Hello-respectfully here:)
blkbrdgodss
Hi!
I am Sami, mom to four great kids in Maryland. We are technically
relaxed classical homeschoolers. I originally decided to check out this
group for ideas for an "unschooling summer", but instead, I am here
being amazed and intrigued by your posts.
I have to be honest, I have read much about unschooling, but never to
the depths I am reading here. The philosophy is rarely backed up with
the insights and beliefs I am reading here, and I am impressed.
Many "unschoolers" that I have encountered didn't seem to have a real
philosophy, and their lives mostly resembled chaos-and many of the
children were obviously in need of boundries and structure. I don't
find that mentality here and like I said, I am impressed with what I am
reading.
I have a website-http://www.homegrownkidz.com and I have been adding
pieces about each of the methods one by one. I am so glad I discovered
all of you, before starting a piece on unschooling. You have opened my
eyes:)
I hope that you don't mind my learning from you:)
Sami
I am Sami, mom to four great kids in Maryland. We are technically
relaxed classical homeschoolers. I originally decided to check out this
group for ideas for an "unschooling summer", but instead, I am here
being amazed and intrigued by your posts.
I have to be honest, I have read much about unschooling, but never to
the depths I am reading here. The philosophy is rarely backed up with
the insights and beliefs I am reading here, and I am impressed.
Many "unschoolers" that I have encountered didn't seem to have a real
philosophy, and their lives mostly resembled chaos-and many of the
children were obviously in need of boundries and structure. I don't
find that mentality here and like I said, I am impressed with what I am
reading.
I have a website-http://www.homegrownkidz.com and I have been adding
pieces about each of the methods one by one. I am so glad I discovered
all of you, before starting a piece on unschooling. You have opened my
eyes:)
I hope that you don't mind my learning from you:)
Sami
Robyn Coburn
<<<<< Many "unschoolers" that I have encountered didn't seem to have a real
philosophy, and their lives mostly resembled chaos-and many of the
children were obviously in need of boundries and structure.>>>>>
I too have experience meeting families who call themselves "unschoolers" but
are either unfamiliar with or have actively rejected the kind of absolute
Trust based Unschooling that we talk about here. They will often describe
themselves as "taking an unschooling approach". However, in contrast to
their lives resembling chaos, the reason I personally do not consider that
they are actually living an unschooling life is because of their very
clearly expressed educational/time structures and varyingly authoritarian
parenting approaches. Lots of "limits" enforced. This includes things like
"we only do our curriculum in the mornings" and "I insist she keep her hair
cut short because she wouldn't brush it often enough", let alone "We got rid
of our tv because my daughter wanted to watch it too much". Basically no
evidence of the chaotic *appearance* that freedom can create!
What leads an observer to judge that children in another family are in need
of boundaries and structure? What criteria does one use to say "obviously"?
Is it behavior or how they treat each other or ways of speaking or physical
appearance or prioritizing with time or kids crying or kids wanting to spend
time away from their own homes or...what? I don't see families with children
begging for limits or rules (as far as I know), so I'm not sure how to
recognize that. (Could be a paradox here...)
I am absolutely sure that many a casual observer would consider our RU life
one of utter chaos - certainly the state of our too-small-for-our-stuff
apartment could give that impression. I am privately convinced that several
of the members of my local h/s group consider Jayn in need of "boundaries"
simply because I don't insist that she brush her hair, let alone the fact
that we never do anything remotely resembling a lesson. Some have expressed
their expectation that I will change my ideas (deeply held convictions)
about schooling and magically become more controlling by the time Jayn gets
to be "in 8th grade", displaying only their own lack of understanding of how
RU works. Some would consider our life chaotic because of our rotating sleep
schedule. People are constantly saying to me "I don't know how you do it".
