A question about rewards
beanmommy2
Hi there,
This question is not about my own kids, but about the piano studio I
run in my home. I'm thinking of implementing something new this
fall, and while it appeals to me, I'm not sure if it's at odds with
what I think about learning and rewards.
Anyway, I was thinking of having a spreadsheet for each piano
student with a little points sheet. At each lesson, they would get,
say, a point for remembering to bring all their books, a point for
completing any written assignments given, etc. [I would not give
them points for how much/long/often they practiced, for various
reasons.]
They could them get extra points at any time, if they wanted, for
things like memorizing a piece, playing an informal "concert" for
family or friends, etc.
Then, I would buy various little candies, keychains, various dollar
store toys, and maybe once a month have "open store" when they could
purchase various things with their points earned. Maybe have the
option, especially for older kids, that they could save a lot of
their points and "buy" a Target gift card or something.
The reason this appeals to me is that I could picture my students
liking it: I'm hoping it would give a more "fun" and special feel to
the whole studio and coming over for lessons. I also could see some
of the kids liking a tangible way of keeping track of their
progress, and taking advantage of doing some of the extra things,
like memorizing pieces.
But I am hesitant ... I remember reading a book called "Punished by
Rewards." Would something like this ruin natural learning or
enthusiasm? Do you think your own kids would like or benefit from
something like that? Is it "too schoolish"?
Thanks for your opinions,
Jenny
This question is not about my own kids, but about the piano studio I
run in my home. I'm thinking of implementing something new this
fall, and while it appeals to me, I'm not sure if it's at odds with
what I think about learning and rewards.
Anyway, I was thinking of having a spreadsheet for each piano
student with a little points sheet. At each lesson, they would get,
say, a point for remembering to bring all their books, a point for
completing any written assignments given, etc. [I would not give
them points for how much/long/often they practiced, for various
reasons.]
They could them get extra points at any time, if they wanted, for
things like memorizing a piece, playing an informal "concert" for
family or friends, etc.
Then, I would buy various little candies, keychains, various dollar
store toys, and maybe once a month have "open store" when they could
purchase various things with their points earned. Maybe have the
option, especially for older kids, that they could save a lot of
their points and "buy" a Target gift card or something.
The reason this appeals to me is that I could picture my students
liking it: I'm hoping it would give a more "fun" and special feel to
the whole studio and coming over for lessons. I also could see some
of the kids liking a tangible way of keeping track of their
progress, and taking advantage of doing some of the extra things,
like memorizing pieces.
But I am hesitant ... I remember reading a book called "Punished by
Rewards." Would something like this ruin natural learning or
enthusiasm? Do you think your own kids would like or benefit from
something like that? Is it "too schoolish"?
Thanks for your opinions,
Jenny
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/19/2005 2:22:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
beanmommy2@... writes:
kids were in groups it may strike up unnecessary competition between them.
I'm not sure what I'd do in this situation because I understand the desire to
make the lessons fun and exciting but I also see that it could have negative
side effects.
I've never read that book you mentioned but I do know that on several
occasions in my son's K class last year, there were reward situations that didn't
quite work out. Example: teacher had a basket with goodies for the end of the
week and many kids never got anything because their behavior was never "good
enough". The children would line up outside waiting for their transportation
and several would have treats and many wouldn't. There would be bickering among
the kids and name calling, "you're a bad kid so you don't get any" or "Ms. So&
So doesn't like you." Once a kid took another kids' treat and ate it. Not a
cool thing to observe. And better yet, parent's were asked to help stock
these treats and I remember one Mom brought those push pop things and her kid
never got any and he was in hysterics one day because he "couldn't even have his
own Mommy's treats."
It probably depends on the kids, really.
How about just a constant thing after each lesson? Or once a week? Like a
movie and popcorn after the week is through? Maybe they could each bring games
to play one day a week? I don't know your availability or desire to have a
group thing in your home or if they'd even want to.
I'm not a big fan of rewards systems but I guess they work in some
situations. Like my old preschool class, we were encouraged to give stuff for good
behavior but I couldn't stand to leave kids out so I gave everybody something and
the kids who did "really well" got two. I guess if they all understand that
they may not get the rewards and they are OK with it, then it would work. If
you have the time and desire to help set personal goals for each kid so that
they are achieving their own things, that could work. Then it doesn't matter
that the other kids always do well and they may not, it becomes all about
themselves and what they want to accomplish and not competing with eachother.
Boy Do I blab, blab, blab
sorry :o)
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
beanmommy2@... writes:
> Do you think your own kids would like or benefit fromDo several children come together and/or know eachother well? I think if the
> something like that? Is it "too schoolish"?
kids were in groups it may strike up unnecessary competition between them.
I'm not sure what I'd do in this situation because I understand the desire to
make the lessons fun and exciting but I also see that it could have negative
side effects.
I've never read that book you mentioned but I do know that on several
occasions in my son's K class last year, there were reward situations that didn't
quite work out. Example: teacher had a basket with goodies for the end of the
week and many kids never got anything because their behavior was never "good
enough". The children would line up outside waiting for their transportation
and several would have treats and many wouldn't. There would be bickering among
the kids and name calling, "you're a bad kid so you don't get any" or "Ms. So&
So doesn't like you." Once a kid took another kids' treat and ate it. Not a
cool thing to observe. And better yet, parent's were asked to help stock
these treats and I remember one Mom brought those push pop things and her kid
never got any and he was in hysterics one day because he "couldn't even have his
own Mommy's treats."
It probably depends on the kids, really.
How about just a constant thing after each lesson? Or once a week? Like a
movie and popcorn after the week is through? Maybe they could each bring games
to play one day a week? I don't know your availability or desire to have a
group thing in your home or if they'd even want to.
I'm not a big fan of rewards systems but I guess they work in some
situations. Like my old preschool class, we were encouraged to give stuff for good
behavior but I couldn't stand to leave kids out so I gave everybody something and
the kids who did "really well" got two. I guess if they all understand that
they may not get the rewards and they are OK with it, then it would work. If
you have the time and desire to help set personal goals for each kid so that
they are achieving their own things, that could work. Then it doesn't matter
that the other kids always do well and they may not, it becomes all about
themselves and what they want to accomplish and not competing with eachother.
Boy Do I blab, blab, blab
sorry :o)
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/19/2005 12:22:30 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
beanmommy2@... writes:
[I would not give
them points for how much/long/often they practiced, for various
reasons.]
Would any of those various reasons apply to the other things?
If you reduce it to principles does that help you answer your question?
Piano lessons aren't such an unschooling thing in any case. I would have,
personally, as a kid, gotten totally into earning points. I would've done any
crazy thing to get little toys. But I was school-trained. <g> It was a
game I liked.
I think if a kid's going to take any formal class or lessons, they've signed
up for the oddities and particularities of that thing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
beanmommy2@... writes:
[I would not give
them points for how much/long/often they practiced, for various
reasons.]
Would any of those various reasons apply to the other things?
If you reduce it to principles does that help you answer your question?
Piano lessons aren't such an unschooling thing in any case. I would have,
personally, as a kid, gotten totally into earning points. I would've done any
crazy thing to get little toys. But I was school-trained. <g> It was a
game I liked.
I think if a kid's going to take any formal class or lessons, they've signed
up for the oddities and particularities of that thing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<But I am hesitant ... I remember reading a book called "Punished by
Rewards." Would something like this ruin natural learning or
enthusiasm? Do you think your own kids would like or benefit from
something like that? Is it "too schoolish"?>>>>
This is exactly the kind of thing that would likely eliminate your school
from my list of possibles if Jayn wanted to do piano.
