priorities (thanks, Schuyler)
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/18/2005 4:19:47 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
s.waynforth@... writes:
If your priority is perfectly behaved children who read at an early
age and who impress your friends and family with their knowledge and
deportment, you may find unschooling a hard path to follow (not that
any other method will necessarily get you these things).
=================
In such a case, though the mom could say "At least I tried," and look down
at us, the slackers.<G> There's a cost to pressing children to do things
early and better and perfectly, though, and that comes straight off the top of
the relationship between parent and child.
It's 5:00 in the morning in Albuquerque. I got up at 4:30, having been
awake an hour. I started bread, made tea, changed out the dishwasher, started
washing the stove parts, and Kirby (18) came in (in Bart Simpson boxer shorts).
"You couldn't sleep?"
"No. Sorry if I woke you up."
"I was still up."
"If you're up when Keith comes through, he wants to talk to you about the
dash lights on the van. Were they out Saturday night when we went to Pirates
of Penzance?" (He drove one van and I drove the other as we had more attendees
than would fit in either one.)
"Dim. They've always been dim, though. I thought that's just how the van
was."
"Leif is camping out tonight at Century Rio [a theatre] with his boss to get
tickets for Star Wars."
"But it's..."
"Yeah, it's tomorrow night at midnight."
"Cameron called to ask where you're going to see Star Wars. Marty and I
didn't know."
"Cottonwood. Michelle got free tickets."
"Oh, right. I remember you told me that. If Cameron calls I'll tell him
you're unavailable to assist him."
"Okay, thanks."
So he went to bed, and I came to sit and drink tea.
I KNOW that whole conversation could have gone differently. I could have
been grouchy that he was still up at nearly 5:00 a.m. Some moms might've been
uncomfortable (or worse) at an 18 year old appearing in his underwear with no
self consciousness. He didn't ask to go to the movies (though he did tell
me weeks ago).
My priority is to help him live at peace in his own home, and letting him
know that I care about him and his comfort is part of that.
Cameron is younger than Kirby and often tags along. He got a job two days
ago and is feeling older and bigger, and has recently started to drive.
Michelle is in her 20's and Kirby knows her from the Anime club. Her
boyfriend works early and doesn't want to go to a midnight showing of Star Wars, so
she's taking Kirby with the complimentary tickets she got working at Suncoast
Video.
Kirby was out late at a friend's house helping him prepare for an L5R
tournament he's running this coming weekend. The friend is 30 or older, has a wife
and two children, very organized and responsible, and his assistant of
choice was Kirby.
And about that reading... Kirby was reading aloud the other night from a
gaming manual to that big batch of guys who went to see Pirates of Penzance
with us. Kirby and Marty really wanted to go to the play. As things turned
out, three unexpected others went with us. That was fine. They went because
they were involved in a role playing game, and wanted to continue it later, and
because they trust Kirby and Marty's judgement about what's cool. They had
fun, and came back and played several hours longer afterward. But Kirby, one
of the youngest of the seven there, and one of the "least educated," was
reading difficult material aloud to attentive others, one of whom (Leif, who's
camped in the Star Wars line) has a college degree, one of whom has two years
of college, and none of whom had any reason to say, "Let me read that." He
could've been reading it for taping, or radio. Expressive, clear, no
hesitation.
He's confident in his skin, in his mind, and in his being.
He's not afraid of his parents.
He goes to sleep happy and he wakes up glad.
My priorities could have been different.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
s.waynforth@... writes:
If your priority is perfectly behaved children who read at an early
age and who impress your friends and family with their knowledge and
deportment, you may find unschooling a hard path to follow (not that
any other method will necessarily get you these things).
=================
In such a case, though the mom could say "At least I tried," and look down
at us, the slackers.<G> There's a cost to pressing children to do things
early and better and perfectly, though, and that comes straight off the top of
the relationship between parent and child.
It's 5:00 in the morning in Albuquerque. I got up at 4:30, having been
awake an hour. I started bread, made tea, changed out the dishwasher, started
washing the stove parts, and Kirby (18) came in (in Bart Simpson boxer shorts).
"You couldn't sleep?"
"No. Sorry if I woke you up."
"I was still up."
