m59z85

OK, after the confrontation I wrote about at the end of Part 2 (a
BIG Thank You to those who are reading these long posts. This is
helping me tremendously to write about it and try to be objective--
although I fail!) During Noelle's visit I sometimes felt like an
observer watching school vs. unschool, distrust vs. trust, no choice
vs. choice.

After I told Noelle she needed to go home our conversation continued.

Noelle: You're the one who wanted me to come.

Me: Wait a minute. You're Mom set this up and she said you wanted
to come.

Noelle: I didn't want to come and I told my parents that.

Me: You told them you didn't want to come and they made you anyway?

Noelle: Yes, I told them I didn't want to come and they said I had
to. Then I asked if I could come for only a week and they said no
to that, too. When my Dad called on Sunday I asked if I could come
home and they said no.

(Note: During the 10 days that Noelle was with us. Her Dad called
her once and her mother not at all. Even after she told them she
was miserable and wanted to come home nobody bothered to tell me or
my husband and they also didn't call to check on her. I am still
saddened and amazed by this.)

Me: Well, I will call them and we will get you home.

Noelle: They won't let me.

Me: They will have no choice. I can make that happen for you.

Noelle: No, I'll get in trouble for stressing you out. I can't be
stressing you out that much. (I know you can't read tone or emotion
in these words but if you can imagine a 14 year old girl in tears
and yelling in a panicky voice.)

Me: I won't make it about me it will be about you. I'll tell them
you're unhappy here and you want to come home.

Noelle: That won't work with them.

Me: What do you want me to do?

Noelle: I don't know what I want. (She runs upstairs to her room.)

I was shocked and sad and confused and I felt tremendous sympathy
for this poor child who had no choice and was trying to get what she
needed--which was to go home. At the same time I was furious with
her parents for sending her here under false pretenses and for not
letting us know what was going on.

My daughters Sarah (6) and Olivia (3.5) witnessed this exchange. I
thought it might upset them and confuse them but after Noelle ran
upstairs they continued with their breakfasts happy as little larks,
talking and laughing. They asked me if Noelle was going home. I
told them yes in a day or two. They seemed relieved. Sarah
said, "I'm glad she is going, Mommy. She is rude to you."

We got ready to go to Bible School and went out to the car. I was
helping the girls in their seats when Noelle came out the front
door, crying. I put my arms around her and said, "I'm sorry. I
didn't mean to hurt your feelings."

Noelle was sobbing and she said, "You think that I think you're a
bad mother. I don't think that. I think you're a good mother.
It's just that Sarah and Olivia get to do whatever they want and I
never get to do anything I want and it is so hard for me to be
around that."

I put my arms around her again and told her that when we started
parenting differently and decided that choice was better than no
choice that I had those feelings, too, because I had little or no
choice when I was growing up.

We got in the car and I tried to talk with her more about what she
had just said. (What a revelation!) But she took out her iPod and
put the earphones in--ending any conversation we could have had.

After Bible School Noelle wanted to stay on at the church until
9pm. She was going to watch a "Star Wars" marathon and eat pizza
with a group of kids her age. I was relieved that she had something
she wanted to do and that we would have a break from her as well.

When I got home I called Noelle's Dad, my brother-in-law.

Me: This is Linda

BIL: Hi, how's it going?

Me: Not well, Noelle is very unhappy here and wants to come home.

BIL: I'm not surprised. She wasn't too happy when she left.

Me: And you sent her anyway?

BIL: (Pause . . .) We thought she'd get over it.

Me: You need to think about listening to her and giving her what
she wants.

BIL: Who gets a life like that?

Me: A kid should.

BIL: Hmpf

Me: A kid should at least get a taste of it so she knows what to
shoot for as an adult.

BIL: I'll have her mother call you.

Me: You need to change her flight. She wants to come home as soon
as possible.

BIL: I'll have her mother call you. (Code for: I'm not doing a
&%#$% thing.) (I got a feeling for what Noelle
is dealing with.)

I was so angry with I got off of the phone. This poor obnoxious kid
who doesn't read a book unless forced and is the biggest pain in the
you-know-what, well, you can just see where this comes from. At
that moment I felt so grateful that I can stay home with my children
and keep them with me and not in school.

End of Part 3: Next Noelle's mother calls, we send Noelle home, and
a wrap-up of Noelle's comments about homeschooling (which I found
amazing). Thank you to all the hardy souls who have read to the end!

