Brenda Rose

As Susan frequently mentions, there should be a spew alert on this! I
seldom laugh ou loud, but this had me ROTFLOL. I already notced UU might
not be good when Susan suggested Unconditional Unschoolers (although I like
it). I'm just looking a the initials - the PUs got me laughing, then
thoughts of being mistaken for the other EU - plus I don't need to be
reminded of my weight <G>. And CU -well this reminds me of a recent
exchange on our bathroom blackboard:

I C U
I C U P
I C U 2
U R 2 No-Z

Lively Unschoolers Living Unfettered - then we'd be Real LULUs.

Holy Little Lulu, Robin!
Brenda
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:37 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Digest Number 5298


>
> There are 25 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Re: New to List and a question about Arizona
> From: "Brenda" <lvmydd@...>
> 2. Re: Not really unschoolers
> From: "wifetovegman2002" <wifetovegman2002@...>
> 3. Are you guys sure this is going to work???
> From: "greencow32766" <McGeath3@...>
> 4. Re: Are you guys sure this is going to work???
> From: "soggyboysmom" <debra.rossing@...>
> 5. Re: New to List and a question about Arizona
> From: "soggyboysmom" <debra.rossing@...>
> 6. Re: Not really unschoolers
> From: "cordjax" <cordjax@...>
> 7. Re: Not really unschoolers
> From: "Brenda Rose" <rosebl@...>
> 8. Re: Re: TCS
> From: SandraDodd@...
> 9. Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
> From: SandraDodd@...
> 10. Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
> From: SandraDodd@...
> 11. Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
> From: SandraDodd@...
> 12. Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
> From: "Jason & Stephanie" <thesixofus@...>
> 13. Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
> From: "Jason & Stephanie" <thesixofus@...>
> 14. Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
> From: SandraDodd@...
> 15. Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
> From: "Jason & Stephanie" <thesixofus@...>
> 16. Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
> From: tuckervill2@...
> 17. Re: Re: Are you guys sure this is going to work???
> From: Jacqueline Parks <ivorygrace7@...>
> 18. a defense of the Rethinking Education conference
> From: SandraDodd@...
> 19. Re: Not really unschoolers
> From: "wifetovegman2002" <wifetovegman2002@...>
> 20. Re: Re: New to List and a question about Arizona
> From: "Brenda" <lvmydd@...>
> 21. fun small-world story
> From: SandraDodd@...
> 22. Re: New to List and a question about Arizona
> From: "Linda" <playingwith3@...>
> 23. Wildly off topic
> From: Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@...>
> 24. Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
> From: Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@...>
> 25. PBS Colonial House
> From: "nellebelle" <nellebelle@...>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:33:24 -0700
> From: "Brenda" <lvmydd@...>
> Subject: Re: New to List and a question about Arizona
>
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> I live in Scottsdale and there are some homeschool groups but the big
>> ones
> are mainly religious and not the unschooling type.
>> Arizona is very good for homeschoolers. No tests, no intrusions. All you
> have to do is register with the Superindentent of Education and they send
> you lots of good info.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Thanks Joanne. :-) I've heard that Scottsdale is a bit more conservative
> than Phoenix and that may be why so many more religious hs groups.
> Better
> climate though, I'm thinking.
>
> And, it's great to know it's pretty easy to hs there. I hate the idea of
> testing. It's important for me to live in a "low regualation" state.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:05:59 -0000
> From: "wifetovegman2002" <wifetovegman2002@...>
> Subject: Re: Not really unschoolers
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
>
>
>> Not doing school at home can't do that. It *can* make learning fun and
>> enjoyable---but the other parts of life are still lacking *something*
>> when chores are expected and bedtimes are enforced and food is
>> restricted and the child's time is not really his own.
>
>
> It has been the most exciting, fascinating, sometimes scarey, thing to
> behold how unschooling has gone in our family from simply meaning "not
> doing school" to encompassing the other areas of our lives.
>
> Each time I have ever thought, "have we gone too far? is this too
> much?" and yet waited for the kids to show me we have indeed pushed
> ourselves over the final line, they prove to me we have yet another
> step to go.
>
> It is like addition. We can always add one more step to the journey.
> Or maybe subtraction. We can always take away one more obstacle.
>
> First it was just school. Then it was food controls and tv/video
> games limits. Then it was bedtimes, and chores and clothing and music
> and movie ratings. Then it was friendships and dating, and who knows
> what the next step will be?
>
> It's so cool to see this unfold, and not just see it but participate
> in it as well.
