mamaaj2000

This is one of those areas where all I'm sure of is that I want it
to be different than how it was when I was a child...

My mom always has had lots of negative things to say about
everybody. When I was growing up, she shared lots of info about
people that I wasn't ready for and didn't ask for. I remember one
time when I was probably 7 or 8. We were headed to a party and she
told me, in regards to some people I probably wasn't going to even
talk to, that if anything came up about the woman's maiden name
being the same as her married name, don't ask why, because she had
married her first cousin. Too much info!

I remember feeling so conflicted about my dad's family because I
loved them so and yet heard all these terrible things about them.
They also gossiped a lot about each other and my mom had always
sworn me to secret about everything she told me, so I felt weighted
down by all of it.

I Wanted To Do Things Differently long before I had kids, thought
about homeschooling, and learned about unschooling. Then my oldest
son came along. He has never been shy about telling people what he
thinks of them and their actions. From a 2 year old who would say "I
don't want you to pick me up" to a 4.5 yr old who started telling
his friends' parents not to yell at their kids. (That's a whole
other story...)

Anyway, to start actually approaching my point, I've just been
avoiding saying anything negative about people for a long time now!
I'm afraid he'll repeat it to their face. And I don't want to burden
him with things he's not supposed to talk about to people's faces.

But I feel like I'm being less than honest with him. One of his
friends has been very angry lately. I didn't like how much this boy
has been yelling at other kids and had one of those "is it just me
or is C really angry a lot" talks with another mom. Then C was over
and yelled at my 2 yr old and tried to close the door on her. I
didn't say anything about it to Mikey, but just didn't bring up the
idea of playing with C much. Of course Mikey was well aware of how C
was acting and mentioned the other day about this noise C makes when
he's really angry.

I'm missing opportunities to talk about things because I'm not sure
how to approach it and would love to hear how people without hang
ups actually talk. (Well, without hang-ups re this topic--don't want
to limit the conversation too much!) Or how you've dealt despite
your hang-ups...It's past time for me to get over this.

Thanks,
aj

Angela S.

I have the opposite issue. :) I'll be interested to hear what people have
to say on this issue. My parents never said anything negative about
anyone. (for the most part) And we weren't expected to say negative things
about people either. Gossip was seen as very bad and I think that was a
good thing in many ways. But it also crossed over that you really didn't
feel comfortable venting about anyone either or just talking about what
happened between you and a friend. If you didn't feel comfortable talking
about things that happened between you and your friends, you also couldn't
bring issues to the table to talk about how to work through them.

I have always wanted my kids to feel comfortable talking with me about
anything. But I do get tired of hearing them complain about people
sometimes. I know I am overly critical of it, in my mind, but I try to keep
those thoughts to myself. The fear is that my children will grow up to be
intolerant of people's differences, but that is not justified. My kids are
kind to other people and just vent their frustrations at home where they
feel safe.

One thing I did when the girls were littler that helped them talk about
issues they have with other kids without my interpreting it for them, was to
say something that validated their feelings to them after their complaint.
That opened the door to them talking about it more without my judgment.
Usually these topics came up in bed at night. They might say something
about what a kid had done that was mean and I might say boy, that sounds
frustrating to deal with. We might talk about how they responded that time
and how they might respond differently next time if it didn't work well.
Actually, we still do this, but now they really vent how they felt and it's
hard to hear sometimes. I do try to focus on helping them solve the problem
though. I want them to feel empowered and not victims of other people's
behavior.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...

[email protected]

> -=-They also gossiped a lot about each other and my mom had always
> sworn me to secret about everything she told me, so I felt weighted
> down by all of it.-=-
>
That seems the worst part, her telling you what to do with information you
didn't even ask for.

-=-...a 4.5 yr old who started telling
his friends' parents not to yell at their kids.-=-

Holly. <g>

-=- Then C was over
and yelled at my 2 yr old and tried to close the door on her. I
didn't say anything about it to Mikey, but just didn't bring up the
idea of playing with C much.-=-

I would have talked to C directly, reminded him of how he needs to act in
your home, and maybe ask him if he wanted to talk. If you grew up being told
not to talk to people, you might just not have considered that it's your life,
your house, and you can talk if you want to.

-=-I'm missing opportunities to talk about things because I'm not sure
how to approach it and would love to hear how people without hang
ups actually talk.-=-

I'll speculate with the child about what might be going on in the other kid's
life, about what factors he's dealing with and about how some people react
when they're afraid or angry. We'll talk about what my child might do to make
things easier, or whether avoidance is the best option.

