When "saying yes" is offensive
[email protected]
People leave the list all the time (and even more join, and some change
their e-mail addresses and stay on the list as ghostly members). When people
unsubscribe, they get an automatically-sent questionnaire that Pam Sorooshian
designed (maybe because she's got that statistician thang going <g>) and some
respond and most don't.
No problem.
Yesterday the list was pretty quiet, but I posted the link to the new
improved "saying yes" page, and a couple of people left.
No problem.
I want to use it as a springboard to talk about the difference between
unschooling as it's discussed here and the simple absence of school or
school-at-home. There are people who say anyone who's homeschooling and not using a
curriculum is unschooling. I don't know of an English speaking country in
which it's not their legal right to say what they want about such things. I also
don't know an English speaking country (nor any other) in which just living
without a curriculum and changing nothing else in one's life is going to be a
sustainable (nor even nearly legal) model of what any government in any
language thinks is acceptable parenting or "education."
But I'm getting philosophical.
And I have to.
You can't scratch unschooling without hitting philosophy.
By philosophy I don't mean reading Socrates and Descarte. I mean
considering how things work and how, and what is meant by "parenting," and what is, can
be, and should be expected of children and adults,and how far one can
stretch the prevailing expectations and whether and how children can be treated as
their full, whole selves even from birth rather than as grubs without reality
or status until they "earn it' or "mature" or "become adults."
That is all philosophy: the idea of "ideas." The thinking about thinking.
The idea of who says yes and who says no, and when, and why, and how--that's
philosophy. Who owns what and whom? What are the rights of a human?
It's one thing to read what some old academic coot finally wrote at age 60
about the rights of man, but it's another to decide and then allow and assist
a three year old to exercise some rights today, May 29, 2005, without
permission of academic or political or medical personnel.
By the luggage carousel at the Sacramento airport (the old one, or a smaller
one, not by the really cool luggage art), Pat Farenga told me that once he
was spoke to a HUGE room at a state convention in the SE U.S. and there were
maybe 2000 people, and that was less than half of the attendees at the
convention. Huge. He was talking about the importance of giving kids choices, and
how it works for them to learn from their interests (regular unschooling
philosophy) and when he said something to the effect of "kids need to be able to
say no," half of those people stood up and walked out of that room.
That was an easily-gathered convention of people who do not believe that
children should be able to say no. And conversely I'm confident they DO think
parents should say "no," early and often, and back it up with a stick or a
belt (or other "consequences"). In their cases, because their priority is to
please religious authorities who say they are pleasing God, they should (within
their philosophy) say no.
I should, within my philosophy, say yes.
People who don't have a philosophy don't know when to say yes or no. And I
guess some want others to tell them what to do without bothering with why,
or what the considerations are one way or another. Parenting books are FULL
of "do this and then that and your child will..." sleep all night, or be
exactly average on weight charts, or make good grades.
A guy asked me years ago (in a hostile way, in an online chat) "Are you
willing to risk your child's future on your 'theories'?" Yes, I am. As was he.
Even if one's theory is that it's okay not to have a theory, that's a
belief upon when they're acting. They're living out of their peripheral vision,
doing what it seems the neighbors are doing. Why? Because the neighbors are
doing it. They take the voices in their head as experts and authorities, and
they just skim the surface of their internal feedback, and the first
grandmother or cranky aunt whose ghostly voice from childhood comes forth with some
gem of traditional family "wisdom" like "you don't need another one," or
"you're too little" or "get down from there or you'll break your neck" or "put
that stick down before you poke somebody's eye out," THAT passes for belief and
philosophy; the parent repeats the message and feels virtuously parental.
For those whose philosophy of the season involves "The Force," think of
Darth Grandma breathing softly into a father's ear "He doesn't need to play video
games" and the father repeating parrotically "You don't need to play video
games." "He needs to go to bed now." "You need to go to bed now." The
father isn't thinking of who is manipulating his thoughts or why, and he
doesn't WANT to think.
So In light of all this I'm going to share and annotate some feedback we got
about the list. Lots of people leave it could've been anybody:
-=-We all have to be choosy about which email lists we read, just in terms of
volume and time. I stay with lists that give me ideas, suggestions,
encouragement, specific materials to use. I was put off by the
argumentative, overly philosophical,it-has-to-be-all-unschooling-all-the-time viewpoint.
Perhaps in the end, I don't argree with radical unschooling, and it seems that
that is what this list is about.-=-
My reflections:
-=-We all have to be choosy about which email lists we read, just in terms of
volume and time.-=-
Absolutely sensible and true.
-=- I stay with lists that give me ideas, suggestions, encouragement,
specific materials to use.-=-
This list abounds with ideas, suggestions and encouragement. Well... unless
it's encouragement about wanting specific materials to use. So there the
problem comes. Some people don't think "everything in the whole wide world" is
specific enough, and that "everything that comes into your path today" is
not much better. I disagree with them, but that's because I've used those
things to good effect for years and I see other unschoolers use them
fantastically. Like magic, there the world is, seeping right into your house every day,
shining through the windows, oozing under the door, open for exploration all
the time.
-=- I was put off by the argumentative, overly philosophical,
it-has-to-be-all-unschooling-all-the-time viewpoint.-=-
When people are put off they are. That's fine.
But "overly philosophical"?
The alternative is "underly philosophical," and that won't help unschoolers
much at all.
As to whether it has to be all unschooling all the time, it only needs to be
that for those who want unschooling.
As with other philosophies, it either is a priority or it isn't; it's either
an integral thing or it isn't.
If I want to be honest, I need to be all honest all the time. I can't say
"I'm honest, late afternoons and weekends." Or "I believe natural learning
can work, after I'm through with their lessons." Or "I think all things are
related, after school hours, but we don't talk about history during science
lessons and we don't bring literature up during history."
-=-Perhaps in the end, Idon't argree with radical unschooling, and it seems
that that is what this list is about.-=-
'Seems' madam? Nay, it is. I know not 'seems.'
Sandra
P.S. Probably lots of unschooled kids know that quote, even if they "aren't
old enough" or "haven't studied that." And if they don't, it doesn't matter
a single bit, if they know how to use google. And if they don't care and
don't look it up, it doesn't matter a single bit.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
their e-mail addresses and stay on the list as ghostly members). When people
unsubscribe, they get an automatically-sent questionnaire that Pam Sorooshian
designed (maybe because she's got that statistician thang going <g>) and some
respond and most don't.
No problem.
Yesterday the list was pretty quiet, but I posted the link to the new
improved "saying yes" page, and a couple of people left.
No problem.
I want to use it as a springboard to talk about the difference between
unschooling as it's discussed here and the simple absence of school or
school-at-home. There are people who say anyone who's homeschooling and not using a
curriculum is unschooling. I don't know of an English speaking country in
which it's not their legal right to say what they want about such things. I also
don't know an English speaking country (nor any other) in which just living
without a curriculum and changing nothing else in one's life is going to be a
sustainable (nor even nearly legal) model of what any government in any
language thinks is acceptable parenting or "education."
But I'm getting philosophical.
And I have to.
You can't scratch unschooling without hitting philosophy.
By philosophy I don't mean reading Socrates and Descarte. I mean
considering how things work and how, and what is meant by "parenting," and what is, can
be, and should be expected of children and adults,and how far one can
stretch the prevailing expectations and whether and how children can be treated as
their full, whole selves even from birth rather than as grubs without reality
or status until they "earn it' or "mature" or "become adults."
That is all philosophy: the idea of "ideas." The thinking about thinking.
The idea of who says yes and who says no, and when, and why, and how--that's
philosophy. Who owns what and whom? What are the rights of a human?
It's one thing to read what some old academic coot finally wrote at age 60
about the rights of man, but it's another to decide and then allow and assist
a three year old to exercise some rights today, May 29, 2005, without
permission of academic or political or medical personnel.
By the luggage carousel at the Sacramento airport (the old one, or a smaller
one, not by the really cool luggage art), Pat Farenga told me that once he
was spoke to a HUGE room at a state convention in the SE U.S. and there were
maybe 2000 people, and that was less than half of the attendees at the
convention. Huge. He was talking about the importance of giving kids choices, and
how it works for them to learn from their interests (regular unschooling
philosophy) and when he said something to the effect of "kids need to be able to
say no," half of those people stood up and walked out of that room.
That was an easily-gathered convention of people who do not believe that
children should be able to say no. And conversely I'm confident they DO think
parents should say "no," early and often, and back it up with a stick or a
belt (or other "consequences"). In their cases, because their priority is to
please religious authorities who say they are pleasing God, they should (within
their philosophy) say no.
I should, within my philosophy, say yes.
People who don't have a philosophy don't know when to say yes or no. And I
guess some want others to tell them what to do without bothering with why,
or what the considerations are one way or another. Parenting books are FULL
of "do this and then that and your child will..." sleep all night, or be
exactly average on weight charts, or make good grades.
A guy asked me years ago (in a hostile way, in an online chat) "Are you
willing to risk your child's future on your 'theories'?" Yes, I am. As was he.
Even if one's theory is that it's okay not to have a theory, that's a
belief upon when they're acting. They're living out of their peripheral vision,
doing what it seems the neighbors are doing. Why? Because the neighbors are
doing it. They take the voices in their head as experts and authorities, and
they just skim the surface of their internal feedback, and the first
grandmother or cranky aunt whose ghostly voice from childhood comes forth with some
gem of traditional family "wisdom" like "you don't need another one," or
"you're too little" or "get down from there or you'll break your neck" or "put
that stick down before you poke somebody's eye out," THAT passes for belief and
philosophy; the parent repeats the message and feels virtuously parental.