My priority is facilitating Jayn's general happiness. Not her personal
development or her education or her ability to make a success of her adult
life. All these things will happen perfectly well without being my first
focus. The occasions when her physical safety or health and her immediate
happiness are opposing are extremely rare. The occasions where her happiness
opposes the comfort or happiness of another person are also rare, and at
those times we work it out as needed. I just want her to enjoy her life -
her family, activities, friends, increasing competences and broadening
skills.
Some people would define chaos as the absence of a plan, and I know there
are Unschooling kids who find knowing the plan for the day essential to
their comfort and security. My experience with Jayn is that plans beyond the
immediate future or very broad or general (eg: Tuesday is dance class day
and then we'll probably go to the park until whenever tbd; Thursday is
laundry day unless something cool comes up) often collapse. The dissolution
of a plan is more painful if I have become attached to it or to my desired
outcome. You know: "The best laid plans of mice and men...." Can this appear
chaotic to outsiders? I bet it does.
For Jayn and I, it is less stressful to say we value flexibility,
spontaneity and improvisation - and practice Acceptance - rather than
express it negatively as "being disorganized".
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 5/17/2005
philosophy, and their lives mostly resembled chaos-and many of the
children were obviously in need of boundries and structure.>>>>>
I too have experience meeting families who call themselves "unschoolers" but
are either unfamiliar with or have actively rejected the kind of absolute
Trust based Unschooling that we talk about here. They will often describe
themselves as "taking an unschooling approach". However, in contrast to
their lives resembling chaos, the reason I personally do not consider that
they are actually living an unschooling life is because of their very
clearly expressed educational/time structures and varyingly authoritarian
parenting approaches. Lots of "limits" enforced. This includes things like
"we only do our curriculum in the mornings" and "I insist she keep her hair
cut short because she wouldn't brush it often enough", let alone "We got rid
of our tv because my daughter wanted to watch it too much". Basically no
evidence of the chaotic *appearance* that freedom can create!
What leads an observer to judge that children in another family are in need
of boundaries and structure? What criteria does one use to say "obviously"?
Is it behavior or how they treat each other or ways of speaking or physical
appearance or prioritizing with time or kids crying or kids wanting to spend
time away from their own homes or...what? I don't see families with children
begging for limits or rules (as far as I know), so I'm not sure how to
recognize that. (Could be a paradox here...)
I am absolutely sure that many a casual observer would consider our RU life
one of utter chaos - certainly the state of our too-small-for-our-stuff
apartment could give that impression. I am privately convinced that several
of the members of my local h/s group consider Jayn in need of "boundaries"
simply because I don't insist that she brush her hair, let alone the fact
that we never do anything remotely resembling a lesson. Some have expressed
their expectation that I will change my ideas (deeply held convictions)
about schooling and magically become more controlling by the time Jayn gets
to be "in 8th grade", displaying only their own lack of understanding of how
RU works. Some would consider our life chaotic because of our rotating sleep
schedule. People are constantly saying to me "I don't know how you do it".
My priority is facilitating Jayn's general happiness. Not her personal
development or her education or her ability to make a success of her adult
life. All these things will happen perfectly well without being my first
focus. The occasions when her physical safety or health and her immediate
happiness are opposing are extremely rare. The occasions where her happiness
opposes the comfort or happiness of another person are also rare, and at
those times we work it out as needed. I just want her to enjoy her life -
her family, activities, friends, increasing competences and broadening
skills.
Some people would define chaos as the absence of a plan, and I know there
are Unschooling kids who find knowing the plan for the day essential to
their comfort and security. My experience with Jayn is that plans beyond the
immediate future or very broad or general (eg: Tuesday is dance class day
and then we'll probably go to the park until whenever tbd; Thursday is
laundry day unless something cool comes up) often collapse. The dissolution
of a plan is more painful if I have become attached to it or to my desired
outcome. You know: "The best laid plans of mice and men...." Can this appear
chaotic to outsiders? I bet it does.
For Jayn and I, it is less stressful to say we value flexibility,
spontaneity and improvisation - and practice Acceptance - rather than
express it negatively as "being disorganized".
