Intro and ?
mommuller
Hi everyone,
I am new here and wanted to introduce myself. My name is Denise, but
I go by Deece on my yahoo groups. We have 2 dc (ds is 10 and dd is
8). They want to unschool and we are trying it, but boy am I having
a hard time completely letting go. This list has been some great
reading for me. Thanks.
I have a question. Was there a certain age that your children can go
about town on their own? My biggest fear is having my child/ren
abducted or molested and because of my fear, there are things my
children are not allowed to do.
They can go outside and ride their bikes, but they have to stay on
our block and can only go from corner to corner (we are on a block
where the backside is the main street through town). We have allowed
our ds to ride around the block across the street from us, but only
when we are outside. We live a block and a half from a park and I
don't let them go alone, but I have let them run home for something
once we are there. The other thing is that they don't have to ask to
go out, but I need to know they are going so I can keep an eye on
them if I am doing something.
Anyway, am I being paranoid? My dc trust me and I trust them, I
don't trust creepy people who do bad things to little kids and they
are out there. We do have good relationships with our dc and I want
them to have freedoms, but I still feel they are too young to be able
to do somethings (like ride their bikes around the neighborhood
without me or dh along).
Any opinions?
Thanks!
Deece
I am new here and wanted to introduce myself. My name is Denise, but
I go by Deece on my yahoo groups. We have 2 dc (ds is 10 and dd is
8). They want to unschool and we are trying it, but boy am I having
a hard time completely letting go. This list has been some great
reading for me. Thanks.
I have a question. Was there a certain age that your children can go
about town on their own? My biggest fear is having my child/ren
abducted or molested and because of my fear, there are things my
children are not allowed to do.
They can go outside and ride their bikes, but they have to stay on
our block and can only go from corner to corner (we are on a block
where the backside is the main street through town). We have allowed
our ds to ride around the block across the street from us, but only
when we are outside. We live a block and a half from a park and I
don't let them go alone, but I have let them run home for something
once we are there. The other thing is that they don't have to ask to
go out, but I need to know they are going so I can keep an eye on
them if I am doing something.
Anyway, am I being paranoid? My dc trust me and I trust them, I
don't trust creepy people who do bad things to little kids and they
are out there. We do have good relationships with our dc and I want
them to have freedoms, but I still feel they are too young to be able
to do somethings (like ride their bikes around the neighborhood
without me or dh along).
Any opinions?
Thanks!
Deece
queenjane555
> I have a question. Was there a certain age that your children canMy son has, in the past year, started "exploring" our city on his
>go about town on their own?
own. (He turned 8 in Oct.) Last summer, he and his cousin (18 mos
older)would walk anywhere that was within 1-2 miles radius. They
weren't allowed to cross any major streets, but luckily that means
they were still able to access several parks, a "corner" store/gas
station, and even a Chinese restaurant. I'm more uncomfortable
letting my son explore alone, without his cousin, esp since she
tends to be the more cautious "dont break any rules" type, and he is
more fearless. She told me about how he crossed a busy street but
she wouldnt do it because she knew it wasnt allowed. I had to
explain to him more clearly why he needed to stay within the
boundaries i set, and not cross the "traffic light" streets.
One thing i do, that makes me feel tons better, is give my son my
cell phone (preprogrammed with our number so he can just hit the
call button)so he can call me if there is any trouble, he is lost,
or is too tired and needs a ride home. This actually came in handy
when my niece cut her toe pretty badly while they were hiking
through a "trail" (just a woodsy area in the park)...they handled
the situation very calmly, and i was able to bring bandaids, and
drive them home.
We live in a very safe area, which is relatively crime-free (maybe
one murder in the past 20 years, and it wasnt random)...however, i
still go over safety issues with my son and what to do if someone
approaches him.
I dont know how safe the area is where you live, but with kids being
kidnapped right out of their bedrooms, it doesnt seem like keeping
them at home is going to necessarily "protect" them. If you live in
a relatively safe area, i would let them go explore together. And if
you have a cell phone you can loan them for their trips, it would
probably make you feel better that you can call them, or they call
you, if needed.
Katherine
[email protected]
Deece,
The best answer is, "It depends." It depends on your neighborhood, the
size of your city/town, your children's maturity levels, the amount of
traffic betwen your house and the park, your comfort level, their
comfort levels, .....
It's much bigger than just that they're ten and eight!
If you're comfortable with their riding their bikes there and playing
----have you thought of walkie-talkies? When we go to Lake Eden Arts
Festival, we have four walkie-talkies that we each carry. That gives
everyone a certain amount of freedom while still being "connected" We
also feel *very* safe at LEAF---very family friendly.
One of Cameron's friends always carried a walkie-talkie when they used
to go to the park---that gave us the idea. I think they all went down
to the park together at ten or eleven---but they had to go as a group.
Funny thing was: all these boys (and Kim) lived in the same
neighborhood, but they didn't know each other for years because Cameron
and Deveon were only allowed to ride around *this* block; Thomas and
Mark were only allowed to ride around *that* block, Kim and and Paschal
were only allowed to ride around *the other* block!
It wasn't until they started playing baseball together that we realized
that bring allowed to go another few yards would have given them all
more friends! <G> They had several great years together as a "gang"----
until they got cars!
Again---it depends.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
-----Original Message-----
From: mommuller <deece@...>
I have a question. Was there a certain age that your children can go
about town on their own? My biggest fear is having my child/ren
abducted or molested and because of my fear, there are things my
children are not allowed to do.
They can go outside and ride their bikes, but they have to stay on
our block and can only go from corner to corner (we are on a block
where the backside is the main street through town). We have allowed
our ds to ride around the block across the street from us, but only
when we are outside. We live a block and a half from a park and I
don't let them go alone, but I have let them run home for something
once we are there. The other thing is that they don't have to ask to
go out, but I need to know they are going so I can keep an eye on
them if I am doing something.
Anyway, am I being paranoid? My dc trust me and I trust them, I
don't trust creepy people who do bad things to little kids and they
are out there. We do have good relationships with our dc and I want
them to have freedoms, but I still feel they are too young to be able
to do somethings (like ride their bikes around the neighborhood
without me or dh along).
Any opinions?
Thanks!
Deece
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
The best answer is, "It depends." It depends on your neighborhood, the
size of your city/town, your children's maturity levels, the amount of
traffic betwen your house and the park, your comfort level, their
comfort levels, .....
It's much bigger than just that they're ten and eight!
If you're comfortable with their riding their bikes there and playing
----have you thought of walkie-talkies? When we go to Lake Eden Arts
Festival, we have four walkie-talkies that we each carry. That gives
everyone a certain amount of freedom while still being "connected" We
also feel *very* safe at LEAF---very family friendly.
One of Cameron's friends always carried a walkie-talkie when they used
to go to the park---that gave us the idea. I think they all went down
to the park together at ten or eleven---but they had to go as a group.
Funny thing was: all these boys (and Kim) lived in the same
neighborhood, but they didn't know each other for years because Cameron
and Deveon were only allowed to ride around *this* block; Thomas and
Mark were only allowed to ride around *that* block, Kim and and Paschal
were only allowed to ride around *the other* block!
It wasn't until they started playing baseball together that we realized
that bring allowed to go another few yards would have given them all
more friends! <G> They had several great years together as a "gang"----
until they got cars!
Again---it depends.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
-----Original Message-----
From: mommuller <deece@...>
I have a question. Was there a certain age that your children can go
about town on their own? My biggest fear is having my child/ren
abducted or molested and because of my fear, there are things my
children are not allowed to do.
They can go outside and ride their bikes, but they have to stay on
our block and can only go from corner to corner (we are on a block
where the backside is the main street through town). We have allowed
our ds to ride around the block across the street from us, but only
when we are outside. We live a block and a half from a park and I
don't let them go alone, but I have let them run home for something
once we are there. The other thing is that they don't have to ask to
go out, but I need to know they are going so I can keep an eye on
them if I am doing something.
Anyway, am I being paranoid? My dc trust me and I trust them, I
don't trust creepy people who do bad things to little kids and they
are out there. We do have good relationships with our dc and I want
them to have freedoms, but I still feel they are too young to be able
to do somethings (like ride their bikes around the neighborhood
without me or dh along).
Any opinions?
Thanks!
Deece
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
averyschmidt
> I have a question. Was there a certain age that your children cango
> about town on their own? My biggest fear is having my child/renI'm going through this right now with my 10 and 12yo sons. We live
> abducted or molested and because of my fear, there are things my
> children are not allowed to do.
in a small town where most, if not all, kids are pretty free on
their bikes. I'm not entirely uncomfortable with it but my fears
are different from yours- I'm mostly worried about traffic and crazy
drivers. I realize that I'm borderline irrational about it, though,
and I'm trying not to let that extreme fear rub off on them.
Caution and care, yes- unfounded fear, no. It's definitely a hard
distinction to make, but I'm working on it!
There's a book called Protecting the Gift (by Gavin de Becker I
think) that talks a lot about this sort of thing, and frequently
mentions child abductors. His theory (and what he means by the
title) is that true, reality-based fear (our built in radar for true
danger) is a *gift* that helps alert us to potential dangers, but if
we let ourselves become irrationally afraid and see danger literally
everywhere (like the idea of "stranger danger" that's pushed on
children) we will lose that gift. I have a tendency to imagine the
worst and then become afraid that it will happen- definitely *not* a
good way to "protect the gift."
Come to think of it, I think I'll give that book a second read
myself! :-)
Patti
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/18/2005 6:16:16 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
queenjane555@... writes:
I dont know how safe the area is where you live, but with kids being
kidnapped right out of their bedrooms, it doesnt seem like keeping
them at home is going to necessarily "protect" them.
============
True. And just as statistically people are more likely to die of a tornado
if they're Baptist (and Baptists in trailer parks shouldn't expect to live at
all)...
Statistically...
Homeschooled kids are more likely (statistically) to be murdered by their
mothers than snatched from a public park. I think we're up to ten or so (in
batches, not singles that I know of) on the first and zero on the second.
Statistically.
Baptist and homechooling makes it more dangerous. If one doesn't die of the
tornado, mom might drown or bash with rock.
(Humor, but humor based on truth and statistics.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555@... writes:
I dont know how safe the area is where you live, but with kids being
kidnapped right out of their bedrooms, it doesnt seem like keeping
them at home is going to necessarily "protect" them.
============
True. And just as statistically people are more likely to die of a tornado
if they're Baptist (and Baptists in trailer parks shouldn't expect to live at
all)...
Statistically...
Homeschooled kids are more likely (statistically) to be murdered by their
mothers than snatched from a public park. I think we're up to ten or so (in
batches, not singles that I know of) on the first and zero on the second.
Statistically.
Baptist and homechooling makes it more dangerous. If one doesn't die of the
tornado, mom might drown or bash with rock.
(Humor, but humor based on truth and statistics.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
patricia tidmore
I am still trying to understand how exactly unschooling works.(I am one of those folks that have been lurking,trying to figure it out.)
If you don't set rules,then how do you go about not allowing your children to go about town if you feel they are not mature enough?
I am like Bob,I just don't get it!Although it only took him a few days and he got it!
I have been at it for over a yr,went to the conference last yr,and I still just for the life of me can't
seem "to get"how it works. like what if your 4 yr old said Mom,I am going to go to Wal-Mart
I will be back this afternoon.......how do you do it?
