Stealing
Tina Ulrich
Something happened last night that I'd like to hear some of your
ideas on. My husband and son, David (11), were going to
see "Madagascar" with a friend and his son, Cooper (7). Everyone
was waiting for Cooper in the car. I came into the house and saw
Cooper standing by David's massive pile of Legos with a very guilty
look on his face and with his hands behind his back. I told him
that they were waiting for him and he sort of slid his hands into
his pockets and slowly inched past me. I was pretty sure he had
taken something but decided to just let it play out.
When they got back from the movie I asked David if Cooper had
anything "new" in his pockets at the movie. David said no but both
he and my husband noticed that he was acting very suspicious. David
then looked through his Legos and immediately noticed that an
arrangement of Star Troopers was obviously missing something.
Cooper's dad is a dear friend so my husband called him and asked if
maybe Cooper had taken something. Cooper denied it so we said we'd
look again. In the meantime, his dad had found the Star Trooper and
they came over to bring it back.
When they got here, Cooper had been well-rehearsed. He was supposed
to tell David he was sorry, that he wouldn't do it again, and
something else (I forget) then he was supposed to apologize to both
my husband and me for doing something wrong in our house. It was
all very painful. David tried to be gracious and forgiving. I told
Cooper that he's still welcome here anytime.
After they left, David said, "That was so sad. Everybody was
telling him what to say. It just made me sad." I thought too that
the scripted apology was just humiliating, yet I also feel for
Cooper's dad. What should he have done? These are people that we
care about and want to be at ease with. Still, I don't want David
to feel that his (precious!) posessions are in jeopardy when
Cooper's around.
What would make a child steal? Cooper has lots of toys and parents
who love him and provide for him. It just seems there's something
else going on there that I'd like to understand.
OK. Thanks for your insights!
Tina
ideas on. My husband and son, David (11), were going to
see "Madagascar" with a friend and his son, Cooper (7). Everyone
was waiting for Cooper in the car. I came into the house and saw
Cooper standing by David's massive pile of Legos with a very guilty
look on his face and with his hands behind his back. I told him
that they were waiting for him and he sort of slid his hands into
his pockets and slowly inched past me. I was pretty sure he had
taken something but decided to just let it play out.
When they got back from the movie I asked David if Cooper had
anything "new" in his pockets at the movie. David said no but both
he and my husband noticed that he was acting very suspicious. David
then looked through his Legos and immediately noticed that an
arrangement of Star Troopers was obviously missing something.
Cooper's dad is a dear friend so my husband called him and asked if
maybe Cooper had taken something. Cooper denied it so we said we'd
look again. In the meantime, his dad had found the Star Trooper and
they came over to bring it back.
When they got here, Cooper had been well-rehearsed. He was supposed
to tell David he was sorry, that he wouldn't do it again, and
something else (I forget) then he was supposed to apologize to both
my husband and me for doing something wrong in our house. It was
all very painful. David tried to be gracious and forgiving. I told
Cooper that he's still welcome here anytime.
After they left, David said, "That was so sad. Everybody was
telling him what to say. It just made me sad." I thought too that
the scripted apology was just humiliating, yet I also feel for
Cooper's dad. What should he have done? These are people that we
care about and want to be at ease with. Still, I don't want David
to feel that his (precious!) posessions are in jeopardy when
Cooper's around.
What would make a child steal? Cooper has lots of toys and parents
who love him and provide for him. It just seems there's something
else going on there that I'd like to understand.
OK. Thanks for your insights!
Tina
K Krejci
What a sad situation all the way around. I know there
are powerful desires at work that seem to overwhelm
us. The apology scene you described makes me ache.
Poor little guy.
I suppose the only alternative might have been for you
to 'catch' him at the outset, clear up the matter
gently and let it go. But you didn't really know and
I understand that you certainly wouldn't want to
accuse (for lack of a better word) the child without
being 100% certain. Bringing in Cooper's parents
probably made it rougher on everyone involved.
Maybe David is the one who can take the lead on this.
