Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] effects of how children are raised (was about a b...
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/2005 10:59:00 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
At what point do we recognize that they are their own persons and what
reflection on the way they were raised, there's no reason to write a book
at
all. There's not even any reason to unschool.
At no point does a parent get the opportunity to "recognize" that nothing
they did while their children were growing up affected what they did as
adults or
how they did it.
Why would one even want that?
~~~
This is the deal. It's an issue that confuses me. I don't really think that
parenting is not a factor at all. It's just one of many.
John Hinkley's mother can't take any responsiblity for what her crazy son
did. There may have been things she could have done to mitigate his craziness.
But she can't predict the future. Who can? What good does it do for her
to sit around and say, "If only I'd done x..."
When I hear about my son saving the life of a man whose horse and carriage
ran under the path of a streetcar in Memphis a few weeks ago, do I get to pat
myself on the back because I raised him well? No. I didn't do anything to
make him like that or that would predict that he would be able to act swiftly
and surely in an emergency situation. It's all on him.
I don't want to take credit for the way my children turned out. Although I
would feel guilty if my son did something like John Hinkley, I can't be
blamed. It's a dichotomy that I can't reconcile in my mind.
I give my kids a happy and peaceful home. I can't predict the outcome. So,
the day to day, the now, is what matters. Unschooling doesn't guarantee any
sort of result, except peace and happiness today. Unschooling did not mold
my son into a lifesaver. Not unschooling did not mold John Hinkley into a
crazy person.
So what does?
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
At what point do we recognize that they are their own persons and what
> theyWell if that's so, and parenting is not a factor and what they do has no
> do has absolutely NO reflection on us or the way they were raised? Do we
> get
> that opportunity?
>
reflection on the way they were raised, there's no reason to write a book
at
all. There's not even any reason to unschool.
At no point does a parent get the opportunity to "recognize" that nothing
they did while their children were growing up affected what they did as
adults or
how they did it.
Why would one even want that?
~~~
This is the deal. It's an issue that confuses me. I don't really think that
parenting is not a factor at all. It's just one of many.
John Hinkley's mother can't take any responsiblity for what her crazy son
did. There may have been things she could have done to mitigate his craziness.
But she can't predict the future. Who can? What good does it do for her
to sit around and say, "If only I'd done x..."
When I hear about my son saving the life of a man whose horse and carriage
ran under the path of a streetcar in Memphis a few weeks ago, do I get to pat
myself on the back because I raised him well? No. I didn't do anything to
make him like that or that would predict that he would be able to act swiftly
and surely in an emergency situation. It's all on him.
I don't want to take credit for the way my children turned out. Although I
would feel guilty if my son did something like John Hinkley, I can't be
blamed. It's a dichotomy that I can't reconcile in my mind.
I give my kids a happy and peaceful home. I can't predict the outcome. So,
the day to day, the now, is what matters. Unschooling doesn't guarantee any
sort of result, except peace and happiness today. Unschooling did not mold
my son into a lifesaver. Not unschooling did not mold John Hinkley into a
crazy person.
So what does?
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
nurture "debate" that scads of books, articles, websites, etc have
been wrangling over for years. It's not an either/or situation -
there's a person's built-in, unique "wiring"; there's the life
situations they are in (family of origin, etc); there's
environmental stuff; and probably lots of other things to factor in.
Some studies have indicated (right or wrong I can't say) that
Scandinavians (those actually living IN that area) are more prone to
depression - is it solely due to the long dark winters? does it only
affect those with an internal tendency to depression (some
biochemical thing) who live there? Is there something unique in the
overall social structure? Probably a whole combination mishmash of
things. Someone with a pre-disposition biochemically to depression
might do well in a gentle, caring, "sunny" family and area. Then
again maybe not. Same person in a "dark" area might commit suicide
or homicide. Then again maybe not. Just like someone with a genetic
predisposition to high cholesterol would do well to eat properly but
that still might not keep their cholesterol levels down, they might
need medication too. And even eating right and medication (and
proper health care and such) might not keep them from having a heart
attack at age 35. Then again it could.
> Unschooling doesn't guarantee anydid >not mold
> sort of result, except peace and happiness today. Unschooling
> my son into a lifesaver. Not unschooling did not mold JohnHinkley >into a
> crazy person.You've just jumped into the whole world of the nature vs
>
> So what does?
>
> Karen
>
>
nurture "debate" that scads of books, articles, websites, etc have
been wrangling over for years. It's not an either/or situation -
there's a person's built-in, unique "wiring"; there's the life
situations they are in (family of origin, etc); there's
environmental stuff; and probably lots of other things to factor in.
Some studies have indicated (right or wrong I can't say) that
Scandinavians (those actually living IN that area) are more prone to
depression - is it solely due to the long dark winters? does it only
affect those with an internal tendency to depression (some
biochemical thing) who live there? Is there something unique in the
overall social structure? Probably a whole combination mishmash of
things. Someone with a pre-disposition biochemically to depression
might do well in a gentle, caring, "sunny" family and area. Then
again maybe not. Same person in a "dark" area might commit suicide
or homicide. Then again maybe not. Just like someone with a genetic
predisposition to high cholesterol would do well to eat properly but
that still might not keep their cholesterol levels down, they might
need medication too. And even eating right and medication (and
proper health care and such) might not keep them from having a heart
attack at age 35. Then again it could.
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/05 12:38:14 PM, tuckervill2@... writes:
Was she worshipping movie star magazines instead of paying attention to him?
Was she or anyone she was aiding and abetting making him feel small while
glorifying guns?
Every time I do something or another it affects things. If I just kick back
and watch movies all the time (which I do, in spurts sometimes) it's having
an affect. Maybe it's keeping me from being in a car wreck. Maybe sometimes
it kept me from getting pregnant and having more kids than I could handle. <g>
Maybe sometimes, though, I missed glorious sunsets and chances to go for
walks with Keith and the dog that I'd love to have back someday.