Call me a fruit cake but I just don't get it!!
And folks I REALLY want too!!
love~Pat
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
Deece,
The best answer is, "It depends." It depends on your neighborhood, the
size of your city/town, your children's maturity levels, the amount of
traffic betwen your house and the park, your comfort level, their
comfort levels, .....
It's much bigger than just that they're ten and eight!
If you're comfortable with their riding their bikes there and playing
----have you thought of walkie-talkies? When we go to Lake Eden Arts
Festival, we have four walkie-talkies that we each carry. That gives
everyone a certain amount of freedom while still being "connected" We
also feel *very* safe at LEAF---very family friendly.
One of Cameron's friends always carried a walkie-talkie when they used
to go to the park---that gave us the idea. I think they all went down
to the park together at ten or eleven---but they had to go as a group.
Funny thing was: all these boys (and Kim) lived in the same
neighborhood, but they didn't know each other for years because Cameron
and Deveon were only allowed to ride around *this* block; Thomas and
Mark were only allowed to ride around *that* block, Kim and and Paschal
were only allowed to ride around *the other* block!
It wasn't until they started playing baseball together that we realized
that bring allowed to go another few yards would have given them all
more friends! <G> They had several great years together as a "gang"----
until they got cars!
Again---it depends.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
-----Original Message-----
From: mommuller <deece@...>
I have a question. Was there a certain age that your children can go
about town on their own? My biggest fear is having my child/ren
abducted or molested and because of my fear, there are things my
children are not allowed to do.
They can go outside and ride their bikes, but they have to stay on
our block and can only go from corner to corner (we are on a block
where the backside is the main street through town). We have allowed
our ds to ride around the block across the street from us, but only
when we are outside. We live a block and a half from a park and I
don't let them go alone, but I have let them run home for something
once we are there. The other thing is that they don't have to ask to
go out, but I need to know they are going so I can keep an eye on
them if I am doing something.
Anyway, am I being paranoid? My dc trust me and I trust them, I
don't trust creepy people who do bad things to little kids and they
are out there. We do have good relationships with our dc and I want
them to have freedoms, but I still feel they are too young to be able
to do somethings (like ride their bikes around the neighborhood
without me or dh along).
Any opinions?
Thanks!
Deece
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you don't set rules,then how do you go about not allowing your children to go about town if you feel they are not mature enough?
I am like Bob,I just don't get it!Although it only took him a few days and he got it!
I have been at it for over a yr,went to the conference last yr,and I still just for the life of me can't
seem "to get"how it works. like what if your 4 yr old said Mom,I am going to go to Wal-Mart
I will be back this afternoon.......how do you do it?
Call me a fruit cake but I just don't get it!!
And folks I REALLY want too!!
love~Pat
kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
Deece,
The best answer is, "It depends." It depends on your neighborhood, the
size of your city/town, your children's maturity levels, the amount of
traffic betwen your house and the park, your comfort level, their
comfort levels, .....
It's much bigger than just that they're ten and eight!
If you're comfortable with their riding their bikes there and playing
----have you thought of walkie-talkies? When we go to Lake Eden Arts
Festival, we have four walkie-talkies that we each carry. That gives
everyone a certain amount of freedom while still being "connected" We
also feel *very* safe at LEAF---very family friendly.
One of Cameron's friends always carried a walkie-talkie when they used
to go to the park---that gave us the idea. I think they all went down
to the park together at ten or eleven---but they had to go as a group.
Funny thing was: all these boys (and Kim) lived in the same
neighborhood, but they didn't know each other for years because Cameron
and Deveon were only allowed to ride around *this* block; Thomas and
Mark were only allowed to ride around *that* block, Kim and and Paschal
were only allowed to ride around *the other* block!
It wasn't until they started playing baseball together that we realized
that bring allowed to go another few yards would have given them all
more friends! <G> They had several great years together as a "gang"----
until they got cars!
Again---it depends.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
-----Original Message-----
From: mommuller <deece@...>
I have a question. Was there a certain age that your children can go
about town on their own? My biggest fear is having my child/ren
abducted or molested and because of my fear, there are things my
children are not allowed to do.
They can go outside and ride their bikes, but they have to stay on
our block and can only go from corner to corner (we are on a block
where the backside is the main street through town). We have allowed
our ds to ride around the block across the street from us, but only
when we are outside. We live a block and a half from a park and I
don't let them go alone, but I have let them run home for something
once we are there. The other thing is that they don't have to ask to
go out, but I need to know they are going so I can keep an eye on
them if I am doing something.
Anyway, am I being paranoid? My dc trust me and I trust them, I
don't trust creepy people who do bad things to little kids and they
are out there. We do have good relationships with our dc and I want
them to have freedoms, but I still feel they are too young to be able
to do somethings (like ride their bikes around the neighborhood
without me or dh along).
Any opinions?
Thanks!
Deece
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
patricia tidmore
Sorry I forgot to say that my 9 yr old is bipolar and ODD.I am sure this will make a difference.
Thanks~Pat
in a small town where most, if not all, kids are pretty free on
their bikes. I'm not entirely uncomfortable with it but my fears
are different from yours- I'm mostly worried about traffic and crazy
drivers. I realize that I'm borderline irrational about it, though,
and I'm trying not to let that extreme fear rub off on them.
Caution and care, yes- unfounded fear, no. It's definitely a hard
distinction to make, but I'm working on it!
There's a book called Protecting the Gift (by Gavin de Becker I
think) that talks a lot about this sort of thing, and frequently
mentions child abductors. His theory (and what he means by the
title) is that true, reality-based fear (our built in radar for true
danger) is a *gift* that helps alert us to potential dangers, but if
we let ourselves become irrationally afraid and see danger literally
everywhere (like the idea of "stranger danger" that's pushed on
children) we will lose that gift. I have a tendency to imagine the
worst and then become afraid that it will happen- definitely *not* a
good way to "protect the gift."
Come to think of it, I think I'll give that book a second read
myself! :-)
Patti
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks~Pat
> I have a question. Was there a certain age that your children cango
> about town on their own? My biggest fear is having my child/renI'm going through this right now with my 10 and 12yo sons. We live
> abducted or molested and because of my fear, there are things my
> children are not allowed to do.
in a small town where most, if not all, kids are pretty free on
their bikes. I'm not entirely uncomfortable with it but my fears
are different from yours- I'm mostly worried about traffic and crazy
drivers. I realize that I'm borderline irrational about it, though,
and I'm trying not to let that extreme fear rub off on them.
Caution and care, yes- unfounded fear, no. It's definitely a hard
distinction to make, but I'm working on it!
There's a book called Protecting the Gift (by Gavin de Becker I
think) that talks a lot about this sort of thing, and frequently
mentions child abductors. His theory (and what he means by the
title) is that true, reality-based fear (our built in radar for true
danger) is a *gift* that helps alert us to potential dangers, but if
we let ourselves become irrationally afraid and see danger literally
everywhere (like the idea of "stranger danger" that's pushed on
children) we will lose that gift. I have a tendency to imagine the
worst and then become afraid that it will happen- definitely *not* a
good way to "protect the gift."
Come to think of it, I think I'll give that book a second read
myself! :-)
Patti
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/18/2005 5:27:05 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
deece@... writes:
Was there a certain age that your children can go
about town on their own?
============
Not "a certain age," no.
We used to live a couple of blocks from a card shop (baseball and gaming
cards) and I have a photo of the first time all three of my kids left together,
alone. I hope to get it scanned in. It's taped up downstairs with that plan.
Looks like Holly was two, so the others would've been five and seven or so.
I remember that moment. I had the phone number where they were going, and
could've run there in three minutes or driven in one. But the symbolism of
it was huge.
The next time that happened was just last fall, when Marty had just started
driving alone and went to a card tournament 15 miles away alone, Holly had
gone out with a teenaged friend, and Kirby was at work. All three GONE, no
two together. None with a parent or another family's parent. (Turned out
Holly and the friend ate and then went to hang out where Kirby worked, so they
weren't as scattered in reality as in my imagination.)
Different things, different ways. Rather than have a rule that says "When
you're 12 you can go," treat each instance on its own merits and realities,
and build up as the child gains confidence and ability.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
deece@... writes:
Was there a certain age that your children can go
about town on their own?
============
Not "a certain age," no.
We used to live a couple of blocks from a card shop (baseball and gaming
cards) and I have a photo of the first time all three of my kids left together,
alone. I hope to get it scanned in. It's taped up downstairs with that plan.
Looks like Holly was two, so the others would've been five and seven or so.
I remember that moment. I had the phone number where they were going, and
could've run there in three minutes or driven in one. But the symbolism of
it was huge.
The next time that happened was just last fall, when Marty had just started
driving alone and went to a card tournament 15 miles away alone, Holly had
gone out with a teenaged friend, and Kirby was at work. All three GONE, no
two together. None with a parent or another family's parent. (Turned out
Holly and the friend ate and then went to hang out where Kirby worked, so they
weren't as scattered in reality as in my imagination.)
Different things, different ways. Rather than have a rule that says "When
you're 12 you can go," treat each instance on its own merits and realities,
and build up as the child gains confidence and ability.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
April M
Statitistics can be fun....of all my college classes, I think statistics is
the one that I've used the most. It taught me to question the data behind
statistics, to look at the difference between correlation and causal and be
very aware of how anything with statistics is phrased and the purpose of the
person or group using the data.....
~April
Mom to Kate-18, Lisa-16, Karl-13, & Ben-9.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
* Michigan Unschoolers...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/
"What one knows is, in youth, of little moment; they know enough who know
how to learn."
Henry Brooks Adams (1838-1918)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of
SandraDodd@...
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 10:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Intro and ?
In a message dated 4/18/2005 6:16:16 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
queenjane555@... writes:
I dont know how safe the area is where you live, but with kids being
kidnapped right out of their bedrooms, it doesnt seem like keeping
them at home is going to necessarily "protect" them.
============
True. And just as statistically people are more likely to die of a tornado
if they're Baptist (and Baptists in trailer parks shouldn't expect to live
at
all)...
Statistically...
Homeschooled kids are more likely (statistically) to be murdered by their
mothers than snatched from a public park. I think we're up to ten or
so (in
batches, not singles that I know of) on the first and zero on the second.
Statistically.
Baptist and homechooling makes it more dangerous. If one doesn't die of
the
tornado, mom might drown or bash with rock.
(Humor, but humor based on truth and statistics.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the one that I've used the most. It taught me to question the data behind
statistics, to look at the difference between correlation and causal and be
very aware of how anything with statistics is phrased and the purpose of the
person or group using the data.....
~April
Mom to Kate-18, Lisa-16, Karl-13, & Ben-9.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
* Michigan Unschoolers...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/
"What one knows is, in youth, of little moment; they know enough who know
how to learn."
Henry Brooks Adams (1838-1918)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of
SandraDodd@...
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 10:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Intro and ?
In a message dated 4/18/2005 6:16:16 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
queenjane555@... writes:
I dont know how safe the area is where you live, but with kids being
kidnapped right out of their bedrooms, it doesnt seem like keeping
them at home is going to necessarily "protect" them.
