Brandie

Recently I posted about finding local unschoolers (thank you to those that responded) so I have been doing a few things to try to find them. And, a few people have written me. Usually a subject line of "I'm an unschooler!" or something similiar. BUT, they aren't. Well, they think they are, but after reading their email to me, I can see that they clearly aren't. Some seem to have an understanding of unschooling, but as one said "we do require chores and reading and phonics everyday, and bible study. Those are things we are not relaxed about". Ugh!

I will try to be patient...the kids and I get so excited about the thought of meeting someone like us in our area. We moved here almost a year ago and still haven't met anyone "like us". It would just be so cool to meet another unschooling family!

Brandie (in Bristol, TN)
dd14, ds13, ds4


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], "Brandie" <brandie@s...>
wrote:
> Some seem to have an understanding of unschooling, but as one
said "we do require chores and reading and phonics everyday, and bible
study. Those are things we are not relaxed about". Ugh!

Ugh is right. If they'd said chores, I would have thought okayyy, I can
see that, but 3 subjects and chores?? Yeh, and I'm thin, rich, and
typing right now. Well, one of three still counts, doesn't it?

And I bet they bake cookies in order to learn fractions, too, instead
of just to have cookies to eat!

Good luck, Brandie.
--aj

jimpetersonl

You might want to try more patience and less "ugh."
Winning more flies with honey and all that; your attitude and
experience might be the one that loosens these families.
:-)
There are a variety of definitions of unschooling (Holt's, for
example, in his advice to Nancy Wallace sounds much more like these
other families you are describing). The HEM-Unschooling list (if
you're interested) is discussing this variety right now.
~Sue

> Recently I posted about finding local unschoolers (thank you to
those that responded) so I have been doing a few things to try to find
them. And, a few people have written me. Usually a subject line of
"I'm an unschooler!" or something similiar. BUT, they aren't. Well,
they think they are, but after reading their email to me, I can see
that they clearly aren't. Some seem to have an understanding of
unschooling, but as one said "we do require chores and reading and
phonics everyday, and bible study. Those are things we are not
relaxed about". Ugh!
>
> I will try to be patient...the kids and I get so excited about the
thought of meeting someone like us in our area. We moved here almost
a year ago and still haven't met anyone "like us". It would just be
so cool to meet another unschooling family!
>
> Brandie (in Bristol, TN)
> dd14, ds13, ds4
>M1119

Julie W

Brandie wrote:

>
> Recently I posted about finding local unschoolers (thank you to those
> that responded) so I have been doing a few things to try to find
> them. And, a few people have written me. Usually a subject line of
> "I'm an unschooler!" or something similiar. BUT, they aren't. Well,
> they think they are, but after reading their email to me, I can see
> that they clearly aren't. Some seem to have an understanding of
> unschooling, but as one said "we do require chores and reading and
> phonics everyday, and bible study. Those are things we are not
> relaxed about". Ugh!
>
> I will try to be patient...the kids and I get so excited about the
> thought of meeting someone like us in our area. We moved here almost
> a year ago and still haven't met anyone "like us". It would just be
> so cool to meet another unschooling family!
>
> Brandie (in Bristol, TN)
> dd14, ds13, ds4
>
>
Its nice to have a real, clear strong idea of what unschooling is, but
you could be missing out on some really cool families. If Tuckervill had
waited to find unschoolers just like her (and God knows I've never been
an unschooler like her) we would have never met her and her kids or all
the other cool families we've known over the last 7 years. Nor had the
privilege of witnessing how her "pure unschooling" works which in turn
has inspired other families.


--

Julie W

http://jwoolfolk.typepad.com/theothermother/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brandie

>Its nice to have a real, clear strong idea of what unschooling is, but
>you could be missing out on some really cool families.

We don't dismiss families just because they don't have a clear idea of what unschooling is. We have met, and created some wonderful friendships, with several families here who either don't unschool or who say they do, but don't *really*, or who don't homeschool at all. I am just expressing how much we wish we *could* find other unschoolers in our area.

Brandie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/25/05 2:11:41 PM, jimpetersonl@... writes:

<< There are a variety of definitions of unschooling (Holt's, for

example, in his advice to Nancy Wallace sounds much more like these

other families you are describing). >>

Do you have a quote for that?

