what is magic about 18?
[email protected]
First, I was wrong about the other teen I was writing about. He's still 17
for a few weeks and the reason he can't get his wisdom teeth out right away
is because he's in a Shakespeare production. Sorry I missed the "nearly 18,"
but it only makes the rest of what I wrote MORE true. He's not even 18.
Someone else wrote:
I was expected to support myself at 18 (with much less
guidance than he will receive from me), and his 18th
birthday is the limits of the total support I can
offer him as I have not yet earned great amounts of
money, although I will continue to be able to offer
him partial support beyond 18.
==============
I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I'm trying to lay out the parts of these
ideas for examination.
-=-I was expected to support myself at 18-=-
Why?
Tradition?
High school is over?
Social security benefits ended?
If we shun "tradition," why should we keep some arbitrary parts?
Most people are "expected to" go to school from the time they're five or six
(give or take a year). If we lay that expectation by, what then does "18"
mean in the absence of the assembly line?
If it's about social security and aid to the parent of a dependent child,
that's a real and non-arbitrary reason. <g>
-=-his 18th birthday is the limits of the total support I can offer him . . .
although I will continue to be able to offer him . . .-=-
The choice of "can" and "be able to" means you don't see it as a choice.
You chose your words, but you're not choosing your actions?
_http://sandradodd.com/unschool/haveto_
(http://sandradodd.com/unschool/haveto)
If you decide not to support him after he's 18, be clear inside yourself,
and with him, that it's a choice, not a "have to" or "able to" or whatever.
When our kids were little and we instituted a weekly allowance, we said
"until you're 18," thinking that was in the hypothetical forever. When Kirby
turned 18, I felt bad about his allowance ending, because he used to keep it on
the calendar and only cash it out for out of state trips. But he was fine
with it. It was kind of a point of pride with him, but he had a job at the
time and really wasn't hurting for money.
Outside of social security, insurance, voting rights and tradition, 18 is
arbitrary. <g>
If ALL six year olds are ready to leave their moms and go to school, then
ALL 18 year olds are ready to start supporting themselves as adults (at least
partially).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
for a few weeks and the reason he can't get his wisdom teeth out right away
is because he's in a Shakespeare production. Sorry I missed the "nearly 18,"
but it only makes the rest of what I wrote MORE true. He's not even 18.
Someone else wrote:
I was expected to support myself at 18 (with much less
guidance than he will receive from me), and his 18th
birthday is the limits of the total support I can
offer him as I have not yet earned great amounts of
money, although I will continue to be able to offer
him partial support beyond 18.
==============
I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I'm trying to lay out the parts of these
ideas for examination.
-=-I was expected to support myself at 18-=-
Why?
Tradition?
High school is over?
Social security benefits ended?
If we shun "tradition," why should we keep some arbitrary parts?
Most people are "expected to" go to school from the time they're five or six
(give or take a year). If we lay that expectation by, what then does "18"
mean in the absence of the assembly line?
If it's about social security and aid to the parent of a dependent child,
that's a real and non-arbitrary reason. <g>
-=-his 18th birthday is the limits of the total support I can offer him . . .
although I will continue to be able to offer him . . .-=-
The choice of "can" and "be able to" means you don't see it as a choice.
You chose your words, but you're not choosing your actions?
_http://sandradodd.com/unschool/haveto_
(http://sandradodd.com/unschool/haveto)
If you decide not to support him after he's 18, be clear inside yourself,
and with him, that it's a choice, not a "have to" or "able to" or whatever.
When our kids were little and we instituted a weekly allowance, we said
"until you're 18," thinking that was in the hypothetical forever. When Kirby
turned 18, I felt bad about his allowance ending, because he used to keep it on
the calendar and only cash it out for out of state trips. But he was fine
with it. It was kind of a point of pride with him, but he had a job at the
time and really wasn't hurting for money.
Outside of social security, insurance, voting rights and tradition, 18 is
arbitrary. <g>
If ALL six year olds are ready to leave their moms and go to school, then
ALL 18 year olds are ready to start supporting themselves as adults (at least
partially).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**
If we shun "tradition," why should we keep some arbitrary parts?