============
True. And just as statistically people are more likely to die of a tornado
if they're Baptist (and Baptists in trailer parks shouldn't expect to live
at
all)...
Statistically...
Homeschooled kids are more likely (statistically) to be murdered by their
mothers than snatched from a public park. I think we're up to ten or
so (in
batches, not singles that I know of) on the first and zero on the second.
Statistically.
Baptist and homechooling makes it more dangerous. If one doesn't die of
the
tornado, mom might drown or bash with rock.
(Humor, but humor based on truth and statistics.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/18/2005 9:10:01 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
ptidmore1117@... writes:
-=-If you don't set rules,then how do you go about not allowing your
children to go about town if you feel they are not mature enough?-=-
Rather than using broad definitions or proclamations like "you're not old
enough" or "you're not mature enough" (condemnations), break it down into the
REAL factors. And don't wait until a child is ready to go out for hours.
Start with the five minute trips, the twenty minute biked rides. It's not an
all or nothing thing.
Are they careful about traffic?
Do they always let you know where they'll be and then BE there?
Would they know what to do in an emergency?
Will someone be with them?
-=-like what if your 4 yr old said Mom,I am going to go to Wal-Mart
I will be back this afternoon.......-=-
Has that happened to you?
I've had three four year olds and none of them ever wanted to go off all
alone.
Once someone used the example that without rules and controls, a child might
want to get in the car and drive to grandma's house. I said simply that my
keys are hanging by the door. Using wild examples doesn't help.
Speculating wildly only scares the mom and muddies the waters of logic and of living
right in the moment.
And when I say "stop wild thinking," the accusation comes back that I'm in
denial and just don't want to face "real questions." I LOVE to face real
questions. Tell us what your child REALLY wants to do.
_http://sandradodd.com/rules_ (http://sandradodd.com/rules)
_http://sandradodd.com/benrules_ (http://sandradodd.com/benrules)
There's a link there to an article Danielle Conger had published, and if you
read those things don't skim them and say "read them." Read a line a day,
if you have to, to let it sink in and to see how it fits in YOUR life.
Because of school, I think, because of what school calls reading, people
will go to a webpage, move their eyes back and forth as they scroll down, sound
the words out in their mind, close the page and say "I read it."
That's not useful real-world reading for personal benefit. That's tagging
it school-style. I'm not saying you've done that, but it's happened a couple
of times lately and so I wanted to bring it up in a conversation where people
are saying "I really want to get it," and that MIGHT be the problem. Too
much mental noise, not enough stillness and acceptance. People have to stop
what they're doing before they can do something else. People have to stop
walking the wrong way before they can look and decide which new way to go.
Trotting along the wrong direction while calling out over one's shoulder that they
don't understand that other trail isn't the way to change.
Two other possible helps:
_http://sandradodd.com/morning_ (http://sandradodd.com/morning)
_http://sandradodd.com/deschooling_ (http://sandradodd.com/deschooling)
(the zen tea story up top)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ptidmore1117@... writes:
-=-If you don't set rules,then how do you go about not allowing your
children to go about town if you feel they are not mature enough?-=-
Rather than using broad definitions or proclamations like "you're not old
enough" or "you're not mature enough" (condemnations), break it down into the
REAL factors. And don't wait until a child is ready to go out for hours.
Start with the five minute trips, the twenty minute biked rides. It's not an
all or nothing thing.
Are they careful about traffic?
Do they always let you know where they'll be and then BE there?
Would they know what to do in an emergency?
Will someone be with them?
-=-like what if your 4 yr old said Mom,I am going to go to Wal-Mart
I will be back this afternoon.......-=-
Has that happened to you?
I've had three four year olds and none of them ever wanted to go off all
alone.
Once someone used the example that without rules and controls, a child might
want to get in the car and drive to grandma's house. I said simply that my
keys are hanging by the door. Using wild examples doesn't help.
Speculating wildly only scares the mom and muddies the waters of logic and of living
right in the moment.
And when I say "stop wild thinking," the accusation comes back that I'm in
denial and just don't want to face "real questions." I LOVE to face real
questions. Tell us what your child REALLY wants to do.
_http://sandradodd.com/rules_ (http://sandradodd.com/rules)
_http://sandradodd.com/benrules_ (http://sandradodd.com/benrules)
There's a link there to an article Danielle Conger had published, and if you
read those things don't skim them and say "read them." Read a line a day,
if you have to, to let it sink in and to see how it fits in YOUR life.
Because of school, I think, because of what school calls reading, people
will go to a webpage, move their eyes back and forth as they scroll down, sound
the words out in their mind, close the page and say "I read it."
That's not useful real-world reading for personal benefit. That's tagging
it school-style. I'm not saying you've done that, but it's happened a couple
of times lately and so I wanted to bring it up in a conversation where people
are saying "I really want to get it," and that MIGHT be the problem. Too
much mental noise, not enough stillness and acceptance. People have to stop
what they're doing before they can do something else. People have to stop
walking the wrong way before they can look and decide which new way to go.
Trotting along the wrong direction while calling out over one's shoulder that they
don't understand that other trail isn't the way to change.
Two other possible helps:
_http://sandradodd.com/morning_ (http://sandradodd.com/morning)
_http://sandradodd.com/deschooling_ (http://sandradodd.com/deschooling)
(the zen tea story up top)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
You have to take each moment as it comes with the children and also know
your kids. Each child is different as is each circumstance as is each
household and town.
My oldest now, being a schooled child was different at the ages my two
middle ones are now. She wanted to go out on her bike alone and ride around.
At the time, in that neighborhood, I wasn't comfortable with it. I explained
that it was my comfort level and not her. With the way she looked at the age
of 13, her being rather naive and where we lived, she was only able to ride
up and down the block alone. If I couldn't walk outside and see her down the
street, I wasn't comfortable.
By the time she was 14, things changed a lot. We moved and she grew up
rather quick. So she was out and about for long walks and bike rides alone.
She also had a cell phone and was always good about keeping in touch with me
on her own. She's 19 now and incredibly responsible and careful. She goes
out for the whole day taking her 3 younger sisters and brother with her and
I never worry one bit.
The 3 younger ones are 10, 9 and 4. They don't ride bikes because they just
don't like to. The have scooters but only want to go out and ride them with
us walking with them. They love walks but never go out alone. They just
never have asked. They have never been to school and all their friends are
homeschoolers. They are extremely comfortable being around the family and
don't like being much of anywhere alone. My son (10) even declined on
staying home alone with his dad sleeping in the bedroom and chose to leave
with his grandma instead. He also doesn't like to stay up after I've gone to
bed.
All 3 of the younger ones always ask before going out in the yard. They
generally only go out back, which is completely fenced in with a privacy
fence. They never just go out. It was a never a rule, it's just what they
do. Then again, they ask for a drink of water too. It's just the way they
are. Sometimes I wonder why they do ask so much when the answer is never no.
(as far as eating and going out) That's just them. And I'm comfortable with
that. Makes me feel that when they are ready, they will know it.
Every once in awhile they want to go out front alone. Alone being all 3
together. They ask, and they never go farther than the front sidewalk.
Again, no rules, just them. So it seems like starting with what is
comfortable and explaining things at a young age has my children not asking
for things that would make me wonder what to do. When we go to one
particular park, where there are lots of woods, the kids all stay together.
(with friends) All the kids are very careful to stay around the area and at
least stay with one other person. Us moms joke about how no one would ever
come and take our kids because if they took one, they would have to take
them all!!!!
If we go somewhere unfamiliar or large, like a zoo or something, the kids
know to stay close. If they can't see me, then I can't see them. That's
something I ask of them and there is never any problem with that. So again,
each circumstance is handled as it comes.
Mary B
your kids. Each child is different as is each circumstance as is each
household and town.
My oldest now, being a schooled child was different at the ages my two
middle ones are now. She wanted to go out on her bike alone and ride around.
At the time, in that neighborhood, I wasn't comfortable with it. I explained
that it was my comfort level and not her. With the way she looked at the age
of 13, her being rather naive and where we lived, she was only able to ride
up and down the block alone. If I couldn't walk outside and see her down the
street, I wasn't comfortable.
By the time she was 14, things changed a lot. We moved and she grew up
rather quick. So she was out and about for long walks and bike rides alone.
She also had a cell phone and was always good about keeping in touch with me
on her own. She's 19 now and incredibly responsible and careful. She goes
out for the whole day taking her 3 younger sisters and brother with her and
I never worry one bit.
The 3 younger ones are 10, 9 and 4. They don't ride bikes because they just
don't like to. The have scooters but only want to go out and ride them with
us walking with them. They love walks but never go out alone. They just
never have asked. They have never been to school and all their friends are
homeschoolers. They are extremely comfortable being around the family and
don't like being much of anywhere alone. My son (10) even declined on
staying home alone with his dad sleeping in the bedroom and chose to leave
with his grandma instead. He also doesn't like to stay up after I've gone to
bed.
All 3 of the younger ones always ask before going out in the yard. They
generally only go out back, which is completely fenced in with a privacy
fence. They never just go out. It was a never a rule, it's just what they
do. Then again, they ask for a drink of water too. It's just the way they
are. Sometimes I wonder why they do ask so much when the answer is never no.
(as far as eating and going out) That's just them. And I'm comfortable with
that. Makes me feel that when they are ready, they will know it.
Every once in awhile they want to go out front alone. Alone being all 3
together. They ask, and they never go farther than the front sidewalk.
Again, no rules, just them. So it seems like starting with what is
comfortable and explaining things at a young age has my children not asking
for things that would make me wonder what to do. When we go to one
particular park, where there are lots of woods, the kids all stay together.
(with friends) All the kids are very careful to stay around the area and at
least stay with one other person. Us moms joke about how no one would ever
come and take our kids because if they took one, they would have to take
them all!!!!
If we go somewhere unfamiliar or large, like a zoo or something, the kids
know to stay close. If they can't see me, then I can't see them. That's
something I ask of them and there is never any problem with that. So again,
each circumstance is handled as it comes.
Mary B
sheila
"If you don't set rules,then how do you go about not allowing your children to go about town if you feel they are not mature enough?"
Try to find a way to allow them to do what they want in a way that's comfortable for you too.
It's about looking at the principle of safety realistically instead of just arbitrarily saying, "No kid can go farther than the block by himself until he's 12 years old".
Every time they want to do something might be different. If there's a really good reason why you don't think something's a good idea, don't just say no. Discuss why you don't think it's a good idea with them. See if you can come up with a safer plan together. My kids are used to me trying to find a way to say yes to them, so when I have to say no for safety reasons, they usually think the explanation why I'm saying no makes sense. We're usually able to find a happy alternative.
"like what if your 4 yr old said Mom,I am going to go to Wal-Mart
I will be back this afternoon.......how do you do it?"
Can you go with him?
My kids and I have a plan to walk to wal-mart through the woods. Dh and I are each going to park a car at wal-mart, then drive home together. The kids and I are going to hike through the woods (woods are a few blocks from our house) to wal-mart (we'll come out in the woods behind wal-mart), and go to our car in the parking lot and drive home. They're pretty excited about it.
I don't think it would be wise for my kids to walk to wal-mart by the highway, because the traffic can be pretty heavy. But if they really wanted to, I'd go with them.
Sheila
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Try to find a way to allow them to do what they want in a way that's comfortable for you too.
