Intro and food concerns
beanmommy2
Hello, my name is Jenny and this is my first post to this group. I
have two girls, ages four and two, and have been reading about
unschooling for about three years now. A couple of you may know me
from one of the Christian lists.
We have always been fairly easy-going about food, but a couple
months ago I really tried to let them make almost all food choices
themselves. I really want my girls to not have weird food hang-ups
and stuff. I don't want them to eat mindlessly wihout being hungry,
or have to "clean their plates." I don't want them to think of
sweets as a "reward" or fruit as a "requirement" that needs to be
choked down, ya know, that kind of thing.
When I was a kid, I was punished by "no desserts for a week." One
time when I was about seven my parents hosted some sort of party and
I ate so much I threw up. When I was in college, a friend actually
sat down with me and said, "You know, when someone offers you
cookies, they don't mean, Eat the whole bag."
Anyway! I'm wondering if, in my quest for them making choices, I'm
being too passive. The concerns I have are mostly with my four year
old, although my two year does similar things to a lesser extent.
She/they seem to want to eat all day long! For the four year old,
breakfast might be two bowls of oatmeal, or maybe something like
rice chex, and/or a couple eggs. They both often help themselves
to "stick cheese" sometimes several times a day. They also both like
to have "snack bowls" of dry cereal throughout the day, usually
Froot Loops or maybe Chex or Cheerios.
My oldest does not like fruit much; she might eat some once or twice
a week. If I serve peas, corn, or potatoes at dinner, she'll usually
have some.
I guess now that I'm typing it doesn't sound too bad. My main
concerns are that they are just eating too much or having "bad
habits." They like to eat snack bowls while they watch TV or when I
read to them, or even during short car rides, isn't that something
pediatricians say not to allow? They eat *several* times a day;
maybe like eight, but I couldn't even know. It seems like all day I
hear "I'm hungry" or "I want a snack" or see them reaching for more
cheese. I'm just afraid that kind of Eating Continually will lead to
overeating.
My other concern is them eating things like Froot Loops and candy.
The obvious answer would be, Don't buy those things ... but I don't
want any one food, really, to be "forbidden" or something "we don't
keep in our house," so when they're in the store with me and ask for
those chewy, sugary fruit snacks, or whatever, I let them get it.
I've talked with my four year old about things like listening to
your tummy, when it says it's empty or filled up. We've also talked
about eating a variety of different foods, which I guess she does to
some extent. I have noticed that she *will* announce, "I'm done"
herself and leave even things like ice cream or cake and walk away
from them. On one hand, I'm glad *she* is the one making that
decision, instead of me telling her when she's had enough. But I'm
wondering if she's eating too much before she stops.
So I can't tell, even as I'm writing this, if I'm "worrying about
nothing" or if I need to guide her a little more in her choices, or
something else.
Thanks
Jenny
have two girls, ages four and two, and have been reading about
unschooling for about three years now. A couple of you may know me
from one of the Christian lists.
We have always been fairly easy-going about food, but a couple
months ago I really tried to let them make almost all food choices
themselves. I really want my girls to not have weird food hang-ups
and stuff. I don't want them to eat mindlessly wihout being hungry,
or have to "clean their plates." I don't want them to think of
sweets as a "reward" or fruit as a "requirement" that needs to be
choked down, ya know, that kind of thing.
When I was a kid, I was punished by "no desserts for a week." One
time when I was about seven my parents hosted some sort of party and
I ate so much I threw up. When I was in college, a friend actually
sat down with me and said, "You know, when someone offers you
cookies, they don't mean, Eat the whole bag."
Anyway! I'm wondering if, in my quest for them making choices, I'm
being too passive. The concerns I have are mostly with my four year
old, although my two year does similar things to a lesser extent.
She/they seem to want to eat all day long! For the four year old,
breakfast might be two bowls of oatmeal, or maybe something like
rice chex, and/or a couple eggs. They both often help themselves
to "stick cheese" sometimes several times a day. They also both like
to have "snack bowls" of dry cereal throughout the day, usually
Froot Loops or maybe Chex or Cheerios.
My oldest does not like fruit much; she might eat some once or twice
a week. If I serve peas, corn, or potatoes at dinner, she'll usually
have some.