For those whose philosophy of the season involves "The Force," think of
Darth Grandma breathing softly into a father's ear "He doesn't need to play video
games" and the father repeating parrotically "You don't need to play video
games." "He needs to go to bed now." "You need to go to bed now." The
father isn't thinking of who is manipulating his thoughts or why, and he
doesn't WANT to think.
So In light of all this I'm going to share and annotate some feedback we got
about the list. Lots of people leave it could've been anybody:
-=-We all have to be choosy about which email lists we read, just in terms of
volume and time. I stay with lists that give me ideas, suggestions,
encouragement, specific materials to use. I was put off by the
argumentative, overly philosophical,it-has-to-be-all-unschooling-all-the-time viewpoint.
Perhaps in the end, I don't argree with radical unschooling, and it seems that
that is what this list is about.-=-
My reflections:
-=-We all have to be choosy about which email lists we read, just in terms of
volume and time.-=-
Absolutely sensible and true.
-=- I stay with lists that give me ideas, suggestions, encouragement,
specific materials to use.-=-
This list abounds with ideas, suggestions and encouragement. Well... unless
it's encouragement about wanting specific materials to use. So there the
problem comes. Some people don't think "everything in the whole wide world" is
specific enough, and that "everything that comes into your path today" is
not much better. I disagree with them, but that's because I've used those
things to good effect for years and I see other unschoolers use them
fantastically. Like magic, there the world is, seeping right into your house every day,
shining through the windows, oozing under the door, open for exploration all
the time.
-=- I was put off by the argumentative, overly philosophical,
it-has-to-be-all-unschooling-all-the-time viewpoint.-=-
When people are put off they are. That's fine.
But "overly philosophical"?
The alternative is "underly philosophical," and that won't help unschoolers
much at all.
As to whether it has to be all unschooling all the time, it only needs to be
that for those who want unschooling.
As with other philosophies, it either is a priority or it isn't; it's either
an integral thing or it isn't.
If I want to be honest, I need to be all honest all the time. I can't say
"I'm honest, late afternoons and weekends." Or "I believe natural learning
can work, after I'm through with their lessons." Or "I think all things are
related, after school hours, but we don't talk about history during science
lessons and we don't bring literature up during history."
-=-Perhaps in the end, Idon't argree with radical unschooling, and it seems
that that is what this list is about.-=-
'Seems' madam? Nay, it is. I know not 'seems.'
Sandra
P.S. Probably lots of unschooled kids know that quote, even if they "aren't
old enough" or "haven't studied that." And if they don't, it doesn't matter
a single bit, if they know how to use google. And if they don't care and
don't look it up, it doesn't matter a single bit.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<-=-Perhaps in the end, Idon't argree with radical unschooling, and it
seems
that that is what this list is about.-=-
'Seems' madam? Nay, it is. I know not 'seems.' >>>>
Over on Always Unschooled we have the words "Radical Unschooling" in the
list description - TWICE.
We still get people occasionally being surprised that we emphasize Radical
Unschooling in our discussions. They will often begin their dissenting posts
with the phrase "Don't you think that...."
No I *don't* think that, but at least I *think*.
I'm convinced that some folk just don't read beyond the keywords in Yahoo
before joining lists.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.2.0 - Release Date: 5/27/2005
seems
that that is what this list is about.-=-
'Seems' madam? Nay, it is. I know not 'seems.' >>>>
Over on Always Unschooled we have the words "Radical Unschooling" in the
list description - TWICE.
We still get people occasionally being surprised that we emphasize Radical
Unschooling in our discussions. They will often begin their dissenting posts
with the phrase "Don't you think that...."
No I *don't* think that, but at least I *think*.
I'm convinced that some folk just don't read beyond the keywords in Yahoo
before joining lists.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.2.0 - Release Date: 5/27/2005
Elizabeth Hill
**
When people are put off they are. That's fine.
But "overly philosophical"?
The alternative is "underly philosophical," and that won't help unschoolers
much at all.**
I think we mostly come from public school backgrounds, and that's a *fine* (and sad) example of an under-ly philosophical environment. Perhaps parts of our brains start to atrophy? <g> (Many of us are going to be rusty in pondering philosophical precepts.)
Maybe some unschooling beginners need (want?) something linear and concrete to start with. (Because some of them do seem to be looking for some rules or a "recipe".) People must come here with some pretty strong preconceptions about learning, and deep philosophical discussions right off the bat may be too confusing for some of them, maybe? I'm thinking about the principle that we can't learn when we are confused. Some of them have to work their way through confusion, and may need simpler or more orderly information at first?
I'd guess that there are some people who research unschooling merely to be thorough and review all of the "homeschooling styles". They may have no attraction to unschooling, and merely be attempting to be neutrally open-minded while they check out all of the possibilities. Or, it may be that while the parent isn't at all attracted to unschooling, they realize that their child isn't at all attracted to curriculum and won't do that kind of "educational" rigamarole without pushing, screaming and threats. For us, unschooling is the answer -- but what if people are wildly uncomfortable with what they imagine unschooling to be? I can dredge up some sympathy for this (imagined) type of person who isn't stern enough to push curriculum on a miserable child, but who has found public school to be dreadful and thinks unschooling is risky and implausible.
We likely have people stopping by here who think that their children can only learn when forced, and that they (the adults) can only learn when forced, and (drat it!) we have no power to force them to stay here and "do their unschooling homework". (I shudder to think what the pop quizzes would look like. <g>)
Betsy
When people are put off they are. That's fine.
But "overly philosophical"?
The alternative is "underly philosophical," and that won't help unschoolers
much at all.**
I think we mostly come from public school backgrounds, and that's a *fine* (and sad) example of an under-ly philosophical environment. Perhaps parts of our brains start to atrophy? <g> (Many of us are going to be rusty in pondering philosophical precepts.)
Maybe some unschooling beginners need (want?) something linear and concrete to start with. (Because some of them do seem to be looking for some rules or a "recipe".) People must come here with some pretty strong preconceptions about learning, and deep philosophical discussions right off the bat may be too confusing for some of them, maybe? I'm thinking about the principle that we can't learn when we are confused. Some of them have to work their way through confusion, and may need simpler or more orderly information at first?
I'd guess that there are some people who research unschooling merely to be thorough and review all of the "homeschooling styles". They may have no attraction to unschooling, and merely be attempting to be neutrally open-minded while they check out all of the possibilities. Or, it may be that while the parent isn't at all attracted to unschooling, they realize that their child isn't at all attracted to curriculum and won't do that kind of "educational" rigamarole without pushing, screaming and threats. For us, unschooling is the answer -- but what if people are wildly uncomfortable with what they imagine unschooling to be? I can dredge up some sympathy for this (imagined) type of person who isn't stern enough to push curriculum on a miserable child, but who has found public school to be dreadful and thinks unschooling is risky and implausible.
We likely have people stopping by here who think that their children can only learn when forced, and that they (the adults) can only learn when forced, and (drat it!) we have no power to force them to stay here and "do their unschooling homework". (I shudder to think what the pop quizzes would look like. <g>)
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/29/2005 5:18:08 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
I'm thinking about the principle that we can't learn when we are confused.
HEY! Pam Sorooshian said that. <g>
I just linked that on my Pam Sorooshian page (everyone should have one)
_http://sandradodd.com/pamsorooshian_ (http://sandradodd.com/pamsorooshian)
It's on Dan Vilter's fine site.
Thanks for bringing that up! <g>
-=-For us, unschooling is the answer -- but what if people are wildly
uncomfortable with what they imagine unschooling to be? -=-
I don't know the answer to that. Maybe the Unschooling Basics list?
Maybe reading The Unschooling Handbook?
What I do know is that if we say, "Yes, that's right! That's a good as it
needs to be," lots of people will give up because it doesn't seem to be enough.
-=- I can dredge up some sympathy for this (imagined) type of person who
isn't stern enough to push curriculum on a miserable child, but who has found
public school to be dreadful and thinks unschooling is risky and implausible.
-=-
Enough sympathy to try to help them make it workable so that their kids
don't end up back in school after some (imagined?) screaming fight and possible
near divorce because they really didn't get it, they just hoped that if they
let the kid do whatever he wanted to, that he would study American history at
15, world history at 16, biology and chemistry and physics (in that order)
etc...
I feel for the kids first and the moms less. If someone says she wants to
dedicate the kind of time and energy it's going to take to homeschool in ANY
fashion, it seems to me it's worth helping her do it thoroughly and deeply,
rather than helping set her up to fail by making it seem smaller or easier or
less philosophical than it is.
-=-We likely have people stopping by here who think that their children can
only learn when forced, and that they (the adults) can only learn when forced,
and (drat it!) we have no power to force them to stay here and "do their
unschooling homework". (I shudder to think what the pop quizzes would look
like. <g>)
-=-
The pop quiz would be unscheduled home visits. The unschooling child
services officers with clipboards.
Those who DO want to hang out and do some unschooling homework (shuddering
about that one <g>) can come to it slowly or quickly, but those who ONLY want
to follow the directions. . . I don't know.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
I'm thinking about the principle that we can't learn when we are confused.
