Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] chores and resentment
[email protected]
I'm too sleepy to write well, but will look tomorrow. I was hoping others
would have helped you out!
Just in case you haven't already followed all the trails here, this might
help:
_http://sandradodd.com/chores_ (http://sandradodd.com/chores)
Or hey, if you have read it all in the past, maybe it's time to read it
again, breathing slowly, thinking lovely thoughts.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
would have helped you out!
Just in case you haven't already followed all the trails here, this might
help:
_http://sandradodd.com/chores_ (http://sandradodd.com/chores)
Or hey, if you have read it all in the past, maybe it's time to read it
again, breathing slowly, thinking lovely thoughts.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 19, 2005, at 8:39 PM, Sandrewmama wrote:
yo doesn't is because the 14 yo had assigned chores and the 7 yo
didn't.
I think it's because 1) he's 14 and 2) it's part of his personality.
My daughter never had assigned chores. And if I asked her for help,
even something easy like folding towels, when she was younger it was
like she was being asked to climb Mt. Everest. But when she was 11, she
started noticing things that needed done. She'd carry groceries in and
help me put them away. And now at 13 she asks several times a day if
there's any help I need.
stories. If she reads, ask if there's something she might like to read
to you. Listen to a book on tape together.
My mother had a lot of chores when she was a kid and was determined not
to do that to my sister and me. But what she did was divide the world
into adult work and children's play. She never invited us into her
world to help or spend time with her. And then later when we were teens
and she resented us not helping it didn't (in the midst of my teenage
surliness) make sense to me. She'd done it all before and now all of a
sudden she needed help?
So invite them to help. Invite them to keep you company. Tasks are
often more pleasant when done together.
that you felt were his -- like mowing or paying the bills or getting a
job -- or were not worth the time taken away from the things you
thought were important like scrubbing the garage floor?
At 13 Kathryn can do all that herself but she still likes company.
It sounds harsh but it's often helpful to think "What if this were her
last day on Earth? What if tomorrow all this stuff that brings her joy
would be put away never to come out again?"
What about organizing things for her? Don't expect it to last! But look
for a sensible system that would make things easier for you to put
away. Papers were the bane of my existence ;-) (I swear she must have
gone through 2 big cartons of paper.) I put a box near where she drew
and tossed the drawing in there when I cleaned up. All her notebooks
share space on the shelf with the DVDs because that's where she does
all her drawing.
Joyce
> Ds (14) is always willing and happy to help when II suspect you're suspecting that the reason your 14 yo helps and your 7
> ask him to do specific jobs, which is nice.
> Dd (7) on the other hand, is almost always unwilling to help at
> anytime. She's never had assigned chores.
yo doesn't is because the 14 yo had assigned chores and the 7 yo
didn't.
I think it's because 1) he's 14 and 2) it's part of his personality.
My daughter never had assigned chores. And if I asked her for help,
even something easy like folding towels, when she was younger it was
like she was being asked to climb Mt. Everest. But when she was 11, she
started noticing things that needed done. She'd carry groceries in and
help me put them away. And now at 13 she asks several times a day if
there's any help I need.
> Laundry chores used to be shared between Ds andHow about inviting her to keep you company? Have conversations. Tell
> myself, pre-RU times, but now they have evolved to be almost
> exclusively mine.
stories. If she reads, ask if there's something she might like to read
to you. Listen to a book on tape together.
My mother had a lot of chores when she was a kid and was determined not
to do that to my sister and me. But what she did was divide the world
into adult work and children's play. She never invited us into her
world to help or spend time with her. And then later when we were teens
and she resented us not helping it didn't (in the midst of my teenage
surliness) make sense to me. She'd done it all before and now all of a
sudden she needed help?
So invite them to help. Invite them to keep you company. Tasks are
often more pleasant when done together.
> I'm considering making a list for the refrigerator, a public postingHow would it feel if your husband put up one for you? Full of things
> so-to-speak.
that you felt were his -- like mowing or paying the bills or getting a
job -- or were not worth the time taken away from the things you
thought were important like scrubbing the garage floor?
> She is constantly asking for help finding thingsYup. Sounds like Kathryn at that age :-)
> because she is one of those creative types who leaves her creations
> and treasures scattered about the house as she moves from one project
> to the next. Along with her creations are the excess materials and
> tools she uses to make them.
> She also scatters her clothing, shoes,Yup, and all that too even the bum wiping. It's just who she is.
> books and anything else she picks up and moves to another spot
> throughout the day. Along with this, she also requests that I HELP
> her change clothes, brush teeth, wash face, take a bath, go to sleep
> (we cosleep), wipe her tush and many other every day tasks that the
> majority of 7-1/2 year olds are usually competent in and willing to
> do for themselves.
At 13 Kathryn can do all that herself but she still likes company.
It sounds harsh but it's often helpful to think "What if this were her
last day on Earth? What if tomorrow all this stuff that brings her joy
would be put away never to come out again?"
What about organizing things for her? Don't expect it to last! But look
for a sensible system that would make things easier for you to put
away. Papers were the bane of my existence ;-) (I swear she must have
gone through 2 big cartons of paper.) I put a box near where she drew
and tossed the drawing in there when I cleaned up. All her notebooks
share space on the shelf with the DVDs because that's where she does
all her drawing.
Joyce
soggyboysmom
Ditto to what Joyce said about finding a workable organization
system - even if it just means plastic bins in each room that you
toss her stuff into as you go about the day (if she's moved on from
the) - that way all her stuff is contained and it's easier to look
in 3 or 4 bins than to have to check floors, under couches and
cushions, in cubby holes, etc. We've got bins of all sorts all over
the place. If I walk by the couch on the way to something and spot
Spiderman sitting on the back of the couch, with DS nowhere insight,
I grab Spidey and pop him into the nearest suitable bin. (a) Spidey
is safe from predation by the dogs (b) he is findable again when he
is needed (c) the couch remains usable without risking bruised buns
from sitting on action figures (a big risk for DS who, at just about
7, still prefers au naturel to clothing much of the time). Rather
than having to do big cleanups, most of the time we use the 'drip'
method - pick up along the way in bits and overall things stay tidy.