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 5/17/2005
[email protected]
<<<<< Many "unschoolers" that I have encountered didn't seem to have a real
philosophy, and their lives mostly resembled chaos-and many of the
children were obviously in need of boundries and structure.>>>>>
I've met self-proclaimed unschoolers who didn't seem to have any philosophy,
and were just letting their kids run wild, in the bad sense of the word--not
providing fun opportunities, not feeding them, not making sure they had
clothes they liked that were also clean and in good repair. And if someone wants
to be neglectful, and sees out of the corner of her eye some family where
the kids are running HAPPILY and wildly free, but can go back to their parents
whenever they want to for good, direct attention, real food, water,
sunscreen, sympathy, and then they say "That's what I'm doing; I'm an unschooler too,"
when they didn't even BRING water or sunscreen and if their kids come by the
mom manages to just kind of hold them back with hands or gestures while she
doesn't even look at them or interrupt the conversation she's having with
other moms.
I've never seen one of those families really see it through, though, and not
just put their kids in school because they decide unschooling didn't work.
If the moms are saying "unschooling" as a cover for not really getting it
and not wanting to make it work fully and deeply and profoundly, it does make
dedicated, mindful unschoolers as a group look bad, when we have to share in
their reputation.
I've seen kids who needed boundaries and structure, I thought, as evidenced
by their crazed destructive disrespect for other people's things, time, space
and sensibilities. They weren't my kids.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
philosophy, and their lives mostly resembled chaos-and many of the
children were obviously in need of boundries and structure.>>>>>
I've met self-proclaimed unschoolers who didn't seem to have any philosophy,
and were just letting their kids run wild, in the bad sense of the word--not
providing fun opportunities, not feeding them, not making sure they had
clothes they liked that were also clean and in good repair. And if someone wants
to be neglectful, and sees out of the corner of her eye some family where
the kids are running HAPPILY and wildly free, but can go back to their parents
whenever they want to for good, direct attention, real food, water,
sunscreen, sympathy, and then they say "That's what I'm doing; I'm an unschooler too,"
when they didn't even BRING water or sunscreen and if their kids come by the
mom manages to just kind of hold them back with hands or gestures while she
doesn't even look at them or interrupt the conversation she's having with
other moms.
I've never seen one of those families really see it through, though, and not
just put their kids in school because they decide unschooling didn't work.
If the moms are saying "unschooling" as a cover for not really getting it
and not wanting to make it work fully and deeply and profoundly, it does make
dedicated, mindful unschoolers as a group look bad, when we have to share in
their reputation.
I've seen kids who needed boundaries and structure, I thought, as evidenced
by their crazed destructive disrespect for other people's things, time, space
and sensibilities. They weren't my kids.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/18/2005 8:49:22 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
homegrownkidz@... writes:
-=-I have a website-http://www.homegrownkidz.com and I have been adding
pieces about each of the methods one by one. I am so glad I discovered
all of you, before starting a piece on unschooling.-=-
I'm glad too!! <g>
-=-I hope that you don't mind my learning from you:)-=-
If our stories and ideas make you think and you're interested and it
changes what you believe or do, that kind of learning can't be helped. That's the
whole idea behind unschooling. But you won't be learning from us so much as
building onto your personal internal model of the universe. All that
learning happens inside you and can't happen anywhere else, and nobody else can do
it for you or to you.