Sandra

Dana Matt

> Its nice to have a real, clear strong idea of what
> unschooling is, but
> you could be missing out on some really cool
> families. If Tuckervill had
> waited to find unschoolers just like her (and God
> knows I've never been
> an unschooler like her) we would have never met her
> and her kids or all
> the other cool families we've known over the last 7
> years. Nor had the
> privilege of witnessing how her "pure unschooling"
> works which in turn
> has inspired other families.

For the most part, I have had better luck with people
who don't claim to be unschoolers, than those who do
claim to be and aren't. I tried to hang out with one
family in particular who was the "We're unschoolers,
but we do math every day, and an hour of reading, and
nature journals, and don't own a tv, and the parents
decide when the children will sleep and what will go
into their mouths....", and they got very bitter and
mean to my kids because "Well, Janey doesn't like your
son because she doesn't think it's fair that he can
eat anything he wants to!" or "Time outs work great in
our house--have you considered using them?" or "Suzy
is bitter because she thinks that your daughter should
have math assingments, too" (said in a voice like *I*
should feel bad about that and start controlliong my
kids....) When we hang out with people who *don't*
claim to be unschoolers, they seem fine to accept that
our families are different, but when we hang out with
wanna-bes, they seem to expect me to act like they
do....

Dana

Guadalupe's Coffee Roaster
100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
http://www.guadalupescoffee.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

nellebelle

I've had similar things happen. I started a yahoo group for local unschoolers and some who have joined do not really understand unschooling. At least they tend to be more relaxed or eclectic homeschoolers, rather than strict school-at-home.

Mary Ellen

----- Original Message ----- Recently I posted about finding local unschoolers (thank you to those that responded) so I have been doing a few things to try to find them. And, a few people have written me. Usually a subject line of "I'm an unschooler!" or something similiar. BUT, they aren't.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

As anybody who has read Holt knows, he changed his tune a lot over the
years. And "unschooling" was his word for not sending kids to school -
no matter what kind of schooling they might have been getting at home.
The meaning has changed, since then. Billy Geer, at FUNBooks, has a
nice little explanation of that development.

These days, unschooling generaly simply means "not schooling" - it
means not imposing schooling on their kids - school-at-home or "just
math" or any other schooling.

If people want to nitpick about how John Holt used a term - they need
to read what he said about the word, "education." I'm not saying they
need to stop using the word, just that they need to realize that how
John Holt happened to define something on any particular occasion might
be very interesting, but should not be considered the final say. Hence,
HEM, for example, felt free to name their magazine Home "EDUCATION"
Magazine, in spite of this definition of the word, education, by John
Holt.

John Holt wrote this about "education".

"I choose to define it here as most people do, something that some
people
do to others for their own good, molding and shaping them, and trying to
make them learn what they thing they ought to know. Today, everywhere in
the world, that is what "education" has become, and I am wholly against
it. People spend a great deal of time- as for years I did myself-
talking about how to make "education" more effective and efficient, or
how to do it or give it to more people, or how to reform or humanize it.
But to make it more effective and efficient will only be to make it
worse, and to help it do even more harm. It cannot be reformed, cannot
be carried out wisely or humanely, because its purpose is neither wise
nor humane. "
~John Holt

-pam


On Apr 25, 2005, at 11:19 AM, jimpetersonl wrote:

> There are a variety of definitions of unschooling (Holt's, for
> example, in his advice to Nancy Wallace sounds much more like these
> other families you are describing). The HEM-Unschooling list (if
> you're interested) is discussing this variety right now.

Elizabeth Hill

**I will try to be patient...the kids and I get so excited about
thethought of meeting someone like us in our area. We moved here almost
a year ago and still haven't met anyone "like us". It would just beso
cool to meet another unschooling family!**

Hi, Brandie --

I sympathize. I moved two years ago and I'm still "settling in".

One of my best friends is planning to move to Knoxville, TN this
summer. I know that's not really close to Bristol, but maybe I could
electronically introduce the two of you and you could pool your
resources in finding sympathetic people. (Her 3 kids are 11.5 to 6.)

I'm trying to convince my friend to widen her acquaintence by coming to
the Live and Learn Conference this summer near St. Louis. I should
disclose that she isn't a full-fledged unschooler, but I find she blends
well with unschoolers. (She does very infrequent workbook lessons with
her kids, who like workbooks, and the rest of the time just lives an
interesting life.)

