Daughter's friend needs place to live
Julie Bogart
I know you can't decide this for me, but I would like some advice, if
you can offer it.
I mentioned over a year ago about a friend of my daughter's who was
going through a very rough time with her parents (she was being hit
and roughed up by her dad). We called CPS and they were originally
going to remove her fromm the home, then changed their minds and then
did nothing. NOTHING! I called a couple of times and no change.
This now almost 18 year old girl is still living at home a year later
and her parents are becoming mean again (they backed off some
initially after the call - no hitting, but total isolation - wouldn't
let her eat with the family, no phone or computer access, etc.).
She has told her parents she wants to move out and they have told her
to go. They are done with her.
She's been homeschooled and is finished with high school. She has no
money and is wanting to leave while she figures out her future.
She is best friends with our daughter who has asked us if this girl
could stay here for six months. My daughter asked us to consider this
but she added that she herself is not excited about the possibility.
The friend is a real drain emotionally and our daughter has really
come to life once she was not as able to spend time with this friend.
We have five kids and a not very big house. Already double up on
bedrooms. On the other hand, this girl is someone we love and have
known for years. She is draining (very self-absorbed, obviously). She
has had drug use issues in the past though currently we are to assume
that she's not using any more.
I guess my compassion is moved. I can only imagine how damaged she
is/feels. I know we can't be the ones to heal her, but we might be a
weigh station while she gets herself together. But is that a wise
thing to do? And what would need to happen legally?
I feel torn and want to be sure I make a decision that is both
compassionate and yet wise (not just motivated by the urgency she
communicates).
Okay - fire away with advice. If we don't take her, anyone have ideas
for how she can leave home and start on her own without much money?
How can we help her?
Julie
you can offer it.
I mentioned over a year ago about a friend of my daughter's who was
going through a very rough time with her parents (she was being hit
and roughed up by her dad). We called CPS and they were originally
going to remove her fromm the home, then changed their minds and then
did nothing. NOTHING! I called a couple of times and no change.
This now almost 18 year old girl is still living at home a year later
and her parents are becoming mean again (they backed off some
initially after the call - no hitting, but total isolation - wouldn't
let her eat with the family, no phone or computer access, etc.).
She has told her parents she wants to move out and they have told her
to go. They are done with her.
She's been homeschooled and is finished with high school. She has no
money and is wanting to leave while she figures out her future.
She is best friends with our daughter who has asked us if this girl
could stay here for six months. My daughter asked us to consider this
but she added that she herself is not excited about the possibility.
The friend is a real drain emotionally and our daughter has really
come to life once she was not as able to spend time with this friend.
We have five kids and a not very big house. Already double up on
bedrooms. On the other hand, this girl is someone we love and have
known for years. She is draining (very self-absorbed, obviously). She
has had drug use issues in the past though currently we are to assume
that she's not using any more.
I guess my compassion is moved. I can only imagine how damaged she
is/feels. I know we can't be the ones to heal her, but we might be a
weigh station while she gets herself together. But is that a wise
thing to do? And what would need to happen legally?
I feel torn and want to be sure I make a decision that is both
compassionate and yet wise (not just motivated by the urgency she
communicates).
Okay - fire away with advice. If we don't take her, anyone have ideas
for how she can leave home and start on her own without much money?
How can we help her?
Julie
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/26/2005 9:24:22 PM Central Standard Time,
julie@... writes:
Okay - fire away with advice. If we don't take her, anyone have ideas
for how she can leave home and start on her own without much money?
How can we help her?
~~~
Does she have a way to get to work?
Help her find a job, first. Will her parents leave her alone if she's
working a lot? I suggest she stay there until she has some money and a job. I
wouldn't take her in, because it she is not going to suddenly mature and become
motivated just because she's away from her parents. She needs to show
initiative. Just asking to move in with someone else is not enough. She's old
enough to be working. If she really wants to get out, she should have a plan
to get a job and get some money and ways to cope with her family until she can
get that far.
Help her formulate the plan. Offer what you're willing to do to help her
execute it, without sacrificing your family's peace and happiness. Expect her
to do what she says she's going to do in return for what you will do, and
follow up on it. Don't let your daughter be the middleman between you and the
girl. If she wants adult help, she needs to be adult.
This is not advice I would expect to be giving about a totally unschooled
child, but it's advice I've learned through experience. I have a 20 yo who has
had trouble being responsible with his money (he left school at 11). We had
quite a few years of conflict over his desires to be an adult and his
inablity to function as one. He's past that, now. But I remember when he lived at
home, he would fail to do the things he agreed to do (pay his car insurance,
etc.) even though he had the resources to do so. All we wanted was for him
to have a plan based on his wishes, and to execute the plan. If his plan was
to chill out and not work for another year or so, then he'd have to expect
to have the lifestyle he had before he started working. We couldn't afford
the lifestyle of another fully-fledged adult--we were both working and since he
was too, we didn't expect to have to pay for a lot of his stuff. But he
expected us to.
This girl needs help, but you shouldn't bend over backwards for her unless
she is, too. If she really wants to get out *now* she's going to have to find
a live-in job somewhere or something like that. Amusement Parks,
housekeeper, nanny, elder care, cruise ship jobs are all things she could do and have a
place to live, too. Some of those things require an adventerous spirit, and
a willingness to leave it all behind. I could get really excited about some
of those jobs if I were 18 again!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
Okay - fire away with advice. If we don't take her, anyone have ideas
for how she can leave home and start on her own without much money?
How can we help her?
~~~
Does she have a way to get to work?
Help her find a job, first. Will her parents leave her alone if she's
working a lot? I suggest she stay there until she has some money and a job. I
wouldn't take her in, because it she is not going to suddenly mature and become
motivated just because she's away from her parents. She needs to show
initiative. Just asking to move in with someone else is not enough. She's old
enough to be working. If she really wants to get out, she should have a plan
to get a job and get some money and ways to cope with her family until she can
get that far.