However we are Unschoolers and do not use extrinsic motivations - for all
the reasons Alfie Kohn talks about.
What do your current students think about this proposal?
Robyn L. Coburn
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Rewards." Would something like this ruin natural learning or
enthusiasm? Do you think your own kids would like or benefit from
something like that? Is it "too schoolish"?>>>>
This is exactly the kind of thing that would likely eliminate your school
from my list of possibles if Jayn wanted to do piano.
However we are Unschoolers and do not use extrinsic motivations - for all
the reasons Alfie Kohn talks about.
What do your current students think about this proposal?
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 6/17/2005
Angela S.
When I was a kid I took piano lessons and the teacher gave out full-sized
candy bars after each lesson, irregardless of how you did. I loved piano
lessons and I loved the candy bars because we didn't get them often. My
sister however, confessed as an adult, that she only took piano lessons for
the candy bar and that my parents could have saved $6 a week by buying her a
candy bar. LOL! Not sure if this helps any but I thought I'd share it
since your question reminded me of it.
I personally think that rewards take away from the intrinsic value of the
lessons if the lessons are something the children have chosen. But often
kids are forced to take piano lesson because they are good for them. If you
have students like that, the reward system might make piano lessons a nicer
place to be.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
candy bars after each lesson, irregardless of how you did. I loved piano
lessons and I loved the candy bars because we didn't get them often. My
sister however, confessed as an adult, that she only took piano lessons for
the candy bar and that my parents could have saved $6 a week by buying her a
candy bar. LOL! Not sure if this helps any but I thought I'd share it
since your question reminded me of it.
I personally think that rewards take away from the intrinsic value of the
lessons if the lessons are something the children have chosen. But often
kids are forced to take piano lesson because they are good for them. If you
have students like that, the reward system might make piano lessons a nicer
place to be.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[email protected]
The only time I really liked piano lessons, was when I really liked the
music I was given. We had a sort of flamboyant teacher that gave us a lot of
show-type tunes, much that I hated or had never heard.
But I remember one time a friend played a very difficult song that I loved,
and I asked my teacher if I could learn that one. He got me the music, and
because I liked it I tried very hard. It was way beyond my ability at the
time, but I remember spending hours and hours that week practicing it.
I sort of learned it, but not perfectly, and my teacher closed the book on
it and said "It's too hard for you" and gave me something simple. I felt so
crushed, and hated piano lessons after that. It probably wasn't even 3 months
later I talked my mom into letting me quit.
I like the idea of the candy bar :o) I might have kept going with that, but
I think a more encouraging, challenging teacher would have been the ticket.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
music I was given. We had a sort of flamboyant teacher that gave us a lot of
show-type tunes, much that I hated or had never heard.
But I remember one time a friend played a very difficult song that I loved,
and I asked my teacher if I could learn that one. He got me the music, and
because I liked it I tried very hard. It was way beyond my ability at the
time, but I remember spending hours and hours that week practicing it.
I sort of learned it, but not perfectly, and my teacher closed the book on
it and said "It's too hard for you" and gave me something simple. I felt so
crushed, and hated piano lessons after that. It probably wasn't even 3 months
later I talked my mom into letting me quit.
I like the idea of the candy bar :o) I might have kept going with that, but
I think a more encouraging, challenging teacher would have been the ticket.
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheila
"I'm thinking of implementing something new this
fall, and while it appeals to me, I'm not sure if it's at odds with
what I think about learning and rewards.
Anyway, I was thinking of having a spreadsheet for each piano
student with a little points sheet. At each lesson, they would get,
say, a point for remembering to bring all their books, a point for
completing any written assignments given, etc. [I would not give
them points for how much/long/often they practiced, for various
reasons.]"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't like reward systems like that at all. I don't even like them at the dentist. You know, the "if you're good, you get a prize after I clean your teeth". If my kids go to the dentist, they go because they want to have their teeth cleaned, not because they want a prize. If they want a cheap prize or cheap candy, I'll just buy them for them.
Sheila
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fall, and while it appeals to me, I'm not sure if it's at odds with
what I think about learning and rewards.
Anyway, I was thinking of having a spreadsheet for each piano
student with a little points sheet. At each lesson, they would get,
say, a point for remembering to bring all their books, a point for
completing any written assignments given, etc. [I would not give
them points for how much/long/often they practiced, for various
reasons.]"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't like reward systems like that at all. I don't even like them at the dentist. You know, the "if you're good, you get a prize after I clean your teeth". If my kids go to the dentist, they go because they want to have their teeth cleaned, not because they want a prize. If they want a cheap prize or cheap candy, I'll just buy them for them.
Sheila
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
beanmommy2
--- In [email protected], b229d655@c... wrote:
for an elementary music teacher on maternity leave. She had a system
of giving each class a "ribbon" at the end of each class, their
behavior would determine the color. When I was hired, the principal
raved to me about this ribbon system, and I was expected to continue
it.
I remember one class in particular where their regular classroom
teacher would assign extra homework if they came back with any less
than the "best color ribbon." This class was always so stressed and
angry at each other, looking to see who would "blow it" for the
whole class. I believe I finally got smart and picked up the ribbon
when class began and said, "Here it is. You're getting it. It's
done. Now let's have class."
One of the things I hated about it (other than how all it seemed to
do was upset the kids) was that it was so vague. What does it mean
to say, "You were good today" or "Mm, you weren't so good today."
********************************************************************
More thoughts about my idea for piano ....
It would not be in a group setting. It would *not* be the kind of
thing like, "Johnny, you can pick a prize today, but Suzy, you
can't." The points or prizes would not be announced or posted
anywhere, although I guess some kids could choose to discuss it if
they wanted to on their own time, but that's their choice and I
could actually picture some of them getting a kick out of that.
Also, I think the only reason I would even consider something like
this is because it's so concrete. Bring your book, get a point.
Choose to memorize a piece, get a point. Or not. It's not a matter
of trying to please me, or me saying, "Johnny plays better than
Suzy." I remember my piano teacher when I was a kid would actually
grade each lesson, and I hated that, and I would hate doing it as a
teacher. How do I even decide something like that?
As far as me not wanting to give points about practice time ... I
don't want to encourage more "minutes" spent at the piano, because I
think a lot of times kids (like me) will check the clock a hundred
times, hoping they're "almost done" and deliberately wasting time
and not even enjoying it or really even doing anything. I don't want
to encourage time on the bench; if fact, I want to move them as far
away as possible from being concerned about "time." In fact, I hope
to make them more efficient so they can do what they want in *less*
time, not more.
Thanks for the feedback. Still mulling this one over ...
Jenny
> I've never read that book you mentioned but I do know that onseveral
> occasions in my son's K class last year, there were rewardsituations that didn't
> quite work out. Example: teacher had a basket with goodies forthe end of the
> week and many kids never got anything because their behavior wasnever "good
> enough". The children would line up outside waiting for theirtransportation
> and several would have treats and many wouldn't. There would bebickering among
> the kids and name calling, "you're a bad kid so you don't get any"or "Ms. So&
> So doesn't like you." Once a kid took another kids' treat and ateit. Not a
> cool thing to observe.Gosh, that is awful! But I'm not surprised. Once I did a 6-week job
for an elementary music teacher on maternity leave. She had a system
of giving each class a "ribbon" at the end of each class, their
behavior would determine the color. When I was hired, the principal
raved to me about this ribbon system, and I was expected to continue
it.
I remember one class in particular where their regular classroom
teacher would assign extra homework if they came back with any less
than the "best color ribbon." This class was always so stressed and
angry at each other, looking to see who would "blow it" for the
whole class. I believe I finally got smart and picked up the ribbon
when class began and said, "Here it is. You're getting it. It's
done. Now let's have class."