Maybe Cooper can tell him why that item was so
precious, so dear that he'd risk so much to have it.
And maybe they can work out a way to let David feel
his treasures are safe and Cooper can feel that he's
able to enjoy them without having them.
Once they have resolved the issue, it seems like all
the grownups could take a breath and be satisfied that
the two parties involved worked it out. I hope
everyone can return to a more enjoyable relationship
soon. It sounds like these are all very important
people in your family's life.
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
__________________________________________________
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are powerful desires at work that seem to overwhelm
us. The apology scene you described makes me ache.
Poor little guy.
I suppose the only alternative might have been for you
to 'catch' him at the outset, clear up the matter
gently and let it go. But you didn't really know and
I understand that you certainly wouldn't want to
accuse (for lack of a better word) the child without
being 100% certain. Bringing in Cooper's parents
probably made it rougher on everyone involved.
Maybe David is the one who can take the lead on this.
Maybe Cooper can tell him why that item was so
precious, so dear that he'd risk so much to have it.
And maybe they can work out a way to let David feel
his treasures are safe and Cooper can feel that he's
able to enjoy them without having them.
Once they have resolved the issue, it seems like all
the grownups could take a breath and be satisfied that
the two parties involved worked it out. I hope
everyone can return to a more enjoyable relationship
soon. It sounds like these are all very important
people in your family's life.
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<< What would make a child steal? Cooper has lots of toys and parents
who love him and provide for him. It just seems there's something
else going on there that I'd like to understand. >>>>>
A few weeks ago our neighbor Renee (7.5) was over here, and the last game
the two girls were playing was "dress up" in the bathroom. A few minutes
after she left I noticed that my diamond ring, that I had left in the
bathroom when I washed my hands, was missing, although my gold wedding ring
was still in the tray.
I asked Jayn if Renee had tried it on because I couldn't see it, and she
said yes, so I called R's house. I said to her Mom that I thought Renee may
have tried on my ring and "forgotten" that she had it on when she left
shortly after. I could hear part of the conversation where Mom asked, Renee
denied and then Mom found the ring - in Renee's jewelry box. The upshot of
it was that Mom assured me that Renee would bring it back at once, although
I offered to come up and collect it.
Boy was she ever subdued when she came back down the hall in about five
minutes - probably the time it took for whatever punishment and
unpleasantness to be undertaken. She had a pretty implausible story about
believing it was her aunt's ring she had on (my ring is pretty unusual in
being a heart shaped diamond). I *hope* I handled it well by being kind to
her, not acting all accusatory, and thanking her for bringing it back as if
she had done so by choice.
I believe that Renee stole my ring because she is jealous of the freedoms,
and huge amount of freely shared stuff, that Jayn has. I think maybe she was
trying a bit of magical thinking of bringing something visibly precious of
ours back with her to put with her personal treasures, or somehow trying to
test the limit of what could be shared. Or maybe she just liked the sparkle
- but I doubt it is that picayune. Maybe she was trying to get Jayn into
trouble - for the same reasons of jealousy, and because that is the primary
dynamic between her and her little brother.
All it means to me is that I have to step up the vigilance when she visits -
and not leave my rings about, however mildly inconvenient that may be.
Robyn L. Coburn
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who love him and provide for him. It just seems there's something
else going on there that I'd like to understand. >>>>>
A few weeks ago our neighbor Renee (7.5) was over here, and the last game
the two girls were playing was "dress up" in the bathroom. A few minutes
after she left I noticed that my diamond ring, that I had left in the
bathroom when I washed my hands, was missing, although my gold wedding ring
was still in the tray.
I asked Jayn if Renee had tried it on because I couldn't see it, and she
said yes, so I called R's house. I said to her Mom that I thought Renee may
have tried on my ring and "forgotten" that she had it on when she left
shortly after. I could hear part of the conversation where Mom asked, Renee
denied and then Mom found the ring - in Renee's jewelry box. The upshot of
it was that Mom assured me that Renee would bring it back at once, although
I offered to come up and collect it.