Most people are "expected to" go to school from the time they're five or six
(give or take a year). If we lay that expectation by, what then does "18"
mean in the absence of the assembly line?**
I've read a couple of articles about kids in foster care losing all their support on the 18th birthday, even if that birthday falls before high school graduation (as mine did). That can be really rough.
Betsy
If we shun "tradition," why should we keep some arbitrary parts?
Most people are "expected to" go to school from the time they're five or six
(give or take a year). If we lay that expectation by, what then does "18"
mean in the absence of the assembly line?**
I've read a couple of articles about kids in foster care losing all their support on the 18th birthday, even if that birthday falls before high school graduation (as mine did). That can be really rough.
Betsy
wifetovegman2002
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
might not be ready at 18, and certainly shouldn't be pushed out of the
nest...but what about the kids who WANT to fly, and fly earlier than 18?
Maybe because they are already free to pursue their interests, and
unschooling parents try their best to provide the means necessary,
they are ready earlier to take on that which is usually reserved for
the 18+ crowd?
~Susan (in VA)
wife to VegMan (aka Ted) since 12/86
momma to Sarah (10/89), Andrew (6/91), and Aaron (3/98)
"It's a small world....but a BIG life!" ~ Aaron, age 6
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html
> Outside of social security, insurance, voting rights and tradition,18 is
> arbitrary. <g>then
>
> If ALL six year olds are ready to leave their moms and go to school,
> ALL 18 year olds are ready to start supporting themselves as adults(at least
> partially).True, and I am finding that it works the other way as well. Some kids
>
> Sandra
might not be ready at 18, and certainly shouldn't be pushed out of the
nest...but what about the kids who WANT to fly, and fly earlier than 18?
Maybe because they are already free to pursue their interests, and
unschooling parents try their best to provide the means necessary,
they are ready earlier to take on that which is usually reserved for
the 18+ crowd?
~Susan (in VA)
wife to VegMan (aka Ted) since 12/86
momma to Sarah (10/89), Andrew (6/91), and Aaron (3/98)
"It's a small world....but a BIG life!" ~ Aaron, age 6
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/27/2005 9:53:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
wifetovegman2002@... writes:
True, and I am finding that it works the other way as well. Some kids
might not be ready at 18, and certainly shouldn't be pushed out of the
nest...but what about the kids who WANT to fly, and fly earlier than 18?
Maybe because they are already free to pursue their interests, and
unschooling parents try their best to provide the means necessary,
they are ready earlier to take on that which is usually reserved for
the 18+ crowd?
============================
By "fly" do you mean move far away, or just do things like get jobs, go to
college early, ride a bike across the continent?
If no one is winding the rubber band tighter and tighter and tighter, there
probably won't be any sudden, wild, distant flight.
I haven't known any kids whose parents gave them freedoms early and who were
supportive of them and did not declare that they would be on their own at 18
who then wanted to move out before they were 18. I'm not saying there
aren't any. I'm saying of the teens I've seen grow up in the families I knew when
they were little, when the parents were gentle attachment-parenting types
(with or without unschooling) or unschoolers who were doing more than just
saying they were unschoolers, but whose family lives really changed, none said "I
am out of here" before they were 18, and none said it after, in that way and
that tone.
Of regular-parenting, always schooled families, I know two in which the
parents (both times a parent and a step-parent, which may or may not be
coincidental) went on and ON in advance of the kid being 18 that at 18 that kid was on
his own. One joined the air force. One got a crummy job, bought a crummy
car from a crummy relative and moved with a crummy girlfriend to a crummy
apartment.
Here's the darndest thing about that: the families aren't under less
stress, with that 18 year old boy gone. Their rent is just as high. Their water
and electricity aren't cheaper. Maybe the food's a little cheaper. Maybe the
house is quieter.
In another family (said "homeschooling" but did squat but pay for American
School and yell at the kids about it seasonally) had a girl who went to babysit
for someone with a six year old, and basically didn't go home much from then
on. Her parents didn't get along, her brother was horrible, she had an
older sister who got pregnant as a teen, married the boyfriend and moved to
Europe. Being at the babysitting house was the best part of her life. She's 18
now or 19, joined the national guard, and is in Baghdad.