One of the things I hated about it (other than how all it seemed to
do was upset the kids) was that it was so vague. What does it mean
to say, "You were good today" or "Mm, you weren't so good today."
********************************************************************
More thoughts about my idea for piano ....
It would not be in a group setting. It would *not* be the kind of
thing like, "Johnny, you can pick a prize today, but Suzy, you
can't." The points or prizes would not be announced or posted
anywhere, although I guess some kids could choose to discuss it if
they wanted to on their own time, but that's their choice and I
could actually picture some of them getting a kick out of that.
Also, I think the only reason I would even consider something like
this is because it's so concrete. Bring your book, get a point.
Choose to memorize a piece, get a point. Or not. It's not a matter
of trying to please me, or me saying, "Johnny plays better than
Suzy." I remember my piano teacher when I was a kid would actually
grade each lesson, and I hated that, and I would hate doing it as a
teacher. How do I even decide something like that?
As far as me not wanting to give points about practice time ... I
don't want to encourage more "minutes" spent at the piano, because I
think a lot of times kids (like me) will check the clock a hundred
times, hoping they're "almost done" and deliberately wasting time
and not even enjoying it or really even doing anything. I don't want
to encourage time on the bench; if fact, I want to move them as far
away as possible from being concerned about "time." In fact, I hope
to make them more efficient so they can do what they want in *less*
time, not more.
Thanks for the feedback. Still mulling this one over ...
Jenny
Elizabeth Hill
**My sister however, confessed as an adult, that she only took piano
lessons for the candy bar and that my parents could have saved $6 a week
by buying her a candy bar. LOL!**
Fun story, and it made me think.
I understand the desire to have students enthusiastic about showing up
for lessons, but in a perfect world, in which one had a choice of
available students, wouldn't the most gratifying students be the ones
that were enthusiastic about playing the piano, and came every week for
that reason?
**If my kids go to the dentist, they go because they want to have their
teeth cleaned, not because they want a prize. **
I my dentist gives a small toy, (not candy), to every child patient. I
think the idea is to have the visit end on a positive note, so the kid
doesn't feel wildly negative about coming the next time.
Betsy
lessons for the candy bar and that my parents could have saved $6 a week
by buying her a candy bar. LOL!**
Fun story, and it made me think.
I understand the desire to have students enthusiastic about showing up
for lessons, but in a perfect world, in which one had a choice of
available students, wouldn't the most gratifying students be the ones
that were enthusiastic about playing the piano, and came every week for
that reason?
**If my kids go to the dentist, they go because they want to have their
teeth cleaned, not because they want a prize. **
I my dentist gives a small toy, (not candy), to every child patient. I
think the idea is to have the visit end on a positive note, so the kid
doesn't feel wildly negative about coming the next time.
Betsy
K Krejci
Oh, Jenny - I would not go down that path, no matter
what appeal it may hold. I started piano when I was 5
(that was a VERY long time ago) and loved it until I
got a teacher who my mother adored (which meant my
opinion was irrelevant). Her use of such 'systems' of
grading/scoring/etc. as well as her pedagogical
approach absolutely killed my natural enthusiasm and
ability. When I was 28, I almost got some of it back,
thanks to a professor with an amazing ability to reach
me. I could see it on the horizon but could never get
closer and it makes me sad.
You cannot know what other pressures are pushing your
students. I was shy, easily embarassed and did not
seek attention but when I played, I floated in the
clouds and could forget the unpleasantness of our
household. Then this teacher came with her 'rewards'
and 'scoring' which my mother embraced
enthusiastically and suddenly piano became one more
stick with which I could get beaten.
I taught for a year in a public school as an
instrumental music teacher. I was hired on a Friday
and school started the following Monday. I was
instructed to give the students stickers, candy, gum,
pencils, etc. I was shocked and appalled. The older
kids resented that I did not follow that path at first
but they started to enjoy playing together rather than
as competition. My beginners never knew the
difference and were the most amazingly enthusiastic
bunch who ever made noise in a band room. We just had
fun. My private students felt the same way.
Just love the music, infect them with the joy of it
and let the details go. Some of the best fun and most
excitement my students and I had was when we were
'unprepared.' Then it was an adventure we could
share!
Kathy
--- beanmommy2 <beanmommy2@...> wrote:
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
__________________________________________________
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what appeal it may hold. I started piano when I was 5
(that was a VERY long time ago) and loved it until I
got a teacher who my mother adored (which meant my
opinion was irrelevant). Her use of such 'systems' of
grading/scoring/etc. as well as her pedagogical
approach absolutely killed my natural enthusiasm and
ability. When I was 28, I almost got some of it back,
thanks to a professor with an amazing ability to reach
me. I could see it on the horizon but could never get
closer and it makes me sad.
You cannot know what other pressures are pushing your
students. I was shy, easily embarassed and did not
seek attention but when I played, I floated in the
clouds and could forget the unpleasantness of our
household. Then this teacher came with her 'rewards'
and 'scoring' which my mother embraced
enthusiastically and suddenly piano became one more
stick with which I could get beaten.
I taught for a year in a public school as an
instrumental music teacher. I was hired on a Friday
and school started the following Monday. I was
instructed to give the students stickers, candy, gum,
pencils, etc. I was shocked and appalled. The older
kids resented that I did not follow that path at first
but they started to enjoy playing together rather than
as competition. My beginners never knew the
difference and were the most amazingly enthusiastic
bunch who ever made noise in a band room. We just had
fun. My private students felt the same way.
Just love the music, infect them with the joy of it
and let the details go. Some of the best fun and most
excitement my students and I had was when we were
'unprepared.' Then it was an adventure we could
share!
Kathy
--- beanmommy2 <beanmommy2@...> wrote:
> Hi there,It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
>
> This question is not about my own kids, but about
> the piano studio I
> run in my home. I'm thinking of implementing
> something new this
> fall, and while it appeals to me, I'm not sure if
> it's at odds with
> what I think about learning and rewards.
>
> Anyway, I was thinking of having a spreadsheet for
> each piano
> student with a little points sheet. At each lesson,
> they would get,
> say, a point for remembering to bring all their
> books, a point for
> completing any written assignments given, etc. [I
> would not give
> them points for how much/long/often they practiced,
> for various
> reasons.]
>
> They could them get extra points at any time, if
> they wanted, for
> things like memorizing a piece, playing an informal
> "concert" for
> family or friends, etc.
>
> Then, I would buy various little candies, keychains,
> various dollar
> store toys, and maybe once a month have "open store"
> when they could
> purchase various things with their points earned.
> Maybe have the
> option, especially for older kids, that they could
> save a lot of
> their points and "buy" a Target gift card or
> something.
>
> The reason this appeals to me is that I could
> picture my students
> liking it: I'm hoping it would give a more "fun" and
> special feel to
> the whole studio and coming over for lessons. I also
> could see some
> of the kids liking a tangible way of keeping track
> of their
> progress, and taking advantage of doing some of the
> extra things,
> like memorizing pieces.
>
> But I am hesitant ... I remember reading a book
> called "Punished by
> Rewards." Would something like this ruin natural
> learning or
> enthusiasm? Do you think your own kids would like or
> benefit from
> something like that? Is it "too schoolish"?
>
> Thanks for your opinions,
> Jenny
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files
> area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
>
> [email protected]
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
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Angela S.
Oh definitely. I think it was just a waste of money. She never really
liked playing piano all that much and hasn't played hardly at all since
stopping lessons as a kid. I, on the other hand, went because I liked it
and I still play occasionally. (I just have a keyboard now but I enjoy it
and esp. love to play holiday music.)