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/19/2005 7:37:55 AM Central Standard Time,
maggioncalda@... writes:

Noelle was sobbing and she said, "You think that I think you're a
bad mother. I don't think that. I think you're a good mother.
It's just that Sarah and Olivia get to do whatever they want and I
never get to do anything I want and it is so hard for me to be
around that."



~~~

I kept hoping that she decided to stay with you, that she chilled out, and
that she got to do whatever she wanted for the rest of the time. That she
didn't feel like she "had to" do anything else ever, at least when she was with
you. That your house would be a vacation from that.

My instinct would be for her to stay. But then, I'm not the one listening
to her snide remarks.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

m59z85

> My instinct would be for her to stay.



I wanted that, too. I think that's why it took so long for me to
figure out what was going on. I just kept thinking that if I
treated her with an unschool attitude that she would have a vacation
from being forced to do things and she would come around. There
were a few moments like that but I think what it boiled down to was
that she wanted her parents to listen to her and she wanted them to
want her at home. That's my guess.

A few "good" examples:

We left her with Sarah for a morning and it was really getting hot
outside and we had the back door open. Before I left I told her
that if they got hot they could close the door and turn the air
conditioner on. I showed her where the thermostat was and told her
to make herself comfortable--whatever temp that might be. She
said, "Wow, at my house only my Dad gets to touch the thermostat."

Also, we subscribe to Netflix and Noelle wants a subscription but
doesn't have one. I told her to go on mine and pick out whatever
she wanted for the next movie. She told me she had it narrowed down
to three and told me what they were--I think she expected me to tell
her she couldn't watch them. I said, well, whatever you want and
she chose "Lost in Translation" and got it and watched it.

There were good moments but I was overwhelmed by her comments and
coercive energy by the 7th day.

Linda

jparm02

--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 7/19/2005 7:37:55 AM Central Standard Time,
> maggioncalda@c... writes:
>
> Noelle was sobbing and she said, "You think that I think you're a
> bad mother. I don't think that. I think you're a good mother.
> It's just that Sarah and Olivia get to do whatever they want and
I
> never get to do anything I want and it is so hard for me to be
> around that."
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> I kept hoping that she decided to stay with you, that she chilled
out, and
> that she got to do whatever she wanted for the rest of the time.
That she
> didn't feel like she "had to" do anything else ever, at least when
she was with
> you. That your house would be a vacation from that.
>
> My instinct would be for her to stay. But then, I'm not the one
listening
> to her snide remarks.
>
> Karen
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was thinking that of course she would have to go home. For how
much she has these little revelations of her life and her cousins'
life, she can't acknowledge them too deeply, because she has to go
back to life with her parents, where her voice doesn't count. The
beauty of her cousins life is too painful for her.

Thank you, Linda, for writing this out...I jumped out of bed this
morning anticipating installment #3.

~Jill P. in Colo.

Ellen

Jill P. wrote:
> I was thinking that of course she would have to go home. For how
> much she has these little revelations of her life and her cousins'
> life, she can't acknowledge them too deeply, because she has to go
> back to life with her parents, where her voice doesn't count. The
> beauty of her cousins life is too painful for her.

My mom used to say that it wasn't fair for people to take in the "Fresh Air"
kids from the inner cities in the summer because they would just have to
return to the city, and they would be bummed about what they didn't have.

Yet, I know several adults who, when they lived in NYC as children growing
up in single-parent families living in poverty, had tiny little vacations
(like the "Fresh Air" program) in other areas of NYS, which sparked the
desire to someday move out of the city, and they did.

My own experiences, coming from a family in which parents parented in a way
that bordered on abuse, are similar. When I was a teen, I was asked to go on
vacation with a family I regularly babysat for, so that the parents would
have a built-in babysitter along with them. This family never hit their
kids, and they spoke to them in respectful ways. Working with this family
and vacationing with them was my first experience with other-parenting.
Then, when I was in college, a family on a college bulletin board offered
room/board to a college student for the same reason --- to have a built-in
babysitter in the house. The parents liked to go out without much planning,
and, if I was there and wasn't planning to go out, they would ask if it
would work for me to hang with the kids while they were out. They, too, did
not hit their kids, and they also prioritized respectful relationships with
their kids. These two experiences set up what I wanted to have with any
children I might ever have. I knew I didn't want the seat-of-the-pants
powering-over parenting that was standard in my family. I wanted to
prioritize the long-term relationship with my kids.

Linda, I am delighted to read your saga --- and I'm sure there are many
others here reading that haven't told you about the sparkle that your saga
has put into their days. I also want to tell you not to underestimate the
power of the simple conversations and example you've set. Now, Noelle has a
clue that things can be different; that's a lot.

-Ellen

Su Penn

I am technically too new a subscriber to post, and I will not be
offended if this isn't forwarded to the list. but Ellen wrote:

>
> My own experiences, coming from a family in which parents parented in
> a way
> that bordered on abuse, are similar. When I was a teen, I was asked
> to go on
> vacation with a family I regularly babysat for,....
> These two experiences set up what I wanted to have with any
> children I might ever have.

