How do you support a child's goal?
Julie Bogart
I have two kids who've asked me to help them complete goals they have
for themselves. One of them is 11 and he is a leftie. He struggles
with handwriting. He keyboards very well and he likes to copy poetry.
So he's done that off and on according to his own interests for the
last several years.
Just last week, he went paintballing and had to fill out one of those
little forms. His writing couldn't fit in the lines. I wasn't there.
He went with his dad.
He came home and told me he wanted to work on handwriting and would I
help him. He said it would be nice to be able to draw well (he wants
to work for Wizards of the Coast some day desigining gaming cards...)
and to have "beautiful handwriting" (his words). :)
Here's the thing.
I want to help him without it becoming a chore. I talked with him
about what feels like the best approach and he gave me ideas. He began
on his own yesterday. Thing is, this isn't the first time he's brought
up wanting to work on handwriting. We've moved downt hat path before
but then he gets frustrated and stops. I've not interfered figruing at
some point when he's ready he'll learn or not. Not that big a deal to me.
But since it matters to him and since he talks about how he wishes
he'd stick with his goals, I wondered if there is more I can do to
support him without it becoming school-y or coercive...
Any ideas?
I have another kid who asks for help in reaching his goals then quits
then hates himself for quitting and then wishes I'd have made him
finish... bad cycle.
So how do you all handle this?
Julie
for themselves. One of them is 11 and he is a leftie. He struggles
with handwriting. He keyboards very well and he likes to copy poetry.
So he's done that off and on according to his own interests for the
last several years.
Just last week, he went paintballing and had to fill out one of those
little forms. His writing couldn't fit in the lines. I wasn't there.
He went with his dad.
He came home and told me he wanted to work on handwriting and would I
help him. He said it would be nice to be able to draw well (he wants
to work for Wizards of the Coast some day desigining gaming cards...)
and to have "beautiful handwriting" (his words). :)
Here's the thing.
I want to help him without it becoming a chore. I talked with him
about what feels like the best approach and he gave me ideas. He began
on his own yesterday. Thing is, this isn't the first time he's brought
up wanting to work on handwriting. We've moved downt hat path before
but then he gets frustrated and stops. I've not interfered figruing at
some point when he's ready he'll learn or not. Not that big a deal to me.
But since it matters to him and since he talks about how he wishes
he'd stick with his goals, I wondered if there is more I can do to
support him without it becoming school-y or coercive...
Any ideas?
I have another kid who asks for help in reaching his goals then quits
then hates himself for quitting and then wishes I'd have made him
finish... bad cycle.
So how do you all handle this?
Julie
Deb Lewis
***Any ideas? ***
What about playing Mad Libs and let him list the words and fill in all
the blanks? Some of those blanks are teeny.
Deb L
What about playing Mad Libs and let him list the words and fill in all
the blanks? Some of those blanks are teeny.
Deb L
Danielle Conger
Deb Lewis wrote:
on? They looked really cool, and it would directly tie into his interest
with trading cards.
I can't make the conference link work right now, or I'd copy and paste
it, but Ren's description of her funshop has a great link.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
> ***Any ideas? ***What about creating some of the Art Trading Cards Ren's doing a funshop
>
> What about playing Mad Libs and let him list the words and fill in all
> the blanks? Some of those blanks are teeny.
on? They looked really cool, and it would directly tie into his interest
with trading cards.
I can't make the conference link work right now, or I'd copy and paste
it, but Ren's description of her funshop has a great link.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/05 7:30:37 AM, julie@... writes:
the right (hard for lefties it seems) and say "no hurry, just mess with it when
you want to and let me know when you want something else." Don't let him
put the responsibility on you. If he really DOES get good at a line of
repetitive circly stuff, move to loopy stuff or m n m n m n (if he's wanting connected
cursive).
Maybe find something he likes like lyrics to a song or a poem and ask him to
have that as a project. He could practice lines or words from that (not the
full thing at once, at first, unless he just wanted to).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I have another kid who asks for help in reaching his goals then quitsYou could just show him a little exercise, maybe, like a line of c or o, to
> then hates himself for quitting and then wishes I'd have made him
> finish... bad cycle.
>
>
the right (hard for lefties it seems) and say "no hurry, just mess with it when
you want to and let me know when you want something else." Don't let him
put the responsibility on you. If he really DOES get good at a line of
repetitive circly stuff, move to loopy stuff or m n m n m n (if he's wanting connected
cursive).
Maybe find something he likes like lyrics to a song or a poem and ask him to
have that as a project. He could practice lines or words from that (not the
full thing at once, at first, unless he just wanted to).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jimpetersonl
Drafting supply houses carry templates for architects and engineers.
My Dh (righty with poor digit feedback) used one in his teens to
practice his lettering so he could form legible letters.
Dd, a lefty, has the same processing issue (there's a lot of folks out
there who needlessly suffer because they don't know their fingers
don't send the same signals to their brains that the rest of the
population gets), and is doing the same thing.
There are a number of templates out there in a number of sizes
(beginning with huge finger-trace and moving to kindergarten-sized
tracables right down to the drafting ones) . . .
~Sue
My Dh (righty with poor digit feedback) used one in his teens to
practice his lettering so he could form legible letters.
Dd, a lefty, has the same processing issue (there's a lot of folks out
there who needlessly suffer because they don't know their fingers
don't send the same signals to their brains that the rest of the
population gets), and is doing the same thing.
There are a number of templates out there in a number of sizes
(beginning with huge finger-trace and moving to kindergarten-sized
tracables right down to the drafting ones) . . .
~Sue
> I have two kids who've asked me to help them complete goals they haveto me.
> for themselves. One of them is 11 and he is a leftie. He struggles
> with handwriting. He keyboards very well and he likes to copy poetry.
> So he's done that off and on according to his own interests for the
> last several years.
>
> Just last week, he went paintballing and had to fill out one of those
> little forms. His writing couldn't fit in the lines. I wasn't there.
> He went with his dad.
>
> He came home and told me he wanted to work on handwriting and would I
> help him. He said it would be nice to be able to draw well (he wants
> to work for Wizards of the Coast some day desigining gaming cards...)
> and to have "beautiful handwriting" (his words). :)
>
> Here's the thing.
>
> I want to help him without it becoming a chore. I talked with him
> about what feels like the best approach and he gave me ideas. He began
> on his own yesterday. Thing is, this isn't the first time he's brought
> up wanting to work on handwriting. We've moved downt hat path before
> but then he gets frustrated and stops. I've not interfered figruing at
> some point when he's ready he'll learn or not. Not that big a deal
>
> But since it matters to him and since he talks about how he wishes
> he'd stick with his goals, I wondered if there is more I can do to
> support him without it becoming school-y or coercive...
>
> Any ideas?
>
> I have another kid who asks for help in reaching his goals then quits
> then hates himself for quitting and then wishes I'd have made him
> finish... bad cycle.
>
> So how do you all handle this?
>
> Julie
Julie Bogart
Templates! That's a great idea. I have a hunch my son might have that
processing issue you mentioned. He so wants to do it well. He made a
notebook last year of an island chain with maps, flags, weaponry,
naval fleets etc. His handwriting was scrawling and big. But if you
look at it closely, each letter has this unique shape. He follows the
print the way it's typed so his 'a's look like a typewritten 'a' and
he makes his 'g's like they are in standard type too.
He's observant to those kinds of details but is struggling to make the
translation from what his mind sees to what his hand can do.
I'll try this, thanks. Drafting supply stores... will have to figure
out where one might be.
Julie
--- In [email protected], "jimpetersonl"
<jimpetersonl@h...> wrote:
processing issue you mentioned. He so wants to do it well. He made a
notebook last year of an island chain with maps, flags, weaponry,
naval fleets etc. His handwriting was scrawling and big. But if you
look at it closely, each letter has this unique shape. He follows the
print the way it's typed so his 'a's look like a typewritten 'a' and
he makes his 'g's like they are in standard type too.
He's observant to those kinds of details but is struggling to make the
translation from what his mind sees to what his hand can do.
I'll try this, thanks. Drafting supply stores... will have to figure
out where one might be.
Julie
--- In [email protected], "jimpetersonl"
<jimpetersonl@h...> wrote:
> Drafting supply houses carry templates for architects and engineers.