I've posted looking for unschoolers near me (Benicia, CA), and got two
friendly replies, but both from people that live about 40 miles away. I
find I can socialize and have a pleasant time with non-unschooling moms
IF they are gentle, attachment parenting types. As far as I can see,
kids who sometimes have to pick up toys or who must do piano practice,
still have a pretty high quality of life.

Oh, if you want say kids for your kids to play Playstation with and you
want to weed out all the moms who disapprove of videogames, then forming
a videogaming group would do some of the selection work for you. (Yes,
it sounds like I'm stereotyping your kids based on their ages.)

Are you already cruising the email lists in your state, looking for
prospects<g>

Betsy

PS My 3 relaxed-but-not-unschooling friends will be with me at the HSC
conference in Sacramento this August if anyone wants to eyeball them and
see whether or not they are nice to their kids. <g>

Jason & Stephanie

**I will try to be patient...the kids and I get so excited about
thethought of meeting someone like us in our area. We moved here almost
a year ago and still haven't met anyone "like us". It would just beso
cool to meet another unschooling family!**

****Brandie,
We are planning to move to Tennessee, hopefully by/in the fall. It is around the Nashville area though. I have noticed there isn't a TN unschoolers list for yahoo so I will start one once we move if one hasn't been started by then.

Stephanie in PA
Kieran (9) Brennan(6) Cassandra(5) Jared(2)

True learning- learning that is permanent and useful, that leads to intelligent action
and further learning- can arise only out of the experience, interests and concerns of the learner.
~John Holt

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jimpetersonl

I'm afraid I can't lay my hands on the book at this moment (it's in a
box, waiting to be moved and freed again into circulation), but the
idea can be found in Wallace's _Better Than School: One Family's
Declaration of Independence_

~Sue

> << There are a variety of definitions of unschooling (Holt's, for
> > example, in his advice to Nancy Wallace sounds much more like these
> > other families you are describing). >>
>
> Do you have a quote for that?
>
> Sandra

jimpetersonl

> These days, unschooling generaly simply means "not schooling" - it
> means not imposing schooling on their kids - school-at-home or "just
> math" or any other schooling.
>nitpick > -pam

I agree many people look at it this way.

I just don't agree it's the only way to look at it.
~Sue

John Holt
http://www.holtgws.com/gwsarchives.html#GWS%201
From GWS #2 , Nov. 1978

MIXED ALLIES

Those who read GWS , and want to take or keep their children out of
schools, may have very different, in some cases opposed reasons for
doing this.

Some may feel that the schools are too strict; others that they are
not strict enough.

Some may feel that the schools spend too much time on what they call
the Basics; others that they don't spend enough.

Some may feel that the schools teach a dog-eat-dog competitiveness;
others that they teach a mealy-mouth Socialism.

Some may feel that the schools teach too much religion; others that
they don't teach enough, but teach instead a shallow atheistic
humanism. I think the schools degrade both science and religion, and
do not encourage either strong faith or strong critical thought.

Some feel that the school curriculum is dull, fragmented, devoid of
context, in George Dennison's words, that it destroys "the continuum
of experience." Others may feel that the school curriculum is fine,
but that they don't do a very good job of teaching it.

What is important is not that all readers of GWS should agree on
these questions, but that we should respect our differences while we
work for what we agree on, our right and the right of all people to
take their children out of schools, and help, plan, or direct their
learning in the ways they think best.

In all these matters, we at GWS have our own opinions, and will
express them. This is not going to try or pretend to be an unbiased
publication. We will be very biased. But we will try to be as useful
as possible to all our readers, whether or not we agree with them on
all details. And on the issue about which we are all agreed we will
print as wide a range of ideas and opinions as our readers send us.

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/25/2005 7:31:38 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
jimpetersonl@... writes:

I'm afraid I can't lay my hands on the book at this moment (it's in a
box, waiting to be moved and freed again into circulation), but the
idea can be found in Wallace's _Better Than School: One Family's
Declaration of Independence_



=============

Oh.
I thought since they're discussing it on another list they would have
brought the quote.

-=-. . . but the
idea can be found in Wallace's...

That would be secondary source.

Someone saying that on another list someone is discussing an idea based on
something the author says someone else wrote or said is way beyond tertiary
source.

Let's wait for quotes to discuss.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/25/2005 7:34:34 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
jimpetersonl@... writes:

MIXED ALLIES

Those who read GWS


============

Just because Holt felt GWS could be of use to "allies" didn't mean he
thought all the readers were unschooling in ways he recommended in his writings.