Help her formulate the plan. Offer what you're willing to do to help her
execute it, without sacrificing your family's peace and happiness. Expect her
to do what she says she's going to do in return for what you will do, and
follow up on it. Don't let your daughter be the middleman between you and the
girl. If she wants adult help, she needs to be adult.
This is not advice I would expect to be giving about a totally unschooled
child, but it's advice I've learned through experience. I have a 20 yo who has
had trouble being responsible with his money (he left school at 11). We had
quite a few years of conflict over his desires to be an adult and his
inablity to function as one. He's past that, now. But I remember when he lived at
home, he would fail to do the things he agreed to do (pay his car insurance,
etc.) even though he had the resources to do so. All we wanted was for him
to have a plan based on his wishes, and to execute the plan. If his plan was
to chill out and not work for another year or so, then he'd have to expect
to have the lifestyle he had before he started working. We couldn't afford
the lifestyle of another fully-fledged adult--we were both working and since he
was too, we didn't expect to have to pay for a lot of his stuff. But he
expected us to.
This girl needs help, but you shouldn't bend over backwards for her unless
she is, too. If she really wants to get out *now* she's going to have to find
a live-in job somewhere or something like that. Amusement Parks,
housekeeper, nanny, elder care, cruise ship jobs are all things she could do and have a
place to live, too. Some of those things require an adventerous spirit, and
a willingness to leave it all behind. I could get really excited about some
of those jobs if I were 18 again!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
I just really get the feeing that you'd have a hard time looking
yourself in the mirror if you turned her away.
And, again, it might make life more difficult for your own kids, but
what a splendid example of compassion and caring you'd be for them, too.
I would, of course, get your own family together and explain your
thinking and make sure none of them have objections. I'd say any of
them ought to be able to veto it!
At 18, you don't have to do anything legal - she's an adult.
It is very very kind of you to want to help her - your own
obligations to your own family have to come first, of course, but it
really isn't the same as taking on another child.
Given that we have nothing to go on except what you convey, Julie,
I'd take her for 6 months to a year. I'd sit own and talk VERY
seriously - make it really clear that you think she is wonderful and
you want to be there to help her get on her feet and that you would
not do this if you didn't have a ton of confidence in her.
Specify very clearly what your expectations are about work, money,
helping around the house, treatment of her "temporary siblings," etc.
-pam
yourself in the mirror if you turned her away.
And, again, it might make life more difficult for your own kids, but
what a splendid example of compassion and caring you'd be for them, too.
I would, of course, get your own family together and explain your
thinking and make sure none of them have objections. I'd say any of
them ought to be able to veto it!
At 18, you don't have to do anything legal - she's an adult.
It is very very kind of you to want to help her - your own
obligations to your own family have to come first, of course, but it
really isn't the same as taking on another child.
Given that we have nothing to go on except what you convey, Julie,
I'd take her for 6 months to a year. I'd sit own and talk VERY
seriously - make it really clear that you think she is wonderful and
you want to be there to help her get on her feet and that you would
not do this if you didn't have a ton of confidence in her.
Specify very clearly what your expectations are about work, money,
helping around the house, treatment of her "temporary siblings," etc.
-pam
On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:24 PM, Julie Bogart wrote:
>
> We have five kids and a not very big house. Already double up on
> bedrooms. On the other hand, this girl is someone we love and have
> known for years. She is draining (very self-absorbed, obviously). She
> has had drug use issues in the past though currently we are to assume
> that she's not using any more.
>
> I guess my compassion is moved. I can only imagine how damaged she
> is/feels. I know we can't be the ones to heal her, but we might be a
> weigh station while she gets herself together. But is that a wise
> thing to do? And what would need to happen legally?
>
> I feel torn and want to be sure I make a decision that is both
> compassionate and yet wise (not just motivated by the urgency she
> communicates).
>
> Okay - fire away with advice. If we don't take her, anyone have ideas
> for how she can leave home and start on her own without much money?
> How can we help her?
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
they used. She's a good girl, actually, just very emotionally abused.
She's got a boyfriend that is a good guy too and we love and know him
well. He's in college locally.
etc. are no big deal at all. But who's paying her car insurance? And
what happens if she gets in an accident? And who buys her clothes or
pays for her applications to colleges etc.?
Don't let your daughter be the middleman between you and the
very smal persons currently. She's a passive person so this will be
ocmething for me to consider.
Julie
>Yes. She has a car. And she works at Wendy's.
> In a message dated 8/26/2005 9:24:22 PM Central Standard Time,
> julie@b... writes:
>
> Okay - fire away with advice. If we don't take her, anyone have ideas
> for how she can leave home and start on her own without much money?
> How can we help her?
>
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> Does she have a way to get to work?
>She has been working a lot and got "straight A's" in the curriculum
> Help her find a job, first. Will her parents leave her alone if she's
> working a lot?
they used. She's a good girl, actually, just very emotionally abused.
She's got a boyfriend that is a good guy too and we love and know him
well. He's in college locally.
>I suggest she stay there until she has some money and a job.This is what I'm trying to figure out. The money part. Of course meals
etc. are no big deal at all. But who's paying her car insurance? And
what happens if she gets in an accident? And who buys her clothes or
pays for her applications to colleges etc.?
>help her
> Help her formulate the plan. Offer what you're willing to do to
> execute it, without sacrificing your family's peace and happiness.Expect her
> to do what she says she's going to do in return for what you willdo, and
> follow up on it.That's a good axiom to remember.
Don't let your daughter be the middleman between you and the
> girl. If she wants adult help, she needs to be adult.Good! I'll ask to talk to ehr directly. That is a good idea.