With DS, too, we've found that if we simply ask him to keep us
company (which he tends to prefer anyhow - he prefers to play in
whatever room us grownups are in), eventually he pitches in to help.
For instance, we just got a new dresser for our room (hand me down
from friends - free is good!) So, that initiated a major overhaul of
drawers and closet space (okay closet isn't completed yet, we're
getting there...lol). DH and I set about sorting out stuff that was
stashed in the back of drawers and needed to (a) be thrown out -
like old, ripped, single socks (b) given away - like the size medium
t shirts that I'll never wear again but are still in good shape (c)
moved to the other dresser - my stuff moved to the new dresser, DH's
stuff got distributed between the two small dressers we had been
using. We started sorting, DS was zooming about playing. As he
zoomed by, oneor the other of us might ask him to bring an item to
or from one place to another in his trajectory. No problems with
that, just added to his game. Then he decided he would be the
official delivery person bringing things to and from (the concept of
an assembly line is a biggie for him these days). So he was taking
items we indicated to the trash bag, other items to the give away
basket, and other items to whichever location they needed to go to.
When he wanted to simply play for a bit, he did. Then again, when DH
wanted to stop for a minute to watch a bit of TV (Mythbusters was
on), he did. Same principle.
system - even if it just means plastic bins in each room that you
toss her stuff into as you go about the day (if she's moved on from
the) - that way all her stuff is contained and it's easier to look
in 3 or 4 bins than to have to check floors, under couches and
cushions, in cubby holes, etc. We've got bins of all sorts all over
the place. If I walk by the couch on the way to something and spot
Spiderman sitting on the back of the couch, with DS nowhere insight,
I grab Spidey and pop him into the nearest suitable bin. (a) Spidey
is safe from predation by the dogs (b) he is findable again when he
is needed (c) the couch remains usable without risking bruised buns
from sitting on action figures (a big risk for DS who, at just about
7, still prefers au naturel to clothing much of the time). Rather
than having to do big cleanups, most of the time we use the 'drip'
method - pick up along the way in bits and overall things stay tidy.
With DS, too, we've found that if we simply ask him to keep us
company (which he tends to prefer anyhow - he prefers to play in
whatever room us grownups are in), eventually he pitches in to help.
For instance, we just got a new dresser for our room (hand me down
from friends - free is good!) So, that initiated a major overhaul of
drawers and closet space (okay closet isn't completed yet, we're
getting there...lol). DH and I set about sorting out stuff that was
stashed in the back of drawers and needed to (a) be thrown out -
like old, ripped, single socks (b) given away - like the size medium
t shirts that I'll never wear again but are still in good shape (c)
moved to the other dresser - my stuff moved to the new dresser, DH's
stuff got distributed between the two small dressers we had been
using. We started sorting, DS was zooming about playing. As he
zoomed by, oneor the other of us might ask him to bring an item to
or from one place to another in his trajectory. No problems with
that, just added to his game. Then he decided he would be the
official delivery person bringing things to and from (the concept of
an assembly line is a biggie for him these days). So he was taking
items we indicated to the trash bag, other items to the give away
basket, and other items to whichever location they needed to go to.
When he wanted to simply play for a bit, he did. Then again, when DH
wanted to stop for a minute to watch a bit of TV (Mythbusters was
on), he did. Same principle.
wilson family
Today I had a friend over for breakfast before she had to be at work. This
meant that I had to get up at 7am about an hour before I usually do. My kids
usually get up later still.Anyway today my daughter heard me cooking in the
kitchen and came out and after some time passed I asked if she wanted to
empty the dishwasher well, she sure didn't seem to thrilled to do that. So I
just started doing it -no problem -I didn't make her feel bad for not
feeling like doing that chore, but then she went on to do the kinds of
things that she does enjoy doing and that she knows needs to be done. She
did this because she knew I could use the help and that I would appreciate
her input. She wiped down the table, found a tablecloth to cover it with,
set the table including going out to the garden to pick a lovely bouquet of
flowers which I would of never had time to do.
Anyway I guess my point is that perhaps you and your kids can work out
together what chores you each like to do. Sometimes my kids don't do the
chore I originally wanted help with, but they'll do something else that
saves me time or work and its all appreciated. You could all get together
and you tell your kids what your problems are and then open a
brainstorming session on what can be done to help. Often they come up with
ideas that are so out of the box and are really great. Just working on
problems in this fashion can be fun and bring each other closer. Often times
I found out that they were not aware of any problem and are genuinely eager
to help out. Anyway, just having a casual, not blaming anyone, family
meeting can't hurt- give it a try.
~Steph
meant that I had to get up at 7am about an hour before I usually do. My kids
usually get up later still.Anyway today my daughter heard me cooking in the
kitchen and came out and after some time passed I asked if she wanted to
empty the dishwasher well, she sure didn't seem to thrilled to do that. So I
just started doing it -no problem -I didn't make her feel bad for not
feeling like doing that chore, but then she went on to do the kinds of
things that she does enjoy doing and that she knows needs to be done. She
did this because she knew I could use the help and that I would appreciate
her input. She wiped down the table, found a tablecloth to cover it with,
set the table including going out to the garden to pick a lovely bouquet of
flowers which I would of never had time to do.
Anyway I guess my point is that perhaps you and your kids can work out
together what chores you each like to do. Sometimes my kids don't do the
chore I originally wanted help with, but they'll do something else that
saves me time or work and its all appreciated. You could all get together
and you tell your kids what your problems are and then open a
brainstorming session on what can be done to help. Often they come up with
ideas that are so out of the box and are really great. Just working on
problems in this fashion can be fun and bring each other closer. Often times
I found out that they were not aware of any problem and are genuinely eager
to help out. Anyway, just having a casual, not blaming anyone, family
meeting can't hurt- give it a try.
~Steph
chrfath816
Thanks for bringing this up. My DS has not been helping with anything
basically since DD was born 2 years ago. I thought it was because of
that. I am glad to see he isn't the only 7 year old who doesn't like
to be interupted to help with housework. I have been gladly accepting
his answers of "no" and letting him help with what ever he chooses when
he does.