> My Dh (righty with poor digit feedback) used one in his teens to
> practice his lettering so he could form legible letters.
>
> Dd, a lefty, has the same processing issue (there's a lot of folks out
> there who needlessly suffer because they don't know their fingers
> don't send the same signals to their brains that the rest of the
> population gets), and is doing the same thing.
>
> There are a number of templates out there in a number of sizes
> (beginning with huge finger-trace and moving to kindergarten-sized
> tracables right down to the drafting ones) . . .
>
> ~Sue
>
> > I have two kids who've asked me to help them complete goals they have
> > for themselves. One of them is 11 and he is a leftie. He struggles
> > with handwriting. He keyboards very well and he likes to copy poetry.
> > So he's done that off and on according to his own interests for the
> > last several years.
> >
> > Just last week, he went paintballing and had to fill out one of those
> > little forms. His writing couldn't fit in the lines. I wasn't there.
> > He went with his dad.
> >
> > He came home and told me he wanted to work on handwriting and would I
> > help him. He said it would be nice to be able to draw well (he wants
> > to work for Wizards of the Coast some day desigining gaming cards...)
> > and to have "beautiful handwriting" (his words). :)
> >
> > Here's the thing.
> >
> > I want to help him without it becoming a chore. I talked with him
> > about what feels like the best approach and he gave me ideas. He began
> > on his own yesterday. Thing is, this isn't the first time he's brought
> > up wanting to work on handwriting. We've moved downt hat path before
> > but then he gets frustrated and stops. I've not interfered figruing at
> > some point when he's ready he'll learn or not. Not that big a deal
> to me.
> >
> > But since it matters to him and since he talks about how he wishes
> > he'd stick with his goals, I wondered if there is more I can do to
> > support him without it becoming school-y or coercive...
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > I have another kid who asks for help in reaching his goals then quits
> > then hates himself for quitting and then wishes I'd have made him
> > finish... bad cycle.
> >
> > So how do you all handle this?
> >
> > Julie
elizabeth roberts
Maybe a nice calligraphy set and plenty of paper to practice with?
Elizabeth
Julie Bogart <julie@...> wrote:
I have two kids who've asked me to help them complete goals they have
for themselves. One of them is 11 and he is a leftie. He struggles
with handwriting. He keyboards very well and he likes to copy poetry.
So he's done that off and on according to his own interests for the
last several years.
Just last week, he went paintballing and had to fill out one of those
little forms. His writing couldn't fit in the lines. I wasn't there.
He went with his dad.
He came home and told me he wanted to work on handwriting and would I
help him. He said it would be nice to be able to draw well (he wants
to work for Wizards of the Coast some day desigining gaming cards...)
and to have "beautiful handwriting" (his words). :)
Here's the thing.
I want to help him without it becoming a chore. I talked with him
about what feels like the best approach and he gave me ideas. He began
on his own yesterday. Thing is, this isn't the first time he's brought
up wanting to work on handwriting. We've moved downt hat path before
but then he gets frustrated and stops. I've not interfered figruing at
some point when he's ready he'll learn or not. Not that big a deal to me.
But since it matters to him and since he talks about how he wishes
he'd stick with his goals, I wondered if there is more I can do to
support him without it becoming school-y or coercive...
Any ideas?
I have another kid who asks for help in reaching his goals then quits
then hates himself for quitting and then wishes I'd have made him
finish... bad cycle.
So how do you all handle this?
Julie
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Elizabeth
Julie Bogart <julie@...> wrote:
I have two kids who've asked me to help them complete goals they have
for themselves. One of them is 11 and he is a leftie. He struggles
with handwriting. He keyboards very well and he likes to copy poetry.
So he's done that off and on according to his own interests for the
last several years.
Just last week, he went paintballing and had to fill out one of those
little forms. His writing couldn't fit in the lines. I wasn't there.
He went with his dad.
He came home and told me he wanted to work on handwriting and would I
help him. He said it would be nice to be able to draw well (he wants
to work for Wizards of the Coast some day desigining gaming cards...)
and to have "beautiful handwriting" (his words). :)
Here's the thing.
I want to help him without it becoming a chore. I talked with him
about what feels like the best approach and he gave me ideas. He began
on his own yesterday. Thing is, this isn't the first time he's brought
up wanting to work on handwriting. We've moved downt hat path before
but then he gets frustrated and stops. I've not interfered figruing at
some point when he's ready he'll learn or not. Not that big a deal to me.
But since it matters to him and since he talks about how he wishes
he'd stick with his goals, I wondered if there is more I can do to
support him without it becoming school-y or coercive...
Any ideas?
I have another kid who asks for help in reaching his goals then quits
then hates himself for quitting and then wishes I'd have made him
finish... bad cycle.
So how do you all handle this?
Julie
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
SPONSORED LINKS
Graduate school education High school education Home school education Middle school education School education in california Secondary school education
---------------------------------
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Visit your group "UnschoolingDiscussion" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
>Goals like improved handwriting?
> I have another kid who asks for help in reaching his goals then quits
> then hates himself for quitting and then wishes I'd have made him
> finish... bad cycle.
There is something in your description of the kids setting goals that
is bothering me - making me itch a little.
I'd like to hear what the other goals are like - the kinds of goals
the other child is "quitting" and then hating himself for quitting.
Those are some STRONG words you used.
I'm torn, in answering, because of this odd itchy feeling your post
is giving me. I know one thing that's bothering me, a little, though
- that is the way you described his asking for help to help him
improve his handwriting. I'd expect to hear about the ways HE has
decided to go about doing it - it isn't at all hard for an 11 yo kid
to figure out how to improve his own handwriting - to come up with
ways to do that. So it is giving me pause that he's coming to you for
help as he is. I mean - he could come and say, "I need you to write
something for me to trace," or "Write the letters for me so I can see
what good handwriting looks like." Or he could come and say, "I want
to buy a handwriting workbook." Or there are MANY things he might ask
you, Julie. But - there is something overly helpless in the way you
described him asking AND here you are asking us. It is like you're
going to take charge - come up with a system of learning FOR him.
IF that is the way your other son's goals have been approached, then
ONE reason they've failed is because they were too much yours and not
enough his own.
The way you know someone is serious about achieving a goal is that
THEY come up with the steps to do so and THEY work on the first step
until they succeed and then THEY move on to the second.
But I have a feeling you're getting involved too quickly. I know
there is a fine line between being supportive and getting too
involved - but I just have this underlying feeling that you're doing
the latter.
So - oddly enough - my suggestion for you is to back off.
You can casually say, "Oh - don't get too worried about it - LOTS of
really brilliant successful people have trouble with handwriting,"
And if he insists that he wants some "system" for improving his, you
can say, "Handwriting usually just gets better with practice and as
people get older."
I feel like you're taking over the MOST important part of this - the
process of figuring out how to respond, himself, to his OWN feelings,
urges, desires - how to figure out how to get what he wants.
If one of my daughters had come to me and said, "I want to learn to
read," I wouldn't immediately start trying to figure out some system
for helping her learn to read. I'd say, "I know. You will."
I just have this feeling that you're taking over the goals - at least
just a bit. Maybe you're worried about his poor penmanship and just a
little too pleased at the chance that he'll improve it?
I'm thinking that what both kids sound like they need to learn is not
how to achieve their goals, but how to relax and let the learning
happen naturally. Too much "goal-setting' for young kids who are
better off living in the here and now and not feeling ashamed or
guilty (and therefore hating themselves) and too much thinking YOU
have responsibility for their learning. You're just not really away
from that mindset far enough - that's what is making me itchy.
The best "help" you could give him would be NOT to step in and
organize his learning for him - but to just say encouraging things
like, "You'll learn. It'll happen."
Respond to his SPECIFIC requests, of course. But I think you have to
lay off MORE than some other people, at least for a while, because
your kids are still asking you to be responsible for their learning.
So even offering a whole list of possible ideas of how he can improve
his handwriting - and letting him decide which of your ideas he might
choose to try to reach his goals - I think that is coming across as
handing the responsibility over to you.
Oh - and I'm also going to guess that he really doesn't, in fact,
want to spend time working to improve his handwriting. He just wants
it to be better. Those are different.
I want to BE a good horse rider.
My daughter wants to LEARN to be a good rider.
I seldom get on a horse.
She spent hours and hours, several days per week, ON a horse.