There are other unschoolers who think this edge goes too far. There are
some other lists with the same philosophy as this one, I think:
UnschoolingBasics, AlwaysUnschooled. Those and some others are linked here:
_http://sandradodd.com/lists/other_ (http://sandradodd.com/lists/other)
If you're interested in the philosophy under the perhaps-seemingly-weird
practices, here are some places that should have links to other places:
_http://sandradodd.com/rules_ (http://sandradodd.com/rules)
_http://sandradodd.com/choice_ (http://sandradodd.com/choice)
_http://sandradodd.com/life_ (http://sandradodd.com/life)
_http://sandradodd.com/chore/option_ (http://sandradodd.com/chore/option)
_http://sandradodd.com/balance_ (http://sandradodd.com/balance)
_http://sandradodd.com/respect_ (http://sandradodd.com/respect)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
homegrownkidz@... writes:
-=-I have a website-http://www.homegrownkidz.com and I have been adding
pieces about each of the methods one by one. I am so glad I discovered
all of you, before starting a piece on unschooling.-=-
I'm glad too!! <g>
-=-I hope that you don't mind my learning from you:)-=-
If our stories and ideas make you think and you're interested and it
changes what you believe or do, that kind of learning can't be helped. That's the
whole idea behind unschooling. But you won't be learning from us so much as
building onto your personal internal model of the universe. All that
learning happens inside you and can't happen anywhere else, and nobody else can do
it for you or to you.
There are other unschoolers who think this edge goes too far. There are
some other lists with the same philosophy as this one, I think:
UnschoolingBasics, AlwaysUnschooled. Those and some others are linked here:
_http://sandradodd.com/lists/other_ (http://sandradodd.com/lists/other)
If you're interested in the philosophy under the perhaps-seemingly-weird
practices, here are some places that should have links to other places:
_http://sandradodd.com/rules_ (http://sandradodd.com/rules)
_http://sandradodd.com/choice_ (http://sandradodd.com/choice)
_http://sandradodd.com/life_ (http://sandradodd.com/life)
_http://sandradodd.com/chore/option_ (http://sandradodd.com/chore/option)
_http://sandradodd.com/balance_ (http://sandradodd.com/balance)
_http://sandradodd.com/respect_ (http://sandradodd.com/respect)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
blkbrdgodss
> <<<<< Many "unschoolers" that I have encountered didn't seem tohave a real
> philosophy, and their lives mostly resembled chaos-and many of theAgain, I don't mean to offend anyone here:) Like I said, I am amazed
> children were obviously in need of boundries and structure.>>>>>
to find your posts so full of concern and insight. I have known
several unschooling moms who simply pulled the children out of school
and set them in front of SpongeBob and had a seat at the computer or
on the phone until bedtime.
This is rare in my area-most homeschoolers here are strict
fundalmentists with very exact religious beliefs. This group of
people hold their children sooo tight, the kids can't walk six feet
away without a breakdown of the thought process. They have no TV,
don't know any current news, people, or events. Several people have
pulled their children away from mine because my daughter dresses a
little "Kelly Osbornish":). I then encountered "unschoolers" note the
quotations...The ones I have encountered had their children on
several medications for behavior issues, feed their children nothing
but easy to prep junk (full of things that would CAUSE behavior
issues for many children) and spent almost NO time at all with their
children-and bragged about it.
I may be completely wrong, and please don't be afraid to yell at me
if I am...If the children are fighting for the parents attention,
eating all meals in front of the TV even though they don't seem to
want it that way, not able to speak a sentence at five, or have a
decent conversation at 9, they aren't being schooled or unschooled,
but neglected. Unfortunately, that is what I have experienced, too
often, in my neck of the woods. This is truely sad because
Unschooling seems to have much much more merrit then these people are
presenting.
I had a little girl come to my house one day and tell me that since
she starting homeschooling she never saw her mom. She said her mom
would talk to her on the way to school and home, each day. Now, she
said, all her mom did was watch tv and talk on the phone. (again,
not "unschooling" but "unparenting".) She told my daughter she wished
for a mom like me-which, of course, made my daughter's head spin:)
I truely "get" the things that you write here, and I am really glad
to have discovered all of this. I give TONS of advice to new
homeschooler, and I always want to presents things correctly.
Describing "unschooling" from now on, from YOUR point of view, will
surely help many people.
Bottom line is this-It doesn't matter how you homeschool-raise your
kids-as long as you are actually doing it with thought and love and
sense:)
Again, I thank you all for opening my mind, and I will continue to
learn by reading your posts:)
Sami
http://www.homegrownkidz.com
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: blkbrdgodss <homegrownkidz@...>
Like I said, I am amazed
to find your posts so full of concern and insight.