It was nice reading everyones input.
Christi
basically since DD was born 2 years ago. I thought it was because of
that. I am glad to see he isn't the only 7 year old who doesn't like
to be interupted to help with housework. I have been gladly accepting
his answers of "no" and letting him help with what ever he chooses when
he does.
It was nice reading everyones input.
Christi
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/21/2005 4:57:58 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
sandrewmama@... writes:
This is a very good point. I tend to do that same kind of division.
Housework is THE enemy of playtime. I need to work on my multi-
tasking skills. Cleaning the kitchen while carrying on an imaginary
character conversation would probably work. Dd's favorite way to
play is to pretend together.
=========================
If you're having fun with what you're doing, it can BE playtime. I do
patterns when I put the dishes away. I can't describe it, as I've never thought
of it in words before, but I do tricks with the silverware and my fingers, or
I think patterns with the glasses and bowls. I don't do it in the same
order every time, because the patterns kind of randomize it. (WEIRD--I've never
considered telling anyone this, and kinda figured everyone did it, but I have
a friend who never varies her routines, and I don't even HAVE routines.)
Music and singing help us when we have things to make or fix or put away.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandrewmama@... writes:
This is a very good point. I tend to do that same kind of division.
Housework is THE enemy of playtime. I need to work on my multi-
tasking skills. Cleaning the kitchen while carrying on an imaginary
character conversation would probably work. Dd's favorite way to
play is to pretend together.
=========================
If you're having fun with what you're doing, it can BE playtime. I do
patterns when I put the dishes away. I can't describe it, as I've never thought
of it in words before, but I do tricks with the silverware and my fingers, or
I think patterns with the glasses and bowls. I don't do it in the same
order every time, because the patterns kind of randomize it. (WEIRD--I've never
considered telling anyone this, and kinda figured everyone did it, but I have
a friend who never varies her routines, and I don't even HAVE routines.)
Music and singing help us when we have things to make or fix or put away.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/21/2005 11:06:44 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
sandrewmama@... writes:
-=- But he remembers
and still feels somewhat responsible for the kinds of chores that
used to be assigned to him. Sometimes when I'm particularly busy
with chore-like tasks, he feels guilty, offers to help or just
apologizes, for what he doesn't know. He also gets on his sister's
case about helping me since she makes the majority of the messes.-=-
I'm guessing you've talked to him about this.
Have you apologized for having made him feel more responsible than he should
have to feel, and said you didn't mean to do it and you'd like to avoid it
with his sister?
I apologize to Kirby sometimes, when I think about things I wish I'd done
differently. I'm hoping if nothing else it will help him know how he wants to
be with his own children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandrewmama@... writes:
-=- But he remembers
and still feels somewhat responsible for the kinds of chores that
used to be assigned to him. Sometimes when I'm particularly busy
with chore-like tasks, he feels guilty, offers to help or just
apologizes, for what he doesn't know. He also gets on his sister's
case about helping me since she makes the majority of the messes.-=-
I'm guessing you've talked to him about this.
Have you apologized for having made him feel more responsible than he should
have to feel, and said you didn't mean to do it and you'd like to avoid it
with his sister?
I apologize to Kirby sometimes, when I think about things I wish I'd done
differently. I'm hoping if nothing else it will help him know how he wants to
be with his own children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/21/2005 6:29:53 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
If you're having fun with what you're doing, it can BE playtime. I do
patterns when I put the dishes away. I can't describe it, as I've never
thought
of it in words before, but I do tricks with the silverware and my fingers,
or
I think patterns with the glasses and bowls. I don't do it in the same
order every time, because the patterns kind of randomize it. (WEIRD--I've
never
considered telling anyone this, and kinda figured everyone did it, but I
have
a friend who never varies her routines, and I don't even HAVE routines.)
~~~
When I worked at FedEx I learned a certain way of stacking the containers
with the boxes to make them as tightly packed and secure as possible.
I found myself in the grocery store stacking my shopping cart the way I
stacked containers! It's been a few years since I worked at FedEx, so I don't
remember much about the stacking techniques, but I do arrange my shopping cart
a certain way these days, and put the stuff on the belt a certain way. I'm a
routine maker, not a pattern maker.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
If you're having fun with what you're doing, it can BE playtime. I do
patterns when I put the dishes away. I can't describe it, as I've never
thought
of it in words before, but I do tricks with the silverware and my fingers,
or
I think patterns with the glasses and bowls. I don't do it in the same
order every time, because the patterns kind of randomize it. (WEIRD--I've
never
considered telling anyone this, and kinda figured everyone did it, but I
have
a friend who never varies her routines, and I don't even HAVE routines.)
~~~
When I worked at FedEx I learned a certain way of stacking the containers
with the boxes to make them as tightly packed and secure as possible.
I found myself in the grocery store stacking my shopping cart the way I
stacked containers! It's been a few years since I worked at FedEx, so I don't
remember much about the stacking techniques, but I do arrange my shopping cart
a certain way these days, and put the stuff on the belt a certain way. I'm a
routine maker, not a pattern maker.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/19/05 7:00:34 PM, sandrewmama@... writes:
<< . I've noticed that I am having
difficulty not feeling resentful at the lack of help I'm getting
around the house. We're relatively new to this RU thing, maybe 6
months into it.
. . .
I'm just not sure what is a good way to handle this situation.
Mostly, I try taking deep breaths and finding the joy in doing the
housekeeping tasks while my kids are happily occupied with their
interests. >>
Chris, how is this going?
Any better?
This was in my "follow up" pile, and I've been thinking sometimes lately
about childless friends I have (several were over last night and stirred this back
up in my mind) and how they have housework too, but no kids to blame it on.
And how some families consider it virtue to make their kids do LOTS and scads
of the work the parents would have had even if they hadn't had kids.
Anyone been having any new thoughts or successes or fears?
Sandra
<< . I've noticed that I am having
difficulty not feeling resentful at the lack of help I'm getting
around the house. We're relatively new to this RU thing, maybe 6
months into it.
. . .