HEY! Pam Sorooshian said that. <g>
I just linked that on my Pam Sorooshian page (everyone should have one)
_http://sandradodd.com/pamsorooshian_ (http://sandradodd.com/pamsorooshian)
It's on Dan Vilter's fine site.
Thanks for bringing that up! <g>
-=-For us, unschooling is the answer -- but what if people are wildly
uncomfortable with what they imagine unschooling to be? -=-
I don't know the answer to that. Maybe the Unschooling Basics list?
Maybe reading The Unschooling Handbook?
What I do know is that if we say, "Yes, that's right! That's a good as it
needs to be," lots of people will give up because it doesn't seem to be enough.
-=- I can dredge up some sympathy for this (imagined) type of person who
isn't stern enough to push curriculum on a miserable child, but who has found
public school to be dreadful and thinks unschooling is risky and implausible.
-=-
Enough sympathy to try to help them make it workable so that their kids
don't end up back in school after some (imagined?) screaming fight and possible
near divorce because they really didn't get it, they just hoped that if they
let the kid do whatever he wanted to, that he would study American history at
15, world history at 16, biology and chemistry and physics (in that order)
etc...
I feel for the kids first and the moms less. If someone says she wants to
dedicate the kind of time and energy it's going to take to homeschool in ANY
fashion, it seems to me it's worth helping her do it thoroughly and deeply,
rather than helping set her up to fail by making it seem smaller or easier or
less philosophical than it is.
-=-We likely have people stopping by here who think that their children can
only learn when forced, and that they (the adults) can only learn when forced,
and (drat it!) we have no power to force them to stay here and "do their
unschooling homework". (I shudder to think what the pop quizzes would look
like. <g>)
-=-
The pop quiz would be unscheduled home visits. The unschooling child
services officers with clipboards.
Those who DO want to hang out and do some unschooling homework (shuddering
about that one <g>) can come to it slowly or quickly, but those who ONLY want
to follow the directions. . . I don't know.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On May 29, 2005, at 4:25 PM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
concretely how to help their kids learn to add fractions or spell
"fractions" or say "fractions" in Spanish <G>. They expect to find out
what materials we're "using."
Interestingly, we really seldom talk on this list about what our kids
are actually learning. I think that is what they're looking for and not
finding and when they say we're too "philosophical" they mean we're
just not giving them the kind of specific information they're looking
for.
They want to hear how I gave my little daughter a $20 bill and sent her
over to buy a couple of cookies at the little shop in the mall. How I
told her that was a lot of money for just buying a couple of cookies
and she should get at least $15 back - so check her change before
leaving the counter. And how the clerk only gave her a five and some
change and she said, "I think you owe me more change," and then the
clerk gave her another ten. Quite a nice little "lesson." Right?
Then they want to take THEIR little girl to the mall and sit across the
mall and give her $20 and send her to buy a couple of cookies and
remind her to check her change. Aaaargh.
What they MISS is that I had a broken leg (literally) and we were at
the mall for a reason and I was worn out and we just wanted cookies so
I gave her money to go get them and it was just one of those weird
coincidences that I thought to say "Check your change," and then it
turned out the clerk DID give her the wrong change. They can't
reproduce that. They'll have their OWN check-your-change experiences
and maybe won't even have to break their leg to do it <g>.
But that's what they're looking for - a list that is filled with
"unschooling methods" - ways that unschoolers' get their kids to learn
things.
It isn't like we never do this - we talk about how we "strew" things to
create a rich and stimulating and fun and interesting environment. But
I think they're wanting the list to be far MORE about that - they want
to know what, exactly, it is that we're strewing and what the kids are
learning from it. Again, we do a bit of talking about this - and it is
interesting more as "examples" of what unschooling can be like - but I
think they're disappointed not to find the list mostly that so that
they can actually "use" some of what they find.
-pam
> When people are put off they are. That's fine.They want specific resource recommendations. They want to know very
> But "overly philosophical"?
> The alternative is "underly philosophical," and that won't help
> unschoolers
> much at all.**
concretely how to help their kids learn to add fractions or spell
"fractions" or say "fractions" in Spanish <G>. They expect to find out
what materials we're "using."
Interestingly, we really seldom talk on this list about what our kids
are actually learning. I think that is what they're looking for and not
finding and when they say we're too "philosophical" they mean we're
just not giving them the kind of specific information they're looking
for.
They want to hear how I gave my little daughter a $20 bill and sent her
over to buy a couple of cookies at the little shop in the mall. How I
told her that was a lot of money for just buying a couple of cookies
and she should get at least $15 back - so check her change before
leaving the counter. And how the clerk only gave her a five and some
change and she said, "I think you owe me more change," and then the
clerk gave her another ten. Quite a nice little "lesson." Right?
Then they want to take THEIR little girl to the mall and sit across the
mall and give her $20 and send her to buy a couple of cookies and
remind her to check her change. Aaaargh.
What they MISS is that I had a broken leg (literally) and we were at
the mall for a reason and I was worn out and we just wanted cookies so
I gave her money to go get them and it was just one of those weird
coincidences that I thought to say "Check your change," and then it
turned out the clerk DID give her the wrong change. They can't
reproduce that. They'll have their OWN check-your-change experiences
and maybe won't even have to break their leg to do it <g>.
But that's what they're looking for - a list that is filled with
"unschooling methods" - ways that unschoolers' get their kids to learn
things.
It isn't like we never do this - we talk about how we "strew" things to
create a rich and stimulating and fun and interesting environment. But
I think they're wanting the list to be far MORE about that - they want
to know what, exactly, it is that we're strewing and what the kids are
learning from it. Again, we do a bit of talking about this - and it is
interesting more as "examples" of what unschooling can be like - but I
think they're disappointed not to find the list mostly that so that
they can actually "use" some of what they find.
-pam
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
joined? Baby steps. Sometimes I think what happens for new list
members is that they are overwhelmed with the scope of the unschooling
vision. It takes time to digest all the ways that unschooling
influences your parenting.
So, for instance, I had a child who definitely needed to have control
over his education. That drew me to unschooling. But I hadn't thought
about the fact that maybe he needed control over lots of other things
too. Then that discovery set up a crisis - would my husband be on
board for letting go of chores, control over movie viewing and music?
Then I had to rethink how we parented and how we thought about
parenting, not just how to educate him.
There is a moment where you think you can get away with doing it
differently (than list members) because you are a unique family, or
you have a theology/philosophy that is different than what is
postulated on the list and therefore you get a "free pass" to unschool
in a unique way...
But then that way doesn't produce the results advertized on the list
so you come back with questions hoping someone will hear that you are
struggling and what you really want is permission to struggle, not
reminders to change. <g> So then frustration sets in as the cognitive
dissonance grows. Confidence wanes and going back to familiar
territory is easier than wading further into the deep water of
unschooling.
It takes a long, long time to get it (I am still in that process, even
though I've been reading this list for two and half years and started
unschooling (or so I thought) right then). I keep seeing ways I
retreat from unschooling with a few of my kids.
The layers of (excuse my French) educational sh** I have to weed
through that I didn't even know were there.... Ugh!
It may be hard for those of you who have unschooled all your lives to
grasp what a worldview crasher unschooling is. And then those of us
like me trying to "get it" live in communities that reinforce the
belief that unschooling is crazy.
Example: I called college admissions for one of my kids last week
(she's interested in Boston College). When the admissions counselor
started ticking off what my dd needed to do as a homeschooler to get
in, I felt that familiar sick feeling of panic. What if she wants to
go there but I've prevented her by not having her follow a curriculum
(which they stated over and over again she had to do)?
So what am I to do? And can that be discussed here? Those are the
kinds of thoughts that run through my head.
Personally, I am over feeling attacked by challenging feedback. I
welcome the direct approach. Sometimes that is the only way to "get
it." But I can see that those who feel fragile find it difficult to
honestly share where they are stuck because they are terrified of
failing their kids or being correctd and don't have the confidence to
trust unschooling all the way.
Julie B
>who
> -=- I can dredge up some sympathy for this (imagined) type of person
> isn't stern enough to push curriculum on a miserable child, but whohas found
> public school to be dreadful and thinks unschooling is risky andimplausible.
> -=-wants to
>
> I feel for the kids first and the moms less. If someone says she
> dedicate the kind of time and energy it's going to take tohomeschool in ANY
> fashion, it seems to me it's worth helping her do it thoroughly anddeeply,
> rather than helping set her up to fail by making it seem smaller oreasier or
> less philosophical than it is.Can I just remind you of something you shared back when I first
joined? Baby steps. Sometimes I think what happens for new list
members is that they are overwhelmed with the scope of the unschooling
vision. It takes time to digest all the ways that unschooling
influences your parenting.
So, for instance, I had a child who definitely needed to have control
over his education. That drew me to unschooling. But I hadn't thought
about the fact that maybe he needed control over lots of other things
too. Then that discovery set up a crisis - would my husband be on
board for letting go of chores, control over movie viewing and music?
Then I had to rethink how we parented and how we thought about
parenting, not just how to educate him.
There is a moment where you think you can get away with doing it
differently (than list members) because you are a unique family, or
you have a theology/philosophy that is different than what is
postulated on the list and therefore you get a "free pass" to unschool
in a unique way...
But then that way doesn't produce the results advertized on the list
so you come back with questions hoping someone will hear that you are
struggling and what you really want is permission to struggle, not
reminders to change. <g> So then frustration sets in as the cognitive
dissonance grows. Confidence wanes and going back to familiar
territory is easier than wading further into the deep water of
unschooling.