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
liked playing piano all that much and hasn't played hardly at all since
stopping lessons as a kid. I, on the other hand, went because I liked it
and I still play occasionally. (I just have a keyboard now but I enjoy it
and esp. love to play holiday music.)
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
> I understand the desire to have students enthusiastic about showing up
> for lessons, but in a perfect world, in which one had a choice of
> available students, wouldn't the most gratifying students be the ones
> that were enthusiastic about playing the piano, and came every week for
> that reason?
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/19/2005 8:58:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
beanmommy2@... writes:
guess it will come down to the kids. Unschooled children may not understand or
enjoy the rewards because most likely they are there because they want to be and
will put their all in to it. Schooled kids may relate to the rewards and
appreciate them, especially if they are there more for the parents. I liked the
idea of letting the kids try out some music they choose. "Learn the basics
and we'll work our hardest on your favorite piece."
I bet all the kids would enjoy treats or prizes. Maybe if you know in your
own mind that certain kids need to remember their books or whatever and you
begin to notice they do it, just say, "Hey, I noticed your bringing all your
stuff lately," and just give them something because your proud and that's it. No
reward really, just noticing their efforts and getting on with things.
Tonight my son was desperately trying to ride his bike and he had no notion
of rewards or prizes and frankly neither did I but when we came in I was so
proud and he was pooped and kinda discouraged cuz he's the type that enjoys
instant gratification and wants to know how NOW. Well, I took out some treats and
got a movie and popped it in and we just enjoyed ourselves. I asked him if he
was ready for a new helmet as his is kinda toddler-ish with little animals
all over it. He said yeah he'd like a new one and so we'll go and get it. Not
really rewards to him, just my way of saying I'm proud-along with SAYING "I'm
proud."
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
beanmommy2@... writes:
> Thanks for the feedback. Still mulling this one over ...It's kinda tuff. I read all the responses and they all have a point. I
guess it will come down to the kids. Unschooled children may not understand or
enjoy the rewards because most likely they are there because they want to be and
will put their all in to it. Schooled kids may relate to the rewards and
appreciate them, especially if they are there more for the parents. I liked the
idea of letting the kids try out some music they choose. "Learn the basics
and we'll work our hardest on your favorite piece."
I bet all the kids would enjoy treats or prizes. Maybe if you know in your
own mind that certain kids need to remember their books or whatever and you
begin to notice they do it, just say, "Hey, I noticed your bringing all your
stuff lately," and just give them something because your proud and that's it. No
reward really, just noticing their efforts and getting on with things.
Tonight my son was desperately trying to ride his bike and he had no notion
of rewards or prizes and frankly neither did I but when we came in I was so
proud and he was pooped and kinda discouraged cuz he's the type that enjoys
instant gratification and wants to know how NOW. Well, I took out some treats and
got a movie and popped it in and we just enjoyed ourselves. I asked him if he
was ready for a new helmet as his is kinda toddler-ish with little animals
all over it. He said yeah he'd like a new one and so we'll go and get it. Not
really rewards to him, just my way of saying I'm proud-along with SAYING "I'm
proud."
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], "beanmommy2"
<beanmommy2@y...> wrote:
==
participate, or if there is something else you could do to help make
things more special or to have a more tangible way to track their
progress.
Some kids might really thrive on the rewards, and some might feel
pressured and like they did something wrong when they didn't get a
point (that would have been me, and it would be my son, too). So I
would not start it with all your kids, but only with those that like
the idea, with the caveat that they can change their minds at any
time. For some of your students, rewards may just be the spoonful of
sugar that they need to make the parent-prescribed medicine go down.
And as I mentioned, there are other things you could talk over doing
with them, too.
Maybe some of them would like a more mentoring relationship, where
they get to see you play some of your favorite music sometimes, and
they can learn from that. As someone mentioned, maybe some of them
would like to choose different music.
I don't know if you teach how to play songs by ear, but when I took
piano, that was where I put my focus -- I can still play "For He's a
Jolly Good Fellow" with harmony, but I can barely read the bass line
on any piece of music. Some of your kids might enjoy focusing on
that, or on composing their own simple pieces.
Maybe you already do all of this, or maybe none of this fits with the
expectations that you currently have set for "piano lessons." But
since you came to an unschooling list with the question, my answer is
to focus on each individual and try to help them with their own goals
-- to use the "relationship-based" approach that works so well in
unschooling.
Peace,
Amy
<beanmommy2@y...> wrote:
==
> The reason this appeals to me is that I could picture my studentsI would bring it up with each student and ask if they'd like to
> liking it: I'm hoping it would give a more "fun" and special feel to
> the whole studio and coming over for lessons. I also could see some
> of the kids liking a tangible way of keeping track of their
> progress, and taking advantage of doing some of the extra things,
> like memorizing pieces. ==
participate, or if there is something else you could do to help make
things more special or to have a more tangible way to track their
progress.
Some kids might really thrive on the rewards, and some might feel
pressured and like they did something wrong when they didn't get a
point (that would have been me, and it would be my son, too). So I
would not start it with all your kids, but only with those that like
the idea, with the caveat that they can change their minds at any
time. For some of your students, rewards may just be the spoonful of
sugar that they need to make the parent-prescribed medicine go down.
And as I mentioned, there are other things you could talk over doing
with them, too.
Maybe some of them would like a more mentoring relationship, where
they get to see you play some of your favorite music sometimes, and
they can learn from that. As someone mentioned, maybe some of them
would like to choose different music.
I don't know if you teach how to play songs by ear, but when I took
piano, that was where I put my focus -- I can still play "For He's a
Jolly Good Fellow" with harmony, but I can barely read the bass line
on any piece of music. Some of your kids might enjoy focusing on
that, or on composing their own simple pieces.
Maybe you already do all of this, or maybe none of this fits with the
expectations that you currently have set for "piano lessons." But
since you came to an unschooling list with the question, my answer is
to focus on each individual and try to help them with their own goals
-- to use the "relationship-based" approach that works so well in
unschooling.
Peace,
Amy
Robyn Coburn
<<<< Some kids might really thrive on the rewards, and some might feel
pressured and like they did something wrong when they didn't get a
point (that would have been me, and it would be my son, too). So I
would not start it with all your kids, but only with those that like
the idea, with the caveat that they can change their minds at any
time. For some of your students, rewards may just be the spoonful of
sugar that they need to make the parent-prescribed medicine go down.>>>>
This was pretty much why I asked what the current students thought about the
idea. I pretty much envisioned them as not being Unschoolers. That doesn't
mean that they can't be treated with same respect and asked for their
preferences, however rarely that might happen in other schooling situations
for many of them.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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pressured and like they did something wrong when they didn't get a
point (that would have been me, and it would be my son, too). So I
would not start it with all your kids, but only with those that like
the idea, with the caveat that they can change their minds at any
time. For some of your students, rewards may just be the spoonful of
sugar that they need to make the parent-prescribed medicine go down.>>>>
This was pretty much why I asked what the current students thought about the
idea. I pretty much envisioned them as not being Unschoolers. That doesn't
mean that they can't be treated with same respect and asked for their
preferences, however rarely that might happen in other schooling situations
for many of them.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 6/17/2005
beanmommy2
--- In [email protected], "arcarpenter2003"
<arcarpenter@g...> wrote:
was going to bed ...
Jenny
<arcarpenter@g...> wrote:
> I would bring it up with each student and ask if they'd like toThanks for this; that same idea just occurred to me last night when I
> participate, or if there is something else you could do to help make
> things more special or to have a more tangible way to track their
> progress.
>
> Some kids might really thrive on the rewards, and some might feel
> pressured and like they did something wrong when they didn't get a
> point (that would have been me, and it would be my son, too). So I
> would not start it with all your kids, but only with those that like
> the idea, with the caveat that they can change their minds at any
> time.
was going to bed ...