>
> The discussions on this list and others have definitely helped when I
> was struggling in one area or another. Thanks, everyone!
>
>
>
> Susan M (VA)
> http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html
>
> "Isn't it splendid to think of all the things there are to find out
> about? It just makes me feel glad to be alive -- it's such an
> interesting world." Anne of Green Gables ~ Lucy Montgomery
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:13:19 -0000
> From: "greencow32766" <McGeath3@...>
> Subject: Are you guys sure this is going to work???
>
>
>
> I'm going to drive you all crazy I just know it! Okay, I think it's
> been at least 2 weeks (I hope it's been that long)that I posted here
> and got some great advice - the main thing being to just say school
> is done for the year, no more me asking her every day what she wants
> to do, filling her backpack with things to do while I work - to just
> back off!
>
> Since then, my daughter has LIVED on the computer, she discovered a
> new game and the normal routine is for her to stay up until 2am,
> watch Roseanne until 3am, read a little bit and probably fall asleep
> by 4am or so. She'll sleep in until anywhere between 2-3pm in the
> afternoon when all her friends get home from school then she's on the
> phone and playing this new game on the computer. We are talking 11
> hours on the computer most days. This new schedule has stopped her
> going to chorus at school, she missed the last two art classes
> through our homeschool co-op which she liked going to but today was
> the last one and she didn't want to get up for it. I'm going to work
> for a couple of hours in the morning which is okay I guess although
> she's a little nervous about staying home alone so if she was awake
> she'd be nervous. I also know this new schedule makes it impossible
> for me to keep certain scheduled appointments so I'm having to cancel
> appointments and reschedule.
>
> Her cousins are coming to stay with us for 8 weeks this summer and
> I'd love to be able to take everyone to the park, beach, library
> etc... but I'm afraid that if I don't limit her computer time, she'll
> not be starting her day until 3pm in the afternoon and her two
> cousins will have been waiting around all day for her - she's not
> easy to wake up.
>
> This just seems like she's living a total seperate life than everyone
> else. She expressed an interest in a few 4H projects and earning the
> Girl Scout Silver Award so we bought several books etc... for these
> two things and she did a little until I backed off and now she's just
> on the computer. I haven't mentioned them but I've got the 4H leader
> and people in our girl scout troop wanting her to come work with them
> on different things and now she doesn't seem interested anymore.
>
> I guess I'm a bad parent, I am just having serious doubts that she'll
> get tired of the computer and want to do anything else. We've had
> problems for 2 years with her "obsession" with the computer - this
> caused a lot of problems when she was in school and had homework to
> do.....I'm trying to look at it as the computer is her passion and
> who knows where that could lead and she's been saying she wants to
> create computer security systems for banks - that's great but how is
> playing this game related to that?
>
> AHHHHHH!!!!
> Tracie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:44:26 -0000
> From: "soggyboysmom" <debra.rossing@...>
> Subject: Re: Are you guys sure this is going to work???
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "greencow32766"
> <McGeath3@a...> wrote:
>> get tired of the computer and want to do anything else. We've had
>> problems for 2 years with her "obsession" with the computer -
>> Tracie
> And I'm guessing that for those two years you argued, limited,
> bargained, etc "can't use the computer until you get your
> schoolwork/chores/whatever done..." Now she's got the freedom to
> indulge herself at will. Ever had anyone tell you you *can't* have
> something (M&Ms, cookies, a bubble bath, whatever) until...? And you
> spent all that time thinking about it most likely and counting
> minutes until you could... And you counted and grabbed those M&Ms as
> quickly and as many as you could manage before they were again
> restricted. Same thing she's doing right now. And it's only been a
> short time.
>
> Flip side is that there may be things that cannot be rescheduled
> without cost or pain. That's when you two sit down and figure out a
> compromise - you need her to be able to get up in the morning, she
> wants to play this game and whatall, is she willing to be home by
> herself (if she's old enough), all that stuff. Talk it out- LOTS of
> talk. If there's one big common denominator I've seen in all
> unschooling households is lots of TALK, for fun, for information,
> for connection, for arriving at compromise to keep the *family*
> running relatively smoothly.
>
> As far as the "other people", again, sit down and discuss with her
> freely, not to 'get' her to do these things but rather "These people
> are waiting on you for this. Do we need to tell them it's on hold
> for now?" (not worded well but you get the gist).
>
> Cousin-wise, get her involved in the planning for their visit - she
> might use the Internet to find interesting things to do for the time
> they are in town, for example. Have her type up and print out a
> list. USE her computer skills to make things fun for all. It's
> possible that by the time they arrive (if they're in school they
> likely won't be there for at least a month from now or longer), she
> might have eaten her fill on this game and be willing to ease back
> some.
