Kim J. Flowers

I need some advice on what to do with my kiddos. My kids are 8,7,5 and 8
months. My concern is really with the older ones. We have been unschooling
for a long time. Though periodically we have tried using a curriculum, but
always stop after like 2 weeks.
My problem is that though my 8 year old does seek out some information, they
really just play most of the time. I feel like I am not doing what it takes
to help them gain their education. Do any of you have any suggestions for
me as far as encouraging learning without forcing it on them?
On a daily basis when the kids are doing nothing but playing pokemon cards
or pretending in some way, is there a way for me to suggest things to them?
I kind of feel lost and without a plan.
I am not sure if you even understand where my concern is, but I really do
need some advice.
What do you guys do on a daily basis to "encourage" learning? Or do you do
nothing and hope that eventually the kids will come around and want to learn
something?
We do read to the kids regularly (when they will sit for it...and when they
won't...then what?) Other than that, I am sitting around hoping they ask me
questions or want to learn or do something.
If I was to die today and my kids were put in public school, it would really
give homeschoolers a bad name. My 8 year old is very smart, but doesn't
know alot. He can read and write (in chicken scratch) and he can do basic
math like adding and subtracting and a little multiplying and he also does
algebra (as much as he can without knowing how to divide). How do I go
about teaching him how to write and do math and science and stuff? He
writes letters to his penpal, but his letters are very messy and hard to
read and they don't make sense. For example, he will write "hi how are you
doing? I have a lizard and a snake. I am sending you a pokemon card.
Bye." And that is the extent of his letter. I don't want to critisize his
efforts, but I certainly don't want him to write letters to someone that
make no sense.
My 7 year old, does nothing. Has ZERO desire to learn anything or ask
questions or anything. He can read, but not really good, and has basic math
skills like adding and subtracting. He is a real brain child when it comes
to math, but won't do anything with it unless we make him sit down or he is
correcting his brother that made a mistake in something.
My 5 year old, once and a while will pull out a math workbook and do 2 or 3
weeks worth of math at a time, when he feels like it. Other than that,
unless I tell him to sit down so we can do this or that, he won't do
anything.

Anyway, I will stop now cause this is really long, but I wanted to kind of
give you guys a little detail so maybe someone can help address my concerns.
If you have any questions, please ask. I really look forward to your
responses.

Kim Flowers - Wife to Nolan for 9 years
Stay at Home Mama of 4 wonderful boys
"The way to achieve inner peace is to finish all the things you've started."

So, today I have finished a bottle of vodka, A bottle of red wine, a bottle
of Jack Daniel's, my Prozac, a small box of chocolates and a quart of Rocky
Road. You have no idea how good I feel."



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/2/05 4:53:54 PM, kim@... writes:


> We have been unschooling
> for a long time.  Though periodically we have tried using a curriculum, but
> always stop after like 2 weeks.
>

You've only been unschooling since the last time you stopped using a
curriculum. If you keep trying a curriculum, you haven't DEschooled yourself yet,
and that's a preliminary to unschooling successfully.

-=-  I feel like I am not doing what it takes
to help them gain their education. -=-

Forget the idea of "gaining an education."
Replace it with the idea of learning.

-=- Do any of you have any suggestions for
me as far as encouraging learning without forcing it on them?-=-

Thousands of them, but first read about deschooling and move quickly in that
direction:
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

There are links to several people's deschooling summaries and suggestions.

-=-On a daily basis when the kids are doing nothing but playing pokemon cards
or pretending in some way, is there a way for me to suggest things to
them?-=-

You need to learn to see the learning involved in playing pokemon and
make-believe.
Your kids are learning fine. You're waiting for some kind of ghost of
school to appear.

-=-What do you guys do on a daily basis to "encourage" learning?-=-

Live rich and busy and happy lives.

-=- Or do you do nothing ...-=-

EEEEEEK!!!

-=-We have been unschooling for a long time. -=-

Please never say that again if you think unschoolers do nothing. Please.
Really.

-=- Or do you do
nothing and hope that eventually the kids will come around and want to learn
something?-=-

If you believe the kids will only learn when they come around and ask you
questions or announce that they want to learn or do something, unschooling is
miles away from your experience. But it can be right there, inside your house,
inside your self, between you and your kids. You don't have to leave your
home to get it. You WILL have to leave some of your ideas, though. You'll
feel better when you start to see the learning that's already happening, though,
and figure out how to facilitate more and more of it.

