Noelle's Homeschool Comments/Questions
m59z85
Noelle was very curious about homeschooling/unschooling in a "how
will your
children survive this very uncool thing?" kind of way.
Some of of her comments and questions:
Noelle: If you homeschool them in high school and they are
teenagers when will they go to bed and when will they get up?
Me: They will go to bed when they are tired and get up when they
are rested.
Noelle: Oh!
====================================================================
Noelle was incredibly frustrated that my 6 year old daughter Sarah
would not buckle herself in to her booster seat in the car.
Noelle sat on Sarah's side of the car and I asked Noelle if she
would take on the job of buckling Sarah in when we went somewhere.
Noelle constantly forgot and, rather than get out and buckle the
seat belt, Noelle would turn around and try to talk Sarah in to
doing it herself. Each time this happened I said, "She will do it
when she is ready" and I would lean back and buckle it myself.
Once, when this happened Noelle snapped, "What if she is never
ready?"
I said, "I hardly think she will go to college in a booster seat.
Someday she will be ready."
====================================================================
Noelle also asked what Sarah and Olivia would do if they wanted to
go to college.
I didn't really understand what she wanted to know so I told her
they would go if they wanted to.
Noelle said, "No, I mean how will they know how to take a class if
they've never been in class before?"
I said, "Just because they haven't been in class doesn't mean they
don't know how to learn. They do."
Noelle said, "Oh."
I think she might have been wondering how they would know to raise
their hands, act in class, etc.
=====================================================================
Earlier in our visit Noelle had told me that children don't need
their parents. Just a few days later she told me this:
Noelle: How do you do school?
Me: We don't really do school, we just get involved in whatever
Sarah and Olivia are interested in and we go out a lot and do things.
Noelle: What if they don't know what they are interested in?
Me: But they do.
Noelle: Little kids don't know what they want--they need guidance.
Me: I disagree. In my experience children are born knowing without
a doubt what they want and then they lose that knowing when school
and their parents force it out of them.
Noelle: Well, I don't know what I want.
(Ahh, I thought, this is what it's really about and how sad that
Noelle has already lost that at 14. Then I started wondering if it
was possible for her to find that knowledge again--is it too late?
I kept offering "The Teen Liberation Handbook" (Grace Llewellyn) but
she wouldn't take it or even listen to what it was about.) Maybe
she got a little bit of her self back by argueing with me for 10
days!
Linda
will your
children survive this very uncool thing?" kind of way.
Some of of her comments and questions:
Noelle: If you homeschool them in high school and they are
teenagers when will they go to bed and when will they get up?
Me: They will go to bed when they are tired and get up when they
are rested.
Noelle: Oh!
====================================================================
Noelle was incredibly frustrated that my 6 year old daughter Sarah
would not buckle herself in to her booster seat in the car.
Noelle sat on Sarah's side of the car and I asked Noelle if she
would take on the job of buckling Sarah in when we went somewhere.
Noelle constantly forgot and, rather than get out and buckle the
seat belt, Noelle would turn around and try to talk Sarah in to
doing it herself. Each time this happened I said, "She will do it
when she is ready" and I would lean back and buckle it myself.
Once, when this happened Noelle snapped, "What if she is never
ready?"
I said, "I hardly think she will go to college in a booster seat.
Someday she will be ready."
====================================================================
Noelle also asked what Sarah and Olivia would do if they wanted to
go to college.
I didn't really understand what she wanted to know so I told her
they would go if they wanted to.
Noelle said, "No, I mean how will they know how to take a class if
they've never been in class before?"
I said, "Just because they haven't been in class doesn't mean they
don't know how to learn. They do."
Noelle said, "Oh."
I think she might have been wondering how they would know to raise
their hands, act in class, etc.
=====================================================================
Earlier in our visit Noelle had told me that children don't need
their parents. Just a few days later she told me this:
Noelle: How do you do school?
Me: We don't really do school, we just get involved in whatever
Sarah and Olivia are interested in and we go out a lot and do things.
Noelle: What if they don't know what they are interested in?
Me: But they do.
Noelle: Little kids don't know what they want--they need guidance.
Me: I disagree. In my experience children are born knowing without
a doubt what they want and then they lose that knowing when school
and their parents force it out of them.
Noelle: Well, I don't know what I want.
(Ahh, I thought, this is what it's really about and how sad that
Noelle has already lost that at 14. Then I started wondering if it
was possible for her to find that knowledge again--is it too late?
I kept offering "The Teen Liberation Handbook" (Grace Llewellyn) but
she wouldn't take it or even listen to what it was about.) Maybe
she got a little bit of her self back by argueing with me for 10
days!
Linda
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/22/05 5:38:08 AM, maggioncalda@... writes:
years (or more <g>). She'll run her ideas through that filter whether she
wants to or not from time to time over her life.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> MaybeNo doubt! And the effects of those days will probably last her at least ten
> she got a little bit of her self back by argueing with me for 10
> days!
>
years (or more <g>). She'll run her ideas through that filter whether she
wants to or not from time to time over her life.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
> (Ahh, I thought, this is what it's really about and how sad thatI remember arguing with someone about homeschooling when I was a
> Noelle has already lost that at 14. Then I started wondering if it
> was possible for her to find that knowledge again--is it too late?