>unless
> This girl needs help, but you shouldn't bend over backwards for her
> she is, too. If she really wants to get out *now* she's going tohave to find
> a live-in job somewhere or something like that. Amusement Parks,could do and have a
> housekeeper, nanny, elder care, cruise ship jobs are all things she
> place to live, too. Some of those things require an adventerousspirit, and
> a willingness to leave it all behind. I could get really excitedabout some
> of those jobs if I were 18 again!Thank Karen. Those are good ideas. I have a hunch she is one of those
very smal persons currently. She's a passive person so this will be
ocmething for me to consider.
Julie
Julie Bogart
I like this. In my heart, I want to do it. Logistically, it will be
demanding. But I think my dh and I can't really imagine turning her
down, really.
We'll have to talk to everyone, though.
Julie
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
demanding. But I think my dh and I can't really imagine turning her
down, really.
We'll have to talk to everyone, though.
Julie
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
>
> I just really get the feeing that you'd have a hard time looking
> yourself in the mirror if you turned her away.
>
> And, again, it might make life more difficult for your own kids, but
> what a splendid example of compassion and caring you'd be for them, too.
>
> I would, of course, get your own family together and explain your
> thinking and make sure none of them have objections. I'd say any of
> them ought to be able to veto it!
>
> At 18, you don't have to do anything legal - she's an adult.
>
> It is very very kind of you to want to help her - your own
> obligations to your own family have to come first, of course, but it
> really isn't the same as taking on another child.
>
> Given that we have nothing to go on except what you convey, Julie,
> I'd take her for 6 months to a year. I'd sit own and talk VERY
> seriously - make it really clear that you think she is wonderful and
> you want to be there to help her get on her feet and that you would
> not do this if you didn't have a ton of confidence in her.
>
> Specify very clearly what your expectations are about work, money,
> helping around the house, treatment of her "temporary siblings," etc.
>
> -pam
>
> On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:24 PM, Julie Bogart wrote:
>
> >
> > We have five kids and a not very big house. Already double up on
> > bedrooms. On the other hand, this girl is someone we love and have
> > known for years. She is draining (very self-absorbed, obviously). She
> > has had drug use issues in the past though currently we are to assume
> > that she's not using any more.
> >
> > I guess my compassion is moved. I can only imagine how damaged she
> > is/feels. I know we can't be the ones to heal her, but we might be a
> > weigh station while she gets herself together. But is that a wise
> > thing to do? And what would need to happen legally?
> >
> > I feel torn and want to be sure I make a decision that is both
> > compassionate and yet wise (not just motivated by the urgency she
> > communicates).
> >
> > Okay - fire away with advice. If we don't take her, anyone have ideas
> > for how she can leave home and start on her own without much money?
> > How can we help her?
Julie Bogart
Pam, just wanted to add that this girl won't be 18 until December.
Is there anything I need from the parents if we take her before then?
Anyone know?
Julie
Is there anything I need from the parents if we take her before then?
Anyone know?
Julie
> --- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshianthem, too.
> <pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> >
> > I just really get the feeing that you'd have a hard time looking
> > yourself in the mirror if you turned her away.
> >
> > And, again, it might make life more difficult for your own kids, but
> > what a splendid example of compassion and caring you'd be for
> >obviously). She
> > I would, of course, get your own family together and explain your
> > thinking and make sure none of them have objections. I'd say any of
> > them ought to be able to veto it!
> >
> > At 18, you don't have to do anything legal - she's an adult.
> >
> > It is very very kind of you to want to help her - your own
> > obligations to your own family have to come first, of course, but it
> > really isn't the same as taking on another child.
> >
> > Given that we have nothing to go on except what you convey, Julie,
> > I'd take her for 6 months to a year. I'd sit own and talk VERY
> > seriously - make it really clear that you think she is wonderful and
> > you want to be there to help her get on her feet and that you would
> > not do this if you didn't have a ton of confidence in her.
> >
> > Specify very clearly what your expectations are about work, money,
> > helping around the house, treatment of her "temporary siblings," etc.
> >
> > -pam
> >
> > On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:24 PM, Julie Bogart wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > We have five kids and a not very big house. Already double up on
> > > bedrooms. On the other hand, this girl is someone we love and have
> > > known for years. She is draining (very self-absorbed,
> > > has had drug use issues in the past though currently we are toassume
> > > that she's not using any more.ideas
> > >
> > > I guess my compassion is moved. I can only imagine how damaged she
> > > is/feels. I know we can't be the ones to heal her, but we might be a
> > > weigh station while she gets herself together. But is that a wise
> > > thing to do? And what would need to happen legally?
> > >
> > > I feel torn and want to be sure I make a decision that is both
> > > compassionate and yet wise (not just motivated by the urgency she
> > > communicates).
> > >
> > > Okay - fire away with advice. If we don't take her, anyone have
> > > for how she can leave home and start on her own without much money?
> > > How can we help her?
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/27/2005 10:12:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
julie@... writes:
Is there anything I need from the parents if we take her before then?
Anyone know?
Just this week I had to file for custody of a minor child. He's 17, will be
18 in April. All I had to do was go to the court intake office for
juveniles (the same place you go if they are in trouble) and file out the form and
get a court date set. Oh and pay the $25.00 fee for filing. ANYONE can apply
for custody of any minor, whether related or not (I'm not).
Those who have an interest are notified of the court date and the judge
hears the reasons why the minor child wants/needs to be elsewhere and makes a
decision.
Also at this time parents can be told to pay child support to this third
party and to pay health insurance for the child.
I live in VA, it may or may not be the same in your State. There is also a
thing called emancipation, which this child had wanted to do. Here in my
County they said a judge only grants about 1 out of 300 requests. Preferring to
allow the child to live somewhere else if need be but holding the parents
feet to the fire and making them pay support for the child as sort of penance
for not being able to be good parents.