I'm just not sure what is a good way to handle this situation.
Mostly, I try taking deep breaths and finding the joy in doing the
housekeeping tasks while my kids are happily occupied with their
interests. >>
Chris, how is this going?
Any better?
This was in my "follow up" pile, and I've been thinking sometimes lately
about childless friends I have (several were over last night and stirred this back
up in my mind) and how they have housework too, but no kids to blame it on.
And how some families consider it virtue to make their kids do LOTS and scads
of the work the parents would have had even if they hadn't had kids.
Anyone been having any new thoughts or successes or fears?
Sandra
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], Sandrewmama
<sandrewmama@m...> wrote:
clutter of books scattered on the bed for hard surfaces? I know places
like WalMart have the kind that is a cushion similar to a beanbag
chair underneath and a smooth hard surface on top (often with a
shallow border to keep things from rolling off). Several years ago DS
got a lap desk type thing (like a breakfast in bed tray, with legs on
either end) that had trays on either side for writing implements and
whatever else and the top slid open to store paper, stickers, etc.
That one in particular was designed for use in travel so maybe check
both the bedroom accessories and the vehicle accessories areas.
<sandrewmama@m...> wrote:
>How about a comfy lap desk for her - more space to draw on, less
> The other night, as she sat in bed, drawing, with papers >scattered
> around her, she said for the umpteenth time, "I just LOVE to draw
>so
> much!" I focus on those moments of pure personality and don't >let
> the various piles of drawings and books (for something hard to
>draw
> on in bed) and rolling pens, bother me in the morning.
>
> Thanks for asking.
>
> Chris
> (not in the UK ;-)
clutter of books scattered on the bed for hard surfaces? I know places
like WalMart have the kind that is a cushion similar to a beanbag
chair underneath and a smooth hard surface on top (often with a
shallow border to keep things from rolling off). Several years ago DS
got a lap desk type thing (like a breakfast in bed tray, with legs on
either end) that had trays on either side for writing implements and
whatever else and the top slid open to store paper, stickers, etc.
That one in particular was designed for use in travel so maybe check
both the bedroom accessories and the vehicle accessories areas.
Schuyler Waynforth
I've recently changed my mind about mess. I love the stories that
each pile tells about our day. The mahjong tiles and the yu-gi-oh
cards and the feathers become quills with the ink bottles lined up on
the kitchen table talk of days of activities. And while when I'm
cleaning up for people coming to dinner or something I may get a
little testy, it isn't anywhere near as stressful as it once was
'round here. Talking aloud about it with David (dh) seems to help him
change his view as well.
Schuyler
P.S. I also really liked Dawn (in NS) saved post at unschooling info
(http://www.unschooling.info/collectedposts/collectedposts1.htm) about
her take on housework.
--- In [email protected], Sandrewmama
<sandrewmama@m...> wrote:
each pile tells about our day. The mahjong tiles and the yu-gi-oh
cards and the feathers become quills with the ink bottles lined up on
the kitchen table talk of days of activities. And while when I'm
cleaning up for people coming to dinner or something I may get a
little testy, it isn't anywhere near as stressful as it once was
'round here. Talking aloud about it with David (dh) seems to help him
change his view as well.
Schuyler
P.S. I also really liked Dawn (in NS) saved post at unschooling info
(http://www.unschooling.info/collectedposts/collectedposts1.htm) about
her take on housework.
--- In [email protected], Sandrewmama
<sandrewmama@m...> wrote:
> It's going fine.
>
> Not much has changed except for my expectations. I think that my
> frustration levels cycle and lately I'm pretty relaxed. I have a bit
> of hostess anxiety that kicks in when we're expecting company and
> that is when I struggle the hardest to not inflict them on the kids.
> I also start preparing for visitors earlier so that any special
> cleaning that needs done is done calmly and not as the clock is
> ticking loudly down to their arrival moment.
>
> I think that Joyce's message about Kathryn having had similar needs
> as my 7 year-old Dd helped a lot too.
>
> The other night, as she sat in bed, drawing, with papers scattered
> around her, she said for the umpteenth time, "I just LOVE to draw so
> much!" I focus on those moments of pure personality and don't let
> the various piles of drawings and books (for something hard to draw
> on in bed) and rolling pens, bother me in the morning.
>
> Thanks for asking.
>
> Chris
> (not in the UK ;-)
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2005, at 8:17 AM, SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> > Chris, how is this going?
> > Any better?
> >
> > This was in my "follow up" pile, and I've been thinking sometimes
> > lately
> > about childless friends I have (several were over last night and
> > stirred this back
> > up in my mind) and how they have housework too, but no kids to
> > blame it on.
> > And how some families consider it virtue to make their kids do LOTS
> > and scads
> > of the work the parents would have had even if they hadn't had kids.
> >
> > Anyone been having any new thoughts or successes or fears?
> >
> > Sandra
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie W
SandraDodd@... wrote:
house the more opportunity for extra housework.
The more the other folks in your home think its ok to leave their socks,
shoes, video games, light sabers, blankets, werewolf mask (yes in the
living room as we speak), blankets and pillows (left on the floor from
sleeping out in the living room the night before), ravioli can, fork,
bowl, the 4 glasses he used to drink out of the day before without
making any effort to move some of the items back into their proper place
(I won't even mention the bacteria experiment that is his bathroom which
is right off the living room)----well I can see how one might want a
little help. Then there are all the voices around you are saying that
they "must do chores" and such.
I'm way more willing now then I was a few years ago to pick up and clean
up after Josh because in a lot of ways they are MY issues. He does the
bathroom sometimes, but I do it more because I care more and would hate
for a guest to use that bathroom in its natural state. I'll move his
stuff back to his room to deal with. If I can't walk through his room
I'll pick up a bit---he really appreciates that and sometimes I think
the mess gets so big he's unable to figure out where to start 1st.
His father is way less forgiving and much more of a "gotta do the
chores" guy.
But my biggest fear is that when he grows up and gets married, instead
of being a man who can clean up after himself like I got from my MIL, he
will be a guy who thinks his job is to sit on the sofa playing video
games while his wife cleans up around him. In the end of my nightmare my
DIL hates me and never lets me see our grandkids lest I infect them with
the messy gene.
