Re: effects of how children are raised
Krisula Moyer
I think comparing your brave, self sacrificing son to John Hinckley is not
a useful exercise. The more useful comparison, it seems to me, are where
the similarities are numerous so that the difference (here unschooling) has
more obvious causality. Or, if you want to think of it another way, how
could John Hinckley's life been different (assuming you knew him really
well) if he had been raised with more kindness, more attachment more
understanding than he got? Could his pathology have been addressed? Who
knows. But I think I know in the case of my own children that if they
were raised in an unkind, uncaring, environment instead of the one I try to
provide for them they would be more frustrated, less happy, they would have
more self doubt than they presently have. I feel certain that they are
better off and better people because of this. If I didn't I might be
standing in line for the most convenient behaviorist style quick fix
parenting I could find. I'd put them to bed on a schedule, get rid of them
at school and daycare and get on with my own interests , hobbies, or
profession.
How we raise them does matter. It matters a lot. You only need to look at
the kids in your personal experience to find ones that would be so much
happier if they didn't have to go to school, or if they had parents who
listened to them instead of making decisions for and about them. Of course
it matters. But as in most things it's complex. The longer I parent the
more I feel that at it's core, it's the love, kindness and respect that
makes the difference. AP and unschooling are an expression of those things
but when I think of the really great kids I've known who come from more
traditional families, those qualities are still core. Too simplistic, I
know, but still important. All kids need these things and some do a lot
with precious little but they would still do better with more.
OK I guess everyone can tell I'm on a midnight rant. %) Tomorrow I'll read
this in the digest and blush.
Blessings,
Krisula
a useful exercise. The more useful comparison, it seems to me, are where
the similarities are numerous so that the difference (here unschooling) has
more obvious causality. Or, if you want to think of it another way, how
could John Hinckley's life been different (assuming you knew him really
well) if he had been raised with more kindness, more attachment more
understanding than he got? Could his pathology have been addressed? Who
knows. But I think I know in the case of my own children that if they
were raised in an unkind, uncaring, environment instead of the one I try to
provide for them they would be more frustrated, less happy, they would have
more self doubt than they presently have. I feel certain that they are
better off and better people because of this. If I didn't I might be
standing in line for the most convenient behaviorist style quick fix
parenting I could find. I'd put them to bed on a schedule, get rid of them
at school and daycare and get on with my own interests , hobbies, or
profession.
How we raise them does matter. It matters a lot. You only need to look at
the kids in your personal experience to find ones that would be so much
happier if they didn't have to go to school, or if they had parents who
listened to them instead of making decisions for and about them. Of course
it matters. But as in most things it's complex. The longer I parent the
more I feel that at it's core, it's the love, kindness and respect that
makes the difference. AP and unschooling are an expression of those things
but when I think of the really great kids I've known who come from more
traditional families, those qualities are still core. Too simplistic, I
know, but still important. All kids need these things and some do a lot
with precious little but they would still do better with more.
OK I guess everyone can tell I'm on a midnight rant. %) Tomorrow I'll read
this in the digest and blush.
Blessings,
Krisula
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/15/05 1:12:25 AM, krisula@... writes:
Makes me think of dogs. I don't see as much meanness toward dogs as I did
when I was younger, which is wonderful. But I've known dogs that could've
been great and happy be yelled at (and worse) and they get scared and sad and
confused and become more irritating to their owners and dangerous to others.
Please just think the details of worst-dog-treatment stories and don't tell
them here. I bet we all have visions in our minds we wish we could forget, in
that area, but to use dogs as a "remember the nicest dogs you've known and
the skittiest?" takes it out of the way more complex realm of children growing
up with cultural/religous/school/birthorder/environmental factors.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The longer I parent theHey, that was nothing to blush at.
> more I feel that at it's core, it's the love, kindness and respect that
> makes the difference.