>
> --Deb
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:50:05 -0000
> From: "soggyboysmom" <debra.rossing@...>
> Subject: Re: New to List and a question about Arizona
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Brenda" <lvmydd@h...>
> wrote:
>> It's important for me to live in a "low regualation" state.
>
> Okay, so (1) no tornadoes (2) unschoolers (3) easy legal climate (4)
> work at home
>
> Hey move to Connecticut! LOL We don't even file notice and we're not
> any kind of school (not even private school); there are unschoolers
> and relaxed eclectic types and inclusive/secular support groups; and
> we rarely ever have a tornado - there was one that touched down about
> 2 years ago, didn't even really register as an F1! We do however have
> the occasional blizzard or hurricane.
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:06:40 -0000
> From: "cordjax" <cordjax@...>
> Subject: Re: Not really unschoolers
>
>
>
> Thanks for the feedback regarding TCS/NCP and its relationship to or
> with unschooling. I'm not replying to anyone's individual response
> here, just to the conversation as a whole.
>
> I hear you. But, while I've seen some of what you describe in
> TCS/NCP circles, the criticisms I'm hearing also remind me a lot the
> ones you hear about unschooling! You know, those who take issue with
> Sandra's "posting style" and those who interpret the concept of RU as
> turning unschooling into "unparenting". I guess part of me feels
> like I have these two really good friends that I love dearly, but
> that don't get along, LOL. It isn't causing a problem for either of
> them, but it bugs me! (and, I mean this in a mild and lighthearted
> way) It mystifies me because I see so much good in each of them, and
> in my eyes they are so alike and ought to be great friends.
>
> My interest in TCS/NCP is what led me to unschooling. And, in my
> view the discussions I read in radical unschooling forums are quite
> simply the practical application of NCP. Ah well....I don't know who
> I'm trying to sell on this, LOL....I'll just continue to take the
> good I get from each and be thankful to all!
>
> Carolyn
>
> p.s. Just saw Dar's posts about her experiences with TCS,
> whew...feeling a little less alone in my perceptions :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:39:42 -0400
> From: "Brenda Rose" <rosebl@...>
> Subject: Re: Not really unschoolers
>
> I like Pam's "Whole Life Unschoolers." Earlier today I was writing and
> used
> the words "complete" or "total" unschoolers to try and get the same
> meaning.
>
> I can see how "radical" was used in the past to differentiate from
> "partial
> unschoolers," but I think of "radical unschooling" as being inclusive of
> all
> aspects of life. I think that's b/c of Susan and Stephanie's
> RadChristianUnschoolers list and their list description.
>
> This is an interesting discussion for me, since I'd not heard much about
> the
> alphabet soup you've been describing<G>.
>
> Because school has infected our thinking and our society so pervasively,
> it
> might be that true unschooling would include complete family lifestyle
> changes. I don't believe that parents (other than Skinner?) used job and
> reward charts before they became popular in schools. Having arbitrarily
> set
> bedtimes may also be a result of the "get up early for school, you need
> your
> rest" influence. Even the idea of how and when people eat
> (alone/together)
> differs in different cultures and here may be part of the controlling
> doctrine spilling over from schools to home.
> Just some random thoughts about it all.
>
> Brenda Rose
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:33:36 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: Re: Re: TCS
>
>
> In a message dated 4/27/2005 9:40:44 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> brewstersears@... writes:
>
> -=-I am very
> okay with explaining cause and effect to my children (ie - when you threw
> the ball, it accidentally hit her in the head when you weren't looking -
> her
> feelings may be hurt - perhaps she'd appreciate hearing you're sorry,
> etc.),
> and allow them to decide what to do from there. I personally am also
> okay
> with saying sorry in this instance - it doesn't feel like I'm owning
> their
> feelings, but simply acknowledging to them and to myself that hurting
> them
> was not my intention.-=-
>
>
>
> ==============
>
> It never bothers me to apologize myself when I clearly really AM sorry
> that
> one of my kids was having a melt-down, or said something he shouldn't have
> said, or my husband cuts someone off with a grocery cart (he's not seeing
> so
> well in one peripheral direction anymore after eye surgery) and if I
> really AM
> sorry, I'm saying, "Ooops, sorry" for my own reasons.
>
> "I'm sorry my daughter got cranky and cried." When she does that I AM
> sorry.