==========

[from the John Holt quote:]
-=-In all these matters, we at GWS have our own opinions, and will
express them. This is not going to try or pretend to be an unbiased
publication. We will be very biased. But we will try to be as useful
as possible to all our readers, whether or not we agree with them on
all details. And on the issue about which we are all agreed we will
print as wide a range of ideas and opinions as our readers send us.-=-


So he was saying that even though he as editor doesn't agree with all the
readers, he's still willing to give them a forum.

I'm interested in what John Holt wrote about how children learn, not in the
full range of what anyone ever thought the first year they tried homeschooling
and wrote to GWS which let them express their opinions in the magazine for
the benefit of other homeschoolers with whom John Holt didn't agree.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

So John lists all the reasons why people might take their kids out of
school and the says this:

On Apr 25, 2005, at 4:21 PM, jimpetersonl wrote:

> What is important is not that all readers of GWS should agree on
> these questions, but that we should respect our differences while we
> work for what we agree on, our right and the right of all people to
> take their children out of schools, and help, plan, or direct their
> learning in the ways they think best.

He recognizes that people reading GFS were not all homeschooling the
same way and says that we should respect our differences - he doesn't
claim that doing school at home is the SAME as not doing school at home
- he says that we're doing different things BUT let's work together for
our right to homeschool - in SPITE of our different reasons or methods.

>
> In all these matters, we at GWS have our own opinions, and will
> express them.

And he expressed, increasingly over the years, his opinion that imposed
schooling was not necessary and he increasingly, over the years,
supported what we NOW call unschooling.

> This is not going to try or pretend to be an unbiased
> publication. We will be very biased. But we will try to be as useful
> as possible to all our readers, whether or not we agree with them on
> all details. And on the issue about which we are all agreed we will
> print as wide a range of ideas and opinions as our readers send us.

In SPITE of the fact that he was strongly biased toward what is now
known as "radical unschooling" - growing increasingly so as he began to
occasionally even address topics like bedtimes and all coercion of
children, etc., the magazine, GWS, was thought by him to be useful to
others and would print a range of ideas and opinions much WIDER than
those he, himself, held.

John Holt would be thrilled with what unschooling has become. He didn't
live to see his ideas so exuberantly accepted and carried out by very
many real families, but if he had lived, he'd have been at the
forefront, as he always was, of this movement - he'd be traveling
around and visiting all of us and seeing what we're doing and writing
about it. He didn't have the advantages that we all have - of the
internet and of day-to-day communication with MANY people who are
taking his ideas and implementing them in their very-real lives.

He wouldn't expect us to stand still and not learn something from our
experiences, either. He certainly never stood still - his ideas
developed and changed and he became more and more radical. I wish he
was here - he'd be an inspiration to us all and, what's more, we'd be
inspirations to him.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

GWS - and pardon other typos in my previous post. I don't usually
correct typos, I think we all make them and can overlook them, but I
didn't want anybody to think I was talking about some other magazine.

-pam

On Apr 25, 2005, at 7:59 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:

> He recognizes that people reading GFS were not all homeschooling the
> same way and says that we should respect our differences - he doesn't
> claim that doing school at home is the SAME as not doing school at home
> - he says that we're doing different things BUT let's work together for
> our right to homeschool - in SPITE of our different reasons or methods.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: jimpetersonl <jimpetersonl@...>


You might want to try more patience and less "ugh."
Winning more flies with honey and all that; your attitude and
experience might be the one that loosens these families.
:-)
There are a variety of definitions of unschooling (Holt's, for
example, in his advice to Nancy Wallace sounds much more like these
other families you are describing). The HEM-Unschooling list (if
you're interested) is discussing this variety right now.
~Sue

-=-=-=-=-=-
Mostly,the HEM-unschooling list spends its time discussing *this*
list, so I don't know that you would find much info there---or serious
unschooling discussion.

Holt's writings in issue #2 of GWS are much more lenient and open than
in his later writings. He got much more radical in his thinking and
writing as the years went on.

I agree with Pam---that he would be proud of what we're promoting here
at U-D, A-L, u-b, shine, A-U and unschooling.info. Not to mention the
conference! <g> I think he'd be delighted to know that a whole bunch of
unschoolers from all over the country (and Canada) get together once a
year to meet and play!