It's about looking at the principle of safety realistically instead of just arbitrarily saying, "No kid can go farther than the block by himself until he's 12 years old".
Every time they want to do something might be different. If there's a really good reason why you don't think something's a good idea, don't just say no. Discuss why you don't think it's a good idea with them. See if you can come up with a safer plan together. My kids are used to me trying to find a way to say yes to them, so when I have to say no for safety reasons, they usually think the explanation why I'm saying no makes sense. We're usually able to find a happy alternative.
"like what if your 4 yr old said Mom,I am going to go to Wal-Mart
I will be back this afternoon.......how do you do it?"
Can you go with him?
My kids and I have a plan to walk to wal-mart through the woods. Dh and I are each going to park a car at wal-mart, then drive home together. The kids and I are going to hike through the woods (woods are a few blocks from our house) to wal-mart (we'll come out in the woods behind wal-mart), and go to our car in the parking lot and drive home. They're pretty excited about it.
I don't think it would be wise for my kids to walk to wal-mart by the highway, because the traffic can be pretty heavy. But if they really wanted to, I'd go with them.
Sheila
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/18/2005 11:06:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ptidmore1117@... writes:
think I have always been an unschooler. Well, I was until I lost my nerve and
sent ds to Kindergarten the first year I would have to account for him. And I
only say "think" because it never had a name before it came time to
"homeschool". I had always wanted to homeschool and we have been a family of natural
learning since day one. When it came time to think about the "red tape"
involved, I lost my nerve. Then got it back after tons of researching. When I
researched, I heard the term "unschooler" and I read up on it and realized that it
described our home in almost all aspects.
One thing I never understood is, why call in un"school"ing? It still
contained "school" and that is totally NOT what we do. Deschool, I get. Unschool, I
don't. That's just me. Life learner, natural learner, freethinker-they're
all too wordy, so I guess unschooler works. I have heard of SOOOO many things
since I began this "labeled" journey. Before we had a label, it all seemed
easier. When you define yourself, that's when people ask questions and the
stories begin. Most helpful and enlightening, others not so.
For us it boils down to being there for our kids first and foremost. We help
them find answers to their questions. We never shhh! or demean something
that is important to them. Even when I've heard about all I can stand of the
latest cartoon craze or whatever has them all in a blur, I bare with it. This is
their time and I want for them to be able to do and feel and see and smell
and touch and think about whatever pops into their heads. In the same process
we still have limits or rules. We are not so loose that the kids would be in
danger or disruptive to others. We help them make choices, we set examples.
An example of our "rules", (never written or set in stone, but used):
Eating: Please try everything, but you never have to eat anything you don't
want to.
Bathroom things: We bathe, brush, wash everyday. We just don't have a set
schedule. If the kids hang out in pj's the whole day-cool. Eventually we will
wash up.
Cleaning up: We put away our stuff to make room for more stuff. If said
stuff is still being used or we're coming back later, so be it. Dishes and
things, when we're done, we wash. If we're in the middle of something then it can
wait but if not we do it real quick so there's lots of time later to do other
things without interruption. I am needed 24/7 and if I have a ton of dishes
or chores, then I'm not as available as they or I like. So we or I do little
bits here and there. Mine are 7 and 3.5; they don't really do chores. But
they sure do like to help. They may not when they're older and figured out it's
work and not just spashin' in the sink or making baskets with dirty clothes
into the washer.
Bedtimes: Pretty loose. We've never had bedtimes. My youngest says he's
tired or he'll ask if it's time for bed yet. My older one goes in his room when
we go to bed and he reads or draws or plays quietly. He's been doing that a
long time and every now and then if I come out, his lights are always out
within an hour or two. He gets up on his own as does his brother. They both know
that we try to have quiet time if others are sleeping. We do that and they
do that. We try to be respectful of others. It's not a perfect world but it
sure is close :o)
Just examples of how I think. If my 3.5 year old said I am going to Walmart,
I'd say hey do you want a ride? He'd probably giggle and we'd talk about how
far away it is and the dangerous streets and all that jazz. Would I let
him-hell no!! Would I talk to him and probably even take him-hell yes.
Same with anything. Sometimes they want to watch something I wouldn't pick
for them and I'd love to say no but I end up just watching with them or I might
say I don't think I'd like that and give them some other things to watch or
ideas to do and if after all that they still want to, then I say go for it-if
they want to that badly then it's a desire that should be met if it's not
unbelievably drastic.
What is unbelievably drastic in my home may be worse in yours or less so.
That's the biggest thing of all. What others do doesn't have to be what you do.
In my neighborhood, I don't let my 7 year old out alone because we have a
very busy street on one side. He also doesn't know anyone on our street. And
he's actually never asked to go outside. We are always at parks or activities
or museums and such. If he asked, I'd say yeah and I'd go too. When I knew he
felt comfortable with the streets and all that, I'd probably let him go
alone.
To me unschooling means saying yes a lot. Being there for them. Opening
doors and/or showing them answers until they can open them or answer them on
their own.
Sorry this got so long, I haven't posted much lately and I thought I could
help on this one. Responding like this helps remind me of things too. Like
when I loose my patience or feel overwhelmed or I am in need of a mom-only day.
I can look back and remember what it's all for.
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ptidmore1117@... writes:
> like what if your 4 yr old said Mom,I am going to go to Wal-MartYour not a fruitcake :o) I still have a hard time with some issues and I
> I will be back this afternoon.......how do you do it?
> Call me a fruit cake but I just don't get it!!
> And folks I REALLY want too!!
think I have always been an unschooler. Well, I was until I lost my nerve and
sent ds to Kindergarten the first year I would have to account for him. And I
only say "think" because it never had a name before it came time to
"homeschool". I had always wanted to homeschool and we have been a family of natural
learning since day one. When it came time to think about the "red tape"
involved, I lost my nerve. Then got it back after tons of researching. When I
researched, I heard the term "unschooler" and I read up on it and realized that it
described our home in almost all aspects.
One thing I never understood is, why call in un"school"ing? It still
contained "school" and that is totally NOT what we do. Deschool, I get. Unschool, I
don't. That's just me. Life learner, natural learner, freethinker-they're
all too wordy, so I guess unschooler works. I have heard of SOOOO many things
since I began this "labeled" journey. Before we had a label, it all seemed
easier. When you define yourself, that's when people ask questions and the
stories begin. Most helpful and enlightening, others not so.
For us it boils down to being there for our kids first and foremost. We help
them find answers to their questions. We never shhh! or demean something
that is important to them. Even when I've heard about all I can stand of the
latest cartoon craze or whatever has them all in a blur, I bare with it. This is
their time and I want for them to be able to do and feel and see and smell
and touch and think about whatever pops into their heads. In the same process
we still have limits or rules. We are not so loose that the kids would be in
danger or disruptive to others. We help them make choices, we set examples.
An example of our "rules", (never written or set in stone, but used):
Eating: Please try everything, but you never have to eat anything you don't
want to.
Bathroom things: We bathe, brush, wash everyday. We just don't have a set
schedule. If the kids hang out in pj's the whole day-cool. Eventually we will
wash up.
Cleaning up: We put away our stuff to make room for more stuff. If said
stuff is still being used or we're coming back later, so be it. Dishes and
things, when we're done, we wash. If we're in the middle of something then it can
wait but if not we do it real quick so there's lots of time later to do other
things without interruption. I am needed 24/7 and if I have a ton of dishes
or chores, then I'm not as available as they or I like. So we or I do little
bits here and there. Mine are 7 and 3.5; they don't really do chores. But
they sure do like to help. They may not when they're older and figured out it's
work and not just spashin' in the sink or making baskets with dirty clothes
into the washer.
Bedtimes: Pretty loose. We've never had bedtimes. My youngest says he's
tired or he'll ask if it's time for bed yet. My older one goes in his room when
we go to bed and he reads or draws or plays quietly. He's been doing that a
long time and every now and then if I come out, his lights are always out
within an hour or two. He gets up on his own as does his brother. They both know
that we try to have quiet time if others are sleeping. We do that and they
do that. We try to be respectful of others. It's not a perfect world but it
sure is close :o)
Just examples of how I think. If my 3.5 year old said I am going to Walmart,
I'd say hey do you want a ride? He'd probably giggle and we'd talk about how
far away it is and the dangerous streets and all that jazz. Would I let
him-hell no!! Would I talk to him and probably even take him-hell yes.
Same with anything. Sometimes they want to watch something I wouldn't pick
for them and I'd love to say no but I end up just watching with them or I might
say I don't think I'd like that and give them some other things to watch or
ideas to do and if after all that they still want to, then I say go for it-if
they want to that badly then it's a desire that should be met if it's not
unbelievably drastic.
What is unbelievably drastic in my home may be worse in yours or less so.
That's the biggest thing of all. What others do doesn't have to be what you do.
In my neighborhood, I don't let my 7 year old out alone because we have a
very busy street on one side. He also doesn't know anyone on our street. And
he's actually never asked to go outside. We are always at parks or activities
or museums and such. If he asked, I'd say yeah and I'd go too. When I knew he
felt comfortable with the streets and all that, I'd probably let him go
alone.
To me unschooling means saying yes a lot. Being there for them. Opening
doors and/or showing them answers until they can open them or answer them on
their own.
Sorry this got so long, I haven't posted much lately and I thought I could
help on this one. Responding like this helps remind me of things too. Like
when I loose my patience or feel overwhelmed or I am in need of a mom-only day.
I can look back and remember what it's all for.
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
>>>>>>>>>like what if your 4 yr old said Mom,I am going to go to Wal-MartI will be back this afternoon.......how do you do it?>>>>>>>>>
I would walk there with the child and point out various things on the way - safe places to cross streets, where to walk if there is no sidewalk, why it is usually recommended that walkers face traffic, etc. Does your 4 yr old really want to walk to Wal-Mart? Maybe they just want to GET to Wal-Mart. Maybe the child would be just as happy to have you drive there.
Due to increased development resulting in a change in roads in our area, it is now feasible to walk to a Wal-Mart from my house. There is also a convenience store/gas station within walking distance, but out of the "safety" of the neighborhood. My 12 yod has been wanting to walk to the convenience store with friends, without me. A couple weeks ago, my girls and I did the walk together, talking about the things I described above. Part of the walk has no shoulder on a 2 lane road with 40 mph speed limit. However, because of the new road diverting much of the traffic, the road with no shoulder is mostly pretty quiet. Lisa thought it was OK to walk right next to the edge of the pavement when cars come. I explained to her that although cars are supposed to stay on the road, they may end up on the shoulder for a number of reasons. We talked about how near/far to the edge was a good amount to stay safe. There are some houses and a pre-fab housing development along the way. Yesterday, she and her friend walked there together. Her friend carried a cell phone. I am not ready to let my 9 yo do the same walk without me. I have no logical reason - she is very cautious about traffic, etc. It just doesn't feel right. If she asks to walk there with a friend, I will ask if I can go with them. If they want to feel that they are on their own, I'll offer to walk a bit behind them, or something. However, she has not asked to do so. I need to arrange to walk to Wal-Mart with Lisa sometime soon, to see how feasible that is. The route that we would walk is not the same way that we would drive there. It is between 1 and 1 1/2 miles. In this case, it is that she wants the experience of going somewhere independently. She knows I would drive her there if her actual goal was to just be there.