-=- How do I go about teaching him how to write and do math and science and
stuff?-=-

You came to an unschooling discussion list, so you're not likely to get
advice about how to teach.
If you really want to teach them to do those things, buy a curriculum and do
school at home.
It won't work very well, and you'll all be unhappy. But if you want to learn
to unschool, drop all thought of teaching and turn toward learning.

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling


Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

** What do you guys do on a daily basis to "encourage" learning?**

This is a timely question for me, as I've been considering doing more
"encouraging" but need to figure out upside and the downside (especially
if I do it poorly).

Have you read Frank Smith's book, titled _The Book of Learning and
Forgetting_. That's pretty effective and shifting the reader away from
the conventional view of how learning happens.

** We do read to the kids regularly (when they will sit for it...and
when they won't...then what?)**

Are all of them begging you to stop? Because if even one or two are
staying in the room, even if they are jumping up and down and twirling,
they could still be listening and enjoying the story. It's okay if they
don't sit still.

** My 5 year old, once and a while will pull out a math workbook and do
2 or 3
weeks worth of math at a time, when he feels like it. Other than that,
unless I tell him to sit down so we can do this or that, he won't do
anything.**

I'm not enthusiastic about workbooks. I think life presents other good
opportunities to learn. At my house, games and videos seem to get a
good reception, and that includes games and videos about math.

Betsy

Robyn Coburn

<<<<< What do you guys do on a daily basis to "encourage" learning? Or do
you do nothing and hope that eventually the kids will come around and want
to learn something?>>>>>

If you were to look at our life, you might consider it "doing nothing" since
I don't do anything that looks schoolish or like "encouraging learning". It
is basically completely unnecessary and possibly counter-productive.

Jayn needs absolutely zero encouragement to pursue her interests. She needs
no encouragement to learn about any number of fun and/or useful - to her -
topics. She needs no encouragement to practice skills like drawing, making
letters, hand stands or climbing the monkey bars, activities that are
important to her. She is an absolute whirlwind of energy except when she is
a quiet deep thinking ponderer.

What I *do* is drive her places, arrange play dates and outings, read to her
whenever she wants, buy toys and art supplies, set her up on the computer
when she wants to play, set her up to make potions or help her do baking,
set up her dvd's or record tv shows, find answers to her questions on line
if I don't know the information, help her when she is emotionally
overwhelmed, act as an intermediary with her friends if she asks me for
assistance, and play various kinds of fantasy and practical games when
invited.

The concept of "encouraging learning" can be problematic. I sense that this
is an occasion when the type of learning that you would wish to encourage
might be rather schoolish, in that it would resemble the separate subjects
and competence levels that you would expect to see in whatever grade your
children would be placed by age. It is easy to see "reading" or "writing
letters" as worthy of encouragement. Unfortunately this mind set all too
easily slides into considering other less obviously "educational" or
"vocational" interests as less worthy of encouragement and possibly even
that they should be dis-couraged.

Sometimes Jayn needs encouragement to go out to a planned event when home is
so inviting, but that doesn't sound like the type of thing you mean. It is
quite impossible to stop children from learning, however we can
inadvertently make what they are learning ideas like "Mom thinks I'm dumb"
or "Mom doesn't like what I am into so I have to keep it secret" or "Mom
loves me more when I do school for her".

I would encourage you to practice more acceptance of where they are at and
what they enjoy doing instead of worrying about what they are not doing.

<<<<<For example, he will write "hi how are you
doing? I have a lizard and a snake. I am sending you a pokemon card.
Bye." And that is the extent of his letter. I don't want to critisize his
efforts, but I certainly don't want him to write letters to someone that
make no sense.>>>>>

Well I certainly agree that this letter is the soul of brevity, which
sometimes can in itself signal that it was an assigned task rather than a
spontaneous desire to communicate something. However to say that it makes no
sense is inaccurate. It makes a lot of sense to me, and I am not even the
recipient. He politely opens with a inquiry, gives some info that is a
possible conversation opener for the reply, and includes a gift. I think it
is a rather nice letter.

Letter writing is an art that I never mastered. It is astonishing how much
more I prefer e-mail. In the past I was phone caller, rather than a letter
writer.