Your son wants to HAVE good handwriting.
You're interpreting that as if he wants to LEARN to have good
handwriting.
When I say I want to BE a good horse rider, I really don't need
anybody to give me a list of options as to how I could learn to be a
good rider. If I really wanted to LEARN to ride, I'd be figuring out
how to do that.
I think you're jumping in with ideas of how to improve his
handwriting - but if he really wanted to LEARN to write better, he'd
be figuring out how to do that.
It isn't that hard to tell the difference between a kid wanting to
learn something versus just wishing they KNEW something. Sounds like
you need to be more aware of that difference and not respond to the
latter - you really need to let them have that experience of wishing
they knew something but not really wanting to spend time or energy
learning it.
If he wanted to LEARN to write better, he'd be WRITING all the time,
trying to do it better and better. It would be on his OWN initiative,
he would not need to ask you for help with that unless he needed you
to get him paper or pens or something concrete like help him find
writing samples to trace or copy.
When my daughter wanted to LEARN to ride horses, she asked for a
horse! <G> Pretty concrete. She said, "I want to find somewhere that
I can ride horses." Okay - that is a specific request and I was able
to help her with THAT one.
When your son asks for paper and pens to practice his handwriting -
help him with that. Be really careful that you're not making too big
a deal out of "goals."
-pam
Betsy Hill
** You can casually say, "Oh - don't get too worried about it - LOTS of
really brilliant successful people have trouble with handwriting,"**
I agree with this. I have above average handwriting and have done
caligraphy, and there are some blanks on forms that are just too darn
small to fill out. I was filling out one this week that was like that.
Sometimes people designing forms just keep squishing and squishing,
rather than add a second page.
Betsy
really brilliant successful people have trouble with handwriting,"**
I agree with this. I have above average handwriting and have done
caligraphy, and there are some blanks on forms that are just too darn
small to fill out. I was filling out one this week that was like that.
Sometimes people designing forms just keep squishing and squishing,
rather than add a second page.
Betsy
Betsy Hill
** Oh - and I'm also going to guess that he really doesn't, in fact,
want to spend time working to improve his handwriting. He just wants
it to be better. Those are different.**
In our house we make a distinction between things we really want to
"do", and things that we just want to get done or have done. I want to
have done the weeding in the back, but I surely don't want to do it. <G>
I also think with handwriting, one or two practice sessions may be all
he can do before running into limitations with his finger control at
this age. Stopping then, and coming back to it later, isn't quitting,
it's good strategy. Maybe help him learn not to beat himself up?
(Probably difficult, but a great topic we can explore here.)
Betsy
want to spend time working to improve his handwriting. He just wants
it to be better. Those are different.**
In our house we make a distinction between things we really want to
"do", and things that we just want to get done or have done. I want to
have done the weeding in the back, but I surely don't want to do it. <G>
I also think with handwriting, one or two practice sessions may be all
he can do before running into limitations with his finger control at
this age. Stopping then, and coming back to it later, isn't quitting,
it's good strategy. Maybe help him learn not to beat himself up?
(Probably difficult, but a great topic we can explore here.)
Betsy
Betsy Hill
** I'll try this, thanks. Drafting supply stores... will have to figure
out where one might be.**
I think the big office supply stores carry some templates. (Good luck
figuring out which aisle they are on! <g>)
Betsy
out where one might be.**
I think the big office supply stores carry some templates. (Good luck
figuring out which aisle they are on! <g>)
Betsy
nellebelle
>>>>>>>>>You could just show him a little exercise, maybe, like a line of c or o, tothe right (hard for lefties it seems) and say "no hurry, just mess with it when
you want to and let me know when you want something else." Don't let him
put the responsibility on you. If he really DOES get good at a line of
repetitive circly stuff, move to loopy stuff or m n m n m n (if he's wanting connected
cursive).>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have some nice calligraphy supplies (hand me down from my mom who made greeting cards and wedding invitations for awhile). One of the things is lined paper in many different widths. It can be used for practice or to put underneath the paper you are writing on. He *might* enjoy playing around with something like that. My girls dig it out now and then. I suppose it isn't that different from the pads they sell in school supplies with bigger lines for littler kids and little lines for bigger kids, except that the calligraphy is real and grown up while the exercise pads tend to be schooly.
I remember that my mom often did her work in larger sizes, then used copy machines to shrink it down.
Be sure to mention to him that some adults who can write quite nicely still have a difficult time writing in the tiny spaces that are sometimes provided on forms!
Sometimes it is hard to separate when kids want to achieve a goal because they want it, and when it is driven by others saying things that make the child feel they *should* be able to achieve it.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I think templates are more expensive and inflexible than you need.
Workbooks (disposable and cheap) might be better, if you really want to get him
samples he can practice with/on/in.
Marty told me he was in a conversation a few weeks back and the group he was
with needed someone to take notes on whatever brilliant plans they were coming
up with or something. Marty said his handwriting wasn't very good (and so
he was dis-volunteering to be the notetaker). Two of the other kids asked
why, but he said they weren't being critical, and he said that he'd never had a
reason to need to have good handwriting.
Meanwhile, over at the pizza place, a lot of Kirby's job is taking phone
orders down, and so he's getting the first extended real-time handwriting practice
of his life. If he could type it, computer-keyboard-and-print, he'd be a
whiz. The other most time-critical writing has been when he's judged karate
belt tests and needed to put comments after scores. Luckily for those forms,
Kirby writes tiny. Luckily for Kirby, part of the discipline and tradition
of the tests is waiting for the judges to finish writing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Workbooks (disposable and cheap) might be better, if you really want to get him
samples he can practice with/on/in.
Marty told me he was in a conversation a few weeks back and the group he was
with needed someone to take notes on whatever brilliant plans they were coming
up with or something. Marty said his handwriting wasn't very good (and so
he was dis-volunteering to be the notetaker). Two of the other kids asked
why, but he said they weren't being critical, and he said that he'd never had a
reason to need to have good handwriting.
Meanwhile, over at the pizza place, a lot of Kirby's job is taking phone
orders down, and so he's getting the first extended real-time handwriting practice
of his life. If he could type it, computer-keyboard-and-print, he'd be a
whiz. The other most time-critical writing has been when he's judged karate
belt tests and needed to put comments after scores. Luckily for those forms,
Kirby writes tiny. Luckily for Kirby, part of the discipline and tradition
of the tests is waiting for the judges to finish writing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/05 10:51:37 AM, nellebelle@... writes:
It's not for beginners.
Neither are fountain pens. Except for wedge-cut felt tip pens, I wouldn't
recommend calligraphy except to kids who already have flowing handwriting and
want to move on to something fancy.
But as to reduction, Kirby's birth announcement was a family tree and I wrote
all the names the same size, then reduced them all the various amounts, and
pasted it up (smaller toward grandparents) and then had the chosen girl name
and boy name ready to paste when it was time at the printshop. Some people
thought, then, that I could do teensy calligraphy, but it was smaller than the
ink could function, at the great-grandparent level.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I used to do calligraphy, with dip pens and India ink.
> I remember that my mom often did her work in larger sizes, then used copy
> machines to shrink it down.
>
It's not for beginners.
Neither are fountain pens. Except for wedge-cut felt tip pens, I wouldn't
recommend calligraphy except to kids who already have flowing handwriting and
want to move on to something fancy.
But as to reduction, Kirby's birth announcement was a family tree and I wrote
all the names the same size, then reduced them all the various amounts, and
pasted it up (smaller toward grandparents) and then had the chosen girl name
and boy name ready to paste when it was time at the printshop. Some people
thought, then, that I could do teensy calligraphy, but it was smaller than the
ink could function, at the great-grandparent level.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
novel in a month). It was his idea, he bought the book for himself and
begged me to do it with him (I was going to wait until Jan. to do it
myself).
So I said sure.
He is struggling to finish and I said it was fine if he didn't finish
or keep the word count etc. since this was for fun and he had enjoyed
it to that point.
But it was then that he started talking about the things he has wanted
to finish but doesn't when they get hard or boring...
Examples: websites he started building and stopped, languages he
studies for awhile and then gets tired and stops, practicing pieces on
the piano until they are mastered and can be played at will (he plays
often and I think really well, but he thinks he is not good enough and
wants more facility but gets tired of working on the same thing over
and over again), playing lacrosse, unicycling, rock climbing, computer
games, X box levels, Magic...