It takes a long, long time to get it (I am still in that process, even
though I've been reading this list for two and half years and started
unschooling (or so I thought) right then). I keep seeing ways I
retreat from unschooling with a few of my kids.
The layers of (excuse my French) educational sh** I have to weed
through that I didn't even know were there.... Ugh!
It may be hard for those of you who have unschooled all your lives to
grasp what a worldview crasher unschooling is. And then those of us
like me trying to "get it" live in communities that reinforce the
belief that unschooling is crazy.
Example: I called college admissions for one of my kids last week
(she's interested in Boston College). When the admissions counselor
started ticking off what my dd needed to do as a homeschooler to get
in, I felt that familiar sick feeling of panic. What if she wants to
go there but I've prevented her by not having her follow a curriculum
(which they stated over and over again she had to do)?
So what am I to do? And can that be discussed here? Those are the
kinds of thoughts that run through my head.
Personally, I am over feeling attacked by challenging feedback. I
welcome the direct approach. Sometimes that is the only way to "get
it." But I can see that those who feel fragile find it difficult to
honestly share where they are stuck because they are terrified of
failing their kids or being correctd and don't have the confidence to
trust unschooling all the way.
Julie B
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/29/2005 7:12:44 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
It isn't like we never do this - we talk about how we "strew" things to
create a rich and stimulating and fun and interesting environment. But
I think they're wanting the list to be far MORE about that - they want
to know what, exactly, it is that we're strewing and what the kids are
learning from it.
Okay. More specific.
Watch whichever movie comes along in your lives next. Then watch another
movie related to it in some way, like
same historical period
same physical setting (another movie about Thailand, or NYC, or South Africa)
same director
one of the actors is in the other movie
same genre of movie
a remake of the movie
musical version of the story
same composer did the score of both
Watch a third movie. Doesn't matter which movie in the whole world. Random.
Without even trying there will be similarities or differences (schoolterm:
"comparison/contrast") to the two you already saw.
If a family were to do that and report back to the list what they learned
and all the cool side conversations and the trip to the video store and what
they ate (whether while watching or later while they discussed it) and the many
things that came up serendipitously over the next few days that related to
the movie, then they would already be getting unschooling.
And when people join the list, don't they get links to places that have
links to other places? They want the list to tell them everything they need to
know? How often should we repeat everything everyone needs to know? Weekly?
Daily?
I'm working on a "how to begin unschooling" article for unschooling.info,
but I keep thinking all the parts are written and it will end up being a link of
lists, and advice like "change yourself into an unschooling mom."
It's kind of frustrating. If we were "running courses," there would be
starting times. "The next course begins June 6."
Home Education Magazine was thinking of doing online classes a few years ago
and I was asked if I would teach a class on unschooling (like people would
pay money to take an online class). I said I thought it wasn't the way to
learn about unschooling. Maybe I was wrong. I hate to think that. It seems
people who need that course would think their kids would need courses, and they
would want a refresher course later on why the first course didn't work.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
It isn't like we never do this - we talk about how we "strew" things to
create a rich and stimulating and fun and interesting environment. But
I think they're wanting the list to be far MORE about that - they want
to know what, exactly, it is that we're strewing and what the kids are
learning from it.
Okay. More specific.
Watch whichever movie comes along in your lives next. Then watch another
movie related to it in some way, like
same historical period
same physical setting (another movie about Thailand, or NYC, or South Africa)
same director
one of the actors is in the other movie
same genre of movie
a remake of the movie
musical version of the story
same composer did the score of both
Watch a third movie. Doesn't matter which movie in the whole world. Random.
Without even trying there will be similarities or differences (schoolterm:
"comparison/contrast") to the two you already saw.
If a family were to do that and report back to the list what they learned
and all the cool side conversations and the trip to the video store and what
they ate (whether while watching or later while they discussed it) and the many
things that came up serendipitously over the next few days that related to
the movie, then they would already be getting unschooling.
And when people join the list, don't they get links to places that have
links to other places? They want the list to tell them everything they need to
know? How often should we repeat everything everyone needs to know? Weekly?
Daily?
I'm working on a "how to begin unschooling" article for unschooling.info,
but I keep thinking all the parts are written and it will end up being a link of
lists, and advice like "change yourself into an unschooling mom."
It's kind of frustrating. If we were "running courses," there would be
starting times. "The next course begins June 6."
Home Education Magazine was thinking of doing online classes a few years ago
and I was asked if I would teach a class on unschooling (like people would
pay money to take an online class). I said I thought it wasn't the way to
learn about unschooling. Maybe I was wrong. I hate to think that. It seems
people who need that course would think their kids would need courses, and they
would want a refresher course later on why the first course didn't work.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/29/2005 7:42:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
julie@... writes:
But then that way doesn't produce the results advertized on the list
so you come back with questions hoping someone will hear that you are
struggling and what you really want is permission to struggle, not
reminders to change. <g>
===========
Do you really think we should "give people permission to struggle"? Maybe
I'm missing humor (sorry if so), but what's happening with that mom's kids
during the time that other moms coo and soothe? Is he still feeling lost and
pressured and is he crying himself to sleep?
I cried myself to sleep many times as a child. I (retroactively) curse
anyone who was soothing my mom while I was crying until my stomach hurt, alone in
my bed.
-=-It takes a long, long time to get it=-
It shouldn't need to take a long long time to get it if people actively move
toward getting it.
People don't have a long, long time. Their children are older every minute
of every day.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
But then that way doesn't produce the results advertized on the list
so you come back with questions hoping someone will hear that you are
struggling and what you really want is permission to struggle, not
reminders to change. <g>
===========
Do you really think we should "give people permission to struggle"? Maybe
I'm missing humor (sorry if so), but what's happening with that mom's kids
during the time that other moms coo and soothe? Is he still feeling lost and
pressured and is he crying himself to sleep?
I cried myself to sleep many times as a child. I (retroactively) curse
anyone who was soothing my mom while I was crying until my stomach hurt, alone in
my bed.
-=-It takes a long, long time to get it=-
It shouldn't need to take a long long time to get it if people actively move
toward getting it.
People don't have a long, long time. Their children are older every minute
of every day.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**
Can I just remind you of something you shared back when I first
joined? Baby steps. Sometimes I think what happens for new list
members is that they are overwhelmed with the scope of the unschooling
vision. It takes time to digest all the ways that unschooling
influences your parenting.**
If we think of this list as an unschooling "sales pitch", well then, yeah we don't want our "prospects" (readers) to run from the room screaming right off the bat. <g>
On the flip side, if unschooling is a ten step process, we probably don't want to address and re-address step 1 the majority of the time.
That reminds me that recently when people talked about coming to unschooling through La Leche League, I thought that maybe having a set of four or more informal rotating topics might be useful for this list. (This only makes sense in slow periods.)
**
Personally, I am over feeling attacked by challenging feedback. I
welcome the direct approach. Sometimes that is the only way to "get
it." But I can see that those who feel fragile find it difficult to
honestly share where they are stuck because they are terrified of
failing their kids or being correctd and don't have the confidence to
trust unschooling all the way.**
Challenging feedback gets the message out clearly, but, yeah, lots of people avoid it.
Certainly I don't often want to admit my failings and hear suggestions. (Eek!) I really don't like to concede that there is room for improvement!
Life has been downright sluggish at my house the month of May, but son and spouse have had annoying hacking coughs for the past three weeks. It may be to be expected that we aren't going many places. I kept thinking my son was going to be done feeling tired and be ready to leap at one of my suggestions. Well, not yet. (And now I'm getting the coughing crud myself. Rats!)
Betsy
Can I just remind you of something you shared back when I first
joined? Baby steps. Sometimes I think what happens for new list
members is that they are overwhelmed with the scope of the unschooling
vision. It takes time to digest all the ways that unschooling
influences your parenting.**
If we think of this list as an unschooling "sales pitch", well then, yeah we don't want our "prospects" (readers) to run from the room screaming right off the bat. <g>
On the flip side, if unschooling is a ten step process, we probably don't want to address and re-address step 1 the majority of the time.
That reminds me that recently when people talked about coming to unschooling through La Leche League, I thought that maybe having a set of four or more informal rotating topics might be useful for this list. (This only makes sense in slow periods.)
**
Personally, I am over feeling attacked by challenging feedback. I
welcome the direct approach. Sometimes that is the only way to "get
it." But I can see that those who feel fragile find it difficult to
honestly share where they are stuck because they are terrified of
failing their kids or being correctd and don't have the confidence to
trust unschooling all the way.**
Challenging feedback gets the message out clearly, but, yeah, lots of people avoid it.
Certainly I don't often want to admit my failings and hear suggestions. (Eek!) I really don't like to concede that there is room for improvement!
Life has been downright sluggish at my house the month of May, but son and spouse have had annoying hacking coughs for the past three weeks. It may be to be expected that we aren't going many places. I kept thinking my son was going to be done feeling tired and be ready to leap at one of my suggestions. Well, not yet. (And now I'm getting the coughing crud myself. Rats!)
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/29/2005 9:48:19 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
I thought that maybe having a set of four or more informal rotating topics
might be useful for this list.
====================
That could be fun to at least try for one rotation.
So what are the four or more topics people need to discuss to get
unschooling?
