Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] homesty (was discipline)
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/00 12:21:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mjcmbrwn@... writes:
<< I feel it is bad enough that some one has been hurt, without dishonest,
false
apologies rubbing salt into the wound. And if someone is feeling so hurt they
can't accept the apology, then that is part of the consequences of one's
actions too.
This attitude has not been popular with others though - esp. other who
demand
apologies, however insincere the apology might be! Personally, I think such
demands spring more from a wish to humiliate the 'hurter', rather than a wish
to mollify the 'hurtee'.
the 'wish to humiliate the hurter rather than a wish to mollify the hurtee'.
That is a very good point. Thanks Carol.
mjcmbrwn@... writes:
<< I feel it is bad enough that some one has been hurt, without dishonest,
false
apologies rubbing salt into the wound. And if someone is feeling so hurt they
can't accept the apology, then that is part of the consequences of one's
actions too.
This attitude has not been popular with others though - esp. other who
demand
apologies, however insincere the apology might be! Personally, I think such
demands spring more from a wish to humiliate the 'hurter', rather than a wish
to mollify the 'hurtee'.
>>I, too do this. My dh hubby is like yours, also. I had not thought about
the 'wish to humiliate the hurter rather than a wish to mollify the hurtee'.
That is a very good point. Thanks Carol.
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/3/2000 9:22:29 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
mjcmbrwn@... writes:
<< When one of the kids has done
something that has hurt another, I talk to them about it, but don't 'make'
them apologise. >>
I agree Carol... If Zak has snatched a train from another child, we ask him
how would be feel if someone did that to him. He usually comes up with "sad,
mad, hurt" Then we ask him how does he think the other person feels right
now about Zak's actions. Again he comes up with a feeling. I ask him if
there is anything he wants to do about the situation.. .Sometimes he says
sorry, sometimes he gives the item back, sometimes he says he needs time
alone in his room... It seems to depend on his mood and whose involved.
My dad (god rest his soul) was a terrible womanizer, gambler, and completely
self-centered and he was always saying sorry to my mum... My mum says "it's
easy to say sorry when you've done what you want" and I happen to agree with
that and it makes apologies seem very insincere.
Dawn F
mjcmbrwn@... writes:
<< When one of the kids has done
something that has hurt another, I talk to them about it, but don't 'make'
them apologise. >>
I agree Carol... If Zak has snatched a train from another child, we ask him
how would be feel if someone did that to him. He usually comes up with "sad,
mad, hurt" Then we ask him how does he think the other person feels right
now about Zak's actions. Again he comes up with a feeling. I ask him if
there is anything he wants to do about the situation.. .Sometimes he says
sorry, sometimes he gives the item back, sometimes he says he needs time
alone in his room... It seems to depend on his mood and whose involved.
My dad (god rest his soul) was a terrible womanizer, gambler, and completely
self-centered and he was always saying sorry to my mum... My mum says "it's
easy to say sorry when you've done what you want" and I happen to agree with
that and it makes apologies seem very insincere.
Dawn F
Amy
Carol,
I couldn't agree with you more. Feeling sorry, is after all, just that, a
feeling. You can't (imo) make someone feel something. We also try to
encourage the recipient of the apology to say "I forgive You". Again, we
don't force it, but it can give nice closure to the situation.
Amy
I couldn't agree with you more. Feeling sorry, is after all, just that, a
feeling. You can't (imo) make someone feel something. We also try to
encourage the recipient of the apology to say "I forgive You". Again, we
don't force it, but it can give nice closure to the situation.
Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 9:18 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] homesty (was discipline)
> I loved what you wrote about honesty, Beverley.
>
> One thing that I have trouble with is apologies. When one of the kids has
done
> something that has hurt another, I talk to them about it, but don't 'make'
> them apologise. But so many others, dh included, demand apologies be made.
My
> way is to talk to the kid about what has happenned, listen to his story,
and
> if he *is* sorry for what he has done, encourage him to apologise - and
> sometimes that means me going along too to hold a hand - apologising is
not
> easy. I don't 'make' the other accept the apology either.