On a related note about keeping our children safe when we are not with them, I will share an incident that happened here this weekend.
My neighborhood homeowner's association organized a giant yard sale Saturday morning. People set up in their own yard, and buyers had the convenience of lots of yard sales all in one neighborhood.
One of my neighbors, who is the mother of one of Lisa's best friends, had a miscommunication with her husband and dd. The 11 yod and a friend left with the dad while the mom was bathing, but mom had thought the girls would be waiting to go with her. When she was ready, and couldn't find the girls, and couldn't contact her husband on his cell phone, she feared the two girls had been abducted while walking around the neighborhood because of all the increased traffic from the yard sales. She called here to ask if I'd seen them. I told her that the girls were too smart to just get in someone's car, but she feared that perhaps the abductor had a gun. Story ends well (after she calls the police) when she discovers they were with dad all along and had really thought mom had heard when they said they were leaving with him. The mom and I talked about it later that day. She is a teacher and gets to look at the poster of local registered sex offenders every time she goes in the teacher's lounge and is frightened by it. Strangers driving around looking for kids is one of my neighbor's constant fears. She is always living on the side of fear rather than the side of caution. Her 11 yod is literally afraid when she sees an unknown car in our neighborhood. My children do not have this "fear", because I've always approached the idea of "strangers" as how to interact with people we don't know - not to just blindly avoid them because they may be dangerous.
We discussed the incident about Lisa's friend at dinner last night - Pat, Lisa, Jackie, and I. I said that it is highly unlikely that they would be abducted by strangers, but I wanted to talk about it since the subject had just come up with one of their friends. I told Lisa that it is easier for me to let her do things without me if I am confident that she will be able to take care of herself - that she has and will use good judgment about how to react in various scenarios. I explained that it is my job to keep her safe, that I would be devastated if something did happen, and that if she has children someday, she will understand. I pointed out that if someone in a car stops and asks the child if they've seen their lost pet, it is most likely that they really are looking for their lost pet. However, it is still good to be cautious, avoid going too close to the car, etc.
I had never mentioned gun point before, but did this time, again, because of the incident with the neighbor. She had feared that her daughter would get in the car if someone had a gun, rather than risk the people shooting her if she ran off. So I asked my kids what they would do if someone in a car had a gun. Jackie (9) said she didn't know. Lisa wasn't sure either. I said that you are always safer to get away from the person with the gun. Then I said again how unlikely it was to happen, that it had never happened to me or anyone I know. When I think about it this morning, I see that it really is just adding more detail to what we've always told them they should do in a scary situation - just get away. I'm kind of sorry that I brought it up, because Lisa was visibly upset by the conversation. OTOH, she spends a lot of time with this other girl and it is likely that the topic will come up in some way when they are together. I'd rather my dds be aware that these situations are extremely unlikely, and have an idea of how to react, so that if the topic comes up when they are with the neighbor they won't become paranoid about it.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
patricia tidmore
See....I shouldn't have sit here just reading what ever question someone else had for you guys.
Instead I should have got off my duff and asked what I needed to know,cuz this does make sense to me.
So if I feel uncomfotable saying yes,then I should look for a way to say yes that makes me and the kiddos happy.Is that correct?
Thank you Sheila,You will never know just how much that helped this old dog that is trying SO very hard to learn some new tricks.
Love~Pat
"If you don't set rules,then how do you go about not allowing your children to go about town if you feel they are not mature enough?"
Try to find a way to allow them to do what they want in a way that's comfortable for you too.
It's about looking at the principle of safety realistically instead of just arbitrarily saying, "No kid can go farther than the block by himself until he's 12 years old".
Every time they want to do something might be different. If there's a really good reason why you don't think something's a good idea, don't just say no. Discuss why you don't think it's a good idea with them. See if you can come up with a safer plan together. My kids are used to me trying to find a way to say yes to them, so when I have to say no for safety reasons, they usually think the explanation why I'm saying no makes sense. We're usually able to find a happy alternative.
"like what if your 4 yr old said Mom,I am going to go to Wal-Mart
I will be back this afternoon.......how do you do it?"
Can you go with him?
My kids and I have a plan to walk to wal-mart through the woods. Dh and I are each going to park a car at wal-mart, then drive home together. The kids and I are going to hike through the woods (woods are a few blocks from our house) to wal-mart (we'll come out in the woods behind wal-mart), and go to our car in the parking lot and drive home. They're pretty excited about it.
I don't think it would be wise for my kids to walk to wal-mart by the highway, because the traffic can be pretty heavy. But if they really wanted to, I'd go with them.
Sheila
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Instead I should have got off my duff and asked what I needed to know,cuz this does make sense to me.
So if I feel uncomfotable saying yes,then I should look for a way to say yes that makes me and the kiddos happy.Is that correct?
Thank you Sheila,You will never know just how much that helped this old dog that is trying SO very hard to learn some new tricks.
Love~Pat
"If you don't set rules,then how do you go about not allowing your children to go about town if you feel they are not mature enough?"
Try to find a way to allow them to do what they want in a way that's comfortable for you too.
It's about looking at the principle of safety realistically instead of just arbitrarily saying, "No kid can go farther than the block by himself until he's 12 years old".
Every time they want to do something might be different. If there's a really good reason why you don't think something's a good idea, don't just say no. Discuss why you don't think it's a good idea with them. See if you can come up with a safer plan together. My kids are used to me trying to find a way to say yes to them, so when I have to say no for safety reasons, they usually think the explanation why I'm saying no makes sense. We're usually able to find a happy alternative.
"like what if your 4 yr old said Mom,I am going to go to Wal-Mart
I will be back this afternoon.......how do you do it?"
Can you go with him?
My kids and I have a plan to walk to wal-mart through the woods. Dh and I are each going to park a car at wal-mart, then drive home together. The kids and I are going to hike through the woods (woods are a few blocks from our house) to wal-mart (we'll come out in the woods behind wal-mart), and go to our car in the parking lot and drive home. They're pretty excited about it.
I don't think it would be wise for my kids to walk to wal-mart by the highway, because the traffic can be pretty heavy. But if they really wanted to, I'd go with them.
Sheila
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patricia tidmore
Thank You very much Maryellen,
I shared your story with my 14 and 9 yr old,we had just had this conversation this morning.
It really helped us alot.I only have joint custody of my 14 yr old.He spends half his time with his Mom(my ex dil)and he goes to ps.
She lets him run the streets all hrs of the night and so I try to talk to him about it when I can.
I will continue to talk to him,but since reading your post I will now have a whole new approach.
Love~Pat
I would walk there with the child and point out various things on the way - safe places to cross streets, where to walk if there is no sidewalk, why it is usually recommended that walkers face traffic, etc. Does your 4 yr old really want to walk to Wal-Mart? Maybe they just want to GET to Wal-Mart. Maybe the child would be just as happy to have you drive there.
Due to increased development resulting in a change in roads in our area, it is now feasible to walk to a Wal-Mart from my house. There is also a convenience store/gas station within walking distance, but out of the "safety" of the neighborhood. My 12 yod has been wanting to walk to the convenience store with friends, without me. A couple weeks ago, my girls and I did the walk together, talking about the things I described above. Part of the walk has no shoulder on a 2 lane road with 40 mph speed limit. However, because of the new road diverting much of the traffic, the road with no shoulder is mostly pretty quiet. Lisa thought it was OK to walk right next to the edge of the pavement when cars come. I explained to her that although cars are supposed to stay on the road, they may end up on the shoulder for a number of reasons. We talked about how near/far to the edge was a good amount to stay safe. There are some houses and a pre-fab housing development along the way.
Yesterday, she and her friend walked there together. Her friend carried a cell phone. I am not ready to let my 9 yo do the same walk without me. I have no logical reason - she is very cautious about traffic, etc. It just doesn't feel right. If she asks to walk there with a friend, I will ask if I can go with them. If they want to feel that they are on their own, I'll offer to walk a bit behind them, or something. However, she has not asked to do so. I need to arrange to walk to Wal-Mart with Lisa sometime soon, to see how feasible that is. The route that we would walk is not the same way that we would drive there. It is between 1 and 1 1/2 miles. In this case, it is that she wants the experience of going somewhere independently. She knows I would drive her there if her actual goal was to just be there.
On a related note about keeping our children safe when we are not with them, I will share an incident that happened here this weekend.
My neighborhood homeowner's association organized a giant yard sale Saturday morning. People set up in their own yard, and buyers had the convenience of lots of yard sales all in one neighborhood.
One of my neighbors, who is the mother of one of Lisa's best friends, had a miscommunication with her husband and dd. The 11 yod and a friend left with the dad while the mom was bathing, but mom had thought the girls would be waiting to go with her. When she was ready, and couldn't find the girls, and couldn't contact her husband on his cell phone, she feared the two girls had been abducted while walking around the neighborhood because of all the increased traffic from the yard sales. She called here to ask if I'd seen them. I told her that the girls were too smart to just get in someone's car, but she feared that perhaps the abductor had a gun. Story ends well (after she calls the police) when she discovers they were with dad all along and had really thought mom had heard when they said they were leaving with him. The mom and I talked about it later that day. She is a teacher and gets to look at the poster of local registered sex offenders every time she goes in the teacher's
lounge and is frightened by it. Strangers driving around looking for kids is one of my neighbor's constant fears. She is always living on the side of fear rather than the side of caution. Her 11 yod is literally afraid when she sees an unknown car in our neighborhood. My children do not have this "fear", because I've always approached the idea of "strangers" as how to interact with people we don't know - not to just blindly avoid them because they may be dangerous.
We discussed the incident about Lisa's friend at dinner last night - Pat, Lisa, Jackie, and I. I said that it is highly unlikely that they would be abducted by strangers, but I wanted to talk about it since the subject had just come up with one of their friends. I told Lisa that it is easier for me to let her do things without me if I am confident that she will be able to take care of herself - that she has and will use good judgment about how to react in various scenarios. I explained that it is my job to keep her safe, that I would be devastated if something did happen, and that if she has children someday, she will understand. I pointed out that if someone in a car stops and asks the child if they've seen their lost pet, it is most likely that they really are looking for their lost pet. However, it is still good to be cautious, avoid going too close to the car, etc.
I had never mentioned gun point before, but did this time, again, because of the incident with the neighbor. She had feared that her daughter would get in the car if someone had a gun, rather than risk the people shooting her if she ran off. So I asked my kids what they would do if someone in a car had a gun. Jackie (9) said she didn't know. Lisa wasn't sure either. I said that you are always safer to get away from the person with the gun. Then I said again how unlikely it was to happen, that it had never happened to me or anyone I know. When I think about it this morning, I see that it really is just adding more detail to what we've always told them they should do in a scary situation - just get away. I'm kind of sorry that I brought it up, because Lisa was visibly upset by the conversation. OTOH, she spends a lot of time with this other girl and it is likely that the topic will come up in some way when they are together. I'd rather my dds be aware that these situations
are extremely unlikely, and have an idea of how to react, so that if the topic comes up when they are with the neighbor they won't become paranoid about it.
Mary Ellen
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I shared your story with my 14 and 9 yr old,we had just had this conversation this morning.
It really helped us alot.I only have joint custody of my 14 yr old.He spends half his time with his Mom(my ex dil)and he goes to ps.