"If you're up when Keith comes through, he wants to talk to you about the
dash lights on the van. Were they out Saturday night when we went to Pirates
of Penzance?" (He drove one van and I drove the other as we had more attendees
than would fit in either one.)
"Dim. They've always been dim, though. I thought that's just how the van
was."
"Leif is camping out tonight at Century Rio [a theatre] with his boss to get
tickets for Star Wars."
"But it's..."
"Yeah, it's tomorrow night at midnight."
"Cameron called to ask where you're going to see Star Wars. Marty and I
didn't know."
"Cottonwood. Michelle got free tickets."
"Oh, right. I remember you told me that. If Cameron calls I'll tell him
you're unavailable to assist him."
"Okay, thanks."
So he went to bed, and I came to sit and drink tea.
I KNOW that whole conversation could have gone differently. I could have
been grouchy that he was still up at nearly 5:00 a.m. Some moms might've been
uncomfortable (or worse) at an 18 year old appearing in his underwear with no
self consciousness. He didn't ask to go to the movies (though he did tell
me weeks ago).
My priority is to help him live at peace in his own home, and letting him
know that I care about him and his comfort is part of that.
Cameron is younger than Kirby and often tags along. He got a job two days
ago and is feeling older and bigger, and has recently started to drive.
Michelle is in her 20's and Kirby knows her from the Anime club. Her
boyfriend works early and doesn't want to go to a midnight showing of Star Wars, so
she's taking Kirby with the complimentary tickets she got working at Suncoast
Video.
Kirby was out late at a friend's house helping him prepare for an L5R
tournament he's running this coming weekend. The friend is 30 or older, has a wife
and two children, very organized and responsible, and his assistant of
choice was Kirby.
And about that reading... Kirby was reading aloud the other night from a
gaming manual to that big batch of guys who went to see Pirates of Penzance
with us. Kirby and Marty really wanted to go to the play. As things turned
out, three unexpected others went with us. That was fine. They went because
they were involved in a role playing game, and wanted to continue it later, and
because they trust Kirby and Marty's judgement about what's cool. They had
fun, and came back and played several hours longer afterward. But Kirby, one
of the youngest of the seven there, and one of the "least educated," was
reading difficult material aloud to attentive others, one of whom (Leif, who's
camped in the Star Wars line) has a college degree, one of whom has two years
of college, and none of whom had any reason to say, "Let me read that." He
could've been reading it for taping, or radio. Expressive, clear, no
hesitation.
He's confident in his skin, in his mind, and in his being.
He's not afraid of his parents.
He goes to sleep happy and he wakes up glad.
My priorities could have been different.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I went to find a place to put the exchange on priorities, and found a page I
don't think I've ever pressed or announced, though it's on my index.
_http://sandradodd.com/priorities_ (http://sandradodd.com/priorities)
It had a wonderful (as usual) thing by Joyce Fetteroll, in response to
someone's objections about something (involving food). Here's a line that wasn't
addressed directly, though:
"You seem to be saying that the two priorities are mutually exclusive."
Priorities have literally to do with rankings. Two "priorities" can't be
equal, or there is no "priority" (first-in-lineness, precedence). So if they
are to be called "priorities" then I suppose one has to exclude the other at
that point of decision making. But people can have two favorite causes or
missions or concerns, and lots of times the precedence of them won't matter.
When it does, that's when they learn their priorities.
Some people's priority is keeping the neighbors happy or satisfying their
mom's questions. That tends to put the kids way, way down the list, especially
if yardwork and housework and auto care and nice coats and groomed pets are
priorities (being on the real or imagined neighborly or parental checklists).
Sometimes all that's needed to clarify thinking is to look at the words we
use and what they really mean. "Equal priorities" means "no priorities."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
don't think I've ever pressed or announced, though it's on my index.
_http://sandradodd.com/priorities_ (http://sandradodd.com/priorities)
It had a wonderful (as usual) thing by Joyce Fetteroll, in response to
someone's objections about something (involving food). Here's a line that wasn't
addressed directly, though:
"You seem to be saying that the two priorities are mutually exclusive."
Priorities have literally to do with rankings. Two "priorities" can't be
equal, or there is no "priority" (first-in-lineness, precedence). So if they
are to be called "priorities" then I suppose one has to exclude the other at
that point of decision making. But people can have two favorite causes or
missions or concerns, and lots of times the precedence of them won't matter.