Jenny
beanmommy2
--- In [email protected], K Krejci
<kraekrej@y...> wrote:
you? What did this system involve, and what part of it did you
dislike the most?
enjoy seeing the teacher take the time to get their accomplishments
written down and kept track of (privately). Did you nagged about it
even if you didn't get enough points or something?
Do you think as a kid you would have hated something like this even
if was concrete instead of subjective? Or if your teacher still
spent a lot of time finding music that you specifically liked? Or if
it didn't keep track of "how much" you practiced, but just tracked
what you completed? Or if you weren't compared to the other kids?
If you would still hate it, even with those factors, could you
explain what that would have felt like for you?
Thanks so much!
Jenny
<kraekrej@y...> wrote:
> Oh, Jenny - I would not go down that path, no matterCould you please share a little bit more why it felt like that to
> what appeal it may hold. I started piano when I was 5
> (that was a VERY long time ago) and loved it until I
> got a teacher who my mother adored (which meant my
> opinion was irrelevant). Her use of such 'systems' of
> grading/scoring/etc. as well as her pedagogical
> approach absolutely killed my natural enthusiasm and
> ability.
you? What did this system involve, and what part of it did you
dislike the most?
> suddenly piano became one moreWhat do you mean by that, exactly? I would think students would
> stick with which I could get beaten.
enjoy seeing the teacher take the time to get their accomplishments
written down and kept track of (privately). Did you nagged about it
even if you didn't get enough points or something?
Do you think as a kid you would have hated something like this even
if was concrete instead of subjective? Or if your teacher still
spent a lot of time finding music that you specifically liked? Or if
it didn't keep track of "how much" you practiced, but just tracked
what you completed? Or if you weren't compared to the other kids?
If you would still hate it, even with those factors, could you
explain what that would have felt like for you?
Thanks so much!
Jenny
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/19/2005 9:53:41 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
arcarpenter@... writes:
Some kids might really thrive on the rewards, and some might feel
pressured and like they did something wrong when they didn't get a
point (that would have been me, and it would be my son, too).
Oh, that's true. Some kids might focus all their attention on the thing
they would have gotten if they had remembered to do X, but are NOT getting
because they forgot to do X, and how much they WISHED they had done X and gotten
the thing, and there goes half an hour.
I can only read bass clef with my left hand at a piano. Anywhere else in
the world, I have to translate it in words from treble clef, and that's not
"reading," that's as painstaking as any misunderstood mathematical equation, or
as sounding out a long word phonetically only to find out it's a native
American word originally written out by the Spaniards. (Guachupangue and Pojoaque
come to mind, as towns on either side of where I grew up.)
But my left hand can read it if it ignores my brain's saying "That's a C.
C!"
I wish my piano teacher had done bass-only exercises, because the right hand
was zipping along because I did vocal and clarinet and treble cleff was my
language.
Also, I only liked old stuff. Clementi and Bach were fun. It would've been
nice to have had a teacher who could've looked at that and said, "Okay,
you'd like Telemann, then" but I was dragged through the same Thompson books as
everyone else, regardless of my interests or theirs. I despised playing the
late 19th century stuff, the schmlatzy old parlor music. But had she told me
that that's EXACTLY why most people in the 19th century learned piano,
because they didn't have the means to listen to recorded music at home yet (but
would soon), and so it was a great thing to have music at home, and especially
music people could sing along to... THAT would've made it come to life. But
she didn't tell me, probably because she didn't know or care, because what SHE
liked was Rachmaninoff and Chopin, both of which gagged me then and gag me
now. Perhaps they're the olympic sports of the keyboard, but it's not any fun
to listen to and you sure's hell can't sing along or dance a minuet.
This isn't about prizes, it's about music and playing being satisfying for
their own sake.
In school if a kid loves painting but is forced to do photography and
sculpture to get the six weeks of painting instruction, he might decide "I hate
art" and stop taking art classes. Some people who say they hate piano probably
just hate the controls and the lack of honest personal attention. A private
lesson is "attention," but if the teacher's paying more attention to the book
and the Curriculum than to the individual student, that's not very personal.
The story of the kid whose teacher said "too hard for you" was sad. They
could've done four measures at a time, or one hand at a time, or turn it into a
duet, or the teacher might have (had he had such an awareness, creativity
and willingness) found pieces that were easier versions of the KINDS of things
necessary for that other piece to come within the student's range of ability
more quickly. If that piece was "The Entertainer," more Schubert wasn't
going to help.
Children can be rewarded by feeling truly and directly heard and seen. They
can feel rewarded by playing piano for fun, without so much focus on
recitals and perfection, and more on the feel of getting a fancy run right whether
they ever even START on the second movement. It's the difference between
success and failure. Successes can be small and relaxing and fun.
Amy said it well here:
-=- But
since you came to an unschooling list with the question, my answer is
to focus on each individual and try to help them with their own goals
-- to use the "relationship-based" approach that works so well in
unschooling.
-=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
arcarpenter@... writes:
Some kids might really thrive on the rewards, and some might feel
pressured and like they did something wrong when they didn't get a
point (that would have been me, and it would be my son, too).
Oh, that's true. Some kids might focus all their attention on the thing
they would have gotten if they had remembered to do X, but are NOT getting
because they forgot to do X, and how much they WISHED they had done X and gotten
the thing, and there goes half an hour.
I can only read bass clef with my left hand at a piano. Anywhere else in
the world, I have to translate it in words from treble clef, and that's not
"reading," that's as painstaking as any misunderstood mathematical equation, or
as sounding out a long word phonetically only to find out it's a native
American word originally written out by the Spaniards. (Guachupangue and Pojoaque
come to mind, as towns on either side of where I grew up.)
But my left hand can read it if it ignores my brain's saying "That's a C.
C!"
I wish my piano teacher had done bass-only exercises, because the right hand
was zipping along because I did vocal and clarinet and treble cleff was my
language.
Also, I only liked old stuff. Clementi and Bach were fun. It would've been
nice to have had a teacher who could've looked at that and said, "Okay,
you'd like Telemann, then" but I was dragged through the same Thompson books as
everyone else, regardless of my interests or theirs. I despised playing the
late 19th century stuff, the schmlatzy old parlor music. But had she told me
that that's EXACTLY why most people in the 19th century learned piano,
because they didn't have the means to listen to recorded music at home yet (but
would soon), and so it was a great thing to have music at home, and especially
music people could sing along to... THAT would've made it come to life. But
she didn't tell me, probably because she didn't know or care, because what SHE
liked was Rachmaninoff and Chopin, both of which gagged me then and gag me
now. Perhaps they're the olympic sports of the keyboard, but it's not any fun
to listen to and you sure's hell can't sing along or dance a minuet.
This isn't about prizes, it's about music and playing being satisfying for
their own sake.
In school if a kid loves painting but is forced to do photography and
sculpture to get the six weeks of painting instruction, he might decide "I hate
art" and stop taking art classes. Some people who say they hate piano probably
just hate the controls and the lack of honest personal attention. A private
lesson is "attention," but if the teacher's paying more attention to the book
and the Curriculum than to the individual student, that's not very personal.
The story of the kid whose teacher said "too hard for you" was sad. They
could've done four measures at a time, or one hand at a time, or turn it into a
duet, or the teacher might have (had he had such an awareness, creativity
and willingness) found pieces that were easier versions of the KINDS of things
necessary for that other piece to come within the student's range of ability
more quickly. If that piece was "The Entertainer," more Schubert wasn't
going to help.