Boy was she ever subdued when she came back down the hall in about five
minutes - probably the time it took for whatever punishment and
unpleasantness to be undertaken. She had a pretty implausible story about
believing it was her aunt's ring she had on (my ring is pretty unusual in
being a heart shaped diamond). I *hope* I handled it well by being kind to
her, not acting all accusatory, and thanking her for bringing it back as if
she had done so by choice.
I believe that Renee stole my ring because she is jealous of the freedoms,
and huge amount of freely shared stuff, that Jayn has. I think maybe she was
trying a bit of magical thinking of bringing something visibly precious of
ours back with her to put with her personal treasures, or somehow trying to
test the limit of what could be shared. Or maybe she just liked the sparkle
- but I doubt it is that picayune. Maybe she was trying to get Jayn into
trouble - for the same reasons of jealousy, and because that is the primary
dynamic between her and her little brother.
All it means to me is that I have to step up the vigilance when she visits -
and not leave my rings about, however mildly inconvenient that may be.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.5/18 - Release Date: 6/15/2005
Diana Tashjian
I distinctly remember stealing an Indian doll that someone had brought
to share at school. And I brazenly lied about how I had gotten it to
my mom. I was 7 also. It seems that I've heard many stories like this
so I think this is not that unusual for this age range. Although, I've
never stolen anything else in my life. I don't really know the best
way to handle it...
Diana Tashjian
to share at school. And I brazenly lied about how I had gotten it to
my mom. I was 7 also. It seems that I've heard many stories like this
so I think this is not that unusual for this age range. Although, I've
never stolen anything else in my life. I don't really know the best
way to handle it...
Diana Tashjian
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], "Tina Ulrich"
<tjulrich@c...> wrote:
==
developmental reason that kids at about age 7 might try lying or
stealing. I know quite a few kids who either start lying for a while
or try stealing something right around that age. I did both myself
right around that age.
There's something about age 7 -- a child can really start to see the
big world around him, and is trying to make sense of his place in it.
He gets some ideas about managing his situation a little more --
taking some more control.
I know of one boy who told his father he'd already brought his books
in from the car, when he hadn't. Now if I was his parent, I'd
probably just go get the books myself. But I think the boy lied
because he was just starting to figure out that he could manage the
situation so that he wouldn't have to get up from what he was doing
and get the books. Of course, he hadn't foreseen the point at which
his father looked in the car and saw that he was lying. The new
connections only go so far at this point.
In your case, I think Cooper saw the things he wanted and thought
about trying to get them. He doesn't see the big world enough yet to
think about asking his parents to buy them -- he wants these specific
things, the ones he sees right now. It occurs to him, because his
brain is offering up more ideas than it used to, that he might just
try taking what he wants. And lying about it. So he tries it. He
doesn't feel great about it (that's part of the learning, too), and it
goes against what he's been told, which he kind of vaguely remembers.
But he's just trying something out, and seeing if it's a good way to
manage the situation.
So I think when he comes over again, you can just share with him that
if there's something he really wants, you will help him try to get one
for himself. You could write down the exact name of the toy or item,
and if he needs to go to a special store or website to get it. You can
offer to bring it up with his dad. That will help his brain learn
that there are other ways to manage situations (collecting
information, asking) and to get what he wants.
I hope that helps.
Peace,
Amy
<tjulrich@c...> wrote:
==
> What would make a child steal? Cooper has lots of toys and parentsI have a (possibly half-baked) personal theory that there's a
> who love him and provide for him. It just seems there's something
> else going on there that I'd like to understand.==
developmental reason that kids at about age 7 might try lying or
stealing. I know quite a few kids who either start lying for a while
or try stealing something right around that age. I did both myself
right around that age.
There's something about age 7 -- a child can really start to see the
big world around him, and is trying to make sense of his place in it.
He gets some ideas about managing his situation a little more --
taking some more control.
