about spoiled kids, but not from an unschooler
[email protected]
I don't want to make a form letter that says "I only answer the publically
asked questions of unschoolers," but at some point... Well, I hope something
helped her, but I thought this might be interesting to unschoolers, and I
thought to ask whether you think my whole theory on spoiled kids has to do with
attachment parented unschooled kids, not just any kids. I hope not.
(Also thought that "spoiled" kids won't want plastic toys from piano
teachers, only kids whose moms never buy them plastic toys. <g>)
Okay, to this, which was by e-mail from someone I'd never heard of:
==============================================================================
======================
I was just reading your articles and I had a question for you.
Our two girls, ages 7 and 8 1/2 are very smart and expressive. They are
outspoken and upset when they don't get their way.
It always happens that when we spend a day out with them and buy them things
or take them places, and then they may not get just one thing because either
it is too late, or we just don't have the money - they get angry, yell, tell
us they hate us, etc. The older one more than the younger. I end up getting
really angry at them and try to defend our situation. Then I have told them
they are spoiled and not grateful for everything we have tried to do for them.
I should add that we haven't had a lot of money lately because I have been a
stay at home mom. Life has been miserable not being able to enjoy things the
way we used to. But I think I am returning to work in a few weeks and I am
afraid that now they will really be thinking they can have everything they
want. Mostly because I am so happy to finally get some money in my hands. But I
want to teach some values.
I need some help on how to address this problem. I know I over react. It
really hurts my feelings. I try to talk to them about how we want to take them
places and do things, but they have to understand we can only do so much. They
seem to understand, but when it actually happens, they just can't be patient
or just enjoy all the other things they had going for them throughout the
day.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
===============================================
Are you homeschooling?
Are you on the UnschoolingDiscussion list or AlwaysLearning?
If your girls are in school, the things I write might be removed from the
realities of your life.
Let me know a little more about your situation.
I can say that saying "you are spoiled and ungrateful" wouldn't be
recommended by anyone, I'm pretty sure. Saying "That makes me wish we hadn't gone,
because it spoiled all the fun" might be closer. Talking about yourself is
fair. Telling them they're bad is insult to injury. Should they not have felt
injured? Maybe. But telling them their feelings are wrong is only going to
make it worse.
Sandra
===============================
I agree. I definitely reacted in a way that I shouldn't. But they are very
strong willed kids, very creative and have no problems expressing their
feelings. That can be difficult at times, because they often hurt mine when they
don't get their way.
No, they are not home schooled. I have to work and I don't have the patience
to teach academics. I love the school they are in.
I want to teach them to enjoy the things we can do for them, but not be so
angry when they don't get their way. I want them to learn patience. I know that
their behavior comes from some of our behaviors as parents, it is just hard
to recognize them when they are happening.
Thank you for your input.
=======================================
But they are very strong willed kids, very creative and have no problems
expressing their feelings. That can be difficult at times, because they often
hurt mine when they don't get their way.
I used to get my feelings hurt when my kids were younger, but I worked
consciously on getting over that. They need to have a safe place to practice
interpersonals, and they NEED home as a haven to relax, especially as they go to
school.
School is stressful. It is a HUGE wad of not getting your way.
Kids at home get lots of their parents in all kinds of ways. Schoolkids
often get a lot of parents-backing-up-school time about homework and bedtimes
and get-your-clothes-ready.
Trying to make home less school focussed might help. Spending more
one-on-one time with the girls might help.
With my kids to keep them from being competitive at a time and dollar level,
we purposely and early on did very different things and got them very
different things, discussing all the while why this or that thing would be ideal
for this particular child. They all knew they would have special stuff and
experiences too, so they haven't been the kinds of kids who say "You spent $10
on her, you have to spend $10 on me." We spent time recently with a family
that was exactly that way, but partly it might be because the dad died a few
years ago and the kids don't have as much opportunity to be alone with the mom.
-=-I want to teach them to enjoy the things we can do for them, but not be
so angry when they don't get their way. I want them to learn patience.-=-
If you weren't invested in schooling, I could say some things about this.
Teaching and learning rarely happen in conjunction. There are things you
can't "teach" them, but you can help them learn. It would help if you, at least,
would look into the difference. If you see opportunities through which they
can learn, and you could discuss the situation with them without feeling
like you're "teaching" them, it would change your relationships in good ways.