My court date is not until next week. This information is only what I have
gotten from social services and from the juvenile intake officers.
While I have misgivings about this situation for myself, there is no one
else to help this child and I guess I kind of wish someone would have stepped up
for me when I was younger like him and being abused. So in helping him, in
a way I'm helping my own scared inner kid from long ago.
But this boy doesn't have drug issues or other issues to consider, so it's
different in that regard.
I hope this information helps you and that everything works out for you.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
Is there anything I need from the parents if we take her before then?
Anyone know?
Just this week I had to file for custody of a minor child. He's 17, will be
18 in April. All I had to do was go to the court intake office for
juveniles (the same place you go if they are in trouble) and file out the form and
get a court date set. Oh and pay the $25.00 fee for filing. ANYONE can apply
for custody of any minor, whether related or not (I'm not).
Those who have an interest are notified of the court date and the judge
hears the reasons why the minor child wants/needs to be elsewhere and makes a
decision.
Also at this time parents can be told to pay child support to this third
party and to pay health insurance for the child.
I live in VA, it may or may not be the same in your State. There is also a
thing called emancipation, which this child had wanted to do. Here in my
County they said a judge only grants about 1 out of 300 requests. Preferring to
allow the child to live somewhere else if need be but holding the parents
feet to the fire and making them pay support for the child as sort of penance
for not being able to be good parents.
My court date is not until next week. This information is only what I have
gotten from social services and from the juvenile intake officers.
While I have misgivings about this situation for myself, there is no one
else to help this child and I guess I kind of wish someone would have stepped up
for me when I was younger like him and being abused. So in helping him, in
a way I'm helping my own scared inner kid from long ago.
But this boy doesn't have drug issues or other issues to consider, so it's
different in that regard.
I hope this information helps you and that everything works out for you.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
Thank you! Now I know where to start. I've been googling half the
morning and not coming up with the right combo to learn anything.
Julie
morning and not coming up with the right combo to learn anything.
Julie
--- In [email protected], rubyprincesstsg@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/27/2005 10:12:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> julie@b... writes:
>
> Is there anything I need from the parents if we take her before then?
> Anyone know?
>
>
>
>
>
> Just this week I had to file for custody of a minor child. He's 17,
will be
> 18 in April. All I had to do was go to the court intake office for
> juveniles (the same place you go if they are in trouble) and file
out the form and
> get a court date set. Oh and pay the $25.00 fee for filing.
ANYONE can apply
> for custody of any minor, whether related or not (I'm not).
>
> Those who have an interest are notified of the court date and the
judge
> hears the reasons why the minor child wants/needs to be elsewhere
and makes a
> decision.
>
> Also at this time parents can be told to pay child support to this
third
> party and to pay health insurance for the child.
>
> I live in VA, it may or may not be the same in your State. There is
also a
> thing called emancipation, which this child had wanted to do. Here
in my
> County they said a judge only grants about 1 out of 300 requests.
Preferring to
> allow the child to live somewhere else if need be but holding the
parents
> feet to the fire and making them pay support for the child as sort
of penance
> for not being able to be good parents.
>
> My court date is not until next week. This information is only what
I have
> gotten from social services and from the juvenile intake officers.
>
> While I have misgivings about this situation for myself, there is no
one
> else to help this child and I guess I kind of wish someone would
have stepped up
> for me when I was younger like him and being abused. So in helping
him, in
> a way I'm helping my own scared inner kid from long ago.
>
> But this boy doesn't have drug issues or other issues to consider,
so it's
> different in that regard.
>
> I hope this information helps you and that everything works out for
you.
>
> glena
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
<julie@b...> wrote:
money in the bank for insurance is important, but does she
understand that if an insurance payment is automatically taken out
of her checking account and she doesn't have enough money in there,
she could end up without insurance, which could lead to big
problems? Or does she even have a checking account (and understand
how it works)?
Depending on what she knows and is capable of being responsible for,
you might need to handle her finances for her, help her with them,
or help her learn how to do it herself and check up on her
occasionally.
Knowing what she knows might help make it easier to see whether she
could be on her own or would be much better off with your family as
a transitional step.
--aj
<julie@b...> wrote:
> This is what I'm trying to figure out. The money part. Of coursemeals
> etc. are no big deal at all. But who's paying her car insurance?And
> what happens if she gets in an accident? And who buys her clothesor
> pays for her applications to colleges etc.?I wonder how much she knows about money management. Having enough
money in the bank for insurance is important, but does she
understand that if an insurance payment is automatically taken out
of her checking account and she doesn't have enough money in there,
she could end up without insurance, which could lead to big
problems? Or does she even have a checking account (and understand
how it works)?
Depending on what she knows and is capable of being responsible for,
you might need to handle her finances for her, help her with them,
or help her learn how to do it herself and check up on her
occasionally.
Knowing what she knows might help make it easier to see whether she
could be on her own or would be much better off with your family as
a transitional step.
--aj
Pam Sorooshian
If the parents aren't objecting, then, no. By the time you get
anything legal done, she'll BE 18 or very close to it.
However, if the parents are objecting, then you won't be able to get
anything legal done, anyway, so it behooves you all to make this
something the parents will allow.
Is it possible that the girl can just talk to her parents directly
about what they intend to continue to provide for her when she "moves
out?" I mean - it is very very common for kids to move out when they
turn 18 - regardless of where they're moving, there is always the
issue of insurance, etc. Also, for college financial aid purposes,
she's considered dependent even though she's 18.
If I was you, I would not get involved in those discussions with her
parents. I'd just make it clear to her that you're offering room and
board.