> I kept offering "The Teen Liberation Handbook" (Grace Llewellyn) but
> she wouldn't take it or even listen to what it was about.) Maybe
> she got a little bit of her self back by argueing with me for 10
> days!
teenager. The guy I argued with went to public school and was
probably a senior. I was probably a sophomore. Some guy had come to
speak at his church to promote homeschooling--very conservative Bob
Jones University school at home homeschooling. His parents thought it
sounded good, and wished they had done it with their kids, and he
agreed. My parents, who were both teachers, heard about this and
thought it was ridiculous. My mom had just taken me and some friends
to a church camp retreat, where a homeschooled teen girl and her mom
had attended, and the girl was very shy and didn't speak to anyone,
and her mom always answered for her. My mom blasted homeschooling big
time after that, and I had it in my mind for a long time that
homeschooling was insane. I knew nothing about unschooling, but had
it in my mind that there was something about school that kids NEED and
to keep them away from it was nuts.
I think that what I thought kids needed was time away from their
parents and exposure to a bigger world than what they had at home. My
parents were VERY strict, and my mom and I often didn't get along well
when I was a teenager, and the thought of her homeschooling me
brought visions of yelling and crying and worse as she made me sit
bored out of my mind all day at the kitchen table as she taught me.
A title like The Teenage Liberation Handbook would have appealed to me
BIG TIME when I was a teenager. I remember one summer I spent working
as kitchen staff at my church's kids' camp, and I said to my dad once
that fall that it was REALLY hard for me to be living at home again
after having so much freedom as a staff member at camp. He accepted
that I felt that way and even admitted that he understood, but he
didn't drop any of the rules. I think he felt it was his
responsibility to be strict, that that's what made him a good parent.
Yet I wonder, if I had met a radically unschooled teenager when I was
a teenager, if I would have thought it was somehow wrong or weird. I
had it in my mind that even though the strictness of my parents and
the ridiculousness of school was unpleasant, it was somehow necessary.
I thought there was something wrong with *me* that I didn't like it,
and that I just had to work harder to be what everyone expected me to
be.
I bet I would have argued with you back then too. But look at me now. ;)
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/22/05 8:05:46 PM, sheran@... writes:
My own get that, with unschooling and the freedom and encouragement they get
from us to listen to other adults when they get the chance, to go out and
hang out with people of all ages who are doing what they're doing.
Some kids (in or out of school) are GREATLY discouraged by their parents from
talking to or trusting ANYone outside the family, from being honest with
anyone (outside the family they mean, but that seems to instantly become "nor
honest INside the family") and once communications and trust are cut off, the
person is not really a part of any greater group of people.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I think that what I thought kids needed was time away from theirI think some kids do need that.
> parents and exposure to a bigger world than what they had at home.
>
My own get that, with unschooling and the freedom and encouragement they get
from us to listen to other adults when they get the chance, to go out and
hang out with people of all ages who are doing what they're doing.
Some kids (in or out of school) are GREATLY discouraged by their parents from
talking to or trusting ANYone outside the family, from being honest with
anyone (outside the family they mean, but that seems to instantly become "nor
honest INside the family") and once communications and trust are cut off, the
person is not really a part of any greater group of people.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
teenager, the only people I knew who were homeschooling were people
whose kids did not have exposure to a very big world at all, and I
imagined that if I had been homeschooled by my already strict parents,
my world wouldn't have been very big at all. I imagined (and I'm sure
I was right, because they wouldn't have been unschoolers) that the
result would be even more tension between me and my parents.
I couldn't imagine, back then, that a kid not going to school and
therefore spending more time with her parents and in her home and
going to places that her parents approved of her going would be very
much fun. And I also thought, back then, that parents who let their
kids have the kind of freedom that unschooled kids have were the kind
of parents who didn't care much about their kids and didn't really
care about being good parents.
Maybe Noelle is thinking somewhat along those lines.
Sheila
>Yes, I agree. What I was trying to express was that when I was a
> In a message dated 7/22/05 8:05:46 PM, sheran@p... writes:
>
>
> > I think that what I thought kids needed was time away from their
> > parents and exposure to a bigger world than what they had at home.
> >
>
> I think some kids do need that.
teenager, the only people I knew who were homeschooling were people
whose kids did not have exposure to a very big world at all, and I
imagined that if I had been homeschooled by my already strict parents,
my world wouldn't have been very big at all. I imagined (and I'm sure
I was right, because they wouldn't have been unschoolers) that the
result would be even more tension between me and my parents.
I couldn't imagine, back then, that a kid not going to school and
therefore spending more time with her parents and in her home and
going to places that her parents approved of her going would be very
much fun. And I also thought, back then, that parents who let their
kids have the kind of freedom that unschooled kids have were the kind
of parents who didn't care much about their kids and didn't really
care about being good parents.
Maybe Noelle is thinking somewhat along those lines.
