Now I am confused...
Julie Bogart
This dialog with Sheila is truly mystifying to me.
She shared a conflict her kids were having and advice was given. She
clarified her situation in response to questions and hoped for more
advice. That takes courage.
At one point, the question (perhaps by someone else, I don't have time
to reread the whole thread) of what to do with siblings who don't get
along grew out of this discussion.
I shared a practice that has worked well for our family: sitting
together on the couch to discuss what went wrong and how to resolve it
peacefully, with all parties feeling heard and a part of determining
how to negotiate for what they want in the future without resorting to
mean-spirited communication.
I got told that it would feel like torture and coercion to the poster.
Yet a child can be told to breathe, to tell others to breathe when
feeling upset and that is seen as non-coercive.
In our house, we have a principle that unkind speech will be addressed
when it happens--in order to protect kids from feeling tortured by
mean speech. This princple has worked extremely well for us. Our kids
just don't fight hardly at all.
It's not just a principle we apply to them either. They have held us
to the same standards. We've stopped what we're doing and have sat
down to really hear the perspective of the offended one as well
(parent-child, wife-husband). It takes humility and it also makes it
less rewarding to vent, let me tell you. You think twice if you know
you are accountable for mean speech.
Punishment and coercion would be saying "You apologize right now. You
sit and listen to me rant at you for what you did to me" That's not
what happens. These are calm conversations with lots of support for
both parties. These discussions take time and gentleness. We offer both.
If a child is too angry to sit down, he stands. If there is a need for
a few moments to regroup emotionally, of course we give it. But we
don't just leave it alone or until tomorrow. The goal is to give the
parties involved the chance to work through the miscommunication when
it occurs until relational peace is achieved. And it works.
We've had this practice for as long as I can remember. Our kids get
along great and we have clean slates between kids and parents too.
Just as a parent would stop a kid from throwing a punch, we stop our
kids from being mean to each other.
--
Later in this thread, someone mentioned that her child will not accept
any of the offered support when cranky and whiny and one of the
suggestions is to tell the child "Go to bed and I'll hold you in the
morning when you aren't so cranky."
How is that different than intervening in unkind speech and saying
"Come to the couch?"
If the cranky child refused to go to bed or continued to whine and
cry, what then?
Certainly sleep is a good idea when cranky. But I've noticed it is
usually the last thing my kids yield to when tired and upset. Fluffing
pillows means nothing to them.
So a suggestion to "Go to bed until you are less cranky" would sound
coercive in their ears, like punishment. For us, once the child is
cranky, it's too late to suggest sleep. At that point, we watch TV
with them or go for a drive.
Yet somehow this suggestion of "go to bed" is seen not as coercive,
categorically... I want to know why. Somehow saying that sleep is good
for the child is enough. Well, lots of parents would say math books
are good for children too. That hasn't been reason enough on this list
for expecting a child to do something.
Now Sheila is being told that she is defending her kids obnoxious
behavior when she continues to share the express nature of the
conflict they had in the store (sticking out tongue and kicking). The
suggestion offered of what to say to the child: "Stop it or you're not
coming with me next time."
How do these last two suggestions not sound like all the parents that
are routinely criticized on this list?
Sending a child to bed or threatening not to bring the child with you
next time sound like coercive tactics.
Yet after reading this list for all this time, I'm thinking that it is
the *way* these ideas are communicated that may be different - that
somehow you are saying to the child, "I like bringing you to the store
with me, but since it seems that you get bored and cranky, I think
I'll go to the store alone next time and Daddy can watch you."
Maybe? I hope so because right now I'm totally lost.
I am also a bit mystified at the lack of gentleness in helping a mom
who is sincerely communicating her frustrations in such a vulnerable
way. I wouldn't think we'd talk to our kids this way when they were
hurting and frustrated.
It appears we are in a semantic whirlpool where it seems that what
defines coercion is the random impression a post creates on a poster.
Julie
She shared a conflict her kids were having and advice was given. She
clarified her situation in response to questions and hoped for more
advice. That takes courage.
At one point, the question (perhaps by someone else, I don't have time
to reread the whole thread) of what to do with siblings who don't get
along grew out of this discussion.
I shared a practice that has worked well for our family: sitting
together on the couch to discuss what went wrong and how to resolve it
peacefully, with all parties feeling heard and a part of determining
how to negotiate for what they want in the future without resorting to
mean-spirited communication.
I got told that it would feel like torture and coercion to the poster.
Yet a child can be told to breathe, to tell others to breathe when
feeling upset and that is seen as non-coercive.
In our house, we have a principle that unkind speech will be addressed
when it happens--in order to protect kids from feeling tortured by
mean speech. This princple has worked extremely well for us. Our kids
just don't fight hardly at all.
It's not just a principle we apply to them either. They have held us
to the same standards. We've stopped what we're doing and have sat
down to really hear the perspective of the offended one as well
(parent-child, wife-husband). It takes humility and it also makes it
less rewarding to vent, let me tell you. You think twice if you know
you are accountable for mean speech.
Punishment and coercion would be saying "You apologize right now. You
sit and listen to me rant at you for what you did to me" That's not
what happens. These are calm conversations with lots of support for
both parties. These discussions take time and gentleness. We offer both.
If a child is too angry to sit down, he stands. If there is a need for
a few moments to regroup emotionally, of course we give it. But we
don't just leave it alone or until tomorrow. The goal is to give the
parties involved the chance to work through the miscommunication when
it occurs until relational peace is achieved. And it works.
We've had this practice for as long as I can remember. Our kids get
along great and we have clean slates between kids and parents too.
Just as a parent would stop a kid from throwing a punch, we stop our
kids from being mean to each other.
--
Later in this thread, someone mentioned that her child will not accept
any of the offered support when cranky and whiny and one of the
suggestions is to tell the child "Go to bed and I'll hold you in the
morning when you aren't so cranky."
How is that different than intervening in unkind speech and saying
"Come to the couch?"
If the cranky child refused to go to bed or continued to whine and
cry, what then?
Certainly sleep is a good idea when cranky. But I've noticed it is
usually the last thing my kids yield to when tired and upset. Fluffing
pillows means nothing to them.
So a suggestion to "Go to bed until you are less cranky" would sound
coercive in their ears, like punishment. For us, once the child is
cranky, it's too late to suggest sleep. At that point, we watch TV
with them or go for a drive.
Yet somehow this suggestion of "go to bed" is seen not as coercive,
categorically... I want to know why. Somehow saying that sleep is good
for the child is enough. Well, lots of parents would say math books
are good for children too. That hasn't been reason enough on this list
for expecting a child to do something.
Now Sheila is being told that she is defending her kids obnoxious
behavior when she continues to share the express nature of the
conflict they had in the store (sticking out tongue and kicking). The
suggestion offered of what to say to the child: "Stop it or you're not
coming with me next time."
How do these last two suggestions not sound like all the parents that
are routinely criticized on this list?
Sending a child to bed or threatening not to bring the child with you
next time sound like coercive tactics.
Yet after reading this list for all this time, I'm thinking that it is
the *way* these ideas are communicated that may be different - that
somehow you are saying to the child, "I like bringing you to the store
with me, but since it seems that you get bored and cranky, I think
I'll go to the store alone next time and Daddy can watch you."
Maybe? I hope so because right now I'm totally lost.
I am also a bit mystified at the lack of gentleness in helping a mom
who is sincerely communicating her frustrations in such a vulnerable
way. I wouldn't think we'd talk to our kids this way when they were
hurting and frustrated.
It appears we are in a semantic whirlpool where it seems that what
defines coercion is the random impression a post creates on a poster.
Julie
Pam Sorooshian
Hey Julie - different kids/people are different.
It would have been VERY satisfying to my oldest daughter and pure
torture to my middle daughter. VERY VERY torturous. I'm so serious
about this.
Ascribe it to different responses from different points of view.
-pam
It would have been VERY satisfying to my oldest daughter and pure
torture to my middle daughter. VERY VERY torturous. I'm so serious
about this.
Ascribe it to different responses from different points of view.
-pam
On Jul 29, 2005, at 12:42 PM, Julie Bogart wrote:
> I shared a practice that has worked well for our family: sitting
> together on the couch to discuss what went wrong and how to resolve it
> peacefully, with all parties feeling heard and a part of determining
> how to negotiate for what they want in the future without resorting to
> mean-spirited communication.
>
> I got told that it would feel like torture and coercion to the poster.
>
Julie Bogart
I really do understand this and appreciate this point. I guess it
didn't seem clear to me that we were acknowledging a variety of
methods that work variously. If that was the case, then I missed it
somehow.
Glad for the clarification.
Julie
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
didn't seem clear to me that we were acknowledging a variety of
methods that work variously. If that was the case, then I missed it
somehow.
Glad for the clarification.
Julie
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> Hey Julie - different kids/people are different.
>
> It would have been VERY satisfying to my oldest daughter and pure
> torture to my middle daughter. VERY VERY torturous. I'm so serious
> about this.
>
> Ascribe it to different responses from different points of view.