I guess now that I'm typing it doesn't sound too bad. My main
concerns are that they are just eating too much or having "bad
habits." They like to eat snack bowls while they watch TV or when I
read to them, or even during short car rides, isn't that something
pediatricians say not to allow? They eat *several* times a day;
maybe like eight, but I couldn't even know. It seems like all day I
hear "I'm hungry" or "I want a snack" or see them reaching for more
cheese. I'm just afraid that kind of Eating Continually will lead to
overeating.
My other concern is them eating things like Froot Loops and candy.
The obvious answer would be, Don't buy those things ... but I don't
want any one food, really, to be "forbidden" or something "we don't
keep in our house," so when they're in the store with me and ask for
those chewy, sugary fruit snacks, or whatever, I let them get it.
I've talked with my four year old about things like listening to
your tummy, when it says it's empty or filled up. We've also talked
about eating a variety of different foods, which I guess she does to
some extent. I have noticed that she *will* announce, "I'm done"
herself and leave even things like ice cream or cake and walk away
from them. On one hand, I'm glad *she* is the one making that
decision, instead of me telling her when she's had enough. But I'm
wondering if she's eating too much before she stops.
So I can't tell, even as I'm writing this, if I'm "worrying about
nothing" or if I need to guide her a little more in her choices, or
something else.
Thanks
Jenny
soggyboysmom
One thing is that we're trained to "3 square meals" which is totally
wrong for kids, and most adults too. If you check with any reputable
dietician, they're likely to tell people should eat 5 or 6 times per
day in smaller quantities (like crackers and cheese, a piece of
fruit, yogurt, etc - not 6 "meals"). My 7 yr old DS (he'll be 7 in
exactly one week) will eat 6 to 8 "times" on average in a day.
Keeping a consistent blood sugar level is the thing - the 3 big
square meals thing causes big highs and lows and that's not a good
thing. Regular input of proteins, complex carbs, etc keeps things
way more level and healthy. There's no way you can know what is "too
much" for a growing child. My DS can (and did last night) eat 7
pancakes at a sitting (I ate 3 and was comfortable). He can eat an
entire personal-size watermelon or an average sized canteloupe over
the course of a day (we cut it up and make it easily accessible). He
also tends to be on a 36 hr eating schedule - sometimes he eats the
bulk of his intake between rising and about 1 pm, other times it's
between noon and 5, and other times it's late afternoon into
evening. By not forcing his natural rhythms to match "breakfast
time, lunchtime, dinnertime", he eats as he gets hungry, not simply
because the clock says so. I'm not going to stop him - in some
cases, I might double check with him about what it is he wants. We
have a list of protein foods and another of potassium foods on our
kitchen chalkboard because DS often chooses based on whether he
feels a need for protein or something else. His favorite thing is to
pick something that combines protein, complex carbs, and potassium
(he latched onto that one in a discussion of potassium and sodium
and blood pressure because DH is hyprertensive). PBJ on whole grain
bread with strawberry jam fits that, for example. Or he'll have
cheese and crackers and fruit juice.
Anecdotal evidence: he fell in love with a particular kind of snack
cake last fall. We'd pick up a box at the grocery when we shopped.
One week, they were on sale 5 boxes for $5 - so we got 5 boxes. He
ate a bunch from the first box, some from the second box, I used
most of the 5th box for sack lunches for work. When they were gone,
we were in that aisle at the market, I asked if he wanted to grab
more. He said "No. Where's the cottage cheese at?" Another time, we
were in the dairy aisle and I asked him if we should get ice cream,
he said "No, we've still got some in the freezer". He's not needy
about food, and he understands the trade offs involved in budgeting
as well - x and y both cost $3, we can only afford $3 this week.
Which should we get? And, over time, casual discussions as we shop
over things like sugar, sodium, price, nutrients, etc he's
developing his own personal choices - for instance, he just will not
eat 'pancake syrup' which is just dyed corn syrup, it's gotta be
actual maple from an actual tree type syrup.
The thing about snacks and car rides, I think (never heard that one
personally) is more about the risks of choking than about the actual
food intake, I would guess.
--Deb
wrong for kids, and most adults too. If you check with any reputable
dietician, they're likely to tell people should eat 5 or 6 times per
day in smaller quantities (like crackers and cheese, a piece of
fruit, yogurt, etc - not 6 "meals"). My 7 yr old DS (he'll be 7 in
exactly one week) will eat 6 to 8 "times" on average in a day.