>
> I feel it is bad enough that some one has been hurt, without dishonest,
false
> apologies rubbing salt into the wound. And if someone is feeling so hurt
they
> can't accept the apology, then that is part of the consequences of one's
> actions too.
>
> This attitude has not been popular with others though - esp. other who
demand
> apologies, however insincere the apology might be! Personally, I think
such
> demands spring more from a wish to humiliate the 'hurter', rather than a
wish
> to mollify the 'hurtee'.
>
> Carol
>
>
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[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/00 3:30:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< I ought to write a
rebuttal, don't you think? <g> >>
yes, Tracy you should! Everyone should. Things like that pushes my anger
button.
Julie
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< I ought to write a
rebuttal, don't you think? <g> >>
yes, Tracy you should! Everyone should. Things like that pushes my anger
button.
Julie
Tracy Oldfield
Thing is, it's another of those things that I just don't know where
to start. When I left school, at 16, disappointing many people as I
was realistically an Oxbridge candidate, one of the teachers told
me 'but I thought you were going to be a journalist!' This has
haunted me more and more in recent years, as I've found great
enjoyment and satisfaction in writing. I express myself much
better in type or even on the phone than in person, but I guess I
just don't have the knowledge of journalistc procedures to know
how to go about it. It's about time I learned a lot of things,
perhaps...
Tracy
to start. When I left school, at 16, disappointing many people as I
was realistically an Oxbridge candidate, one of the teachers told
me 'but I thought you were going to be a journalist!' This has
haunted me more and more in recent years, as I've found great
enjoyment and satisfaction in writing. I express myself much
better in type or even on the phone than in person, but I guess I
just don't have the knowledge of journalistc procedures to know
how to go about it. It's about time I learned a lot of things,
perhaps...
Tracy
On 4 Jul 2000, at 19:29, Jaam1224@... wrote:
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< I ought to write a
rebuttal, don't you think? <g> >>
yes, Tracy you should! Everyone should. Things like
that pushes my anger
button.
Julie
[email protected]
Tracy,
I saw a somewhere a lady wanted to be a writer, but was always afraid to
because she was not good at grammer. When many, many years later, she
learned that she did not need to be good at grammer that is what editors were
for. To be a writer, she just need to have something to say.
Just some thoughts,
Julie
I saw a somewhere a lady wanted to be a writer, but was always afraid to
because she was not good at grammer. When many, many years later, she
learned that she did not need to be good at grammer that is what editors were
for. To be a writer, she just need to have something to say.
Just some thoughts,
Julie
David Albert
Tracy Oldfield wrote:
in making future contacts, it wouldn't have helped you a bit! (Where do you
currently live? -- I've got lots of Quaker f(F)riends your side of the
water.)
David
--
I will touring the East Coast September 1-19, giving homeschooling talks and
workshops related to "And the Skylark Sings with Me". For dates, and
locations, check out my website at www.skylarksings.com or send an e-mail to
shantinik@...
> Thing is, it's another of those things that I just don't know whereAs an Oxford grad (Worcester '71), I can tell you for sure that, other than
> to start. When I left school, at 16, disappointing many people as I
> was realistically an Oxbridge candidate, one of the teachers told
> me 'but I thought you were going to be a journalist!' This has
> haunted me more and more in recent years, as I've found great
> enjoyment and satisfaction in writing. I express myself much
> better in type or even on the phone than in person, but I guess I
> just don't have the knowledge of journalistc procedures to know
> how to go about it.
in making future contacts, it wouldn't have helped you a bit! (Where do you
currently live? -- I've got lots of Quaker f(F)riends your side of the
water.)
David
--
I will touring the East Coast September 1-19, giving homeschooling talks and
workshops related to "And the Skylark Sings with Me". For dates, and
locations, check out my website at www.skylarksings.com or send an e-mail to
shantinik@...
[email protected]
BTW, an editor can be a friend or hubby. As long as they are efficent in the
grammer department.