He hits a threshhold where he finds it too demanding of repetitious
hard work (the uninspired kind) and then doesn't finish... even the
stuff he really loves.
We had a long heart to heart where I reframed things for him - showing
him that he is learning all the time things that he values, that
mastery doesn't mean perfection, that sometimes we cycle around things
and do them a bit and then come back on our own time table, that he
doesn't have to "set goals" but can enjoy the processes... that kind
of thing.
But he's struggled with not feeling like he fits in or finishes things
for a long time. It might be a hold over from years ago when we
homeschooled more traditionally, but honestly, things have changed so
much for him in the last few years that that doesn't make sense to me
now.
For instance, he doesn't feel badly at all about not finishing
chemistry or quitting a math class or not going to college and I don't
either. It's these things he enjoys... and then feels like he can't
complete. He has this strong inner critic and he tells me the way he
deals with it is to just quit. But later then he's bummed that he has
let it slide and feels too distant from the first impulse to go back
and finish. So he'll start a related project and the whole cycle
repeats itself.
three years. He spends his time on the computer and X Box. And I've
been totally fine with it. Really.
I'd expect to hear about the ways HE has
stand to put his poetry book in.
He got frustrated with the look of his writing and asked if I could
help him with the lettering. He really doesn't have a handle yet on
the formation of the letters when he writes them.
So it is giving me pause that he's coming to you for
So if you have a kid who asks you for help, what do you do? Just put
it back on him and see what happens?
He's always been the most sensitive to anyone controlling his time or
behavior.
So maybe that's why I'm here asking. I don't typically structure his
life at all. We read aloud because he loves it, we read poetry
frequently (he loves teatimes where we read poetry), we bird watch, he
plays his games. He made a notebook last year with an island chain
that he created and would ask me to help him to work on it since it
involved writing. I did.
Now he's asking for help with handwriting so I want to be a help, not
an unwitting hindrance.
and beautifully? I thought my job is to help provide resources and ideas.
last two years, I ought to keep going.
Okay that is really new to me. My daughter is nearly nine, not reading
fluently at all. When she asks for help, I've helped her. She's
struggled all along so when it's hard I suggest letting it go and
waiting until she feels ready to try again. I always assure her that
she'll read. But it never occurred to me to do nothing at all.
improve it mostly because it was touching to me that he came up with
that idea himself. I haven't had a kid have that impulse before
because I had always scheduled handwriting before I fully unschooled.
Too much "goal-setting' for young kids who are
see this.
own yesterday with no prompting from anyone and then put it away
without even showing it to me. That spoke volumes to me. I found the
notebook on the couch and noticed he had written an entire poem (which
is hard for him).
would be cool to have beauitful handwriting" (those are his exact words).
you've now answered it) is if I needed to remind him of the goal he
set for himself when it got hard. I think what you are saying is to
let it be totally his goal, whether he goes after it or not. I don't
need to "hold" his goal for him.
about my older son (18) that would be great.
I told him recently that I didn't think he should be relying on me to
help him reach his goals - that he will have to work out what it is in
him that helps him get there. I'm wondering if from reading your post
here if he has internalized me as his goal-keeping partner that he
doesn't yet know what it is to finish what he cares about without
depending on someone else to push him, remind him, etc.
Maybe?
Julie
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> >Actually no. My oldest is working on that NaNoWriMo goal (writing a
> > I have another kid who asks for help in reaching his goals then quits
> > then hates himself for quitting and then wishes I'd have made him
> > finish... bad cycle.
>
> Goals like improved handwriting?
novel in a month). It was his idea, he bought the book for himself and
begged me to do it with him (I was going to wait until Jan. to do it
myself).
So I said sure.
He is struggling to finish and I said it was fine if he didn't finish
or keep the word count etc. since this was for fun and he had enjoyed
it to that point.
But it was then that he started talking about the things he has wanted
to finish but doesn't when they get hard or boring...
Examples: websites he started building and stopped, languages he
studies for awhile and then gets tired and stops, practicing pieces on
the piano until they are mastered and can be played at will (he plays
often and I think really well, but he thinks he is not good enough and
wants more facility but gets tired of working on the same thing over
and over again), playing lacrosse, unicycling, rock climbing, computer
games, X box levels, Magic...
He hits a threshhold where he finds it too demanding of repetitious
hard work (the uninspired kind) and then doesn't finish... even the
stuff he really loves.
We had a long heart to heart where I reframed things for him - showing
him that he is learning all the time things that he values, that
mastery doesn't mean perfection, that sometimes we cycle around things
and do them a bit and then come back on our own time table, that he
doesn't have to "set goals" but can enjoy the processes... that kind
of thing.
But he's struggled with not feeling like he fits in or finishes things
for a long time. It might be a hold over from years ago when we
homeschooled more traditionally, but honestly, things have changed so
much for him in the last few years that that doesn't make sense to me
now.
For instance, he doesn't feel badly at all about not finishing
chemistry or quitting a math class or not going to college and I don't
either. It's these things he enjoys... and then feels like he can't
complete. He has this strong inner critic and he tells me the way he
deals with it is to just quit. But later then he's bummed that he has
let it slide and feels too distant from the first impulse to go back
and finish. So he'll start a related project and the whole cycle
repeats itself.
>See above.
> There is something in your description of the kids setting goals that
> is bothering me - making me itch a little.
>
> I'd like to hear what the other goals are like - the kinds of goals
> the other child is "quitting" and then hating himself for quitting.
>This is my other son (who is 11). He's been totally unschooled for
> Those are some STRONG words you used.
>
> I'm torn, in answering, because of this odd itchy feeling your post
> is giving me. I know one thing that's bothering me, a little, though
> - that is the way you described his asking for help to help him
> improve his handwriting.
three years. He spends his time on the computer and X Box. And I've
been totally fine with it. Really.
I'd expect to hear about the ways HE has
> decided to go about doing it - it isn't at all hard for an 11 yo kidHe did. He came and asked me for a pen, a notebook and the cookbook
> to figure out how to improve his own handwriting - to come up with
> ways to do that.
stand to put his poetry book in.
He got frustrated with the look of his writing and asked if I could
help him with the lettering. He really doesn't have a handle yet on
the formation of the letters when he writes them.
So it is giving me pause that he's coming to you for
> help as he is. I mean - he could come and say, "I need you to writeOkay, that makes sense.
> something for me to trace," or "Write the letters for me so I can see
> what good handwriting looks like." Or he could come and say, "I want
> to buy a handwriting workbook." Or there are MANY things he might ask
> you, Julie. But - there is something overly helpless in the way you
> described him asking AND here you are asking us. It is like you're
> going to take charge - come up with a system of learning FOR him.
So if you have a kid who asks you for help, what do you do? Just put
it back on him and see what happens?
>I know this well enough to know not to make it my goal for him. Yes.
> IF that is the way your other son's goals have been approached, then
> ONE reason they've failed is because they were too much yours and not
> enough his own.
He's always been the most sensitive to anyone controlling his time or
behavior.
So maybe that's why I'm here asking. I don't typically structure his
life at all. We read aloud because he loves it, we read poetry
frequently (he loves teatimes where we read poetry), we bird watch, he
plays his games. He made a notebook last year with an island chain
that he created and would ask me to help him to work on it since it
involved writing. I did.
Now he's asking for help with handwriting so I want to be a help, not
an unwitting hindrance.
> The way you know someone is serious about achieving a goal is thatDo kids already know the steps for learning to handwrite comfortably
> THEY come up with the steps to do so and THEY work on the first step
> until they succeed and then THEY move on to the second.
and beautifully? I thought my job is to help provide resources and ideas.
>Hmmm. Okay. So even though this has been how I've handled it for the
> But I have a feeling you're getting involved too quickly. I know
> there is a fine line between being supportive and getting too
> involved - but I just have this underlying feeling that you're doing
> the latter.
>
> So - oddly enough - my suggestion for you is to back off.
>
> You can casually say, "Oh - don't get too worried about it - LOTS of
> really brilliant successful people have trouble with handwriting,"
> And if he insists that he wants some "system" for improving his, you
> can say, "Handwriting usually just gets better with practice and as
> people get older."
last two years, I ought to keep going.