When it does, that's when they learn their priorities.
Some people's priority is keeping the neighbors happy or satisfying their
mom's questions. That tends to put the kids way, way down the list, especially
if yardwork and housework and auto care and nice coats and groomed pets are
priorities (being on the real or imagined neighborly or parental checklists).
Sometimes all that's needed to clarify thinking is to look at the words we
use and what they really mean. "Equal priorities" means "no priorities."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/18/2005 6:27:21 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
I started bread, made tea, changed out the dishwasher, started
washing the stove parts, and Kirby (18) came in (in Bart Simpson boxer
shorts).
~~~
You shouldn't have said that. I've never met Kirby, but now I'm always
going to picture him in his boxers!
When my grown boys were still home, it was amazing how skimpily dressed or
naked they were most of the time. When they were ten, they wouldn't even go
in the pool without a shirt.
I was never mad about it. They were glorious.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
I started bread, made tea, changed out the dishwasher, started
washing the stove parts, and Kirby (18) came in (in Bart Simpson boxer
shorts).
~~~
You shouldn't have said that. I've never met Kirby, but now I'm always
going to picture him in his boxers!
When my grown boys were still home, it was amazing how skimpily dressed or
naked they were most of the time. When they were ten, they wouldn't even go
in the pool without a shirt.
I was never mad about it. They were glorious.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/18/2005 7:25:10 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
You shouldn't have said that. I've never met Kirby, but now I'm always
going to picture him in his boxers!
===============
Here he is in a suit:
_http://sandradodd.com/kirby_ (http://sandradodd.com/kirby)
He was laughing, so his eyes are squinted up.
There's Marty, being too photogenic in the back.
I'll change that picture for a Kirby-only when we get a good one.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tuckervill2@... writes:
You shouldn't have said that. I've never met Kirby, but now I'm always
going to picture him in his boxers!
===============
Here he is in a suit:
_http://sandradodd.com/kirby_ (http://sandradodd.com/kirby)
He was laughing, so his eyes are squinted up.
There's Marty, being too photogenic in the back.
I'll change that picture for a Kirby-only when we get a good one.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/18/2005 8:28:21 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Here he is in a suit
~~~
That's better! lol.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Here he is in a suit
~~~
That's better! lol.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela S.
Sandra wrote:
<<He's confident in his skin, in his mind, and in his being.
He's not afraid of his parents.
He goes to sleep happy and he wakes up glad.>>
I could have written the above about either of my children. Life is just so
good here in our little world. We are an introverted family. My girls are
now 8 and 10. It wasn't so many years ago when I decided not to send my
oldest to school that I was hearing concerns from other people (however
gently) about how if I didn't send them to school or somewhere with a lot of
children regularly that they wouldn't be properly socialized. Some people
worried about their natural reserved nature. They were pained to be the
center of attention, especially my older dd. They felt put on the spot if
someone spoke to them. (other than people they were close to)
It has just been so cool to watch them come into their own. I've let them
develop socially at their own pace, and have not pushed them beyond their
comfort level. I often spoke for them when they couldn't bring themselves
to answer someone and despite the fact that I would have loved to brag about
them over the years, they never felt comfortable with me sharing their
successes, so I kept quiet. They felt put of stage if I bragged about
anything they did.
But now they are both comfortable in their own skin. They are confident in
who they are and what they know. They like who they are and their
confidence in relating to others and being the center of attention continues
to grow. They do things for the intrinsic value it brings them, not to
impress others.
They were both recently in a horse show, a dressage show actually, where
they ride alone in front of a judge, riding in a pattern. (with an audience
too) They were confident and calm. I was nervous and over excited. They
went in, rode their pattern, stopped in front of the judge like they were
supposed to, and came out with huge smiles, feeling rewarded for having
competed. The ribbons they won were frosting on the cake, but not the
reason for competing at all. It was so cool! It would have been so hard to
imagine 5 years ago.
One neighbor who was particularly concerned about my children's reserved
nature when they were younger came and watched. She was in awe of their
confidence and calm. Despite my worries sometimes, I just knew deep inside
me that they needed to develop socially on their own schedule. It has been
so cool to watch.
Like Kirby, my girls are confident in their own skin, in their minds, and in
their beings.
They aren't afraid of their parents and they go to sleep happy and wake up
glad.