I know of one boy who told his father he'd already brought his books
in from the car, when he hadn't. Now if I was his parent, I'd
probably just go get the books myself. But I think the boy lied
because he was just starting to figure out that he could manage the
situation so that he wouldn't have to get up from what he was doing
and get the books. Of course, he hadn't foreseen the point at which
his father looked in the car and saw that he was lying. The new
connections only go so far at this point.
In your case, I think Cooper saw the things he wanted and thought
about trying to get them. He doesn't see the big world enough yet to
think about asking his parents to buy them -- he wants these specific
things, the ones he sees right now. It occurs to him, because his
brain is offering up more ideas than it used to, that he might just
try taking what he wants. And lying about it. So he tries it. He
doesn't feel great about it (that's part of the learning, too), and it
goes against what he's been told, which he kind of vaguely remembers.
But he's just trying something out, and seeing if it's a good way to
manage the situation.
So I think when he comes over again, you can just share with him that
if there's something he really wants, you will help him try to get one
for himself. You could write down the exact name of the toy or item,
and if he needs to go to a special store or website to get it. You can
offer to bring it up with his dad. That will help his brain learn
that there are other ways to manage situations (collecting
information, asking) and to get what he wants.
I hope that helps.
Peace,
Amy
Tina Ulrich
> So I think when he comes over again, you can just share with himthat
> if there's something he really wants, you will help him try to getone
> for himself. You could write down the exact name of the toy oritem,
> and if he needs to go to a special store or website to get it. Youcan
> offer to bring it up with his dad. That will help his brain learnYes, thanks, Amy. This is very insightful. What I'm seeing now is
> that there are other ways to manage situations (collecting
> information, asking) and to get what he wants.
that part of the problem is the anxiety of the adults involved. We
are scared and worried that Cooper is on his way to a life of
crime. :-) Seeing this as a developmental task gone wrong really
changes the way I feel about it and will undoubtedly change the way I
respond to Cooper. I'm sure having a Lego catalog handy and being
able to write down the things that he really likes will appeal to him.
This illustrates for me two reasons why this unschooling way of
thinking is so good for me. 1. I no longer have to be making "moral"
judgments about kids' behavior--there are more constructive ways to
interpret things. And 2. I can treat kids like human beings, not
inferior creatures to be managed and "raised."
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/20/2005 3:49:05 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
tjulrich@... writes:
1. I no longer have to be making "moral"
judgments about kids' behavior--there are more constructive ways to
interpret things. And 2. I can treat kids like human beings, not
inferior creatures to be managed and "raised."
I agree with #2, but I think morals are real and legitimate.
Kirby was little (seven or eight?), when he came in one day holding a $20
bill and looking at it like he'd never seen one. He said "Look what I found in
the road," but he said it without looking away from it, and without sounding
convinced, like he was in a fog about where it had come from.
I told him to hang onto it, and if nobody claimed it he could have it.
He had been at the neighbor's house, and I figured that the kid there had
given it to him, because that kid was always trouble of one sort or another, but
I also considered that Kirby had picked it up and not figured out how or
when to set it back down again, which is what happened.
The neighbor mom called and said basically, "Hi, Kirby was just here and a
$20 bill I had on the shelf is missing," and I said, "Yeah, he has it, we'll be
right over."
So I walked him over without shaming him and just said sometimes when you
pick something up it's kind of embarrassing to figure out how to put it back
where it's supposed to be but that maybe he could've said "Here, I was just
looking at this," and give it back as he was leaving.
He was clearly not trying to be sneaky. He had it in his hand and showed it
to me the moment he walked in. He could've hidden it, but he didn't.
A year and some later I got a call from the karate dojo saying some money
was missing from the men's dressing room, and Kirby had been in there but hadn't
been the only one. He wasn't accusing Kirby, but just wanted me to keep an
eye out, and they would follow other leads and keep looking. I told him
when he called about the other incident.