>Wow. Really?
> I feel like you're taking over the MOST important part of this - the
> process of figuring out how to respond, himself, to his OWN feelings,
> urges, desires - how to figure out how to get what he wants.
>
> If one of my daughters had come to me and said, "I want to learn to
> read," I wouldn't immediately start trying to figure out some system
> for helping her learn to read. I'd say, "I know. You will."
Okay that is really new to me. My daughter is nearly nine, not reading
fluently at all. When she asks for help, I've helped her. She's
struggled all along so when it's hard I suggest letting it go and
waiting until she feels ready to try again. I always assure her that
she'll read. But it never occurred to me to do nothing at all.
>Worried... Hmmm. I don't think I'm worried. I was happy he wanted to
> I just have this feeling that you're taking over the goals - at least
> just a bit. Maybe you're worried about his poor penmanship and just a
> little too pleased at the chance that he'll improve it?
improve it mostly because it was touching to me that he came up with
that idea himself. I haven't had a kid have that impulse before
because I had always scheduled handwriting before I fully unschooled.
>After reading my older son's description, would you still say this?
> I'm thinking that what both kids sound like they need to learn is not
> how to achieve their goals, but how to relax and let the learning
> happen naturally.
Too much "goal-setting' for young kids who are
> better off living in the here and now and not feeling ashamed orGot it.
> guilty (and therefore hating themselves) and too much thinking YOU
> have responsibility for their learning. You're just not really away
> from that mindset far enough - that's what is making me itchy.
>I like this.
> The best "help" you could give him would be NOT to step in and
> organize his learning for him - but to just say encouraging things
> like, "You'll learn. It'll happen."
>I think this is very true. Thank you for putting it like this. I can
> Respond to his SPECIFIC requests, of course. But I think you have to
> lay off MORE than some other people, at least for a while, because
> your kids are still asking you to be responsible for their learning.
see this.
> So even offering a whole list of possible ideas of how he can improveYes. Okay.
> his handwriting - and letting him decide which of your ideas he might
> choose to try to reach his goals - I think that is coming across as
> handing the responsibility over to you.
>Lol! Well, we'll see, right? He wrote for fifteen minutes all on his
> Oh - and I'm also going to guess that he really doesn't, in fact,
> want to spend time working to improve his handwriting. He just wants
> it to be better. Those are different.
own yesterday with no prompting from anyone and then put it away
without even showing it to me. That spoke volumes to me. I found the
notebook on the couch and noticed he had written an entire poem (which
is hard for him).
>Actually, he did say he wants to "work on his handwriting because it
> Your son wants to HAVE good handwriting.
> You're interpreting that as if he wants to LEARN to have good
> handwriting.
would be cool to have beauitful handwriting" (those are his exact words).
>Okay.
> I think you're jumping in with ideas of how to improve his
> handwriting - but if he really wanted to LEARN to write better, he'd
> be figuring out how to do that.
>This is precisely what he asked for. I think what I was wondering (and
> If he wanted to LEARN to write better, he'd be WRITING all the time,
> trying to do it better and better. It would be on his OWN initiative,
> he would not need to ask you for help with that unless he needed you
> to get him paper or pens or something concrete like help him find
> writing samples to trace or copy.
you've now answered it) is if I needed to remind him of the goal he
set for himself when it got hard. I think what you are saying is to
let it be totally his goal, whether he goes after it or not. I don't
need to "hold" his goal for him.
>Great. got it. Thanks that was helpful. If you have something to say
> When your son asks for paper and pens to practice his handwriting -
> help him with that. Be really careful that you're not making too big
> a deal out of "goals."
about my older son (18) that would be great.
I told him recently that I didn't think he should be relying on me to
help him reach his goals - that he will have to work out what it is in
him that helps him get there. I'm wondering if from reading your post
here if he has internalized me as his goal-keeping partner that he
doesn't yet know what it is to finish what he cares about without
depending on someone else to push him, remind him, etc.
Maybe?
Julie
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/05 12:56:10 PM, julie@... writes:
I'd do what you did, reframe the situation so that it shows learning and
success, not failure-to-finish.
My husband gets frustrated with not finishing projects, but those he finishes
are great, and those he doesn't give him experience (sometimes with how not
to do it next time) and knowledge for future projects.
-=-
But he's struggled with not feeling like he fits in-=-
Fits in where? How?
-=- It might be a hold over from years ago when we
homeschooled more traditionally, but honestly, things have changed so
much for him in the last few years that that doesn't make sense to me
now.-=-
Cognitive stuff doesn't undo itself.
Even if you feel he deschooled, if his beliefs haven't changed, just his
actions, then reason with him with examples from his own experiences.
-=-Actually no. My oldest is working on that NaNoWriMo goal (writing a
novel in a month). It was his idea, he bought the book for himself and
begged me to do it with him (I was going to wait until Jan. to do it
myself).
So I said sure.-=-
Maybe your mistake was saying "Sure" instead of "Maybe," or "I'm going to
try, but I don't care whether I don't finish," or "Not if you're going to melt
down if you don't make the deadline."
-=-It's these things he enjoys... and then feels like he can't
complete.-=-
Why is enjoyment all cancelled out with lack of completion? I wouldn't
encourage that.
And why can't he "finish" them later?
-=- But later then he's bummed that he has
let it slide and feels too distant from the first impulse to go back
and finish. So he'll start a related project and the whole cycle
repeats itself.-=-
Not it doesn't "repeat itself," or it wouldn't if he could be helped to see
each one as something that was fun in the moment and didn't NEED to be
completed.
-=-So if you have a kid who asks you for help, what do you do? Just put
it back on him and see what happens?-=-
You're asking Pam Sorooshian that? She's been sharing stuff about her
family for maybe ten years. Let's not be sarcastic.
And be careful with that word "just." The recommendation was not that you
"JUST" leave the responsibility with him. You've misinterpreted if you think
Pam said "put it back on him." But Pam has interpreted rightly, then, I
think, because you seem to see it as something he had put on you that you can
either keep (the responsibility) or put it back on him.
Too much putting, not enough enjoyment and learning and playing.
If he wants to play around with writing (penmanship or novels or instant
messages) that's great. Playing doesn't need to be "finished." It is of the
moment.
-=-I know this well enough to know not to make it my goal for him.-=-
Whether it's your goal for him or his goal for himself or his goal for you
to finish his goal, it sounds like confusion of whose is what.
-=- I always assure her that
she'll read. But it never occurred to me to do nothing at all.
-=-
No one recommended doing nothing at all.
There's a rich unschooling world between doing nothing and taking
responsibility for a child's progress.
-=-> I'm thinking that what both kids sound like they need to learn is not
It didn't seem you were writing about or asking about natural learning. You
were writing about goals and deadlines and frustrations with lack of
completion.
-=-I think what you are saying is to
let it be totally his goal, whether he goes after it or not. I don't
need to "hold" his goal for him.-=-
I think that's what she was saying.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Examples: websites he started building and stopped, languages heThat's how I am.
> studies for awhile and then gets tired and stops, practicing pieces on
> the piano until they are mastered and can be played at will (he plays
> often and I think really well, but he thinks he is not good enough and
> wants more facility but gets tired of working on the same thing over
> and over again), playing lacrosse, unicycling, rock climbing, computer
> games, X box levels, Magic...
>
> He hits a threshhold where he finds it too demanding of repetitious
> hard work (the uninspired kind) and then doesn't finish... even the
> stuff he really loves.
>
>
I'd do what you did, reframe the situation so that it shows learning and
success, not failure-to-finish.
My husband gets frustrated with not finishing projects, but those he finishes
are great, and those he doesn't give him experience (sometimes with how not
to do it next time) and knowledge for future projects.
-=-
But he's struggled with not feeling like he fits in-=-
Fits in where? How?
-=- It might be a hold over from years ago when we
homeschooled more traditionally, but honestly, things have changed so
much for him in the last few years that that doesn't make sense to me
now.-=-
Cognitive stuff doesn't undo itself.
Even if you feel he deschooled, if his beliefs haven't changed, just his
actions, then reason with him with examples from his own experiences.
-=-Actually no. My oldest is working on that NaNoWriMo goal (writing a
novel in a month). It was his idea, he bought the book for himself and
begged me to do it with him (I was going to wait until Jan. to do it
myself).
