The Black Spot (was Re: book worship and some of its history)
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In a message dated 8/29/05 6:14:09 AM, elainegh8@... writes:
even, who would know about it are those who read/care/know about folklore and
religion and such. Someone who's superstitious or afraid of the voodoo-related
religions in the south will be more likely to have come across that word, I
guess, or people who have that anthropological curiosity about what's what.
In Treasure Island by Stevenson, there's the passage about the black spot
(some kind of death threat consisting of a darkened black circle on a piece of
paper). I lifted the quotes from here
http://www.talewins.com/Treasures/Kids/Island/29.htm
so Chapter 29
They're trying to intimidate Long John Silver by delivering them a black
spot, some kind of death threat, but he spooks them way worse in return by telling
them what bad luck it is that one of them has cut a Bible. Dick, whose
Bible it is, says that it will still be good ("It'll do to kiss the book on
still"--for swearing oaths or for getting a blessing, I think--what Bibles would be
kissed about). Silver assures him no, that being cut it will have lost its
power and be no more good than a ballad-book. Dick would kinda like to have a
ballad book and perks up, but that doesn't keep him from feeling he's cursed
himself and their group plan.
-=-
"The black spot! I thought so," he observed. "Where might you have got the
paper? Why, hillo! Look here, now; this ain't lucky! You've gone and cut this
out of a Bible. What fool's cut a Bible?"
"Ah, there!" said Morgan. "There! Wot did I say? No good'll come o' that, I
said."
"Well, you've about fixed it now, among you," continued Silver. "You'll all
swing now, I reckon. What soft- headed lubber had a Bible?"
"It was Dick," said one.
. . . .
"So that's the toon, is it?" cried the cook. "George, I reckon you'll have
to wait another turn, friend; and lucky for you as I'm not a revengeful man.
But that was never my way. And now, shipmates, this black spot? 'Tain't much
good now, is it? Dick's crossed his luck and spoiled his Bible, and that's about
all."
"It'll do to kiss the book on still, won't it?" growled Dick, who was
evidently uneasy at the curse he had brought upon himself.
"A Bible with a bit cut out!" returned Silver derisively. "Not it. It don't
bind no more'n a ballad-book."
"Don't it, though?" cried Dick with a sort of joy. "Well, I reckon that's
worth having too."
"Here, Jim--here's a cur'osity for you," said Silver, and he tossed me the
paper.
It was around about the size of a crown piece. One side was blank, for it had
been the last leaf; the other contained a verse or two of Revelation--these
words among the rest, which struck sharply home upon my mind: "Without are dogs
and murderers." The printed side had been blackened with wood ash, which
already began to come off and soil my fingers; on the blank side had been written
with the same material the one word "Depposed." I have that curiosity beside
me at this moment, but not a trace of writing now remains beyond a single
scratch, such as a man might make with his thumb-nail."
(more in another post)
> HiIt's a New Orleans-origin word, I think, and probably the only Americans,
>
> > Someone asked what ju-ju was.
>
> It was me. Thanks for the explanation,much appreciated.
>
even, who would know about it are those who read/care/know about folklore and
religion and such. Someone who's superstitious or afraid of the voodoo-related
religions in the south will be more likely to have come across that word, I
guess, or people who have that anthropological curiosity about what's what.
In Treasure Island by Stevenson, there's the passage about the black spot
(some kind of death threat consisting of a darkened black circle on a piece of
paper). I lifted the quotes from here
http://www.talewins.com/Treasures/Kids/Island/29.htm
so Chapter 29
They're trying to intimidate Long John Silver by delivering them a black
spot, some kind of death threat, but he spooks them way worse in return by telling
them what bad luck it is that one of them has cut a Bible. Dick, whose
Bible it is, says that it will still be good ("It'll do to kiss the book on
still"--for swearing oaths or for getting a blessing, I think--what Bibles would be
kissed about). Silver assures him no, that being cut it will have lost its
power and be no more good than a ballad-book. Dick would kinda like to have a
ballad book and perks up, but that doesn't keep him from feeling he's cursed
himself and their group plan.
-=-
"The black spot! I thought so," he observed. "Where might you have got the
paper? Why, hillo! Look here, now; this ain't lucky! You've gone and cut this
out of a Bible. What fool's cut a Bible?"
"Ah, there!" said Morgan. "There! Wot did I say? No good'll come o' that, I
said."