I'm just not into people shucking responsibility for decisions they make.
I have to think unschooling helps kids have better lives, or I've just wasted
a lot of time and energy and could've made several tens of thousands of
dollars working somewhere. It's got to be worth that much.
-=-
When I hear about my son saving the life of a man whose horse and carriage
ran under the path of a streetcar in Memphis a few weeks ago, do I get to
pat
myself on the back because I raised him well? No. I didn't do anything to
make him like that or that would predict that he would be able to act
swiftly
and surely in an emergency situation. It's all on him. -=-
But he's on your team, he's in your family, you get to feel puffed up in
general. Reflected glory. Relief that he didn't just duck and run.
-=- Unschooling did not mold
my son into a lifesaver. Not unschooling did not mold John Hinkley into a
crazy person.
-=-So what does? -=-
Lack of being stunted and twisted?
Genetics.
Opportunity and luck.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> John Hinkley's mother can't take any responsiblity for what her crazy sonIt might kinda depend on what she did.
> did. There may have been things she could have done to mitigate his
> craziness.
> But she can't predict the future. Who can? What good does it do for her
> to sit around and say, "If only I'd done x..."
>
Was she worshipping movie star magazines instead of paying attention to him?
Was she or anyone she was aiding and abetting making him feel small while
glorifying guns?
Every time I do something or another it affects things. If I just kick back
and watch movies all the time (which I do, in spurts sometimes) it's having
an affect. Maybe it's keeping me from being in a car wreck. Maybe sometimes
it kept me from getting pregnant and having more kids than I could handle. <g>
Maybe sometimes, though, I missed glorious sunsets and chances to go for
walks with Keith and the dog that I'd love to have back someday.
I'm just not into people shucking responsibility for decisions they make.
I have to think unschooling helps kids have better lives, or I've just wasted
a lot of time and energy and could've made several tens of thousands of
dollars working somewhere. It's got to be worth that much.
-=-
When I hear about my son saving the life of a man whose horse and carriage
ran under the path of a streetcar in Memphis a few weeks ago, do I get to
pat
myself on the back because I raised him well? No. I didn't do anything to
make him like that or that would predict that he would be able to act
swiftly
and surely in an emergency situation. It's all on him. -=-
But he's on your team, he's in your family, you get to feel puffed up in
general. Reflected glory. Relief that he didn't just duck and run.
-=- Unschooling did not mold
my son into a lifesaver. Not unschooling did not mold John Hinkley into a
crazy person.
-=-So what does? -=-
Lack of being stunted and twisted?
Genetics.
Opportunity and luck.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/2005 4:17:59 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
But he's on your team, he's in your family, you get to feel puffed up in
general. Reflected glory. Relief that he didn't just duck and run.
~~~
And if I get that, what does John Hinkley's mother get? Blame and reflected
disgust? Why should I get to feel relieved if she doesn't have to feel
guilty? Who in their right mind would blame his mother? My brothers and I were
raised in the same house. One is a 47 year old delinquent, one is a middle
manager making lots of money, and I'm a person who pays her bills and does
kind things for people. How should my mother feel about that?
There seems to be a dichotomy that I can't quite put my finger on.
It's more than nature vs. nurture. That's too simplistic. Too many factors
involved.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
But he's on your team, he's in your family, you get to feel puffed up in
general. Reflected glory. Relief that he didn't just duck and run.
~~~
And if I get that, what does John Hinkley's mother get? Blame and reflected
disgust? Why should I get to feel relieved if she doesn't have to feel
guilty? Who in their right mind would blame his mother? My brothers and I were
raised in the same house. One is a 47 year old delinquent, one is a middle
manager making lots of money, and I'm a person who pays her bills and does
kind things for people. How should my mother feel about that?
There seems to be a dichotomy that I can't quite put my finger on.
It's more than nature vs. nurture. That's too simplistic. Too many factors
involved.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/2005 5:40:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
There seems to be a dichotomy that I can't quite put my finger on.
It's more than nature vs. nurture. That's too simplistic. Too many
factors
involved.
Maybe it's that thing the Baptists (and others) talk about called
"freewill". Just because they were raised in a way to NOT behave as a murder doesn't
mean they won't use that "freewill" to do something wrong.
Same as if you gave two of my children a nice $100 bill. Each of them would
do drastically different things with it, even though I raised them both in
the same household.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tuckervill2@... writes:
There seems to be a dichotomy that I can't quite put my finger on.
It's more than nature vs. nurture. That's too simplistic. Too many
factors
involved.
Maybe it's that thing the Baptists (and others) talk about called
"freewill". Just because they were raised in a way to NOT behave as a murder doesn't
mean they won't use that "freewill" to do something wrong.
Same as if you gave two of my children a nice $100 bill. Each of them would
do drastically different things with it, even though I raised them both in
the same household.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/05 3:40:32 PM, tuckervill2@... writes:
If my kid kills yours aren't you going to think just a LITTLE badly of me?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Well, yes.
> And if I get that, what does John Hinkley's mother get? Blame and
> reflected
> disgust?
>
If my kid kills yours aren't you going to think just a LITTLE badly of me?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cally Brown
>So how would you have felt if your mother, who you have told us a lot
> I'm just not into people shucking responsibility for decisions they make.
> I have to think unschooling helps kids have better lives, or I've just
> wasted
> a lot of time and energy and could've made several tens of thousands of
> dollars working somewhere. It's got to be worth that much.
about over the years, had claimed responsibility for all the good stuff
you have done over the years? Your writing skills, your support skills,
your musical skills, your child raising skills? And heaps more good
stuff? If she said, "well, hey! If I hadn't been a crap momma a lot of
the time you wouldn't have pulled yourself up by the bootlaces and
turned yourself into the cool person you are. I'm claiming all the good
stuff to my credit, as well as any crap stuff."