Her parents should keep her on their medical insurance, for example,
if she's a full-time college student. Car insurance is a different
issue - she might just have to pay for that herself if her parents
won't. But, she could ask them to continue to pay for it - all they
can do is say "no." Anyway - she should talk to them directly about
what financial support they'd continue to give her if she decided to
move out.
Maybe they'll be unhappy about her moving out and maybe they'll take
it as normal behavior for a kid turning 18.
It would be best for HER if she could move out with their agreement
and support. And that's probably most likely if she doesn't even talk
about where she's going until she's talked in more general terms with
them about what they'll do for her when she moves out.
-pam
anything legal done, she'll BE 18 or very close to it.
However, if the parents are objecting, then you won't be able to get
anything legal done, anyway, so it behooves you all to make this
something the parents will allow.
Is it possible that the girl can just talk to her parents directly
about what they intend to continue to provide for her when she "moves
out?" I mean - it is very very common for kids to move out when they
turn 18 - regardless of where they're moving, there is always the
issue of insurance, etc. Also, for college financial aid purposes,
she's considered dependent even though she's 18.
If I was you, I would not get involved in those discussions with her
parents. I'd just make it clear to her that you're offering room and
board.
Her parents should keep her on their medical insurance, for example,
if she's a full-time college student. Car insurance is a different
issue - she might just have to pay for that herself if her parents
won't. But, she could ask them to continue to pay for it - all they
can do is say "no." Anyway - she should talk to them directly about
what financial support they'd continue to give her if she decided to
move out.
Maybe they'll be unhappy about her moving out and maybe they'll take
it as normal behavior for a kid turning 18.
It would be best for HER if she could move out with their agreement
and support. And that's probably most likely if she doesn't even talk
about where she's going until she's talked in more general terms with
them about what they'll do for her when she moves out.
-pam
On Aug 27, 2005, at 7:12 AM, Julie Bogart wrote:
> Pam, just wanted to add that this girl won't be 18 until December.
>
> Is there anything I need from the parents if we take her before then?
> Anyone know?
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/27/2005 12:55:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
If the parents aren't objecting, then, no. By the time you get
anything legal done, she'll BE 18 or very close to it.
However, if the parents are objecting, then you won't be able to get
anything legal done, anyway, so it behooves you all to make this
something the parents will allow.
It takes about two weeks to get a custody petition on the dockets (here in
busy VA anyway), IF there is abuse or suspected abuse, you can rush it through
quicker.
If parents don't object it's simply a matter of signing the forms and the
judge ordering it.
If the parents DO object they will get their say and then the minor child
will speak and then the person seeking custody.
It's ALWAYS important to have something legally binding for a minor child.
If they are in an accident and need treatment, the person with custody would
be able to sign for treatment.
In my situation it started out with nothing illegal and in fact the parents
THROWING the child out. (because he missed church) Then he tried to go home
and talk to them a few times and they made him leave. So he called and told
them he was applying for emancipation and had a new job (did work for his
dad) and hoped they could have some sort of relationship at some time in the
future.
The next day he was arrested. He sits in juvenile detention right now and
could be released because there are no charges except he won't go home with
his parents and no one else has custody, yet.
So, IF we had gotten the legal custody two weeks ago when the boy first came
here, then there would not be a problem now.
You just never think of all the things that might come up when you have a
minor child living with you without any legal custody.
I'd recommend you get some sort of legal document.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
If the parents aren't objecting, then, no. By the time you get
anything legal done, she'll BE 18 or very close to it.
However, if the parents are objecting, then you won't be able to get
anything legal done, anyway, so it behooves you all to make this
something the parents will allow.
It takes about two weeks to get a custody petition on the dockets (here in
busy VA anyway), IF there is abuse or suspected abuse, you can rush it through
quicker.
If parents don't object it's simply a matter of signing the forms and the
judge ordering it.
If the parents DO object they will get their say and then the minor child
will speak and then the person seeking custody.
It's ALWAYS important to have something legally binding for a minor child.
If they are in an accident and need treatment, the person with custody would
be able to sign for treatment.
In my situation it started out with nothing illegal and in fact the parents
THROWING the child out. (because he missed church) Then he tried to go home
and talk to them a few times and they made him leave. So he called and told
them he was applying for emancipation and had a new job (did work for his
dad) and hoped they could have some sort of relationship at some time in the
future.
The next day he was arrested. He sits in juvenile detention right now and
could be released because there are no charges except he won't go home with
his parents and no one else has custody, yet.
So, IF we had gotten the legal custody two weeks ago when the boy first came
here, then there would not be a problem now.
You just never think of all the things that might come up when you have a
minor child living with you without any legal custody.
I'd recommend you get some sort of legal document.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<I mentioned over a year ago about a friend of my daughter's who was
going through a very rough time with her parents (she was being hit
and roughed up by her dad). ........
She is best friends with our daughter who has asked us if this girl
could stay here for six months. My daughter asked us to consider this
but she added that she herself is not excited about the possibility.
The friend is a real drain emotionally and our daughter has really
come to life once she was not as able to spend time with this friend.
..........She is draining (very self-absorbed, obviously). She
has had drug use issues in the past though currently we are to assume
that she's not using any more.
.......I can only imagine how damaged she
is/feels. I know we can't be the ones to heal her >>>>>>
This is a very difficult situation all around, as I think it was when you
first posted about this poor lass last time.
I don't know whether she should come to your home or not, but I have some
thoughts. I think you know this stuff already but I want to mention it
anyway.
She may be legally an adult, but as someone who has been abused, emotionally
she is most likely still the needy child she was when she was first abused.
People who have been hurt need some kind of therapy to "grow up" and become
healed. It took me at least 15 years after becoming 18 to do so, and I was
much less abused than this girl has been.