-=-=-=-=-
I'm kind of sorry you're that amazed! Maybe one day we'll be
mainstream! <g>
-=-=-=-=-
I have known
several unschooling moms who simply pulled the children out of school
and set them in front of SpongeBob and had a seat at the computer or
on the phone until bedtime.
-=-=-=-=-
I know a few like that too. It's NOT unschooling. It's neglect. Benign
neglect, maybe---but not what *I* think unschooling is. And certainly
not what *I* am doing.
-=-=-=-=-
This is rare in my area-most homeschoolers here are strict
fundalmentists with very exact religious beliefs. This group of
people hold their children sooo tight, the kids can't walk six feet
away without a breakdown of the thought process. They have no TV,
don't know any current news, people, or events. Several people have
pulled their children away from mine because my daughter dresses a
little "Kelly Osbornish":).
-=-=-=-=-=-
These are common everywhere it seems. In my area---known as Bob Jones
Country (SC)---unschoolers are definitely the minority. But we don't
associate with them, so they aren't a part of our lives.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I then encountered "unschoolers" note the
quotations...The ones I have encountered had their children on
several medications for behavior issues, feed their children nothing
but easy to prep junk (full of things that would CAUSE behavior
issues for many children) and spent almost NO time at all with their
children-and bragged about it.
I may be completely wrong, and please don't be afraid to yell at me
if I am...If the children are fighting for the parents attention,
eating all meals in front of the TV even though they don't seem to
want it that way, not able to speak a sentence at five, or have a
decent conversation at 9, they aren't being schooled or unschooled,
but neglected. Unfortunately, that is what I have experienced, too
often, in my neck of the woods.
-=-=-=-=-
We have a few of these too. I just wish they would not use the term.
But there's nothing I can do about that---other than write here and on
the other lists regularly and help unschoolers meet up at the
conference.
-=-=-=-=-
This is truely sad because Unschooling seems to have much much more
merrit then these people are presenting.
-===-=-=-
Unschooling is incredible---and not just for the child(ren). The whoile
family can benefit--as well as friends and extended family and
strangers....if they can get their heads around the philosophy.
-=-=-=-
I truely "get" the things that you write here, and I am really glad
to have discovered all of this.
-=-=-=-=-
Well, maybe you'll convert! <g> Every new unschooler makes the world a
more joyful, peaceful place! <g>
-=-=-=-=-
I give TONS of advice to new
homeschooler, and I always want to presents things correctly.
Describing "unschooling" from now on, from YOUR point of view, will
surely help many people.
-=-=-=-=
Super! Send 'em here and unschoolingbasics, alwaysunschooled, and
www.unschooling.info/forum
-=-=-=-=-
Bottom line is this-It doesn't matter how you homeschool-raise your
kids-as long as you are actually doing it with thought and love and
sense:)
-=-=-=-
I disagree with this! Many of those parents you described above DO
think they are "actually doing it with thought and love and sense." It
takes a lot more than that! <g>
-=-=-=-=-
Again, I thank you all for opening my mind, and I will continue to
learn by reading your posts:)
-=-=-=-==-
Cool.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: blkbrdgodss <homegrownkidz@...>
Like I said, I am amazed
to find your posts so full of concern and insight.
-=-=-=-=-
I'm kind of sorry you're that amazed! Maybe one day we'll be
mainstream! <g>
-=-=-=-=-
I have known
several unschooling moms who simply pulled the children out of school
and set them in front of SpongeBob and had a seat at the computer or
on the phone until bedtime.
-=-=-=-=-
I know a few like that too. It's NOT unschooling. It's neglect. Benign
neglect, maybe---but not what *I* think unschooling is. And certainly
not what *I* am doing.