>
> -pam
>
> On Jul 29, 2005, at 12:42 PM, Julie Bogart wrote:
>
> > I shared a practice that has worked well for our family: sitting
> > together on the couch to discuss what went wrong and how to resolve it
> > peacefully, with all parties feeling heard and a part of determining
> > how to negotiate for what they want in the future without resorting to
> > mean-spirited communication.
> >
> > I got told that it would feel like torture and coercion to the poster.
> >
Julie Bogart
I want to apologize for talking about the list on the list. That was a
mistake. I forgot! Pam pointed it out to me and I want to retract
those comments, while standing by the idea content of my posts.
Sorry for the interruption.
Back to your regularly scheduled postings. <g>
Julie
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
mistake. I forgot! Pam pointed it out to me and I want to retract
those comments, while standing by the idea content of my posts.
Sorry for the interruption.
Back to your regularly scheduled postings. <g>
Julie
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> Hey Julie - different kids/people are different.
>
> It would have been VERY satisfying to my oldest daughter and pure
> torture to my middle daughter. VERY VERY torturous. I'm so serious
> about this.
>
> Ascribe it to different responses from different points of view.
>
> -pam
>
> On Jul 29, 2005, at 12:42 PM, Julie Bogart wrote:
>
> > I shared a practice that has worked well for our family: sitting
> > together on the couch to discuss what went wrong and how to resolve it
> > peacefully, with all parties feeling heard and a part of determining
> > how to negotiate for what they want in the future without resorting to
> > mean-spirited communication.
> >
> > I got told that it would feel like torture and coercion to the poster.
> >
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/29/05 5:00:31 PM, julie@... writes:
For my kids it would be similarly bad. If they're angry enough to hit,
talking has already failed.
They're very rarely angry enough to hit, and it's less likely every day they
get older.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I really do understand this and appreciate this point. I guess itI said the first time and clarified that for me it would be horrible torture.
> didn't seem clear to me that we were acknowledging a variety of
> methods that work variously. If that was the case, then I missed it
> somehow.
>
For my kids it would be similarly bad. If they're angry enough to hit,
talking has already failed.
They're very rarely angry enough to hit, and it's less likely every day they
get older.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/29/05 1:43:09 PM, julie@... writes:
trying to help him. He was little when that all started, maybe three or four,
and as time passed, he would remind us or a sibling, if someone was going on
faster and faster, getting frustrated "Breathe!"
It wasn't a command. It wasn't coercing him to breathe. Nobody said
"unless you take deep breaths you're not leaving this place," and nobody said
"Because you acted inappropriately we are going to sit you down and make you
breathe. We went where he was and helped him calm down. It became a tool he
could, has and will use in his life without others there to help him. It became
a trick he has passed on to others.
-=-It takes humility and it also makes it
less rewarding to vent, let me tell you.-=-
Venting at another person isn't venting.
Expressing the frustration to a third party, that's venting.
I think different concepts are being confused.
If Marty is furious with Kirby, and we get Marty elsewhere and let him vent,
he can say what he wanted to say, we can advise him on what he might have done
differently, we can commiserate and sympathize and Kirby isn't hurt by any of
that. And Marty is helped by it. If Marty's communications needed to be
saved to be directed at Kirby, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to discuss
it candidly.
-=-If a child is too angry to sit down, he stands. If there is a need for
a few moments to regroup emotionally, of course we give it. But we
don't just leave it alone or until tomorrow.-=-
We've never just left anything alone or til tomorrow, so the comparison seems
to be to something that no one here recommended.
-=-If the cranky child refused to go to bed or continued to whine and
cry, what then?-=-
Other suggestions would be made.
-= and one of the
suggestions is to tell the child "Go to bed and I'll hold you in the
morning when you aren't so cranky."-=-
It wasn't "go to bed or else," it was "maybe you should go to bed," or "if
you're going to launch yourself on the floor, maybe you're tired, so let's do
this holding and rocking on your bed so if you launch you're in a soft place."
-=-
Certainly sleep is a good idea when cranky. But I've noticed it is
usually the last thing my kids yield to when tired and upset. Fluffing
pillows means nothing to them.-=-
We have a different experience here. Bed has never, ever been a thing that
didn't have to do with being tired and sleepy. Bed is like food--comfort
when one's body needs it.
The other night Kirby was playing World of Warcraft and another teen bragged
that he'd been awake since the morning before (nearly 40 hours at that point)
and Kirby said he loved to sleep, that sleep's great and he doesn't stay up
just to stay up (or some such, I can't remember exactly now). He said the
other kid said (and this to a group, over headphones) "You're going to be the most
boring guy in college." I remember people in college staying up just
because they could, too, not so much because they were involved in music or
conversation and forgot the time, but from watching the clock and being awake for
its own sake. My kids have never had a reason to do that. They know what
sleep is good for and they do it voluntarily.
-=-So a suggestion to "Go to bed until you are less cranky" would sound
coercive in their ears, like punishment. For us, once the child is
cranky, it's too late to suggest sleep. At that point, we watch TV
with them or go for a drive.-=-
To my kids it wouldn't sound coercive. It would be the same as "maybe
you're hungry" as a suggestion for why they were cranky. Another La Leche
League quick-trick was when a child is crying, HALT.: hungry? angry?
lonely? tired? None of those are crimes or punishments.
-=-Yet somehow this suggestion of "go to bed" is seen not as coercive,
categorically... I want to know why.-=-
Because it's a suggestion.
-=- Somehow saying that sleep is good
for the child is enough. Well, lots of parents would say math books
are good for children too.-=-
Kirby had a math book when he took a math class. At that point he chose
one. He chooses to sleep at least once in just about every 24 hour period, too.
And when he's tired is when he needs sleep, but we no longer have to
suggest it to him at all. Sometimes when he was little it was one of several
suggestions.
-=-Now Sheila is being told that she is defending her kids obnoxious
behavior when she continues to share the express nature of the
conflict they had in the store (sticking out tongue and kicking).-=-
When things continue for five or fifteen minutes without change or cessation,
something isn't working. When suggestions people make are rejected
repeatedly, something is being defended.
-=- The suggestion offered of what to say to the child: "Stop it or you're
not
coming with me next time."-=-
If someone (of whatever age) is unprepared to behave well in public, taking
him out in public for a repeat isn't the best next move. If someone is too
loud in a theatre or tells what's going to happen in a movie, I wouldn't take
him with me to a movie the next time (and maybe not ever again), but FIRST I
would ask him to be quieter, and ask him not to discuss what's going to happen.
If he started hitting me, I wouldn't talk to him for five minutes about it.
I would not be there to be hit within SECONDS.
Letting children be abusive to mom or each other isn't unschooling. It's
not good parenting. It's not good socializing. If a family comes over and
the kid is wild and the mom hasn't a clue about how to deal with him about it, I
won't invite them back. (It's happened.) That's because my house should
be safe from such things. If one of my children goes with me to a store and
doesn't behave well and ignored suggestions or requests, then the next time
I'll leave that child elsewhere and go to the store without him, or get someone
else to go to the store.
-=-Sending a child to bed or threatening not to bring the child with you
next time sound like coercive tactics.-=-
In what way?
-=- that
somehow you are saying to the child, "I like bringing you to the store
with me, but since it seems that you get bored and cranky, I think
I'll go to the store alone next time and Daddy can watch you."-=-
That, or "if you want to go to the store you need to be helpful and sweet,
because otherwise it's insufficiently fun for anyone." Or "Dad can go to
the store next time and we'll stay home."
"I like bringing you to the store with me" wouldn't be true of a kid who's
causing a lot of trouble.
When I had three kids small enough to ride in carts, I'd often get two carts,
one for the main groceries and Holly, and that one I'd push (with Kirby's
help, maybe). Marty sat in the deep basket part of a second cart, and I'd pull
that one, and give him groceries he could sort around him. Or if we weren't
getting much, put one in the seat and one in the basket of a single cart.
Nobody had to stay in, and nobody had to walk, and they might change positions
a time or two during the outing. We usually had a blanket (maybe a coat, in
season) so the one sitting in the basket wasn't uncomfortable. A lot of the
whining and fighting we've seen around us in stores was a child who wanted to
ride or be carried, or who wanted to get down and walk, and the mom was
saying no, stay right where you are.
Another thing to do to avert boredom and increase the spark of it being "an
outing" instead of just the same old grocery store is to go to different
grocery stores. Yes, it takes longer, but there are new sights for everyone.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>We breathed with him, we breathed slowly so that we were calm as we were
> Yet a child can be told to breathe, to tell others to breathe when
> feeling upset and that is seen as non-coercive.
>
trying to help him. He was little when that all started, maybe three or four,
and as time passed, he would remind us or a sibling, if someone was going on
faster and faster, getting frustrated "Breathe!"
It wasn't a command. It wasn't coercing him to breathe. Nobody said
"unless you take deep breaths you're not leaving this place," and nobody said
"Because you acted inappropriately we are going to sit you down and make you
breathe. We went where he was and helped him calm down. It became a tool he
could, has and will use in his life without others there to help him. It became
a trick he has passed on to others.
-=-It takes humility and it also makes it
less rewarding to vent, let me tell you.-=-
Venting at another person isn't venting.