In LLL, weaning/solids (for example) comes around once a month, and not all
the moms are needing it every time, but some people only go to four meetings
and have to do with what they can from memory and books if they don't want to
go back.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
I thought that maybe having a set of four or more informal rotating topics
might be useful for this list.
====================
That could be fun to at least try for one rotation.
So what are the four or more topics people need to discuss to get
unschooling?
In LLL, weaning/solids (for example) comes around once a month, and not all
the moms are needing it every time, but some people only go to four meetings
and have to do with what they can from memory and books if they don't want to
go back.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
describing what I think happens. I love this list because it isn't
about cooing and pampering the hurt in mothers. But it takes time to
get that that is empowering. It's very different than what most
women's groups do for each other.
but what's happening with that mom's kids
But it might help to remind moms too that the transition takes a
l-o-n-g time mentally even though they can make practical changes
immediately that benefit the child.
list of moms who have actively moved toward getting it.
We've made all kinds of changes. Last night I talked with my husband
about this stuff again. We both see that our youngest two are living
as unschooled kids, all the way. The older three have their own
process of stuff to move through having not been unschooled from the
beginning.
I agree that you can't take a long time to decide to breast-feed
because while you are reasearching and bottle-feeding, the child is
outgrowing breastfeeding and missing all it's about.
Otoh, you can choose to breastfeed in spite of how you think about
it... and then find yourself at nine months wondering if this is long
enough, at 15 months asking if he really shouldn't be sleeping through
the night yet and can you just wean him at night, and then at 22
months find out that all your friends are horrified that you still
breastfeed and wonder if he'll stop any time soon and so on....
All the while you are breast-feeding, but also encountering the layers
of your belief about feeding that you hadn't even confronted when you
began.
I had no difficulties with breast-feeding. I never felt any of those
pressures. But as an LLL leader, I encountered this kind of thing over
and over again.
It's similar with education. You can start down the right path, but
that doesn't mean you stay there easily, confidently. You have to keep
reimagining what it is to stay there as the kids get older, as options
for their future emerge, as their personalities bring new ideas and
desires to the table.
That's what I mean by "getting it."
All the while we unschool.
Julie B
>Maybe
> In a message dated 5/29/2005 7:42:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> julie@b... writes:
>
> But then that way doesn't produce the results advertized on the list
> so you come back with questions hoping someone will hear that you are
> struggling and what you really want is permission to struggle, not
> reminders to change. <g>
>
>
> ===========
>
> Do you really think we should "give people permission to struggle"?
> I'm missing humor (sorry if so),I don't think you should give permission to struggle... I was simply
describing what I think happens. I love this list because it isn't
about cooing and pampering the hurt in mothers. But it takes time to
get that that is empowering. It's very different than what most
women's groups do for each other.
but what's happening with that mom's kids
> during the time that other moms coo and soothe? Is he still feelinglost and
> pressured and is he crying himself to sleep?Right. That's why you have to keep putting out the other perspective.
But it might help to remind moms too that the transition takes a
l-o-n-g time mentally even though they can make practical changes
immediately that benefit the child.
>actively move
> -=-It takes a long, long time to get it=-
>
> It shouldn't need to take a long long time to get it if people
> toward getting it.I disagree. I have actively moved toward getting it. I am on another
list of moms who have actively moved toward getting it.
We've made all kinds of changes. Last night I talked with my husband
about this stuff again. We both see that our youngest two are living
as unschooled kids, all the way. The older three have their own
process of stuff to move through having not been unschooled from the
beginning.
>minute
> People don't have a long, long time. Their children are older every
> of every day.Let me use a breast-feeding analogy.
I agree that you can't take a long time to decide to breast-feed
because while you are reasearching and bottle-feeding, the child is
outgrowing breastfeeding and missing all it's about.
Otoh, you can choose to breastfeed in spite of how you think about
it... and then find yourself at nine months wondering if this is long
enough, at 15 months asking if he really shouldn't be sleeping through
the night yet and can you just wean him at night, and then at 22
months find out that all your friends are horrified that you still
breastfeed and wonder if he'll stop any time soon and so on....
All the while you are breast-feeding, but also encountering the layers
of your belief about feeding that you hadn't even confronted when you
began.
I had no difficulties with breast-feeding. I never felt any of those
pressures. But as an LLL leader, I encountered this kind of thing over
and over again.
It's similar with education. You can start down the right path, but
that doesn't mean you stay there easily, confidently. You have to keep
reimagining what it is to stay there as the kids get older, as options
for their future emerge, as their personalities bring new ideas and
desires to the table.
That's what I mean by "getting it."
All the while we unschool.
Julie B
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
1. Getting started
2. Strewing
3. Teens
4. Saying Yes
--
Just some ideas...
Julie B
>What about...
> That could be fun to at least try for one rotation.
>
> So what are the four or more topics people need to discuss to get
> unschooling?
>
1. Getting started
2. Strewing
3. Teens
4. Saying Yes
--
Just some ideas...
Julie B
wifetovegman2002
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
It is encouraging and affirming...especially when I hear about
children older than my own, or doing different interests than my own.
Some people find it intimidating, though, if they hear that someone's
child is giving piano concerts at the local music hall or has recently
had their novel published, or whatever, and think that if their child
isn't doing the same then they are not successfully unschooling.
I had a friend tell me that she wanted to unschool, but couldn't until
her son learned time management skills because otherwise he would
never want to do his schoolwork on his own without her nagging him.
=-o She also said her son probably inhereted her family's poor time
management genes (huh????)?
Well, here is my recent laundry list of things Sarah has learned in
the last month. They don't sound like school; they sound like life:
Sarah (15-1/2) has her first "real" summer job.
So far:
1) She has had to fill out tax forms and an application, obtain a work
permit, and get her own checking account.
2) She has had to become re-certified in cpr and first aid, and get
certified in water safety/lifeguard rescue.
3) She has had to learn about sexual predators at public waterparks
and how to identify them and report them, and what types of behaviors
are signals something is wrong.
4) She has had to learn about sexual harrassment on the work force.
5) She has had to learn about crowd control and what to do in case of
a bomb threat at the park.
6) She is learning about being an employee, and part of a team.
7) She is learning to appreciate those who are in positions of keeping
people safe and secure in a way that she was never aware of before.
8) She is learning how tired she can be at the end of a work shift.
9) She is learning the importance of eating regularly and drinking
lots of fluid to keep from becoming fatigued and dehydrated while on
the job.
10) She is learning the frustration of not being able to do
*everything* she wants to because now she has a job schedule to consider.
11) She is learning independence and responsibility and how to deal
with stresss and frustration.
12) She is learning how to deal with angry and upset patrons.
13) She is learning how to exert authority without becoming
dictatorial (I hope).
14) She is learning how fast money goes when it is spent on luxuries
instead of saved and budgeted.
15) She is learning if she doesn't dry her suit and towel when she
gets home, they will still be damp and probably stinky the next day.
I'm sure there are tons of other things she is learning as well.
Some people will look at that list and think, "Yeah, but what about
geometry and world literature?" They just don't get it.
~ Susan M (VA)
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html
"Lots of people make this point, but I never see the negation as
negative in a value-judgment sense when I use the word--to me
unschooling is as positive as unchaining, unbinding, unleashing,
unfolding, unfurling, unlimiting....All mean freedom and growth and
vast possibilities to me." ~ Suzanne Carter
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> Interestingly, we really seldom talk on this list about what our kidsI do like to hear what other people's unschooled children are doing.
> are actually learning. I think that is what they're looking for and not
> finding and when they say we're too "philosophical" they mean we're
> just not giving them the kind of specific information they're looking
> for.
It is encouraging and affirming...especially when I hear about
children older than my own, or doing different interests than my own.
Some people find it intimidating, though, if they hear that someone's
child is giving piano concerts at the local music hall or has recently
had their novel published, or whatever, and think that if their child
isn't doing the same then they are not successfully unschooling.
I had a friend tell me that she wanted to unschool, but couldn't until
her son learned time management skills because otherwise he would
never want to do his schoolwork on his own without her nagging him.
=-o She also said her son probably inhereted her family's poor time
management genes (huh????)?
Well, here is my recent laundry list of things Sarah has learned in
the last month. They don't sound like school; they sound like life:
Sarah (15-1/2) has her first "real" summer job.
So far:
1) She has had to fill out tax forms and an application, obtain a work
permit, and get her own checking account.
2) She has had to become re-certified in cpr and first aid, and get
certified in water safety/lifeguard rescue.
3) She has had to learn about sexual predators at public waterparks
and how to identify them and report them, and what types of behaviors
are signals something is wrong.
4) She has had to learn about sexual harrassment on the work force.
5) She has had to learn about crowd control and what to do in case of
a bomb threat at the park.
6) She is learning about being an employee, and part of a team.
7) She is learning to appreciate those who are in positions of keeping
people safe and secure in a way that she was never aware of before.
8) She is learning how tired she can be at the end of a work shift.
9) She is learning the importance of eating regularly and drinking
lots of fluid to keep from becoming fatigued and dehydrated while on
the job.
10) She is learning the frustration of not being able to do
*everything* she wants to because now she has a job schedule to consider.
11) She is learning independence and responsibility and how to deal
with stresss and frustration.
12) She is learning how to deal with angry and upset patrons.
13) She is learning how to exert authority without becoming
dictatorial (I hope).
14) She is learning how fast money goes when it is spent on luxuries
instead of saved and budgeted.
15) She is learning if she doesn't dry her suit and towel when she
gets home, they will still be damp and probably stinky the next day.