Here's something about that:
_http://sandradodd.com/wordswords_ (http://sandradodd.com/wordswords)
My overriding guess is the kids are feeling needy and don't feel they
should. You don't need to discuss that with them, just give them more of yourself,
more casual touch, more attention, more listening, more personal cushion.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
asked questions of unschoolers," but at some point... Well, I hope something
helped her, but I thought this might be interesting to unschoolers, and I
thought to ask whether you think my whole theory on spoiled kids has to do with
attachment parented unschooled kids, not just any kids. I hope not.
(Also thought that "spoiled" kids won't want plastic toys from piano
teachers, only kids whose moms never buy them plastic toys. <g>)
Okay, to this, which was by e-mail from someone I'd never heard of:
==============================================================================
======================
I was just reading your articles and I had a question for you.
Our two girls, ages 7 and 8 1/2 are very smart and expressive. They are
outspoken and upset when they don't get their way.
It always happens that when we spend a day out with them and buy them things
or take them places, and then they may not get just one thing because either
it is too late, or we just don't have the money - they get angry, yell, tell
us they hate us, etc. The older one more than the younger. I end up getting
really angry at them and try to defend our situation. Then I have told them
they are spoiled and not grateful for everything we have tried to do for them.
I should add that we haven't had a lot of money lately because I have been a
stay at home mom. Life has been miserable not being able to enjoy things the
way we used to. But I think I am returning to work in a few weeks and I am
afraid that now they will really be thinking they can have everything they
want. Mostly because I am so happy to finally get some money in my hands. But I
want to teach some values.
I need some help on how to address this problem. I know I over react. It
really hurts my feelings. I try to talk to them about how we want to take them
places and do things, but they have to understand we can only do so much. They
seem to understand, but when it actually happens, they just can't be patient
or just enjoy all the other things they had going for them throughout the
day.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
===============================================
Are you homeschooling?
Are you on the UnschoolingDiscussion list or AlwaysLearning?
If your girls are in school, the things I write might be removed from the
realities of your life.
Let me know a little more about your situation.
I can say that saying "you are spoiled and ungrateful" wouldn't be
recommended by anyone, I'm pretty sure. Saying "That makes me wish we hadn't gone,
because it spoiled all the fun" might be closer. Talking about yourself is
fair. Telling them they're bad is insult to injury. Should they not have felt
injured? Maybe. But telling them their feelings are wrong is only going to
make it worse.
Sandra
===============================
I agree. I definitely reacted in a way that I shouldn't. But they are very
strong willed kids, very creative and have no problems expressing their
feelings. That can be difficult at times, because they often hurt mine when they
don't get their way.
No, they are not home schooled. I have to work and I don't have the patience
to teach academics. I love the school they are in.
I want to teach them to enjoy the things we can do for them, but not be so
angry when they don't get their way. I want them to learn patience. I know that
their behavior comes from some of our behaviors as parents, it is just hard
to recognize them when they are happening.
Thank you for your input.
=======================================
But they are very strong willed kids, very creative and have no problems
expressing their feelings. That can be difficult at times, because they often
hurt mine when they don't get their way.
I used to get my feelings hurt when my kids were younger, but I worked
consciously on getting over that. They need to have a safe place to practice
interpersonals, and they NEED home as a haven to relax, especially as they go to
school.
School is stressful. It is a HUGE wad of not getting your way.
Kids at home get lots of their parents in all kinds of ways. Schoolkids
often get a lot of parents-backing-up-school time about homework and bedtimes
and get-your-clothes-ready.
Trying to make home less school focussed might help. Spending more
one-on-one time with the girls might help.
With my kids to keep them from being competitive at a time and dollar level,
we purposely and early on did very different things and got them very
different things, discussing all the while why this or that thing would be ideal
for this particular child. They all knew they would have special stuff and
experiences too, so they haven't been the kinds of kids who say "You spent $10
on her, you have to spend $10 on me." We spent time recently with a family
that was exactly that way, but partly it might be because the dad died a few
years ago and the kids don't have as much opportunity to be alone with the mom.
-=-I want to teach them to enjoy the things we can do for them, but not be
so angry when they don't get their way. I want them to learn patience.-=-
If you weren't invested in schooling, I could say some things about this.
Teaching and learning rarely happen in conjunction. There are things you
can't "teach" them, but you can help them learn. It would help if you, at least,
would look into the difference. If you see opportunities through which they
can learn, and you could discuss the situation with them without feeling
like you're "teaching" them, it would change your relationships in good ways.
Here's something about that:
_http://sandradodd.com/wordswords_ (http://sandradodd.com/wordswords)
My overriding guess is the kids are feeling needy and don't feel they
should. You don't need to discuss that with them, just give them more of yourself,
more casual touch, more attention, more listening, more personal cushion.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather Woodward
I wanted to comment on some of this - I feel that sometimes my children are not "thankful". There are days when I feel there is no end to their "wants". I know there are times that I am not "thankful" inwardly..... but perhaps they are more vocal or they can somehow "feel" my "negative unthankful-ness "? I also think that maybe in my case, I am more conscious of non-thankful behavior because I am worried about it within myself.
My kids don 't yell I hate you or anything - but I could buy them 20 things they ask for in a store and when they ask for the 21st and its like the sky is falling I will say - "we'll have to wait a bit - because we have a limited budget here - if you wanted to put back something else and get this instead that would be ok" . There have been other times where they have wanted something that I know I can't get this week - and I will say "That would make a great b-day present for you" and sometimes this is well received. I can understand the mothers frustration with the stress of providing more and more. Where does it end? For me one of the things I notice is that some adults - myself included do not always behave in the best possible way - and yet we somehow expect kids to behave perfectly. There is a learning curve for everyone involved.
It sounds that the issue here is the resentment the mother is feeling - whether she wants to work or not it seems that it is motivated by the desire for material things rather then time and energy. I think it boils down to what you said about the kids being needy - and maybe they are not sure what exactly their "need" is but are trying to fill it with outside things. Adults often do this with shopping.
You know it is interesting that she is reading your pages. I am sure that there are people out there that may read them - and they aren't going to jump into unschooling overnight....and they may never... but it is sowing seeds and you never know when something you wrote may stimulate them to change their behavior.
Heather
My kids don 't yell I hate you or anything - but I could buy them 20 things they ask for in a store and when they ask for the 21st and its like the sky is falling I will say - "we'll have to wait a bit - because we have a limited budget here - if you wanted to put back something else and get this instead that would be ok" . There have been other times where they have wanted something that I know I can't get this week - and I will say "That would make a great b-day present for you" and sometimes this is well received. I can understand the mothers frustration with the stress of providing more and more. Where does it end? For me one of the things I notice is that some adults - myself included do not always behave in the best possible way - and yet we somehow expect kids to behave perfectly. There is a learning curve for everyone involved.
It sounds that the issue here is the resentment the mother is feeling - whether she wants to work or not it seems that it is motivated by the desire for material things rather then time and energy. I think it boils down to what you said about the kids being needy - and maybe they are not sure what exactly their "need" is but are trying to fill it with outside things. Adults often do this with shopping.
You know it is interesting that she is reading your pages. I am sure that there are people out there that may read them - and they aren't going to jump into unschooling overnight....and they may never... but it is sowing seeds and you never know when something you wrote may stimulate them to change their behavior.
Heather
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 3:17 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] about spoiled kids, but not from an unschooler
I don't want to make a form letter that says "I only answer the publically
asked questions of unschoolers," but at some point... Well, I hope something
helped her, but I thought this might be interesting to unschoolers, and I
thought to ask whether you think my whole theory on spoiled kids has to do with
attachment parented unschooled kids, not just any kids. I hope not.
(Also thought that "spoiled" kids won't want plastic toys from piano
teachers, only kids whose moms never buy them plastic toys. <g>)
Okay, to this, which was by e-mail from someone I'd never heard of:
==============================================================================
======================
I was just reading your articles and I had a question for you.
Our two girls, ages 7 and 8 1/2 are very smart and expressive. They are
outspoken and upset when they don't get their way.
It always happens that when we spend a day out with them and buy them things
or take them places, and then they may not get just one thing because either
it is too late, or we just don't have the money - they get angry, yell, tell
us they hate us, etc. The older one more than the younger. I end up getting
really angry at them and try to defend our situation. Then I have told them
they are spoiled and not grateful for everything we have tried to do for them.
I should add that we haven't had a lot of money lately because I have been a
stay at home mom. Life has been miserable not being able to enjoy things the
way we used to. But I think I am returning to work in a few weeks and I am
afraid that now they will really be thinking they can have everything they
want. Mostly because I am so happy to finally get some money in my hands. But I
want to teach some values.
I need some help on how to address this problem. I know I over react. It
really hurts my feelings. I try to talk to them about how we want to take them
places and do things, but they have to understand we can only do so much. They
seem to understand, but when it actually happens, they just can't be patient
or just enjoy all the other things they had going for them throughout the
day.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
===============================================
Are you homeschooling?
Are you on the UnschoolingDiscussion list or AlwaysLearning?
If your girls are in school, the things I write might be removed from the
realities of your life.
Let me know a little more about your situation.
I can say that saying "you are spoiled and ungrateful" wouldn't be
recommended by anyone, I'm pretty sure. Saying "That makes me wish we hadn't gone,
because it spoiled all the fun" might be closer. Talking about yourself is
fair. Telling them they're bad is insult to injury. Should they not have felt
injured? Maybe. But telling them their feelings are wrong is only going to
make it worse.
Sandra
===============================
I agree. I definitely reacted in a way that I shouldn't. But they are very
strong willed kids, very creative and have no problems expressing their
feelings. That can be difficult at times, because they often hurt mine when they
don't get their way.
No, they are not home schooled. I have to work and I don't have the patience
to teach academics. I love the school they are in.
I want to teach them to enjoy the things we can do for them, but not be so
angry when they don't get their way. I want them to learn patience. I know that
their behavior comes from some of our behaviors as parents, it is just hard
to recognize them when they are happening.
Thank you for your input.
=======================================
But they are very strong willed kids, very creative and have no problems
expressing their feelings. That can be difficult at times, because they often
hurt mine when they don't get their way.
I used to get my feelings hurt when my kids were younger, but I worked
consciously on getting over that. They need to have a safe place to practice
interpersonals, and they NEED home as a haven to relax, especially as they go to
school.
School is stressful. It is a HUGE wad of not getting your way.
Kids at home get lots of their parents in all kinds of ways. Schoolkids
often get a lot of parents-backing-up-school time about homework and bedtimes
and get-your-clothes-ready.
Trying to make home less school focussed might help. Spending more
one-on-one time with the girls might help.
With my kids to keep them from being competitive at a time and dollar level,
we purposely and early on did very different things and got them very
different things, discussing all the while why this or that thing would be ideal
for this particular child. They all knew they would have special stuff and
experiences too, so they haven't been the kinds of kids who say "You spent $10
on her, you have to spend $10 on me." We spent time recently with a family
that was exactly that way, but partly it might be because the dad died a few
years ago and the kids don't have as much opportunity to be alone with the mom.
-=-I want to teach them to enjoy the things we can do for them, but not be
so angry when they don't get their way. I want them to learn patience.-=-
If you weren't invested in schooling, I could say some things about this.
Teaching and learning rarely happen in conjunction. There are things you
can't "teach" them, but you can help them learn. It would help if you, at least,
would look into the difference. If you see opportunities through which they
can learn, and you could discuss the situation with them without feeling
like you're "teaching" them, it would change your relationships in good ways.
Here's something about that:
_http://sandradodd.com/wordswords_ (http://sandradodd.com/wordswords)
My overriding guess is the kids are feeling needy and don't feel they
should. You don't need to discuss that with them, just give them more of yourself,
more casual touch, more attention, more listening, more personal cushion.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/20/2005 5:01:32 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
bacwoodz@... writes:
maybe they are not sure what exactly their "need" is but are trying to fill
it with outside things. Adults often do this with shopping.
I do that.
I just learned to get my fix in a thrift store or a crafts shop or flea
market.
-=-
You know it is interesting that she is reading your pages. I am sure that
there are people out there that may read them - and they aren't going to jump
into unschooling overnight....and they may never... but it is sowing seeds and
you never know when something you wrote may stimulate them to change their
behavior.-=-
I get non-unschoolers finding the video games page quite a bit, and a few
have found the anti-spanking page. I guess she was looking for info on spoiled
children and found that article, sandradodd/spoiled.
Maybe, though, with her kids in school, some of the suggestions I made are
just dangerous. <g> I'm kinda joking but not totally. I think having a kid
in high school who doesn't have a bedtime or curfew would be insanely
dangerous. With my kids, though, it works great. I think the biggest difference is
their lack of school-assigned "peers" to pressure them to get away with
more, more, more. They just never did learn to be sneaky. They never felt the
anger and resentment many teens have against their parents and other adults.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bacwoodz@... writes:
maybe they are not sure what exactly their "need" is but are trying to fill
it with outside things. Adults often do this with shopping.
I do that.
I just learned to get my fix in a thrift store or a crafts shop or flea
market.
-=-
You know it is interesting that she is reading your pages. I am sure that
there are people out there that may read them - and they aren't going to jump
into unschooling overnight....and they may never... but it is sowing seeds and
you never know when something you wrote may stimulate them to change their
behavior.-=-
I get non-unschoolers finding the video games page quite a bit, and a few
have found the anti-spanking page. I guess she was looking for info on spoiled
children and found that article, sandradodd/spoiled.
Maybe, though, with her kids in school, some of the suggestions I made are
just dangerous. <g> I'm kinda joking but not totally. I think having a kid
in high school who doesn't have a bedtime or curfew would be insanely
dangerous. With my kids, though, it works great. I think the biggest difference is
their lack of school-assigned "peers" to pressure them to get away with
more, more, more. They just never did learn to be sneaky. They never felt the
anger and resentment many teens have against their parents and other adults.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amy Childs
> I don't want to make a form letter that says "I only answer thepublically asked questions of unschoolers," but at some point...
I am quickly skimming and i don't usually post, but I just had to take
a moment to say (publically) to you Sandra, you are SO AMAZINGLY
PATIENT with people and I don't quite know how you do it.
~amy
[email protected]
> I am quickly skimming and i don't usually post, but I just had to takeThanks.
> a moment to say (publically) to you Sandra, you are SO AMAZINGLY
> PATIENT with people and I don't quite know how you do it.
>
What I often think when I'm being patient with someone is that there is a
child on the other side of that communication whose life might be about to
become a lot happier. I do it for their children, and for the hope that my
children (and yours; other unschoolers') will have more adults to run into when
they're grown who were also brought up gently and happily and richly (regardless
of money--not financial riches, but a richly textured life).
When I'm impatient (which my detractors will tell you is ALL THE TIME), it's
when it seems the person asking the questions is unwilling to change,
uninterested in focussing on her children's happiness, and unlikely to add positively
to the group experience.
Some people are easily swayed, either because they're insecure or they're SO
balanced on the fence that they really haven't begun to decide whether
unschooling will work for them. When someone comes along who's honestly curious,
it's fun to answer those questions and pursue those "what ifs," but when one is
hostile and defensive and seems intent on showing that unschooling is stupid,
that their children are bigger/better/smarter than the average everyday
unschoolers discussed on the list, etc., my patience evaporates in the heat. I can
only last a little while when I feel I'm assisting someone (however ind
irectly) to plant doubts and negativity in discussions that can be otherwise really
postive and hope-filled.
I'm moving files from two older computers to a new computer, and came across
a ten year old set of writings, chats mostly, which were once up on a time
sent out on request as "The Unschooling Barrage." I read some of a couple of
them, and remembered why "the AOL days" were so vibrant and lifechanging. It
was the days before personal webpages, and sometimes the best one could hope
for was to download a text file, or to join a users' group. The message boards
at AOL were the most modern and easily accessible thing going at the time.
Once a week I ran a two-hour live chat on unschooling. Deb Cunefare helped
on lots of them, when they were hosted by the homeschooling forum and we (and
some others still around) were volunteering at AOL. For each hour of work we
did, we got one free hour of AOL, which was then $3 an hour for online time.
Then for a while I did chats for Home Education Magazine (after AOL went to a
fixed-rate and volunteering was much more frustration than it was worth).
Not long after, AOL put people in charge of the homeschooling area who
weren't even homeschoolers at all, and the magic all ebbed away. But by then the
internet was accessible to lots of people, and people scattered.
The only reason it's related to the question of patience and motive, I
suppose, is that I was just this morning reading answers to the same kinds of
questions, but ten years ago. <bwg> I'm planning to make those old documents
available to read online, too. I'll announce it here when I have them up.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]