Of course this is just silly 'cause Josh is a helpful and kind guy who
would probably share household responsibilities.
--
Julie W
http://jwoolfolk.typepad.com/theothermother/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Well sure everyone has some amount of housework, but the more folks in a
> This was in my "follow up" pile, and I've been thinking sometimes lately
> about childless friends I have (several were over last night and
> stirred this back
> up in my mind) and how they have housework too, but no kids to blame
> it on.
>
>
house the more opportunity for extra housework.
The more the other folks in your home think its ok to leave their socks,
shoes, video games, light sabers, blankets, werewolf mask (yes in the
living room as we speak), blankets and pillows (left on the floor from
sleeping out in the living room the night before), ravioli can, fork,
bowl, the 4 glasses he used to drink out of the day before without
making any effort to move some of the items back into their proper place
(I won't even mention the bacteria experiment that is his bathroom which
is right off the living room)----well I can see how one might want a
little help. Then there are all the voices around you are saying that
they "must do chores" and such.
I'm way more willing now then I was a few years ago to pick up and clean
up after Josh because in a lot of ways they are MY issues. He does the
bathroom sometimes, but I do it more because I care more and would hate
for a guest to use that bathroom in its natural state. I'll move his
stuff back to his room to deal with. If I can't walk through his room
I'll pick up a bit---he really appreciates that and sometimes I think
the mess gets so big he's unable to figure out where to start 1st.
His father is way less forgiving and much more of a "gotta do the
chores" guy.
But my biggest fear is that when he grows up and gets married, instead
of being a man who can clean up after himself like I got from my MIL, he
will be a guy who thinks his job is to sit on the sofa playing video
games while his wife cleans up around him. In the end of my nightmare my
DIL hates me and never lets me see our grandkids lest I infect them with
the messy gene.
Of course this is just silly 'cause Josh is a helpful and kind guy who
would probably share household responsibilities.
--
Julie W
http://jwoolfolk.typepad.com/theothermother/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela S.
We all eat in the living room regularly. When I am headed to the kitchen for whatever reason, I always grab a glass or plate and take it with me. It's pretty easy to keep the dishes out of the living room that way, without it feeling like extra work. I also mention to the kids, if I notice them heading that way, that they might grab a glass and take it to the kitchen on their way. The do it without complaint if they are on their way.
My kids also leave a lot of their things on the floor but I've found I can't really say to them, "don't you care if it gets trashed?" becuase in reality we are all (excpet dh sometimes, but he's away on business as much as he is home) very careful of where we step and things can stay on the floor for ages and be just fine when they eventually get back to them. (maybe with a little dust on them.)
I know some people who had lots of chores as a kid whose houses are always trashed and I know other people who are anal about how clean their houses are, as were their parents. It probably depends on how your kids see doing chores, as to how they are as an adult with the freedom to do as they choose.
My own house is fairly cluttered sometimes, very neat for short periods, but generally clean enough to be healthy. I didn't have regular chores as a kids, although I was expected to help out now and then when things needed to be done, like help stack wood or help with dishes when the dish washer was broken. I enjoy a neat house but living an unschooling life and taking the time to follow my interests as well as help my kids follow theirs, doesn't leave the amount of time it would take to keep my house as neat as I would like it. It isn't my first concern nor even my second. The people I know whose houses are their top priority, over their kids, aren't really the kind of people I enjoy being around, tbh.
My kids also leave a lot of their things on the floor but I've found I can't really say to them, "don't you care if it gets trashed?" becuase in reality we are all (excpet dh sometimes, but he's away on business as much as he is home) very careful of where we step and things can stay on the floor for ages and be just fine when they eventually get back to them. (maybe with a little dust on them.)
I know some people who had lots of chores as a kid whose houses are always trashed and I know other people who are anal about how clean their houses are, as were their parents. It probably depends on how your kids see doing chores, as to how they are as an adult with the freedom to do as they choose.
My own house is fairly cluttered sometimes, very neat for short periods, but generally clean enough to be healthy. I didn't have regular chores as a kids, although I was expected to help out now and then when things needed to be done, like help stack wood or help with dishes when the dish washer was broken. I enjoy a neat house but living an unschooling life and taking the time to follow my interests as well as help my kids follow theirs, doesn't leave the amount of time it would take to keep my house as neat as I would like it. It isn't my first concern nor even my second. The people I know whose houses are their top priority, over their kids, aren't really the kind of people I enjoy being around, tbh.
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/15/2005 12:13:06 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
(I won't even mention the bacteria experiment that is his bathroom which
is right off the living room)
Would there have been a bathroom there if you hadn't had a child?
-=-But my biggest fear is that when he grows up and gets married, instead
of being a man who can clean up after himself like I got from my MIL, he
will be a guy who thinks his job is to sit on the sofa playing video
games while his wife cleans up around him.-=-
Some of the laziest adults I know were made to do a LOT of chores and heavy
yardwork and wood hauling, etc., when they were kids. And the one who is THE
most industrious and concerned about his house and yard and car is the one
we used to tease because his mom picked his laundry up and brought it back
folded and put it in his drawers for him.
Anyway, there's a big genetic component (discovered in studies of adult
twins who were separated at birth) and so it's just like trying to make all your
kids be equally good at writing or math or music, to try to make them all want
to clean up and do it well.
-=-DIL hates me and never lets me see our grandkids lest I infect them with
the messy gene.-=-
Too late on the genes (if the kids are your son's).
-=-Of course this is just silly 'cause Josh is a helpful and kind guy who
would probably share household responsibilities.-=-
Maybe the clean genes are dominant. <bwg>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
(I won't even mention the bacteria experiment that is his bathroom which
is right off the living room)
Would there have been a bathroom there if you hadn't had a child?
-=-But my biggest fear is that when he grows up and gets married, instead
of being a man who can clean up after himself like I got from my MIL, he
will be a guy who thinks his job is to sit on the sofa playing video
games while his wife cleans up around him.-=-
Some of the laziest adults I know were made to do a LOT of chores and heavy
yardwork and wood hauling, etc., when they were kids. And the one who is THE
most industrious and concerned about his house and yard and car is the one
we used to tease because his mom picked his laundry up and brought it back
folded and put it in his drawers for him.