Expressing the frustration to a third party, that's venting.
I think different concepts are being confused.
If Marty is furious with Kirby, and we get Marty elsewhere and let him vent,
he can say what he wanted to say, we can advise him on what he might have done
differently, we can commiserate and sympathize and Kirby isn't hurt by any of
that. And Marty is helped by it. If Marty's communications needed to be
saved to be directed at Kirby, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to discuss
it candidly.
-=-If a child is too angry to sit down, he stands. If there is a need for
a few moments to regroup emotionally, of course we give it. But we
don't just leave it alone or until tomorrow.-=-
We've never just left anything alone or til tomorrow, so the comparison seems
to be to something that no one here recommended.
-=-If the cranky child refused to go to bed or continued to whine and
cry, what then?-=-
Other suggestions would be made.
-= and one of the
suggestions is to tell the child "Go to bed and I'll hold you in the
morning when you aren't so cranky."-=-
It wasn't "go to bed or else," it was "maybe you should go to bed," or "if
you're going to launch yourself on the floor, maybe you're tired, so let's do
this holding and rocking on your bed so if you launch you're in a soft place."
-=-
Certainly sleep is a good idea when cranky. But I've noticed it is
usually the last thing my kids yield to when tired and upset. Fluffing
pillows means nothing to them.-=-
We have a different experience here. Bed has never, ever been a thing that
didn't have to do with being tired and sleepy. Bed is like food--comfort
when one's body needs it.
The other night Kirby was playing World of Warcraft and another teen bragged
that he'd been awake since the morning before (nearly 40 hours at that point)
and Kirby said he loved to sleep, that sleep's great and he doesn't stay up
just to stay up (or some such, I can't remember exactly now). He said the
other kid said (and this to a group, over headphones) "You're going to be the most
boring guy in college." I remember people in college staying up just
because they could, too, not so much because they were involved in music or
conversation and forgot the time, but from watching the clock and being awake for
its own sake. My kids have never had a reason to do that. They know what
sleep is good for and they do it voluntarily.
-=-So a suggestion to "Go to bed until you are less cranky" would sound
coercive in their ears, like punishment. For us, once the child is
cranky, it's too late to suggest sleep. At that point, we watch TV
with them or go for a drive.-=-
To my kids it wouldn't sound coercive. It would be the same as "maybe
you're hungry" as a suggestion for why they were cranky. Another La Leche
League quick-trick was when a child is crying, HALT.: hungry? angry?
lonely? tired? None of those are crimes or punishments.
-=-Yet somehow this suggestion of "go to bed" is seen not as coercive,
categorically... I want to know why.-=-
Because it's a suggestion.
-=- Somehow saying that sleep is good
for the child is enough. Well, lots of parents would say math books
are good for children too.-=-
Kirby had a math book when he took a math class. At that point he chose
one. He chooses to sleep at least once in just about every 24 hour period, too.
And when he's tired is when he needs sleep, but we no longer have to
suggest it to him at all. Sometimes when he was little it was one of several
suggestions.
-=-Now Sheila is being told that she is defending her kids obnoxious
behavior when she continues to share the express nature of the
conflict they had in the store (sticking out tongue and kicking).-=-
When things continue for five or fifteen minutes without change or cessation,
something isn't working. When suggestions people make are rejected
repeatedly, something is being defended.
-=- The suggestion offered of what to say to the child: "Stop it or you're
not
coming with me next time."-=-
If someone (of whatever age) is unprepared to behave well in public, taking
him out in public for a repeat isn't the best next move. If someone is too
loud in a theatre or tells what's going to happen in a movie, I wouldn't take
him with me to a movie the next time (and maybe not ever again), but FIRST I
would ask him to be quieter, and ask him not to discuss what's going to happen.
If he started hitting me, I wouldn't talk to him for five minutes about it.
I would not be there to be hit within SECONDS.
Letting children be abusive to mom or each other isn't unschooling. It's
not good parenting. It's not good socializing. If a family comes over and
the kid is wild and the mom hasn't a clue about how to deal with him about it, I
won't invite them back. (It's happened.) That's because my house should
be safe from such things. If one of my children goes with me to a store and
doesn't behave well and ignored suggestions or requests, then the next time
I'll leave that child elsewhere and go to the store without him, or get someone
else to go to the store.
-=-Sending a child to bed or threatening not to bring the child with you
next time sound like coercive tactics.-=-
In what way?
-=- that
somehow you are saying to the child, "I like bringing you to the store
with me, but since it seems that you get bored and cranky, I think
I'll go to the store alone next time and Daddy can watch you."-=-
That, or "if you want to go to the store you need to be helpful and sweet,
because otherwise it's insufficiently fun for anyone." Or "Dad can go to
the store next time and we'll stay home."
"I like bringing you to the store with me" wouldn't be true of a kid who's
causing a lot of trouble.
When I had three kids small enough to ride in carts, I'd often get two carts,
one for the main groceries and Holly, and that one I'd push (with Kirby's
help, maybe). Marty sat in the deep basket part of a second cart, and I'd pull
that one, and give him groceries he could sort around him. Or if we weren't
getting much, put one in the seat and one in the basket of a single cart.
Nobody had to stay in, and nobody had to walk, and they might change positions
a time or two during the outing. We usually had a blanket (maybe a coat, in
season) so the one sitting in the basket wasn't uncomfortable. A lot of the
whining and fighting we've seen around us in stores was a child who wanted to
ride or be carried, or who wanted to get down and walk, and the mom was
saying no, stay right where you are.
Another thing to do to avert boredom and increase the spark of it being "an
outing" instead of just the same old grocery store is to go to different
grocery stores. Yes, it takes longer, but there are new sights for everyone.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
Thanks for this post.
I always took your suggestions to breathe or go to bed as suggestions
that were meant to be tools to use to recover from anger, whininess,
crankiness etc. The wording: "Go to bed" is what tripped me up. So I
appreciate your clarifying and confirming that hunch.
Similarly, that is the spirit in which I offered my suggestions for
how we have helped our kids resolve their conflicts.
I like reading the variety of ideas that work for different families.
Helps to keep us from getting in ruts.
Julie
I always took your suggestions to breathe or go to bed as suggestions
that were meant to be tools to use to recover from anger, whininess,
crankiness etc. The wording: "Go to bed" is what tripped me up. So I
appreciate your clarifying and confirming that hunch.
Similarly, that is the spirit in which I offered my suggestions for
how we have helped our kids resolve their conflicts.
I like reading the variety of ideas that work for different families.
Helps to keep us from getting in ruts.
Julie
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/29/05 1:43:09 PM, julie@b... writes:
>
>
> >
> > Yet a child can be told to breathe, to tell others to breathe when
> > feeling upset and that is seen as non-coercive.
> >
>
> We breathed with him, we breathed slowly so that we were calm as we
were
> trying to help him. He was little when that all started, maybe
three or four,
> and as time passed, he would remind us or a sibling, if someone was
going on
> faster and faster, getting frustrated "Breathe!"
>
> It wasn't a command. It wasn't coercing him to breathe. Nobody said
> "unless you take deep breaths you're not leaving this place," and
nobody said
> "Because you acted inappropriately we are going to sit you down and
make you
> breathe. We went where he was and helped him calm down. It
became a tool he
> could, has and will use in his life without others there to help
him. It became
> a trick he has passed on to others.
>
> -=-It takes humility and it also makes it
> less rewarding to vent, let me tell you.-=-
>
> Venting at another person isn't venting.
> Expressing the frustration to a third party, that's venting.
>
> I think different concepts are being confused.
>
> If Marty is furious with Kirby, and we get Marty elsewhere and let
him vent,
> he can say what he wanted to say, we can advise him on what he might
have done
> differently, we can commiserate and sympathize and Kirby isn't hurt
by any of
> that. And Marty is helped by it. If Marty's communications
needed to be
> saved to be directed at Kirby, he wouldn't have had the opportunity
to discuss
> it candidly.
>
> -=-If a child is too angry to sit down, he stands. If there is a
need for
> a few moments to regroup emotionally, of course we give it. But we
> don't just leave it alone or until tomorrow.-=-
>
> We've never just left anything alone or til tomorrow, so the
comparison seems
> to be to something that no one here recommended.
>
> -=-If the cranky child refused to go to bed or continued to whine and
> cry, what then?-=-
>
> Other suggestions would be made.
>
> -= and one of the
> suggestions is to tell the child "Go to bed and I'll hold you in the
> morning when you aren't so cranky."-=-
>
> It wasn't "go to bed or else," it was "maybe you should go to bed,"
or "if
> you're going to launch yourself on the floor, maybe you're tired, so
let's do
> this holding and rocking on your bed so if you launch you're in a
soft place."
>
> -=-
> Certainly sleep is a good idea when cranky. But I've noticed it is
> usually the last thing my kids yield to when tired and upset. Fluffing
> pillows means nothing to them.-=-
>
> We have a different experience here. Bed has never, ever been a
thing that
> didn't have to do with being tired and sleepy. Bed is like
food--comfort
> when one's body needs it.