Children can be rewarded by feeling truly and directly heard and seen. They
can feel rewarded by playing piano for fun, without so much focus on
recitals and perfection, and more on the feel of getting a fancy run right whether
they ever even START on the second movement. It's the difference between
success and failure. Successes can be small and relaxing and fun.
Amy said it well here:
-=- But
since you came to an unschooling list with the question, my answer is
to focus on each individual and try to help them with their own goals
-- to use the "relationship-based" approach that works so well in
unschooling.
-=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>I would not go down that route, for several reasons.
> From: "beanmommy2" <beanmommy2@...>
> Date: 2005/06/19 Sun PM 02:19:22 EDT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] A question about rewards
>
> Hi there,
>
> This question is not about my own kids, but about the piano studio I
> run in my home. I'm thinking of implementing something new this
> fall, and while it appeals to me, I'm not sure if it's at odds with
> what I think about learning and rewards.
>
> Anyway, I was thinking of having a spreadsheet for each piano
> student with a little points sheet. At each lesson, they would get,
> say, a point for remembering to bring all their books, a point for
> completing any written assignments given, etc. [I would not give
> them points for how much/long/often they practiced, for various
> reasons.]
>
> They could them get extra points at any time, if they wanted, for
> things like memorizing a piece, playing an informal "concert" for
> family or friends, etc.
>
> Then, I would buy various little candies, keychains, various dollar
> store toys, and maybe once a month have "open store" when they could
> purchase various things with their points earned. Maybe have the
> option, especially for older kids, that they could save a lot of
> their points and "buy" a Target gift card or something.
>
> The reason this appeals to me is that I could picture my students
> liking it: I'm hoping it would give a more "fun" and special feel to
> the whole studio and coming over for lessons. I also could see some
> of the kids liking a tangible way of keeping track of their
> progress, and taking advantage of doing some of the extra things,
> like memorizing pieces.
>
> But I am hesitant ... I remember reading a book called "Punished by
> Rewards." Would something like this ruin natural learning or
> enthusiasm? Do you think your own kids would like or benefit from
> something like that? Is it "too schoolish"?
>
> Thanks for your opinions,
> Jenny
You mention that you want there to be a more "fun" feel to the studio, and this is kind of a pet peeve with me.
People assume that kids won't want to do anything that
isn't made "fun". To me, this seems like you're telling kids what to think, regardless of what their instincts are telling them, and this is not something I would think that you wan't to encourage. Why wouldn't someone want to do something that is interesting and/or challenging?
This alone ought to be enough to bring in those who truly care, and isn't that who you want?
Since you mention the book, "Punished by Rewards", I'll say that what you are considering setting up is what he calls a "token economy", similar to what is often set up in prisons and/or schools to reward "good" (officially sanctioned) behavior.
My 2c.
Kevin
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley
> However we are Unschoolers and do not use extrinsic motivations - for allMy daughters and I were at the library last week and my oldest (8.75)
> the reasons Alfie Kohn talks about.
saw that the library was having a reading program. She asked me about
it, we read the directions and she got REALLY excited. Free prizes just
for reading like she already does? She _had_ to sign up. She was so
excited about it afterward in the car that I mentioned to her that the
bookstores are doing similar summer reading contests where after you
read so many books, you can actually get a free book. We had to go and
sign up RIGHT THEN. She was so excited at the idea of free books. She
has made this a goal of hers now for the past week. She was reading
just as much before last week, but now she has a personal goal to
accomplish, too. It would have been very wrong of me to tell her that
she couldn't participate in these programs when she wanted to do so.
It reminds me of Girl Scout cookie selling time. We've always told our
daughter that she doesn't have to sell any, but she has always chosen to
(with a specific goal), therefore, we always help her reach whatever
goal she wants to reach with no pressuring from us. These are her goals
to accomplish and we are her supporters.
So, I can see that my wholely unschooled daughter, Zoë, could
potentially be thrilled with some sort of reward program in a piano
class. Could you set it up in such a way that it isn't required by the
students, but optional for those that are interested? Of course, the
parents might try and force their kids to participate...
-Lisa in AZ
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/20/2005 11:12:33 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
kevin-tucker@... writes:
You mention that you want there to be a more "fun" feel to the studio, and
this is kind of a pet peeve with me.
People assume that kids won't want to do anything that
isn't made "fun".
=-======
Like the whole "Reading is FUNdamental" campaign,
or books with titles like "Math made fun."
I shudder.
-=-Why wouldn't someone want to do something that is interesting and/or
challenging?
-=-
Could something be interesting or challenging and yet not fun?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kevin-tucker@... writes:
You mention that you want there to be a more "fun" feel to the studio, and
this is kind of a pet peeve with me.
People assume that kids won't want to do anything that
isn't made "fun".
=-======
Like the whole "Reading is FUNdamental" campaign,
or books with titles like "Math made fun."
I shudder.
-=-Why wouldn't someone want to do something that is interesting and/or
challenging?
-=-
Could something be interesting or challenging and yet not fun?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>Me also.
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Date: 2005/06/20 Mon PM 03:01:21 EDT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] A question about rewards
>
>
> In a message dated 6/20/2005 11:12:33 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> kevin-tucker@... writes:
>
> You mention that you want there to be a more "fun" feel to the studio, and
> this is kind of a pet peeve with me.
> People assume that kids won't want to do anything that
> isn't made "fun".
>
>
> =-======
>
> Like the whole "Reading is FUNdamental" campaign,
> or books with titles like "Math made fun."
>
> I shudder.
>That really depends upon your definition of "fun".
> -=-Why wouldn't someone want to do something that is interesting and/or
> challenging?
> -=-
>
> Could something be interesting or challenging and yet not fun?
>
I consider all interesting/challenging problems to be fun.
It's probably not necessarily going to be easy, but it will be fun to solve the problem. That's one of the reasons I don't like the sugar-coating. It implies that the sugar-coating is the "fun" part, rather than the solution itself.
Kevin
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
K Krejci
Hi, Jenny-
I'll do my best to answer your questions but much is
forgotten (or buried?!?) after such a long time! Not
that fading memory will shorten my reply ;)
This teacher was one that my mother's best friend used
which translated into 'the best piano teacher in the
world.' Her methods amounted to 'if it's not on the
page, you don't play it.' Every crescendo had to
match the marking on the page, for example. She kept
a sort of scoresheet, assigned writing tasks (yes, I
wrote whole pages of G clefs), etc. She had a pointer
that she'd use to beat time on the page or poke my
hands or wrists. Which caused me to make mistakes.
Which she marked down in her book and wrote my 'score'
on the page of whatever I was playing. She made me
play the same piece over and over and over, week after
week, until I scored '100' (as in played it EXACTLY as
it was written on the page).
All of this was reported to my parents (this is the
extra beating I mentioned). My 'reward' for getting
100 was that I got to start on yet another piece of
her choosing. And then there was the ever-so-horrid
annual piano recital. You don't want to know about
that. Suffice to say that I have tremendous
performance anxiety.
So, you see, her requirements were VERY concrete. And
were, for me, almost completely unattainable. She was
constructing musical mechanics, not musicians. In my
case, she immobilized and destroyed the musician. So
I married one :)
Seriously, I know you could not possibly be teaching
by her methods. I can only think of a few situations
where I'd expect to find anyone who followed her
'techniques.' However, in my later learning and
teaching experiences, I found that my students each
required and desired something different from their
music experience.
I spent time trying to find that out. Most of them
were absolutely shocked that I asked, "Why do you do
this? What do you like about it? How can I help
you?" The ones who did it because 'Mom/Dad said so'
needed more help from me to find something THEY could
like about it, even if they never got 'better' at it.