And I want to respond to that as well. I also came from a family that
was borderline-abusive in those ways that pass for normal parenting in
our culture. It is amazing to me that I have been able to enter into a
12-year, healthy and happy relationship, and raise my young children
with respect, because I certainly didn't learn any of that at home. A
friend who suffered horrific abuse as a child and I have talked about
what makes it possible for some kids to do things so very differently
from how they were raised, and we think one important piece is that
something happens for them (as happened for us) that allows them to
imagine another possibility. For me, I remember a friend I loved
visiting because I could tell when I was in her house that her parents
liked each other and liked her. Knowing parents who seemed to like
their kids made my relationship with my parents more painful, but it
also offered me a vision of something else I might have.

My badly-abused friend remembers that when she was five or six, she was
crying in a public place--she can't remember why--and a strange woman
took her into her arms and held her until she stopped crying and for a
long time after. She had never been held like that by her mother, or by
anyone else, and that feeling of sinking into the body of a loving
adult was revelatory for her. She remembered it for the rest of her
childhood. That one moment became a kind of talisman for her, and an
image of love that she consciously went looking for once she was out on
her own in the world.

Nicole's visit to a different kind of family may make her homelife more
painful for awhile. It may also stay with her and open the possibility
of eventual transformation for her. It may be a life-changing gift that
she has been given. We can certainly hope so.

Su in mid-Michigan, mom of ds 4 and ds 16 mos.

arcarpenter2003

--- In [email protected], "m59z85"
<maggioncalda@c...> wrote:
==We got in the car and I tried to talk with her more about what she
> had just said. (What a revelation!) But she took out her iPod and
> put the earphones in--ending any conversation we could have had.==

But if you were on your way to a public place, she probably needed to
soothe herself and get herself together so she could function there --
not stir everything up more so that she'd be feeling even more
unhinged and puffy-eyed as she arrived. KWIM?

What a compelling story so far -- thanks for writing all this out.

Peace,
Amy

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Su Penn <pennsu@...>


My badly-abused friend remembers that when she was five or six, she was
crying in a public place--she can't remember why--and a strange woman
took her into her arms and held her until she stopped crying and for a
long time after. She had never been held like that by her mother, or by
anyone else, and that feeling of sinking into the body of a loving
adult was revelatory for her. She remembered it for the rest of her
childhood. That one moment became a kind of talisman for her, and an
image of love that she consciously went looking for once she was out on
her own in the world.

-=-=-=-=-=-

That is so sad.

And sweet.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org

K Krejci

Something else that sprang to mind for me was your
mention that Noelle is schooled. I know it was true
for me (and maybe for her as well) that school was
almost the only place I felt any comfort, safety or
acceptance. It sure wasn't happening at home.

So we get used to non-acceptance from our family
members and throw ourselves in conditional acceptance
areas (like school or work or maybe even gangs?)
because it's better than nothing. Some of us will
spend the rest of our lives trying to get used to
people who DO love us thoroughly, no strings attached
if you will, because we're so accustomed to having to
perform for positive attention.

I hope Noelle finds those special moments that help
her feel loved and then more special moments that
teach her she has value as an individual.

Kathy

It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com

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Pam Sorooshian

On Jul 19, 2005, at 6:53 AM, Ellen wrote:

> powering-over parenting

POP

Wow.

WHAT a meaning-filled expression, huh?

-pam

Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley

> Linda, I am delighted to read your saga --- and I'm sure there are many
> others here reading that haven't told you about the sparkle that your saga
> has put into their days.

I could picture it all quite vividly. You are a very clear writer. If
the story had been a television series, I would have been on the edge of
my seat waiting impatiently for the next week. Please keep writing and
please update us on Noelle. I really feel for her. I do understand why
it was best for you and your family to send her home. I went through a
very similar saga with my younger (10 years younger) sister years ago.
We finally cut her out of our lives completely due to the harmful nature
of her behavior toward us. I can only hope that our brief example of
living is helping her to be a better parent herself (she is a mother
now) than she would have been without seeing a little of how we live.

-Lisa in AZ

m59z85

--->
> I could picture it all quite vividly. You are a very clear
writer. If
> the story had been a television series, I would have been on the
edge of
> my seat waiting impatiently for the next week. Please keep
writing and
> please update us on Noelle. I really feel for her.


Lisa, thank you so much for your kind words. I posted an update
today and a few of the homeschool/unschool comments that Noelle made
while here with us.


I went through a
> very similar saga with my younger (10 years younger) sister years
ago.
> We finally cut her out of our lives completely due to the harmful
nature
> of her behavior toward us. I can only hope that our brief example
of
> living is helping her to be a better parent herself (she is a
mother
> now) than she would have been without seeing a little of how we
live.

Then you know what it was like! Sometimes, for the well-being of
your family you just can't be around certain family members. Our
family seemed to need to "detox" (for lack of a better word!) for
several days after Noelle went home. And my 6 year old is suddently
acting like a 14 year old--but it will pass, I hope!

Linda in Virgina