> When others object to those sincere apologies and want to demand one from
> the offending party, that just smacks too much of retribution, and forced
> apologies aren't worth anything anyway.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:36:18 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
>
>
> In a message dated 4/27/2005 9:42:21 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> sandrewmama@... writes:
>
> -=-When the crank calls were brought to the attention of the conference
> organizers, they made a public request, very gentle and timid, explaining
> that the hotel and the police would really appreciate it if whoever is
> doing
> it would please not. -=-
>
>
> ---------
>
> That would've bugged the hell out of me.
>
> I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to tell the kids (in private or public)
> "That's entirely illegal, it makes us all look bad, and it wastes people
> time
> and taxpayer money. AND it makes us all look bad." (Doubles on that
> one.)
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:41:55 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
>
>
> In a message dated 4/27/2005 11:34:50 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> pamsoroosh@... writes:
>
> But there are those who can't even hear the "other stuff" discussed
> without thinking we're limiting the definition of unschooling to mean
> it MUST include that "other stuff."
>
>
>
>
> --------------------
>
> Here are a couple of good quotes I saved from a discussion here last year
> (saved at _http://sandradodd.com/chore/option_
> (http://sandradodd.com/chore/option)
> but quoted below)
>
>
> Where is the edge of unschooling?
>
> ____________________________________
>
>
> "Unschooling didn't blossom until I stepped away from traditional
> parenting." Mercedes / mulwiler
> on the UnschoolingDiscussion list
>
> ____________________________________
>
>
> In a message dated 1/9/2004 SandraDodd@... wrote at
> [email protected]:
> If a family shows up here who's still doing school at home and wants to
> unschool, maybe the talk about food and chores and bedtimes is just going
> to
> overwhelm and confuse them. Because there CAN be unschooling in a family
> where
> kids also have chores and bedtimes and have to clean their plates. I don't
> personally think it will have the depth or benefit, ultimately, as a house
> where
> the children's preferences and freedoms have high priority, but it could
> still
> absolutely be, in homeschooling terms, unschooling.
> I think this is a good point, and something I had been wondering about.
> We
> have unschooled for the past five years. My children had no assigned
> academic
> work; no TV, computer, or video game rules; and in general did what they
> wanted to when they wanted to. But they did have chores, and they did
> have
> regular meal and snack times and no food in between, and they did have
> bedtimes.
> On the other hand, after being on this list for only a few days, I started
> to get the point of doing away with bedtimes, food control, and chores. I
> saw
> the whole picture and respect my children a lot more because of it. We no
> longer have assigned chores and surprise, surprise, my children often are
> willing to help out anyways. We no longer have any food controls, and I
> ask my
> children what they would like before I go to the grocery store, and
> believe it or
> not, I think they eat healthier than before. We no longer have bedtimes,
> and
> the kids do stay up a lot later than they used to, and they're sometimes
> too
> noisy even when I tell them that I'm trying to rest, but this is still new
> to them, and I think they'll settle down after a while when they trust the
> situation more.
> I think it's great that all these topics were discussed on this list. This
> is a great place for other unschoolers like myself to see that there can
> be so
> much more to unschooling than just not doing formal academics.
> Jacqueline (Ivorygrace7...) ========
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:43:06 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
>
>
> In a message dated 4/27/2005 11:47:11 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> freeform@... writes:
>
>>>>Hey - maybe that's the term we need - "Whole Life Unschooling."<<<
>
>
> ------------------
>
>
> How about just Whole Unschooling
> Whole Unschoolers
> Wholly Unschooling
>
> Version of whole.
>
>
> Or Really Unschooling
>
> Real Unschoolers. <g>
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:51:30 -0400
> From: "Jason & Stephanie" <thesixofus@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
>
>
>
> How about just Whole Unschooling
> Whole Unschoolers
> Wholly Unschooling
>
> Version of whole.
>
>
> Or Really Unschooling
>
> Real Unschoolers. <g>
>
> Sandra>>>>>>>>>.
>
> ****I've used the terms whole life unschoolers, complete unschoolers and
> total unschoolers recently, I also say *real* :)
>
> Stephanie in PA
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:53:12 -0400
> From: "Jason & Stephanie" <thesixofus@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
>
>
>
>
>
> <<<I like Pam's "Whole Life Unschoolers." Earlier today I was writing
> and used
> the words "complete" or "total" unschoolers to try and get the same
> meaning.>>>>>>.