Instead of telling him "Well, their parents are divorced and his dad's
fooling around," you could say "Maybe he misses his dad and doesn't know how to act.
Maybe his mom is angry and that keeps him from feeling like he has a safe,
quiet place to be."

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/28/05 6:01:10 AM, game-enthusiast@... writes:


> Gossip was seen as very bad and I think that was a
> good thing in many ways. 
>

-----------------------------

The idea that "gossip is bad" has a many-generations history of prejudice
against women and the way they learn and share. When you think about gossip,
try to be as open-minded and as analytical as you can be. Consider the kinds
of information you're thinking about, the purposes for sharing, the
advantages and disadvantages of others knowing or not knowing... there is no
monolithic "gossip." It's a word with a VERY negative connotation involving waste
of time and sin, and doesn't begin to describe the range or process of people
sharing social knowledge and experience.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle Conger

SandraDodd@... wrote:

> The idea that "gossip is bad" has a many-generations history of prejudice
> against women and the way they learn and share. When you think
> about gossip,
> try to be as open-minded and as analytical as you can be. Consider
> the kinds
> of information you're thinking about, the purposes for sharing, the
> advantages and disadvantages of others knowing or not knowing...
> there is no
> monolithic "gossip." It's a word with a VERY negative connotation
> involving waste
> of time and sin, and doesn't begin to describe the range or process of
> people
> sharing social knowledge and experience.

Yes, and much of it was wrapped up in the whole medical profession
taking over from midwifery period of history. A "gossip" was one of the
women present during another woman's lying-in, or child-bearing, and the
month-long period after which the new mother stayed in her room/
home.The gossip was likely the one to fetch the midwife when the time
came. Once that month long period was over, the new mother went for her
"churching" a kind of purification and re-entrance to the community and
her gossip was often the one to reintroduce her to the community. The
"gossip" or "God-sib," literally God-sibling, was an intermediary
between the new mother and the larger community during this time. She
held a very important role in the female circle surrounding child birth.

Over the course of a couple of centuries "gossips" and midwives and
medicinal women were slowly demonized and denigrated by other forms of
power--the church, the rising medical profession, etc.

--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/28/05 12:04:22 PM, danielle.conger@... writes:


> Over the course of a couple of centuries "gossips" and midwives and
> medicinal women were slowly demonized and denigrated by other forms of
> power--the church, the rising medical profession, etc.
>

That's really interesting because one example I started to give and decided
to write less <g> was the way in which women learn about childbirth, from other
women sharing their stories with pregnant women. Pregnant women hear the
kinds of stories that just aren't told otherwise, and they're hugely valuable.

I have some male friends with some interpersonal skills, and they have
discussed with me the differences between the ways women typically share information
and the way men do. It's not a women vs. men division so much (I think, at
this point, having not thought about it enough to have a conviction) but is
between people with high inter- and intra-personal intelligence and the
relatively clueless.

The prevailing traditions of school were likely developed by very verbal and
bookish people who thought others were just not very bright (if their talents
were physical or musical or artistic, I mean), and dismissed any evidence that
didn't support their books-and-words-are-everything theories. Similarly,
the prejudices against "gossip" were probably solidified by people who just saw
no value in knowing about the neighbors.

Yes, if they don't need or use information about people, and wouldn't know
what to do with it if they had it, there's no reason for them to know.

When I get involved in long discussions about who and what and why, I try to
be aware of who might be there who is NOT really prepared to hear those
things. I know one woman who only uses such information to needle people or to
prove she knows something others don't know. She's socially worthless. She
gives gossip a bad name. Years ago I quit telling her anything useful or
real.

I was involved in the SCA at corporate level for years, and there were people
who LOVED to know me because they liked telling their friends what they had
learned from me. I figured out a trick I'm sure politicians must all know.
I would answer some of their questions and tell them a few stories (of what
current problems or issues were, or what had happened at the last board
meeting). I would tailor my little info-feeds to their interests, and sometimes I
could give them something their audience needed to know, that would benefit
their region or corner of the SCA. I wouldn't say "That's just part of what I
know," or "I can't tell you anything REALLY juicy." that would've been cruel.
I would tell them something that would be fun for them to know, and
socially valuable, but something that wouldn't hurt anyone else.

Some people don't have that discernment. They think they have to tell
everything they know or nothing. Balance and judgment.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cally Brown

Wow! Thank you Danielle, that's amazing.