My students ranged from age 6 to (I'm not kidding) 68.
We had up days and down days and days when we didn't
get where we thought we were going but ended up
someplace else that was pretty cool.
But it was always about music and everything was good
when it stayed that way. If a student told me, "I'd
try more if you gave me (insert your favorite
treat/prize/cash award here)," I would say, "I see,"
and then have a conversation with their parents about
maybe finding something else their child wanted to do
more. Maybe it was a different instrument or maybe it
was a different activity altogether.
I always tried to make sure they knew it was because I
cared about their child's experience. If we combine
forces to make your kid hate music today, what happens
in five, ten or fifty years (see my aforementioned 68
year-old student)? It's a missed opportunity and
something that may end up on the 'I wish I could' or
'Why didn't I' lists that we all seem to have. Some
kids dig music, some don't. It's all around us so I
always spent a lot of time talking about what we hear,
what it means to us, what we like about it, what we
can do ourselves. For me, technical skill was easiest
to grow in my students when I spent time tending to
the root desire. (or this could be a load of
fertilizer, if I extend the metaphor)
Now aren't you sorry you asked? :D
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
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I'll do my best to answer your questions but much is
forgotten (or buried?!?) after such a long time! Not
that fading memory will shorten my reply ;)
This teacher was one that my mother's best friend used
which translated into 'the best piano teacher in the
world.' Her methods amounted to 'if it's not on the
page, you don't play it.' Every crescendo had to
match the marking on the page, for example. She kept
a sort of scoresheet, assigned writing tasks (yes, I
wrote whole pages of G clefs), etc. She had a pointer
that she'd use to beat time on the page or poke my
hands or wrists. Which caused me to make mistakes.
Which she marked down in her book and wrote my 'score'
on the page of whatever I was playing. She made me
play the same piece over and over and over, week after
week, until I scored '100' (as in played it EXACTLY as
it was written on the page).
All of this was reported to my parents (this is the
extra beating I mentioned). My 'reward' for getting
100 was that I got to start on yet another piece of
her choosing. And then there was the ever-so-horrid
annual piano recital. You don't want to know about
that. Suffice to say that I have tremendous
performance anxiety.
So, you see, her requirements were VERY concrete. And
were, for me, almost completely unattainable. She was
constructing musical mechanics, not musicians. In my
case, she immobilized and destroyed the musician. So
I married one :)
Seriously, I know you could not possibly be teaching
by her methods. I can only think of a few situations
where I'd expect to find anyone who followed her
'techniques.' However, in my later learning and
teaching experiences, I found that my students each
required and desired something different from their
music experience.
I spent time trying to find that out. Most of them
were absolutely shocked that I asked, "Why do you do
this? What do you like about it? How can I help
you?" The ones who did it because 'Mom/Dad said so'
needed more help from me to find something THEY could
like about it, even if they never got 'better' at it.
My students ranged from age 6 to (I'm not kidding) 68.
We had up days and down days and days when we didn't
get where we thought we were going but ended up
someplace else that was pretty cool.
But it was always about music and everything was good
when it stayed that way. If a student told me, "I'd
try more if you gave me (insert your favorite
treat/prize/cash award here)," I would say, "I see,"
and then have a conversation with their parents about
maybe finding something else their child wanted to do
more. Maybe it was a different instrument or maybe it
was a different activity altogether.
I always tried to make sure they knew it was because I
cared about their child's experience. If we combine
forces to make your kid hate music today, what happens
in five, ten or fifty years (see my aforementioned 68
year-old student)? It's a missed opportunity and
something that may end up on the 'I wish I could' or
'Why didn't I' lists that we all seem to have. Some
kids dig music, some don't. It's all around us so I
always spent a lot of time talking about what we hear,
what it means to us, what we like about it, what we
can do ourselves. For me, technical skill was easiest
to grow in my students when I spent time tending to
the root desire. (or this could be a load of
fertilizer, if I extend the metaphor)
Now aren't you sorry you asked? :D
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
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K Krejci
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
challenging but fun? Well... maybe (but I'm weird)
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>Childbirth? Surgery? I found them interesting and
> Could something be interesting or challenging and
> yet not fun?
>
> Sandra
>
challenging but fun? Well... maybe (but I'm weird)
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
__________________________________________________
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beanmommy2
--- In [email protected], <kevin-tucker@c...>
wrote:
this is not something I would think that you wan't to encourage.
Well... to me it's part of setting up a nice environment. I try to
smile, speak nicely to the students, sometimes I have a platter of
homemade cookies on lesson day, for piano parties we have pizza and
play games that students have liked in the past ... all of that, to
me, is part of trying to provide an environment that is pleasant and
inviting and welcoming and comfortable.
So to me, that's what I mean when I say "it would hopefully make the
studio feel more fun." Just another factor like that. For example, I
would never make my house dreary-looking and too hot, and never
offering refreshments or smiling because I'd be concerned
about "telling the kids what to think" or encourage that "they
won't do anthing that isn't fun."
Although as I'm thinking about it, I think I do see your point. If I
said, "Here's a new thing we're gonna do that will make lessons FUN!
Isn't playing the piano FUN!" then yes, that would be annoying.
It's a fine line, in some sense. I always hate it when the parents
say things like, "Oh, wow, we see you're trying to make piano fun!"
Ugh. No.
But do I try hard to make it an enjoyable, pleasant experience for
each kid, and make them look forward to coming to my home each week?
Yes.
Thanks so much for the input,
Jenny
wrote:
> I would not go down that route, for several reasons.studio, and this is kind of a pet peeve with me.
> You mention that you want there to be a more "fun" feel to the
> People assume that kids won't want to do anything thatto think, regardless of what their instincts are telling them, and
> isn't made "fun". To me, this seems like you're telling kids what
this is not something I would think that you wan't to encourage.
Well... to me it's part of setting up a nice environment. I try to
smile, speak nicely to the students, sometimes I have a platter of
homemade cookies on lesson day, for piano parties we have pizza and
play games that students have liked in the past ... all of that, to
me, is part of trying to provide an environment that is pleasant and
inviting and welcoming and comfortable.
So to me, that's what I mean when I say "it would hopefully make the
studio feel more fun." Just another factor like that. For example, I
would never make my house dreary-looking and too hot, and never
offering refreshments or smiling because I'd be concerned
about "telling the kids what to think" or encourage that "they
won't do anthing that isn't fun."
Although as I'm thinking about it, I think I do see your point. If I
said, "Here's a new thing we're gonna do that will make lessons FUN!
Isn't playing the piano FUN!" then yes, that would be annoying.
It's a fine line, in some sense. I always hate it when the parents
say things like, "Oh, wow, we see you're trying to make piano fun!"
Ugh. No.
But do I try hard to make it an enjoyable, pleasant experience for
each kid, and make them look forward to coming to my home each week?
Yes.
Thanks so much for the input,
Jenny
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/20/2005 3:24:20 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
kraekrej@... writes:
Childbirth? Surgery? I found them interesting and
challenging but fun? Well... maybe (but I'm weird)
Some people have fun births.
Once you're pregnant, there's an inevitability down the road one way or
another.
Some surgery is optional, and you decide based on the alternatives. That's
not quite "to choose" to do something interesting and challenging. It's like
the dentist. You don't *HAVE* to go but the consequences might be bad.
Lesser of two evils.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kraekrej@... writes:
Childbirth? Surgery? I found them interesting and
challenging but fun? Well... maybe (but I'm weird)
Some people have fun births.
Once you're pregnant, there's an inevitability down the road one way or
another.
Some surgery is optional, and you decide based on the alternatives. That's
not quite "to choose" to do something interesting and challenging. It's like
the dentist. You don't *HAVE* to go but the consequences might be bad.