>
> ****I just realized I said the same thing you did in my last post <g>
>
> I can see how "radical" was used in the past to differentiate from
> "partial
> unschoolers," but I think of "radical unschooling" as being inclusive of
> all
> aspects of life. I think that's b/c of Susan and Stephanie's
> RadChristianUnschoolers list and their list description.>>>>>>>
>
> ****Thanks for plugging the list :)
>
> Stephanie in PA
> Kieran (9) Brennan(6) Cassandra(5) Jared(2)
>
> True learning- learning that is permanent and useful, that leads to
> intelligent action
> and further learning- can arise only out of the experience, interests and
> concerns of the learner.
> ~John Holt
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:55:12 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
>
>
> In a message dated 4/27/2005 2:55:33 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> cordjax@... writes:
>
> -=-And, in my
> view the discussions I read in radical unschooling forums are quite
>simply the practical application of NCP. -=-
>
>
> --------------------
>
> But it can't be the practical application of a philosophy people never
> heard
> of, or have heard about but don't care about, or have been told repeatedly
> of by someone who's also saying what we're doing is highly coercive.
>
> My response to that was never more than "Whatever."
>
> When someone refused to share real stories but was willing to pick apart
> ours as wrong and coercive, when nobody ordered home NCP therapy, it was
> irritating.
>
> So while it might be the practical application or real living of what
> NCP
> says might be ideal, it's not "simply" the application of that
> philosophy.
>
> I can coerce someone I respect. I do it often. <g>
> Maybe I couldn't respect someone I would never, ever bother to try to
> persuade or change.
> (Just thinking aloud with my fingers--this is a probably-fleeting idea
> and
> not a theory or a conviction.) If a friend of mine is drinking too much
> and I
> know he needs to be somewhere in the morning and doesn't want to
> embarrass
> himself or spend all his money, I wouldn't hesitate to try to get him to
> stop.
> If my husband is somewhere and no longer having ANY fun, I would think
> it
> a gift to him and all concerned to suggest something more fun to do, or
> voice
> some justifications he could use for leaving right thne and coming back
> later if he's more in the mood. (Thinking of SCA situations, just for
> clarification.) If Kirby is being indecisive about what to do but I
> know a friend of
> his is waiting for a phone call and he's supposed to be watching a movie
> with
> another friend, I'll play secretary for him for long enough to help him
> formulate an efficient plan for the afternoon or evening. I won't MAKE
> him make
> a phone call or whatever, but sometimes people WANT others to help them
> channel their vague unrest and angst. Waiting for them to make their own
> decisions without any pressure can be cruel, if you know that the outcome
> of pressing
> them to do what needs to be done and not to forget their friends, their
> commitments, their even-slightly-stated intentions.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:57:52 -0400
> From: "Jason & Stephanie" <thesixofus@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
>
>
>
> Here are a couple of good quotes I saved from a discussion here last year
> (saved at _http://sandradodd.com/chore/option_
> (http://sandradodd.com/chore/option)
> but quoted below)
>
>
> Where is the edge of unschooling?
>
> ____________________________________
>
> ****When I first learned about unschooling I had a mental roadblock about
> the *rest of life*. I thought it just meant not doing school and couldn't
> figure out what everything else had to do with it. I didn't have any
> problems with rules or chores or tv or any other issues I just couldn't
> figure out what it had to do with unschooling. I get it now <g> It makes
> total sense to extend the philosophy to our *whole life*.
>
> Stephanie in PA *real unschooler*
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:02:32 EDT
> From: tuckervill2@...
> Subject: Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
>
>
>
> In a message dated 4/27/2005 6:56:28 PM Central Standard Time,
> SandraDodd@... writes:
>
> Waiting for them to make their own
> decisions without any pressure can be cruel, if you know that the
> outcome
> of pressing
> them to do what needs to be done and not to forget their friends, their
> commitments, their even-slightly-stated intentions.
>
>
>
>
> ~~~
> That's where the relationship part comes in. We form social contracts
> with
> each other to help and encourage each other. Where that line is drawn is
> different in every relationship. But there's still a line. I want to
> hold up
> my end of my contract, and that includes what a reasonable person would
> want
> from a person they love and whose opinions they value. I consider my
> kids to
> be reasonable people. I'm not cutting off a piece of them if remind one
> that
> he wanted to practice his pitching today, or if I go out and drag the
> pitchback out into the yard for him.
>
> Karen
>
> www.badchair.net
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:06:37 -0400
> From: Jacqueline Parks <ivorygrace7@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Are you guys sure this is going to work???