When I say therapy I mean that she will have a need to have "therapeutic
conversations" with someone, whether that be a counselor of some kind (this
is one time when being in a school may have helped her), a therapist, a
group therapy either formal or informal (eg Narcotics Anonymous). In the
absence of this she will likely make you and your dd her "therapists",
including getting angry if you touch her "sore points" of denial, which you
know must exist. It is a real need, and you have noted that she is draining
of your dd.
Without actively dealing with the damage that her psyche has suffered from
being abused, she will almost certainly continue to replay the negative
relationships she had with her parents with future romantic and even
professional relationships. She will almost certainly be attracted to and
drawn into relationships with men who will turn out to be abusive in
parallel and mirroring ways. And the person she will turn to in order to
unload her misery onto would likely be your dd.
I would suggest, regardless of whether she moves in with you, that one big
way to help her would be to find somewhere for these "therapeutic
conversations" to occur. Alice Miller speaks of the concept of the "witness"
to validate the child's negative feelings. Maybe there is a support group
for battered women nearby that she could join, or even a half way house or
shelter. If she still has a desire to use drugs, she might find NA to be
very freeing. Maybe there is some kind of therapy available through CPS.
Her dad had better beware. The moment she turns 18, if he hits her she can
call the cops and he'd be charged with assault. He would probably claim that
she was trespassing. Her parents could probably use some serious therapy
also.
Good luck with it, Julie.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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going through a very rough time with her parents (she was being hit
and roughed up by her dad). ........
She is best friends with our daughter who has asked us if this girl
could stay here for six months. My daughter asked us to consider this
but she added that she herself is not excited about the possibility.
The friend is a real drain emotionally and our daughter has really
come to life once she was not as able to spend time with this friend.
..........She is draining (very self-absorbed, obviously). She
has had drug use issues in the past though currently we are to assume
that she's not using any more.
.......I can only imagine how damaged she
is/feels. I know we can't be the ones to heal her >>>>>>
This is a very difficult situation all around, as I think it was when you
first posted about this poor lass last time.
I don't know whether she should come to your home or not, but I have some
thoughts. I think you know this stuff already but I want to mention it
anyway.
She may be legally an adult, but as someone who has been abused, emotionally
she is most likely still the needy child she was when she was first abused.
People who have been hurt need some kind of therapy to "grow up" and become
healed. It took me at least 15 years after becoming 18 to do so, and I was
much less abused than this girl has been.
When I say therapy I mean that she will have a need to have "therapeutic
conversations" with someone, whether that be a counselor of some kind (this
is one time when being in a school may have helped her), a therapist, a
group therapy either formal or informal (eg Narcotics Anonymous). In the
absence of this she will likely make you and your dd her "therapists",
including getting angry if you touch her "sore points" of denial, which you
know must exist. It is a real need, and you have noted that she is draining
of your dd.
Without actively dealing with the damage that her psyche has suffered from
being abused, she will almost certainly continue to replay the negative
relationships she had with her parents with future romantic and even
professional relationships. She will almost certainly be attracted to and
drawn into relationships with men who will turn out to be abusive in
parallel and mirroring ways. And the person she will turn to in order to
unload her misery onto would likely be your dd.
I would suggest, regardless of whether she moves in with you, that one big
way to help her would be to find somewhere for these "therapeutic
conversations" to occur. Alice Miller speaks of the concept of the "witness"
to validate the child's negative feelings. Maybe there is a support group
for battered women nearby that she could join, or even a half way house or
shelter. If she still has a desire to use drugs, she might find NA to be
very freeing. Maybe there is some kind of therapy available through CPS.
Her dad had better beware. The moment she turns 18, if he hits her she can
call the cops and he'd be charged with assault. He would probably claim that
she was trespassing. Her parents could probably use some serious therapy
also.
Good luck with it, Julie.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.16/83 - Release Date: 8/26/2005
Julie Bogart
>They will be objecting for sure if it's us. The parents have forbidden
> In a message dated 8/27/2005 12:55:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> pamsoroosh@e... writes:
>
> If the parents aren't objecting, then, no. By the time you get
> anything legal done, she'll BE 18 or very close to it.
>
> However, if the parents are objecting, then you won't be able to get
> anything legal done, anyway, so it behooves you all to make this
> something the parents will allow.
her to call or talk to us and our phone number is blocked. They have
also prohibited interaction with our daughter, who she sees weekly at
church anyway.
So I'm thinking that if we are going to be custodians of her, we need
to have something in writing to protect *us* from their claim that
we've kidnapped their daughter or anything like that.
They are not trustworthy at all.
>
--- In [email protected], rubyprincesstsg@a... wrote:
>
> If the parents DO object they will get their say and then the minor
child
> will speak and then the person seeking custody.
>
> It's ALWAYS important to have something legally binding for a minor
child.
> If they are in an accident and need treatment, the person with
custody would
> be able to sign for treatment.
This is precisely what I was thinking about.
>
> In my situation it started out with nothing illegal and in fact the
parents
> THROWING the child out. (because he missed church)
They must be cousins of my daughter's friend. Geesh. What is wrong
with parents?
> The next day he was arrested. He sits in juvenile detention right
now and
> could be released because there are no charges except he won't go
home with
> his parents and no one else has custody, yet.
Wow!
>
> So, IF we had gotten the legal custody two weeks ago when the boy
first came
> here, then there would not be a problem now.
>
> You just never think of all the things that might come up when you
have a
> minor child living with you without any legal custody.
>
> I'd recommend you get some sort of legal document.
Thanks for confirming that hunch. That is what I think too. I'm going
to call her today and talk things over.
Julie
[email protected]
I'm a whole day late and others might have said these things already.
-=-My daughter asked us to consider this...-=-
Why?
Why did she ask you to consider it?
Did she ask because her friend told her to?
Asked her to?
If she's unable to say no to her friend, that's a recipe for bullying or for
her losing her autonomy, if she's easily influenced by this girl, and
DEFINITELY for losing her privacy and freedom.