Keeping a consistent blood sugar level is the thing - the 3 big
square meals thing causes big highs and lows and that's not a good
thing. Regular input of proteins, complex carbs, etc keeps things
way more level and healthy. There's no way you can know what is "too
much" for a growing child. My DS can (and did last night) eat 7
pancakes at a sitting (I ate 3 and was comfortable). He can eat an
entire personal-size watermelon or an average sized canteloupe over
the course of a day (we cut it up and make it easily accessible). He
also tends to be on a 36 hr eating schedule - sometimes he eats the
bulk of his intake between rising and about 1 pm, other times it's
between noon and 5, and other times it's late afternoon into
evening. By not forcing his natural rhythms to match "breakfast
time, lunchtime, dinnertime", he eats as he gets hungry, not simply
because the clock says so. I'm not going to stop him - in some
cases, I might double check with him about what it is he wants. We
have a list of protein foods and another of potassium foods on our
kitchen chalkboard because DS often chooses based on whether he
feels a need for protein or something else. His favorite thing is to
pick something that combines protein, complex carbs, and potassium
(he latched onto that one in a discussion of potassium and sodium
and blood pressure because DH is hyprertensive). PBJ on whole grain
bread with strawberry jam fits that, for example. Or he'll have
cheese and crackers and fruit juice.
Anecdotal evidence: he fell in love with a particular kind of snack
cake last fall. We'd pick up a box at the grocery when we shopped.
One week, they were on sale 5 boxes for $5 - so we got 5 boxes. He
ate a bunch from the first box, some from the second box, I used
most of the 5th box for sack lunches for work. When they were gone,
we were in that aisle at the market, I asked if he wanted to grab
more. He said "No. Where's the cottage cheese at?" Another time, we
were in the dairy aisle and I asked him if we should get ice cream,
he said "No, we've still got some in the freezer". He's not needy
about food, and he understands the trade offs involved in budgeting
as well - x and y both cost $3, we can only afford $3 this week.
Which should we get? And, over time, casual discussions as we shop
over things like sugar, sodium, price, nutrients, etc he's
developing his own personal choices - for instance, he just will not
eat 'pancake syrup' which is just dyed corn syrup, it's gotta be
actual maple from an actual tree type syrup.
The thing about snacks and car rides, I think (never heard that one
personally) is more about the risks of choking than about the actual
food intake, I would guess.
--Deb
Pam Sorooshian
They are grazing.
That is SO natural and healthy!!
Good job!!
The only thing I'd change would be to have some more variety of foods
cut up into small bits and sitting ready and available.
Cut up little bits of fruit and put them on toothpicks. Or little bits
of leftover meat. Or whatever.
-pam
That is SO natural and healthy!!
Good job!!
The only thing I'd change would be to have some more variety of foods
cut up into small bits and sitting ready and available.
Cut up little bits of fruit and put them on toothpicks. Or little bits
of leftover meat. Or whatever.
-pam
On May 26, 2005, at 5:54 AM, beanmommy2 wrote:
> I'm just afraid that kind of Eating Continually will lead to
> overeating.
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
perfectly kid sized, wrapped in fun-to-play-with red wax. Also, you
can make slices of whatever cheeses they like (cheddar, swiss,
american, etc) and use mini-cookie cutters to make shapes then store
the shape-cheese in small zip lock bags, 4 or 6 shapes per bag so it
is "single serving size". Way cheaper and fresher and bigger variety
of shapes and types than the store bought shape cheese. String
cheese (aka "stick cheese" in our house) was a big favorite until DS
was about 3 or 4, then his range of cheeses grew and today it
includes things like parmesan, romano, provolone, ricotta, feta, and
raclette (and Velveeta for the 'perfect' grilled cheese) plus the
usual cheddars and Monterey Jack and all.
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
>bits
> Cut up little bits of fruit and put them on toothpicks. Or little
> of leftover meat. Or whatever.Baby Bel cheeses are a current favorite at our house - mild flavor,
>
> -pam
perfectly kid sized, wrapped in fun-to-play-with red wax. Also, you
can make slices of whatever cheeses they like (cheddar, swiss,
american, etc) and use mini-cookie cutters to make shapes then store
the shape-cheese in small zip lock bags, 4 or 6 shapes per bag so it
is "single serving size". Way cheaper and fresher and bigger variety
of shapes and types than the store bought shape cheese. String
cheese (aka "stick cheese" in our house) was a big favorite until DS
was about 3 or 4, then his range of cheeses grew and today it
includes things like parmesan, romano, provolone, ricotta, feta, and
raclette (and Velveeta for the 'perfect' grilled cheese) plus the
usual cheddars and Monterey Jack and all.
