Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] NCP
[email protected]
Sorry I know this was not the subject line, but I'm on digest and I can't
remember what the darned subj line was! : )
<<I am not Presbyterian, but I haven't rejected it. I never was
Presbyterian.
I'm not vegan. I don't want to study it to decide whether to reject it.
I'm happy eating what I'm eating.
<<If the way someone lives seems like Buddhism to you and all you think
they're lacking is the label, how many times would you suggest to them that
what
they were calling mindfulness was the same as Zen Buddhism, and why were
they
rejecting Buddhism?
Okay...I shouldn't be saying anything because I feel SO out of my league
w/all of you eloquent writers, but HECK, I'm going to anyway :)
To me talking about NCP to a radical unschooler would be more like - seeing
someone who is growing their own vegetables organically and then you telling
them how you do that too, AND that you found out how to make your own compost
to improve your soil in your organic garden. Does that make any sense?
They're not opposing things, but they're not the same thing, but they can
work _together_ well to make the garden produce even better.
Some people w/vegetable gardens might not want to take that extra step, or
feel their soil produces great vegetables just the way they've always done
things, and that's fine. They'll still be eating delicious organic vegetables.
Okay...I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone except me -LOL...see!
that's why I'm not writing articles or posting much on these lists <grin>
<<<Some of us have been told (in AOL forum days) clearly that others'
feelings
were their own damned problem, and that coercing a child for ANY reason was
just the evillest thing ever. And if a person's life decisions will all
hinge
on non-coercion, there it is.
...AH, so that's it. Sounds like someone who didn't interprety/practice NCP
the same way I interpreted it! I can see if someone came here spouting that
kind of language that it'd turn you off. If that had been the way I was
introduced to it, I wouldn't have found it attractive or useful ONE BIT, nor
would I have wasted one minute of my time by investigating it further!
<<< Pressing things to meld and blend won't work when one group says "no
personal examples" while the other is saying "avoid theoretical and
hypothetical
questions and stories."
...Which is why I still say "forget the lists...buy the BOOKS" :)
I, and many others, are only saying that NCP (as well as TCS & NVC) are good
tools to use for some radical unschoolers. I think they're especially
helpful to help change deeply ingrained habits & learn to communicate in helpful,
mindful and generally positive ways. So if you're a veteran radical
unschooler...yes, I can certainly understand perfectly that you might not need those
tools!
But I'm a relative newbie of 2 years w/a 6 year old DD. I was raised by
very authoritarian parents and tend to be a very controlling person (or used to
be...I'm working on it). So, I consider myself to be a radical unschooler
who uses ideas from all of the above in my Life Toolbox. And I'm happy that
I've found those tools that help me be a better Mom & wife & friend :)
xoxo,
Denise
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
remember what the darned subj line was! : )
<<I am not Presbyterian, but I haven't rejected it. I never was
Presbyterian.
I'm not vegan. I don't want to study it to decide whether to reject it.
I'm happy eating what I'm eating.
<<If the way someone lives seems like Buddhism to you and all you think
they're lacking is the label, how many times would you suggest to them that
what
they were calling mindfulness was the same as Zen Buddhism, and why were
they
rejecting Buddhism?
Okay...I shouldn't be saying anything because I feel SO out of my league
w/all of you eloquent writers, but HECK, I'm going to anyway :)
To me talking about NCP to a radical unschooler would be more like - seeing
someone who is growing their own vegetables organically and then you telling
them how you do that too, AND that you found out how to make your own compost
to improve your soil in your organic garden. Does that make any sense?
They're not opposing things, but they're not the same thing, but they can
work _together_ well to make the garden produce even better.
Some people w/vegetable gardens might not want to take that extra step, or
feel their soil produces great vegetables just the way they've always done
things, and that's fine. They'll still be eating delicious organic vegetables.
Okay...I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone except me -LOL...see!
that's why I'm not writing articles or posting much on these lists <grin>
<<<Some of us have been told (in AOL forum days) clearly that others'
feelings
were their own damned problem, and that coercing a child for ANY reason was
just the evillest thing ever. And if a person's life decisions will all
hinge
on non-coercion, there it is.