~Kelly


Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/26/05 10:35:55 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< I agree with Pam---that he would be proud of what we're promoting here
at U-D, A-L, u-b, shine, A-U and unschooling.info. Not to mention the
conference! <g> I think he'd be delighted to know that a whole bunch of
unschoolers from all over the country (and Canada) get together once a
year to meet and play! >>

Holt didn't get to live long enough to hang out with kids who had never gone
to school and never BEEN schooled (at home) and were then grown.

We know things Holt never got a chance to know.

Sandra

[email protected]

I just got an e-mail from someone who's not active on this list, but I hope
she'll come over here and at least read.

-=- Some friends of mine (new to unschooling) are forming an unschooling
group. I was disturbed b/c I sensed that they thought unschooling was just
about education. To me, it's more about respecting children and there
choices in all areas. (ie. our 15 yo dd has just started going out with
friends. I asked a board you're on about curfews, limits, etc. You posted
that it was a bad idea. I stopped the curfew and limits and within a couple
of weeks, she was hanging out more at home, bringing her boyfriend over and
now she hardly ever goes out unless it is to a specific event. We are both
much happier!)-=-

This idea comes up from time to time, that maybe there should be more name
than "unschooling" for those who have discovered the joys of extending the
principles into all aspects of their lives. It is WAY bigger and better than just
not using a curriculum. It's life transforming. It's about a whole life, not
just about the hours they might've been in school but are at home.

It's family transforming. Dads have become happier humans. Relationships
between parents and children morph into something almost unrecognizeable in the
larger culture.

But that's where it gets scary. Without the whole family's open involvement,
it can be doomed to failure. Without REALLY doing it, WHOLLY doing it and
deeply, even the "just no curriculum" part is tenuous.

WITH really doing it wholly and deeply, there seems to be no going back.

Sandra

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@...


I just got an e-mail from someone who's not active on this list, but I
hope
she'll come over here and at least read.

-=- Some friends of mine (new to unschooling) are forming an
unschooling
group. I was disturbed b/c I sensed that they thought unschooling was
just
about education. To me, it's more about respecting children and there
choices in all areas. (ie. our 15 yo dd has just started going out
with
friends. I asked a board you're on about curfews, limits, etc. You
posted
that it was a bad idea. I stopped the curfew and limits and within a
couple
of weeks, she was hanging out more at home, bringing her boyfriend over
and
now she hardly ever goes out unless it is to a specific event. We are
both
much happier!)-=-


-=-=-=-=-=-

That was nice to read. Thanks for bringing it here.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

This idea comes up from time to time, that maybe there should be more
name
than "unschooling" for those who have discovered the joys of extending
the
principles into all aspects of their lives. It is WAY bigger and
better than
just
not using a curriculum. It's life transforming. It's about a whole
life, not
just about the hours they might've been in school but are at home.

It's family transforming. Dads have become happier humans.
Relationships
between parents and children morph into something almost
unrecognizeable in the
larger culture.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Ben has said several times that he NEVER wants to be the dad he was
before we found unschooling. That he NEVER wants to be the MAN he was
before we found unschooling.

It IS life-changing---and not just for the kids and NOT just
educationally.

=-=-=-=-=-=-

But that's where it gets scary. Without the whole family's open
involvement,
it can be doomed to failure. Without REALLY doing it, WHOLLY doing it
and
deeply, even the "just no curriculum" part is tenuous.

WITH really doing it wholly and deeply, there seems to be no going back.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

AMEN!

~Kelly

AMEN from Ben too! <g>





Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org

fairy_of_moods

> This idea comes up from time to time, that maybe there should be
more name
> than "unschooling" for those who have discovered the joys of
extending the
> principles into all aspects of their lives. It is WAY bigger and
better than just
> not using a curriculum. It's life transforming. It's about a
whole life, not
> just about the hours they might've been in school but are at
home.
>
> It's family transforming. Dads have become happier humans.
Relationships
> between parents and children morph into something almost
unrecognizeable in the
> larger culture.
>
> But that's where it gets scary. Without the whole family's open
involvement,
> it can be doomed to failure. Without REALLY doing it, WHOLLY
doing it and
> deeply, even the "just no curriculum" part is tenuous.
>
> WITH really doing it wholly and deeply, there seems to be no going
back.
>
> Sandra



I have thought more than once that it might be useful to have some
other term for refering to the philosophy that this list advocates.
If a family does not do school at home, but still has rules about
things like bedtime & chores, then the term unschooling still seems
to fit. (Going by how the word sounds) Then you have families who
apply the philosophy to all aspects of life and you can call them
unschoolers. That is like calling every large woody plant around
your house a tree. It may be true but not very helpful if you are
trying to be specific. Of course you could always use descriptive
words and explanations such as "we live by principles not rules"
or "look for the tree with the deeply lobed leaves". But it is
helpful to have names like maple & oak.