>
> The other night Kirby was playing World of Warcraft and another teen
bragged
> that he'd been awake since the morning before (nearly 40 hours at
that point)
> and Kirby said he loved to sleep, that sleep's great and he doesn't
stay up
> just to stay up (or some such, I can't remember exactly now). He
said the
> other kid said (and this to a group, over headphones) "You're going
to be the most
> boring guy in college." I remember people in college staying up
just
> because they could, too, not so much because they were involved in
music or
> conversation and forgot the time, but from watching the clock and
being awake for
> its own sake. My kids have never had a reason to do that. They
know what
> sleep is good for and they do it voluntarily.
>
> -=-So a suggestion to "Go to bed until you are less cranky" would sound
> coercive in their ears, like punishment. For us, once the child is
> cranky, it's too late to suggest sleep. At that point, we watch TV
> with them or go for a drive.-=-
>
> To my kids it wouldn't sound coercive. It would be the same as "maybe
> you're hungry" as a suggestion for why they were cranky.
Another La Leche
> League quick-trick was when a child is crying, HALT.: hungry?
angry?
> lonely? tired? None of those are crimes or punishments.
>
> -=-Yet somehow this suggestion of "go to bed" is seen not as coercive,
> categorically... I want to know why.-=-
>
> Because it's a suggestion.
>
> -=- Somehow saying that sleep is good
> for the child is enough. Well, lots of parents would say math books
> are good for children too.-=-
>
> Kirby had a math book when he took a math class. At that point he
chose
> one. He chooses to sleep at least once in just about every 24 hour
period, too.
> And when he's tired is when he needs sleep, but we no longer have to
> suggest it to him at all. Sometimes when he was little it was one
of several
> suggestions.
>
> -=-Now Sheila is being told that she is defending her kids obnoxious
> behavior when she continues to share the express nature of the
> conflict they had in the store (sticking out tongue and kicking).-=-
>
> When things continue for five or fifteen minutes without change or
cessation,
> something isn't working. When suggestions people make are rejected
> repeatedly, something is being defended.
>
> -=- The suggestion offered of what to say to the child: "Stop it or
you're
> not
> coming with me next time."-=-
>
> If someone (of whatever age) is unprepared to behave well in public,
taking
> him out in public for a repeat isn't the best next move. If
someone is too
> loud in a theatre or tells what's going to happen in a movie, I
wouldn't take
> him with me to a movie the next time (and maybe not ever again), but
FIRST I
> would ask him to be quieter, and ask him not to discuss what's going
to happen.
> If he started hitting me, I wouldn't talk to him for five minutes
about it.
> I would not be there to be hit within SECONDS.
>
> Letting children be abusive to mom or each other isn't unschooling.
It's
> not good parenting. It's not good socializing. If a family comes
over and
> the kid is wild and the mom hasn't a clue about how to deal with him
about it, I
> won't invite them back. (It's happened.) That's because my
house should
> be safe from such things. If one of my children goes with me to a
store and
> doesn't behave well and ignored suggestions or requests, then the
next time
> I'll leave that child elsewhere and go to the store without him, or
get someone
> else to go to the store.
>
> -=-Sending a child to bed or threatening not to bring the child with you
> next time sound like coercive tactics.-=-
>
> In what way?
>
> -=- that
> somehow you are saying to the child, "I like bringing you to the store
> with me, but since it seems that you get bored and cranky, I think
> I'll go to the store alone next time and Daddy can watch you."-=-
>
> That, or "if you want to go to the store you need to be helpful and
sweet,
> because otherwise it's insufficiently fun for anyone." Or "Dad
can go to
> the store next time and we'll stay home."
>
> "I like bringing you to the store with me" wouldn't be true of a kid
who's
> causing a lot of trouble.
>
> When I had three kids small enough to ride in carts, I'd often get
two carts,
> one for the main groceries and Holly, and that one I'd push (with
Kirby's
> help, maybe). Marty sat in the deep basket part of a second cart,
and I'd pull
> that one, and give him groceries he could sort around him. Or if
we weren't
> getting much, put one in the seat and one in the basket of a single
cart.
> Nobody had to stay in, and nobody had to walk, and they might
change positions
> a time or two during the outing. We usually had a blanket (maybe a
coat, in
> season) so the one sitting in the basket wasn't uncomfortable. A
lot of the
> whining and fighting we've seen around us in stores was a child who
wanted to
> ride or be carried, or who wanted to get down and walk, and the mom was
> saying no, stay right where you are.
>
> Another thing to do to avert boredom and increase the spark of it
being "an
> outing" instead of just the same old grocery store is to go to
different
> grocery stores. Yes, it takes longer, but there are new sights for
everyone.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/30/05 7:06:16 AM, julie@... writes:
no," but really in the case of a kid who's complaining about the way her mom
is holding her, and throwing herself out of the mom's lap and blaming the
mom, to say "I'll hold you in the bed" is a form of yes ("Yes, I'll hold you but
let's do it on the bed") or "Maybe you're tired and should go to bed" isn't
making anyone do anything, and to FAIL to make such suggestions seems to be
setting sleep and bed aside as things to be avoided, as yucky stuff.
Children can make better choices when the world isn't divided into
educational/"just fun" and work/play and desireable/undesireable.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The wording: "Go to bed" is what tripped me up. So II was thinking about whether some people take "try to say yes" as "never say
> appreciate your clarifying and confirming that hunch.
>
no," but really in the case of a kid who's complaining about the way her mom
is holding her, and throwing herself out of the mom's lap and blaming the
mom, to say "I'll hold you in the bed" is a form of yes ("Yes, I'll hold you but
let's do it on the bed") or "Maybe you're tired and should go to bed" isn't
making anyone do anything, and to FAIL to make such suggestions seems to be
setting sleep and bed aside as things to be avoided, as yucky stuff.
Children can make better choices when the world isn't divided into
educational/"just fun" and work/play and desireable/undesireable.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
One thing I did was to GIVE each child a dollar to spend. Another thing
was they sat in the cart and played with the foods - pretended they
were babies - especially bags of rice or beans that they could hold and
cuddle. When they were older we had a book called "Grocery Cart Math"
-- they played with that like a scavenger hunt. Each had a clipboard
and a pencil and the game was, for example, to find 5 things sold by
the ounce, write down the price, and figure out how much they were by
the pound. Or find 5 things sold by the gallon and figure out how much
they were if sold by the quart. Stuff like that. They'd do the
scavenger hunt part in the store and the figuring in the car on the way
home. I think they really liked the clipboard and pencil!! You wouldn't
need the book to do this - just make stuff up. Be creative. And it
doesn't have to have the math component - just make it a scavenger hunt
where they try to find funny little things - they can just check off if
they find it or write down the aisle.
We shopped in the middle of the night a lot - the aisles were big and
wide and the kids played - jumping on the different tiles on the floor
in patterns.
We always got a treat of some kind to have in the car on the way home -
little something.
I often picked out something strange and different that I knew we
hadn't had before - usually a fruit of some kind.
My kids are 14, 17, and 20 and they STILL always want to tag along to
the grocery store with me.
I want to add, though, that we had a couple of grocery store trips that
didn't go well - kids too hungry, probably, and they were fighting with
each other. I remember at least twice leaving a cart of groceries
(asking the clerk to put it in the cold room for me to return later)
and just going out to get fast food instead of finishing my shopping. I
remember being really irritated to have to do that - but it was
annoyance at myself for setting us up for the problems - not finding
something for the kids to eat before going grocery shopping - dragging
it out too long - whatever.
-pam
was they sat in the cart and played with the foods - pretended they
were babies - especially bags of rice or beans that they could hold and
cuddle. When they were older we had a book called "Grocery Cart Math"
-- they played with that like a scavenger hunt. Each had a clipboard
and a pencil and the game was, for example, to find 5 things sold by
the ounce, write down the price, and figure out how much they were by
the pound. Or find 5 things sold by the gallon and figure out how much
they were if sold by the quart. Stuff like that. They'd do the
scavenger hunt part in the store and the figuring in the car on the way
home. I think they really liked the clipboard and pencil!! You wouldn't
need the book to do this - just make stuff up. Be creative. And it
doesn't have to have the math component - just make it a scavenger hunt
where they try to find funny little things - they can just check off if
they find it or write down the aisle.
We shopped in the middle of the night a lot - the aisles were big and
wide and the kids played - jumping on the different tiles on the floor
in patterns.
We always got a treat of some kind to have in the car on the way home -
little something.
I often picked out something strange and different that I knew we
hadn't had before - usually a fruit of some kind.
My kids are 14, 17, and 20 and they STILL always want to tag along to
the grocery store with me.
I want to add, though, that we had a couple of grocery store trips that
didn't go well - kids too hungry, probably, and they were fighting with
each other. I remember at least twice leaving a cart of groceries
(asking the clerk to put it in the cold room for me to return later)
and just going out to get fast food instead of finishing my shopping. I
remember being really irritated to have to do that - but it was
annoyance at myself for setting us up for the problems - not finding
something for the kids to eat before going grocery shopping - dragging
it out too long - whatever.