"Well, you've about fixed it now, among you," continued Silver. "You'll all
swing now, I reckon. What soft- headed lubber had a Bible?"
"It was Dick," said one.
. . . .
"So that's the toon, is it?" cried the cook. "George, I reckon you'll have
to wait another turn, friend; and lucky for you as I'm not a revengeful man.
But that was never my way. And now, shipmates, this black spot? 'Tain't much
good now, is it? Dick's crossed his luck and spoiled his Bible, and that's about
all."
"It'll do to kiss the book on still, won't it?" growled Dick, who was
evidently uneasy at the curse he had brought upon himself.
"A Bible with a bit cut out!" returned Silver derisively. "Not it. It don't
bind no more'n a ballad-book."
"Don't it, though?" cried Dick with a sort of joy. "Well, I reckon that's
worth having too."
"Here, Jim--here's a cur'osity for you," said Silver, and he tossed me the
paper.
It was around about the size of a crown piece. One side was blank, for it had
been the last leaf; the other contained a verse or two of Revelation--these
words among the rest, which struck sharply home upon my mind: "Without are dogs
and murderers." The printed side had been blackened with wood ash, which
already began to come off and soil my fingers; on the blank side had been written
with the same material the one word "Depposed." I have that curiosity beside
me at this moment, but not a trace of writing now remains beyond a single
scratch, such as a man might make with his thumb-nail."
(more in another post)
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
That idea that the Bible was holy until it was damaged and now it's just a
regular book (even though the idea was put forth by a manipulative kind of
psychopathic fictional character <g>) has to do with juju. Does one copy of a
bible have power?
In the good old days of the monolithic Catholic church in Europe (good old
days for the Catholic church, anyway), there were Bibles with covers made of
gold and jewels, containing holy relics. The Bible itself was a reliquary, so
in addition to it being hand written by monks and hand-illustrated on
hand-made paper and hand-bound, it had a monetary value and it contained some
sanctified item (a piece of the true cross, maybe, or a bone or some hair from a
saint, or who knows what). THAT book certainly ought not to have a piece of
paper cut out of the back of it.
A commercially-produced Bible, even in the early 19th century though, has got
to be much less sanctified, if it is at all. And a Bible produced in 2005,
on a high-speed press, manufactured in runs of hundreds of thousands, what
degree of original juju does that have?
Yet there was recently an international incident of huge proportions because
someone claimed that someone did something disrespectful to a copy of the
Koran. And I'm sure children have been severely shamed and punished for casual
mistreatment of Bibles, even without purposeful destruction.
And that's just worship of the physical form of the book.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
regular book (even though the idea was put forth by a manipulative kind of
psychopathic fictional character <g>) has to do with juju. Does one copy of a
bible have power?
In the good old days of the monolithic Catholic church in Europe (good old
days for the Catholic church, anyway), there were Bibles with covers made of
gold and jewels, containing holy relics. The Bible itself was a reliquary, so
in addition to it being hand written by monks and hand-illustrated on
hand-made paper and hand-bound, it had a monetary value and it contained some
sanctified item (a piece of the true cross, maybe, or a bone or some hair from a
saint, or who knows what). THAT book certainly ought not to have a piece of
paper cut out of the back of it.
A commercially-produced Bible, even in the early 19th century though, has got
to be much less sanctified, if it is at all. And a Bible produced in 2005,
on a high-speed press, manufactured in runs of hundreds of thousands, what
degree of original juju does that have?
Yet there was recently an international incident of huge proportions because
someone claimed that someone did something disrespectful to a copy of the
Koran. And I'm sure children have been severely shamed and punished for casual
mistreatment of Bibles, even without purposeful destruction.