>
Makes me think of dogs. I don't see as much meanness toward dogs as I did
when I was younger, which is wonderful. But I've known dogs that could've
been great and happy be yelled at (and worse) and they get scared and sad and
confused and become more irritating to their owners and dangerous to others.
Please just think the details of worst-dog-treatment stories and don't tell
them here. I bet we all have visions in our minds we wish we could forget, in
that area, but to use dogs as a "remember the nicest dogs you've known and
the skittiest?" takes it out of the way more complex realm of children growing
up with cultural/religous/school/birthorder/environmental factors.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alan Marshall
>>>>How we raise them does matter. It matters a lot.up with cultural/religous/school/birthorder/environmental factors
>>> (snip)...takes it out of the way more complex realm of children growing
To me, the influence of genetics, sibling position, etc. make mindful parenting that much more important - it is the part of the equation that I can control. And I agree, I think it makes a huge difference. I think societal ills could be improved and the Hinckleys and Dahmers of the world largely prevented if our culture could move toward better parenting. Not that there are not other factors and influences, but you can profoundly affect the multi-generational disease processes of your family of origin. This can be seen easily with physical symptoms - a genetic tendency for heart disease or cancer can be mitigated by changes in diet, lifestyle, stress reduction (perhaps an even bigger factor than previously thought) etc.
My thinking has been influenced by Bowen Theory - family systems theory - (www.thebowencenter.org/pages/theory.html) - which views birth order, family of origin etc. to have a large influence for good or ill on our emotional life. But far from being fatalistic, Bowen therapists train people to intentionally influence and improve the health of the family system. This is done primarily through self-differentiation. Mindful parenting could be seen as a form of self-differentiation. Parenting focused not on how children behave, but on how I behave.
Alan
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cheryl
Callie:
To me, the influence of genetics, sibling position, etc.
influence as a parent "now" will stretch in to the future, if at all? Is
there an underlying question you're asking, that you haven't fully
recognized?
This discussion brought to mind, for me, my tendency over the years to blame
my parents for my problems... and how difficult it has been to take
responsibility for my problems. Sure I've given my parents credit, as well,
but for this topic, I'm focusing on blame.
As an adult, I have tools, experiences and have sought examples to help me
change, but I struggle with how difficult change is because of the way I was
raised created habits that feel impossible to break, sometimes...basically,
my emotions make the struggle more intense. I mean, if I'm working on
myself, (taking responsibility), yet get frustrated that I can't change,
quicker, I might start to feel angry with my family for having created an
environment that *made* me this way. Yet, stopping my growth-work to feel
angry & blame others is just as unproductive as was the environment my
parents created years ago... and now *I'm* the <responsible> adult! Seeing
it that way helps slap me out of it, dissipate my anger, stop the blaming
and move on.
Something else that comes to mind as I write this is that I don't really
reach out for help from my parents. I'm sad that we are so disconnected, but
have brushed it off as a consequence of *their parenting*. I hope that I
can model a strong sense of self-awareness, compassion, strength, and wisdom
so that my daugther will choose to stay connected to me, no matter what age
she is, and vice versa. In that way, my sphere of influence directly
reflects a connection to my daughter, now & always. Perhaps I need to spend
more effort reconnecting to my parents, if not only as a model for my
daughter, but for my own personal growth.
Did I make any points in musings? I think I interpreted your words in this
thread a desire for people to take responsibility for their lives. Yet I am
not sure whether you agree with us that your actions as a parent have a
*lasting* effect on your children, regardless of their ability to be
responsible.
****
Education.is a process of living and not a preparation for future living.
-- John Dewey
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I'm 54 and still trying to get there, still a million yearsAlan:
>away from that. I've blamed my mother, blamed my teachers,
>blamed this, that and the other - and given all the credit
>for the good stuff away as well. From my boys I have
>started to learn to reclaim my self. But I've got a long way to go.
To me, the influence of genetics, sibling position, etc.
>make mindful parenting that much more important - itKaren:
>is the part of the equation that I can control.
>And I agree, I think it makes a huge difference.