She lets him run the streets all hrs of the night and so I try to talk to him about it when I can.
I will continue to talk to him,but since reading your post I will now have a whole new approach.
Love~Pat
>>>>>>>>>like what if your 4 yr old said Mom,I am going to go to Wal-MartI will be back this afternoon.......how do you do it?>>>>>>>>>
I would walk there with the child and point out various things on the way - safe places to cross streets, where to walk if there is no sidewalk, why it is usually recommended that walkers face traffic, etc. Does your 4 yr old really want to walk to Wal-Mart? Maybe they just want to GET to Wal-Mart. Maybe the child would be just as happy to have you drive there.
Due to increased development resulting in a change in roads in our area, it is now feasible to walk to a Wal-Mart from my house. There is also a convenience store/gas station within walking distance, but out of the "safety" of the neighborhood. My 12 yod has been wanting to walk to the convenience store with friends, without me. A couple weeks ago, my girls and I did the walk together, talking about the things I described above. Part of the walk has no shoulder on a 2 lane road with 40 mph speed limit. However, because of the new road diverting much of the traffic, the road with no shoulder is mostly pretty quiet. Lisa thought it was OK to walk right next to the edge of the pavement when cars come. I explained to her that although cars are supposed to stay on the road, they may end up on the shoulder for a number of reasons. We talked about how near/far to the edge was a good amount to stay safe. There are some houses and a pre-fab housing development along the way.
Yesterday, she and her friend walked there together. Her friend carried a cell phone. I am not ready to let my 9 yo do the same walk without me. I have no logical reason - she is very cautious about traffic, etc. It just doesn't feel right. If she asks to walk there with a friend, I will ask if I can go with them. If they want to feel that they are on their own, I'll offer to walk a bit behind them, or something. However, she has not asked to do so. I need to arrange to walk to Wal-Mart with Lisa sometime soon, to see how feasible that is. The route that we would walk is not the same way that we would drive there. It is between 1 and 1 1/2 miles. In this case, it is that she wants the experience of going somewhere independently. She knows I would drive her there if her actual goal was to just be there.
On a related note about keeping our children safe when we are not with them, I will share an incident that happened here this weekend.
My neighborhood homeowner's association organized a giant yard sale Saturday morning. People set up in their own yard, and buyers had the convenience of lots of yard sales all in one neighborhood.
One of my neighbors, who is the mother of one of Lisa's best friends, had a miscommunication with her husband and dd. The 11 yod and a friend left with the dad while the mom was bathing, but mom had thought the girls would be waiting to go with her. When she was ready, and couldn't find the girls, and couldn't contact her husband on his cell phone, she feared the two girls had been abducted while walking around the neighborhood because of all the increased traffic from the yard sales. She called here to ask if I'd seen them. I told her that the girls were too smart to just get in someone's car, but she feared that perhaps the abductor had a gun. Story ends well (after she calls the police) when she discovers they were with dad all along and had really thought mom had heard when they said they were leaving with him. The mom and I talked about it later that day. She is a teacher and gets to look at the poster of local registered sex offenders every time she goes in the teacher's
lounge and is frightened by it. Strangers driving around looking for kids is one of my neighbor's constant fears. She is always living on the side of fear rather than the side of caution. Her 11 yod is literally afraid when she sees an unknown car in our neighborhood. My children do not have this "fear", because I've always approached the idea of "strangers" as how to interact with people we don't know - not to just blindly avoid them because they may be dangerous.
We discussed the incident about Lisa's friend at dinner last night - Pat, Lisa, Jackie, and I. I said that it is highly unlikely that they would be abducted by strangers, but I wanted to talk about it since the subject had just come up with one of their friends. I told Lisa that it is easier for me to let her do things without me if I am confident that she will be able to take care of herself - that she has and will use good judgment about how to react in various scenarios. I explained that it is my job to keep her safe, that I would be devastated if something did happen, and that if she has children someday, she will understand. I pointed out that if someone in a car stops and asks the child if they've seen their lost pet, it is most likely that they really are looking for their lost pet. However, it is still good to be cautious, avoid going too close to the car, etc.
I had never mentioned gun point before, but did this time, again, because of the incident with the neighbor. She had feared that her daughter would get in the car if someone had a gun, rather than risk the people shooting her if she ran off. So I asked my kids what they would do if someone in a car had a gun. Jackie (9) said she didn't know. Lisa wasn't sure either. I said that you are always safer to get away from the person with the gun. Then I said again how unlikely it was to happen, that it had never happened to me or anyone I know. When I think about it this morning, I see that it really is just adding more detail to what we've always told them they should do in a scary situation - just get away. I'm kind of sorry that I brought it up, because Lisa was visibly upset by the conversation. OTOH, she spends a lot of time with this other girl and it is likely that the topic will come up in some way when they are together. I'd rather my dds be aware that these situations
are extremely unlikely, and have an idea of how to react, so that if the topic comes up when they are with the neighbor they won't become paranoid about it.
Mary Ellen
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mother_bhaer
>not old
>
> Rather than using broad definitions or proclamations like "you're
> enough" or "you're not mature enough" (condemnations), break itdown into the
> REAL factors. And don't wait until a child is ready to go outfor hours.
> Start with the five minute trips, the twenty minute biked rides.It's not an
> all or nothing thing.I would like to ask a little more specifically. We were doing fine
>
> Are they careful about traffic?
> Do they always let you know where they'll be and then BE there?
> Would they know what to do in an emergency?
> Will someone be with them?
>
with this. We have lived in various places and my children have had
freedom based on the situation. Ds is almost 11 and dd is 7. When
we lived in the downtown area of a large city with very interesting
neighbors they had less freedom than when we lived in an apartment
in the suburbs.
The problem we're having now is that we moved into the country on
the end of a dirt road. We loved it here and the children were free
to ride their bikes all over our neighborhood. But we just recently
found out that a convicted sex offender has moved in a block away!
We are researching our options with the authorities, but we have
felt the necessity to limit their bike riding. I even feel
uncomfortable now letting them go to the end of our road to check
the mail, which is on the main road where this man lives. I don't
think I'm being paranoid, but would like to hear others opinions.
Terri
[email protected]
I had never mentioned gun point before, but did this time, again,
because of the
incident with the neighbor. She had feared that her daughter would get
in the
car if someone had a gun, rather than risk the people shooting her if
she ran
off. So I asked my kids what they would do if someone in a car had a
gun.
Jackie (9) said she didn't know. Lisa wasn't sure either. I said that
you are
always safer to get away from the person with the gun. Then I said
again how
unlikely it was to happen, that it had never happened to me or anyone I
know.
-=-=-=-=-
It's better ten ways around to run FIRST. If someone is willing to
shoot or stab you in a crowd/in public/in a parking lot/on a street,
you are FAR better off running and risking the shooting/stabbing THEN.
If he's willing to do it in front of people, he may do MUCH worse in
private.
ALWAYS run, scream, get away NOW!
~Kelly, daughter of a forensic psychiatrist, who heard MANY horror
stories
because of the
incident with the neighbor. She had feared that her daughter would get
in the
car if someone had a gun, rather than risk the people shooting her if
she ran
off. So I asked my kids what they would do if someone in a car had a
gun.
Jackie (9) said she didn't know. Lisa wasn't sure either. I said that
you are
always safer to get away from the person with the gun. Then I said
again how
unlikely it was to happen, that it had never happened to me or anyone I
know.
-=-=-=-=-
It's better ten ways around to run FIRST. If someone is willing to
shoot or stab you in a crowd/in public/in a parking lot/on a street,
you are FAR better off running and risking the shooting/stabbing THEN.
If he's willing to do it in front of people, he may do MUCH worse in
private.
ALWAYS run, scream, get away NOW!
~Kelly, daughter of a forensic psychiatrist, who heard MANY horror
stories
patricia tidmore
But this is really how things are with my 9 yr old!!! He is the one that climbed ontop of McDonalds restaraunt at 18 mths.
DHR took him,placed him in foster care and had to go get him every day and find him a new foster home.For 5 days that went on.They called us to come get him.It was not my daughters fault.(This happened before I adopted)
He has left our home in the middle of the night at 2 yrs old.We have had neighbors come banging on the door in the middle of the night because he was on the top of their house.
DHR thought they were so brilliant to have him hospitalized because we were neglecting him.
NO he was born this way to my 16 yr old daughter.
No,She didn't use drugs or alcohol.She was homeschooled.(not unschooled)
My grandsons father was 17,his Mom had just commited suicide when he was concieved.
After the babies birth and finding we had a combination Bam-Bam/Dennis the Menice on our hands we started researching.I have a whole new education now in mental illness.
I have bipolar all thru my family and always just thought thats the way things were.
My GS's father has bipolar as did his grandmom,so does hisgrandad and his aunt.
When my grandson was 6 and his baby brother was 2 we were all painting bird feeders outside.
My sil(his dad) had been riding the 4 wheeler.He got off to go to the bathroom,when Elijah put his baby brother on the 4 wheeler and drove off up the mtn.
And no we didn't see it coming,one minute he was all into painting his very own bird feeder the next he is gone.This kind of stuff has happened every since this child has been in the world.
I had never known of any child like this before him and I have never met another.
But I will tell you this,I would not trade any of my experiences with him,I have learned much more from him in his 9 yrs on this earth than I learned in all my other 39 yrs before he was born.
But as he gets older he is not quite as impulsive.He is maturing and is realizing that dangers do exist.
In a message dated 4/18/2005 9:10:01 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
ptidmore1117@... writes:
-=-If you don't set rules,then how do you go about not allowing your
children to go about town if you feel they are not mature enough?-=-
Rather than using broad definitions or proclamations like "you're not old
enough" or "you're not mature enough" (condemnations), break it down into the
REAL factors. And don't wait until a child is ready to go out for hours.
Start with the five minute trips, the twenty minute biked rides. It's not an
all or nothing thing.
Are they careful about traffic?
Do they always let you know where they'll be and then BE there?
Would they know what to do in an emergency?
Will someone be with them?
-=-like what if your 4 yr old said Mom,I am going to go to Wal-Mart
I will be back this afternoon.......-=-
Has that happened to you?
I've had three four year olds and none of them ever wanted to go off all
alone.
Once someone used the example that without rules and controls, a child might
want to get in the car and drive to grandma's house. I said simply that my
keys are hanging by the door. Using wild examples doesn't help.
Speculating wildly only scares the mom and muddies the waters of logic and of living
right in the moment.
And when I say "stop wild thinking," the accusation comes back that I'm in
denial and just don't want to face "real questions." I LOVE to face real
questions. Tell us what your child REALLY wants to do.
_http://sandradodd.com/rules_ (http://sandradodd.com/rules)
_http://sandradodd.com/benrules_ (http://sandradodd.com/benrules)
There's a link there to an article Danielle Conger had published, and if you
read those things don't skim them and say "read them." Read a line a day,
if you have to, to let it sink in and to see how it fits in YOUR life.
Because of school, I think, because of what school calls reading, people
will go to a webpage, move their eyes back and forth as they scroll down, sound
the words out in their mind, close the page and say "I read it."