Lesser of two evils.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<Well... to me it's part of setting up a nice environment. I try to
smile, speak nicely to the students, sometimes I have a platter of
homemade cookies on lesson day, for piano parties we have pizza and
play games that students have liked in the past ... all of that, to
me, is part of trying to provide an environment that is pleasant and
inviting and welcoming and comfortable.
So to me, that's what I mean when I say "it would hopefully make the
studio feel more fun." Just another factor like that. For example, I
would never make my house dreary-looking and too hot, and never
offering refreshments or smiling because I'd be concerned
about "telling the kids what to think" or encourage that "they
won't do anthing that isn't fun." >>>>
But having a nice environment, speaking pleasantly, and in this description
having cookies, aren't rewards that are tied to something that the students
must do outside of the lessons to receive. It is the normally courteous
behavior of a civilized person who invites people into their space.
Presumably you would be like this with anyone visiting you, not just your
piano students. Also if the student failed to bring their notes or whatever
the designated behavior was that you were proposing to reward, you are not
then going to put them in the hot, stuffy corner and be rude to them, I'm
sure!
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.9/23 - Release Date: 6/20/2005
smile, speak nicely to the students, sometimes I have a platter of
homemade cookies on lesson day, for piano parties we have pizza and
play games that students have liked in the past ... all of that, to
me, is part of trying to provide an environment that is pleasant and
inviting and welcoming and comfortable.
So to me, that's what I mean when I say "it would hopefully make the
studio feel more fun." Just another factor like that. For example, I
would never make my house dreary-looking and too hot, and never
offering refreshments or smiling because I'd be concerned
about "telling the kids what to think" or encourage that "they
won't do anthing that isn't fun." >>>>
But having a nice environment, speaking pleasantly, and in this description
having cookies, aren't rewards that are tied to something that the students
must do outside of the lessons to receive. It is the normally courteous
behavior of a civilized person who invites people into their space.
Presumably you would be like this with anyone visiting you, not just your
piano students. Also if the student failed to bring their notes or whatever
the designated behavior was that you were proposing to reward, you are not
then going to put them in the hot, stuffy corner and be rude to them, I'm
sure!
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.9/23 - Release Date: 6/20/2005
[email protected]
>Yes, but by creating a pleasant environment, you're not creating any obligation on the part of your students to "have fun".
> From: "beanmommy2" <beanmommy2@...>
> Date: 2005/06/20 Mon PM 04:55:31 EDT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: A question about rewards
>
> --- In [email protected], <kevin-tucker@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > I would not go down that route, for several reasons.
> > You mention that you want there to be a more "fun" feel to the
> studio, and this is kind of a pet peeve with me.
> > People assume that kids won't want to do anything that
> > isn't made "fun". To me, this seems like you're telling kids what
> to think, regardless of what their instincts are telling them, and
> this is not something I would think that you wan't to encourage.
>
>
> Well... to me it's part of setting up a nice environment. I try to
> smile, speak nicely to the students, sometimes I have a platter of
> homemade cookies on lesson day, for piano parties we have pizza and
> play games that students have liked in the past ... all of that, to
> me, is part of trying to provide an environment that is pleasant and
> inviting and welcoming and comfortable.
>
> So to me, that's what I mean when I say "it would hopefully make the
> studio feel more fun." Just another factor like that. For example, I
> would never make my house dreary-looking and too hot, and never
> offering refreshments or smiling because I'd be concerned
> about "telling the kids what to think" or encourage that "they
> won't do anthing that isn't fun."
>
Kevin
> Although as I'm thinking about it, I think I do see your point. If IThat's exactly what I'm talking about!
> said, "Here's a new thing we're gonna do that will make lessons FUN!
> Isn't playing the piano FUN!" then yes, that would be annoying.
>
> It's a fine line, in some sense. I always hate it when the parents
> say things like, "Oh, wow, we see you're trying to make piano fun!"
> Ugh. No.
>
> But do I try hard to make it an enjoyable, pleasant experience for
> each kid, and make them look forward to coming to my home each week?
> Yes.
>
> Thanks so much for the input,
> Jenny
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/21/2005 10:50:36 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
kevin-tucker@... writes:
Yes, but by creating a pleasant environment, you're not creating any
obligation on the part of your students to "have fun".
--------------
Hey Kevin, what's with you and fun?
This is the second time you've kinda complained about the idea of fun!
Unless someone came over to my house to have me comfort them after a death
or something, I want them to have fun at my house or get the hell out. That's
not unreasonable, is it?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kevin-tucker@... writes:
Yes, but by creating a pleasant environment, you're not creating any
obligation on the part of your students to "have fun".
--------------
Hey Kevin, what's with you and fun?
This is the second time you've kinda complained about the idea of fun!
Unless someone came over to my house to have me comfort them after a death
or something, I want them to have fun at my house or get the hell out. That's
not unreasonable, is it?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>Oh, not at all! I didn't mean to give that impression!
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Date: 2005/06/21 Tue PM 02:34:59 EDT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: A question about rewards
>
>
> In a message dated 6/21/2005 10:50:36 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> kevin-tucker@... writes:
>
> Yes, but by creating a pleasant environment, you're not creating any
> obligation on the part of your students to "have fun".
>
>
> --------------
>
> Hey Kevin, what's with you and fun?
>
> This is the second time you've kinda complained about the idea of fun!
>
>
> Unless someone came over to my house to have me comfort them after a death
> or something, I want them to have fun at my house or get the hell out. That's
> not unreasonable, is it?
>
I prefer for visitors to my home to honestly enjoy themselves.
I just think that the popular definition of fun is extremely narrow. What I took from the original post was that piano lessons can't possibly be enjoyable in and of themselves, so candy/toys/etc. had to be added to the experience to make it "fun". In my opinion, that's bribery, and I don't like it.
Kevin
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/21/05 3:09:50 PM, kevin-tucker@... writes:
<< I just think that the popular definition of fun is extremely narrow. What
I took from the original post was that piano lessons can't possibly be
enjoyable in and of themselves, so candy/toys/etc. had to be added to the experience
to make it "fun". In my opinion, that's bribery, and I don't like it. >>
If I were a piano student going against my will already, I'd like it tons! <g>
I was a piano student going by my own choice, and liked it okay. Food
wouldn't have helped, I don't think. Maybe having the teacher not have long read
fingernails while she was telling me to cut mine all the time because "you
can't play piano with fingernails" would've been nice. I had short on one hand
and longer on the other, because I played guitar and finger-picked, but they
weren't as long as hers.
I guess what's fun for me is when people are just honest and straightforward.
And when things are challenging and (forgot the other thing the other day
<g>).
And when lessons are intersting, or when there's food.
I guess I'm just easily amused, and it's fun to be amused. <g>
Sandra
<< I just think that the popular definition of fun is extremely narrow. What
I took from the original post was that piano lessons can't possibly be
enjoyable in and of themselves, so candy/toys/etc. had to be added to the experience
to make it "fun". In my opinion, that's bribery, and I don't like it. >>
If I were a piano student going against my will already, I'd like it tons! <g>
I was a piano student going by my own choice, and liked it okay. Food
wouldn't have helped, I don't think. Maybe having the teacher not have long read
fingernails while she was telling me to cut mine all the time because "you
can't play piano with fingernails" would've been nice. I had short on one hand
and longer on the other, because I played guitar and finger-picked, but they
weren't as long as hers.
I guess what's fun for me is when people are just honest and straightforward.
And when things are challenging and (forgot the other thing the other day
<g>).
And when lessons are intersting, or when there's food.
I guess I'm just easily amused, and it's fun to be amused. <g>
Sandra