And that's just worship of the physical form of the book.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
elainegh8
Yunno I'm so glad I'm am atheist ;)
BWs Elaine (UK)
BWs Elaine (UK)
> That idea that the Bible was holy until it was damaged and nowit's just a
> regular book (even though the idea was put forth by a manipulativekind of
> psychopathic fictional character <g>) has to do with juju. Doesone copy of a
> bible have power?(good old
>
> In the good old days of the monolithic Catholic church in Europe
> days for the Catholic church, anyway), there were Bibles withcovers made of
> gold and jewels, containing holy relics. The Bible itself was areliquary, so
> in addition to it being hand written by monks and hand-illustratedon
> hand-made paper and hand-bound, it had a monetary value and itcontained some
> sanctified item (a piece of the true cross, maybe, or a bone orsome hair from a
> saint, or who knows what). THAT book certainly ought not tohave a piece of
> paper cut out of the back of it.though, has got
>
> A commercially-produced Bible, even in the early 19th century
> to be much less sanctified, if it is at all. And a Bibleproduced in 2005,
> on a high-speed press, manufactured in runs of hundreds ofthousands, what
> degree of original juju does that have?proportions because
>
> Yet there was recently an international incident of huge
> someone claimed that someone did something disrespectful to a copyof the
> Koran. And I'm sure children have been severely shamed andpunished for casual
> mistreatment of Bibles, even without purposeful destruction.
>
> And that's just worship of the physical form of the book.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler Waynforth
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
Or people who play Tak and the Power of JuJu for the gamecube. I
think there is one for the gameboy as well...
Schuyler
>Americans,
> In a message dated 8/29/05 6:14:09 AM, elainegh8@h... writes:
>
>
> > Hi
> >
> > > Someone asked what ju-ju was.
> >
> It's a New Orleans-origin word, I think, and probably the only
> even, who would know about it are those who read/care/know aboutfolklore and
> religion and such. Someone who's superstitious or afraid of thevoodoo-related
> religions in the south will be more likely to have come across thatword, I
> guess, or people who have that anthropological curiosity aboutwhat's what.
Or people who play Tak and the Power of JuJu for the gamecube. I
think there is one for the gameboy as well...
Schuyler
Schuyler Waynforth
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
http://www.takeourword.com/Issue078.html:
--------------
In New Orleans, vodou is often called hoodoo (a further corruption of
vodou), and in that city a fetish (i.e. any kind of charm, amulet, or
magical means of protection) is commonly called a juju. Louisiana has
a pronounced French influence and juju comes from the French word
joujou, "toy, plaything". Sometimes (especially if one is a fan of
New Orleans singer and composer Dr. John), one will come across the
word gris-gris which is a leather bag containing a juju. The word
gris-gris has been known since the 17th century when a traveler in
West Africa noted that "They wear about their Neck, Arms, and Legs,
and even bind about their Horses, little leathern Bags, which they
call Grisgris, in which are enclosed certain Passages of the Alcoran
[i.e. the Koran] to secure them from venemous Beasts, etc."
Unfortunately, although its African origin is indisputable, the
precise etymology of this word is unknown.
-----------
It seems such a nice parallel to find the Koran used as the juju in
the gris-gris from the 17th century, given the discussion of books
(and even the Bible) as juju.
Schuyler
>I went looking and found this at
> In a message dated 8/29/05 6:14:09 AM, elainegh8@h... writes:
>
>
> > Hi
> >
> > > Someone asked what ju-ju was.
> >
> > It was me. Thanks for the explanation,much appreciated.
> >
> It's a New Orleans-origin word, I think,
http://www.takeourword.com/Issue078.html:
--------------
In New Orleans, vodou is often called hoodoo (a further corruption of
vodou), and in that city a fetish (i.e. any kind of charm, amulet, or
magical means of protection) is commonly called a juju. Louisiana has
a pronounced French influence and juju comes from the French word
joujou, "toy, plaything". Sometimes (especially if one is a fan of
New Orleans singer and composer Dr. John), one will come across the
word gris-gris which is a leather bag containing a juju. The word
gris-gris has been known since the 17th century when a traveler in
West Africa noted that "They wear about their Neck, Arms, and Legs,
and even bind about their Horses, little leathern Bags, which they
call Grisgris, in which are enclosed certain Passages of the Alcoran
[i.e. the Koran] to secure them from venemous Beasts, etc."
Unfortunately, although its African origin is indisputable, the
precise etymology of this word is unknown.
-----------
It seems such a nice parallel to find the Koran used as the juju in
the gris-gris from the 17th century, given the discussion of books
(and even the Bible) as juju.
Schuyler
elainegh8
Hi that's really interesting. An old neighbour of mine was from
Pakistan. We live in a very mixed area with lots of people from
everywhere with a very large ex Pakistani population. Most UK families
originaly from Pakistan visit there quite frequently.