Anyway, there's a big genetic component (discovered in studies of adult
twins who were separated at birth) and so it's just like trying to make all your
kids be equally good at writing or math or music, to try to make them all want
to clean up and do it well.
-=-DIL hates me and never lets me see our grandkids lest I infect them with
the messy gene.-=-
Too late on the genes (if the kids are your son's).
-=-Of course this is just silly 'cause Josh is a helpful and kind guy who
would probably share household responsibilities.-=-
Maybe the clean genes are dominant. <bwg>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/15/2005 12:30:53 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
game-enthusiast@... writes:
The people I know whose houses are their top priority, over their kids,
aren't really the kind of people I enjoy being around, tbh.
That (house priority) has been given as another kind of justification for
school, so that the mom has time to do housework. That's funny, when there are
pre-schoolers in the picture, but when kids are all schoolage, some women DO
have a housework blitz kind of routine and then the kids aren't allowed to
mess up the mom's house. If they do well in school, they can grow up to have
their own houses, but that one isn't always considered theirs. They are
schoolkids who might or might not be in the process of getting a scholarship to
Harvard to become doctors and lawyers so they can buy a house and not share it
generously with THEIR kids.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
game-enthusiast@... writes:
The people I know whose houses are their top priority, over their kids,
aren't really the kind of people I enjoy being around, tbh.
That (house priority) has been given as another kind of justification for
school, so that the mom has time to do housework. That's funny, when there are
pre-schoolers in the picture, but when kids are all schoolage, some women DO
have a housework blitz kind of routine and then the kids aren't allowed to
mess up the mom's house. If they do well in school, they can grow up to have
their own houses, but that one isn't always considered theirs. They are
schoolkids who might or might not be in the process of getting a scholarship to
Harvard to become doctors and lawyers so they can buy a house and not share it
generously with THEIR kids.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
K Krejci
I grew up with grandparents with plastic slipcovers
and a living room in our house that we were not
allowed in unless accompanied by an adult. My sister
was a self-absorbed princess with whom I shared a
room. I had one dresser drawer that actually held
clothes (the rest had my collections of interesting
stuff) and a bed that probably had one leg off the
ground from covering most of my other interesting
stuff. I never had chores but I was constantly
hounded, criticized and brow-beaten to 'clean.'
Yes, I was a slob. But I would also have been more
willing to clean and be helpful if I hadn't been
continuously bullied. As a grown-up-type person, I
have had phases of Susie Homemaker-ness, including
cleaning the INSIDE of my vacuum cleaner when I was
pregnant with my first sweet boy. Most of the time, I
put things away in the same places because I have a
really poor memory. And I like the kitchen to be free
of dirty dishes because gnats are annoying.
Other than that, I'm ok with everyone keeping their
things as they wish. If it bugs me, I'll move it. If
it's a huge mess, I'll offer to help clean up. But I
know from personal experience that sniping, badgering,
demanding and bossing kill any spirit of cooperation
or pleasure in accomplishment that a kid might get out
of doing stuff around the old homestead.
As always, your mileage may vary.
Kathy (whose house is clean enough to be healthy and
dirty enough to be happy)
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
and a living room in our house that we were not
allowed in unless accompanied by an adult. My sister
was a self-absorbed princess with whom I shared a
room. I had one dresser drawer that actually held
clothes (the rest had my collections of interesting
stuff) and a bed that probably had one leg off the
ground from covering most of my other interesting
stuff. I never had chores but I was constantly
hounded, criticized and brow-beaten to 'clean.'
Yes, I was a slob. But I would also have been more
willing to clean and be helpful if I hadn't been
continuously bullied. As a grown-up-type person, I
have had phases of Susie Homemaker-ness, including
cleaning the INSIDE of my vacuum cleaner when I was
pregnant with my first sweet boy. Most of the time, I
put things away in the same places because I have a
really poor memory. And I like the kitchen to be free
of dirty dishes because gnats are annoying.
Other than that, I'm ok with everyone keeping their
things as they wish. If it bugs me, I'll move it. If
it's a huge mess, I'll offer to help clean up. But I
know from personal experience that sniping, badgering,
demanding and bossing kill any spirit of cooperation
or pleasure in accomplishment that a kid might get out
of doing stuff around the old homestead.
As always, your mileage may vary.
Kathy (whose house is clean enough to be healthy and
dirty enough to be happy)
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
[email protected]
My kids are really nice to me and pretty nice to each other. They'll
deliver food to their dad in the back or the garage if he's working, and any of
them will bring dirty dishes they pass by as they move through the house.
None of my kids cleans toilets. I bet when they have their own places
they'll clean toilets better than I do. (That would be a pretty easy
accomplishment, as I don't clean toilets very regularly either, but when I do, they're
CLEAN and then time passes again... <g>)
All of my kids have volunteered or been asked to help unrelated adults do
difficult things and have never once been sent away for incompetence or lack of
serious. No one has ever complained about the job my kids did when they
helped out with whatever it was---moving, cleaning, cutting, stacking, set-up
for card tournaments, babysitting, party set-up, whatever.
Kirby showed up at 11:30 last night to go to a movie with Marty and other
friends, instead of the 11:00 they had told him to try to do. That's the
biggest failure of months here. <g>
The movie was at midnight. He was half an hour early, not the hour the
group had decided on. They were waiting for him in the theatre, so it wasn't a
huge inconvenience. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
deliver food to their dad in the back or the garage if he's working, and any of
them will bring dirty dishes they pass by as they move through the house.
None of my kids cleans toilets. I bet when they have their own places
they'll clean toilets better than I do. (That would be a pretty easy
accomplishment, as I don't clean toilets very regularly either, but when I do, they're
CLEAN and then time passes again... <g>)
All of my kids have volunteered or been asked to help unrelated adults do
difficult things and have never once been sent away for incompetence or lack of
serious. No one has ever complained about the job my kids did when they
helped out with whatever it was---moving, cleaning, cutting, stacking, set-up
for card tournaments, babysitting, party set-up, whatever.