-pam
On Jul 30, 2005, at 6:04 AM, Julie Bogart wrote:
>> Another thing to do to avert boredom and increase the spark of it
> being "an
>> outing" instead of just the same old grocery store is to go to
> different
>> grocery stores. Yes, it takes longer, but there are new sights for
> everyone.
Robyn Coburn
<<<<< I often picked out something strange and different that I knew we
hadn't had before - usually a fruit of some kind.>>>>>
I ask Jayn to pick out things and collect our particular basic items - the
bread we like, any tomatoes she chooses (they come packaged, but a gazillion
varieties), the eggs. If she can't find any particular item from the list,
she goes and asks a worker. We shop at a small market, Trader Joes, and she
is now well known to many of the staffers.
Also she likes to go and look at the different flowers, and smell them. She
can now be trusted not to mangle the bunches. Our TJ's has a little fountain
inside the door, and sometimes she throws in a penny for a wish. Another
game she likes, especially when I am standing in line, is to "magic" the
doors open and closed.
Also she invariably asks to eat a snack in the process, either sitting in
the cart or walking. Usually it will be a bag of barbeque chips or a small
cookie bag, sometimes little bags of madelines. Of course I pay for the
package at the checkout. We also like places that do samples (as our TJ's
does.)
<<<<I remember being really irritated to have to do that - but it was
annoyance at myself for setting us up for the problems - not finding
something for the kids to eat before going grocery shopping - dragging
it out too long - whatever.>>>
I haven't had to come back later, but I have cut the odd trip short, and
stood in the line holding Jayn in my arms with her head on my shoulder. That
has happened when we didn't bring a sweater and she got cold in the
refrigerated sections.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005
hadn't had before - usually a fruit of some kind.>>>>>
I ask Jayn to pick out things and collect our particular basic items - the
bread we like, any tomatoes she chooses (they come packaged, but a gazillion
varieties), the eggs. If she can't find any particular item from the list,
she goes and asks a worker. We shop at a small market, Trader Joes, and she
is now well known to many of the staffers.
Also she likes to go and look at the different flowers, and smell them. She
can now be trusted not to mangle the bunches. Our TJ's has a little fountain
inside the door, and sometimes she throws in a penny for a wish. Another
game she likes, especially when I am standing in line, is to "magic" the
doors open and closed.
Also she invariably asks to eat a snack in the process, either sitting in
the cart or walking. Usually it will be a bag of barbeque chips or a small
cookie bag, sometimes little bags of madelines. Of course I pay for the
package at the checkout. We also like places that do samples (as our TJ's
does.)
<<<<I remember being really irritated to have to do that - but it was
annoyance at myself for setting us up for the problems - not finding
something for the kids to eat before going grocery shopping - dragging
it out too long - whatever.>>>
I haven't had to come back later, but I have cut the odd trip short, and
stood in the line holding Jayn in my arms with her head on my shoulder. That
has happened when we didn't bring a sweater and she got cold in the
refrigerated sections.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/30/05 11:12:09 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
that, and with adults, too. <g>) If something was from Argentina or Holland
it just seemed worth a mention.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> And itI used to try to mention it if I saw something from far away. (I still do
> doesn't have to have the math component - just make it a scavenger hunt
> where they try to find funny little things - they can just check off if
> they find it or write down the aisle.
>
that, and with adults, too. <g>) If something was from Argentina or Holland
it just seemed worth a mention.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karri Lewis
When I'm out shopping I usually open up something that we are buying and let the kids eat. Lindsay loves to nibble all of the time so this is a way that I satisfy her need while grocery shopping.
-Karri
Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
I want to add, though, that we had a couple of grocery store trips that
didn't go well - kids too hungry, probably, and they were fighting with
each other. I remember at least twice leaving a cart of groceries
(asking the clerk to put it in the cold room for me to return later)
and just going out to get fast food instead of finishing my shopping. I
remember being really irritated to have to do that - but it was
annoyance at myself for setting us up for the problems - not finding
something for the kids to eat before going grocery shopping - dragging
it out too long - whatever.
-pam
Karri, Lindsay (4/16/02) and Camden (6/8/04)
We are students of words; we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-Karri
Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
I want to add, though, that we had a couple of grocery store trips that
didn't go well - kids too hungry, probably, and they were fighting with
each other. I remember at least twice leaving a cart of groceries
(asking the clerk to put it in the cold room for me to return later)
and just going out to get fast food instead of finishing my shopping. I
remember being really irritated to have to do that - but it was
annoyance at myself for setting us up for the problems - not finding
something for the kids to eat before going grocery shopping - dragging
it out too long - whatever.
-pam
Karri, Lindsay (4/16/02) and Camden (6/8/04)
We are students of words; we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
** Punishment and coercion would be saying "You apologize right now. You
sit and listen to me rant at you for what you did to me" That's not
what happens. These are calm conversations with lots of support for
both parties. These discussions take time and gentleness. We offer both.
If a child is too angry to sit down, he stands. If there is a need for
a few moments to regroup emotionally, of course we give it.**
(I've been away, so I'm coming back to this kind of late.)
Julie, I think the reason your first post set off people's coercion
alarms is that (as I recall) you started your description of the process
by saying "we sit them down on the couch...". Because this sentence
structure has the parent as the subject and the child as the object
(being set down or made to sit down) that could be why some people
pictured bossy parenting in their minds. Thanks for giving the longer
explanation. It's really hard for some of us highly emotional people to
imagine a face-to-face on the couch process like this working without
time for everyone to calm down first. Not being able to leave the scene
has the potential to make some people feel trapped and controlled.
Betsy
sit and listen to me rant at you for what you did to me" That's not
what happens. These are calm conversations with lots of support for
both parties. These discussions take time and gentleness. We offer both.
If a child is too angry to sit down, he stands. If there is a need for
a few moments to regroup emotionally, of course we give it.**
(I've been away, so I'm coming back to this kind of late.)
Julie, I think the reason your first post set off people's coercion
alarms is that (as I recall) you started your description of the process
by saying "we sit them down on the couch...". Because this sentence
structure has the parent as the subject and the child as the object
(being set down or made to sit down) that could be why some people
pictured bossy parenting in their minds. Thanks for giving the longer
explanation. It's really hard for some of us highly emotional people to
imagine a face-to-face on the couch process like this working without
time for everyone to calm down first. Not being able to leave the scene
has the potential to make some people feel trapped and controlled.
Betsy
InnerLight Academy
Hello,
We are life long homeschoolers(10 official years) and on our 2nd year as unschoolers.
My ds is 14 and wondering about writing a transcript.
for instance:
He does not care one bit to take Biology, Cnidarians do not interest him in the least and we were wondering how do we count a Biology credit on someone who will never study it. (Other that a litter of puppies over the summer) He is very automotive minded right now(since he was 8) and there is just no way I can count that as a mollusk.
All the cover schools in Alabama require it for graduation.
There are other subjects with the same issues. I just used Biology as an example.
Do I skip the ones he refuses and go on? Do I find pond water and suggest he look at while sitting in a car?
How do you guys count credits, if you count them at all?
Dena in Alabama
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We are life long homeschoolers(10 official years) and on our 2nd year as unschoolers.
My ds is 14 and wondering about writing a transcript.
for instance:
He does not care one bit to take Biology, Cnidarians do not interest him in the least and we were wondering how do we count a Biology credit on someone who will never study it. (Other that a litter of puppies over the summer) He is very automotive minded right now(since he was 8) and there is just no way I can count that as a mollusk.
All the cover schools in Alabama require it for graduation.
There are other subjects with the same issues. I just used Biology as an example.
Do I skip the ones he refuses and go on? Do I find pond water and suggest he look at while sitting in a car?
How do you guys count credits, if you count them at all?
Dena in Alabama
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
"(Other that a litter of puppies over the summer)"
I'd definitely tell the school about the litter of puppies. Did he
do anything other than observe that the puppies were born? Like did
he look up websites or books to see what to do to help if there's an
emergency? Even if not, I'm sure you could write up something about
observing the birth of a dog and monitoring the puppies.
Here's an online biology book that you could look at for ideas of
things you might have done that would sound like biology for a
school:
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookTOC.html
Reproduction is one of the chapters and I bet you covered a lot of
that when your puppies were born. Maybe you talked a bit about
genetics when you were guessing how many puppies would look like the
mom and how many would look like the dad. Genetics is a chapter too.
It's been awhile since I read it, but I think in the book
Homeschooling our Children Unschooling Ourselves she talks about her
son being into fly fishing and how they wrote that up for biology.
Has he done any gardening, or watched you do gardening? Or does he
have any other pets?
Here's one thing I'd use if I were doing a transcript for my kids and
had to explain what we did for biology:
For awhile we had a lot of animal teeth things connecting together in
neat ways.
First, my son and I were at Hershey Park and a groundhog boldly came
up to us begging for food. I've never seen a groundhog before that
wasn't dead on the side of the road. <grin> So we threw him a pizza
crust and watched him eat it and noticed that he ate just the way our
hamsters eat. We wondered if that is something that all rodents have
in common.
Several days later my husband came home with animal teeth that he
found on the side of the road at work, and thought we might enjoy
seeing them. He didn't know what they were, but he guessed groundhog
because he had seen a dead groundhog on the side of the road about
the same place a long time ago.