They have a zest for life and learning that is immeasurable.
Life is grand!
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<He's confident in his skin, in his mind, and in his being.
He's not afraid of his parents.
He goes to sleep happy and he wakes up glad.>>
I could have written the above about either of my children. Life is just so
good here in our little world. We are an introverted family. My girls are
now 8 and 10. It wasn't so many years ago when I decided not to send my
oldest to school that I was hearing concerns from other people (however
gently) about how if I didn't send them to school or somewhere with a lot of
children regularly that they wouldn't be properly socialized. Some people
worried about their natural reserved nature. They were pained to be the
center of attention, especially my older dd. They felt put on the spot if
someone spoke to them. (other than people they were close to)
It has just been so cool to watch them come into their own. I've let them
develop socially at their own pace, and have not pushed them beyond their
comfort level. I often spoke for them when they couldn't bring themselves
to answer someone and despite the fact that I would have loved to brag about
them over the years, they never felt comfortable with me sharing their
successes, so I kept quiet. They felt put of stage if I bragged about
anything they did.
But now they are both comfortable in their own skin. They are confident in
who they are and what they know. They like who they are and their
confidence in relating to others and being the center of attention continues
to grow. They do things for the intrinsic value it brings them, not to
impress others.
They were both recently in a horse show, a dressage show actually, where
they ride alone in front of a judge, riding in a pattern. (with an audience
too) They were confident and calm. I was nervous and over excited. They
went in, rode their pattern, stopped in front of the judge like they were
supposed to, and came out with huge smiles, feeling rewarded for having
competed. The ribbons they won were frosting on the cake, but not the
reason for competing at all. It was so cool! It would have been so hard to
imagine 5 years ago.
One neighbor who was particularly concerned about my children's reserved
nature when they were younger came and watched. She was in awe of their
confidence and calm. Despite my worries sometimes, I just knew deep inside
me that they needed to develop socially on their own schedule. It has been
so cool to watch.
Like Kirby, my girls are confident in their own skin, in their minds, and in
their beings.
They aren't afraid of their parents and they go to sleep happy and wake up
glad.
They have a zest for life and learning that is immeasurable.
Life is grand!
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On May 19, 2005, at 5:21 AM, Angela S. wrote:
social situations - force attention on them - draw attention to them. I
just want to DO something - to shelter those kids - but how to do that
without embarrassing the kids by paying attention to them?
I was very very very shy and reserved - I'd blush bright red if someone
unexpectedly said something to me. The thing that was agony for me was
never knowing when attention would suddenly be on me. If my parents had
shielded me more and if I'd not had to go to school, I just KNOW I'd
have been happier and more comfortable. I remember spending much of my
school day terrified that the teacher was about to notice me or call on
me - sitting there looking down, not making eye contact, my "inside
voice" repeating - "not me not me not me oh pleeeease don't call on
me."
So - big huge kudos from the little girl I was to the moms out there
who protect and shield their children from embarrassment.
-pam
> It wasn't so many years ago when I decided not to send myI feel so bad for kids whose parents force them into uncomfortable
> oldest to school that I was hearing concerns from other people (however
> gently) about how if I didn't send them to school or somewhere with a
> lot of
> children regularly that they wouldn't be properly socialized. Some
> people
> worried about their natural reserved nature. They were pained to be the
> center of attention, especially my older dd.
social situations - force attention on them - draw attention to them. I
just want to DO something - to shelter those kids - but how to do that
without embarrassing the kids by paying attention to them?
I was very very very shy and reserved - I'd blush bright red if someone
unexpectedly said something to me. The thing that was agony for me was
never knowing when attention would suddenly be on me. If my parents had
shielded me more and if I'd not had to go to school, I just KNOW I'd
have been happier and more comfortable. I remember spending much of my
school day terrified that the teacher was about to notice me or call on
me - sitting there looking down, not making eye contact, my "inside
voice" repeating - "not me not me not me oh pleeeease don't call on
me."
So - big huge kudos from the little girl I was to the moms out there
who protect and shield their children from embarrassment.
-pam
Angela S.