Although I think any of my kids could function as adults if suddenly
orphaned, and while I think they're already prepared to be good mates and parents,
I'm in no hurry to shove them out and they're in no hurry to go.
When a family sets time limits and says "When you're fifteen you can date"
and "When you're sixteen you can stay out after midnight" and other such
limitations and "goals," it makes it easy (maybe inevitable) for the child to
think "Yeah, and when I'm 18 I can bail and stop being treated as a powerless and
mindless child."
Holly's in Europe without having to wait until she was 16, or 18 (didn't
even have to wait for school to be out). Kirby is across town on his own, but
that's not a new privilege. He's gone to this gaming shop 15 or 20 miles away
with increasingly regularity. Marty's off camping with his dad, but with
his dad and 1500 or so other people. Keith might not see him much, but I'm not
worried. Marty has his own tent and will go to sleep every single night, at
some point. My big worry is sunscreen.
I'm rambling, but intending to try to remind new readers (and old readers
with only young children <g>) that if choices and freedoms are common and
safety and mutual friendship are common, turning 18 doesn't become a special
threshhold in an unschooling household. [For the social security administration,
that's quite a different matter, and when someone's collecting
mother-of-a-dependent-child benefits, that and the child's check together are over $1000 a
month (maybe a fair amount more, it's been a while since I knew and I don't
know what all the factors might be), and the sudden loss of that much money is
BIGtime, and not an arbitrary thing, and not an unexpected thing.]
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wifetovegman2002@... writes:
True, and I am finding that it works the other way as well. Some kids
might not be ready at 18, and certainly shouldn't be pushed out of the
nest...but what about the kids who WANT to fly, and fly earlier than 18?
Maybe because they are already free to pursue their interests, and
unschooling parents try their best to provide the means necessary,
they are ready earlier to take on that which is usually reserved for
the 18+ crowd?
============================
By "fly" do you mean move far away, or just do things like get jobs, go to
college early, ride a bike across the continent?
If no one is winding the rubber band tighter and tighter and tighter, there
probably won't be any sudden, wild, distant flight.
I haven't known any kids whose parents gave them freedoms early and who were
supportive of them and did not declare that they would be on their own at 18
who then wanted to move out before they were 18. I'm not saying there
aren't any. I'm saying of the teens I've seen grow up in the families I knew when
they were little, when the parents were gentle attachment-parenting types
(with or without unschooling) or unschoolers who were doing more than just
saying they were unschoolers, but whose family lives really changed, none said "I
am out of here" before they were 18, and none said it after, in that way and
that tone.
Of regular-parenting, always schooled families, I know two in which the
parents (both times a parent and a step-parent, which may or may not be
coincidental) went on and ON in advance of the kid being 18 that at 18 that kid was on
his own. One joined the air force. One got a crummy job, bought a crummy
car from a crummy relative and moved with a crummy girlfriend to a crummy
apartment.
Here's the darndest thing about that: the families aren't under less
stress, with that 18 year old boy gone. Their rent is just as high. Their water
and electricity aren't cheaper. Maybe the food's a little cheaper. Maybe the
house is quieter.
In another family (said "homeschooling" but did squat but pay for American
School and yell at the kids about it seasonally) had a girl who went to babysit
for someone with a six year old, and basically didn't go home much from then
on. Her parents didn't get along, her brother was horrible, she had an
older sister who got pregnant as a teen, married the boyfriend and moved to
Europe. Being at the babysitting house was the best part of her life. She's 18
now or 19, joined the national guard, and is in Baghdad.
Although I think any of my kids could function as adults if suddenly
orphaned, and while I think they're already prepared to be good mates and parents,
I'm in no hurry to shove them out and they're in no hurry to go.
When a family sets time limits and says "When you're fifteen you can date"
and "When you're sixteen you can stay out after midnight" and other such
limitations and "goals," it makes it easy (maybe inevitable) for the child to
think "Yeah, and when I'm 18 I can bail and stop being treated as a powerless and
mindless child."