>snip<
>Mindful parenting could be seen as a form of
>self-differentiation. Parenting >focused not on
>how children behave, but on how I behave.
>I really haven't been saying that parenting makes noHi, Karen, I'm Cheryl and new, here. I was wondering how far you think your
>difference. I've said that parenting makes a difference
>in the "now", but we can't presume against the future.
>I've been saying that we don't get to claim credit or
> blame for the way our children are, especially after
> they are grown. At least, that's what I think. I
> think about this often.
influence as a parent "now" will stretch in to the future, if at all? Is
there an underlying question you're asking, that you haven't fully
recognized?
This discussion brought to mind, for me, my tendency over the years to blame
my parents for my problems... and how difficult it has been to take
responsibility for my problems. Sure I've given my parents credit, as well,
but for this topic, I'm focusing on blame.
As an adult, I have tools, experiences and have sought examples to help me
change, but I struggle with how difficult change is because of the way I was
raised created habits that feel impossible to break, sometimes...basically,
my emotions make the struggle more intense. I mean, if I'm working on
myself, (taking responsibility), yet get frustrated that I can't change,
quicker, I might start to feel angry with my family for having created an
environment that *made* me this way. Yet, stopping my growth-work to feel
angry & blame others is just as unproductive as was the environment my
parents created years ago... and now *I'm* the <responsible> adult! Seeing
it that way helps slap me out of it, dissipate my anger, stop the blaming
and move on.
Something else that comes to mind as I write this is that I don't really
reach out for help from my parents. I'm sad that we are so disconnected, but
have brushed it off as a consequence of *their parenting*. I hope that I
can model a strong sense of self-awareness, compassion, strength, and wisdom
so that my daugther will choose to stay connected to me, no matter what age
she is, and vice versa. In that way, my sphere of influence directly
reflects a connection to my daughter, now & always. Perhaps I need to spend
more effort reconnecting to my parents, if not only as a model for my
daughter, but for my own personal growth.
Did I make any points in musings? I think I interpreted your words in this
thread a desire for people to take responsibility for their lives. Yet I am
not sure whether you agree with us that your actions as a parent have a
*lasting* effect on your children, regardless of their ability to be
responsible.
****
Education.is a process of living and not a preparation for future living.
-- John Dewey
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/15/2005 7:16:27 PM Central Standard Time,
alanlmarshall@... writes:
To me, the influence of genetics, sibling position, etc. make mindful
parenting that much more important - it is the part of the equation that I can
control. And I agree, I think it makes a huge difference.
~~~
I really haven't been saying that parenting makes no difference. I've said
that parenting makes a difference in the "now", but we can't presume against
the future. I've been saying that we don't get to claim credit or blame for
the way our children are, especially after they are grown. At least, that's
what I think. I think about this often.
And I certainly WASN'T comparing my son to John Hinkley. I was comparing
how their mothers should feel/think/be responsible for what they do.
I'm recovering from a minor surgery in which the doctor found a "stone"
inside my upper lip, and so I'm in a Vicodin haze. This topic may zip by before
I can be coherent again. If that's so, then I'll just enjoy reading the
responses.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
alanlmarshall@... writes:
To me, the influence of genetics, sibling position, etc. make mindful
parenting that much more important - it is the part of the equation that I can
control. And I agree, I think it makes a huge difference.
~~~
I really haven't been saying that parenting makes no difference. I've said
that parenting makes a difference in the "now", but we can't presume against
the future. I've been saying that we don't get to claim credit or blame for
the way our children are, especially after they are grown. At least, that's
what I think. I think about this often.
And I certainly WASN'T comparing my son to John Hinkley. I was comparing
how their mothers should feel/think/be responsible for what they do.
I'm recovering from a minor surgery in which the doctor found a "stone"
inside my upper lip, and so I'm in a Vicodin haze. This topic may zip by before
I can be coherent again. If that's so, then I'll just enjoy reading the
responses.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]