Several days later we went to my parents' house and played with their
new pet bunny. We wondered if rabbits were rodents too, and went
home and looked that up online. We found out that they're not
rodents because they have extra teeth, and found out that all rodents
teeth look the same.
Well, I thought of those teeth that dh had brought home, and I
pointed out to the kids that they didn't look like the pictures of
rodent teeth we were seeing online. I opened up the mouth of one of
our hamsters, and showed them the teeth. They looked nothing like
dh's roadkill teeth. Then I opened up our dog's mouth (Isn't it
nice how my pets tolerate me? <grin>) and we looked at his teeth. It
was a match!
That led to a discussion of what kind of animals might have been
killed in that area that had teeth like our dog.
Several days later we were driving in a residential area and saw a
skunk dead on the side of the road. It had just been killed. We
pulled over and got out to look at it. It's mouth was open and we
got a good look at its teeth and my daughter pointed out that his
teeth look just like our cat's teeth.
We also noticed that it hardly smelled at all, not like skunks
usually smell when they get hit by a car. So I said maybe it was
someone's pet and had been descented, and told her about a relative
that used to have a pet skunk. When she got home she used google to
find out what would be involved in having a pet skunk.
We're not getting a pet skunk but she does want to get 2 pet rats and
train them to do things like mazes. She just won an auction on ebay
for a cage, and she's been reading lots of stuff online about having
pet rats. She looked up breeders online and as soon as her cage comes
in the mail plans on calling them to see when she can buy her rats.
In a transcript I could write about animal classification
definitely. Maybe something with digestion because of the different
kinds of teeth different animals have and what they're used for.
We could write lots of other stuff about pets too, since my kids tend
to want a lot of pets. ;) Like that our pet turtle ate every other
living thing, plant or animal, that we put in the tank with him, and
that he just keeps getting bigger every year. <grin>
"He is very automotive minded right now(since he was 8) and there is
just no way I can count that as a mollusk."
Are we talking about a highschool transcript in order to meet the
requirements of the law or a transcipt for impressing a college so
that you can gain admission?
At first I thought you were talking about a college transcript and I
was going to ask if he wants to go to college if he's really into
automotive stuff, but later I see you seem to be talking about
highschool credits?
I can't think of anything automotive that would be biology, but I bet
you could come up with lots of stuff that he does with cars that
would be other branches of science. Maybe chemistry too, if you had
to figure out which detergents best cleaned his greasy work clothes.
<grin>
you did anything for that subject? I wouldn't do that if it's a
legal requirement and you could get in trouble for not showing it.
That would be something to discuss on a state homeschool list. But
you could find things that the school understands to be biology.
Have you gone anywhere like a science museum? Science museums tend
to have things that include many different branches of science. If
you look on your science museum's website you'll probably find that
some of the exhibits have something to do with biology. What about a
zoo? Aquarium?
What I do in my portfolio, and I'm in a different state (PA) so I
don't know if this is anything like what you could do, is I
write "Some of our favorite educational activities from this school
year" at the top of a paper and then just start putting in stuff that
might impress them. I don't point out that we didn't use a textbook--
I don't tell them what we didn't do, I tell them what we did do. In
our case we did a "unit study" on animals. In your case you did too,
just a different kind. I bet if you think of all the conversations
you had about your dog having puppies you could come up with lots of
neat things to write about.
"Do I find pond water and suggest he look at while sitting in a car? "
lol! I don't think that would really benefit anyone. It might lead
your son to believe that you're nuts though. ;)
But did he see a pond this year? What other bodies of water has he
seen? Has he seen a river, lake, ocean, stream? I bet he noticed
some differences. You could say that as part of your ecology study
you did a field trip to observe different bodies of water. Did he
wade in the creek? Catch any minnows or crayfish in the creek? Find
any seashells at the ocean? Did he bring them home? That's
observing specimens. ;)
Sheila
I'd definitely tell the school about the litter of puppies. Did he
do anything other than observe that the puppies were born? Like did
he look up websites or books to see what to do to help if there's an
emergency? Even if not, I'm sure you could write up something about
observing the birth of a dog and monitoring the puppies.
Here's an online biology book that you could look at for ideas of
things you might have done that would sound like biology for a
school:
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookTOC.html
Reproduction is one of the chapters and I bet you covered a lot of
that when your puppies were born. Maybe you talked a bit about
genetics when you were guessing how many puppies would look like the
mom and how many would look like the dad. Genetics is a chapter too.
It's been awhile since I read it, but I think in the book
Homeschooling our Children Unschooling Ourselves she talks about her
son being into fly fishing and how they wrote that up for biology.
Has he done any gardening, or watched you do gardening? Or does he
have any other pets?
Here's one thing I'd use if I were doing a transcript for my kids and
had to explain what we did for biology:
For awhile we had a lot of animal teeth things connecting together in
neat ways.
First, my son and I were at Hershey Park and a groundhog boldly came
up to us begging for food. I've never seen a groundhog before that
wasn't dead on the side of the road. <grin> So we threw him a pizza
crust and watched him eat it and noticed that he ate just the way our
hamsters eat. We wondered if that is something that all rodents have
in common.
Several days later my husband came home with animal teeth that he
found on the side of the road at work, and thought we might enjoy
seeing them. He didn't know what they were, but he guessed groundhog
because he had seen a dead groundhog on the side of the road about
the same place a long time ago.
Several days later we went to my parents' house and played with their
new pet bunny. We wondered if rabbits were rodents too, and went
home and looked that up online. We found out that they're not
rodents because they have extra teeth, and found out that all rodents
teeth look the same.
Well, I thought of those teeth that dh had brought home, and I
pointed out to the kids that they didn't look like the pictures of
rodent teeth we were seeing online. I opened up the mouth of one of
our hamsters, and showed them the teeth. They looked nothing like
dh's roadkill teeth. Then I opened up our dog's mouth (Isn't it
nice how my pets tolerate me? <grin>) and we looked at his teeth. It
was a match!
That led to a discussion of what kind of animals might have been
killed in that area that had teeth like our dog.
Several days later we were driving in a residential area and saw a
skunk dead on the side of the road. It had just been killed. We
pulled over and got out to look at it. It's mouth was open and we
got a good look at its teeth and my daughter pointed out that his
teeth look just like our cat's teeth.
We also noticed that it hardly smelled at all, not like skunks
usually smell when they get hit by a car. So I said maybe it was
someone's pet and had been descented, and told her about a relative
that used to have a pet skunk. When she got home she used google to
find out what would be involved in having a pet skunk.
We're not getting a pet skunk but she does want to get 2 pet rats and
train them to do things like mazes. She just won an auction on ebay
for a cage, and she's been reading lots of stuff online about having
pet rats. She looked up breeders online and as soon as her cage comes
in the mail plans on calling them to see when she can buy her rats.
In a transcript I could write about animal classification
definitely. Maybe something with digestion because of the different
kinds of teeth different animals have and what they're used for.
We could write lots of other stuff about pets too, since my kids tend
to want a lot of pets. ;) Like that our pet turtle ate every other
living thing, plant or animal, that we put in the tank with him, and
that he just keeps getting bigger every year. <grin>
"He is very automotive minded right now(since he was 8) and there is
just no way I can count that as a mollusk."
Are we talking about a highschool transcript in order to meet the
requirements of the law or a transcipt for impressing a college so
that you can gain admission?
At first I thought you were talking about a college transcript and I
was going to ask if he wants to go to college if he's really into
automotive stuff, but later I see you seem to be talking about
highschool credits?
I can't think of anything automotive that would be biology, but I bet
you could come up with lots of stuff that he does with cars that
would be other branches of science. Maybe chemistry too, if you had
to figure out which detergents best cleaned his greasy work clothes.
<grin>
> Do I skip the ones he refuses and go on?What do you mean by skip? Skip as in not showing the highschool that
you did anything for that subject? I wouldn't do that if it's a
legal requirement and you could get in trouble for not showing it.
That would be something to discuss on a state homeschool list. But
you could find things that the school understands to be biology.
Have you gone anywhere like a science museum? Science museums tend
to have things that include many different branches of science. If
you look on your science museum's website you'll probably find that
some of the exhibits have something to do with biology. What about a
zoo? Aquarium?
What I do in my portfolio, and I'm in a different state (PA) so I
don't know if this is anything like what you could do, is I
write "Some of our favorite educational activities from this school
year" at the top of a paper and then just start putting in stuff that
might impress them. I don't point out that we didn't use a textbook--
I don't tell them what we didn't do, I tell them what we did do. In
our case we did a "unit study" on animals. In your case you did too,
just a different kind. I bet if you think of all the conversations
you had about your dog having puppies you could come up with lots of
neat things to write about.
"Do I find pond water and suggest he look at while sitting in a car? "
lol! I don't think that would really benefit anyone. It might lead
your son to believe that you're nuts though. ;)
But did he see a pond this year? What other bodies of water has he
seen? Has he seen a river, lake, ocean, stream? I bet he noticed
some differences. You could say that as part of your ecology study
you did a field trip to observe different bodies of water. Did he
wade in the creek? Catch any minnows or crayfish in the creek? Find
any seashells at the ocean? Did he bring them home? That's
observing specimens. ;)
Sheila
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], InnerLight Academy
<innerlightacademy@y...> wrote:
Biology credit on someone who will never study it. (Other that a
litter of puppies over the summer) He is very automotive minded
right now(since he was 8) and there is just no way I can count that
as a mollusk.