So I said sure.-=-
Maybe your mistake was saying "Sure" instead of "Maybe," or "I'm going to
try, but I don't care whether I don't finish," or "Not if you're going to melt
down if you don't make the deadline."
-=-It's these things he enjoys... and then feels like he can't
complete.-=-
Why is enjoyment all cancelled out with lack of completion? I wouldn't
encourage that.
And why can't he "finish" them later?
-=- But later then he's bummed that he has
let it slide and feels too distant from the first impulse to go back
and finish. So he'll start a related project and the whole cycle
repeats itself.-=-
Not it doesn't "repeat itself," or it wouldn't if he could be helped to see
each one as something that was fun in the moment and didn't NEED to be
completed.
-=-So if you have a kid who asks you for help, what do you do? Just put
it back on him and see what happens?-=-
You're asking Pam Sorooshian that? She's been sharing stuff about her
family for maybe ten years. Let's not be sarcastic.
And be careful with that word "just." The recommendation was not that you
"JUST" leave the responsibility with him. You've misinterpreted if you think
Pam said "put it back on him." But Pam has interpreted rightly, then, I
think, because you seem to see it as something he had put on you that you can
either keep (the responsibility) or put it back on him.
Too much putting, not enough enjoyment and learning and playing.
If he wants to play around with writing (penmanship or novels or instant
messages) that's great. Playing doesn't need to be "finished." It is of the
moment.
-=-I know this well enough to know not to make it my goal for him.-=-
Whether it's your goal for him or his goal for himself or his goal for you
to finish his goal, it sounds like confusion of whose is what.
-=- I always assure her that
she'll read. But it never occurred to me to do nothing at all.
-=-
No one recommended doing nothing at all.
There's a rich unschooling world between doing nothing and taking
responsibility for a child's progress.
-=-> I'm thinking that what both kids sound like they need to learn is not
> how to achieve their goals, but how to relax and let the learning-=-After reading my older son's description, would you still say this?-=-
> happen naturally.
It didn't seem you were writing about or asking about natural learning. You
were writing about goals and deadlines and frustrations with lack of
completion.
-=-I think what you are saying is to
let it be totally his goal, whether he goes after it or not. I don't
need to "hold" his goal for him.-=-
I think that's what she was saying.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
>Pam, I'm responding to myself here but hope you'll chime in (or anyone).
> I told him recently that I didn't think he should be relying on me to
> help him reach his goals - that he will have to work out what it is in
> him that helps him get there. I'm wondering if from reading your post
> here if he has internalized me as his goal-keeping partner that he
> doesn't yet know what it is to finish what he cares about without
> depending on someone else to push him, remind him, etc.
>
> Maybe?
I was reflecting back on some of my conversations with my oldest. I
know I have put pressure on him in the past to complete things. Not
this year. But I'm wondering how much he evaluates his relationship to
the things he loves through an old tape of my talking to him about
finishing things he *didn't* enjoy. So in other words, perhaps he's
applied my way of thinking about stuff that we expected of him in
school or chores before unschooling and has applied that to his
pleasures as well.
Also, his Meyer's Briggs temperament says that these types typically
are brilliant in their area of talent but also are hyper critical of
self and as a result have trouble sustaining their efforts when the
impulse wanes.
So some of this may be natural to him, some comes from me and how I've
influenced how he sees himself.
I'm trying to change that!! So I'm interested in ideas.
Julie
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/2005 8:30:37 AM Central Standard Time,
julie@... writes:
But since it matters to him and since he talks about how he wishes
he'd stick with his goals, I wondered if there is more I can do to
support him without it becoming school-y or coercive...
~~~
I have an 11 yo son, too. He doesn't set too many long range goals (except
to play in the Majors--really looong range). So I can't help you with that.
I got to thinking this might not be about goal setting, but more about
readiness to write.
My son also has very illegible handwriting and he can't write in small
spaces (like registration cards). He holds any writing instrument with his thumb
and all 4 fingers (not in his fist, but between his thumb and pinkie and the
other three fingers stacked up the pencil). That method is really bad for
making fine details. He's been doing it that way since he started drawing at 2
or 3, and resisted my attempts to show him an easier way, so I've let it go
for years.
He is always amazed in a "wish I could do that" way at how fast I write
when he sees me write something. Early on I attributed his inability to not
being literate, and then not knowing a lot of spelling (having to think about
it too much). Then when he could read and spell, it would occur to me that
the physical part was in the way, too. Then there's the desire aspect. He
just wasn't ready, in some way or another. So, I usually just said something
like, "Oh, you'll be able to write as fast as you need to, someday". Sometimes
we'd have a conversation about why he thought he couldn't write that fast,
and I'd reassure him that some day his muscles in his hand and his ability to
get his words down to his fingertips would develop eventually. Just like his
pitching arm has gotten faster and his hand able to grip the ball for
different pitches as he got older and bigger (to put it in a perspective he can
understand <g>).
Just the other day, we were talking about it, again. The dental hygenist
found out he was homeschooled and asked him a math question in the context of
the treatment (hours in a day divided by (12) hours it takes bacteria to
colonize = how many times a day you must brush your teeth). At the end of the
exam she gave him a reminder card to fill out write his address on. He handed
it to me and I filled it out, even though it was clear she wanted him to do
it. When he gave it to me, he said, "You know more of this information than I
do."
In the car he brought it up again, how he doesn't feel comfortable writing
too much. This time it was about the way he holds his pencil. He said,
"Maybe I oughta try holding it the way you do. My hand gets sore when I do it the
way I do it." That was his first hint *ever* that he thought there might be
some validity to a different way to do it other than "his" way. When he
first really resisted when he was 2 or 3, I just told him his way was fine for
him, and other people did it differently. He just grabbed on to that "my
way!" and never let go. I never pushed it, although I did occasionally suggest
it might be better this way or that way if I was helping him with something.
I attribute his change of heart to maturity and readiness. Some people can
pick something up right away...it's natural for them. With some, it's more
of a developmental thing. I'm happy I never made Will do handwriting lessons.
I'm happy that he had the guts and determination to say "his way" was best
for him, because that's served him well (in other areas, too). Some day
he'll have a burning desire or pressing need to have legible handwriting (or
not--then he'll learn other coping skills), and at that point he can learn to do
it in a short time. All the components for it will be in place.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
But since it matters to him and since he talks about how he wishes
he'd stick with his goals, I wondered if there is more I can do to
support him without it becoming school-y or coercive...
~~~
I have an 11 yo son, too. He doesn't set too many long range goals (except
to play in the Majors--really looong range). So I can't help you with that.
I got to thinking this might not be about goal setting, but more about
readiness to write.
My son also has very illegible handwriting and he can't write in small
spaces (like registration cards). He holds any writing instrument with his thumb
and all 4 fingers (not in his fist, but between his thumb and pinkie and the
other three fingers stacked up the pencil). That method is really bad for
making fine details. He's been doing it that way since he started drawing at 2
or 3, and resisted my attempts to show him an easier way, so I've let it go
for years.
He is always amazed in a "wish I could do that" way at how fast I write
when he sees me write something. Early on I attributed his inability to not
being literate, and then not knowing a lot of spelling (having to think about
it too much). Then when he could read and spell, it would occur to me that
the physical part was in the way, too. Then there's the desire aspect. He
just wasn't ready, in some way or another. So, I usually just said something
like, "Oh, you'll be able to write as fast as you need to, someday". Sometimes
we'd have a conversation about why he thought he couldn't write that fast,
and I'd reassure him that some day his muscles in his hand and his ability to
get his words down to his fingertips would develop eventually. Just like his
pitching arm has gotten faster and his hand able to grip the ball for
different pitches as he got older and bigger (to put it in a perspective he can
understand <g>).
Just the other day, we were talking about it, again. The dental hygenist
found out he was homeschooled and asked him a math question in the context of
the treatment (hours in a day divided by (12) hours it takes bacteria to
colonize = how many times a day you must brush your teeth). At the end of the
exam she gave him a reminder card to fill out write his address on. He handed
it to me and I filled it out, even though it was clear she wanted him to do
it. When he gave it to me, he said, "You know more of this information than I
do."