Holly's in Europe without having to wait until she was 16, or 18 (didn't
even have to wait for school to be out). Kirby is across town on his own, but
that's not a new privilege. He's gone to this gaming shop 15 or 20 miles away
with increasingly regularity. Marty's off camping with his dad, but with
his dad and 1500 or so other people. Keith might not see him much, but I'm not
worried. Marty has his own tent and will go to sleep every single night, at
some point. My big worry is sunscreen.
I'm rambling, but intending to try to remind new readers (and old readers
with only young children <g>) that if choices and freedoms are common and
safety and mutual friendship are common, turning 18 doesn't become a special
threshhold in an unschooling household. [For the social security administration,
that's quite a different matter, and when someone's collecting
mother-of-a-dependent-child benefits, that and the child's check together are over $1000 a
month (maybe a fair amount more, it's been a while since I knew and I don't
know what all the factors might be), and the sudden loss of that much money is
BIGtime, and not an arbitrary thing, and not an unexpected thing.]
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wifetovegman2002
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
probable that people younger than 18 or 17 or 16 are also ready for
living completely independently.
I don't mean in a "gotta escape this house and the parental units"
way. I mean in an exciting, ready to move into the larger world
because I know my parents support and love me kind of way.
This week has been a week of reflection for me, as my daughter (15)
got her first "real" job working at the waterpark, has huge
responsibilities there that involve other people's safety, had to get
a work permit and fill out tax forms and open a checking account, take
CPR and first aid and water safety/rescue training, learned about
sexual predators at these parks and how to spot them and report them,
is learning about how a work schedule can dictate what you can and
cannot do the rest of the time (going to the park might work, but a
trip into the city might not because she has to be at work by 3pm, etc.).
I suppose it seems young to me to do all that and learn all that
because I am looking at it through my public-schooled background.
Maybe it isn't so much that she is ready younger than most, but that
she has the freedom to do those things at a younger age? Probably if
more kids had that freedom it wouldn't seem so unusual.
~Susan (VA)
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html
>go to
> By "fly" do you mean move far away, or just do things like get jobs,
> college early, ride a bike across the continent?I mean do things that are usually seen as "grown up" things, but it is
probable that people younger than 18 or 17 or 16 are also ready for
living completely independently.
I don't mean in a "gotta escape this house and the parental units"
way. I mean in an exciting, ready to move into the larger world
because I know my parents support and love me kind of way.
This week has been a week of reflection for me, as my daughter (15)
got her first "real" job working at the waterpark, has huge
responsibilities there that involve other people's safety, had to get
a work permit and fill out tax forms and open a checking account, take
CPR and first aid and water safety/rescue training, learned about
sexual predators at these parks and how to spot them and report them,
is learning about how a work schedule can dictate what you can and
cannot do the rest of the time (going to the park might work, but a
trip into the city might not because she has to be at work by 3pm, etc.).
I suppose it seems young to me to do all that and learn all that
because I am looking at it through my public-schooled background.
Maybe it isn't so much that she is ready younger than most, but that
she has the freedom to do those things at a younger age? Probably if
more kids had that freedom it wouldn't seem so unusual.
~Susan (VA)
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html
[email protected]
My daughter plans to move out at 16 (she's 12 now). Four or five years ago, the plan was to livbe with me forever, and get a really big bed so that I could sleep on one side of her and her husband could sleep on the other. I don't really know what she'll want to do in 4 years... but she's comfortable being a lot more independent than most 12 year olds.
Dar
-- "wifetovegman2002" <wifetovegman2002@...> wrote:
I suppose it seems young to me to do all that and learn all that
because I am looking at it through my public-schooled background.
Maybe it isn't so much that she is ready younger than most, but that
she has the freedom to do those things at a younger age? Probably if
more kids had that freedom it wouldn't seem so unusual.
~
Dar
-- "wifetovegman2002" <wifetovegman2002@...> wrote:
I suppose it seems young to me to do all that and learn all that
because I am looking at it through my public-schooled background.
Maybe it isn't so much that she is ready younger than most, but that
she has the freedom to do those things at a younger age? Probably if
more kids had that freedom it wouldn't seem so unusual.
~