Caprice

Pam Sorooshian

On Apr 26, 2005, at 3:16 PM, fairy_of_moods wrote:

> If a family does not do school at home, but still has rules about
> things like bedtime & chores, then the term unschooling still seems
> to fit.

Unschooling DOES just mean not doing school - and, yes, those with
bedtimes and rules can still be unschoolers.

Truly we haven't claimed different here (except maybe Kelly <BEG>).

But - what we do here is examine, analyze, discuss how what we learn
from unschooling leads to trust in other areas and how unschooling
works when its principles are extended to aspects of life not usually
considered part of "schooling."

I've been referring to the "extended unschooling" ideas discussed here
as "an unschooling lifestyle." Not the best, most clear, terminology,
but at least it points to unschooling ideas being extended to the
entire lifestyle of a family.

-pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/26/2005 10:48:50 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

I've been referring to the "extended unschooling" ideas discussed here
as "an unschooling lifestyle." Not the best, most clear, terminology,
but at least it points to unschooling ideas being extended to the
entire lifestyle of a family.



--------------------------------

It seemed to me when I was first reading GWS (when Kirby was five I
subscribed) and then later reading on *Prodigy and AOL that "radical unschooling"
would have done it. By "radical unschooling" I always thought people meant
"Really unschooling," unschooling completely, or unschooling without reservations.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cordjax

I've been wanting to bring this up for a while, and this discussion
seems a prefect spring board for it. In discussing lables to identify
those that take unschooling principals and apply them to all aspects of
the parent/child relationship...why not NCP(non-coercive parenting)
and/or TCS (Taking Children Seriously)?? I feel like there must be
some (negative)history I'm unaware of with regard to RU'ers and the
NCP/TCS movement/philosophy. In this discussion many have agreed that
you can unschool just in the realm of your children's education, and
still be called an unschooler. But, NCP/TCS is a much broader
philosophy... you really can't be NCP/TCS without being an unschooler
(or at least without being willing to unschool if its what your
children want). Fill me in...is there a rift between these communities
that I'm unaware of?

Carolyn

cordjax

Just a quick follow up. I used NCP and TCS sort of interchangeably in
my last post. I personally prefer the term NCP. Firstly, because it
is more descriptive, and secondly because in my experience, those
calling themselves NCP take the ideas about relationships from the TCS
philosophy and shake away the political/Liberatarian roots. Sort of a
take what you like...and leave the rest.

Carolyn

[email protected]

<< Fill me in...is there a rift between these communities

that I'm unaware of? >>

Yes.
I suppose.
Though I don't think there are "communities" in the sense that it's usually
meant.

I think they spring from two different traditions that can't really meet up
very well. What I've seen of non rift is when a family really likes the NCP
philosophy and jumps straight to that, and it makes their unschooling easier.
What I've seen of rift is when TCS/NCP people criticize unschoolers for ANY
persuasion or inspiration (saying it's coercive) and criticize unschoolers for
sharing personal details of their children's lives.

And from the unschooling point of view (online discussions over a dozen
years), when someone says "I believe this" and another says "How has it worked
out?" and the answer is "I'm not going to tell you," it seems a waste of time to
discuss it much more. But that, I think, is because many unschoolers came out
of La Leche League and other experience-sharing groups and mutual help groups
in which sharing was the core of the whole situation.

So in a way, unschooling is more scientific because we will share evidence
freely back and forth and let other people unschoolers meet and talk with our
kids behind our backs (maybe not all unschoolers, but LOTS). The very few
TCS/NCP people who will share ANYthing won't share real life stories. Their take
seems to be that if the premise is sound that results aren't the point. I
think (and could be wrong) that the premise takes great precedence over the
child's happiness and wellbeing, and it seems to me (personally) that NCP can be a
cop-out for parents who don't have much natural interpersonal skill, and so
they want a cool set of rules to fall back on (and to blame if the outcome
isn't ideal).

For the unschoolers I've liked and respected most, the outcome and the
process WERE important, and the methods were tweaked to get a better outcome (peace,
closeness, learning, joy).