In the car he brought it up again, how he doesn't feel comfortable writing
too much. This time it was about the way he holds his pencil. He said,
"Maybe I oughta try holding it the way you do. My hand gets sore when I do it the
way I do it." That was his first hint *ever* that he thought there might be
some validity to a different way to do it other than "his" way. When he
first really resisted when he was 2 or 3, I just told him his way was fine for
him, and other people did it differently. He just grabbed on to that "my
way!" and never let go. I never pushed it, although I did occasionally suggest
it might be better this way or that way if I was helping him with something.
I attribute his change of heart to maturity and readiness. Some people can
pick something up right away...it's natural for them. With some, it's more
of a developmental thing. I'm happy I never made Will do handwriting lessons.
I'm happy that he had the guts and determination to say "his way" was best
for him, because that's served him well (in other areas, too). Some day
he'll have a burning desire or pressing need to have legible handwriting (or
not--then he'll learn other coping skills), and at that point he can learn to do
it in a short time. All the components for it will be in place.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/2005 1:35:53 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Neither are fountain pens. Except for wedge-cut felt tip pens, I wouldn't
recommend calligraphy except to kids who already have flowing handwriting
and
want to move on to something fancy.
~~~
I think she was just recommending the paper with many widths of lines, and
reminiscing a little.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Neither are fountain pens. Except for wedge-cut felt tip pens, I wouldn't
recommend calligraphy except to kids who already have flowing handwriting
and
want to move on to something fancy.
~~~
I think she was just recommending the paper with many widths of lines, and
reminiscing a little.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/2005 3:00:56 PM Central Standard Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
So I can't help you with that.
I got to thinking this might not be about goal setting, but more about
readiness to write.
~~~
Responding to my own post, after I've read Pam's.
I agree with the wanting to "Be" but not wanting to "Learn" part.
Last night my husband and I went to Willy D's dueling piano bar. We just
happened upon it after dessert, and it was mostly empty and a guy was playing
love songs and it was non-smoking, so we stepped in for a drink. We listened
and talked and pretty soon I realized *this* was the place someone was
telling me about how fun it was. We found out the dueling piano guys were going to
start in about an hour, so we decided to stay.
It was amazing. They were very talented, and there were three of them. Not
only did they play piano, but to keep the evening going, they rotated in
around the pianos to play a drum set and guitar. That's how one guy got a break
while the other two kept the act going. It was very participatory and we
sang all night.
I sat there all night thinking, "I wish I could play like that!" "I wish I
could sing like that."
I am not going to out to buy a piano. I don't want to learn how to do it.
I don't have that kind of talent. I want it, but I don't to learn it.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tuckervill2@... writes:
So I can't help you with that.
I got to thinking this might not be about goal setting, but more about
readiness to write.
~~~
Responding to my own post, after I've read Pam's.
I agree with the wanting to "Be" but not wanting to "Learn" part.
Last night my husband and I went to Willy D's dueling piano bar. We just
happened upon it after dessert, and it was mostly empty and a guy was playing
love songs and it was non-smoking, so we stepped in for a drink. We listened
and talked and pretty soon I realized *this* was the place someone was
telling me about how fun it was. We found out the dueling piano guys were going to
start in about an hour, so we decided to stay.
It was amazing. They were very talented, and there were three of them. Not
only did they play piano, but to keep the evening going, they rotated in
around the pianos to play a drum set and guitar. That's how one guy got a break
while the other two kept the act going. It was very participatory and we
sang all night.
I sat there all night thinking, "I wish I could play like that!" "I wish I
could sing like that."
I am not going to out to buy a piano. I don't want to learn how to do it.
I don't have that kind of talent. I want it, but I don't to learn it.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dana Matt
>Probably depends on the kid. My daughter wasn't
> Neither are fountain pens. Except for wedge-cut
> felt tip pens, I wouldn't
> recommend calligraphy except to kids who already
> have flowing handwriting
> and
> want to move on to something fancy.
>
>
interested in penmenship until she got interested in
caligraphy, and bought a bunch of fancy pens and books
and a kit...and spent a few months really enjoying
making beautiful letters...I think because it was all
ABOUT being beautiful that it was ok that it was more
work, and also because it was broken down into small
steps (in the caliigraphy books) it made it easier for
her somehow. She had the...I guess fountain pens? You
dipped them in ink and let them drip in the bottle
before writing a few letters, and then dipping
again...
Dana
Guadalupe's Coffee Roaster
100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
http://www.guadalupescoffee.com
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], Dana Matt
<hoffmanwilson@y...> wrote:
complexity can cause deeper learning (and often more efficient
learning) than breaking things down into their incremental smaller
steps. Right-brains prefer conplexity because they become fascinated
on a level that sustains interest and absorption which then causes
learning.
This happened with my 11 year old this summer with reading.
He read at age 7 without ever being taught in any formal program at
all. But he had no interest in reading chapter books. Liked being read
to. Over the next two years, he got interested in two chapter books
and read them on his own. Then nothing.
Just this summer while in Italy, he picked up _Ender's Game_ and read
the whole thing because the older kids were reading it and it sounded
interesting. I asked how he was enjoying it. He said that it was tough
in parts (hard words) but that he just skipped them because the book
was "the best story ever." The complexity combined with a great
sophisticated story made him far more interested in reading than "age
appropriate and reading level geared" material ever would have.
It's been a blast to watch him since he is my first genuinely
unschooled kid coming down the pike.
Julie
<hoffmanwilson@y...> wrote:
>This cracks me up. There's a principle in brain research that says
> >
> > Neither are fountain pens. Except for wedge-cut
> > felt tip pens, I wouldn't
> > recommend calligraphy except to kids who already
> > have flowing handwriting
> > and
> > want to move on to something fancy.
> >
> >
> Probably depends on the kid. My daughter wasn't
> interested in penmenship until she got interested in
> caligraphy, and bought a bunch of fancy pens and books
> and a kit...and spent a few months really enjoying
> making beautiful letters...I think because it was all
> ABOUT being beautiful that it was ok that it was more
> work, and also because it was broken down into small
> steps (in the caliigraphy books) it made it easier for
> her somehow. She had the...I guess fountain pens? You
> dipped them in ink and let them drip in the bottle
> before writing a few letters, and then dipping
> again...
complexity can cause deeper learning (and often more efficient
learning) than breaking things down into their incremental smaller
steps. Right-brains prefer conplexity because they become fascinated
on a level that sustains interest and absorption which then causes
learning.
This happened with my 11 year old this summer with reading.
He read at age 7 without ever being taught in any formal program at
all. But he had no interest in reading chapter books. Liked being read
to. Over the next two years, he got interested in two chapter books
and read them on his own. Then nothing.
Just this summer while in Italy, he picked up _Ender's Game_ and read
the whole thing because the older kids were reading it and it sounded
interesting. I asked how he was enjoying it. He said that it was tough
in parts (hard words) but that he just skipped them because the book
was "the best story ever." The complexity combined with a great
sophisticated story made him far more interested in reading than "age
appropriate and reading level geared" material ever would have.
It's been a blast to watch him since he is my first genuinely
unschooled kid coming down the pike.
Julie
Cally Brown
> This is precisely what he asked for. I think what I was wondering (andMy 4th son (15yr) likes to do things in an orderly way (I think he's a
> you've now answered it) is if I needed to remind him of the goal he
> set for himself when it got hard. I think what you are saying is to
> let it be totally his goal, whether he goes after it or not. I don't
> need to "hold" his goal for him.
mutant <g> that's not the way the rest of the family is!). He likes me
to remind him to do things as he tries to establish a habit. At the
moment he wants to practise his signature (after feeling embarassed when
getting his driver's license), and he wants to develop the habit of
writing at the same time each day (he is writing a novel). He also has
something else he does that he uses the alarm on his watch for, so it's
a bit complicated to keep resetting his alarm. So he has asked me to
wake him / remind him to get up in the morning, to remind him to do the
above. But I only remind once, and don't say anything if he choses not
to do things that day. I wouldn't 'remind him of the goal he set' - that
sounds pretty heavy - I just say, 'do you want to do your writing now?'
and leave him to do whatever he chooses. Perhaps I should get him a
cellphone with an organiser - that way it's purely between him and himself.
Cally
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/05 2:29:27 PM, hoffmanwilson@... writes:
Fountain pens have a rubber reservoir (or probably some fancy vinyl these
days) that you fill by suction.