That's interesting because there is no -legal- requirement that
states that -any- subject areas are necessary. One thought I had was
does he have to graduate? That is, can he simply move on to auto
tech school (my BIL and SIL are certified mechanics BTW) or whatever
once he turns 16 (max compulsory age in AL)? If necessary, I suppose
he could take his GED at that point (I don't think there's much
biology on the GED exam) - I did a quick look at some sample
questions online and all of the data you need is included in the
test material - so you don't need to have necessarily memorized all
the biology class thises and thats - if he can think logically
(which he probably can since diagnosing auto problems is actually
using scientific method type logic), he can likely pass it. I didn't
go to school in AL, but it was possible in my high school to get
enough science credits to graduate without ever taking biology (I
think you needed 3 or 4 yrs of science and you could take any of
what was offered - bio 1, bio 2, chem 1, chem 2, physics, earth
science - totally possible to skip all biology).
Oh hey if he might be interested - look into green house gases, auto
emissions, renewable energy sources (like the new hybrid cars) -
emissions, global warming, etc are biological issues -and-
automotive related.
<innerlightacademy@y...> wrote:
>year as unschoolers.
> Hello,
>
> We are life long homeschoolers(10 official years) and on our 2nd
>interest him in the least and we were wondering how do we count a
> My ds is 14 and wondering about writing a transcript.
>
> for instance:
>
> He does not care one bit to take Biology, Cnidarians do not
Biology credit on someone who will never study it. (Other that a
litter of puppies over the summer) He is very automotive minded
right now(since he was 8) and there is just no way I can count that
as a mollusk.
>as an example.
> All the cover schools in Alabama require it for graduation.
>
> There are other subjects with the same issues. I just used Biology
That's interesting because there is no -legal- requirement that
states that -any- subject areas are necessary. One thought I had was
does he have to graduate? That is, can he simply move on to auto
tech school (my BIL and SIL are certified mechanics BTW) or whatever
once he turns 16 (max compulsory age in AL)? If necessary, I suppose
he could take his GED at that point (I don't think there's much
biology on the GED exam) - I did a quick look at some sample
questions online and all of the data you need is included in the
test material - so you don't need to have necessarily memorized all
the biology class thises and thats - if he can think logically
(which he probably can since diagnosing auto problems is actually
using scientific method type logic), he can likely pass it. I didn't
go to school in AL, but it was possible in my high school to get
enough science credits to graduate without ever taking biology (I
think you needed 3 or 4 yrs of science and you could take any of
what was offered - bio 1, bio 2, chem 1, chem 2, physics, earth
science - totally possible to skip all biology).
Oh hey if he might be interested - look into green house gases, auto
emissions, renewable energy sources (like the new hybrid cars) -
emissions, global warming, etc are biological issues -and-
automotive related.
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/2/05 3:27:07 AM, sheran@... writes:
late, and hygiene, and disease prevention, and the realities of puberty.
Look through google for a book by Cafi Cohen on transcripts for high school.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookTOC.html%c2%a0I hope a 14 year old boy has had some learning about human reproduction of
> Reproduction is one of the chapters and I bet you covered a lot of
> that when your puppies were born. Maybe you talked a bit about
> genetics when you were guessing how many puppies would look like the
> mom and how many would look like the dad. Genetics is a chapter too.
>
late, and hygiene, and disease prevention, and the realities of puberty.
Look through google for a book by Cafi Cohen on transcripts for high school.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/2/05 6:39:51 AM, debra.rossing@... writes:
line above, and then let's move away from the particulars of cover schools in
Alabama, because it's not about how natural learning works.
Those with specific questions about particular provincial or state
requirements, should find lists or websites about those states and how unschoolers there
are dealing with particulars.
-=-so you don't need to have necessarily memorized all
the biology class thises and thats - if he can think logically
(which he probably can since diagnosing auto problems is actually
using scientific method type logic), he can likely pass it.-=-
Absolutely, on standardized tests. They're vocabulary at most (except for
math, which is also its own vocabulary). They're "read the paragraph and
answer the questions."
-=-Oh hey if he might be interested - look into green house gases, auto
emissions, renewable energy sources (like the new hybrid cars) -
emissions, global warming, etc are biological issues -and-
automotive related.
-=-
Old issues of National Geographic and Scientific American might be easily
found at thrift stores.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> That's interesting because there is no -legal- requirement thatPLEASE specify Alabama (or wherever) when making statements like the first
> states that -any- subject areas are necessary. One thought I had was
> does he have to graduate? That is, can he simply move on to auto
> tech school (my BIL and SIL are certified mechanics BTW) or whatever
> once he turns 16 (max compulsory age in AL)?
>
line above, and then let's move away from the particulars of cover schools in
Alabama, because it's not about how natural learning works.
Those with specific questions about particular provincial or state
requirements, should find lists or websites about those states and how unschoolers there
are dealing with particulars.
-=-so you don't need to have necessarily memorized all
the biology class thises and thats - if he can think logically
(which he probably can since diagnosing auto problems is actually
using scientific method type logic), he can likely pass it.-=-
Absolutely, on standardized tests. They're vocabulary at most (except for
math, which is also its own vocabulary). They're "read the paragraph and
answer the questions."
-=-Oh hey if he might be interested - look into green house gases, auto
emissions, renewable energy sources (like the new hybrid cars) -
emissions, global warming, etc are biological issues -and-
automotive related.
-=-
Old issues of National Geographic and Scientific American might be easily
found at thrift stores.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wifetovegman2002
--- In [email protected], InnerLight Academy
<innerlightacademy@y...> wrote:
such is by Alison McKee. I think the title is "From Homeschool to
Work and College" or something very similar...
Okay, here it is,I found it at amazon.com:
From Homeschool to College and Work: Turning Your Homeschooled
Experiences into College and Job Portfolios (Spiral-bound) by Alison McKee
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0965780619/qid=1122993638/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0917334-9759268?v=glance&s=books
~Susan M. in VA
wifetovegman
<innerlightacademy@y...> wrote:
>year as unschoolers.
> Hello,
>
> We are life long homeschoolers(10 official years) and on our 2nd
>A really great book, the best one I have found, about transcripts and
> My ds is 14 and wondering about writing a transcript.
>
such is by Alison McKee. I think the title is "From Homeschool to
Work and College" or something very similar...
Okay, here it is,I found it at amazon.com:
From Homeschool to College and Work: Turning Your Homeschooled
Experiences into College and Job Portfolios (Spiral-bound) by Alison McKee
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0965780619/qid=1122993638/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0917334-9759268?v=glance&s=books
~Susan M. in VA
wifetovegman
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
The OP specified she's in AL and I was thinking that in my head as I
typed.
--Deb
>Oops - sorry. I should have put "in AL" at the end of that first line.
> In a message dated 8/2/05 6:39:51 AM, debra.rossing@m... writes:
>
>
> > That's interesting because there is no -legal- requirement that
> > states that -any- subject areas are necessary. > >
>
> PLEASE specify Alabama (or wherever) when making statements like the
>first
> line above,
The OP specified she's in AL and I was thinking that in my head as I
typed.
--Deb
Pam Sorooshian
Opportunities After "High School": Thoughts, Documents, Resources, by
Wes Beach. Includes a number of transcripts that Wes Beach has written
for his students; these transcripts can be used as models for
homeschool transcripts. Also discusses community college enrollment;
preparing for, choosing, and applying to four-year colleges; and
opportunities other than formal academic study. A number of resource
books are described. Available from HSC: $10 to HSC Book Order, 5520
Old San Jose Road, Soquel, CA 95073.
And - Wes Beach will be speaking at this year's Live and Learn
Conference!! He is very much an unschooling advocate and his booklet is
especially useful for unschoolers who need transcripts.
-pam
Wes Beach. Includes a number of transcripts that Wes Beach has written
for his students; these transcripts can be used as models for
homeschool transcripts. Also discusses community college enrollment;
preparing for, choosing, and applying to four-year colleges; and
opportunities other than formal academic study. A number of resource
books are described. Available from HSC: $10 to HSC Book Order, 5520
Old San Jose Road, Soquel, CA 95073.
And - Wes Beach will be speaking at this year's Live and Learn
Conference!! He is very much an unschooling advocate and his booklet is
especially useful for unschoolers who need transcripts.
-pam
On Aug 2, 2005, at 7:16 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
> Look through google for a book by Cafi Cohen on transcripts for high
> school.
>
Betsy Hill
**He is very automotive minded right now(since he was 8) and there is
just no way I can count that as a mollusk.**
The Robot Zoo is an interesting book, showing what mechanical parts one
would use to make robot replicas of animals. Perhaps that might
intrigue him, if you could get it from the library.
(I realize this is borderline manipulative. Try the library and just
"strew" it, if you decide to use it.)