-=-. . . but she added that she herself is not excited about the possibility.
The friend is a real drain emotionally and our daughter has really
come to life once she was not as able to spend time with this friend.-=-
I would say "I've thought about it, and I don't think it would be good for
the family or for our own homeschooling situation." (or something to that
effect)
-=-She is draining (very self-absorbed, obviously). She
has had drug use issues in the past though currently we are to assume
that she's not using any more.
-=-
If you're left to assume, there's insufficient knowledge and up-front
openness.
-=-I know we can't be the ones to heal her, but we might be a
weigh station while she gets herself together.-=-
Way station. Weigh stations have to do with trucks and highways. Way
stations are stops along a journey. Sorry, can't help but keep you from
imagining that you need to weigh her as she passes in and out (and under the
circumstances it reminds me of drug testing...).
-=-I feel torn and want to be sure I make a decision that is both
compassionate and yet wise (not just motivated by the urgency she
communicates).-=-
You don't have to commit to six months. Maybe offer to help her find a
place to live (which would involve getting a job to pay for a place to live), and
say "until Thanksgiving" (or Halloween or some upcoming date of prominence).
That's a maybe IF you can't stand to say no.
Compassion toward outsiders siphons off compassion toward the kids you ARE
committed to attending to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-My daughter asked us to consider this...-=-
Why?
Why did she ask you to consider it?
Did she ask because her friend told her to?
Asked her to?
If she's unable to say no to her friend, that's a recipe for bullying or for
her losing her autonomy, if she's easily influenced by this girl, and
DEFINITELY for losing her privacy and freedom.
-=-. . . but she added that she herself is not excited about the possibility.
The friend is a real drain emotionally and our daughter has really
come to life once she was not as able to spend time with this friend.-=-
I would say "I've thought about it, and I don't think it would be good for
the family or for our own homeschooling situation." (or something to that
effect)
-=-She is draining (very self-absorbed, obviously). She
has had drug use issues in the past though currently we are to assume
that she's not using any more.
-=-
If you're left to assume, there's insufficient knowledge and up-front
openness.
-=-I know we can't be the ones to heal her, but we might be a
weigh station while she gets herself together.-=-
Way station. Weigh stations have to do with trucks and highways. Way
stations are stops along a journey. Sorry, can't help but keep you from
imagining that you need to weigh her as she passes in and out (and under the
circumstances it reminds me of drug testing...).
-=-I feel torn and want to be sure I make a decision that is both
compassionate and yet wise (not just motivated by the urgency she
communicates).-=-
You don't have to commit to six months. Maybe offer to help her find a
place to live (which would involve getting a job to pay for a place to live), and
say "until Thanksgiving" (or Halloween or some upcoming date of prominence).
That's a maybe IF you can't stand to say no.
Compassion toward outsiders siphons off compassion toward the kids you ARE
committed to attending to.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/26/05 9:36:51 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
though.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Sounded like the daughter had already objected, in word and mood-change,
> I would, of course, get your own family together and explain your
> thinking and make sure none of them have objections.
>
though.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Aug 27, 2005, at 5:15 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
it. So I took it to mean that the daughter understood that it could
be a difficult period of time - not all exciting and fun and all
that. And that she wanted her parents to consider it, anyway.
Anyway - lots of useful feedback was given and Julie's obviously
going to have to figure out what she's willing to do.
-pam
>Maybe. What Julie said was that her daughter wasn't "excited" about
>
>>
>> I would, of course, get your own family together and explain your
>> thinking and make sure none of them have objections.
>>
>>
>
> Sounded like the daughter had already objected, in word and mood-
> change,
> though.
it. So I took it to mean that the daughter understood that it could
be a difficult period of time - not all exciting and fun and all
that. And that she wanted her parents to consider it, anyway.
Anyway - lots of useful feedback was given and Julie's obviously
going to have to figure out what she's willing to do.
-pam
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
she's not excited about it, she really appreciated knowing tha twe
cared enough to consider it and if there really was no else for this
friend to go, she'd want her here.
My 11 year old son came to tell me personally that we should take her.
:) He's our compassionate guy.
I called this girl yesterday afternoon and we were able to look over
the specifics of her situation with her parents. She really wants to
go to college. This is something dh and I can easily help her with. I
gave her a task to complete over the next couple of days and I'm going
to make some legal inquiries.
She is convinced her parents would flip if they thought she had moved
here. So I told her that as a minor she can't come unless we obtain
legal permission from them (and the money she deserves) to live with
us. It may be that her coming to be with us will provide someleverage,
however - some bargaining power for her to be able to get some money
for school etc.
We'll see.
All the advice was really really helpful. My dh and I will keep
sorting things out. At least we can help her with her college goal and
give her the vision to keep going. She was so grateful yesterday when
I just laid out the steps for her. She didn't even know where to
start. Now that she's got tasks to perform, she sounded empowered. It
was a dear phone call. I'm used to her being more reticent but this
time she sounded positively brave. Hope that's a sign of good things
to come.
Julie
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
>That's exactly right. In fact she told me last night that even though
> On Aug 27, 2005, at 5:15 PM, SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I would, of course, get your own family together and explain your
> >> thinking and make sure none of them have objections.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Sounded like the daughter had already objected, in word and mood-
> > change,
> > though.
>
>
> Maybe. What Julie said was that her daughter wasn't "excited" about
> it. So I took it to mean that the daughter understood that it could
> be a difficult period of time - not all exciting and fun and all
> that. And that she wanted her parents to consider it, anyway.
she's not excited about it, she really appreciated knowing tha twe
cared enough to consider it and if there really was no else for this
friend to go, she'd want her here.
My 11 year old son came to tell me personally that we should take her.
:) He's our compassionate guy.