One of my sons said to me once, "When you blame yourself for my
mistakes, I feel like you are claiming all my good stuff too, and that
leaves me feeling like I'm not a real person" or words to that effect.
And I got to feeling that yeah, that's how I'd been feeling about my
life too - like my dead mother still owned my life.
Thank goodness I have these wonderful kids who have both insight and the
words to express it! There's an old joke that goes, 'Insanity is
hereditary - you get it from your children.' Well, in my case it's the
other way around - living with my children and their wisdom has taught
me so much, and has helped me along my path to recovering my life from
the mother who assummed responsibility for it so many years ago. Maybe
one day I'll be able to say, 'sanity and serenity are hereditary - you
get them from your children.'
Yes, I can see how I have influenced my children, both for good and bad.
But I also see how each one has responded to me, and life, in their own
unique way, and how they form their own lives. They make mistakes of
their own: some original, some that people make generation after
generation =sigh= . And they they do and say and think wonderful things.
My homeschooled / unschooled kids, despite my multitude of mistakes are
very 'self centred' - but I don't mean that in the usual way. I mean
that each of them is very centred in himself, in his being. I'm 54 and
still trying to get there, still a million years away from that. I've
blamed my mother, blamed my teachers, blamed this, that and the other -
and given all the credit for the good stuff away as well. From my boys I
have started to learn to reclaim my self. But I've got a long way to go.
But I still won't write my book for fear of all the what ifs! But hey,
Sandra, just because I can 'get over it' doesn't mean to say you
shouldn't! Seriously though, I hope you do get over the what ifs and
write lots of books! But I do understand your fears and hesitations.
hugs
Cally
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/2005 4:56:01 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
If my kid kills yours aren't you going to think just a LITTLE badly of me?
Sandra
~~~
Yeah, but why should I? On critical examination...it seems like the Twinkie
defense. Your kid killed mine because he ate nothing but Twinkies. Your
kid killed mine because you didn't start unschooling him until he was in 6th
grade. Should we put you in jail, too?
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
If my kid kills yours aren't you going to think just a LITTLE badly of me?
Sandra
~~~
Yeah, but why should I? On critical examination...it seems like the Twinkie
defense. Your kid killed mine because he ate nothing but Twinkies. Your
kid killed mine because you didn't start unschooling him until he was in 6th
grade. Should we put you in jail, too?
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/05 3:56:00 PM, mjcmbrwn@... writes:
Sandra"?
Those who had any idea would say "Yeah, but what about Irene and Justin?" <g>
And those who knew my dad (who's also Irene's dad) and Justin's dad (who was
a kinda psychopathic drunken Mormon truckdriver whose life had not gone well)
would say, "Well Sandra took after her dad's side of the family."
Genetics.
Plus possibly opportunity, motivation, natural tendencies, being firstborn,
being a Leo, having friends who were interesting, not chewing the paint off of
lead-painted bannisters...
So are we all saying that unschooling just ain't all that?
-=-And I got to feeling that yeah, that's how I'd been feeling about my
life too - like my dead mother still owned my life.-=-
Keith lives his life kind of in opposition to his mom, so we've used that as
part of the model (in the fill-the-mold and take the imprint of what you want
it NOT to be way) of how we can try to avoid that pitfall with our kids. We
want to give them choices in such a way that they don't feel that we "won"
with one choice and they lost. It's not easy, but it seems worth a shot.
-=-And I got to feeling that yeah, that's how I'd been feeling about my
life too - like my dead mother still owned my life.-=-
Thank you for not calling me a whiner. You're so nice. Come and sit by
me. Kelly was just getting up anyway. Kelly? Kelly... Someone in
Alabama just posted at unschooling.info and probably needs to be invited to the
conference!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So how would you have felt if your mother, who you have told us a lotLike if she wrote a book saying "Do what I did and you'll have a kid like
> about over the years, had claimed responsibility for all the good stuff
> you have done over the years?
>
Sandra"?
Those who had any idea would say "Yeah, but what about Irene and Justin?" <g>
And those who knew my dad (who's also Irene's dad) and Justin's dad (who was
a kinda psychopathic drunken Mormon truckdriver whose life had not gone well)
would say, "Well Sandra took after her dad's side of the family."
Genetics.
Plus possibly opportunity, motivation, natural tendencies, being firstborn,
being a Leo, having friends who were interesting, not chewing the paint off of
lead-painted bannisters...
So are we all saying that unschooling just ain't all that?
-=-And I got to feeling that yeah, that's how I'd been feeling about my
life too - like my dead mother still owned my life.-=-
Keith lives his life kind of in opposition to his mom, so we've used that as
part of the model (in the fill-the-mold and take the imprint of what you want
it NOT to be way) of how we can try to avoid that pitfall with our kids. We
want to give them choices in such a way that they don't feel that we "won"
with one choice and they lost. It's not easy, but it seems worth a shot.
-=-And I got to feeling that yeah, that's how I'd been feeling about my
life too - like my dead mother still owned my life.-=-
Thank you for not calling me a whiner. You're so nice. Come and sit by
me. Kelly was just getting up anyway. Kelly? Kelly... Someone in
Alabama just posted at unschooling.info and probably needs to be invited to the
conference!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/05 4:04:25 PM, tuckervill2@... writes:
mother thought it didn't matter what she did." (I don't know.)
-=- Should we put you in jail, too?-=-
No, the mother doesn't get jail. Just degradation.