<<I was very very very shy and reserved - I'd blush bright red if someone
unexpectedly said something to me. The thing that was agony for me was
never knowing when attention would suddenly be on me >>
Pam,
It was hearing/reading stories like yours, that gave me the understanding
and the conviction to be there to shield and speak for my children, as they
needed it. I am thankful that you and others like you have shared your
stories so that I could learn from them. My older dd is the most reserved
of the two and being my first child I had to learn the hard way not to do
anything to make her the center of attention. She is more like her dad was
as a child. My younger dd is more like me, introverted and not wanting to
be the center of attention, but not quite so pained by it. I didn't fully
understand just how uncomfortable those situations made my older dd, but
somehow I knew in my heart drawing attention to her wasn't going to help her
through those feelings. She just needed time to work through it on her own.
I was talking with some moms the other day about our kids when they were
babies and I mentioned that my babies cried if I vacuumed. (I didn't vacuum
very often because of it and they still hate it and go in the den and shut
the door.) I was saying they both hated loud noises and were easily
overwhelmed by lots of people, etc. Someone who has only known them for
about a year and a half said, "Well, it's obviously not a problem anymore."
It is sometimes neat to hear what other people think about your kids because
you often have this ongoing idea of who they are and when someone sees them
differently you come to realize just how much they have changed.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unexpectedly said something to me. The thing that was agony for me was
never knowing when attention would suddenly be on me >>
Pam,
It was hearing/reading stories like yours, that gave me the understanding
and the conviction to be there to shield and speak for my children, as they
needed it. I am thankful that you and others like you have shared your
stories so that I could learn from them. My older dd is the most reserved
of the two and being my first child I had to learn the hard way not to do
anything to make her the center of attention. She is more like her dad was
as a child. My younger dd is more like me, introverted and not wanting to
be the center of attention, but not quite so pained by it. I didn't fully
understand just how uncomfortable those situations made my older dd, but
somehow I knew in my heart drawing attention to her wasn't going to help her
through those feelings. She just needed time to work through it on her own.
I was talking with some moms the other day about our kids when they were
babies and I mentioned that my babies cried if I vacuumed. (I didn't vacuum
very often because of it and they still hate it and go in the den and shut
the door.) I was saying they both hated loud noises and were easily
overwhelmed by lots of people, etc. Someone who has only known them for
about a year and a half said, "Well, it's obviously not a problem anymore."
It is sometimes neat to hear what other people think about your kids because
you often have this ongoing idea of who they are and when someone sees them
differently you come to realize just how much they have changed.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I always make the offer to speak for my kids if they'd rather, like if we're
going to the dentist, or to an information desk or talking to a store clerk.
Holly still takes me up on it sometimes. Marty USUALLY does. Kirby
prefers his style of interaction to mine. He's much more... used car salesman,
smarmy, pizzazzy, flirty, mushy.
So Holly, who still often will say "You talk, mom," is at HesFes interacting
like CRAZY with lots of people she's never met before. It will be
interesting to see if she's more likely to do her own talking without even glancing
back at me (as Kirby does) when she's home.
Marty is the least outgoing of the kids here, and he will even have me call
his boss sometimes instead of wanting to call himself (we're friends). He
gets flustered when the responsibility for beginning a dialog is on him. He's
not as good at taking phone messages as I wish he were; he just does the
minimum and gets off the phone, unable to answer any questions afterwards, as
though he had frozen up just because someone was talking to him on the phone.
So I'm fine with doing Marty's talking for him, or getting his information for
him, because gradually and steadily he's braver.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
going to the dentist, or to an information desk or talking to a store clerk.
Holly still takes me up on it sometimes. Marty USUALLY does. Kirby
prefers his style of interaction to mine. He's much more... used car salesman,
smarmy, pizzazzy, flirty, mushy.
So Holly, who still often will say "You talk, mom," is at HesFes interacting
like CRAZY with lots of people she's never met before. It will be
interesting to see if she's more likely to do her own talking without even glancing
back at me (as Kirby does) when she's home.
Marty is the least outgoing of the kids here, and he will even have me call
his boss sometimes instead of wanting to call himself (we're friends). He
gets flustered when the responsibility for beginning a dialog is on him. He's
not as good at taking phone messages as I wish he were; he just does the
minimum and gets off the phone, unable to answer any questions afterwards, as
though he had frozen up just because someone was talking to him on the phone.
So I'm fine with doing Marty's talking for him, or getting his information for
him, because gradually and steadily he's braver.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]