I called this girl yesterday afternoon and we were able to look over
the specifics of her situation with her parents. She really wants to
go to college. This is something dh and I can easily help her with. I
gave her a task to complete over the next couple of days and I'm going
to make some legal inquiries.
She is convinced her parents would flip if they thought she had moved
here. So I told her that as a minor she can't come unless we obtain
legal permission from them (and the money she deserves) to live with
us. It may be that her coming to be with us will provide someleverage,
however - some bargaining power for her to be able to get some money
for school etc.
We'll see.
All the advice was really really helpful. My dh and I will keep
sorting things out. At least we can help her with her college goal and
give her the vision to keep going. She was so grateful yesterday when
I just laid out the steps for her. She didn't even know where to
start. Now that she's got tasks to perform, she sounded empowered. It
was a dear phone call. I'm used to her being more reticent but this
time she sounded positively brave. Hope that's a sign of good things
to come.
Julie
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/28/05 2:04:47 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
There have been times my kids asked me whether another kid could come over
(or something similar) and it seemed clear that they were only asking becuse
they had agreed to ask, but really wanted the answer to be no. They wanted me
to say no, because they had failed to have the courage to say no, or just
didn't know what their options really were or how to word a "no."
If I had taken their words just at face value without reading their posture
and tone and hesitation, I might've agreed to something they truly didn't want.
I grew up with the ill effects of my parents having taken in cousins. I
suppose it improved their lives, but at a cost to mine and my sisters' and to my
parents. We lost our family as a unit from then on.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Maybe. What Julie said was that her daughter wasn't "excited" about================
> it. So I took it to mean that the daughter understood that it could
> be a difficult period of time - not all exciting and fun and all
> that. And that she wanted her parents to consider it, anyway.
>
There have been times my kids asked me whether another kid could come over
(or something similar) and it seemed clear that they were only asking becuse
they had agreed to ask, but really wanted the answer to be no. They wanted me
to say no, because they had failed to have the courage to say no, or just
didn't know what their options really were or how to word a "no."
If I had taken their words just at face value without reading their posture
and tone and hesitation, I might've agreed to something they truly didn't want.
I grew up with the ill effects of my parents having taken in cousins. I
suppose it improved their lives, but at a cost to mine and my sisters' and to my
parents. We lost our family as a unit from then on.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cally Brown
SandraDodd@... wrote:
the way to say 'no' to such things, they can ask me to do it for them.
My oldest used that a few times when he was a teen: he was very peer
dependent (no, he wasn't fully unschooled if you want to know!). If he
was out and got asked to to do something / go somewhere he felt
uncomfortable about, he'd say he had to ring. He'd ask, I'd say 'do you
want to' and if he said no (his mates didn't know what the no was about)
I'd say 'no you can't' and then he had an excuse and wouldn't lose face.
My youngest uses it because he can't bear to hurt people: if a friend
rings and wants him to go over, he can't say 'no', so we go through the
same process. He's now 15 and is learning to say, 'Thanks, but maybe
another day, I'm too tired / don't feel like going out today' or
whatever. he's learning, but still finds it hard.
Of course people have thought that I am a mean mother at times, but I
don't care: my kids' feelings are more important.
Meanwhile I would talk through how they could do it themselves, and
model it myself. That last has been a big one: I'm 53 and was brought up
in a time-culture where women were largely expected to not hurt, to
please others blah blah de blah. I have had to learn - for my own sake
and for my kids sake. But we also talk about how much something matters
to us, how much it means to the other person, and work from there, when
we have the time.
Cally
> There have been times my kids asked me whether another kid could comeI have always told my kids that if they really can't find the words or
> over
> (or something similar) and it seemed clear that they were only asking
> becuse
> they had agreed to ask, but really wanted the answer to be no. They
> wanted me
> to say no, because they had failed to have the courage to say no, or just
> didn't know what their options really were or how to word a "no."
the way to say 'no' to such things, they can ask me to do it for them.
My oldest used that a few times when he was a teen: he was very peer
dependent (no, he wasn't fully unschooled if you want to know!). If he
was out and got asked to to do something / go somewhere he felt
uncomfortable about, he'd say he had to ring. He'd ask, I'd say 'do you
want to' and if he said no (his mates didn't know what the no was about)
I'd say 'no you can't' and then he had an excuse and wouldn't lose face.
My youngest uses it because he can't bear to hurt people: if a friend
rings and wants him to go over, he can't say 'no', so we go through the
same process. He's now 15 and is learning to say, 'Thanks, but maybe
another day, I'm too tired / don't feel like going out today' or
whatever. he's learning, but still finds it hard.
Of course people have thought that I am a mean mother at times, but I
don't care: my kids' feelings are more important.
Meanwhile I would talk through how they could do it themselves, and
model it myself. That last has been a big one: I'm 53 and was brought up
in a time-culture where women were largely expected to not hurt, to
please others blah blah de blah. I have had to learn - for my own sake
and for my kids sake. But we also talk about how much something matters
to us, how much it means to the other person, and work from there, when
we have the time.
Cally
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Julie Bogart <julie@...>
She is convinced her parents would flip if they thought she had moved
here. So I told her that as a minor she can't come unless we obtain
legal permission from them (and the money she deserves) to live with
us. It may be that her coming to be with us will provide someleverage,
however - some bargaining power for her to be able to get some money
for school etc.
-=-=-=-
Have you looked into City Year at all?
www.cityyear.org
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: Julie Bogart <julie@...>
She is convinced her parents would flip if they thought she had moved
here. So I told her that as a minor she can't come unless we obtain
legal permission from them (and the money she deserves) to live with
us. It may be that her coming to be with us will provide someleverage,
however - some bargaining power for her to be able to get some money
for school etc.
-=-=-=-
Have you looked into City Year at all?
www.cityyear.org
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org