Kirby showed up at 11:30 last night to go to a movie with Marty and other
friends, instead of the 11:00 they had told him to try to do. That's the
biggest failure of months here. <g>
The movie was at midnight. He was half an hour early, not the hour the
group had decided on. They were waiting for him in the theatre, so it wasn't a
huge inconvenience. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
deedeanne
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
(house priority) has been given as another kind of justification
for
> school, so that the mom has time to do housework. That's funny,
when there are
> pre-schoolers in the picture, but when kids are all schoolage,
some women DO
> have a housework blitz kind of routine and then the kids aren't
allowed to
> mess up the mom's house. If they do well in school, they can
grow up to have
> their own houses, but that one isn't always considered theirs.
They are
> schoolkids who might or might not be in the process of getting a
scholarship to
> Harvard to become doctors and lawyers so they can buy a house and
not share it
> generously with THEIR kids.
>
> Sandra
Yes, my mother has even used that one on me...."With the kids in
school, you would have more time to take care of the house and
yourself." I told her I would not send the kids to school just so I
could clean and exercise. I don't find either to be as appealing as
being with my kids<g>, and it's just not worth it. Besides, my MIL,
whose house was always "chaotic" until the last of her 4 kids moved
out told me that now, "It's nice and clean, but it's soooo quiet.
It's too quiet."
Another observation I made since moving to FL is that so many of the
retired folks down here have WHITE everything---white cars, white
rugs, white couches, white cabinets,etc. Over the years we've been
fortunate to receive alot of secondhand furnishings and such from my
parents friends, but usually in white! Our friends comment on
our "fine" furnishings and I always say, "yes, but I never would
have picked white with 3 kids, a cat, and a dog in the house."
Many of the older folks down here will also look longingly at our
kids and say things like, "S/He looks just like my grandkid up
north, but I haven't seen him/her since....." or "My son used to
have hair just like that." If I get frustrated with the mess, I
remind myself I would rather have my kids around me than white
cabinets. I'm not really eager for those "white cabinet days". I
think these days are much more fun, at least they can be if I let
them.
Deanne
Kelly Shultz
> Hello,This is my first post to the group, although I've been reading
enthusiastically for a while. I feel compelled by the topic, because
in our home we seem to be seeking a slightly elusive balance between
relaxed living and home comforts - some days all is harmonious, but
then some days when we can't find the particular fairy we are looking
for, or the baby's favorite bedtime book, a favorite skirt, etc, it is
less than harmonious. We don't have assigned chores, and with three
kids (dd6,dd4 and ds1) all very creative and active, and two adults, it
is a challenge sometimes to stay on top of the things that make a home
comfortable and livable, while still enjoying our day (and avoiding
some of that resentment that can pop up occasionally).
We are unschooling ourselves, though, and the miracle of unschooling is
that it tends to make us think about how we do EVERYTHING, and see if
there is a different way to approach it - wow, didn't realize we'd be
doing that two years ago when we started this journey!!
Anyway, there are a few little things that I've been doing differently
lately, that have helped and reduced the possible frustration factor,
so I thought I'd share in case it might help someone out there.
1. Harnessing Periods of Natural Energy - wow, this one might sound
like a no-brainer, but just recently I realized that I was totally
defeating myself. Every day I would say "Oh, I'll clean up that mess
after the kids are asleep for the night." Doing everything at night
was a long-time habit from working out of the home for many years.
Well, I am naturally a morning person, and after I nurse and cuddle
everyone to sleep at night, the cleaning rarely happens since I'm
usually asleep too. So recently I just started to try and tackle some
of the necessary things during the morning, a totally different
approach, and it has worked really well - I am less likely to be trying
to clean up when I am tired and uninterested, and it also helps because
the kids are generally in a pretty calm mood at that time of day too,
so they are fine with me doing a few things. For some folks, the
opposite might hold true, and they might be better able to sort their
Polly Pocket/Bionicle pieces at midnight, but using whatever time frame
you have more energy might help avoid the frustration factor and
grumbliness.
2. Following Our Path Through the House - we seem to have a meandering
path through the house throughout the course of the day, from breakfast
table to tv/play area, to bathroom to bedroom for naps, and back again.
Recently, I decided that I would just try to do a few things as we use
each room, so that the room would be a little bit better than when we
started (not perfect mind you, just a tiny little bit better). The
little bits and pieces that I can put away in a minute here or there
really add up throughout the day, and again, that frustration factor
seems reduced. I think for me a lot of the frustration comes from a
lack of control and a sense that the mess is too much to handle at one
time (especially if company is coming soon). Chipping away at it all
day gives a sense of progress that can be encouraging.
3. Scooch and Clean - Basically what I have been doing lately is
following the baby around the house (in addition to number 2 above),
and wherever he cruises, scooches or crawls, that is where I sit and
and play with him (and whoever else tends to join, since usually one of
the big sisters will join in wherever we are) and organize whatever
stuff is in that area while we play. Sometimes the area ends up
messier than when we started, since everyone gets interested in what
there is to play with, but like someone said, that's what you clean up
for anyway, so that they can have their things available to play with
again.
Again, we don't have chores, and while I will ask the girls to help
occasionally, I feel that they absorb a lot by example; if I can manage
our environment in a way that does not feel stressful, they will
hopefully also learn to manage their own environment in a healthy and
happy way.
Kelly in Chicago (who enjoyed seeing Sandra at our conference last
year!)
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/16/2005 7:23:30 AM Central Standard Time,
kashultz@... writes:
3. Scooch and Clean - Basically what I have been doing lately is
following the baby around the house (in addition to number 2 above),
and wherever he cruises, scooches or crawls, that is where I sit and
and play with him (and whoever else tends to join, since usually one of
the big sisters will join in wherever we are) and organize whatever
stuff is in that area while we play. Sometimes the area ends up
messier than when we started, since everyone gets interested in what
there is to play with, but like someone said, that's what you clean up
for anyway, so that they can have their things available to play with
again.