The last time I saw my neighbour they were not long back from visiting
Pakistan and the youngest son had a necklace round his neck with a
small leather pouch on. I asked my neighbour what it was and she said
she'd got it in Pakistan and it was to protect him and contained some
herbs and other things.
I think I have a Dr John tape somewhere with all the stuff about gris
gris on it.
Yunno, it goes to show, you learn something every day :D
BWs Elaine (UK)
Pakistan. We live in a very mixed area with lots of people from
everywhere with a very large ex Pakistani population. Most UK families
originaly from Pakistan visit there quite frequently.
The last time I saw my neighbour they were not long back from visiting
Pakistan and the youngest son had a necklace round his neck with a
small leather pouch on. I asked my neighbour what it was and she said
she'd got it in Pakistan and it was to protect him and contained some
herbs and other things.
I think I have a Dr John tape somewhere with all the stuff about gris
gris on it.
Yunno, it goes to show, you learn something every day :D
BWs Elaine (UK)
>snipped<Sometimes (especially if one is a fan of
> New Orleans singer and composer Dr. John), one will come across the
> word gris-gris which is a leather bag containing a juju. The word
> gris-gris has been known since the 17th century when a traveler in
> West Africa noted that "They wear about their Neck, Arms, and Legs,
> and even bind about their Horses, little leathern Bags, which they
> call Grisgris, in which are enclosed certain Passages of the Alcoran
> [i.e. the Koran] to secure them from venemous Beasts, etc."
> Unfortunately, although its African origin is indisputable, the
> precise etymology of this word is unknown.
> It seems such a nice parallel to find the Koran used as the juju in
> the gris-gris from the 17th century, given the discussion of books
> (and even the Bible) as juju.
>
> Schuyler
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/30/05 6:55:34 AM, s.waynforth@... writes:
Didn't know about them. Cool. <g>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Tak and the Power of JuJuOoooH!
>
Didn't know about them. Cool. <g>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/30/05 8:48:41 AM, elainegh8@... writes:
prayer bag) a teeny leather bag with something in it. Herbs or sage or a
crystal.
That's not about books, though.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The last time I saw my neighbour they were not long back from visitingThere's a hippie/new-age/pseudo-native-American concept of "medicine bag" (or
> Pakistan and the youngest son had a necklace round his neck with a
> small leather pouch on. I asked my neighbour what it was and she said
> she'd got it in Pakistan and it was to protect him and contained some
> herbs and other things.
>
prayer bag) a teeny leather bag with something in it. Herbs or sage or a
crystal.
That's not about books, though.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
You remind me of a man.
What man?
The man with the power.
What power?
The power of hoodoo.
Hoodoo?
You do.
Do what?
Remind me of the man.
What man?.........
Cary Grant and Myrna Loy, "The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer" (1947)
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< In New Orleans, vodou is often called hoodoo (a further corruption of
vodou),>>>>>>
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What man?
The man with the power.
What power?
The power of hoodoo.
Hoodoo?
You do.
Do what?
Remind me of the man.
What man?.........
Cary Grant and Myrna Loy, "The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer" (1947)
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< In New Orleans, vodou is often called hoodoo (a further corruption of
vodou),>>>>>>
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Debi
That quote is also from Labyrinth with David Bowie .... cool movie!
Robyn Coburn wrote:
Robyn Coburn wrote:
>You remind me of a man.
>What man?
>The man with the power.
>What power?
>The power of hoodoo.
>Hoodoo?
>You do.
>Do what?
>Remind me of the man.
>What man?.........
>
>Cary Grant and Myrna Loy, "The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer" (1947)
>
>
elizabeth roberts
LOL Labyrinth...great movie!
Elizabeth, NYC
Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
You remind me of a man.
What man?
The man with the power.
What power?
The power of hoodoo.
Hoodoo?
You do.
Do what?
Remind me of the man.
What man?.........
Cary Grant and Myrna Loy, "The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer" (1947)
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< In New Orleans, vodou is often called hoodoo (a further corruption of
vodou),>>>>>>
--
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Elizabeth, NYC
Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
You remind me of a man.
What man?
The man with the power.
What power?
The power of hoodoo.
Hoodoo?
You do.
Do what?
Remind me of the man.
What man?.........
Cary Grant and Myrna Loy, "The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer" (1947)
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< In New Orleans, vodou is often called hoodoo (a further corruption of
vodou),>>>>>>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/84 - Release Date: 8/29/2005
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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