-=-=-=-=-
This is rare in my area-most homeschoolers here are strict
fundalmentists with very exact religious beliefs. This group of
people hold their children sooo tight, the kids can't walk six feet
away without a breakdown of the thought process. They have no TV,
don't know any current news, people, or events. Several people have
pulled their children away from mine because my daughter dresses a
little "Kelly Osbornish":).
-=-=-=-=-=-
These are common everywhere it seems. In my area---known as Bob Jones
Country (SC)---unschoolers are definitely the minority. But we don't
associate with them, so they aren't a part of our lives.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I then encountered "unschoolers" note the
quotations...The ones I have encountered had their children on
several medications for behavior issues, feed their children nothing
but easy to prep junk (full of things that would CAUSE behavior
issues for many children) and spent almost NO time at all with their
children-and bragged about it.
I may be completely wrong, and please don't be afraid to yell at me
if I am...If the children are fighting for the parents attention,
eating all meals in front of the TV even though they don't seem to
want it that way, not able to speak a sentence at five, or have a
decent conversation at 9, they aren't being schooled or unschooled,
but neglected. Unfortunately, that is what I have experienced, too
often, in my neck of the woods.
-=-=-=-=-
We have a few of these too. I just wish they would not use the term.
But there's nothing I can do about that---other than write here and on
the other lists regularly and help unschoolers meet up at the
conference.
-=-=-=-=-
This is truely sad because Unschooling seems to have much much more
merrit then these people are presenting.
-===-=-=-
Unschooling is incredible---and not just for the child(ren). The whoile
family can benefit--as well as friends and extended family and
strangers....if they can get their heads around the philosophy.
-=-=-=-
I truely "get" the things that you write here, and I am really glad
to have discovered all of this.
-=-=-=-=-
Well, maybe you'll convert! <g> Every new unschooler makes the world a
more joyful, peaceful place! <g>
-=-=-=-=-
I give TONS of advice to new
homeschooler, and I always want to presents things correctly.
Describing "unschooling" from now on, from YOUR point of view, will
surely help many people.
-=-=-=-=
Super! Send 'em here and unschoolingbasics, alwaysunschooled, and
www.unschooling.info/forum
-=-=-=-=-
Bottom line is this-It doesn't matter how you homeschool-raise your
kids-as long as you are actually doing it with thought and love and
sense:)
-=-=-=-
I disagree with this! Many of those parents you described above DO
think they are "actually doing it with thought and love and sense." It
takes a lot more than that! <g>
-=-=-=-=-
Again, I thank you all for opening my mind, and I will continue to
learn by reading your posts:)
-=-=-=-==-
Cool.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/19/2005 2:24:06 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
homegrownkidz@... writes:
Describing "unschooling" from now on, from YOUR point of view, will
surely help many people
===========
It might help those lax-to-neglectful families you know, too, if you ask
them why they're not being with their kids more, getting out more, having more
fun stuff to do at home.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
homegrownkidz@... writes:
Describing "unschooling" from now on, from YOUR point of view, will
surely help many people
===========
It might help those lax-to-neglectful families you know, too, if you ask
them why they're not being with their kids more, getting out more, having more
fun stuff to do at home.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
*Bottom line is this-It doesn't matter how you homeschool-raise your
kids-as long as you are actually doing it with thought and love and
sense:)
-=-=-=-
**I disagree with this! Many of those parents you described above DO
think they are "actually doing it with thought and love and sense." It
takes a lot more than that! <g>
-----------------------------------------------
I agree with Kelly. (Or way... do I DISagree? "with Kelly, I disagree"?)
People who ground their kids and make them work all the time they're not
"doing schoolwork" and who spank them think they're being loving and sensible.
I question the "thoughtful," but they would say thoughtful, probably.
Their results are not better. They gamble their relationship with the child
and often lose it, and their results are not better than mine, which to them
would SURELY look neglectful. The other night my teenaged boys both got
back really (really) late, Marty (16) at 3:00 or so (he was outside talking to
his friends, both also homeschoolers and came in at 3:00) and Kirby closer to
5:00 a.m. I was up because I couldn't sleep. I wasn't afraid or angry.