I think some moms would've marched in and searched the kid and made a
ruckus. I didn't. I thought... what will Kirby do if he has some cash? He'll
want to go to the card shop. The rest of the day passed and he didn't say "Can
I got to Magic Moments?" The next day passed without a request for me to
take him anywhere. I don't remember now whether I called the dojo or waited
until I went in, but they had found the money still in the dressing room, like
the guy had stuck it in his shoe or something like that, and it was still
sitting there. I didn't tell Kirby about it until it was all settled out, I
think. (It's been years now.)
Our kids have always been very scrupulous about bringing us the change if we
send the out with money. They'll bring change and receipts usually, which I
wouldn't care about myself. Because they're so honest, I don't mind
over-supplying them. Last week Kirby went out to eat and only had $5 or so. I gave
him a $20 and said take it in case, and if he didn't need it bring it back.
He brought it back.
When I was his age if I'd had $20 of my parents money I would've found
something to spend it on, but I think that's because I so rarely had any money and
I resented the amount my mom spent on cigarettes and beer, jukeboxes and
buying drinks for other drunks. Maybe part of our kids' advantage is they
don't see us spending money frivolously and then telling them we don't have any
to give them. My dad didn't do it, but my mom sure did. (They divorced when
I was Kirby's age.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tjulrich@... writes:
1. I no longer have to be making "moral"
judgments about kids' behavior--there are more constructive ways to
interpret things. And 2. I can treat kids like human beings, not
inferior creatures to be managed and "raised."
I agree with #2, but I think morals are real and legitimate.
Kirby was little (seven or eight?), when he came in one day holding a $20
bill and looking at it like he'd never seen one. He said "Look what I found in
the road," but he said it without looking away from it, and without sounding
convinced, like he was in a fog about where it had come from.
I told him to hang onto it, and if nobody claimed it he could have it.
He had been at the neighbor's house, and I figured that the kid there had
given it to him, because that kid was always trouble of one sort or another, but
I also considered that Kirby had picked it up and not figured out how or
when to set it back down again, which is what happened.
The neighbor mom called and said basically, "Hi, Kirby was just here and a
$20 bill I had on the shelf is missing," and I said, "Yeah, he has it, we'll be
right over."
So I walked him over without shaming him and just said sometimes when you
pick something up it's kind of embarrassing to figure out how to put it back
where it's supposed to be but that maybe he could've said "Here, I was just
looking at this," and give it back as he was leaving.
He was clearly not trying to be sneaky. He had it in his hand and showed it
to me the moment he walked in. He could've hidden it, but he didn't.
A year and some later I got a call from the karate dojo saying some money
was missing from the men's dressing room, and Kirby had been in there but hadn't
been the only one. He wasn't accusing Kirby, but just wanted me to keep an
eye out, and they would follow other leads and keep looking. I told him
when he called about the other incident.
I think some moms would've marched in and searched the kid and made a
ruckus. I didn't. I thought... what will Kirby do if he has some cash? He'll
want to go to the card shop. The rest of the day passed and he didn't say "Can
I got to Magic Moments?" The next day passed without a request for me to
take him anywhere. I don't remember now whether I called the dojo or waited
until I went in, but they had found the money still in the dressing room, like
the guy had stuck it in his shoe or something like that, and it was still
sitting there. I didn't tell Kirby about it until it was all settled out, I
think. (It's been years now.)
Our kids have always been very scrupulous about bringing us the change if we
send the out with money. They'll bring change and receipts usually, which I
wouldn't care about myself. Because they're so honest, I don't mind
over-supplying them. Last week Kirby went out to eat and only had $5 or so. I gave
him a $20 and said take it in case, and if he didn't need it bring it back.
He brought it back.
When I was his age if I'd had $20 of my parents money I would've found
something to spend it on, but I think that's because I so rarely had any money and
I resented the amount my mom spent on cigarettes and beer, jukeboxes and
buying drinks for other drunks. Maybe part of our kids' advantage is they
don't see us spending money frivolously and then telling them we don't have any
to give them. My dad didn't do it, but my mom sure did. (They divorced when
I was Kirby's age.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]