Sheila
K Krejci
--- kayb85 <sheran@...> wrote:
homeschooled throughout my growing-up years. It just
wasn't done. My first experience was with a woman who
owns a car repair shop. I was well into my 20s and it
didn't even make a blip on my radar as something that
was even happening. I mean, I could see her son there
in the shop every time I went (we had crummy cars - I
was an excellent customer!) but it didn't even sink in
that there was something else going on. Not only was
she homeschooling, she was unschooling. And I only
figured this out in May (a mere 20 years later)!
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> Yes, I agree. What I was trying to express was thatI can't even think of a single person I knew who
> when I was a
> teenager, the only people I knew who were
> homeschooling were people
> whose kids did not have exposure to a very big world
> at all, and I
> imagined that if I had been homeschooled by my
> already strict parents,
> my world wouldn't have been very big at all.
homeschooled throughout my growing-up years. It just
wasn't done. My first experience was with a woman who
owns a car repair shop. I was well into my 20s and it
didn't even make a blip on my radar as something that
was even happening. I mean, I could see her son there
in the shop every time I went (we had crummy cars - I
was an excellent customer!) but it didn't even sink in
that there was something else going on. Not only was
she homeschooling, she was unschooling. And I only
figured this out in May (a mere 20 years later)!
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Jenn
SandraDodd@... wrote:
of the family) anything about those of us within our immediate family
(my mom, brother and myself). I am now not a very trusting person, but I
thought it stemmed from years of getting hurt by others. Now I wonder if
there wasn't mistrust as a child, that I just don't recall. There had to
be. That is sad. It is probably something I have passed onto my kids
without knowing. I have told my daughter not to tell her friends certain
things, like the fact that my four year-old son still uses a bottle
twice a day or other things that I feel comfortable with but not with
other people knowing. I live in an apt. complex where threatening to
call DSS on a family is the norm. Way too many nosy, gossipy, insecure
woman in here, whom have raised aggressive, bullying, obnoxious,
foul-mouth children. I also don't need the added aggravation of hearing
anyone's judgments.
But...(getting off track there), I don't want to raise my children that
way. It amazes me sometimes how you go through life doing something and
realize later on that that something was actually a negative thing.
Thank you Sandra for point ing this out. :)
Jenn
> Some kids (in or out of school) are GREATLY discouraged by theirMy mother raised us where we were not allowed to tell ANYONE (in or out
> parents from
> talking to or trusting ANYone outside the family, from being honest with
> anyone (outside the family they mean, but that seems to instantly
> become "nor
> honest INside the family") and once communications and trust are cut
> off, the
> person is not really a part of any greater group of people.
of the family) anything about those of us within our immediate family
(my mom, brother and myself). I am now not a very trusting person, but I
thought it stemmed from years of getting hurt by others. Now I wonder if
there wasn't mistrust as a child, that I just don't recall. There had to
be. That is sad. It is probably something I have passed onto my kids
without knowing. I have told my daughter not to tell her friends certain
things, like the fact that my four year-old son still uses a bottle
twice a day or other things that I feel comfortable with but not with
other people knowing. I live in an apt. complex where threatening to
call DSS on a family is the norm. Way too many nosy, gossipy, insecure
woman in here, whom have raised aggressive, bullying, obnoxious,
foul-mouth children. I also don't need the added aggravation of hearing
anyone's judgments.
But...(getting off track there), I don't want to raise my children that
way. It amazes me sometimes how you go through life doing something and
realize later on that that something was actually a negative thing.
Thank you Sandra for point ing this out. :)
Jenn
Jenn
kayb85 wrote:
unschoolers, parents or children, and just recently even heard of the
term, so if my question sounds ridiculous please forgive. :)
I have read about all the wonderful ways that children are respected, by
their unschooling families, and the freedoms they are given to know what
is in their interests, etc. I was wondering what type, if any, limits
are there ---do y'all set? What do you not approve of? Perhaps there is
nothing and I am still not seeing everything in the same way.
I have known families where the parents were strict, super strict,
neglectful, lenient and whom overcompensate. I don't believe, from what
I have read, that unschoolers fall into any of these categories and I
realize that those labels are not truly fair to families. When I first
heard of unschooling I tried to trace my memories to find an incidence
or person that I once knew who were unschoolers and the closest I could
come to were the families where the mother is calmly telling her child
why he/she shouldn't hit mommy ---but that is not what unschooling is
about, correct? And I'm not talking about unschooling in an academic
way but within the family as a whole.
I hope I made sense.
TIA
Jenn :)
> I couldn't imagine, back then, that a kid not going to school andThis raises a, perhaps ignorant, question. I have never met any
> therefore spending more time with her parents and in her home and
> going to places that her parents approved of her going would be very
> much fun. And I also thought, back then, that parents who let their
> kids have the kind of freedom that unschooled kids have were the kind
> of parents who didn't care much about their kids and didn't really
> care about being good parents.
unschoolers, parents or children, and just recently even heard of the
term, so if my question sounds ridiculous please forgive. :)
I have read about all the wonderful ways that children are respected, by
their unschooling families, and the freedoms they are given to know what
is in their interests, etc. I was wondering what type, if any, limits
are there ---do y'all set? What do you not approve of? Perhaps there is
nothing and I am still not seeing everything in the same way.
I have known families where the parents were strict, super strict,
neglectful, lenient and whom overcompensate. I don't believe, from what
I have read, that unschoolers fall into any of these categories and I
realize that those labels are not truly fair to families. When I first
heard of unschooling I tried to trace my memories to find an incidence
or person that I once knew who were unschoolers and the closest I could
come to were the families where the mother is calmly telling her child
why he/she shouldn't hit mommy ---but that is not what unschooling is
about, correct? And I'm not talking about unschooling in an academic
way but within the family as a whole.
I hope I made sense.
TIA
Jenn :)
Julie Bogart
Just back from Italy with our family of seven and this post really
caught my eye in light of the wonderful family time we had there.
--- In [email protected], Jenn <jfischetto@g...>
wrote:
have asked too. After being here over two years time, I realized I had
the question backwards. A better question is "What can I do with my
kids that I haven't been doing? What can I say yes to that I used to
say no to?"
When I first
We just returned from Italy for 18 days. We stayed in tiny apartments
and were together 24/7. My oldest is 18 and my youngest is 8. This is
what I wrote upon our return. To me, this is what unschooling is all
about:
Italy is a memory, but a bright, life-sized one that I'll hold in my
heart until I'm gone. And while Italy itself is a gorgeous country
filled with color, music, light and flavor, it was the joy of being a
family that will stay with me even longer.
I am in love.
In love with our kids.
In love with my husband.
The two and a half weeks were spent all together with very few times
where we split up. We played games, shared books, rode public
transport all smooshed into too tiny spaces, hiked, made jokes, rode
bikes in ancient walls, looked at world class art, were bored by too
many churches from the 10th century, learned Italian catch phrases,
were horrified by Roman history, ate gelatto like there was only one
scoop left, compared American pizza to Italian and voted for American,
we snuggled and hugged, took photographs, danced in endless
combinations of relatives, walked and talked, and played chess and cards.
The vacation was one long family love fest.
I am humbled. I wanted to bring my children to the world. Instead, the
world brought them closer to me. Jon and I were in awe of how well
they get along, how much fun we all can have together. It is the
unexpected end result and it is why I'm in tears at this early
jet-lagged hour.
And I'm not talking about unschooling in an academic
To me, unschooling is the joy of being a family engaged in life, LIFE!
It is saying yes to opportunities and sharing them with each other. It
is reveling in our differences and similarities. It is being a family
that loves to be together but also supports separateness too.
I used to think unschooling was about education.
Now I know it's about a family life that is filled with love, peace
and joy. Really. I know how corny that sounds, but it turns out to be
true.
Julie
caught my eye in light of the wonderful family time we had there.
--- In [email protected], Jenn <jfischetto@g...>
wrote:
> I have read about all the wonderful ways that children arerespected, by
> their unschooling families, and the freedoms they are given to knowwhat
> is in their interests, etc. I was wondering what type, if any, limitsWhen I first joined this list, this was the kind of question I might
> are there ---do y'all set? What do you not approve of?
have asked too. After being here over two years time, I realized I had
the question backwards. A better question is "What can I do with my
kids that I haven't been doing? What can I say yes to that I used to
say no to?"
When I first
> heard of unschooling I tried to trace my memories to find an incidenceNo, I don't think so. :)
> or person that I once knew who were unschoolers and the closest I could
> come to were the families where the mother is calmly telling her child
> why he/she shouldn't hit mommy ---but that is not what unschooling is
> about, correct?
We just returned from Italy for 18 days. We stayed in tiny apartments
and were together 24/7. My oldest is 18 and my youngest is 8. This is
what I wrote upon our return. To me, this is what unschooling is all
about:
Italy is a memory, but a bright, life-sized one that I'll hold in my
heart until I'm gone. And while Italy itself is a gorgeous country
filled with color, music, light and flavor, it was the joy of being a
family that will stay with me even longer.
I am in love.
In love with our kids.
In love with my husband.
The two and a half weeks were spent all together with very few times
where we split up. We played games, shared books, rode public
transport all smooshed into too tiny spaces, hiked, made jokes, rode
bikes in ancient walls, looked at world class art, were bored by too
many churches from the 10th century, learned Italian catch phrases,
were horrified by Roman history, ate gelatto like there was only one
scoop left, compared American pizza to Italian and voted for American,
we snuggled and hugged, took photographs, danced in endless
combinations of relatives, walked and talked, and played chess and cards.
The vacation was one long family love fest.
I am humbled. I wanted to bring my children to the world. Instead, the
world brought them closer to me. Jon and I were in awe of how well
they get along, how much fun we all can have together. It is the
unexpected end result and it is why I'm in tears at this early
jet-lagged hour.
And I'm not talking about unschooling in an academic
> way but within the family as a whole.You've got it.
To me, unschooling is the joy of being a family engaged in life, LIFE!
It is saying yes to opportunities and sharing them with each other. It
is reveling in our differences and similarities. It is being a family
that loves to be together but also supports separateness too.
I used to think unschooling was about education.
Now I know it's about a family life that is filled with love, peace
and joy. Really. I know how corny that sounds, but it turns out to be
true.
Julie
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/23/05 3:23:18 PM, julie@... writes:
10th century churches in our lives...
But I remember the feeling of being "museum sick" and tired of touristing,
both from England and from Washington D.C., where after a while the french fries
at the cafeteria were MUCH more interesting to me than yet another hall of
rare coins or gold nuggets or even Howdy Doody himself. And my memories of
English castles got mixed up in my head. Better to study ONE and have it
clearly imprinted, maybe.
That was a beautiful description of your feelings about your family, Julie.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> were bored by tooAh, if only you could distribute them one to each of us who've had too few
> many churches from the 10th century
>
10th century churches in our lives...
But I remember the feeling of being "museum sick" and tired of touristing,
both from England and from Washington D.C., where after a while the french fries
at the cafeteria were MUCH more interesting to me than yet another hall of
rare coins or gold nuggets or even Howdy Doody himself. And my memories of
English castles got mixed up in my head. Better to study ONE and have it
clearly imprinted, maybe.
That was a beautiful description of your feelings about your family, Julie.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/23/05 2:32:39 PM, jfischetto@... writes:
too) let people know where they're going and when they'll be back. We call if
plans change.
If anyone finishes off the milk, or it's getting low, they need to get
another gallon from the fridge in back. If the trash is full, someone will take
that bag down and replace the bag. If the dog's dish is empty, someone will
fill it.
It's considered tacky not to put the cordless phones back on their bases and
to turn most of the lights off at night.
We try to be quiet if someone's asleep, but if noon has passed and there are
no extenuating circumstances, noise is okay.
Whoever finishes off any food item that we stock regularly should put it on
the list.
If any of those things are not done, someone (any of us) might snark at
someone (whoever could've done better), or might even more likely NOT.
-=the closest I could
come to were the families where the mother is calmly telling her child
why he/she shouldn't hit mommy-=-
Eeew. And in the poodle voice? Sing-songy? Gags me.
-=I have known families where the parents were strict, super strict,
neglectful, lenient and whom overcompensate.-=-
One can only be "lenient" in the presence of rules.
One can only OVERcompensate when the observer thinks it was more than
necessary.
When you tell us what you've seen you accidentally tell us part of what you
believe. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I was wondering what type, if any, limitsWe don't like dishonesty, and we ask that people (not just kids, but adults
> are there ---do y'all set? What do you not approve of?
>
too) let people know where they're going and when they'll be back. We call if
plans change.
If anyone finishes off the milk, or it's getting low, they need to get
another gallon from the fridge in back. If the trash is full, someone will take
that bag down and replace the bag. If the dog's dish is empty, someone will
fill it.
It's considered tacky not to put the cordless phones back on their bases and
to turn most of the lights off at night.
We try to be quiet if someone's asleep, but if noon has passed and there are
no extenuating circumstances, noise is okay.
Whoever finishes off any food item that we stock regularly should put it on
the list.
If any of those things are not done, someone (any of us) might snark at
someone (whoever could've done better), or might even more likely NOT.
-=the closest I could
come to were the families where the mother is calmly telling her child
why he/she shouldn't hit mommy-=-
Eeew. And in the poodle voice? Sing-songy? Gags me.
-=I have known families where the parents were strict, super strict,
neglectful, lenient and whom overcompensate.-=-
One can only be "lenient" in the presence of rules.
One can only OVERcompensate when the observer thinks it was more than
necessary.
When you tell us what you've seen you accidentally tell us part of what you
believe. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenn
SandraDodd@... wrote:
to believe and haven't truly figured out what *I* believe yet. I have
had one close and one semi-close friendship with a parent who, in my
eyes, overcompensates, and *I*, and my daughter, have had a hard time
"dealing" with the child. What I call overcompensating is a parent who
can not go to a store for a gallon of milk without also purchasing a toy
for the child, a parent who will spend $300 on one child for Christmas
and have to borrow money to pay their electricity. It was actually the
parent that I knew quite well with whom I thought of the word
"overcompensating" because she herself stated that she wondered if she
did all she did because her own mother did very little. I am trying to
not be judgmental so I realize labels aren't "correct". I grew up in an
overly critical household filled with many rules, many subliminal rules,
so it is hard to break out of this but I am working on it. :)
Perhaps the children's inability to share was not due to the parents
need to buy every toy under the sun (that's only a slight exaggeration),
to not allow the child's father to eat the snacks that were purchased
just for the child (because the child would get mad)... Oh the list goes
on. <g>
I do not mean to offend anyone and hopefully I have not. If I have, I
apologize.
How do you deal with others? Strangers? For instance, if your child
becomes friends with someone you don't know and wants to go out with
this person? Or, with the conversation about dating ---what if the boy
is someone *you* don't know? Would you ask your daughter to have him
visit to get to know him better? (Ok, that sounds like a stupid question
but this is very new to me.) When I first read the dating thread my
first thought was, "I could never allow my 12, 13, 14 year-old daughter
to go out on a date." Then as I read further I realized that the
circumstances were different then what were going through my mind, and
then I realized I was thinking like my mother. She was very strict and I
wasn't allowed to go anywhere usually. A friend's house after school,
when I was older ---junior high on up---as long as I was home by supper
time (5:00). My brother was allowed to go back out after dinner and I
was not. I was 5 years older than him. So at 15 I was sitting in the
house and he,a t age 10, was running around with friends. Her reasons
were because I was a girl and I could get pregnant.