[email protected]
When our kids were little, sometimes I'd make sandwiches, cut the middles
out with cookie cutters, and while they ate the "ooh, ah!" fun ones, Keith and I
ate "the negatives." Works with egg salad, tuna, peanut butter or grilled
cheese. Doesn't work as well with lunchmeat or lettuce in there.
But other than fun suggestions, I think limiting and expressing (however
non-verbally) worry and disapproval is likely to cause MORE eating, not less (if
not now, years from now).
_http://sandradodd.com/food_ (http://sandradodd.com/food)
Lots of people's good kids-and-food stories are there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
out with cookie cutters, and while they ate the "ooh, ah!" fun ones, Keith and I
ate "the negatives." Works with egg salad, tuna, peanut butter or grilled
cheese. Doesn't work as well with lunchmeat or lettuce in there.
But other than fun suggestions, I think limiting and expressing (however
non-verbally) worry and disapproval is likely to cause MORE eating, not less (if
not now, years from now).
_http://sandradodd.com/food_ (http://sandradodd.com/food)
Lots of people's good kids-and-food stories are there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
tough but lunchmeats and cheeses can be cut to shape as well. We've
used a cut'n'seal thing many times too -it removes crusts and crimps
the bread so it forms a sealed pocket with the tuna or PBJ or whatever
inside. Also tortilla rollups cut into hors d'ouevre sizes work well
too - cream cheese, ham, and dill pickle spear roll ups are a favorite
at our house and at family gatherings. For Christmas, I used plain,
tomato/basil, and spinach tortillas so I had "festive holiday colors"
too.
> Doesn't work as well with lunchmeat or lettuce in there.Yeah - lettuce, tomato, other "slidy" things on top of things would be
>
>
> Sandra
>
tough but lunchmeats and cheeses can be cut to shape as well. We've
used a cut'n'seal thing many times too -it removes crusts and crimps
the bread so it forms a sealed pocket with the tuna or PBJ or whatever
inside. Also tortilla rollups cut into hors d'ouevre sizes work well
too - cream cheese, ham, and dill pickle spear roll ups are a favorite
at our house and at family gatherings. For Christmas, I used plain,
tomato/basil, and spinach tortillas so I had "festive holiday colors"
too.
Robyn Coburn
<<<< They like to eat snack bowls while they watch TV or when I
read to them, or even during short car rides, isn't that something
pediatricians say not to allow? >>>>>
I think that pediatricians in general are more likely to offer strategies
that support traditional coercive parenting with ideas about the worst case
scenario in mind (the choking reference). In traditional parenting the focus
is on increasing and maintaining controls, which pretty much means making
rules that exclude more and more scenarios.
<<< They eat *several* times a day;
maybe like eight, but I couldn't even know. It seems like all day I
hear "I'm hungry" or "I want a snack" or see them reaching for more
cheese. I'm just afraid that kind of Eating Continually will lead to
overeating. >>>>
See the Gessell Institute books on child development for a good explanation
of different body types - ectomorph etc - and the eating styles that go with
them. Ignore the "help them at school" related stuff.
I seem to remember Jayn being a consumer of greater apparent volume when she
was younger at different times. Generally it would seem to be preparation
for a growth spurt either physical or cognitive. Recently she couldn't get
enough pasta or mashed potatoes. Suddenly her vocabulary and the
sophistication of her manner and way of speaking matured, as did her
willingness for (insistence on!) separation from me.
<<<< I've talked with my four year old about things like listening to
your tummy, when it says it's empty or filled up.>>>>
I've never had that conversation with Jayn. It would be like saying "don't
forget to breathe" to her - unnecessary and likely to have her wonder if she
was "breathing wrongly". But we have never had any food restrictions.
<<<<< So I can't tell, even as I'm writing this, if I'm "worrying about
nothing" or if I need to guide her a little more in her choices, or
something else.>>>>>
Ok I will pick up the gauntlet. You *are* worrying about *nothing*. If you
start trying to guide her choices, you will cause her to start doubting
herself, a much worse scenario than anything you have described in your
delightful sounding life.
