]