At La Leche League meetings moms hear birth stories and see the babies and
know their names and watch other moms nurse babies and really learn from seeing
and knowing. If the philosophy didn't work, they would see it right away,
clearly. If unschooling didn't work, no one would come to it new, because they
wouldn't see any results to be aimed for or families to be emulated.

Some people reconcile the two in their own minds, but I haven't seen
reconciliation of the methods of helping others understand and implement.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/27/2005 7:28:11 AM Central Standard Time,
cordjax@... writes:

why not NCP(non-coercive parenting)
and/or TCS (Taking Children Seriously)?? I feel like there must be
some (negative)history I'm unaware of with regard to RU'ers and the
NCP/TCS movement/philosophy. In this discussion many have agreed that
you can unschool just in the realm of your children's education, and
still be called an unschooler. But, NCP/TCS is a much broader
philosophy... you really can't be NCP/TCS without being an unschooler
(or at least without being willing to unschool if its what your
children want). Fill me in...is there a rift between these communities
that I'm unaware of?



~~~

I don't think there's a rift, necessarily. After all, unschoolers aren't
some monolithic "community" to have a riff with.

I don't believe the two philosophies are incompatible with each other. I do
believe they are very different and very separate. To me, NCP/TCS puts the
child clearly at the center of the universe, AND creates a vacuum around them
that implies their actions don't influence or harm or benefit others.
Unschooling embraces and encourages the interdependence and mutuality of
relationship between parent and child. An unschooling parent wouldn't have any
problems with asking their child to conider the parent's feelings, needs and
desires in the child's decisions. In my experience with NCP/TCS, the child can
flat out refuse to consider anyone else's feelings, needs and desires, and the
parent would be philosophy-bound not to coerce them in any way, regardless of
the direness of the situation.

The various applications of this philosophy that have been discussed in the
10 years I've been online were always in the hypothetical, with no real-life
examples of win-win. It's always a discussion of what "might" work or what
"could" work, and unschoolers usually can point to something in their
unschooling lives that "has" worked. That's not a criticism of the philosophy
itself, I suppose, but an example of how difficult it is to gain an understanding
of the philosophy as compared to unschooling.

Understanding NCP/TCS can helped me understand unschooling better. It's can
be a subtle difference in any given situation, and so it's hard to explain.
I do carry with me a natural gut-check about coersion because of those
discussions, but it always bumps up against my instincts for relationship,
practicality and self-preservation.

One of the greatest things I learned from the NCP/TCS discussions was the
ideas about time coersion and money coersion. I have a tendency to rush if I'm
late, to my detriment and that of my children. Recognizing that it's the
*time constraints* that is making me rush has helped me be more calm and
peaceful with myself and my kids. And my husband. :)

Karen

www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/27/2005 7:54:12 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

I
think (and could be wrong) that the premise takes great precedence over the
child's happiness and wellbeing, and it seems to me (personally) that NCP
can be a
cop-out for parents who don't have much natural interpersonal skill, and so
they want a cool set of rules to fall back on (and to blame if the outcome
isn't ideal).



~~~

Which is why *many* mainstream parenting philosophies are popular.

Karen

www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>


Truly we haven't claimed different here (except maybe Kelly <BEG>).

-=-=-=-=-=-

Yeah---always the radical!

I *do* believe that unschooling can simply be not schooling at home,
but that MUST include no grades, no (validated) tests (because some
states require testing), no forced reading or math or other 'subjects',
and no concrete academic expectations.

*This* group (well, its loudest proponents!), though, wants people to
see that it can expand further into a child's life (as well as that of
the parents!) and encompass chores, bedtimes, food, curfews---that
principles CAN replace rules and produce results better than rules
could ever dream to. An unschooling lifestyle or life-philosophy can
make the family sweeter and gentler and more generous towards one
another. It can make life joyful and peaceful.

Not doing school at home can't do that. It *can* make learning fun and
enjoyable---but the other parts of life are still lacking *something*
when chores are expected and bedtimes are enforced and food is
restricted and the child's time is not really his own.

I think that's what's missing when people say unschooling doesn't
work---or when they complain that they can't get their kids to do
something. I think they are missing the biggest element of the
unschooling philosophy: that children *can* be trusted and respected.
That they *want* to be good people and *need* to feel appreciated for
who they are, when they are.

Unschooling only academically just doesn't get to the *point*. I think
it shows a lack of trust on the part of the parent.

I like to be trusted. I think my kids do too.

~Kelly


Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org