Jimmie Carter's mom gets more credit than Hinckley's mom. That's the way
it's always been. It's natural. Even among the chimpanzees (if that Goodall
woman is to be believed) there's status in having one's offspring be cool.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> On critical examination...it seems like the TwinkieWell that would be "because your mother was a twinkie," or "because your
> defense. Your kid killed mine because he ate nothing but Twinkies.
>
mother thought it didn't matter what she did." (I don't know.)
-=- Should we put you in jail, too?-=-
No, the mother doesn't get jail. Just degradation.
Jimmie Carter's mom gets more credit than Hinckley's mom. That's the way
it's always been. It's natural. Even among the chimpanzees (if that Goodall
woman is to be believed) there's status in having one's offspring be cool.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/2005 4:56:01 PM Central Standard Time,
mjcmbrwn@... writes:
One of my sons said to me once, "When you blame yourself for my
mistakes, I feel like you are claiming all my good stuff too, and that
leaves me feeling like I'm not a real person" or words to that effect.
~~~
YES! Exactly! I can't steal their thunder. Or their lightning. It's not
mine to claim. It doesn't belong to me. I was just an influence, one of
many. My joy in their good deeds should borne of love for them--not love of
myself for what a good job I did. My misery at their misdeeds should be borne
of love for them--not guilt and shame for what I "might have" done.
I make a contribution, but I don't own it.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mjcmbrwn@... writes:
One of my sons said to me once, "When you blame yourself for my
mistakes, I feel like you are claiming all my good stuff too, and that
leaves me feeling like I'm not a real person" or words to that effect.
~~~
YES! Exactly! I can't steal their thunder. Or their lightning. It's not
mine to claim. It doesn't belong to me. I was just an influence, one of
many. My joy in their good deeds should borne of love for them--not love of
myself for what a good job I did. My misery at their misdeeds should be borne
of love for them--not guilt and shame for what I "might have" done.
I make a contribution, but I don't own it.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/2005 5:07:55 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
So are we all saying that unschooling just ain't all that?
~~~
It's all that, but it's not the only thing.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
So are we all saying that unschooling just ain't all that?
~~~
It's all that, but it's not the only thing.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Katy Jennings
<<<<My brothers and I were
raised in the same house. One is a 47 year old delinquent, one is a middle
manager making lots of money, and I'm a person who pays her bills and does
kind things for people. How should my mother feel about that? >>>>
Of course I don't know the definitive answer to nature vs. nurture, but I did want to comment about being raised in the same household. My sister and brother are 13 and 10 years older than I am. We are VERY different. We were all raised in the same household, but circumstances changed with each of us, as I think they always do. My sister and brother were born when my parents were young and didn't have much money. My dad was a teacher and my mom worked part time in childcare but mostly stayed at home. My dad adored my sister, he really put her on a pedestal He and my brother really clashed. By the time I came along their marriage was failing and I didn't really see him much, though we did take trips all around New Mexico that I remember and cherish. My mom adored all of her kids.
When I was young my mom's views on children had changed lots, she became much more open minded. She was probably a better mom to me than she was to my brother and sister. She is MUCH better with my son than she was with me.
My sister married young, became an optometrist, and moved far away. She was distant and selfish. She never had kids. She is now divorced, remarried, and is working on reconnecting with her family.
My brother married fairly young too, and stayed in Alamogordo, he is a mechanic. He has 2 kids, a wife that I love like a sister (and get along with better than my sister), and though I disagree with some of his parenting philosophies, he is probably the best, most moral, most well-meaning, thoughtful man I know. In many ways I strive to be more like him.
I was leading a fairly dangerous lifestyle in high school and college, got pregnant at 20, and realized what I was doing. My son saved my life, really. I have always been a single parent. I tend to rebel, to always go against the grain. I also tend to be overly sensitive (in the feelings get hurt easily sort of way, so is my son). My son is the most important thing in the world to me, and I often end up pushing friends away because either I would rather be with him, or because I don't like their influence on him.
My long rambling point is that we all grew up in the same household, with the same parents, but were all raised very differently. And we are all very different people. Yes genetics had a lot to do with it, but so did our parents.
My opinion is that nature and nurture both play a part, but giving your children a warm, peaceful, loving household goes a long way towards creating warm, peaceful, loving adults.
Katy J.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
raised in the same house. One is a 47 year old delinquent, one is a middle
manager making lots of money, and I'm a person who pays her bills and does
kind things for people. How should my mother feel about that? >>>>
Of course I don't know the definitive answer to nature vs. nurture, but I did want to comment about being raised in the same household. My sister and brother are 13 and 10 years older than I am. We are VERY different. We were all raised in the same household, but circumstances changed with each of us, as I think they always do. My sister and brother were born when my parents were young and didn't have much money. My dad was a teacher and my mom worked part time in childcare but mostly stayed at home. My dad adored my sister, he really put her on a pedestal He and my brother really clashed. By the time I came along their marriage was failing and I didn't really see him much, though we did take trips all around New Mexico that I remember and cherish. My mom adored all of her kids.
When I was young my mom's views on children had changed lots, she became much more open minded. She was probably a better mom to me than she was to my brother and sister. She is MUCH better with my son than she was with me.
My sister married young, became an optometrist, and moved far away. She was distant and selfish. She never had kids. She is now divorced, remarried, and is working on reconnecting with her family.
My brother married fairly young too, and stayed in Alamogordo, he is a mechanic. He has 2 kids, a wife that I love like a sister (and get along with better than my sister), and though I disagree with some of his parenting philosophies, he is probably the best, most moral, most well-meaning, thoughtful man I know. In many ways I strive to be more like him.
I was leading a fairly dangerous lifestyle in high school and college, got pregnant at 20, and realized what I was doing. My son saved my life, really. I have always been a single parent. I tend to rebel, to always go against the grain. I also tend to be overly sensitive (in the feelings get hurt easily sort of way, so is my son). My son is the most important thing in the world to me, and I often end up pushing friends away because either I would rather be with him, or because I don't like their influence on him.
My long rambling point is that we all grew up in the same household, with the same parents, but were all raised very differently. And we are all very different people. Yes genetics had a lot to do with it, but so did our parents.
My opinion is that nature and nurture both play a part, but giving your children a warm, peaceful, loving household goes a long way towards creating warm, peaceful, loving adults.
Katy J.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
From: Tuckervill@...
Your
kid killed mine because you didn't start unschooling him until he was
in 6th
grade. Should we put you in jail, too?
-=-=-=-=-
Guilty. Actually, it was *after* sixth grade. I want a cell next to
Martha Stewart.
-=-=-=-=-
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@...
Thank you for not calling me a whiner. You're so nice. Come and sit
by
me. Kelly was just getting up anyway. Kelly?
-=-=-=-=
What-iffin' whiner! Write the damned book!
-=-=-=-=-
Kelly... Someone in
Alabama just posted at unschooling.info and probably needs to be
invited to the
conference!
OK. OK! Sheesh!---even though I'm afraid now to venture into those
waters!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
Your
kid killed mine because you didn't start unschooling him until he was
in 6th
grade. Should we put you in jail, too?
-=-=-=-=-
Guilty. Actually, it was *after* sixth grade. I want a cell next to
Martha Stewart.
-=-=-=-=-
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@...
Thank you for not calling me a whiner. You're so nice. Come and sit
by
me. Kelly was just getting up anyway. Kelly?
-=-=-=-=
What-iffin' whiner! Write the damned book!
-=-=-=-=-
Kelly... Someone in
Alabama just posted at unschooling.info and probably needs to be
invited to the
conference!
OK. OK! Sheesh!---even though I'm afraid now to venture into those
waters!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
jillianmarie817
--- In [email protected],
***I don't usually write here, but this struck a cord with me and I
had to jump in, I'm not sure why though.
I had an "issue" (too long and boring for people not directly
involved to go into here) with my mom. Usually when we
have "issues" she directly attacks my parenting. Most recently she
wrote to me something like I think she did everything wrong as a
mother, and I am just doing everything opposite. She said until I
turned 18, the way I was, what I did, etc. reflected on her. Once I
turn 18, I was on my own as far as decision making goes. And she no
longer feels any of that responsibility, and she is gratefulfor
that. And she's so happy that what she said is true. (Not a direct
quote, but almost...reworded from the email she sent me.)
Correcting her parenting is not my goal, I am raising my kids the
way that feels right to me. How I felt as a kid is not how I want
my kids to feel. My relationship with my mom is not how I want my
relationship with my kids to be. As far as turning 18...I think the
time my kids spend under 18 is the time I spend investing in them so
when they are grown adults (at whatever age they get to that point)
I will be happy with how they "reflect" on me. Plus, I don't want
my kids to feel like once they turn *18* I'm done with them; I'll
still be there for them. I feel like my mom is so happy to not feel
that responsibility because she does not approve or agree with the
choices I make and is happy her philosophy gives her
an "out"...which makes me sad, since those choices are part of who I
am.
On the topic being discussed, I see both points...both from a mother
and child standpoint.
Jill
***I don't usually write here, but this struck a cord with me and I
had to jump in, I'm not sure why though.
I had an "issue" (too long and boring for people not directly
involved to go into here) with my mom. Usually when we
have "issues" she directly attacks my parenting. Most recently she
wrote to me something like I think she did everything wrong as a
mother, and I am just doing everything opposite. She said until I
turned 18, the way I was, what I did, etc. reflected on her. Once I
turn 18, I was on my own as far as decision making goes. And she no
longer feels any of that responsibility, and she is gratefulfor
that. And she's so happy that what she said is true. (Not a direct
quote, but almost...reworded from the email she sent me.)
Correcting her parenting is not my goal, I am raising my kids the
way that feels right to me. How I felt as a kid is not how I want
my kids to feel. My relationship with my mom is not how I want my
relationship with my kids to be. As far as turning 18...I think the
time my kids spend under 18 is the time I spend investing in them so
when they are grown adults (at whatever age they get to that point)
I will be happy with how they "reflect" on me. Plus, I don't want
my kids to feel like once they turn *18* I'm done with them; I'll
still be there for them. I feel like my mom is so happy to not feel
that responsibility because she does not approve or agree with the
choices I make and is happy her philosophy gives her
an "out"...which makes me sad, since those choices are part of who I
am.
On the topic being discussed, I see both points...both from a mother
and child standpoint.
Jill
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/2005 5:11:29 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Jimmie Carter's mom gets more credit than Hinckley's mom. That's the way
it's always been. It's natural. Even among the chimpanzees (if that
Goodall
woman is to be believed) there's status in having one's offspring be cool.
~~~
So is that one of the goals of unschooling, then?
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Jimmie Carter's mom gets more credit than Hinckley's mom. That's the way
it's always been. It's natural. Even among the chimpanzees (if that
Goodall
woman is to be believed) there's status in having one's offspring be cool.
~~~
So is that one of the goals of unschooling, then?
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/05 8:34:53 PM, tuckervill2@... writes:
I had gone to work and we had become as estranged as the families around us?
Yes.
Do I hope that this peace and good relationship will make them better and
more peaceful adults than if they'd been shoved into school and told to stay
there?
Yes.
If it were just a coin toss, why unschool at all?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>To have a better relationship and outcome than if they had gone to school and
> So is that one of the goals of unschooling, then?
>
I had gone to work and we had become as estranged as the families around us?
Yes.
Do I hope that this peace and good relationship will make them better and
more peaceful adults than if they'd been shoved into school and told to stay
there?
Yes.
If it were just a coin toss, why unschool at all?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/05 7:07:39 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
There are sharks in New Mexico, but only at the aquarium. They are so CUTE
through that inch-thick glass.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Kelly... Someone inThere aren't sharks in Alabama, are there!?
> Alabama just posted at unschooling.info and probably needs to be
> invited to the
> conference!
>
> OK. OK! Sheesh!---even though I'm afraid now to venture into those
> waters!
>
>
There are sharks in New Mexico, but only at the aquarium. They are so CUTE
through that inch-thick glass.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@...
There aren't sharks in Alabama, are there!?
There are sharks in New Mexico, but only at the aquarium. They are so
CUTE
through that inch-thick glass.
-=-=-=-=-=-
There are sharks at the aquarium at the City Museum
(www.citymuseum.org) in St Louis.
In fact, you can slide down a tube and be underwater with them!
~Kelly, also reminding everyone to register for the Live and Learn
Unschooling Conference before the Early Bird Deadline of July 31
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: SandraDodd@...
There aren't sharks in Alabama, are there!?
There are sharks in New Mexico, but only at the aquarium. They are so
CUTE
through that inch-thick glass.
-=-=-=-=-=-
There are sharks at the aquarium at the City Museum
(www.citymuseum.org) in St Louis.
In fact, you can slide down a tube and be underwater with them!
~Kelly, also reminding everyone to register for the Live and Learn
Unschooling Conference before the Early Bird Deadline of July 31
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
Julie W
> <<<<My brothers and I wereNot sure, but I do know may parents treated me and my sister different,
> raised in the same house. One is a 47 year old delinquent, one is a
> middle
> manager making lots of money, and I'm a person who pays her bills and
> does
> kind things for people. How should my mother feel about that? >>>>
>
hell they still do.
Bitter?
--
Julie W
http://jwoolfolk.typepad.com/theothermother/
Live and Learn
http://www.geocities.com/live-and-learn.geo/
The Homeschool Zone
http://www.freewebs.com/thehomeschoolzone/index.htm
*"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one
half so bad as a lot of ignorance."*
* *
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/05 10:35:36 PM, jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
late 70's. He had been way nicer to me than to my sister. She ended up
living with him after my parents divorced and he had remarried a woman not at ALL
like us, and she was always telling my sister to tie her hair back and dress
different, be/walk/eat/sit differently, and my dad backed the "new mom" up.
Then they divorced, so my sister was totally torqued (she was 14/15 at the time
of all this) because my dad had been strict with her for nothing, for no one,
she felt.
Meanwhile my mom had always favored my sister, from the time she was born, it
seemed to me. She took her side over me consistently. She called me "a
daddy's girl," and not in a nice tone of voice.
Last night we had some discussion here about how very much Marty is like
Keith. "Kirby has always looked more like you," Keith's mom said. Well, he
looks like Keith too, until Marty shows up and REALLY looks like Keith. But
it's more than looks, it's temperament, biological conditions (similar skin,
bedwetting later than others which Keith also did, similar aches, both get
athlete's foot and the other kids never have, both introverts, both left
handed...)
We have a non-related friend who's mostly friends with me, and one day when
we were talking about my kids I told him I couldn't help but like Marty a lot
because he was so much like a cute young Keith, and the friend said he'd
alwas liked Kirby because Kirby was so much like me.
That sort of business probably has an effect even when the parent can't see
it.
I have a friend whose parents divorced bitterly, and the mom actively hated
the father. Poor Kid was (as Marty is to Keith) nearly a clone, and as he got
older and his beard came in like his dads and his voice came to sound like
his dad's, his mom started treating him worse.
I was briefly married into a family with six kids. I married #2, because
the parents died and his youngest brother and sister were young, 10 and 12 and
were going to be taken away from him because though he had already been their
caretaker for a while, but he was 23 and not married and the judge was going to
deny custody. The two oldest had been born while the parents were college
students in Albuquerque in the 50s'. The second two had been born when the
parents were living in Las Vegas and working not-so-great jobs. The dad was
fixing vending machines and pinball machines and the mom was home with the
kids. Then the mom started teaching, the dad went back to school and got an
engineering degree, got a good job at Los Alamos National Laboratories, they had
two more kids, bought a cool old six acre farm with a funky-cool house and
started living like moneyed liberals ("rich hippies," basically). By then the
dad was drinking quite a bit. Too much. The mom was rarely home, as she
taught at some distance, and the older boys took care of the younger kids, more
or less.
That's the most extreme "the same family" I've ever seen. Then the dad died
in a runway plane accident on government business, so they got double the
insurance money, plus there was other settlement money from the airplane
manufacturor, and suddenly the mom could buy a sailboat and a Checker station wagon
(new, when those were available) and life got pretty cool until she died from
complications of elective surgery (tummy tuck).
Should she have paid more attention to kids and not risked her life to look
younger? She paid lots of attention to the older two. She never risked her
life while the older four were young.
Even twins have different experiences.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Not sure, but I do know may parents treated me and my sister different,Another factor! My sister and I have discussed this. My dad died in the
> hell they still do.
>
late 70's. He had been way nicer to me than to my sister. She ended up
living with him after my parents divorced and he had remarried a woman not at ALL
like us, and she was always telling my sister to tie her hair back and dress
different, be/walk/eat/sit differently, and my dad backed the "new mom" up.
Then they divorced, so my sister was totally torqued (she was 14/15 at the time
of all this) because my dad had been strict with her for nothing, for no one,
she felt.
Meanwhile my mom had always favored my sister, from the time she was born, it
seemed to me. She took her side over me consistently. She called me "a
daddy's girl," and not in a nice tone of voice.
Last night we had some discussion here about how very much Marty is like
Keith. "Kirby has always looked more like you," Keith's mom said. Well, he
looks like Keith too, until Marty shows up and REALLY looks like Keith. But
it's more than looks, it's temperament, biological conditions (similar skin,
bedwetting later than others which Keith also did, similar aches, both get
athlete's foot and the other kids never have, both introverts, both left
handed...)
We have a non-related friend who's mostly friends with me, and one day when
we were talking about my kids I told him I couldn't help but like Marty a lot
because he was so much like a cute young Keith, and the friend said he'd
alwas liked Kirby because Kirby was so much like me.
That sort of business probably has an effect even when the parent can't see
it.
I have a friend whose parents divorced bitterly, and the mom actively hated
the father. Poor Kid was (as Marty is to Keith) nearly a clone, and as he got
older and his beard came in like his dads and his voice came to sound like
his dad's, his mom started treating him worse.
I was briefly married into a family with six kids. I married #2, because
the parents died and his youngest brother and sister were young, 10 and 12 and
were going to be taken away from him because though he had already been their
caretaker for a while, but he was 23 and not married and the judge was going to
deny custody. The two oldest had been born while the parents were college
students in Albuquerque in the 50s'. The second two had been born when the
parents were living in Las Vegas and working not-so-great jobs. The dad was
fixing vending machines and pinball machines and the mom was home with the
kids. Then the mom started teaching, the dad went back to school and got an
engineering degree, got a good job at Los Alamos National Laboratories, they had
two more kids, bought a cool old six acre farm with a funky-cool house and
started living like moneyed liberals ("rich hippies," basically). By then the
dad was drinking quite a bit. Too much. The mom was rarely home, as she
taught at some distance, and the older boys took care of the younger kids, more
or less.
That's the most extreme "the same family" I've ever seen. Then the dad died
in a runway plane accident on government business, so they got double the
insurance money, plus there was other settlement money from the airplane
manufacturor, and suddenly the mom could buy a sailboat and a Checker station wagon
(new, when those were available) and life got pretty cool until she died from
complications of elective surgery (tummy tuck).
Should she have paid more attention to kids and not risked her life to look
younger? She paid lots of attention to the older two. She never risked her
life while the older four were young.
Even twins have different experiences.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
K Krejci
I'm the youngest of four. I grew up in one of those
'we treat you kids equally' households. Uh-huh. My
brilliant, stifled, abusive father who was never good
enough for HIS father made sure that we were treated
equally. We were equally worthless, equally
ungrateful and equally treated to 'Get out of my
sight!' (on a good day).
My needy, domineering, martyr mother made sure that we
knew we were totally responsible for how my father
treated us and 'Why can't you just be good kids and do
what you're told?'
The result of this 'equal treatment': A 48 year-old
brother who may very well be a card-carrying neo-Nazi,
a 46 year-old brother who is always looking to score
the next big scam, and a 43 year-old sister whose been
married three times, has two kids less than a year
apart after getting 'accidentally' pregnant by her
Christian biker boyfriend of six months, lives on
welfare and now has a house that my 70 year-old martyr
mom bought for her (yes, a 30-year mortgage...).
My parents got divorced when I was 15-ish. I married
a Catholic version of my dad when I was 19. A year or
so later, my mother actually had me subpeonaed to
appear in court to force my dad to pay child support
for me.
My dad died three years ago. We had a gap of about 7
years where we never spoke. When we reintroduced
ourselves, I was an adult and he never treated me as
anything but who I am. It was a pretty good couple of
years until he died.
Me? I just try to stay away from the rest of them
because they're nuts. One day I will probably regret
it but I'm committed to growing OUR family in a happy,
comfortable way and I can't figure out how to do that
if I keep letting them ensnare me in their madnesses.
My madnesses keep me plenty busy as it is!
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
'we treat you kids equally' households. Uh-huh. My
brilliant, stifled, abusive father who was never good
enough for HIS father made sure that we were treated
equally. We were equally worthless, equally
ungrateful and equally treated to 'Get out of my
sight!' (on a good day).
My needy, domineering, martyr mother made sure that we
knew we were totally responsible for how my father
treated us and 'Why can't you just be good kids and do
what you're told?'
The result of this 'equal treatment': A 48 year-old
brother who may very well be a card-carrying neo-Nazi,
a 46 year-old brother who is always looking to score
the next big scam, and a 43 year-old sister whose been
married three times, has two kids less than a year
apart after getting 'accidentally' pregnant by her
Christian biker boyfriend of six months, lives on
welfare and now has a house that my 70 year-old martyr
mom bought for her (yes, a 30-year mortgage...).
My parents got divorced when I was 15-ish. I married
a Catholic version of my dad when I was 19. A year or
so later, my mother actually had me subpeonaed to
appear in court to force my dad to pay child support
for me.
My dad died three years ago. We had a gap of about 7
years where we never spoke. When we reintroduced
ourselves, I was an adult and he never treated me as
anything but who I am. It was a pretty good couple of
years until he died.
Me? I just try to stay away from the rest of them
because they're nuts. One day I will probably regret
it but I'm committed to growing OUR family in a happy,
comfortable way and I can't figure out how to do that
if I keep letting them ensnare me in their madnesses.
My madnesses keep me plenty busy as it is!
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
== being a Leo ==
Leo, Leo, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare seize the fire?
Happy Birthday (in the next month or so)!
Peace,
Amy (a fellow Leo who will be hosting a Funshop at L&L about a Jungian
take on Tarot Cards and Astrology, if Kelly hasn't nixed it all as too
weird!)
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: arcarpenter2003 <arcarpenter@...>
Leo, Leo, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare seize the fire?
Happy Birthday (in the next month or so)!
Peace,
Amy (a fellow Leo who will be hosting a Funshop at L&L about a Jungian
take on Tarot Cards and Astrology, if Kelly hasn't nixed it all as too
weird!)
-=-=-=-
Also a Leo here. August 19. I have *many* Leo friends.
And THAT ^ is a Tiger! <g>
Not Nixed---it should be there. Is it not up yet? Oh---and I believe
you will have a teen helper!
~K
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: arcarpenter2003 <arcarpenter@...>
Leo, Leo, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare seize the fire?
Happy Birthday (in the next month or so)!
Peace,
Amy (a fellow Leo who will be hosting a Funshop at L&L about a Jungian
take on Tarot Cards and Astrology, if Kelly hasn't nixed it all as too
weird!)
-=-=-=-
Also a Leo here. August 19. I have *many* Leo friends.
And THAT ^ is a Tiger! <g>
Not Nixed---it should be there. Is it not up yet? Oh---and I believe
you will have a teen helper!
~K
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
== Also a Leo here. August 19. I have *many* Leo friends.==
Then Happy Birthday to all of you -- July 29 for me.
== And THAT ^ is a Tiger! <g>==
Yes, my apologies to Wm. Blake. I couldn't resist. As Dorothy would
say, Lions and Tigers ... you know.
> Not Nixed---it should be there. Is it not up yet? Oh---and I believe
> you will have a teen helper!
I'm not seeing it yet. Cool about the teen helper -- how did that
come about?
Thanks,
Amy
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: arcarpenter2003 <arcarpenter@...>
come about?
-=-=-=-
It'll be there. Cheryl (Spiderwoman) has new hours and a living
adjustment. It'll be up soon.
The teen wanted to do a tarot funshop, but it was already taken. She'll
be there though to give her own interpretations.
~K
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: arcarpenter2003 <arcarpenter@...>
> Not Nixed---it should be there. Is it not up yet? Oh---and I believeI'm not seeing it yet. Cool about the teen helper -- how did that
> you will have a teen helper!
come about?
-=-=-=-
It'll be there. Cheryl (Spiderwoman) has new hours and a living
adjustment. It'll be up soon.
The teen wanted to do a tarot funshop, but it was already taken. She'll
be there though to give her own interpretations.
~K
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
==
> The teen wanted to do a tarot funshop, but it was already taken. She'll
> be there though to give her own interpretations.==
Very cool!
Peace,
Amy
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/14/2005 5:17:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
-=- Unschooling did not mold
my son into a lifesaver. Not unschooling did not mold John Hinkley into a
crazy person.
-=-So what does? -=-
***************************************
I thought I remember reading someplace that John Hinkley is a
Schitzophrenic. That MIGHT have a lot to do with how he turned out......
I know that I made some poor choices with my two oldest daughters (who are
on their own now). I didn't teach them better about the dangers of getting
too deep in debt....I didn't teach them how to budget better. I have tried
since they moved out to talk with them about it, and they are doing better, but
I have one daughter who probably has about 10 credit cards maxed out. I
can't help but think if I had talked more with her about it when they were
younger, or set a better example (we've been up to our eyeballs in bills a few
times) they'd have some money in savings, and not having a harder time with
bills.
My son (17) just won the county 4H "Hands" award...the award for always
pitching in, helping out without being asked, working hard. He helped build our
house (started when he was about 12) side by side with my husband. At times,
yeah, he HAD to help, but I can't begin to count the times I looked outside
and they'd be working together laughing about this or that,...I KNOW that the
work he's done around here, mostly always with a good attitude, has formed
him into who he is now. Just like my daughters do very well at their jobs and
college...probably because of not being burnt out in public school.
I know that when I was working full time, trying to school them, stressing
out, life was really hard and I wasn't a very nice person. I know those few
years have probably affected my kids, and I regret being in that situation.
It was more than I could handle.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
-=- Unschooling did not mold
my son into a lifesaver. Not unschooling did not mold John Hinkley into a
crazy person.
-=-So what does? -=-
***************************************
I thought I remember reading someplace that John Hinkley is a
Schitzophrenic. That MIGHT have a lot to do with how he turned out......
I know that I made some poor choices with my two oldest daughters (who are
on their own now). I didn't teach them better about the dangers of getting
too deep in debt....I didn't teach them how to budget better. I have tried
since they moved out to talk with them about it, and they are doing better, but
I have one daughter who probably has about 10 credit cards maxed out. I
can't help but think if I had talked more with her about it when they were
younger, or set a better example (we've been up to our eyeballs in bills a few
times) they'd have some money in savings, and not having a harder time with
bills.
My son (17) just won the county 4H "Hands" award...the award for always
pitching in, helping out without being asked, working hard. He helped build our
house (started when he was about 12) side by side with my husband. At times,
yeah, he HAD to help, but I can't begin to count the times I looked outside
and they'd be working together laughing about this or that,...I KNOW that the
work he's done around here, mostly always with a good attitude, has formed
him into who he is now. Just like my daughters do very well at their jobs and
college...probably because of not being burnt out in public school.
I know that when I was working full time, trying to school them, stressing
out, life was really hard and I wasn't a very nice person. I know those few
years have probably affected my kids, and I regret being in that situation.
It was more than I could handle.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/16/2005 8:33:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
CelticFrau@... writes:
In a message dated 7/14/2005 5:17:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
-=- Unschooling did not mold
my son into a lifesaver. Not unschooling did not mold John Hinkley into a
crazy person.
-=-So what does? -=-
***********************************************
Ugh...I hate it when that happens...this was not Sandra's quote, it's one
she quoted...
Quote belongs to Karen...sorry folks!
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CelticFrau@... writes:
In a message dated 7/14/2005 5:17:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
-=- Unschooling did not mold
my son into a lifesaver. Not unschooling did not mold John Hinkley into a
crazy person.
-=-So what does? -=-
***********************************************
Ugh...I hate it when that happens...this was not Sandra's quote, it's one
she quoted...
Quote belongs to Karen...sorry folks!
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]