Cally

Danielle Conger wrote:

> Yes, and much of it was wrapped up in the whole medical profession
> taking over from midwifery period of history. A "gossip" was one of the
> women present during another woman's lying-in, or child-bearing, and the
> month-long period after which the new mother stayed in her room/
> home.The gossip was likely the one to fetch the midwife when the time
> came. Once that month long period was over, the new mother went for her
> "churching" a kind of purification and re-entrance to the community and
> her gossip was often the one to reintroduce her to the community. The
> "gossip" or "God-sib," literally God-sibling, was an intermediary
> between the new mother and the larger community during this time. She
> held a very important role in the female circle surrounding child birth.
>
> Over the course of a couple of centuries "gossips" and midwives and
> medicinal women were slowly demonized and denigrated by other forms of
> power--the church, the rising medical profession, etc.

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>
> > -=-They also gossiped a lot about each other and my mom had
always
> > sworn me to secret about everything she told me, so I felt
weighted
> > down by all of it.-=-
> >
> That seems the worst part, her telling you what to do with
information you
> didn't even ask for.

Exactly. I was pretty quiet as a kid so it wasn't too hard for me to
not talk about it. Mikey, OTOH...dh was muttering about someone
walking in his way in a parking lot--in the place dh was trying to
drive in--and Mikey rolled down his window and started to yell at
the guy!

>
> -=-...a 4.5 yr old who started telling
> his friends' parents not to yell at their kids.-=-
>
> Holly. <g>

So did you have conversations about what, when and where to tell
people about what she thought of them? Mikey was definitely less
welcome at a couple houses after a couple outbursts, so we've had a
couple talks about it.

>
> -=- Then C was over
> and yelled at my 2 yr old and tried to close the door on her. I
> didn't say anything about it to Mikey, but just didn't bring up the
> idea of playing with C much.-=-
>
> I would have talked to C directly, reminded him of how he needs to
act in
> your home, and maybe ask him if he wanted to talk. If you grew
up being told
> not to talk to people, you might just not have considered that
it's your life,
> your house, and you can talk if you want to.

Oh, I definitely said something to him at the time! It was
completely hectic in the moment so I didn't have a chance to follow
up with C and I'm not sure Mikey saw any of it.


> I'll speculate with the child about what might be going on in the
other kid's
> life, about what factors he's dealing with and about how some
people react
> when they're afraid or angry. We'll talk about what my child
might do to make
> things easier, or whether avoidance is the best option.
>
> Instead of telling him "Well, their parents are divorced and his
dad's
> fooling around," you could say "Maybe he misses his dad and
doesn't know how to act.
> Maybe his mom is angry and that keeps him from feeling like he
has a safe,
> quiet place to be."

Okay, that makes sense and, knowing Mikey, would be more likely to
lead him to be sympathetic to C rather than telling him how he's
wrong.

thanks,
aj

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/29/05 10:41:13 AM, mamaaj2000@... writes:


> So did you have conversations about what, when and where to tell
> people about what she thought of them?
>

No, the times she told stranger-parents to be nicer to their kids were GREAT,
and I was proud of her courage and compassion. They weren't in homes, but
had she been booted from a house for objecting, she wouldn't have minded. I
think she has wished a couple of times she had said something at one particular
house, but she just wandered off and quit hanging around there instead.

She's talked about one incident of a neighbor she played with just a few
times. Once they were at a third neighbor's pool (housesitting, the other
family) and it was two girls and the other girl's uncle. They were in the pool and
the other girl wanted to get her towel, or to just get out for a while and
the young uncle simply said "NO, stay in the pool." No good reason, just to be
in control. Holly just climbed out and got the towel and walked it around
to the girl without even looking at the uncle. He was (she knew clearly) not
authorized to tell Holly to stay in a pool. She quit hanging around there;
the uncle died (natural causes or drugs, we don't know which) and that's just
that.

Holly's not passive, though. If she does decide not to express herself in
the moment, she will express herself at length and in depth later. <g>

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cally Brown

Reminds me....

SandraDodd@... wrote:

> No, the times she told stranger-parents to be nicer to their kids were
> GREAT,
> and I was proud of her courage and compassion.

We went to visit old friends who had a crawling, pulling up to a
supported stand, baby. Their house had not changed since pre baby times.
It was immaculate, still with plants and ornaments on the floor and low
tables. I commented and was told that the toddler didn't touch anything.
I must have looked surprised (I had 3 kids, one the same age as theirs,
plus a 3yo and a 5yo) and was told that if the baby touched anything his
hand was smacked and he soon learned. Dh & I sat feeling stunned, not
knowing what to say, but our 5yo ds didn't hesitate: "Babies are NOT for
hitting. If you don't want him to touch things you should put them where
he can't reach them." Their turn to be stunned! We didn't go back and
visit for a very long time.

You gotta love him. Mind you I think it was easier for him to say that
back then, than it is for him to do it now he has 2 beautiful, amazingly
energetic, adventurous, curious, active, exhausting children of his own!

Cally