I'm sure there are tons of other things she is learning as well.
Some people will look at that list and think, "Yeah, but what about
geometry and world literature?" They just don't get it.
~ Susan M (VA)
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html
"Lots of people make this point, but I never see the negation as
negative in a value-judgment sense when I use the word--to me
unschooling is as positive as unchaining, unbinding, unleashing,
unfolding, unfurling, unlimiting....All mean freedom and growth and
vast possibilities to me." ~ Suzanne Carter
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/29/2005 11:32:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
and I was asked if I would teach a class on unschooling (like people would
pay money to take an online class). I said I thought it wasn't the way to
learn about unschooling. Maybe I was wrong. I hate to think that. It
seems
people who need that course would think their kids would need courses, and
they
would want a refresher course later on why the first course didn't work.<<<
I don't think you were wrong although when I first started unschooling I
wanted something or someone to tell me how to "get it". It took months for me
to even begin to grasp the depth of unschooling and 2 years later I'm still
learning, understanding and incorporating the philosophy into the way I live
my life.
Unschooling is so much more an ongoing process and just not like picking up
a book or taking a course. When I started homeschooling when Brenna was 8,
it was so easy for me.
I bought books, I joined a homeschool group, we went on field trips, I went
to curriculum fairs, we did school at home and I made portfolios. Piece of
cake. It just wasn't the right piece of cake...>g<
Unschooling is woven into our lives now and seems so natural. I can't
imagine our lives any other way. While it appeared to be an easy transition for
both my husband and children, it was grueling for me. I had to let go of most
if not all of my beliefs about parenting and learning before I could even
begin to make room for unschooling. I embraced the philosophy but I had to
change me from the inside out and that took re-evaluation, massive amounts of
time reading and thinking, changes in my interactions with my family and after
a couple of years a realization I finally did "get it" and we are living it.
Learning to say yes was one of my biggest challenges.
We came to unschooling later than many as my children were 10 and 13 but I
think it was soon enough to make huge positive differences in their lives.
Perhaps there are people who come to unschooling and do get it easily and
quickly. For me, it was a difficult change but I never once thought it was
not possible. It has been worth every moment.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
>>>Home Education Magazine was thinking of doing online classes a few yearsago
and I was asked if I would teach a class on unschooling (like people would
pay money to take an online class). I said I thought it wasn't the way to
learn about unschooling. Maybe I was wrong. I hate to think that. It
seems
people who need that course would think their kids would need courses, and
they
would want a refresher course later on why the first course didn't work.<<<
I don't think you were wrong although when I first started unschooling I
wanted something or someone to tell me how to "get it". It took months for me
to even begin to grasp the depth of unschooling and 2 years later I'm still
learning, understanding and incorporating the philosophy into the way I live
my life.
Unschooling is so much more an ongoing process and just not like picking up
a book or taking a course. When I started homeschooling when Brenna was 8,
it was so easy for me.
I bought books, I joined a homeschool group, we went on field trips, I went
to curriculum fairs, we did school at home and I made portfolios. Piece of
cake. It just wasn't the right piece of cake...>g<
Unschooling is woven into our lives now and seems so natural. I can't
imagine our lives any other way. While it appeared to be an easy transition for
both my husband and children, it was grueling for me. I had to let go of most
if not all of my beliefs about parenting and learning before I could even
begin to make room for unschooling. I embraced the philosophy but I had to
change me from the inside out and that took re-evaluation, massive amounts of
time reading and thinking, changes in my interactions with my family and after
a couple of years a realization I finally did "get it" and we are living it.
Learning to say yes was one of my biggest challenges.
We came to unschooling later than many as my children were 10 and 13 but I
think it was soon enough to make huge positive differences in their lives.
Perhaps there are people who come to unschooling and do get it easily and
quickly. For me, it was a difficult change but I never once thought it was
not possible. It has been worth every moment.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shannon
*Home Education Magazine was thinking of doing online classes a few years
ago
and I was asked if I would teach a class on unschooling (like people would
pay money to take an online class). I said I thought it wasn't the way to
learn about unschooling. Maybe I was wrong. I hate to think that. It
seems
people who need that course would think their kids would need courses, and
they
would want a refresher course later on why the first course didn't work.*
Isn't that what The Live and Learn Conference is about? That's what it
feels like to me. I've gone for two years now and come back all refreshed
and jazzed up. It's like taking a class on Unschooling, in a sense. Only,
this course is involves living it at the same time. <g>
Shan ~ mom to Connor (3-15-97), Carsten (4-27-99/5-19-00), Quinn (8-8-02),
Sloane (12-11-04)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ago
and I was asked if I would teach a class on unschooling (like people would
pay money to take an online class). I said I thought it wasn't the way to
learn about unschooling. Maybe I was wrong. I hate to think that. It
seems
people who need that course would think their kids would need courses, and
they
would want a refresher course later on why the first course didn't work.*
Isn't that what The Live and Learn Conference is about? That's what it
feels like to me. I've gone for two years now and come back all refreshed
and jazzed up. It's like taking a class on Unschooling, in a sense. Only,
this course is involves living it at the same time. <g>
Shan ~ mom to Connor (3-15-97), Carsten (4-27-99/5-19-00), Quinn (8-8-02),
Sloane (12-11-04)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], gailbrocop@a... wrote:
reference) is the commitment it takes to "show up" so that you stay
engaged with the ideas even when they are starting to cause you panic.
But I'm with you - it is a process of unfolding, not a just a point of
arrival.
When I started homeschooling when Brenna was 8,
it" for months at a time (but it was the educational philosophy of
unschooling, not this radical unschooling kind). I couldn't figure out
why it worked for awhile and then would stop working.
While it appeared to be an easy transition for
I had to let go of most
unwise or overboard. Can't underestimate the impact of competing messages.
I embraced the philosophy but I had to
stories. :)
transition to get to the good stuff, to feel the benefits.
If they feel they have blown it by not getting it all at once, then
they will not keep going.
I do think it would help if moms on this list could compile their
experiences of what the transition out of homeschooling looks/feels
like so that moms in the same situation won't just feel like they are
failures and therefore "aren't right for unschooling."
Julie B
> Unschooling is so much more an ongoing process and just not likepicking up
> a book or taking a course.I totally agree. One benefit to a course (just as another frame of
reference) is the commitment it takes to "show up" so that you stay
engaged with the ideas even when they are starting to cause you panic.
But I'm with you - it is a process of unfolding, not a just a point of
arrival.
When I started homeschooling when Brenna was 8,
> it was so easy for me.I went
> I bought books, I joined a homeschool group, we went on field trips,
> to curriculum fairs, we did school at home and I made portfolios.Piece of
> cake. It just wasn't the right piece of cake...>g<Exactly! I was the same way. I even read about unschooling and "tried
it" for months at a time (but it was the educational philosophy of
unschooling, not this radical unschooling kind). I couldn't figure out
why it worked for awhile and then would stop working.
>Again, same.
> Unschooling is woven into our lives now and seems so natural. I can't
> imagine our lives any other way.
While it appeared to be an easy transition for
> both my husband and children, it was grueling for me.This is what I am trying to communicate.
I had to let go of most
> if not all of my beliefs about parenting and learning before Icould even
> begin to make room for unschooling.And I had to do so around those who find this philsophy dangerous or
unwise or overboard. Can't underestimate the impact of competing messages.
I embraced the philosophy but I had to
> change me from the inside out and that took re-evaluation, massiveamounts of
> time reading and thinking, changes in my interactions with my familyand after
> a couple of years a realization I finally did "get it" and we areliving it.
> Learning to say yes was one of my biggest challenges.And one of the biggest blessings! I can never hear enough "yes"
stories. :)
> Perhaps there are people who come to unschooling and do get iteasily and
> quickly. For me, it was a difficult change but I never oncethought it was
> not possible. It has been worth every moment.This is just how I feel. I want women to stick with the process of
transition to get to the good stuff, to feel the benefits.
If they feel they have blown it by not getting it all at once, then
they will not keep going.
I do think it would help if moms on this list could compile their
experiences of what the transition out of homeschooling looks/feels
like so that moms in the same situation won't just feel like they are
failures and therefore "aren't right for unschooling."
Julie B
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 30, 2005, at 12:32 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
learning by living
It doesn't need to be discussed to get unschooling but it's sure
popular ;-) : Parenting. Which would encompass at least:
Saying Yes
Food
Bedtimes
Chores
Maybe we should have a separate list, say UnschoolingDiscussion-Topics.
And then
strictly limit the discussion to one topic for the month or week. That
would make the archives more useful.
Joyce
> So what are the four or more topics people need to discuss to getBreaking the mental block of school subject learning and getting to
> unschooling?
learning by living
It doesn't need to be discussed to get unschooling but it's sure
popular ;-) : Parenting. Which would encompass at least:
Saying Yes
Food
Bedtimes
Chores
Maybe we should have a separate list, say UnschoolingDiscussion-Topics.
And then
strictly limit the discussion to one topic for the month or week. That
would make the archives more useful.
Joyce
Pam Sorooshian
On May 30, 2005, at 9:26 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
My love for unschooling is partly my love for the swirling interrelated
connection-making ocean of ideas that we swim around in all the time.
Which seems odd since I'm one who "organizes" my thinking - I like
lists and bullet points and all that.
But I get my thrills from the zippy conversations of unschoolers - I
LOVE it that one never knows where a conversation will lead. Opening
each new email is a potential adventure.