They hadn't been doing anything wrong, illegal or dangerous. They were with
people we know and were in safe places. Marty and his friends had gone to the
rock house (a little hike in the mountains here) and Kirby was at a friend's
house after the gaming shop closed. They had watched a movie and then played
a game, and it kept getting later.
I could have had a bedtime and a curfew.
If the principle is to know where kids are and to know they're safe, though,
I have that. And right now Kirby is in his room playing an XBox game with
his friend Joey (who paid for the game but doesn't own an XBox. Marty is at
work and will be home in an hour or so. Holly is asleep in Charmouth, in
southern England, but I talked to her for nearly an hour earlier today.
Living without rules, living by principle, can look neglectful to those who
have been told and are passing on the "truths" to their kids, that rules keep
people safe and happy. That's not true. Marty did well at a junior police
academy summer before last. One of the instructors was GUSHING to me about
how much they admired and enjoyed Marty. He said you could always tell when a
kid comes from a home with a lot of rules and discipline.
No, he couldn't.
He was unable to recognize (or even to imagine, I bet) that something that
impressive could be the product of no rules, no discipline, but living by
principles, as directly and lovingly together as we could. Being with them,
more BEing than "with."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kids-as long as you are actually doing it with thought and love and
sense:)
-=-=-=-
**I disagree with this! Many of those parents you described above DO
think they are "actually doing it with thought and love and sense." It
takes a lot more than that! <g>
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I agree with Kelly. (Or way... do I DISagree? "with Kelly, I disagree"?)
People who ground their kids and make them work all the time they're not
"doing schoolwork" and who spank them think they're being loving and sensible.
I question the "thoughtful," but they would say thoughtful, probably.
Their results are not better. They gamble their relationship with the child
and often lose it, and their results are not better than mine, which to them
would SURELY look neglectful. The other night my teenaged boys both got
back really (really) late, Marty (16) at 3:00 or so (he was outside talking to
his friends, both also homeschoolers and came in at 3:00) and Kirby closer to
5:00 a.m. I was up because I couldn't sleep. I wasn't afraid or angry.
They hadn't been doing anything wrong, illegal or dangerous. They were with
people we know and were in safe places. Marty and his friends had gone to the
rock house (a little hike in the mountains here) and Kirby was at a friend's
house after the gaming shop closed. They had watched a movie and then played
a game, and it kept getting later.
I could have had a bedtime and a curfew.
If the principle is to know where kids are and to know they're safe, though,
I have that. And right now Kirby is in his room playing an XBox game with
his friend Joey (who paid for the game but doesn't own an XBox. Marty is at
work and will be home in an hour or so. Holly is asleep in Charmouth, in
southern England, but I talked to her for nearly an hour earlier today.
Living without rules, living by principle, can look neglectful to those who
have been told and are passing on the "truths" to their kids, that rules keep
people safe and happy. That's not true. Marty did well at a junior police
academy summer before last. One of the instructors was GUSHING to me about
how much they admired and enjoyed Marty. He said you could always tell when a
kid comes from a home with a lot of rules and discipline.
No, he couldn't.
He was unable to recognize (or even to imagine, I bet) that something that
impressive could be the product of no rules, no discipline, but living by
principles, as directly and lovingly together as we could. Being with them,
more BEing than "with."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**
This is rare in my area-most homeschoolers here are strict
fundalmentists with very exact religious beliefs. This group of
people hold their children sooo tight, the kids can't walk six feet
away without a breakdown of the thought process. **
Compared to this, benign neglect has some good points. (Even though benign neglect is not unschooling.)
Betsy
This is rare in my area-most homeschoolers here are strict
fundalmentists with very exact religious beliefs. This group of
people hold their children sooo tight, the kids can't walk six feet
away without a breakdown of the thought process. **
Compared to this, benign neglect has some good points. (Even though benign neglect is not unschooling.)
Betsy