~~~
This is a great idea. I've always wondered how to describe it. You're
simply being present with your children, maybe getting something done at the same
time, and interacting with them as need be. This is what I want to tell the
people who have littles that fight each other all the time. Sit down on the
floor where they are. Be there next to them. Just be present.
Your whole post was good. Thanks.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kashultz@... writes:
3. Scooch and Clean - Basically what I have been doing lately is
following the baby around the house (in addition to number 2 above),
and wherever he cruises, scooches or crawls, that is where I sit and
and play with him (and whoever else tends to join, since usually one of
the big sisters will join in wherever we are) and organize whatever
stuff is in that area while we play. Sometimes the area ends up
messier than when we started, since everyone gets interested in what
there is to play with, but like someone said, that's what you clean up
for anyway, so that they can have their things available to play with
again.
~~~
This is a great idea. I've always wondered how to describe it. You're
simply being present with your children, maybe getting something done at the same
time, and interacting with them as need be. This is what I want to tell the
people who have littles that fight each other all the time. Sit down on the
floor where they are. Be there next to them. Just be present.
Your whole post was good. Thanks.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi Crane
Funny you should bring this up. Until the beginning of June, I had the kids
on a rotating dish schedule. Three kids, so that each kid got to do dishes
every third day. (regardless of whose day it was, I did the dishes at least
once every day, simply because I would want them out of my way to do
something in the itsy bitsy kitchen. which is to say, no one had to do a
whole entire day's worth. But they were on a schedule)
Hm. Funny thing. None of them ever did the dishes voluntarily for either
their sibs, or me. None of them ever did other chores on their own
initiative, though all of them are good about pitching in when it's pick up
time...YOU know, when the clutter gets freaky and it's JUST TIME to pick
up...
Well, about the beginning of June I noticed, though the dishes were getting
done, other things like wiping off the countertops or stove top, or sweeping
the floor, were neglected. I never asked them to do those things, that's not
the point. The point is, though the dishes were getting done, the kitchen
wasn't getting cleaned. And so, I took over "the dishes" entirely, and the
kitchen got cleaned every day, and I was happy. I did tell the kids "I'm
taking over everyone's dishes. If you see other things that need doing,
please feel free to do them." but didn't hand out any other chores or
schedule them for anything. And, they didn't take on any new chores! LOL
silly me.
So, I kept up with the kitchen, and picked up "the big chunks" around the
house, without comment, keeping in mind the FlyLady mantra "Even housework
done imperfectly, blesses the family." And last night, I went to bed with
dirty dishes in the sink, a cluttered front room, and three alert,
wide-awake kids. In fact, the 12 and the 10 year olds told me they were
going to clean their rooms. I asked them to keep it as quiet as possible,
and went to sleep.
When I got up this morning: the dishes are done! the front room is picked
up! and the laundry has been advanced by two loads! including folding! What
a blessing. I didn't ask anyone to do any of it, though I did point out the
dishes to my oldest, who took her nose out of her costume mending long
enough to say "g'night." All that's left for me to do is bathrooms, and
clearing off the table, and sweep the floors. Isn't that COOL? :) Cool kids,
mine.
blessings, HeidiC
on a rotating dish schedule. Three kids, so that each kid got to do dishes
every third day. (regardless of whose day it was, I did the dishes at least
once every day, simply because I would want them out of my way to do
something in the itsy bitsy kitchen. which is to say, no one had to do a
whole entire day's worth. But they were on a schedule)
Hm. Funny thing. None of them ever did the dishes voluntarily for either
their sibs, or me. None of them ever did other chores on their own
initiative, though all of them are good about pitching in when it's pick up
time...YOU know, when the clutter gets freaky and it's JUST TIME to pick
up...
Well, about the beginning of June I noticed, though the dishes were getting
done, other things like wiping off the countertops or stove top, or sweeping
the floor, were neglected. I never asked them to do those things, that's not
the point. The point is, though the dishes were getting done, the kitchen
wasn't getting cleaned. And so, I took over "the dishes" entirely, and the
kitchen got cleaned every day, and I was happy. I did tell the kids "I'm
taking over everyone's dishes. If you see other things that need doing,
please feel free to do them." but didn't hand out any other chores or
schedule them for anything. And, they didn't take on any new chores! LOL
silly me.
So, I kept up with the kitchen, and picked up "the big chunks" around the
house, without comment, keeping in mind the FlyLady mantra "Even housework
done imperfectly, blesses the family." And last night, I went to bed with
dirty dishes in the sink, a cluttered front room, and three alert,
wide-awake kids. In fact, the 12 and the 10 year olds told me they were
going to clean their rooms. I asked them to keep it as quiet as possible,
and went to sleep.
When I got up this morning: the dishes are done! the front room is picked
up! and the laundry has been advanced by two loads! including folding! What
a blessing. I didn't ask anyone to do any of it, though I did point out the
dishes to my oldest, who took her nose out of her costume mending long
enough to say "g'night." All that's left for me to do is bathrooms, and
clearing off the table, and sweep the floors. Isn't that COOL? :) Cool kids,
mine.
blessings, HeidiC
>
>Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:17:53 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...
>Subject: Re: chores and resentment
>
>
>In a message dated 5/19/05 7:00:34 PM, sandrewmama@... writes:
>
><< . I've noticed that I am having
>difficulty not feeling resentful at the lack of help I'm getting
>around the house. We're relatively new to this RU thing, maybe 6
>months into it.
>. . .
>I'm just not sure what is a good way to handle this situation.
>Mostly, I try taking deep breaths and finding the joy in doing the
>housekeeping tasks while my kids are happily occupied with their
>interests. >>
>
>Chris, how is this going?
>Any better?
>
>This was in my "follow up" pile, and I've been thinking sometimes lately
>about childless friends I have (several were over last night and stirred
>this back
>up in my mind) and how they have housework too, but no kids to blame it on.
>And how some families consider it virtue to make their kids do LOTS and
>scads
>of the work the parents would have had even if they hadn't had kids.
>
>Anyone been having any new thoughts or successes or fears?
>
>Sandra