(Which explains why I never change subject lines and it wouldn't bother
me at all if we didn't even HAVE subject lines. Everything is
connected. Subjects? We don't need no stinkin' subjects! <BEG>)
-pam
> And thenGood luck!
> strictly limit the discussion to one topic for the month or week. That
> would make the archives more useful.
My love for unschooling is partly my love for the swirling interrelated
connection-making ocean of ideas that we swim around in all the time.
Which seems odd since I'm one who "organizes" my thinking - I like
lists and bullet points and all that.
But I get my thrills from the zippy conversations of unschoolers - I
LOVE it that one never knows where a conversation will lead. Opening
each new email is a potential adventure.
(Which explains why I never change subject lines and it wouldn't bother
me at all if we didn't even HAVE subject lines. Everything is
connected. Subjects? We don't need no stinkin' subjects! <BEG>)
-pam
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<> So what are the four or more topics people need to discuss to get
Bedtime
Food
Electronic Gaming
Chores
Television/movies
Personal Hygiene
However I suspect that many folk first arriving are looking for reassurance
about:
Reading
Math
Science
History
Geography
Etc.
Maybe that is how it should get divided - two topics:
Reassurance and Challenge.
Maybe once a month we could hold a "Typical Days" day, and people could post
about a day from the past month that seems interesting or cool or ordinary.
I only find myself posting that kind of thing when someone specifically
asks, "What did you guys do say, yesterday?" on A/U.
I don't know - this is similar to the FAQ debate that comes up periodically.
I too respond to Pam's idea of "swirling" and "zippy" unpredictability in
this list.
My feeling is "if the list ain't broke, don't fix it".
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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> unschooling?>>>.Seems like the topics people are suggesting are variations on "The Big Six":
Bedtime
Food
Electronic Gaming
Chores
Television/movies
Personal Hygiene
However I suspect that many folk first arriving are looking for reassurance
about:
Reading
Math
Science
History
Geography
Etc.
Maybe that is how it should get divided - two topics:
Reassurance and Challenge.
Maybe once a month we could hold a "Typical Days" day, and people could post
about a day from the past month that seems interesting or cool or ordinary.
I only find myself posting that kind of thing when someone specifically
asks, "What did you guys do say, yesterday?" on A/U.
I don't know - this is similar to the FAQ debate that comes up periodically.
I too respond to Pam's idea of "swirling" and "zippy" unpredictability in
this list.
My feeling is "if the list ain't broke, don't fix it".
Robyn L. Coburn
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[email protected]
Oh, the line I forgot to add on my last post, if my dad had said YES to a
more joyful life with his child (me) 14 years ago, we would have had MANY days
and LOTS of joyful memories instead of just the last eight days of his life.
The sooner you say YES to your child, in ANY WAY, the more happy joyful
memories you will/can/do make with each other.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
more joyful life with his child (me) 14 years ago, we would have had MANY days
and LOTS of joyful memories instead of just the last eight days of his life.
The sooner you say YES to your child, in ANY WAY, the more happy joyful
memories you will/can/do make with each other.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**Okay. More specific.
Watch whichever movie comes along in your lives next. Then watch another
movie related to it in some way, like
same historical period
same physical setting (another movie about Thailand, or NYC, or South Africa)
same director
one of the actors is in the other movie...**
If several of us chose the same DVD released this week (I have The Aviator!), it would be fascinating to see how the different choices would spiral out into totally different and intriguing directions!
**Without even trying there will be similarities or differences (schoolterm:
"comparison/contrast") to the two you already saw. **
A few years ago, my son (8or9?) explained in detail to my husband the plot similarities between Atlantis and Titan A.E. My husband beamed, and then threw up his hands saying he had been trying to teach his older students to do this and couldn't do it. I say --Yoda says "there is no teach -- there is only DO."
**
It's kind of frustrating. If we were "running courses," there would be
starting times. "The next course begins June 6."**
I was thinking the same thing. We'd start with topic #1 in September (and make everyone bring sharpened pencils), and would chug forward thru the other topics without any circling back. But to do that we'd have to do that awful teacher thing of telling people their questions would have to await the proper time. Blech. "That will all be gone into at the proper time..."
Betsy
Watch whichever movie comes along in your lives next. Then watch another
movie related to it in some way, like
same historical period
same physical setting (another movie about Thailand, or NYC, or South Africa)
same director
one of the actors is in the other movie...**
If several of us chose the same DVD released this week (I have The Aviator!), it would be fascinating to see how the different choices would spiral out into totally different and intriguing directions!
**Without even trying there will be similarities or differences (schoolterm:
"comparison/contrast") to the two you already saw. **
A few years ago, my son (8or9?) explained in detail to my husband the plot similarities between Atlantis and Titan A.E. My husband beamed, and then threw up his hands saying he had been trying to teach his older students to do this and couldn't do it. I say --Yoda says "there is no teach -- there is only DO."
**
It's kind of frustrating. If we were "running courses," there would be
starting times. "The next course begins June 6."**
I was thinking the same thing. We'd start with topic #1 in September (and make everyone bring sharpened pencils), and would chug forward thru the other topics without any circling back. But to do that we'd have to do that awful teacher thing of telling people their questions would have to await the proper time. Blech. "That will all be gone into at the proper time..."
Betsy
Elizabeth Hill
**
What about...
1. Getting started
2. Strewing
3. Teens
4. Saying Yes**
I'm personally drawn to discussing the pre-teen age where the possibility is that a non-bookish child lags a school-timetabled child by quite a bit. (But is much happier!)
Betsy
What about...
1. Getting started
2. Strewing
3. Teens
4. Saying Yes**
I'm personally drawn to discussing the pre-teen age where the possibility is that a non-bookish child lags a school-timetabled child by quite a bit. (But is much happier!)
Betsy
Pam Sorooshian
And it doesn't have to be all things to all people.
There are other lists.
-pam
There are other lists.
-pam
On May 30, 2005, at 1:36 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
> My feeling is "if the list ain't broke, don't fix it".
Jordan
Ya Know, LLL has it down pretty well and maybe we could �borrow� the same
structure:
1. Benefits of Unschooling
2. Getting started and overcoming difficulties.
3. Living with it�or in other terms, �The Unschooling Family� (Breastfed
baby optional.)
4. Deschooling, and nutrition for an unschooling life�foodwise (letting go
of controls) and otherwise (more philosophical, deep issues).
It could work!
Tami, who first saw unschooling IRL as a result of what my children still
call �Why Watchy League�.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of
SandraDodd@...
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 1:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: When "saying yes" is offensive
In a message dated 5/29/2005 9:48:19 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
I thought that maybe having a set of four or more informal rotating topics
might be useful for this list.
====================
That could be fun to at least try for one rotation.
So what are the four or more topics people need to discuss to get
unschooling?
In LLL, weaning/solids (for example) comes around once a month, and not all
the moms are needing it every time, but some people only go to four
meetings
and have to do with what they can from memory and books if they don't want
to
go back.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscrib
e>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.2.0 - Release Date: 5/27/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
structure:
1. Benefits of Unschooling
2. Getting started and overcoming difficulties.
3. Living with it�or in other terms, �The Unschooling Family� (Breastfed
baby optional.)
4. Deschooling, and nutrition for an unschooling life�foodwise (letting go
of controls) and otherwise (more philosophical, deep issues).
It could work!
Tami, who first saw unschooling IRL as a result of what my children still
call �Why Watchy League�.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of
SandraDodd@...
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 1:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: When "saying yes" is offensive
In a message dated 5/29/2005 9:48:19 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
I thought that maybe having a set of four or more informal rotating topics
might be useful for this list.
====================
That could be fun to at least try for one rotation.
So what are the four or more topics people need to discuss to get
unschooling?
In LLL, weaning/solids (for example) comes around once a month, and not all
the moms are needing it every time, but some people only go to four
meetings
and have to do with what they can from memory and books if they don't want
to
go back.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscrib
e>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.2.0 - Release Date: 5/27/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/30/2005 8:47:01 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
julie@... writes:
And I had to do so around those who find this philsophy dangerous or
unwise or overboard. Can't underestimate the impact of competing messages.
That's probably the big thing.
-=-I do think it would help if moms on this list could compile their
experiences of what the transition out of homeschooling looks/feels
like so that moms in the same situation won't just feel like they are
failures and therefore "aren't right for unschooling."-=-
I have a little collection, and other things saved to put there. Just
hadn't linked it up yet because it seemed incomplete.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
And I had to do so around those who find this philsophy dangerous or
unwise or overboard. Can't underestimate the impact of competing messages.
That's probably the big thing.
-=-I do think it would help if moms on this list could compile their
experiences of what the transition out of homeschooling looks/feels
like so that moms in the same situation won't just feel like they are
failures and therefore "aren't right for unschooling."-=-
I have a little collection, and other things saved to put there. Just
hadn't linked it up yet because it seemed incomplete.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
<julie@b...> wrote:
(including the part about b.f., which I certainly fumbled my way
through for the first couple years).
I had some serious cognitive dissonance going on yesterday after
reading the story of the person who let her child play in the tub with
a raw egg. First I thought about how I couldn't possibly do that
because of the logistics of the situation. I have 3 kids under 5 yrs
old. I can't just run upstairs to the tub to let one of them explore
right at the moment they want to! Okay, there's just some unschooling
stuff that I can't do right now and I'm mad at even hearing about it
because I don't want to think about doing things that take more work
than I already have. We can raise perfectly happy kids who probably
won't be in therapy complaining about how when they were 2 or 4, they
didn't get to play with eggs in the tub.