...AH, so that's it. Sounds like someone who didn't interprety/practice NCP
the same way I interpreted it! I can see if someone came here spouting that
kind of language that it'd turn you off. If that had been the way I was
introduced to it, I wouldn't have found it attractive or useful ONE BIT, nor
would I have wasted one minute of my time by investigating it further!
<<< Pressing things to meld and blend won't work when one group says "no
personal examples" while the other is saying "avoid theoretical and
hypothetical
questions and stories."
...Which is why I still say "forget the lists...buy the BOOKS" :)
I, and many others, are only saying that NCP (as well as TCS & NVC) are good
tools to use for some radical unschoolers. I think they're especially
helpful to help change deeply ingrained habits & learn to communicate in helpful,
mindful and generally positive ways. So if you're a veteran radical
unschooler...yes, I can certainly understand perfectly that you might not need those
tools!
But I'm a relative newbie of 2 years w/a 6 year old DD. I was raised by
very authoritarian parents and tend to be a very controlling person (or used to
be...I'm working on it). So, I consider myself to be a radical unschooler
who uses ideas from all of the above in my Life Toolbox. And I'm happy that
I've found those tools that help me be a better Mom & wife & friend :)
xoxo,
Denise
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Apr 28, 2005, at 4:07 PM, we3deeves@... wrote:
but was poisoning my garden by not using your composting method at the
same time you were refusing to tell me anything about how your tomatoes
actually, in real life, grew, and, in fact, looking down your nose at
me for telling you the true-life details about MY organically grown
(but not composted your way) tomatoes.
I have no reason to think that their kids are likely to turn out kind,
considerate, thoughtful, thinking, empathetic, inspiring, energetic,
self-motivated, responsible, etc. I have no evidence that their
theories pan out in real life. They don't talk about their real kids -
how convenient is that, if, in fact, this kind of parenting results in
self-centered, careless, irresponsible people.
-pam
> To me talking about NCP to a radical unschooler would be more like -I think it would be more like you telling me I may think I'm organic
> seeing
> someone who is growing their own vegetables organically and then you
> telling
> them how you do that too, AND that you found out how to make your own
> compost
> to improve your soil in your organic garden. Does that make any
> sense?
but was poisoning my garden by not using your composting method at the
same time you were refusing to tell me anything about how your tomatoes
actually, in real life, grew, and, in fact, looking down your nose at
me for telling you the true-life details about MY organically grown
(but not composted your way) tomatoes.
I have no reason to think that their kids are likely to turn out kind,
considerate, thoughtful, thinking, empathetic, inspiring, energetic,
self-motivated, responsible, etc. I have no evidence that their
theories pan out in real life. They don't talk about their real kids -
how convenient is that, if, in fact, this kind of parenting results in
self-centered, careless, irresponsible people.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2005 5:11:36 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
we3deeves@... writes:
-=-Some people w/vegetable gardens might not want to take that extra step,
-=-
I don't think it's an extra step.
And I did read lots of the online literature. And I'm not planning to read
a book, because nothing else I read made me think it was a tool superior to
the tools I was using for years before I ever heard of that Popeil Pocket
Fisherman.
For people who are using it and liking it, that is great. It's peachy-keen.
It's hunky dory.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
we3deeves@... writes:
-=-Some people w/vegetable gardens might not want to take that extra step,
-=-
I don't think it's an extra step.
And I did read lots of the online literature. And I'm not planning to read
a book, because nothing else I read made me think it was a tool superior to
the tools I was using for years before I ever heard of that Popeil Pocket
Fisherman.
For people who are using it and liking it, that is great. It's peachy-keen.
It's hunky dory.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2005 6:05:15 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
I think it would be more like you telling me I may think I'm organic
but was poisoning my garden by not using your composting method at the
same time you were refusing to tell me anything about how your tomatoes
actually, in real life, grew, and, in fact, looking down your nose at
me for telling you the true-life details about MY organically grown
(but not composted your way) tomatoes.
=================
Well that's a forceful yet honest analogy.<g>
I've shown my tomatoes online in word and photo and in person for years and
years, and when I'm criticized by someone who won't even confirm they HAVE
tomatoes, it's irritating. <G>
It might be a fine way to grow tomatoes. But it's a THEORY about growing
tomatoes. The tomatoes have to want to grow.
If figure if I put seeds in the ground and water them and make sure the bugs
don't get the seedlings and the cats don't dig them up and the plants keep
reaching up and getting bigger and start growing tomatoes, they might've wanted
to be growing! I will coerce any horn-worm the hell out of my tomato patch.
(Had actual tomatoes last year; won't bother this year. Have actual kids
this year, still!
_http://sandradodd.com/kirby_ (http://sandradodd.com/kirby)
_http://sandradodd.com/marty_ (http://sandradodd.com/marty)
_http://sandradodd.com/holly_ (http://sandradodd.com/holly)
I really need a newer photo on the Kirby page. He's had short hair now for
nearly two years, and by short I mean too short to tie back, but not "short."
-=-I have no reason to think that their kids are likely to turn out kind,
considerate, thoughtful, thinking, empathetic, inspiring, energetic,
self-motivated, responsible, etc.-=-
I have no reason to think that's even their goal.
The only goal I could ever see for sure was that the kids would grow up
believing that no one had the right to coerce them to do anything. And that's
not even reasonable, let alone true.
-= I have no evidence that their
theories pan out in real life. -=-
The theories were never elaborated on in the discussions I was in on, nor at
the TCS website. Just the premise, hammered home with a bigger and bigger
hammer.
-=-They don't talk about their real kids -
how convenient is that, if, in fact, this kind of parenting results in
self-centered, careless, irresponsible people.
-=-
And how wasteful of energy to talk about it so vaguely if it IS a fantastic
way to improve family relations and help children grow up whole and thoughtful
and happy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
I think it would be more like you telling me I may think I'm organic
but was poisoning my garden by not using your composting method at the
same time you were refusing to tell me anything about how your tomatoes
actually, in real life, grew, and, in fact, looking down your nose at
me for telling you the true-life details about MY organically grown
(but not composted your way) tomatoes.
=================
Well that's a forceful yet honest analogy.<g>
I've shown my tomatoes online in word and photo and in person for years and
years, and when I'm criticized by someone who won't even confirm they HAVE
tomatoes, it's irritating. <G>
It might be a fine way to grow tomatoes. But it's a THEORY about growing
tomatoes. The tomatoes have to want to grow.
If figure if I put seeds in the ground and water them and make sure the bugs
don't get the seedlings and the cats don't dig them up and the plants keep
reaching up and getting bigger and start growing tomatoes, they might've wanted
to be growing! I will coerce any horn-worm the hell out of my tomato patch.
(Had actual tomatoes last year; won't bother this year. Have actual kids
this year, still!
_http://sandradodd.com/kirby_ (http://sandradodd.com/kirby)
_http://sandradodd.com/marty_ (http://sandradodd.com/marty)
_http://sandradodd.com/holly_ (http://sandradodd.com/holly)
I really need a newer photo on the Kirby page. He's had short hair now for
nearly two years, and by short I mean too short to tie back, but not "short."
-=-I have no reason to think that their kids are likely to turn out kind,
considerate, thoughtful, thinking, empathetic, inspiring, energetic,
self-motivated, responsible, etc.-=-
I have no reason to think that's even their goal.
The only goal I could ever see for sure was that the kids would grow up
believing that no one had the right to coerce them to do anything. And that's
not even reasonable, let alone true.
-= I have no evidence that their
theories pan out in real life. -=-
The theories were never elaborated on in the discussions I was in on, nor at
the TCS website. Just the premise, hammered home with a bigger and bigger
hammer.
-=-They don't talk about their real kids -
how convenient is that, if, in fact, this kind of parenting results in
self-centered, careless, irresponsible people.
-=-
And how wasteful of energy to talk about it so vaguely if it IS a fantastic
way to improve family relations and help children grow up whole and thoughtful
and happy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
SandraDodd@... wrote:
It's probably just the stress with the move and all. I can totally
understand the points of view being expressed. I think TCS offers some
valuable tools, same with NVC, though the scripted nature of that makes
me a bit crazy. I came to Unschooling and embraced it when my kids were
pretty young as, in part, a natural extension of AP and LLL philosophies
that I'd already been practicing.
I discovered TCS within the next 6-12 months of that, thanks to my 3rd,
highly autonomous child. It offered some very helpful approaches with a
kind of "how-to" curriculum that was absent from Unschooling in the
beginning for me. But, at the same time, I found it lacked the
*practical* how-to offered by e-lists like this one. Reading the two
together was helpful in my journey, and I see the Venn diagram aspect
Robyn points to.
For me, I always say I practice TCS-lite. Very few people talk about the
rigors of TCS philosophy applied to multiple children, which I've found
personally frustrating. I do my best to parent respectfully and
non-coercively, but the realities of life with several children, which
I'm happy to talk about in detail (check it out on the AU list or my web
pages), often demonstrate the futility of life without any kind of
coercion whatsoever. I can't get that to happen with children who have
different temperaments, different needs and a similar need for proximity
to me. The practicalities fall short of the ideals.
For me, my family and the reality of the individual/ group needs is the
most important thing--more important than a philosophy or abstract
ideal, for sure--and that is the biggest difference as I see it between
RU and TCS. One puts family first, the other philosophy.
~~Danielle
Emily (7), Julia (6), Sam (4.5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
>I've shown my tomatoes online in word and photo and in person for years andOkay, maybe it's just me, but this is starting to sound dirty. ;)
>years, and when I'm criticized by someone who won't even confirm they HAVE
>tomatoes, it's irritating. <G>
>
>It might be a fine way to grow tomatoes. But it's a THEORY about growing
>tomatoes. The tomatoes have to want to grow.
>
It's probably just the stress with the move and all. I can totally
understand the points of view being expressed. I think TCS offers some
valuable tools, same with NVC, though the scripted nature of that makes
me a bit crazy. I came to Unschooling and embraced it when my kids were
pretty young as, in part, a natural extension of AP and LLL philosophies
that I'd already been practicing.
I discovered TCS within the next 6-12 months of that, thanks to my 3rd,
highly autonomous child. It offered some very helpful approaches with a
kind of "how-to" curriculum that was absent from Unschooling in the
beginning for me. But, at the same time, I found it lacked the
*practical* how-to offered by e-lists like this one. Reading the two
together was helpful in my journey, and I see the Venn diagram aspect
Robyn points to.
For me, I always say I practice TCS-lite. Very few people talk about the
rigors of TCS philosophy applied to multiple children, which I've found
personally frustrating. I do my best to parent respectfully and
non-coercively, but the realities of life with several children, which
I'm happy to talk about in detail (check it out on the AU list or my web
pages), often demonstrate the futility of life without any kind of
coercion whatsoever. I can't get that to happen with children who have
different temperaments, different needs and a similar need for proximity
to me. The practicalities fall short of the ideals.
For me, my family and the reality of the individual/ group needs is the
most important thing--more important than a philosophy or abstract
ideal, for sure--and that is the biggest difference as I see it between
RU and TCS. One puts family first, the other philosophy.
~~Danielle
Emily (7), Julia (6), Sam (4.5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2005 7:10:32 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
danielle.conger@... writes:
-=-Okay, maybe it's just me, but this is starting to sound dirty. ;) -=-
The compost part was dirtier.
-=-For me, I always say I practice TCS-lite. Very few people talk about the
rigors of TCS philosophy applied to multiple children, which I've found
personally frustrating.-=-
One complaint about the "Taking Children Seriously" label is that it implies
that other people didn't take them seriously. And the main proponent of
the philosophy only had one child, when the website was set up (though maybe
she had another later or something; I didn't follow the story). And the photo
of her with a handgun (in England) was replaced with some other photo after a
while.
Theoretical stuff seems fine for childless people and academics. For
single, childless academics, it's perfect! Parents helping other parents,
though--that holds a special value and attraction.
Danielle wrote: -=-For me, my family and the reality of the individual/
group needs is the most important thing--more important than a philosophy or
abstract
ideal, for sure--and that is the biggest difference as I see it between
RU and TCS. One puts family first, the other philosophy.-=-
Sometimes I envision my children as parents, and sometimes as spouses. I
like to think of Kirby being a really nice husband, and of Marty being a fun
dad. If I "trained" them by word, example and practice to believe that their
rights and wishes were above all, I don't think they would have the ability to
shift, adjust and balance various people's needs in the moment. Sometimes
one person is needy or vulnerable, sick or tired or hungry. Sometimes they're
so hungry they don't want to eat anymore. At that moment, they need to be
persuaded to eat more than I need to be defending my right to have my way
without coercion about something. Even the theoretical examples sometimes seemed
other-worldly to me, and cartoonish. There seemed to be no room for
generosity or selflessness or neediness or emergency measures.
I think my kids will be good parents. I think they would be better parents
right now than most of the adults I've met in my life (as parents, at the
time they really WERE parents). I don't think NCP's principles would have
produced these "results." And that's not to say I am or have been a coercive
parent; I'm not.
I think they're quite different things that seem similar in some lights,
from some angles.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
danielle.conger@... writes:
-=-Okay, maybe it's just me, but this is starting to sound dirty. ;) -=-
The compost part was dirtier.
-=-For me, I always say I practice TCS-lite. Very few people talk about the
rigors of TCS philosophy applied to multiple children, which I've found
personally frustrating.-=-
One complaint about the "Taking Children Seriously" label is that it implies
that other people didn't take them seriously. And the main proponent of
the philosophy only had one child, when the website was set up (though maybe
she had another later or something; I didn't follow the story). And the photo
of her with a handgun (in England) was replaced with some other photo after a
while.
Theoretical stuff seems fine for childless people and academics. For
single, childless academics, it's perfect! Parents helping other parents,
though--that holds a special value and attraction.
Danielle wrote: -=-For me, my family and the reality of the individual/
group needs is the most important thing--more important than a philosophy or
abstract
ideal, for sure--and that is the biggest difference as I see it between
RU and TCS. One puts family first, the other philosophy.-=-
Sometimes I envision my children as parents, and sometimes as spouses. I
like to think of Kirby being a really nice husband, and of Marty being a fun
dad. If I "trained" them by word, example and practice to believe that their
rights and wishes were above all, I don't think they would have the ability to
shift, adjust and balance various people's needs in the moment. Sometimes
one person is needy or vulnerable, sick or tired or hungry. Sometimes they're
so hungry they don't want to eat anymore. At that moment, they need to be
persuaded to eat more than I need to be defending my right to have my way
without coercion about something. Even the theoretical examples sometimes seemed
other-worldly to me, and cartoonish. There seemed to be no room for
generosity or selflessness or neediness or emergency measures.
I think my kids will be good parents. I think they would be better parents
right now than most of the adults I've met in my life (as parents, at the
time they really WERE parents). I don't think NCP's principles would have
produced these "results." And that's not to say I am or have been a coercive
parent; I'm not.
I think they're quite different things that seem similar in some lights,
from some angles.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sears Family
I am wanting to say how much I appreciate this conversation on TCS/NCP. My
experience and gut reaction, more with NVC, after trying very hard to use it
for over a year with my family of 3 children, is almost identicle to every
point mentioned so far, mainly by Pam and Sandra. It is very affirming to
read their thoughts, because I was never able to quite honor my gut reaction
enough to get that clear about it.
The NVC books are very, very convincing - and I was (almost, not quite)
believing that I must not be doing the NVC right, because it was impossible
to do with 3 kids! Parents of one child looked at me like I just didn't get
it. Three children, all with different needs at any one time - and during
NVC days, a trip to the grocery store was impossible. It simply couldn't
happen, because the negotiating of 4 different people's needs took too long
to get at a mutually satisfactory solution! And, if it's that hard to
learn, I'm never going to get it right in time to reap any benefits from it.
But, suggestions on this list could make a difference in the peace in my
home within minutes.
I have taken and applied some points from NVC, especially looking for
alternative solutions during "conflict" to meet as many needs as possible
that before, I would not have even thought of.
Michele
experience and gut reaction, more with NVC, after trying very hard to use it
for over a year with my family of 3 children, is almost identicle to every
point mentioned so far, mainly by Pam and Sandra. It is very affirming to
read their thoughts, because I was never able to quite honor my gut reaction
enough to get that clear about it.
The NVC books are very, very convincing - and I was (almost, not quite)
believing that I must not be doing the NVC right, because it was impossible
to do with 3 kids! Parents of one child looked at me like I just didn't get
it. Three children, all with different needs at any one time - and during
NVC days, a trip to the grocery store was impossible. It simply couldn't
happen, because the negotiating of 4 different people's needs took too long
to get at a mutually satisfactory solution! And, if it's that hard to
learn, I'm never going to get it right in time to reap any benefits from it.
But, suggestions on this list could make a difference in the peace in my
home within minutes.
I have taken and applied some points from NVC, especially looking for
alternative solutions during "conflict" to meet as many needs as possible
that before, I would not have even thought of.
Michele
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/28/2005 10:06:35 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
brewstersears@... writes:
-=- And, if it's that hard to
learn, I'm never going to get it right in time to reap any benefits from it.
But, suggestions on this list could make a difference in the peace in my
home within minutes.-=-
I think when the goal is doing better, and approaching a kinder, gentler
life, there can be immediate success.
One conversation (in the ancient AOL homeschooling forum days) was a wrastle
about whether compromise was good, and the NCP response was that compromise
is wrong and bad. Asking someone to compromise was coercion.
While I really enjoy discussing the precise meanings of words and their
histories, I was unimpressed by people totally twisting the meaning of word, and
since the term was in the name of the "group"/philosophy (nonCOERCIVE...),
for them to have made up a whole new meaning for it and all kinds of rules was
just irritating.
Coercive meant what they wanted it to mean, it seemed. And they wanted it
to mean pretty much everything the unschoolers were recommending. But they
weren't recommending anything better or clearer or more useful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brewstersears@... writes:
-=- And, if it's that hard to
learn, I'm never going to get it right in time to reap any benefits from it.
But, suggestions on this list could make a difference in the peace in my
home within minutes.-=-
I think when the goal is doing better, and approaching a kinder, gentler
life, there can be immediate success.
One conversation (in the ancient AOL homeschooling forum days) was a wrastle
about whether compromise was good, and the NCP response was that compromise
is wrong and bad. Asking someone to compromise was coercion.
While I really enjoy discussing the precise meanings of words and their
histories, I was unimpressed by people totally twisting the meaning of word, and
since the term was in the name of the "group"/philosophy (nonCOERCIVE...),
for them to have made up a whole new meaning for it and all kinds of rules was
just irritating.
Coercive meant what they wanted it to mean, it seemed. And they wanted it
to mean pretty much everything the unschoolers were recommending. But they
weren't recommending anything better or clearer or more useful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
The NVC books are very, very convincing - and I was (almost, not quite) believing that I must not be doing the NVC right, because it was impossible to do with 3 kids! Parents of one child looked at me like I just didn't get it.
*****
That's exactly what I found -- the ideas sound great in theory, and I'm sure it can work well in families where you have one child and parents committed to respecting the child's wishes. Add another child or two, and there are just times when one child's desires have to take a backseat to a sibling's desires or feelings, with the result being that someone has to be coerced into doing something they didn't choose. And that's not a bad thing. Learning to defer to others in our families, both as a child and as an adult, is a necessary thing, and it's one of the benefits of having siblings.
Sylvia
__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*****
That's exactly what I found -- the ideas sound great in theory, and I'm sure it can work well in families where you have one child and parents committed to respecting the child's wishes. Add another child or two, and there are just times when one child's desires have to take a backseat to a sibling's desires or feelings, with the result being that someone has to be coerced into doing something they didn't choose. And that's not a bad thing. Learning to defer to others in our families, both as a child and as an adult, is a necessary thing, and it's one of the benefits of having siblings.
Sylvia
__________________________________________________
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