Betsy
just no way I can count that as a mollusk.**
The Robot Zoo is an interesting book, showing what mechanical parts one
would use to make robot replicas of animals. Perhaps that might
intrigue him, if you could get it from the library.
(I realize this is borderline manipulative. Try the library and just
"strew" it, if you decide to use it.)
Betsy
Robyn Coburn
> My ds is 14 and wondering about writing a transcript.interest him in the least and we were wondering how do we count a
>
> for instance:
>
> He does not care one bit to take Biology, Cnidarians do not
Biology credit on someone who will never study it. (Other that a
litter of puppies over the summer) He is very automotive minded
right now(since he was 8) and there is just no way I can count that
as a mollusk.
>I think this could be approaching it backwards - I mean getting tied in
> All the cover schools in Alabama require it for graduation.>>>>>
knots trying to make ordinary life into transcript type Biology or any other
subject, for college admissions purposes.
Another approach could be to examine the specific admissions requirements
for the particular courses that your ds is interested in at the colleges of
interest, as well as what might be available in community colleges that
expect students to transfer after a time. The colleges are the ones choosing
their own requirements or standards, not the State high schools. There may
be a simple one semester Biology (or other subject) course, designed for
people whose high school experience is judged inadequate for the college
coursework. For that matter Biology may not be required at all for the
College course of study or degree program that your son may become
interested in.
Once again I am reminded of Valerie's dd, Laurie, who learnt all the formal
math she needed for her particular college admissions requirement over a
couple of months prior to enrollment due to having the desire and motivation
to do so when it was essential to allow her to continue pursuing her
particular goals. ("The Unprocessed Child", Valerie Fitzenreiter)
Another thought is that you are worrying about it a few years earlier than
it will necessarily be impinging on his future plans. He has years yet to
discover Biology before college.
Maybe try subscriptions to Scientific American and Popular Science. There
may be paths into biology from the mechanics and physics that are already in
the forefront of his mind, that some of those articles will inspire.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.8/61 - Release Date: 8/1/2005
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/2/05 10:09:56 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
I should've just sent this link right away, as it has links to Wes Beach
and Cafi Cohen and Alison McKee all:
http://sandradodd.com/teen/college
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Opportunities After "High School": Thoughts, Documents, Resources, byDOH! Forgot.
> Wes Beach. Includes a number of transcripts that Wes Beach has written
> for his students; these transcripts can be used as models for
> homeschool transcripts. Also discusses community college enrollment;
> preparing for, choosing, and applying to four-year colleges; and
> opportunities other than formal academic study. A number of resource
> books are described. Available from HSC: $10 to HSC Book Order, 5520
> Old San Jose Road, Soquel, CA 95073.
>
I should've just sent this link right away, as it has links to Wes Beach
and Cafi Cohen and Alison McKee all:
http://sandradodd.com/teen/college
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
Placement - that, if passed with a certain score will count as a
science credit - and for many college majors, one science is all
that is needed. DH did that - he tested out of all the science,
math, and fine arts he'd need for his major and jumped over the 101
English and history requirements as well - a couple days of tests
(which he compared to a few hours of watching Jeopardy and playing
Trivial Pursuit) and he already had enough credit hours to almost be
a sophomore (he tested out of 1 1/2 semesters worth of work).
--Deb
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
>There maydesigned >for
> be a simple one semester Biology (or other subject) course,
> people whose high school experience is judged inadequate for theNot to mention that there is a CLEP - College Level Exam for
>college
> coursework. For that matter Biology may not be required at all for
>the
> College course of study or degree program that your son may become
> interested in.
Placement - that, if passed with a certain score will count as a
science credit - and for many college majors, one science is all
that is needed. DH did that - he tested out of all the science,
math, and fine arts he'd need for his major and jumped over the 101
English and history requirements as well - a couple days of tests
(which he compared to a few hours of watching Jeopardy and playing
Trivial Pursuit) and he already had enough credit hours to almost be
a sophomore (he tested out of 1 1/2 semesters worth of work).
--Deb
InnerLight Academy
I want to thank you all for the help and suggestions. I will check out those book ideas.
I dont know what got into me. I just all of the sudden panicked when I realized he would be a 9th grader this year. Sometimes, I fall back into the box. LOL
I really dont see him going to a formal college. He plans to be a professional dragracer and go to top fuel alchohol driver school. Somehow I dont think he will need Biology. It has awakened me to the fact that my next child '12' will possibly be needing to cover certian subjects in the near future and I should be watching for opportunities in her favored areas a little more closely.
I have talked to some of my local Alabama lists and have learned a bit more about what I am required and not required to cover.
BTW We did cover some biology today at the vet. Our dog has demodectic mange and the vet let the kids watch him do skin scrapes,prepare the slides, and follow him to the microscope in the back to look at the critters. They each got to look at the cigar shaped many legged bugs. He also told the kids all about them.
THANKS
Dena in Alabama
www.impactraceteam.com
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I dont know what got into me. I just all of the sudden panicked when I realized he would be a 9th grader this year. Sometimes, I fall back into the box. LOL
I really dont see him going to a formal college. He plans to be a professional dragracer and go to top fuel alchohol driver school. Somehow I dont think he will need Biology. It has awakened me to the fact that my next child '12' will possibly be needing to cover certian subjects in the near future and I should be watching for opportunities in her favored areas a little more closely.
I have talked to some of my local Alabama lists and have learned a bit more about what I am required and not required to cover.
BTW We did cover some biology today at the vet. Our dog has demodectic mange and the vet let the kids watch him do skin scrapes,prepare the slides, and follow him to the microscope in the back to look at the critters. They each got to look at the cigar shaped many legged bugs. He also told the kids all about them.
THANKS
Dena in Alabama
www.impactraceteam.com
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I wanted to suggest the book, "How Life Works" (can't remember the authors
right now!)...it's almost a comic book style biology book...tons of pictures,
really cool. I will count this towards/as my son's biology, as he's been
reading it.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
right now!)...it's almost a comic book style biology book...tons of pictures,
really cool. I will count this towards/as my son's biology, as he's been
reading it.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], InnerLight Academy
<innerlightacademy@y...> wrote:
out well.
--Deb
<innerlightacademy@y...> wrote:
>Poor pup! That can be a nasty, uncomfortable problem. Hope all turns
>> BTW We did cover some biology today at the vet. Our dog has
>demodectic mange and the vet let the kids watch him do skin
>scrapes,prepare the slides, and follow him to the microscope in the
>back to look at the critters. They each got to look at the cigar
>shaped many legged bugs. He also told the kids all about them.
>
> THANKS
>
> Dena in Alabama
out well.
--Deb
Salamander starr
A
To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all.
--Oscar Wilde
Dena,
I was curious, why is it necessary for him to "graduate"?
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all.
--Oscar Wilde
Dena,
I was curious, why is it necessary for him to "graduate"?
>_________________________________________________________________
>My ds is 14 and wondering about writing a transcript.
>
>for instance:
>
>He does not care one bit to take Biology, Cnidarians do not interest him
>in the least and we were wondering how do we count a Biology credit on
>someone who will never study it. (Other that a litter of puppies over the
>summer) He is very automotive minded right now(since he was 8) and there is
>just no way I can count that as a mollusk.
>
>All the cover schools in Alabama require it for graduation.
>
>There are other subjects with the same issues. I just used Biology as an
>example.
>
>
>
>Do I skip the ones he refuses and go on? Do I find pond water and suggest
>he look at while sitting in a car?
>
>How do you guys count credits, if you count them at all?
>
>Dena in Alabama
>
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It is not really a necessity, his PS friends have been talking about writing transcripts and he was interested. One of them had a 'list' of what subjects had to be covered to get one of three diplomas from our county in Alabama. That is where the Biology came in. (That was when I realized he would be 9th grade this year and maybe he could use one.)
However, after asking on this list (and two others )we have decided that if he ever needs one we will deal with it then and he can keep an informal journal of his doings to remember activities for later inclusion if ever needed.
He plans to become a professional drag racer and go to driving school which doesnt require anything but a drivers license and money. Otherwise hands on experience is all he needs right now and he gets plenty of that weekly with his Jr dragster. He does it all except push himself to the start line and we do that.
He is a perfectionist and wants to worry (be prepared) for all the what if's, before we even need to. He gets that from me. :o)
Dena
www.impactraceteam.com
Salamander starr <salamanderstarr@...> wrote:
Dena,
I was curious, why is it necessary for him to "graduate"?
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
However, after asking on this list (and two others )we have decided that if he ever needs one we will deal with it then and he can keep an informal journal of his doings to remember activities for later inclusion if ever needed.
He plans to become a professional drag racer and go to driving school which doesnt require anything but a drivers license and money. Otherwise hands on experience is all he needs right now and he gets plenty of that weekly with his Jr dragster. He does it all except push himself to the start line and we do that.
He is a perfectionist and wants to worry (be prepared) for all the what if's, before we even need to. He gets that from me. :o)
Dena
www.impactraceteam.com
Salamander starr <salamanderstarr@...> wrote:
Dena,
I was curious, why is it necessary for him to "graduate"?
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]