Robyn L. Coburn
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read to them, or even during short car rides, isn't that something
pediatricians say not to allow? >>>>>
I think that pediatricians in general are more likely to offer strategies
that support traditional coercive parenting with ideas about the worst case
scenario in mind (the choking reference). In traditional parenting the focus
is on increasing and maintaining controls, which pretty much means making
rules that exclude more and more scenarios.
<<< They eat *several* times a day;
maybe like eight, but I couldn't even know. It seems like all day I
hear "I'm hungry" or "I want a snack" or see them reaching for more
cheese. I'm just afraid that kind of Eating Continually will lead to
overeating. >>>>
See the Gessell Institute books on child development for a good explanation
of different body types - ectomorph etc - and the eating styles that go with
them. Ignore the "help them at school" related stuff.
I seem to remember Jayn being a consumer of greater apparent volume when she
was younger at different times. Generally it would seem to be preparation
for a growth spurt either physical or cognitive. Recently she couldn't get
enough pasta or mashed potatoes. Suddenly her vocabulary and the
sophistication of her manner and way of speaking matured, as did her
willingness for (insistence on!) separation from me.
<<<< I've talked with my four year old about things like listening to
your tummy, when it says it's empty or filled up.>>>>
I've never had that conversation with Jayn. It would be like saying "don't
forget to breathe" to her - unnecessary and likely to have her wonder if she
was "breathing wrongly". But we have never had any food restrictions.
<<<<< So I can't tell, even as I'm writing this, if I'm "worrying about
nothing" or if I need to guide her a little more in her choices, or
something else.>>>>>
Ok I will pick up the gauntlet. You *are* worrying about *nothing*. If you
start trying to guide her choices, you will cause her to start doubting
herself, a much worse scenario than anything you have described in your
delightful sounding life.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Pam Sorooshian
> <<<< They like to eat snack bowls while they watch TV or when IWhen my kids were little, they never went anywhere without their
> read to them, or even during short car rides, isn't that something
> pediatricians say not to allow? >>>>>
little sandwich baggies full of Cheerios <G>.I think that's just smart
and supportive and sensible.
I'm going to go way out on a limb, though, and say to the mom who
started this - beware of finding things to worry about - there are
people who want to fuss over their kids just because it makes them feel
good as a parent - like by "worrying" about something, they're better
parents. But they don't do their kids any favors that way.
-pam
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<I've never had that conversation with Jayn. It would be like saying
"don't forget to breathe" to her - unnecessary and likely to have her wonder
if she was "breathing wrongly". But we have never had any food
restrictions.>>>>>
Replying to myself...
I realized that I *have* suggested to Jayn to take a deep breath sometimes
when she is getting distressed and breathing fast and shallow. I was
referring to continual ordinary "unconscious-of-it" breathing when I used
that as a parallel natural process to eating. Maybe someone can think of a
better one.
Robyn L. Coburn
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"don't forget to breathe" to her - unnecessary and likely to have her wonder
if she was "breathing wrongly". But we have never had any food
restrictions.>>>>>
Replying to myself...
I realized that I *have* suggested to Jayn to take a deep breath sometimes
when she is getting distressed and breathing fast and shallow. I was
referring to continual ordinary "unconscious-of-it" breathing when I used
that as a parallel natural process to eating. Maybe someone can think of a
better one.
Robyn L. Coburn
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arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], "beanmommy2"
<beanmommy2@y...> wrote:
==I have noticed that she *will* announce, "I'm done"
you so clearly answer your own worry before you even state it.
She stops. Cake, ice cream, the typical "kid magnet" foods, and she
walks away.
If she's not walking away when she's full, then why else would she be
walking away when there's still some left?
You have nothing to worry about. <G>
Peace,
Amy
<beanmommy2@y...> wrote:
==I have noticed that she *will* announce, "I'm done"
> herself and leave even things like ice cream or cake and walk awayI thought I'd let you look at these three sentences together, because
> from them. On one hand, I'm glad *she* is the one making that
> decision, instead of me telling her when she's had enough. But I'm
> wondering if she's eating too much before she stops.==
you so clearly answer your own worry before you even state it.
She stops. Cake, ice cream, the typical "kid magnet" foods, and she
walks away.
If she's not walking away when she's full, then why else would she be
walking away when there's still some left?
You have nothing to worry about. <G>
Peace,
Amy