Cartridge pens are like fountain pens but they have plastic reservoirs.
Dip pens' reservoirs only hold a very little bit either between two pieces of
metal (the tension of the ink keeps a big drop in there, basically), or in a
set of plastic fins like little blinds.
When I was in high school there were dip pens sold at T,G & Y (a department
store) that were less than $1 apiece and the card they were on said "Writes 300
words." They really did do a whole page, and I used one in high school and
loved it (went through several) and wish I could find some now!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> She had the...I guess fountain pens? YouDip pens.
> dipped them in ink and let them drip in the bottle
> before writing a few letters, and then dipping
> again...
>
Fountain pens have a rubber reservoir (or probably some fancy vinyl these
days) that you fill by suction.
Cartridge pens are like fountain pens but they have plastic reservoirs.
Dip pens' reservoirs only hold a very little bit either between two pieces of
metal (the tension of the ink keeps a big drop in there, basically), or in a
set of plastic fins like little blinds.
When I was in high school there were dip pens sold at T,G & Y (a department
store) that were less than $1 apiece and the card they were on said "Writes 300
words." They really did do a whole page, and I used one in high school and
loved it (went through several) and wish I could find some now!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mercedes
Pam wrote:
learning happen naturally. >>>>>
Julie wrote:
As one who has followed a similar path to your family: school,
homeschool, unschool, whole-life unschool, I would say yes.
Definitely.
Depending on the kid, I think it can take YEARS to overcome the
negative effects of pressure from school/mom.
hard. I think what you are saying is to let it be totally his goal,
whether he goes after it or not. I don't need to "hold" his goal for
him. >>>>>>>>
You really can't "hold" his goal anyway, can you? If you do, it's
not his.
I still have to remind myself of this often with dd14.
what it is in him that helps him get there. I'm wondering if from
reading your post here if he has internalized me as his goal-keeping
partner that he doesn't yet know what it is to finish what he cares
about without depending on someone else to push him, remind him, etc.
be prolonging it. The pushing/reminding has to stop before he can
begin to heal. And just like deschooling, one little push/reminder
and the clock starts over <g>
I'm trying to change that!! So I'm interested in ideas. >>>>>>>
In your case and since your son IS an adult follow the
"how would I act and what would I say if this were my best
friend" advice. What would you say/do to help a friend?
Mercedes
with ds23 and ds20 each of whom has a different kind of
"damage" from school/homeschool. . . . .
>>>>>I'm thinking that what both kids sound like they need to learnis not how to achieve their goals, but how to relax and let the
learning happen naturally. >>>>>
Julie wrote:
>>>>>>After reading my older son's description, would you still saythis? >>>>>>
As one who has followed a similar path to your family: school,
homeschool, unschool, whole-life unschool, I would say yes.
Definitely.
Depending on the kid, I think it can take YEARS to overcome the
negative effects of pressure from school/mom.
>>>>>I think what I was wondering (and you've now answered it) is ifI needed to remind him of the goal he set for himself when it got
hard. I think what you are saying is to let it be totally his goal,
whether he goes after it or not. I don't need to "hold" his goal for
him. >>>>>>>>
You really can't "hold" his goal anyway, can you? If you do, it's
not his.
I still have to remind myself of this often with dd14.
>>>>>>I told him recently that I didn't think he should be relyingon me to help him reach his goals - that he will have to work out
what it is in him that helps him get there. I'm wondering if from
reading your post here if he has internalized me as his goal-keeping
partner that he doesn't yet know what it is to finish what he cares
about without depending on someone else to push him, remind him, etc.
>>>>>>I think he's still got it left-over from school too and you may
be prolonging it. The pushing/reminding has to stop before he can
begin to heal. And just like deschooling, one little push/reminder
and the clock starts over <g>
>>>>>>So some of this may be natural to him, some comes from me andhow I've influenced how he sees himself.
I'm trying to change that!! So I'm interested in ideas. >>>>>>>
In your case and since your son IS an adult follow the
"how would I act and what would I say if this were my best
friend" advice. What would you say/do to help a friend?
Mercedes
with ds23 and ds20 each of whom has a different kind of
"damage" from school/homeschool. . . . .
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/14/05 4:56:44 PM, mhf1978@... writes:
them when they really want help with something of a real-life fashion. I
help Kirby make sure his clothes are clean. Usually it's by doing them, but
sometimes he does them. I am the one who makes sure it gets done. But I do
that for my husband too, because he goes to work and doesn't like to do laundry
much (or I don't like for him to do laundry his way). I LIKE that Kirby has
a job. He's had a job almost all the time since he turned 14. It was "part
of his education," and I think it's a small thing I can contribute, to make
sure he has what he needs to wear.
When Marty started working it didn't occur to him that working with leather
and dyes could stain clothes permanently, and he LIKES his clothes, so I took
him to get some "work pants"--inexpensive khakis he wouldn't have to worry
about, and I reminded him a couple of times not to wear one shirt or another, and
then he hasn't needed a reminder. When he puts on his work pants, he puts on
a shirt he's willing to stain.
I do that for my husband. I do it for Holly. She was at an overnighter
last night and I helped her checklist what she might need. When she went
camping in July I did the same thing, and helped her pack. My husband does that
for me, when I'm going somewhere with or without him, and he'll pack for me if
I ask him to. He's good at it.
Maybe that's not the same thing as "an educational goal." It is an aspect
in which my kids can count on me, if not "depend on me." It's not my
responsibility, but I'm willing to help.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I think he's still got it left-over from school too and you maySpeaking as someone whose children never went to school, I'm willing to help
> be prolonging it. The pushing/reminding has to stop before he can
> begin to heal. And just like deschooling, one little push/reminder
> and the clock starts over <g>
>
them when they really want help with something of a real-life fashion. I
help Kirby make sure his clothes are clean. Usually it's by doing them, but
sometimes he does them. I am the one who makes sure it gets done. But I do
that for my husband too, because he goes to work and doesn't like to do laundry
much (or I don't like for him to do laundry his way). I LIKE that Kirby has
a job. He's had a job almost all the time since he turned 14. It was "part
of his education," and I think it's a small thing I can contribute, to make
sure he has what he needs to wear.
When Marty started working it didn't occur to him that working with leather
and dyes could stain clothes permanently, and he LIKES his clothes, so I took
him to get some "work pants"--inexpensive khakis he wouldn't have to worry
about, and I reminded him a couple of times not to wear one shirt or another, and
then he hasn't needed a reminder. When he puts on his work pants, he puts on
a shirt he's willing to stain.
I do that for my husband. I do it for Holly. She was at an overnighter
last night and I helped her checklist what she might need. When she went
camping in July I did the same thing, and helped her pack. My husband does that
for me, when I'm going somewhere with or without him, and he'll pack for me if
I ask him to. He's good at it.
Maybe that's not the same thing as "an educational goal." It is an aspect
in which my kids can count on me, if not "depend on me." It's not my
responsibility, but I'm willing to help.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
**sometimes we cycle around things
and do them a bit and then come back on our own time table...**
Hi, Julie --
That's an important point, I think.
** So if you have a kid who asks you for help, what do you do? Just put
it back on him and see what happens?**
Maybe answer with "what kind of help would you like?"
Yes, he might answer "I don't know" and then I'm not sure what to say.
Betsy
and do them a bit and then come back on our own time table...**
Hi, Julie --
That's an important point, I think.
** So if you have a kid who asks you for help, what do you do? Just put
it back on him and see what happens?**
Maybe answer with "what kind of help would you like?"
Yes, he might answer "I don't know" and then I'm not sure what to say.
Betsy
The Robbins' Nest
My 9 y/o daughter wanted to practice her handwriting recently and we found this website that will show you how to form the letters. She can sit out by the computer and work on it when she feels like it and at her own pace. She thought it was pretty cool.
http://www.handwritingforkids.com/handwrite/cursive/animation/lowercase.htm
Kim
http://www.handwritingforkids.com/handwrite/cursive/animation/lowercase.htm
Kim
----- Original Message -----
From: Julie Bogart
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 8:30 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] How do you support a child's goal?
I have two kids who've asked me to help them complete goals they have
for themselves. One of them is 11 and he is a leftie. He struggles
with handwriting. He keyboards very well and he likes to copy poetry.
So he's done that off and on according to his own interests for the
last several years.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]