>
> *****I am just having serious doubts that she'll
> get tired of the computer and want to do anything else.*****
>
>
> We first got at home internet access in October 2003, and 24 hours a
> day was not enough time for my five children and me to explore. We
> fought over time and continuously had to compromise. Someone was on
> the computer at every moment with sleep schedules staggered to squeeze
> out every second of computer time. No one thought they had enough.
> Were we exploring all the wonderful information available here? Not
> really, the kids mostly played Neopets, and I mostly read email lists
> especially this one. <g>
>
> Do we still do that? No. Eventually our interests moved on and now
> my 7 and 11 yo dd's rarely use the computer. I could just see a more
> traditionally inclined parent trying to limit them back then and now
> forcing them, lol! I still use the computer about 8 hours a day, but
> for a wide variety of things. My 11 yo ds and 8 yo dd use it
> regularly for email, a few games, writing, and occasionally looking
> things up. My 16 yo dd progressed from a few months of nothing but
> Neopets to managing several websites, doing paid graphic design work,
> writing award winning fan-fic, and keeping the entire family up on
> current events. She also currently spends around 8 hours a day on the
> computer.
>
> I wouldn't worry. If you don't restrict her, she will find the path
> that is best for her. Of course, if her activities are seriously
> affecting other family members in a negative way some compromise might
> be in order, not just by her but by others too.
>
> ~Jacqueline
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:25:30 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: a defense of the Rethinking Education conference
>
> This was sent directly to the people to whom it is addressed, with a copy
> to
> this list.
> The author joined the list specifically to send this, and so asking her to
> read for a week or two seems inappropriate, but approving a post does too.
> So
> in a compromise move, I have stripped off the quoted posts and am sending
> the text of the message.
>
> We don't need to discuss the particulars of a conference here. Let's
> stick
> to the philosophical differences and generalities, please.
>
> Thanks,
> Sandra
> (moderator, 1/3 listowner)
>
>
> A message has been sent to the UnschoolingDiscussion group from
>
> barb.lundgren@...
>
> --------------------
> FROM: barb.lundgren@...
> DATE: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:21:32 -0500
> SUBJECT: Not really unschoolers
>
> Greetings Chris and Tuckerville,
>
> I saw each of your posts on this list and would like to comment, as both
> the
> founder and producer of the Rethinking Education Conference series in
> Dallas
> (our next conference is coming up, visit
> http://www.rethinkingeducation.com
> for details) and a follower of TCS for many years. First, to address
> Chris'
> memory of a few years back in which a child at the conference called 911
> (not once but twice!). At no point did I or other conference organizers
> explain away the seriousness of the incident as "kids will be kids". In
> fact, as soon as police showed up in response to the 911 call, the
> organizer
> at the microphone (we were in the middle of our Talent Show) asked for
> parents' help in finding the culprit and resolving the problem. Many
> parents left the room immediately to check on their children and a young
> boy
> admitted to his father that he had dialed 911, not having any idea that
> police would show up, much less that it was a felony to commit this act.
> The father and mother both pulled the boy aside and then addressed the
> audience with an apology. After a discussion with the police, it was
> determined that the act was not malevolent, but innocent. No charges
> were
> filed and no further incidents occurred.
>
> Further, I don't have any reason to believe that a TCS audience, child or
> family would permit a criminal, dangerous or felonious act to be
> committed
> by their child. Tuckerville in my estimation misunderstands TCS
> philosophy
> when stating "the child can flat out refuse to consider anyone else's
> feelings, needs and desires, and the parent would be philosophy-bound
> not
> to coerce them in any way, regardless of the direness of the situation."
> My experience and study of TCS tells me that while it is never
> appropriate
> to coerce a child to right action, a TCS parent would never stand by to
> witness a child engaged in activity dangerous to himself or another. The
> parent would be compelled to remove the child from the situation, e.g.,
> the
> classic argument of the child running into a busy highway. This is a
> crucial element of the philosophy not often discussed, and in my personal
> experience not an issue where TCS is the standard, consistent parenting
> model.
>
> In my experience and study of TCS, in families where the authoritarian
> model
> of parenting is being replaced with a TCS model, there can be quite a lot
> of
> fluctuation in behavior, both from the children and the parents, as
> everyone
> struggles to establish solidarity and reliability in communication style.
> As a parent who has raised three children, now grown, with a TCS approach
> (although frankly I never knew there was a label for it, now known as
> TCS),
> I can attest to the complete lack of motive a child has to rebel or act
> in
> dangerous behavior when raised in an environment where his parents can
> ALWAYS be trusted to give their honest opinions, give reliable
> information
> on all subjects the child is curious about, and both respected and
> trusted
> to make the best decisions for both himself and others affected by his
> decisions (all TCS tenets). A child raised in such an atmosphere seeks
> his
> parents' opinions and counsel and while he might not always follow the
> advice, he knows his decision will be respected.
>
> I have been a part of discussions and debate on TCS for years, and I
> sympathize with the difficulty in understanding it and putting it into
> play
> - it certainly is a radical alternative from the traditional parenting
> model
> of "do what I say because I said so". As far as I'm concerned, TCS is a
> revolutionary approach with great promise.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:12:01 -0000
> From: "wifetovegman2002" <wifetovegman2002@...>
> Subject: Re: Not really unschoolers
>
>
> --- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 4/27/2005 11:47:11 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
>> freeform@j... writes:
>>
>> >>>Hey - maybe that's the term we need - "Whole Life Unschooling."<<<
>>
>>
>> ------------------
>>
>>
>> How about just Whole Unschooling
>> Whole Unschoolers
>> Wholly Unschooling
>>
>> Version of whole.
>>
>>
>> Or Really Unschooling
>>
>> Real Unschoolers. <g>
>>
>> Sandra
>
>
>
> How about Unconditional Unschooling? ;-)
>
>
>
> Susan M (VA)
> http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html
>
> "Isn't it splendid to think of all the things there are to find out
> about? It just makes me feel glad to be alive -- it's such an
> interesting world." Anne of Green Gables ~ Lucy Montgomery
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:26:56 -0700
> From: "Brenda" <lvmydd@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: New to List and a question about Arizona
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>> Hey move to Connecticut! LOL We don't even file notice and we're not
>> any kind of school (not even private school); there are unschoolers
>> and relaxed eclectic types and inclusive/secular support groups; and
>> we rarely ever have a tornado - there was one that touched down about
>> 2 years ago, didn't even really register as an F1! We do however have
>> the occasional blizzard or hurricane.
>>
>
>
> Oh, and you guys don't have sales tax either, right? Another plus. TBH,
> I
> love, love CT. I used to live right across the border in Westchester
> County
> as a nanny, Chappaqua to be exact.
>
> However, I am way to scared to make a move cross-country (don't know
> anyone
> there) and I don't think the COL is all that much lower than S.
> California
> anyhow. Darn.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:18:39 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: fun small-world story
>
>
> Today Holly and I (and Vincent King, another homeschooler friend) all
> spent
> the day at Sandia Prep, a private school here, where I played etymology
> games
> and told stories to my friend Mo Palmer's 7th grade history classes.
> Holly
> just love to observe school kids. They had new desks and she got to sit in
> one. Vincent's dad wants him to go to school next year, and this is his
> school
> of choice. He's already done the formal all-day visitation, and I
> thought
> he might like to spend another day there.
>
> Holly came home and played Halo II for a few hours and just had this IM
> exchange which really made her yell for me in the next room, and I went
> and got
> her dad too. She's thrilled:
>
> BlazingOranges: hey
> HiperSpaz232: u play halo well this is Moto Mac do u rember?
> BlazingOranges: oh yeah, i 'member
> HiperSpaz232: well i was looking at gamertag pics and u were one of
> scotts
> friend and u live in the same town as me
> BlazingOranges: really?
> HiperSpaz232: yeah
> HiperSpaz232: what school do u go to
> BlazingOranges: actually I'm homeschooled
> HiperSpaz232: omg did u go to my school today?
> BlazingOranges: kind of
> BlazingOranges: o mean maybe?
> HiperSpaz232: ok
> HiperSpaz232: lol
> HiperSpaz232: well sandia prep?
> BlazingOranges: yes! omg
> HiperSpaz232: omg
> HiperSpaz232: in mrs palmers
> HiperSpaz232: ?
> BlazingOranges: yeah
> HiperSpaz232: yeah i was in there in activity when we were watching
> frankenstien
> BlazingOranges: oh my god! that is so cool
>
> So...
> While it's great that Holly's played with kids from New Zealand and
> England
> and all over north America, this is even more impressive, statistically
> speaking. <g> She's played with this girls several times before.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:25:16 -0000
> From: "Linda" <playingwith3@...>
> Subject: Re: New to List and a question about Arizona
>
>
>
> Hi Brenda!!
> I know you from another place on the web and I wanted to say hi.
>
> You gave me some valuable info on Tucson last October. I turned out
> we went there several times over the past few months and found tons of
> stuff to do. Thanks for your response before. I have no info for
> you, but I wish you the very best!!
> lindavw
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:05:40 -0600
> From: Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@...>
> Subject: Wildly off topic
>
> And because I couldn't quickly find Anne O's e-mail address and if she's
> not here I hope someone who has her e-mail address sends this to her,
> fellow bird lover..
>
> The Ivory Billed Woodpecker, long thought to be extinct has been
> rediscovered in Arkansas.
>
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4622633
>
> Karen, go get a picture for me, Ok? <G>
>
> Deb L
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:19:40 -0600
> From: Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Not really unschoolers
>
> ***Wholly Unschooling***
>
> Batman!
>
> Ubiquitous Unschoolers, no good because it'd get shortened to UU's and
> someone else already has that.
> Panoptic Unschoolers sounds like a medical condition - Panoptic
> Unschooling syndrome. What? We run around lifting curfews and
> dispensing video games?
> Capacious Unschoolers. : /
> Expansive Unschoolers, sounds like we're all enormous. "The groups of
> expansive unschoolers was trapped in the hotel lobby for three days while
> fire fighters used the jaws of life to extract those who had become
> jammed in the doorway."
>
>
>
> Deb L
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:31:36 -0700
> From: "nellebelle" <nellebelle@...>
> Subject: PBS Colonial House
>
> One of my recent finds at our local library was PBS Colonial House on DVD.
> Maybe some will enjoy reading my thoughts on our viewing it. Maybe not.
> Mary Ellen
> http://melonary.blogspot.com/
> 21st Centurions in the 16th Century
> We finished watching Colonial House today. Our experience in viewing this
> together is such a great example of the manner in which real learning
> cannot be contained by mere subjects.
>
> The schooled part of me wanted to tell more than one person (you know who
> those people might be) that we spent the week studying history, or more
> specifically, the Colonial era. And that is true, we did. The program
> highlighted many of the realities of colonists to New England during the
> early 1600's.
>
> But the study of anything in the past is so much more than history. For
> starters, there was a great deal of herstory. Not to mention childrenstory
> and indigentpeoplestory, or at least a mention of the last two.
>
> What made the show especially fascinating to me was the sharing of the
> 21st century participant's views of living four months in the physical
> space of 1628. At first glance, it may seem that people wanting to break
> free from the bonds of indentured servant or women's subservience to men
> is a modern thing. However, I think that these desires have always been
> so, and it is only minor variances in society that promote big steps in
> behavioral changes.
>
> The other point is that any time we consider something that can be
> categorized (this is history!), we actually experience a far greater range
> of ideas. History just means it happened previous to now. Just because it
> happened in the past doesn't mean it is limited to *history*.
>
> Serendipity comes into play as well, with this particular show leading us
> to a discussion of homosexuality, followed by Lisa's magazine subscription
> coming in the mail and containing information on the same topic. (Jonathon
> came out in episode 4 of Colonial House, and the Governor hoped his
> confession was the first step towards changing his evil ways. This led to
> a discussion about being gay and people's beliefs on homosexuality being
> something you are born with or something you choose. Later, Lisa was
> reading one of her magazines and shared the letters to the editor.
> Apparently the last issue had a quiz to help people know if they are gay
> or not. Two of the letters criticized the magazine editors for printing
> such a quiz, suggesting that young people will only become gay if they
> know it's an option. One of the letters was from a girl who had thought
> she might be gay, but after taking the quiz decided she wasn't.) Today
> Lisa told me that she is going to attempt to create gay SIMs characters. I
> asked her how one programs their romance aspects and she explained that
> you create the family tree, so she is going to make male/male or
> female/female spouses and see what happens.
>
> Pat and I had also been discussing homosexuality recently because it has
> been in the national news headlines. Pat's cousin died from AIDs
> complications in the 80's. I never met him, but I've asked Pat questions
> about his childhood memories of Terry. When did he realize his cousin was
> gay? What led him to realize it?
>
> Jackie was not as interested in the Colonial House program, though she did
> watch about half of it. She was interested in their clothing. While we
> watched, she spent some time playing with Barbies and Digi-draw, and drew
> a number of portraits. In one Colonial House episode, one of the colonists
> drew a charcoal portrait of the lay preacher/governor. Other colonists
> were envious of the *leisure time* afforded to the artist (who was
> commanded to make the portrait) while the rest of them were processing
> lumber or preparing meals. Jackie asked me if I would borrow Colonial
> House from the library another time, and watch with her. I said yes, then
> she went off to play something else.
>
> Mary Ellen
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
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