That's not useful real-world reading for personal benefit. That's tagging
it school-style. I'm not saying you've done that, but it's happened a couple
of times lately and so I wanted to bring it up in a conversation where people
are saying "I really want to get it," and that MIGHT be the problem. Too
much mental noise, not enough stillness and acceptance. People have to stop
what they're doing before they can do something else. People have to stop
walking the wrong way before they can look and decide which new way to go.
Trotting along the wrong direction while calling out over one's shoulder that they
don't understand that other trail isn't the way to change.
Two other possible helps:
_http://sandradodd.com/morning_ (http://sandradodd.com/morning)
_http://sandradodd.com/deschooling_ (http://sandradodd.com/deschooling)
(the zen tea story up top)
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DHR took him,placed him in foster care and had to go get him every day and find him a new foster home.For 5 days that went on.They called us to come get him.It was not my daughters fault.(This happened before I adopted)
He has left our home in the middle of the night at 2 yrs old.We have had neighbors come banging on the door in the middle of the night because he was on the top of their house.
DHR thought they were so brilliant to have him hospitalized because we were neglecting him.
NO he was born this way to my 16 yr old daughter.
No,She didn't use drugs or alcohol.She was homeschooled.(not unschooled)
My grandsons father was 17,his Mom had just commited suicide when he was concieved.
After the babies birth and finding we had a combination Bam-Bam/Dennis the Menice on our hands we started researching.I have a whole new education now in mental illness.
I have bipolar all thru my family and always just thought thats the way things were.
My GS's father has bipolar as did his grandmom,so does hisgrandad and his aunt.
When my grandson was 6 and his baby brother was 2 we were all painting bird feeders outside.
My sil(his dad) had been riding the 4 wheeler.He got off to go to the bathroom,when Elijah put his baby brother on the 4 wheeler and drove off up the mtn.
And no we didn't see it coming,one minute he was all into painting his very own bird feeder the next he is gone.This kind of stuff has happened every since this child has been in the world.
I had never known of any child like this before him and I have never met another.
But I will tell you this,I would not trade any of my experiences with him,I have learned much more from him in his 9 yrs on this earth than I learned in all my other 39 yrs before he was born.
But as he gets older he is not quite as impulsive.He is maturing and is realizing that dangers do exist.
In a message dated 4/18/2005 9:10:01 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
ptidmore1117@... writes:
-=-If you don't set rules,then how do you go about not allowing your
children to go about town if you feel they are not mature enough?-=-
Rather than using broad definitions or proclamations like "you're not old
enough" or "you're not mature enough" (condemnations), break it down into the
REAL factors. And don't wait until a child is ready to go out for hours.
Start with the five minute trips, the twenty minute biked rides. It's not an
all or nothing thing.
Are they careful about traffic?
Do they always let you know where they'll be and then BE there?
Would they know what to do in an emergency?
Will someone be with them?
-=-like what if your 4 yr old said Mom,I am going to go to Wal-Mart
I will be back this afternoon.......-=-
Has that happened to you?
I've had three four year olds and none of them ever wanted to go off all
alone.
Once someone used the example that without rules and controls, a child might
want to get in the car and drive to grandma's house. I said simply that my
keys are hanging by the door. Using wild examples doesn't help.
Speculating wildly only scares the mom and muddies the waters of logic and of living
right in the moment.
And when I say "stop wild thinking," the accusation comes back that I'm in
denial and just don't want to face "real questions." I LOVE to face real
questions. Tell us what your child REALLY wants to do.
_http://sandradodd.com/rules_ (http://sandradodd.com/rules)
_http://sandradodd.com/benrules_ (http://sandradodd.com/benrules)
There's a link there to an article Danielle Conger had published, and if you
read those things don't skim them and say "read them." Read a line a day,
if you have to, to let it sink in and to see how it fits in YOUR life.
Because of school, I think, because of what school calls reading, people
will go to a webpage, move their eyes back and forth as they scroll down, sound
the words out in their mind, close the page and say "I read it."
That's not useful real-world reading for personal benefit. That's tagging
it school-style. I'm not saying you've done that, but it's happened a couple
of times lately and so I wanted to bring it up in a conversation where people
are saying "I really want to get it," and that MIGHT be the problem. Too
much mental noise, not enough stillness and acceptance. People have to stop
what they're doing before they can do something else. People have to stop
walking the wrong way before they can look and decide which new way to go.
Trotting along the wrong direction while calling out over one's shoulder that they
don't understand that other trail isn't the way to change.
Two other possible helps:
_http://sandradodd.com/morning_ (http://sandradodd.com/morning)
_http://sandradodd.com/deschooling_ (http://sandradodd.com/deschooling)
(the zen tea story up top)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<My grandsons father was 17,his Mom had just commited suicide when he was
concieved.>>>>>
I'm confused about whose Mom and all the "he's". Was the Mom on life support
for her pregnancy?
<<<<<<This kind of stuff has happened every since this child has been in the
world.
I had never known of any child like this before him and I have never met
another.>>>>>
Rather than continue to feel alone in this, have you heard of Anne Ohman's
RU list for non-typical or differently wired kids ShineWithUnschooling at
Yahoo groups? There are others there with bipolar kids.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ShineWithUnschooling/
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 4/16/2005
concieved.>>>>>
I'm confused about whose Mom and all the "he's". Was the Mom on life support
for her pregnancy?
<<<<<<This kind of stuff has happened every since this child has been in the
world.
I had never known of any child like this before him and I have never met
another.>>>>>
Rather than continue to feel alone in this, have you heard of Anne Ohman's
RU list for non-typical or differently wired kids ShineWithUnschooling at
Yahoo groups? There are others there with bipolar kids.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ShineWithUnschooling/
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 4/16/2005
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/18/2005 9:09:53 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
ptidmore1117@... writes:
Sorry I forgot to say that my 9 yr old is bipolar and ODD.I am sure this
will make a difference.
Thanks~Pat
=====================
It will make a difference in the answers you receive?
Not from me. If each child's readiness has to do with the circumstances in
and outside the house, and in *that child* and his abilities, then bipolar
and ODD and ADD and dyslexia don't matter a bit. If a child is reliable,
brave, good to go, he might be six and he might be sixteen.
If people "make rules" they'll go by age. If people live by principles, it
will depend on all applicable factors.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ptidmore1117@... writes:
Sorry I forgot to say that my 9 yr old is bipolar and ODD.I am sure this
will make a difference.
Thanks~Pat
=====================
It will make a difference in the answers you receive?
Not from me. If each child's readiness has to do with the circumstances in
and outside the house, and in *that child* and his abilities, then bipolar
and ODD and ADD and dyslexia don't matter a bit. If a child is reliable,
brave, good to go, he might be six and he might be sixteen.
If people "make rules" they'll go by age. If people live by principles, it
will depend on all applicable factors.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
patricia tidmore
Sorry Robin,
This is why I have trouble in these groups and usually only read what everyone else contributes.I seem to have a really hard time putting my thoughts down.
I will try to clear this up.
The person that commited suicide was Elijahs(9 yr old grandson that I have adopted)paternal grandmother.She died before Elijah was born.
Most of the he's in my post are about Elijah.
Yes,I do know about shinewithunschooling.I am a member there.
Love~Pat
Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
<<concieved.>>>>>
I'm confused about whose Mom and all the "he's". Was the Mom on life support
for her pregnancy?
<<<<<world.
I had never known of any child like this before him and I have never met
another.>>>>>
Rather than continue to feel alone in this, have you heard of Anne Ohman's
RU list for non-typical or differently wired kids ShineWithUnschooling at
Yahoo groups? There are others there with bipolar kids.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ShineWithUnschooling/
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 4/16/2005
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
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---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is why I have trouble in these groups and usually only read what everyone else contributes.I seem to have a really hard time putting my thoughts down.
I will try to clear this up.
The person that commited suicide was Elijahs(9 yr old grandson that I have adopted)paternal grandmother.She died before Elijah was born.
Most of the he's in my post are about Elijah.
Yes,I do know about shinewithunschooling.I am a member there.
Love~Pat
Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
<<concieved.>>>>>
I'm confused about whose Mom and all the "he's". Was the Mom on life support
for her pregnancy?
<<<<<world.
I had never known of any child like this before him and I have never met
another.>>>>>
Rather than continue to feel alone in this, have you heard of Anne Ohman's
RU list for non-typical or differently wired kids ShineWithUnschooling at
Yahoo groups? There are others there with bipolar kids.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ShineWithUnschooling/
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 4/16/2005
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joy guffey
What is ODD? just curious is that a disorder or just
plain odd.
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
plain odd.
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>__________________________________
> In a message dated 4/18/2005 9:09:53 AM Mountain
> Daylight Time,
> ptidmore1117@... writes:
>
> Sorry I forgot to say that my 9 yr old is bipolar
> and ODD.I am sure this
> will make a difference.
> Thanks~Pat
>
>
>
> =====================
>
> It will make a difference in the answers you
> receive?
> Not from me. If each child's readiness has to do
> with the circumstances in
> and outside the house, and in *that child* and his
> abilities, then bipolar
> and ODD and ADD and dyslexia don't matter a bit. If
> a child is reliable,
> brave, good to go, he might be six and he might be
> sixteen.
>
> If people "make rules" they'll go by age. If people
> live by principles, it
> will depend on all applicable factors.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/18/2005 4:29:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
Kent_Terri@... writes:
We are researching our options with the authorities, but we have
felt the necessity to limit their bike riding. I even feel
uncomfortable now letting them go to the end of our road to check
the mail, which is on the main road where this man lives. I don't
think I'm being paranoid, but would like to hear others opinions.
We have had 2 recent cases too close by in Florida recently. Both girls were
murdered by sex offenders. Neither were out riding bikes but they were 9
and 13 and it's scary. If I knew a sex offender lived in my neighborhood, my
kids would be in the company of an adult if they were out riding their bikes.
It's a known that he is there. That's way beyond my comfort level and I
think you have to decide your own comfort level. I'd push it with the
authorities to see what rights you do have.
My kids ride bikes close by and my daughter (15) runs a 3 mile loop in our
neighborhood. It was a process to get there. We all needed to get
comfortable and it started out with us running together. She still calls me if she
goes for a run and I'm out doing errands. She carries a cell phone. I check
the sex offender listings...none here right now that are registered. It's
what works for us. I think if you are uncomfortable with them riding their
bikes alone knowing he is there, that you should honor your feelings. Ride with
them...take them somewhere else and ride together. Find other options in
your neighborhood for now.
I think you have a unique situation. There are good reason sex offenders
are supposed to register. If one has, I'd be extra cautious.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kent_Terri@... writes:
We are researching our options with the authorities, but we have
felt the necessity to limit their bike riding. I even feel
uncomfortable now letting them go to the end of our road to check
the mail, which is on the main road where this man lives. I don't
think I'm being paranoid, but would like to hear others opinions.
We have had 2 recent cases too close by in Florida recently. Both girls were
murdered by sex offenders. Neither were out riding bikes but they were 9
and 13 and it's scary. If I knew a sex offender lived in my neighborhood, my
kids would be in the company of an adult if they were out riding their bikes.
It's a known that he is there. That's way beyond my comfort level and I
think you have to decide your own comfort level. I'd push it with the
authorities to see what rights you do have.