However I think the real reason that I never wrote many letters, and
certainly never really got beyond "How are you I am well", was because I was
writing "obligation" letters to my grandparents and later mother. I had no
real desire to communicate anything to them - certainly not to share my
dreams or hopes or wishes or private notions or even the events in my life.
I was convinced they would find my life neither interesting nor amusing, and
would probably use my tales as opportunities to critique me and my choices.
Certainly as a youngster I was infected with that "keep my life secret from
untrustworthy adults" paradigm.

Now that I believe I have something to say that some people might want to
hear, in a network with common interests, I am pretty much unstoppable.

<<<<<<"The way to achieve inner peace is to finish all the things you've
started." >>>>>>

Leaving out the joke part and just in passing, this is another concept that
is rather an anathema to Unschooling with joy. I believe that one of the
facets of inner peace is to feel free to quit any project that ceases to
fill my needs.

Robyn L. Coburn


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Angela S.

My kids are 8,7,5 and 8
> months. My concern is really with the older ones. We have been
unschooling
> for a long time. Though periodically we have tried using a curriculum,
but
> always stop after like 2 weeks.

Your kids are really young. When you place more value on certain activities
it makes those activities less desirable because they know you are grading
the outcome, if only in your mind. Just like when someone limits TV, it
becomes a commodity that is overly desired, when you place more value on
learning a certain thing, it becomes something to avoid. I'd suggest you
take a month and write down (privately- only for yourself and without them
knowing) all the things they do that they are learning something from.

> My problem is that though my 8 year old does seek out some information,
they
> really just play most of the time. I feel like I am not doing what it
takes
> to help them gain their education. Do any of you have any suggestions for
> me as far as encouraging learning without forcing it on them?

First, it's hard if you can't see the learning that takes place all the
time, but to encourage a larger world view for them, offer to take them
places they might be interested in. Do homeschool groups in your area get
together and organize trips to zoos, theaters, tours of places, museums,
etc? My children still play a lot (now almost 9 and 10.5) but it has always
been the case that as they were exposed to something (ballet comes to mind
right now) that they incorporated whatever it was into their play. After
going to the Nutcracker each year, they would play ballet for weeks. They
would keep the program to play with (and read it over and over) and write
their own programs and put on their own ballets for us to watch.

> On a daily basis when the kids are doing nothing but playing pokemon cards
> or pretending in some way, is there a way for me to suggest things to
them?
> I kind of feel lost and without a plan.

I suspect that Pokemon cards have writing on them? Can you subscribe to
some magazines that have to do with Pokemon to help further their interests
in pokemon? Are their any games with that theme that you could buy? Books?
If they are interested in Pokemon, then help them to find other pokemon
resources to delve into.

> I am not sure if you even understand where my concern is, but I really do
> need some advice.
> What do you guys do on a daily basis to "encourage" learning? Or do you
do
> nothing and hope that eventually the kids will come around and want to
learn
> something?

It's not about doing nothing. It's about respecting where they are right
now and at the same time still offering other things for them to do that
will broaden their world view.
Be prepared to take NO for an answer, esp. if they think you have some
ulterior motive.

> We do read to the kids regularly (when they will sit for it...and when
they
> won't...then what?) Other than that, I am sitting around hoping they ask
me
> questions or want to learn or do something.

If they find a book interesting, do you find other books by that author to
show them? We would always excitedly find all the books by the same author
if we liked them and read them all unless we tired of them. My kids did
reach an age when their days were so busy that they didn't want me to read
during the day, but if we got to bed at a decent hour, they would want me to
read for a long time.

> If I was to die today and my kids were put in public school, it would
really
> give homeschoolers a bad name. My 8 year old is very smart, but doesn't
> know alot. He can read and write (in chicken scratch) and he can do basic
> math like adding and subtracting and a little multiplying and he also does
> algebra (as much as he can without knowing how to divide). How do I go
> about teaching him how to write and do math and science and stuff?

Unschooling is all about letting them learn at their own pace the things
that interest them. Be there to help them further their interests even if
you don't find the same things interesting. At the same time (if it's
possible with four small children) follow your own interests. They'll see
you learning about things that interest you.

He
> writes letters to his penpal, but his letters are very messy and hard to
> read and they don't make sense. For example, he will write "hi how are
you
> doing? I have a lizard and a snake. I am sending you a pokemon card.
> Bye." And that is the extent of his letter.

Lots of kids write letters just like that. They aren't sure what to say and
they just get to the point. I always helped my kids write to their pen pals
by suggesting other things they could add to the letter about themselves or
their interests and other questions they could ask. Sometimes they'd take
my suggestions and sometimes they wouldn't. My kids still write all their
letters to their penpals on Microsoft Word and print them and mail them.

I don't want to critisize his
> efforts, but I certainly don't want him to write letters to someone that
> make no sense.

It made sense to me.

> My 7 year old, does nothing. Has ZERO desire to learn anything or ask
> questions or anything. He can read, but not really good, and has basic
math
> skills like adding and subtracting. He is a real brain child when it
comes
> to math, but won't do anything with it unless we make him sit down or he
is
> correcting his brother that made a mistake in something.

Exactly what is your goal with him learning math? Is it so he can use it in
real life? It sounds like he can already do this when he needs to. Why
would he need to do math on paper if he can notice real life mistakes and
solve real life problems?

> My 5 year old, once and a while will pull out a math workbook and do 2 or
3
> weeks worth of math at a time, when he feels like it. Other than that,
> unless I tell him to sit down so we can do this or that, he won't do
> anything.

We have always played LOTS of board games. I have always played them WITH
my kids, not just suggested to them that they go off and play them. There
is lots of math (more like real life math) involved in games. Lots of
critical thinking. They've always been able to play games geared toward
older kids because I was there to help them. I love the games by Thinkfun
like Rush Hour Traffic Jam. You play them alone and they are logic games.
They are fun and encourage critical thinking. Do you buy new games to try
on the computer too?

Breath Kim and relax. Help them make their days fun and you will see that
they are learning all the time.

Angela
Game-enthusiast@...

Pam Sorooshian

On Sep 3, 2005, at 5:11 AM, Angela S. wrote:

>> For example, he will write "hi how are you doing? I have a lizard
>> and a snake. I am sending you a pokemon card. Bye." And that is
>> the extent of his letter.

That's a GREAT letter for his age.

I'm not sure why you think it doesn't makes sense - sounds like the
perfect letter from a little boy. Beats the heck out of: Dear
Grandma, How are you? I am fine. In school I like recess best. Love,
Your Grandson

If you're comparing to things you see coming out of schooled kids,
that's not fair because they're generally following a format or
template provided by the teacher. And they're writing drafts, getting
comments and suggestions by a teacher, and rewriting. And HATING
every minute of it. And it is all mostly a big huge waste of time
because the kids are learning that WRITING IS HARD and MISERABLE and
nobody in their right mind would do it unless it was forced on them.
THAT is the big lesson learned and, as Frank Smith says, when
something is really learned, it is very very difficult to ever
unlearn it.

-pam

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>

If you're comparing to things you see coming out of schooled kids,
that's not fair because they're generally following a format or
template provided by the teacher. And they're writing drafts, getting
comments and suggestions by a teacher, and rewriting. And HATING
every minute of it. And it is all mostly a big huge waste of time
because the kids are learning that WRITING IS HARD and MISERABLE and
nobody in their right mind would do it unless it was forced on them.
THAT is the big lesson learned and, as Frank Smith says, when
something is really learned, it is very very difficult to ever
unlearn it.

-=-=-=-=-

Cameron left school at 12. He swore to me he would never read or write
again.

The first year, he spent a lot of time on the computer IMing mostly. (I
didn't remind him that *was* writing and reading! <g>)

He avoided both as best he could. And did a pretty good job of that as
I remember! <BWG>

He started reading a bit these last couple of years---mostly books on
dead rock & rollers! <g> He has a HUGE book on Phish, and we've bought
him numerous books on Jimi Hendrix, The Dead, The Beatles, The Stones,
Cream, etc. He's devoured them all. He gets magazines on drumming
(Relix & Modern Drummer)----cover to cover! He took _Wherever You Go,
There You Are_ with him to read on the plane.

For years, writing seemed to be limited to thank you notes and
occasional journaling, which he NEVER thought he'd enjoy!. He bought a
new journal for his trip to Scotland this week. And he and his
girlfriend share a journal and write back and forth to each other in
it. I don't know how many journals he's gone through lately! <g>

He just got back from Not Back to School Camp in West Virginia. He's
totally devoted to writing letters to his new friends---long,
art-filled letters with deep thoughts and life questions. It's so neat
to see him into letter writing! He eagerly awaits the postman (and is
disappointed when there's nothing for him!) and spend hours writing
letters and doing little bits of art in the margins and on the
envelopes.

School damaged him---but not beyond repair! He HAS unlearned it. But I
believe that is only because I (and his dad and he!) so totally
understand how unschooling ----and LEARNING!---works. And we trust that
he'll learn everything he needs to know when he's ready.

~Kelly


Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org

Vesna

Kim,

--- In [email protected], "Kim J. Flowers"
<kim@t...> wrote:
> I need some advice on what to do with my kiddos. My kids are 8,7,5
and 8
> months. My concern is really with the older ones. We have been
unschooling
> for a long time. Though periodically we have tried using a
curriculum, but
> always stop after like 2 weeks.
> My problem is that though my 8 year old does seek out some
information, they
> really just play most of the time. I feel like I am not doing what
it takes
> to help them gain their education.

I highly recommend that you read Alison McKee's book, Homeschooling
Our Children, Unschooling Ourselves. Here is the Amazon.com link:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0965780627/qid=1126115738/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-2270557-6623942?v=glance&s=books

It chronicles the personal inner journey of the writer, a professional
educator, through the unschooling/homeschooling childhood and teenage
years of her two children. She shares the story of how she and her
husband worked through their fears about letting go of workbooks and
curriculums and learned to trust and respect their children's natural
intelligence, curiousity, and developing selves.

She shares how events unfolded when she would try to clamp down and
bring in some formal educational experiences -- genrally these would
bring on strain to her relationships with her children and dampen
their enthusiasm about whatever the topic was. She shares
inspirational stories about their adventures in self-directed
learning. She shares how nervewracking, but ultimately rewarding, it
was every time she and her husband would TRULY let go and TRULY let
the children learn at their own paces.

For instance, her son didn't learn the math that is considered
necessary until he was fifteen or so. Then he picked up some
workbooks, sat himself down, and went through the entire 12-year
curriculum in three months. Because he decided it was time for him to
learn, and he had some reasons to be able to pass certain tests. By
the time this came about, his mind was so sharp that it was all a very
smooth process. (So what would have been gained by him being tortured
with that stuff for 12 solid years, instead of just waiting for his
personal right time?)

It also illustrates how VERY different children can be, and the
importance of trusting their rightness. For instance, although the son
(older) learned to read of his own accord at 4, the daughter learned
at 8. This was a nervewracking time for McKee, but she managed to
restrain herself from interfering, and when eventually the daughter
learned, it happened very quickly, and because the daughter wanted to
do it.

Both kids went on to be high achievers in college.

This book, I think, addresses the fears you discuss in your post. The
writer shared all of them and lived to tell the tale! BTW, this is the
book that got me hooked on Holt and unschooling. The ideas are
beautifully described and just feel so right.

Vesna

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/7/05 1:35:48 PM, duonexus@... writes:


> -=-She shares how nervewracking, but ultimately rewarding, it
> was every time she and her husband would TRULY let go and TRULY let
> the children learn at their own paces.=
>
It's much better for the parents and the kids and the family and every
relationship dyad if they truly let go once and don't go back. "Every time..."
sounds like it was more than twice. That's just too much.

-=- By the time this came about, his mind was so sharp that it was all a very
smooth process.-=-

His mind was sharp when he was born.
School and schoolish lessons can dull that sharpness.

The book is probably great for some people, but if it justifies several
instances of pressing lessons on kids, I don't think it's an ideal recommendation.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jacquie krauskopf

I REPLIED TO THIS MESSAGE LAST SATURDAY WHY HAVE I NOT SEEN IT????
JACQUIE





SandraDodd@... wrote:

In a message dated 9/7/05 1:35:48 PM, duonexus@... writes:


> -=-She shares how nervewracking, but ultimately rewarding, it
> was every time she and her husband would TRULY let go and TRULY let
> the children learn at their own paces.=
>
It's much better for the parents and the kids and the family and every
relationship dyad if they truly let go once and don't go back. "Every time..."
sounds like it was more than twice. That's just too much.

-=- By the time this came about, his mind was so sharp that it was all a very
smooth process.-=-

His mind was sharp when he was born.
School and schoolish lessons can dull that sharpness.

The book is probably great for some people, but if it justifies several
instances of pressing lessons on kids, I don't think it's an ideal recommendation.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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soggyboysmom

--- In [email protected], "Kim J. Flowers"
<kim@t...> wrote:
>He is a real brain child when it comes
> to math, but won't do anything with it unless we make him sit down
>or he is
> correcting his brother that made a mistake in something.
> My 5 year old, once and a while will pull out a math workbook and do
>2 or 3
> weeks worth of math at a time, when he feels like it. Other than
>that,
> unless I tell him to sit down so we can do this or that, he won't do
> anything.

So he can do math mentally? Why is that a problem? Did you ever think
about how young kids begin learning to manipulate numbers mentally
(and using their fingers and toes lol) then they go to school and have
to stop doing things mentally and write it all down. And THEN after
they've been thoroughly trained to write it all down, they have to
start "working on" mental math skills? Seems backward to me. Kind of
like expecting tots to learn letters and words first and then learn to
speak. The written number stuff is a symbolic way to handle the mental
stuff, just as reading is a symbolic way to handle verbal stuff.

--Deb

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/8/2005 8:51:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
debra.rossing@... writes:

So he can do math mentally? Why is that a problem? Did you ever think
about how young kids begin learning to manipulate numbers mentally
(and using their fingers and toes lol) then they go to school and have
to stop doing things mentally and write it all down. And THEN after
they've been thoroughly trained to write it all down, they have to
start "working on" mental math skills


It was a problem for me because I was a schooled kid. I could figure out
complex algebra problems in my head. I reasoned myself through them in my
mind, but couldn't for the life of me get them down on paper in the same amount
of time, so I'd just write the answers.

WRONG thing to do , you MUST show your work. It's hard to show the "work"
that went on in my head because it was nothing like the teacher set it up on
the board.

Often I would "talk" her through how I came to my answers and so quickly,
often I was accused of cheating somehow.

I learned to really hate math because of that. I could find answers inside
my head for the questions but I couldn't put those steps on paper and I was
branded a cheat and liar for it.

If I had been unschooled I might have used that math skill for some good
purpose in life, now I hate even thinking about working a math problem in my
head (the only way I can work anything other than simple math)

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vesna

Sandra,

I totally agree with you. I'm sorry, I didn't explain the point of the
book right. The book "Homeschooling Our Children, Unschooling
Ourselves" does not justify pressing lessons on kids. The whole book
is about just the opposite. It shows how disastrous it is to press
lessons on kids.

I agree, and the writer of the book would agree, more than twice IS
just too much. If she could go back in time and take back whatever
efforts she ever made to foist schoolish lessons on her kids, I'm sure
she would.

But the stories she tells are her true stories. She was an elementary
school teacher who was thoroughly brainwashed, and it took years for
her to become unschooled (hence the title).

There is one particularly sad story about how her son's enthusiasm for
a particular thing was quashed by her schoolteacherish attempts to
"help" him "do it right." She didn't even do or say much, but even
what seemed like a little bit had a big effect. Reading about the
process of his passion dying was just excruciating. He never became
interested in that area again -- maybe he never will -- maybe her
well-meaning blunder changed his whole life. Her chagrin over it is
deep and real. I found the whole episode appalling, instructive, and a
dramatic illustration of the awesome negative potential of the
schoolish approach.

If reading this book, or a similar one, can short-circuit an
education-oriented person's impulse to pull out the workbooks now and
then (whenever they lose faith in their child, in other words), then I
think it is an ideal recommendation. That is the effect it has had for
me. It shows how damaging the schoolish lessons can be, and the
importance and validity of getting out of the way.

Vesna

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/7/05 1:35:48 PM, duonexus@t... writes:
>
>
> > -=-She shares how nervewracking, but ultimately rewarding, it
> > was every time she and her husband would TRULY let go and TRULY let
> > the children learn at their own paces.=
> >
> It's much better for the parents and the kids and the family and every
> relationship dyad if they truly let go once and don't go back.
"Every time..."
> sounds like it was more than twice. That's just too much.
>
> -=- By the time this came about, his mind was so sharp that it was
all a very
> smooth process.-=-
>
> His mind was sharp when he was born.
> School and schoolish lessons can dull that sharpness.
>
> The book is probably great for some people, but if it justifies several
> instances of pressing lessons on kids, I don't think it's an ideal
recommendation.

Vesna

Glena,

I can relate! Similarly, in the seventh grade I was accused of
plagarism because my book report seemed (to her) so good that it had
to have been copied from the dust jacket. The teacher didn't bother to
look at the dust jacket before leveling her charge.

At first, I thought it was a compliment. I was trying to write the way
"real writers" wrote, so being compared to the pros who write blurbs
for the publishing companies is a good thing, right? But it was a
failing grade. I went to the teacher and found out that she meant her
note, "Sounds like dust jacket," literally!

You can imagine how much I tried to write "like a real writer" in that
teacher's class after that little episode.

Vesna


--- In [email protected], rubyprincesstsg@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/8/2005 8:51:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> debra.rossing@m... writes:
>
> Often I would "talk" her through how I came to my answers and so
quickly,
> often I was accused of cheating somehow.
>
> I learned to really hate math because of that. I could find answers
inside
> my head for the questions but I couldn't put those steps on paper
and I was
> branded a cheat and liar for it.
>
> glena
>

Mary Cimo

Glena,

That breaks my heart to hear that. You and my son are among a vast group of
people who see math that way. And these people are often quite brilliant.
It's a shame...I'm glad you see how things can be now.

Mary


> > Often I would "talk" her through how I came to my answers and so
> quickly,
> > often I was accused of cheating somehow.
> >
> > I learned to really hate math because of that. I could find answers
> inside
> > my head for the questions but I couldn't put those steps on paper
> and I was
> > branded a cheat and liar for it.
> >
> > glena
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <
> http://www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brandie

My husband recieved a bad grade on a report that he
did (middle school age, I believe) that was written up
entirely from his own head. He wrote a report about
baseball, but mainly about his favorite team, the Los
Angeles Dodgers. The teacher was disappointed that he
did not include a bibliography -- which he thought was
only a requirement if you actually had to use a
reference book, which he didn't. When he thinks back
on it, he feels like she was saying that he had copied
everything from somewhere. He loved baseball so much,
and the Dodgers even more, that he knew just about
everything about them, without the use of books for
the report.

This memory is one of the ways that my husband really
started to understand unschooling. A long while back
we had a discussion about unschooling -- where I was
trying to get him to see how wonderful it was -- and
this memory surfaced for him. It was the first time
he realized how someone can learn something without
being required to.



--- Vesna <duonexus@...> wrote:

> Glena,
>
> I can relate! Similarly, in the seventh grade I was
> accused of
> plagarism because my book report seemed (to her) so
> good that it had
> to have been copied from the dust jacket. The
> teacher didn't bother to
> look at the dust jacket before leveling her charge.
>
> At first, I thought it was a compliment. I was
> trying to write the way
> "real writers" wrote, so being compared to the pros
> who write blurbs
> for the publishing companies is a good thing, right?
> But it was a
> failing grade. I went to the teacher and found out
> that she meant her
> note, "Sounds like dust jacket," literally!
>
> You can imagine how much I tried to write "like a
> real writer" in that
> teacher's class after that little episode.
>
> Vesna
>
>
> --- In [email protected],
> rubyprincesstsg@a... wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 9/8/2005 8:51:22 A.M. Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> > debra.rossing@m... writes:
> >
> > Often I would "talk" her through how I came to my
> answers and so
> quickly,
> > often I was accused of cheating somehow.
> >
> > I learned to really hate math because of that. I
> could find answers
> inside
> > my head for the questions but I couldn't put those
> steps on paper
> and I was
> > branded a cheat and liar for it.
> >
> > glena
> >
>
>
>
>
>


Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
http://homemadeliving.blogspot.com


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[email protected]

Hey, it's not just in school that it happens.

Long ago Keith didn't live with me but had borrowed my car, a Honda Civic.
Someone in a silver Honda Civic robbed a convenience store in Albuquerque.
Cops stopped Keith, called him out with guns drawn, it wasn't the guy.
BUT... Keith was a cocky kid and irritating, so they wanted to ticket him for
something.
Said his tires were too bald.

My dad lived one block from a tire store in Santa Fe and was listening to the
radio when they said the first person there with a roll of quarters could buy
a set of 13" tires (or 12s or whatever that car took). He trotted around
the corner and bought me a set of tires.

We got the tires on and Keith took the receipt to court to get out of the
ticket.

The judge said "You can't buy a set of tires for $10" and fined him.

If it hadn't been night court, maybe they could've called the tire place to
verify.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]