Of course I took that to mean that she didn't trust *me*, although she
said it was the rest of the world she didn't trust. At 18, I finally
broke free of her control and the summer after graduation I was sexually
assaulted by my boyfriend's friend. So what did that tell me? That she
was right? That the world wasn't to be trusted? I don't want to send
those "rules" to Madison, for her to become jaded.
I thank everyone for answering my newbie questions. I really do
appreciate all the insight and experience you can offer. I so want this
life for my family.
Jenn :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> One can only be "lenient" in the presence of rules.Yes, I guess that did tell a lot about what I believe, or have learned
> One can only OVERcompensate when the observer thinks it was more than
> necessary.
>
> When you tell us what you've seen you accidentally tell us part of
> what you
> believe. <g>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
to believe and haven't truly figured out what *I* believe yet. I have
had one close and one semi-close friendship with a parent who, in my
eyes, overcompensates, and *I*, and my daughter, have had a hard time
"dealing" with the child. What I call overcompensating is a parent who
can not go to a store for a gallon of milk without also purchasing a toy
for the child, a parent who will spend $300 on one child for Christmas
and have to borrow money to pay their electricity. It was actually the
parent that I knew quite well with whom I thought of the word
"overcompensating" because she herself stated that she wondered if she
did all she did because her own mother did very little. I am trying to
not be judgmental so I realize labels aren't "correct". I grew up in an
overly critical household filled with many rules, many subliminal rules,
so it is hard to break out of this but I am working on it. :)
Perhaps the children's inability to share was not due to the parents
need to buy every toy under the sun (that's only a slight exaggeration),
to not allow the child's father to eat the snacks that were purchased
just for the child (because the child would get mad)... Oh the list goes
on. <g>
I do not mean to offend anyone and hopefully I have not. If I have, I
apologize.
How do you deal with others? Strangers? For instance, if your child
becomes friends with someone you don't know and wants to go out with
this person? Or, with the conversation about dating ---what if the boy
is someone *you* don't know? Would you ask your daughter to have him
visit to get to know him better? (Ok, that sounds like a stupid question
but this is very new to me.) When I first read the dating thread my
first thought was, "I could never allow my 12, 13, 14 year-old daughter
to go out on a date." Then as I read further I realized that the
circumstances were different then what were going through my mind, and
then I realized I was thinking like my mother. She was very strict and I
wasn't allowed to go anywhere usually. A friend's house after school,
when I was older ---junior high on up---as long as I was home by supper
time (5:00). My brother was allowed to go back out after dinner and I
was not. I was 5 years older than him. So at 15 I was sitting in the
house and he,a t age 10, was running around with friends. Her reasons
were because I was a girl and I could get pregnant.
Of course I took that to mean that she didn't trust *me*, although she
said it was the rest of the world she didn't trust. At 18, I finally
broke free of her control and the summer after graduation I was sexually
assaulted by my boyfriend's friend. So what did that tell me? That she
was right? That the world wasn't to be trusted? I don't want to send
those "rules" to Madison, for her to become jaded.
I thank everyone for answering my newbie questions. I really do
appreciate all the insight and experience you can offer. I so want this
life for my family.
Jenn :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/23/05 9:04:34 PM, jfischetto@... writes:
uncomfortable, unfashionable, and wearing out. Because of that I offer to
buy my kids shoes lots, and I feel happy when they have four or six pairs of
useable shoes, and they have choices of what to wear. If their shoes get
uncomfortable, if they're good I encourage them to give them to the thrift store; if
they're holey, I say "throw them away."
The "compensation" is inside of me. I am giving them what I didn't have.
I don't buy $60 pairs of shoes. They're usually from PayLess or WalMart,
though I will offer to get nicer shoes and the kids usually decline because their
feet are growing and they're budget conscious kids, and not needy, grasping
kids.
Grasping and neediness come from lack and need. Neediness is real. When
someone is needy or doesn't want to share, there is something that child is
lacking to feel safe and secure.
I have very current answers to some of your questions. Holly's off camping
in the mountains where it's expected to rain. She's with her dad a few
hundred medievalists. Friday morning she walked to the grocery store in the new
shoes she had gotten to take to the event. She had sandals for daytime
(it's a fern meadow, the main campground), and wanted something waterproof for
nighttime. She got garden clogs with backs, basically rainboots. So she wore
them to walk to the store, and when she got back she said she didn't think
socks would fit in them and be comfortable, and I offered to take her to get
something else.
We went to PayLess and she got a pair of suede boots lined with plush. They
won't stay dry in serious rain, but they'll be warm if she stays in a tent or
under a rainfly and out of water. And she got a $5 pair of cloth Mary Janes
because for Kirby's birthday there's a movie-character theme and she's going
as Addie from Paper Moon. She already got used overalls for $4.
My mom wouldn't have done ANY of that for me. Holly knows that, but I don't
drone on about it. I make the offer, she accepts or not. She makes good
use of the clothes she has and wears them in artsy rearrangements and really
likes having clothes and shoes. I like her having clothes and shoes. The
compensation is for my own soul and spirit.
-=-How do you deal with others? Strangers? For instance, if your child
becomes friends with someone you don't know and wants to go out with
this person?-=-
This happened yesterday for the first time.
Marty is 16 and drives. He said he was going to go thrift-store shopping
with... and he named a name I had never heard. A teenaged girl he met a week
ago through friends, and hung around with (in a group) for a few hours the day
after they met. He asked her to go shopping with him to get costume parts.
He's wanting to be Dr. Strangelove. I asked him a couple of questions
about her, but y'know, they were going to thriftstores, not a weekend ski trip.
If he went to school he would have access to hundreds of people I had never
met. It's not that big a deal. He meets people through hobbies or friends.
-=- Or, with the conversation about dating ---what if the boy
is someone *you* don't know? Would you ask your daughter to have him
visit to get to know him better?-=-
I used to think I would, but Holly (13) is SO used to making her own decisi
ons for real reasons, and carefully and for GOOD reasons, that if Holly trusted
the guy that would mean something. And I can't really imagine that she
wouldn't get a second opinion if she was undecided about him, or stay in groups
until she knew him better.
-=- At 18, I finally
broke free of her control and the summer after graduation I was sexually
assaulted by my boyfriend's friend. So what did that tell me? That she
was right? That the world wasn't to be trusted?-=-
Maybe you needed more practice at a younger age, and real reasons, not vague
"you could get pregnant" reasons. Real advice in the moment, like what to
do or say if you felt uncomfortable.
Holly left the country for a month recently. She was with a family we've
known since she was little, but she wasn't with them at every moment, and one
night she went back to HesFes, the big homeschooling campout, while the rest
stayed at the cottage a couple of blocks away, and she was out at night in the
dark with boys swinging on a rope swing. It didn't make me nervous. She's
not sneaky, she's talkative, she has a strong personality, she's not desperate
for attention, she's not needy because we give her lots of attention,
information, opportunities, and choices.
There are two things I've written that are directly about what you're
wondering, and both are about the positive effects of respecting children:
http://sandadodd.com/spoiled
http://sandradodd.com/respect
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Perhaps the children's inability to share was not due to the parentsWhen I was little I usually only had one pair of shoes, and they were often
> need to buy every toy under the sun (that's only a slight exaggeration),
> to not allow the child's father to eat the snacks that were purchased
> just for the child (because the child would get mad)... Oh the list goes
> on. <g>
>
uncomfortable, unfashionable, and wearing out. Because of that I offer to
buy my kids shoes lots, and I feel happy when they have four or six pairs of
useable shoes, and they have choices of what to wear. If their shoes get
uncomfortable, if they're good I encourage them to give them to the thrift store; if
they're holey, I say "throw them away."
The "compensation" is inside of me. I am giving them what I didn't have.
I don't buy $60 pairs of shoes. They're usually from PayLess or WalMart,
though I will offer to get nicer shoes and the kids usually decline because their
feet are growing and they're budget conscious kids, and not needy, grasping
kids.
Grasping and neediness come from lack and need. Neediness is real. When
someone is needy or doesn't want to share, there is something that child is
lacking to feel safe and secure.
I have very current answers to some of your questions. Holly's off camping
in the mountains where it's expected to rain. She's with her dad a few
hundred medievalists. Friday morning she walked to the grocery store in the new
shoes she had gotten to take to the event. She had sandals for daytime
(it's a fern meadow, the main campground), and wanted something waterproof for
nighttime. She got garden clogs with backs, basically rainboots. So she wore
them to walk to the store, and when she got back she said she didn't think
socks would fit in them and be comfortable, and I offered to take her to get
something else.
We went to PayLess and she got a pair of suede boots lined with plush. They
won't stay dry in serious rain, but they'll be warm if she stays in a tent or
under a rainfly and out of water. And she got a $5 pair of cloth Mary Janes
because for Kirby's birthday there's a movie-character theme and she's going
as Addie from Paper Moon. She already got used overalls for $4.
My mom wouldn't have done ANY of that for me. Holly knows that, but I don't
drone on about it. I make the offer, she accepts or not. She makes good
use of the clothes she has and wears them in artsy rearrangements and really
likes having clothes and shoes. I like her having clothes and shoes. The
compensation is for my own soul and spirit.
-=-How do you deal with others? Strangers? For instance, if your child
becomes friends with someone you don't know and wants to go out with
this person?-=-
This happened yesterday for the first time.
Marty is 16 and drives. He said he was going to go thrift-store shopping
with... and he named a name I had never heard. A teenaged girl he met a week
ago through friends, and hung around with (in a group) for a few hours the day
after they met. He asked her to go shopping with him to get costume parts.
He's wanting to be Dr. Strangelove. I asked him a couple of questions
about her, but y'know, they were going to thriftstores, not a weekend ski trip.
If he went to school he would have access to hundreds of people I had never
met. It's not that big a deal. He meets people through hobbies or friends.
-=- Or, with the conversation about dating ---what if the boy
is someone *you* don't know? Would you ask your daughter to have him
visit to get to know him better?-=-
I used to think I would, but Holly (13) is SO used to making her own decisi
ons for real reasons, and carefully and for GOOD reasons, that if Holly trusted
the guy that would mean something. And I can't really imagine that she
wouldn't get a second opinion if she was undecided about him, or stay in groups
until she knew him better.
-=- At 18, I finally
broke free of her control and the summer after graduation I was sexually
assaulted by my boyfriend's friend. So what did that tell me? That she
was right? That the world wasn't to be trusted?-=-
Maybe you needed more practice at a younger age, and real reasons, not vague
"you could get pregnant" reasons. Real advice in the moment, like what to
do or say if you felt uncomfortable.
Holly left the country for a month recently. She was with a family we've
known since she was little, but she wasn't with them at every moment, and one
night she went back to HesFes, the big homeschooling campout, while the rest
stayed at the cottage a couple of blocks away, and she was out at night in the
dark with boys swinging on a rope swing. It didn't make me nervous. She's
not sneaky, she's talkative, she has a strong personality, she's not desperate
for attention, she's not needy because we give her lots of attention,
information, opportunities, and choices.
There are two things I've written that are directly about what you're
wondering, and both are about the positive effects of respecting children:
http://sandadodd.com/spoiled
http://sandradodd.com/respect
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Jenn <jfischetto@...>
This raises a, perhaps ignorant, question. I have never met any
unschoolers, parents or children, and just recently even heard of the
term, so if my question sounds ridiculous please forgive. :)
-=-=-=-=-
The conference would be a big help in actually SEEING what we're
talking about---if you can make it.
-==-=-=-=-
I have read about all the wonderful ways that children are respected,
by
their unschooling families, and the freedoms they are given to know
what
is in their interests, etc. I was wondering what type, if any, limits
are there ---do y'all set? What do you not approve of? Perhaps there is
nothing and I am still not seeing everything in the same way.
-==-=-=-
I can't think of any limits.....I try to let them know they are are
limitless! <g> That they can achieve *any*thing!
I don't approve of abuse or neglect or unkindness. But those are things
I never, if ever, see in my children.
I think empathy and honesty are pretty important.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: Jenn <jfischetto@...>
This raises a, perhaps ignorant, question. I have never met any
unschoolers, parents or children, and just recently even heard of the
term, so if my question sounds ridiculous please forgive. :)
-=-=-=-=-
The conference would be a big help in actually SEEING what we're
talking about---if you can make it.
-==-=-=-=-
I have read about all the wonderful ways that children are respected,
by
their unschooling families, and the freedoms they are given to know
what
is in their interests, etc. I was wondering what type, if any, limits
are there ---do y'all set? What do you not approve of? Perhaps there is
nothing and I am still not seeing everything in the same way.
-==-=-=-
I can't think of any limits.....I try to let them know they are are
limitless! <g> That they can achieve *any*thing!
I don't approve of abuse or neglect or unkindness. But those are things
I never, if ever, see in my children.
I think empathy and honesty are pretty important.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[email protected]
> I was wondering what type, if any, limitsThe way this is worded is interesting. "Perhaps there is nothing" meaning
> are there ---do y'all set? What do you not approve of? Perhaps there is
> nothing and I am still not seeing everything in the same way.
>
limits?
Or meaning perhaps there is nothing an unschooler would not approve of?
Everyone has preferences and concerns and worries and when one lives with a
roommate one finds out pretty quickly which are the really crucial things for
that person (maybe taking the trash out, maybe all the doors and windows being
locked, maybe making sure the refrigerator is clean, maybe not feeding the dog
in any human plates).
The difference between our relationships with our children (now teens) and
most of our friends' is that we deal honestly with our children as we would
other adults. We don't say no arbitrarily. We don't tell them to leave us
alone because we're adults and we're busy. I notice it most on Tuesday nights
when others come to sing with us. Keith and I have four to six other adults
most childless, one with two younger children quite controlled) over to sing,
and the kids will come in to show us something or ask something, and it's a
snapsot of the relationship. Two weeks ago Marty came and asked if he could
go to Edgewood, and we discussed which car and whether he needed gas, and I
chucked him my charge card. I suggested maybe he was actually meaning Stanley
(a town further away that Edgewood, both over half an hour away over the
mountains). He allowed that yeah, he might end up in Stanley. He ended up
picking one person up in Edgewood to visit in Stanley with him, and they all
ended up in Glorieta (NOT near) at a fourth friend's house.
Last night Marty and Kirby got back rustling bags from thrift stores and I
called down "What'd you get?" (between songs) and Marty came and showed us a
couple of things he got for Kirby's birthday party costume. He offered to pay
for Kirby's costume, as his birthday gift. Kirby's going as Casey Jones, from
the first Ninja Turtle movie. He had spent $40 on costume parts (including
bike gloves that Marty will keep for skateboarding later).
The theme is movie characters. Holly's going as Addie from Paper Moon;
Marty as Dr. Strangelove; Kirby as Casey Jones with all his sports equipment as
weapons against bad guys.
Whatever the dire predictions of those who think we don't know what we're
doing, the kids are good and generous, direct and interesting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]