My kids ride bikes close by and my daughter (15) runs a 3 mile loop in our
neighborhood. It was a process to get there. We all needed to get
comfortable and it started out with us running together. She still calls me if she
goes for a run and I'm out doing errands. She carries a cell phone. I check
the sex offender listings...none here right now that are registered. It's
what works for us. I think if you are uncomfortable with them riding their
bikes alone knowing he is there, that you should honor your feelings. Ride with
them...take them somewhere else and ride together. Find other options in
your neighborhood for now.
I think you have a unique situation. There are good reason sex offenders
are supposed to register. If one has, I'd be extra cautious.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
Registered just means they have been caught. I'm not sure that it should really change your behavior, because ones who haven't been caught could possibly be there anyway.
Mary Ellen
Mary Ellen
----- Original Message -----I don't think I'm being paranoid, but would like to hear others opinions.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cyndi
I struggle with letting them walk alone or explore on a daily
basis! It really isn't entirely the same world as it used to be 30
years ago when I was enjoying my "freedom". When things happen now,
they are a lot more...intense.
In our town, we have a prison for sexual offenders about 2 miles
down the road. When they get out, some of them stick around town.
Yippee! I have 3 level 3's (all child related) living within a one
mile radius of my home. So it's a very real threat and we are
careful, but try to also keep in mind that our children deserve to
live without irrational fear of the unknown. It's hard to balance
and I'm sure we've made mistakes.
My 12 year old is not as interested in exploring for the sake of it
as she used to be, she'd rather I drove her somewhere! Bikes aren't
even an issue with us, my dds don't really like them and my ds is 7
and happy with the driveway. But my 10yo dd is very interested in
walking to the store by herself, etc. I used to let her sister at
her age (although I admit I watched secretly with binoculars a few
times in the beginning), but my younger dd is much more child-like
than my older daughter was, and she tends to panic over things more
easily. So my instinct is that it's not time yet for her to walk
somewhere by herself.
One thing I always feel a lot better about is letting either of them
walk around with a. another friend(s) or b. in a public place (no
backstreets, etc.). Rules like don't go into the bathroom alone,
don't go behind buildings, that type of thing. Cell phone at all
times. I find that the girls are pretty comfortable and happy with
being able to be on their own in stores, malls, movies, amusement
parks, etc. and don't have as much interest in just walking around
town.
Also, I'll have them run into the supermarket, bank, etc. for me
instead of taking in the whole gang. They really like doing that!
I get a lot of comments from folks, good and bad, mostly very good,
about my 10yo doing the shopping herself. But she LOVES it and
she's really good at it and it gives her that sense of freedom(?) or
maturity(?) she is striving for by being alone. They all ask to do
the store errands now! And for the record, she shops like a pro..no
carriage mishaps, very polite, calls me about substitutions, asks
the butcher when she can't find eye of the round (unlike hubby who
will just bring home chuck roast).
So maybe bringing your children someplace that they can test the
waters (like driving them to Walmart and letting them go solo from
the parking lot) is a good place to start, both for you and the
children?
Peace,
Cyndi
basis! It really isn't entirely the same world as it used to be 30
years ago when I was enjoying my "freedom". When things happen now,
they are a lot more...intense.
In our town, we have a prison for sexual offenders about 2 miles
down the road. When they get out, some of them stick around town.
Yippee! I have 3 level 3's (all child related) living within a one
mile radius of my home. So it's a very real threat and we are
careful, but try to also keep in mind that our children deserve to
live without irrational fear of the unknown. It's hard to balance
and I'm sure we've made mistakes.
My 12 year old is not as interested in exploring for the sake of it
as she used to be, she'd rather I drove her somewhere! Bikes aren't
even an issue with us, my dds don't really like them and my ds is 7
and happy with the driveway. But my 10yo dd is very interested in
walking to the store by herself, etc. I used to let her sister at
her age (although I admit I watched secretly with binoculars a few
times in the beginning), but my younger dd is much more child-like
than my older daughter was, and she tends to panic over things more
easily. So my instinct is that it's not time yet for her to walk
somewhere by herself.
One thing I always feel a lot better about is letting either of them
walk around with a. another friend(s) or b. in a public place (no
backstreets, etc.). Rules like don't go into the bathroom alone,
don't go behind buildings, that type of thing. Cell phone at all
times. I find that the girls are pretty comfortable and happy with
being able to be on their own in stores, malls, movies, amusement
parks, etc. and don't have as much interest in just walking around
town.
Also, I'll have them run into the supermarket, bank, etc. for me
instead of taking in the whole gang. They really like doing that!
I get a lot of comments from folks, good and bad, mostly very good,
about my 10yo doing the shopping herself. But she LOVES it and
she's really good at it and it gives her that sense of freedom(?) or
maturity(?) she is striving for by being alone. They all ask to do
the store errands now! And for the record, she shops like a pro..no
carriage mishaps, very polite, calls me about substitutions, asks
the butcher when she can't find eye of the round (unlike hubby who
will just bring home chuck roast).
So maybe bringing your children someplace that they can test the
waters (like driving them to Walmart and letting them go solo from
the parking lot) is a good place to start, both for you and the
children?
Peace,
Cyndi
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/18/05 7:36:34 PM, gailbrocop@... writes:
<< We have had 2 recent cases too close by in Florida recently. Both girls
were
murdered by sex offenders. >>
Tonight I heard for the first time (being so far away? or maybe it wasn't
stated before) that the first story involved her mother's ex boyfriend, not a
total stranger. The mother hadn't seen her for a year or something (I think)
and the dad was off at his girlfriend's house for the night. That's not a story
of a close, happy family and an unknown neighbor.
I think that's important to know, just as that the sheer numbers of missing
children don't remind people that most of them were taken by non-custodial
parents or other relatives.
Sandra
<< We have had 2 recent cases too close by in Florida recently. Both girls
were
murdered by sex offenders. >>
Tonight I heard for the first time (being so far away? or maybe it wasn't
stated before) that the first story involved her mother's ex boyfriend, not a
total stranger. The mother hadn't seen her for a year or something (I think)
and the dad was off at his girlfriend's house for the night. That's not a story
of a close, happy family and an unknown neighbor.
I think that's important to know, just as that the sheer numbers of missing
children don't remind people that most of them were taken by non-custodial
parents or other relatives.
Sandra
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<Tonight I heard for the first time (being so far away? or maybe it wasn't
stated before) that the first story involved her mother's ex boyfriend, not
a
total stranger. The mother hadn't seen her for a year or something (I
think)
and the dad was off at his girlfriend's house for the night. That's not a
story
of a close, happy family and an unknown neighbor.
I think that's important to know, just as that the sheer numbers of missing
children don't remind people that most of them were taken by non-custodial
parents or other relatives.>>
Actually no. The first little girl was living with her grandparents and her
father. Her mother lived away in another state. She was taken from her
bedroom by a sex offender the family didn't know. He took the little girl
just across the street where he was staying with relatives.
The second little girl had a habit of taking off for a day. She was killed
in her own home by her mother's ex boyfriend who was a sex offender. Her
mother was away and she was home with her brother, who was not there at the
time of the murder.
Mary B
<<Tonight I heard for the first time (being so far away? or maybe it wasn't
stated before) that the first story involved her mother's ex boyfriend, not
a
total stranger. The mother hadn't seen her for a year or something (I
think)
and the dad was off at his girlfriend's house for the night. That's not a
story
of a close, happy family and an unknown neighbor.
I think that's important to know, just as that the sheer numbers of missing
children don't remind people that most of them were taken by non-custodial
parents or other relatives.>>
Actually no. The first little girl was living with her grandparents and her
father. Her mother lived away in another state. She was taken from her
bedroom by a sex offender the family didn't know. He took the little girl
just across the street where he was staying with relatives.
The second little girl had a habit of taking off for a day. She was killed
in her own home by her mother's ex boyfriend who was a sex offender. Her
mother was away and she was home with her brother, who was not there at the
time of the murder.
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/19/05 9:47:15 AM, mummy124@... writes:
<< The second little girl had a habit of taking off for a day. She was killed
in her own home by her mother's ex boyfriend who was a sex offender. >>
Okay. Sorry if I mixed up the two stories. I thought only one was taken
from her home and the other disappeared while out and about.
If we simply keep our children in the house because there are sex offenders
in the world, they will miss riding bikes and playing with neighbors and
learning to be careful and cautious. Then when they're older and are really tired
of being on too short a leash, THEN they start practicing their own good
judgment, evasion, being with buddies, knowing where the nearest safe places and
phones and all are.
Helping children always make safer choices helps in EVERY way, in every
situation, not just with registered sex offender neighbors. Making rules about
particular dangers is living by rules and not principles in a HUGE way.
Sandra
<< The second little girl had a habit of taking off for a day. She was killed
in her own home by her mother's ex boyfriend who was a sex offender. >>
Okay. Sorry if I mixed up the two stories. I thought only one was taken
from her home and the other disappeared while out and about.
If we simply keep our children in the house because there are sex offenders
in the world, they will miss riding bikes and playing with neighbors and
learning to be careful and cautious. Then when they're older and are really tired
of being on too short a leash, THEN they start practicing their own good
judgment, evasion, being with buddies, knowing where the nearest safe places and
phones and all are.
Helping children always make safer choices helps in EVERY way, in every
situation, not just with registered sex offender neighbors. Making rules about
particular dangers is living by rules and not principles in a HUGE way.
Sandra
[email protected]
That was the 13 year old who disappeared and was killed, and no one reported her missing until 2 days later. They assumed she'd gone to a friend's house, they said. They hadn't actually seen her since before she went on the church field trip, so it had been many days, more than two. That seems like the real problem, to me. I do know where my kid is, she tells me. She's pretty free to go places, but I'm involved and know what's going on, too. I can't imagine not touching base via cell phone for days...
dar
-- SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 4/19/05 9:47:15 AM, mummy124@... writes:
<< The second little girl had a habit of taking off for a day. She was killed
in her own home by her mother's ex boyfriend who was a sex offender. >>
Okay. Sorry if I mixed up the two stories. I thought only one was taken
from her home and the other disappeared while out and about.
If we simply keep our children in the house because there are sex offenders
in the world, they will miss riding bikes and playing with neighbors and
learning to be careful and cautious. Then when they're older and are really tired
of being on too short a leash, THEN they start practicing their own good
judgment, evasion, being with buddies, knowing where the nearest safe places and
phones and all are.
Helping children always make safer choices helps in EVERY way, in every
situation, not just with registered sex offender neighbors. Making rules about
particular dangers is living by rules and not principles in a HUGE way.
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
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dar
-- SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 4/19/05 9:47:15 AM, mummy124@... writes:
<< The second little girl had a habit of taking off for a day. She was killed
in her own home by her mother's ex boyfriend who was a sex offender. >>
Okay. Sorry if I mixed up the two stories. I thought only one was taken
from her home and the other disappeared while out and about.
If we simply keep our children in the house because there are sex offenders
in the world, they will miss riding bikes and playing with neighbors and
learning to be careful and cautious. Then when they're older and are really tired
of being on too short a leash, THEN they start practicing their own good
judgment, evasion, being with buddies, knowing where the nearest safe places and
phones and all are.
Helping children always make safer choices helps in EVERY way, in every
situation, not just with registered sex offender neighbors. Making rules about
particular dangers is living by rules and not principles in a HUGE way.
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links