This morning, I'd progressed to thinking well, I don't have to run
upstairs _every_ time they look at an egg. I can try to say yes more,
that's the point. If the baby is asleep, the kids could stand on
chairs and play with eggs in the sink. Dh might be horrified by the
idea, so I'll do it while he's at work and clean up and go get more
eggs before he comes home so that he sees happy kids, not a mess and
an eggless house! (He's coming around, agreed to go to the conference,
etc., but he's got a loooong way to go.)
Then I remembered how I had the same reaction to the idea of letting
go of bedtime.
Only it took me three months to work through THAT to the point where I
was looking for ways to make things work instead of thinking they
could not.
I'm able to write this message now because my 4.5 yr old turned off
the monitor when he got tired, curled up on the couch and went to
sleep chatting to me about our very nice day together.
I'll report back about what happens with eggs...and I bet it will be
in less than 3 months!
--aj
<julie@b...> wrote:
> I do think it would help if moms on this list could compile theirJulie, I've been nodding in agreement at everything you've written
> experiences of what the transition out of homeschooling looks/feels
> like so that moms in the same situation won't just feel like they are
> failures and therefore "aren't right for unschooling."
(including the part about b.f., which I certainly fumbled my way
through for the first couple years).
I had some serious cognitive dissonance going on yesterday after
reading the story of the person who let her child play in the tub with
a raw egg. First I thought about how I couldn't possibly do that
because of the logistics of the situation. I have 3 kids under 5 yrs
old. I can't just run upstairs to the tub to let one of them explore
right at the moment they want to! Okay, there's just some unschooling
stuff that I can't do right now and I'm mad at even hearing about it
because I don't want to think about doing things that take more work
than I already have. We can raise perfectly happy kids who probably
won't be in therapy complaining about how when they were 2 or 4, they
didn't get to play with eggs in the tub.
This morning, I'd progressed to thinking well, I don't have to run
upstairs _every_ time they look at an egg. I can try to say yes more,
that's the point. If the baby is asleep, the kids could stand on
chairs and play with eggs in the sink. Dh might be horrified by the
idea, so I'll do it while he's at work and clean up and go get more
eggs before he comes home so that he sees happy kids, not a mess and
an eggless house! (He's coming around, agreed to go to the conference,
etc., but he's got a loooong way to go.)
Then I remembered how I had the same reaction to the idea of letting
go of bedtime.
Only it took me three months to work through THAT to the point where I
was looking for ways to make things work instead of thinking they
could not.
I'm able to write this message now because my 4.5 yr old turned off
the monitor when he got tired, curled up on the couch and went to
sleep chatting to me about our very nice day together.
I'll report back about what happens with eggs...and I bet it will be
in less than 3 months!
--aj
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
is too philosophical. Shallow discussion, people, please!
I like the discussions about strewing here, but I'd also like to see
some of the more practical lists of things to strew on the
Unschooling Basics list. It's gotten quiet lately and I know in the
past there have been good discussions started from some of the list
of "things that might appeal to a kid who...". I still have a
printout of a list of good things for someone who needs lots of
tactile stimulation.
It's such a change to actively look for opportunities to let a child
play with water instead of trying different locks for the bathroom
door, for example, and that's great for people to hear when they are
just starting out. More of the positive "go and do this" in addition
to trying to stop all the schoolish stuff...
--aj
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> And it doesn't have to be all things to all people.I'm still laughing at the idea of complaining that a DISCUSSION list
>
> There are other lists.
is too philosophical. Shallow discussion, people, please!
I like the discussions about strewing here, but I'd also like to see
some of the more practical lists of things to strew on the
Unschooling Basics list. It's gotten quiet lately and I know in the
past there have been good discussions started from some of the list
of "things that might appeal to a kid who...". I still have a
printout of a list of good things for someone who needs lots of
tactile stimulation.
It's such a change to actively look for opportunities to let a child
play with water instead of trying different locks for the bathroom
door, for example, and that's great for people to hear when they are
just starting out. More of the positive "go and do this" in addition
to trying to stop all the schoolish stuff...
--aj
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/30/2005 8:59:52 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
mamaaj2000@... writes:
I'll report back about what happens with eggs...and I bet it will be
in less than 3 months!
But it doesn't need to have anything to do with eggs. It might be lighting
a match or touching a bug or freezing milk that they want to do that you
could help them out with.
And the bedtime business is misunderstood more often than not, I think.
There's a lot of yes to be said with that many kids, but "stay up as late as you
want" isn't the same as "there's no real reason to enforce arbitrary
bedtimes and problems can come of it."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000@... writes:
I'll report back about what happens with eggs...and I bet it will be
in less than 3 months!
But it doesn't need to have anything to do with eggs. It might be lighting
a match or touching a bug or freezing milk that they want to do that you
could help them out with.
And the bedtime business is misunderstood more often than not, I think.
There's a lot of yes to be said with that many kids, but "stay up as late as you
want" isn't the same as "there's no real reason to enforce arbitrary
bedtimes and problems can come of it."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/30/2005 9:14:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
mamaaj2000@... writes:
I like the discussions about strewing here, but I'd also like to see
some of the more practical lists of things to strew on the
Unschooling Basics list.
---------------------
These have ideas, one way or another:
_http://sandradodd.com/checklists_ (http://sandradodd.com/checklists)
_http://sandradodd.com/typical_ (http://sandradodd.com/typical)
_http://sandradodd.com/strewing_ (http://sandradodd.com/strewing)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000@... writes:
I like the discussions about strewing here, but I'd also like to see
some of the more practical lists of things to strew on the
Unschooling Basics list.
---------------------
These have ideas, one way or another:
_http://sandradodd.com/checklists_ (http://sandradodd.com/checklists)
_http://sandradodd.com/typical_ (http://sandradodd.com/typical)
_http://sandradodd.com/strewing_ (http://sandradodd.com/strewing)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
SandraDodd@... wrote:
the freezer by filling a cup (plastic because of expansion--the kids got
this one really quickly) with water and submerging any number of small
toys. They've had a blast finding the frozen creature/ toy just like in
the movies, but they've also discovered all kinds of really cool things
from the way water expands when it freezes and breaks the cup, to the
way it freezes in different places first. They've had fun taking it out
in all different stages, from just the membrane on top to an ice cup
because the sides and bottom are frozen but not the center, on and on.
It's also amazing how much fun a plain ice popsicle is when they've made
it themselves. *g* I'm casually looking for those rubbermaid popsicle
makers; I'll step up the search after the move. Those'll be hours of fun
this summer for sure.
I guess what I want to get at here is that while I can totally
understand the desire for a list of cool things to do and I can see how
great such lists are to help break out of a rut, the best, most fun,
most interesting learning that goes on in my home is the spontaneous
kind rather than the list following kind.
The most glorious part about finding a way to say "yes" is that it
nurtures and encourages *each* child's spontaneous learning rather than
overlaying them with other children's (or adult's) learning activities,
however cool, however well-intentioned.
The danger I see with generating such lists and putting them somewhere
easily accessible, rather than following the natural flow of ideas that
come across email discussion, is that these lists can be twisted into
another form of curriculum, an unschooling list of "what your child
needs to know," that could prevent parents from really stretching and
growing into seeing and following the ideas that spring up naturally in
their own homes. Encouraging a parent to say "yes," to participate in,
nurture and follow her child's journeys will, in my opinion, get that
family more quickly to an Unschooling place than any posted activity
list ever could.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (7), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
>But it doesn't need to have anything to do with eggs. It might be lightingThe big thing here the past month or so has been making "ice ages" in
>a match or touching a bug or freezing milk that they want to do that you
>could help them out with.
>
>
the freezer by filling a cup (plastic because of expansion--the kids got
this one really quickly) with water and submerging any number of small
toys. They've had a blast finding the frozen creature/ toy just like in
the movies, but they've also discovered all kinds of really cool things
from the way water expands when it freezes and breaks the cup, to the
way it freezes in different places first. They've had fun taking it out
in all different stages, from just the membrane on top to an ice cup
because the sides and bottom are frozen but not the center, on and on.
It's also amazing how much fun a plain ice popsicle is when they've made
it themselves. *g* I'm casually looking for those rubbermaid popsicle
makers; I'll step up the search after the move. Those'll be hours of fun
this summer for sure.
I guess what I want to get at here is that while I can totally
understand the desire for a list of cool things to do and I can see how
great such lists are to help break out of a rut, the best, most fun,
most interesting learning that goes on in my home is the spontaneous
kind rather than the list following kind.
The most glorious part about finding a way to say "yes" is that it
nurtures and encourages *each* child's spontaneous learning rather than
overlaying them with other children's (or adult's) learning activities,
however cool, however well-intentioned.
The danger I see with generating such lists and putting them somewhere
easily accessible, rather than following the natural flow of ideas that
come across email discussion, is that these lists can be twisted into
another form of curriculum, an unschooling list of "what your child
needs to know," that could prevent parents from really stretching and
growing into seeing and following the ideas that spring up naturally in
their own homes. Encouraging a parent to say "yes," to participate in,
nurture and follow her child's journeys will, in my opinion, get that
family more quickly to an Unschooling place than any posted activity
list ever could.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (7), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha