Lou

I am going to book my 11 1/2 year old daughter on an adventure Youth
Hostel holiday. It is for a week and there are lots of different
activities. She enjoys drama, filming etc so I was going to book her on
the media film and tv one after I read it to her and she liked the
sound of it. This is an hour from where we live and they take them on
the coach.
Then her cousin called and is trying to persuade her to do the
performing arts one in London (5/6 hrs away) - as she wants to have
someone there that she knows (she is 14). I think my dd might like to
do the performing arts one too but feels I'd rather she did the course
closer to home. I suppose my concern is she's never done anything like
this before (going away with people she doesn't know) and if she hates
it it is nearer for me to pick her up. I don't want to stand in her way
but now I worry how will I know if she's picking the course she wants
or is being influenced by me or her cousin?

Joyce Fetteroll

This is pretty cool. It shows the evolution of graffiti on a number of
sites around CA.

http://www.otherthings.com/grafarc/

One of the artists who worked on Madagascar has cobbled together photos
that he and others took over the years of various sites. You can go
back in time to see how the graffiti has changed.

If you're on a slow connection and wait for all the pictures to load
you can page back and forth through the time line without waiting for
each photo.

Joyce

sheila

I'd just let her make the choice and not worry if she's choosing the course because she wants to be with her cousin.

Sometimes adults compromise on their first choice because it's more important to have the company of the other person. Husband and wife choosing to go on vacation, for example.

Sheila


"I don't want to stand in her way
but now I worry how will I know if she's picking the course she wants
or is being influenced by me or her cousin?"




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/21/2005 3:07:22 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
lssttn@... writes:

I don't want to stand in her way
but now I worry how will I know if she's picking the course she wants
or is being influenced by me or her cousin?



I would talk directly to the cousin and tell her your concerns and ask her
to back off for this year and maybe next year they could both go the one in
London.

Would the cousin come and do the near one? They're related fields, and it's
safer and easier for a 14 year old to travel that far than an 11 year old.

Holly went a couple of years to weeklong workshops (not all day, and not
overnights) by an artist here who used to have a TV show for kids, Mark Kistler.
Holly had to have an adult with her, so she invited her cousin who's seven
years older to come and be the adult. They allowed that, which was cool
(Gina was still a teen) because Gina had been a HUGE Mark Kistler fan from when
she was little, and is a good artist partly from the things she learned on his
TV show. That's their best cousin-shared thing, and they'll probably
remember it always.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

**

I would talk directly to the cousin and tell her your concerns and ask her
to back off for this year and maybe next year they could both go the one in
London.

Would the cousin come and do the near one? They're related fields, and it's
safer and easier for a 14 year old to travel that far than an 11 year old. **

(I'm jumping back to a prior post on this thread.)

The difference between compromising on vacation plans with one's husband and with one's cousin, is that I sincerely hope the husband wouldn't find one or more 14 year olds to hang out with and ditch the person that he came with. <g> However, I can easily imagine 14 year olds giving in to peer pressure and leaving out the 11 year old cousin.

Betsy

Lou

Thanks for your replies. I talked to dd and read her the specs on both
courses. She much prefers the London one! I am going to book her on it.
It is safe as they are picked up at Manchester (where we live) and
accompanied by the staff of the youth hostel to pick up other kids
doing the same holiday (the coach is only for these kids). I'll give
her plenty of money and her mobile topped up. I think she'll have a
great time. They get to see 2 west end shows, street performers and
learn acting. I don't want to suggest her staying here because I worry
she may be too young. Her excitement about it is contagious. Hope it
all works out ok! No her cousin would not come up here (the one dd is
going to is one hour from her cousins house). TBH dd would go to that
regardless of her cousin going which wouldn't apply the other way round
(I don't think).
Blessings,
Louise xxxx

K Krejci

The child may not have any knowledge of the meaning of
the word, "division", yet clearly understands the
process of organizing something into smaller pieces,
or divisions. <snip> The child doesn't need to know
that it can be called division or math in order to
have the thought process.(this was from Mary Ellen's
entry on sandradodd.com "Believing it...)

I understand this. I live this. Sadly, I argue this
with my husband almost daily. I can't 'make' him stop
'schooling' Ellis when they are together. Or when we
are together. He will come home and ask, "What has
Ellis been doing?" If I say, "playing computer" or
"watching TV" or "playing in his room", there is
significant huffing, puffing and eye-rolling which
leads to me huffing, puffing, eye-rolling and
defending.

My husband is deeply anti-schools for his precious son
(and rightly so). Yet he turns almost everything into
'school.' Comments like "He has to go DO something -
it's no good for him to stay in all day." "I had him
count his money - we need to keep doing that so he
doesn't forget." To me, it's all irrelevant.

If Ellis wants to play with money, he has a piggy bank
and can do so. He creates elaborate games with each
coin type being a certain type of player. He does not
invite anyone to play these games with him, usually.
On the occasions that he's asked his dad, I overhear
"What does that piece do? Why? (and the WORST!) It
SHOULD do THIS."

I hate that one. There is a passive-aggressive power
struggle going on. I would like it to stop. I've
forwarded articles, provided links, suggested ideas,
crafted careful "I" messages, flat out griped. I am
running out of ideas on how to end this short of
giving in. And that ain't gonna happen because this
is right for Ellis. Every part of me feels that.

So how do I get my husband from 'there' to 'here'?

Kathy

It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com



____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com

Pam Sorooshian

On Jun 25, 2005, at 11:58 AM, K Krejci wrote:

> I've
> forwarded articles, provided links, suggested ideas,
> crafted careful "I" messages, flat out griped. I am
> running out of ideas on how to end this short of
> giving in.

Has he read anything you've provided? What has he read?

You KNOW we're going to say get him to the Live and Learn Conference,
right?


-pam

K Krejci

--- Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

> Has he read anything you've provided? What has he
> read?

I sincerely doubt that he has. He usually looks at me
blankly when I mention an article and then says, "When
did you send me that?"

> You KNOW we're going to say get him to the Live and
> Learn Conference,
> right?

whimper whimper whimper... got a few sticks of
dynamite to blow him out of his rut?

Kathy

It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Elizabeth Hill

**So how do I get my husband from 'there' to 'here'?**

No parent is perfect (although my husband is darned cute).

Within the last hour I just busted my husband for giving our kid too
long and too confusing a lecture in response to an abstract question
("why is this called the 21st Century?"). This question WAS asked by my
kid. I was certainly not perfect in noodging and shushing my husband
right in front of my son when the answer kept getting longer and harder
to follow. My husband at least got it half right. He was answering a
specific question FROM our child. He paused the video (even tho' it was
"educational"! <g>) to make himself more audible. He attempted to be
simple and concrete in his explanation, even though the subject is
abstract and confuses adults. Where it went off the rails is that when
my son became confused and was trying to express himself "but wait.." or
"I think.." or "the way it is (in my head)...", at that point my husband
didn't stop trying to put HIS point across. When getting feedback like
that, I believe it would have been better if my husband had stopped his
exposition and listened to the questions and validated or clarified the
ideas that my son had and then adjusted the rest of his explanation at
that point. If I hadn't been right next to him, with my magnifying
glass of scrupulous unschooling zeal, probably no regular parent would
have detected a "parenting fault" in the conversation. The whole
dynamic would certainly have been simpler if I hadn't been sitting right
there, waiting for the video to resume, and highly motivated to butt
in. Even though my husband was trying to be gentle and kind in his
explanation, AND I was trying to be gentle and kind in my butting in
(honest!), my son still became distressed and had to go take a bath to
calm down. At that point we had to admit that ... um... well...
parenting errors have been committed on all sides. While our son was
out of the room, dh and I were able to have a calm conversation about
the reality that learning shuts down when people are confused. But my
husband should get extra points for being willing to attempt confusing
answers. And I should not try to skate through life with "I can't
explain it -- go ask your dad" as my strategy of choice. (A small
exaggeration, but those words have passed my lips.)

Bottom line -- perfection is out there in front of all of us. We need
to believe we can reach it or at least approach it. We need to keep
moving in that direction, while not letting an awareness of our flaws
weigh us down so much that we stop believing in our potential to be good
at this parenting stuff. (Or our spouse's potential to be good at this
parenting stuff.)

Betsy

PS Back more directly to your question -- maybe your husband is not
grasping the importance of *intrinsic* motivation, coming from within
the person?

[email protected]

"Why is this called the 21st century?" is like "Where do babies come from?"

He could've just said "the first century was in the double digits" (from
inside their moms) and let the kid think about it, or ask a follow-up question.

I have heard that in China their birthdays are counted unlike ours, and
someone is called one (or "in his first year) UNTIL birthday, and then is in his
second year.

Makes sense. Confusing, but when we say "two years old," half of that year
is closer to three than two.

Little answers with one more point help in LOTS of cases.
Let them ask more if and when they want to. Some parents end up explaining
sexual intercourse the first time the kid asks where babies come from.
Rarely, the kid actually asked all that many questions, and they could've waited
hours, or days, or years.

With counting time, it might (Or might NOT) help (if there's ever a followup)
to mention that we say "the first week" (of a month or a job) before a week
is up, and "the first millenium" is 1-999, and the second millenium is
1000-1999.

That's too much to tell a kid at once, though. It was too much for me to
think of at once. I need to rest now.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

**

"Why is this called the 21st century?" is like "Where do babies come from?"

He could've just said "the first century was in the double digits" (from
inside their moms) and let the kid think about it, or ask a follow-up question. **

Yes. He's a school teacher most of the year, and is just transitioning back from that for the summer. I think that makes it hard for him not to take a "teachable moment" and beat it to death! <g>

**
That's too much to tell a kid at once, though. It was too much for me to
think of at once. I need to rest now.**

I have to think that some smart people just know too much. My husband's expository speech included the fact that zero wasn't one of the first numbers invented, touched on the recent Millennium, included the buzzword "fencepost error", and an actual fence illustration made of fingers. He mentioned computer programming, and almost, but not quite talked about the fact that the C programming language indexes arrays starting at zero rather than at one! (But he stopped short of that, thankfully!) Me interrupting a couple of times did not actually make the whole presentations any less complicated, in the end.

I hope it's not a *really long time* before my son asks another question, but I am a little worried. (They're in the computer room gaming and chatting, so I think their relationship is still strong.)

My son is 11, with a pretty complex vocabulary, so it's not like this was poured onto the head of an innocent 7 year old. But it was still too much!

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/25/05 4:06:21 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:


> He could've just said "the first century was in the double digits"   (from
> inside their moms) and let the kid think about it, or ask a follow-up
> question. **
>
> Yes.  He's a school teacher most of the year, and is just transitioning back
> from that for the summer. 
>

It's a useful strategy for classrooms, too. Kids can easily ignore along
speech, but it's harder for them to ignore themselves thinking, or the other
kids speculating.

-=-My husband's expository speech included the fact that zero wasn't one of
the first numbers invented, touched on the recent Millennium, included the
buzzword "fencepost error", and an actual fence illustration made of fingers. -=-

But that really has nothing to do with it.
If he teaches that way, it's probably way more expense of energy than it's
worth.

-=-My son is 11, with a pretty complex vocabulary, so it's not like this was
poured onto the head of an innocent 7 year old. -=-

Vocabulary doesn't violate innocence, though. <g> I wouldn't have wanted
it poured on MY head.

It's not a conversation when one person is doing all the talking and the
other person isn't consenting at each turn to continue.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

arcarpenter2003

--- In [email protected], K Krejci <kraekrej@y...>
wrote:
==He will come home and ask, "What has
> Ellis been doing?" If I say, "playing computer" or
> "watching TV" or "playing in his room", there is
> significant huffing, puffing and eye-rolling which
> leads to me huffing, puffing, eye-rolling and
> defending.==

It sounds like he's *not* going to read your forwarded articles and
such, so the above might be a great opportunity to help him "see it."

"What has Ellis been doing?"

"He did some pretty complicated problem-solving this morning --
mapping and spatial skills, a maze, putting together two elements to
form a new strategy on <insert video game name here>. There was a lot
of social stuff, too -- he had to make appropriate decisions for the
character, and he learned the hard way that he has to think of his
team in this game."

Or "We had a nice little discussion about Japanese food while we were
watching Pokemon this afternoon. And I could really see him relating
when Ash didn't get a badge on his first try. It was so neat to see
him have a chance to process this stuff in his own comfort zone, here
at home."

Or "He's been having one of those great, totally absorbing days
playing with his cars in his room. I saw him set up a pretty
complicated pattern to get them in and out of the bad guys' hideout."

You could even start keeping a journal about your days, and taking
some pictures to fill it in, if you were so inclined. Then you'd have
something to point to when your husband's questions caught you off guard.

If your husband still translates the above as "just staying home,"
then I might really ask and validate and use all your NVC (non-violent
communication, if you need to Google it) skills. Don't try to defend
or argue -- just question and ask for clarification. Just let him
talk out all his concerns and validate how hard that must be for him.
I suspect he'll talk the wind out of his own sails at some point (if
that analogy works?).

I say this because what you said above sounds like the two of you are
in a pattern, and he's pushing back because it's what he's supposed to
do. If you give him nothing to push against, he'll have to hold his
own weight up, so to speak.

But I don't mean that you should let him "school" your son. Again, I
would question and reflect, as nicely as you can, and try to give him
the scoop on some situations before they become issues --

"Are you asking (a schooly-sounding question) because you're afraid
that Ellis doesn't know, or because you honestly wanted to know?"

"I'm not sure how Ellis feels, but I'm too tired to talk about the
Revolutionary War right now -- I'd rather snuggle and watch SpongeBob.
How about you, Ellis?"

Before they sit down to play the coin game: "Does it bother you if
Ellis uses a coin as something other than it is? He's really been
using his imagination in making up this game, but he has changed the
meanings of some of the coins."

And you might even ask Ellis himself how he feels about his dad's
"schooling," in a gentle, open way. Depending on your family
dynamics, Ellis can tell his dad how he feels (with you facilitating,
if need be), or you can be the messenger. I would just introduce it
very carefully ("this is hard for Ellis to say but he really wants you
to know how he feels because he loves you and wants a good
relationship with you") -- you want to open discussion, and that's
hard to do if someone feels they've been deliberately hurt.

Peace,
Amy

Robyn Coburn

<<<<<> I've
> forwarded articles, provided links, suggested ideas,
> crafted careful "I" messages, flat out griped. I am
> running out of ideas on how to end this short of
> giving in.

Has he read anything you've provided? What has he read?

You KNOW we're going to say get him to the Live and Learn Conference,
right?>>>>>

Also:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDads/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SSUDs/

These are the two Unschooling discussion groups that my dh is subscribed to.
They are not hugely busy but he enjoys them.

Robyn L. Coburn


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.1/28 - Release Date: 6/24/2005

Pam Sorooshian

On Jun 25, 2005, at 8:08 PM, arcarpenter2003 wrote:

> You could even start keeping a journal about your days, and taking
> some pictures to fill it in, if you were so inclined. Then you'd have
> something to point to when your husband's questions caught you off
> guard.

I did this for three months when we first started unschooling. And I
developed a little recording sheet to make it easier. What I did was
just keep one sheet for each kid out on a counter and jotted things
down throughout the day as I noticed them. The recording sheet doesn't
have you keeping track of "subjects" like history, science, etc., but
later that night I'd kind of fill in with my observations of what was
related to school subjects - like if under "Watching," I'd put down
we'd watched the musical, "Oliver," then I'd note some of the ways that
was history and literature, etc.

Obviously I just was touching on some highlights of the day.

I did it as an exercise for myself - eventually I got my fill, I was
saturated with seeing everything they did was LEARNING and was
important, I was so deeply convinced that I stopped thinking about it.
I stopped ever caring whether or not I could SEE how something they
were doing could translate into a school subject - I didn't care
anymore because I was so totally sure that whatever they were doing was
valid and valuable. It might serve a similar purpose for a husband and
help get him away from thinking in school subjects and in terms of the
value of what the child is really involved in during his day.

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/files/>

Reading (Books, magazines, newspapers, websites….Fiction, biography,
nonfiction, poetry, drama, essays, articles,…..)

Doing (Cooking, swimming, dog training, babysitting, volunteering,
working, singing, acting, music, math, ……)

Making (Art, crafts, building, sewing, weaving, beadwork, …. )

Writing (Journal, stories, letters, website, email, articles,… )

Watching (TV, movies, videos, live theater, demonstrations, exhibits,…)

Listening (Tapes, radio, music, stories, audio magazines, lectures,…. )

Talking (Speech, discussion, explaining, directing, instructing,
debating,….)

Visiting (Museums, zoos, field trips,…..)

Thinking (Planning, analyzing, imagining, plotting, ….)

K Krejci

Thank you, everyone, for the great suggestions and
stories about your experiences. I am going to try the
journal idea although it may require more dedication
to paper than I typically manage. :) It's worth it if
I can help my sweet husband to see what I'm saying.

He and I had a relatively distant day today but Ellis
and I had a blast! We built marble racetracks out of
blocks. Then he had an idea about using the marble to
knock down dominoes so he skittered to his room to get
them. Then he figured out how to line them up so they
could get knocked down.

Later we had a language lesson that he gave on German,
Spanish, French and Japanese courtesy of his LeapPad,
a great trip to the grocery store and "dinner and a
movie" night, watching The Jetsons Movie (which has a
pretty interesting 'responsible
business-environment-exploitation' message). After
that, we went into his room to get ready for bed and
he told me all about the planets and their orbits and
ran a quiz show for me with multiple choice questions
that he made up (e.g., "The earth's crust is made of
a) grass, b) soil, c) bowling balls, or d)
elephants"). We made a glow-in-the-dark mobile of
spaceships and astronauts, he read me a book, I read
him a book, he got his favorite lullaby and that was
the day.

Did I mention that he's six? He just astonishes me
all the time. I think that's what I would love for my
honey, his daddy, to enjoy, too - just the fun of
being around this sweet little boy who is sunshine in
human form.

Thanks again, for all your ideas-

(a much-relieved) Kathy

--- Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

>
> On Jun 25, 2005, at 8:08 PM, arcarpenter2003 wrote:
>
> > You could even start keeping a journal about your
> days, and taking
> > some pictures to fill it in, if you were so
> inclined. Then you'd have
> > something to point to when your husband's
> questions caught you off
> > guard.
>
> I did this for three months when we first started
> unschooling. And I
> developed a little recording sheet to make it
> easier. What I did was
> just keep one sheet for each kid out on a counter
> and jotted things
> down throughout the day as I noticed them. The
> recording sheet doesn't
> have you keeping track of "subjects" like history,
> science, etc., but
> later that night I'd kind of fill in with my
> observations of what was
> related to school subjects - like if under
> "Watching," I'd put down
> we'd watched the musical, "Oliver," then I'd note
> some of the ways that
> was history and literature, etc.
>
> Obviously I just was touching on some highlights of
> the day.
>
> I did it as an exercise for myself - eventually I
> got my fill, I was
> saturated with seeing everything they did was
> LEARNING and was
> important, I was so deeply convinced that I stopped
> thinking about it.
> I stopped ever caring whether or not I could SEE how
> something they
> were doing could translate into a school subject - I
> didn't care
> anymore because I was so totally sure that whatever
> they were doing was
> valid and valuable. It might serve a similar purpose
> for a husband and
> help get him away from thinking in school subjects
> and in terms of the
> value of what the child is really involved in during
> his day.
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/files/>
>
> Reading (Books, magazines, newspapers,
> websites….Fiction, biography,
> nonfiction, poetry, drama, essays, articles,…..)
>
> Doing (Cooking, swimming, dog training, babysitting,
> volunteering,
> working, singing, acting, music, math, ……)
>
> Making (Art, crafts, building, sewing, weaving,
> beadwork, …. )
>
> Writing (Journal, stories, letters, website, email,
> articles,… )
>
> Watching (TV, movies, videos, live theater,
> demonstrations, exhibits,…)
>
> Listening (Tapes, radio, music, stories, audio
> magazines, lectures,…. )
>
> Talking (Speech, discussion, explaining, directing,
> instructing,
> debating,….)
>
> Visiting (Museums, zoos, field trips,…..)
>
> Thinking (Planning, analyzing, imagining, plotting,
> ….)
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files
> area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> <http://www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
>
> [email protected]
>
>
>
>
>


It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com