I make on outline of thoughts, feelings, and ideas that I want to share, then
fill in the details from there. Just start and keep going....YOU CAN DO IT!
you share almost everyday with us.....
Julie
grammer department.
I make on outline of thoughts, feelings, and ideas that I want to share, then
fill in the details from there. Just start and keep going....YOU CAN DO IT!
you share almost everyday with us.....
Julie
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/4/2000 4:40:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< but I thought you were going to be a journalist!' This has
haunted me more and more in recent years, as I've found great
enjoyment and satisfaction in writing. I express myself much
better in type or even on the phone than in person, but I guess I
just don't have the knowledge of journalistc procedures to know
how to go about it. It's about time I learned a lot of things, >>
Tracy:
it's never too late to start anything and you don't have to have formal
education to write and get something published. Look at J.K. Rowling, a
single mother, who typed her first Harry Potter on a typewriter and because
she couldn't afford to photocopy it, typed it out again!!!! This is a woman
that it's estimated will make 40 million dollars this year.... no formal
education... I started writing (without a degree in journalism) for some on
line magazines and then for a local newspaper. Not once did they ask me
about my journalistic accomplishments. Thank god for spell check is all I
can say... I also spend time doing some public speaking now and have no
"official" background for that. Start small and then it will take off if
it's meant too... I would encourage you to go after your dreams while you are
young enough to benefit from the outcome.
Do you remember (you may not) all those years ago when the Open University
first started in England? I remember hearing about a woman who was going to
be 78 years old, who'd just finished University and gained her degree... What
an accomplishment for her. As they say in American... "you go girl"
Dawn F
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< but I thought you were going to be a journalist!' This has
haunted me more and more in recent years, as I've found great
enjoyment and satisfaction in writing. I express myself much
better in type or even on the phone than in person, but I guess I
just don't have the knowledge of journalistc procedures to know
how to go about it. It's about time I learned a lot of things, >>
Tracy:
it's never too late to start anything and you don't have to have formal
education to write and get something published. Look at J.K. Rowling, a
single mother, who typed her first Harry Potter on a typewriter and because
she couldn't afford to photocopy it, typed it out again!!!! This is a woman
that it's estimated will make 40 million dollars this year.... no formal
education... I started writing (without a degree in journalism) for some on
line magazines and then for a local newspaper. Not once did they ask me
about my journalistic accomplishments. Thank god for spell check is all I
can say... I also spend time doing some public speaking now and have no
"official" background for that. Start small and then it will take off if
it's meant too... I would encourage you to go after your dreams while you are
young enough to benefit from the outcome.
Do you remember (you may not) all those years ago when the Open University
first started in England? I remember hearing about a woman who was going to
be 78 years old, who'd just finished University and gained her degree... What
an accomplishment for her. As they say in American... "you go girl"
Dawn F
susan wilson
hi,
i agree w/ the position on 'empty/meaningless' apologies. it's silly,
superficial and imo ultimately fosters manipulation, particularly
emotional manipulation. this morning my dh and i were discussing
books like huxley's 'brave new world' and orwell's '1984' and movies
like mad max. though i've not really read these books or really
watched these movies (eeks! - too dark and mean for me to get all the
way through) it is my impression that these 'versions' of the future
have one definite thing in common (maybe more) which is a complete
lack of empathy and compassion for both the individual characters
themselves and anyone or anything else. i feel that a society's true
value rests w/ it's ability to be generous of spirit. so imo empathy
and compassion are critical skill to develop be it in a child or an
adult.
so i looked up honesty particularly it's etymology which is according
to my dictionary (i know it's not the best but it does give me a
starting point - hopefully i will soon be able to buy one of those
cool ones printed on onion skin paper and comes w/ a magnifying
glass:) honesty comes from honor: n.[me. honour< ofr.<l. honor, honos,
official dignity, repute, esteem]- official implies authority,
dignity - worth, merit, befitting; repute - to think again, esteem- to
value, appraise.
how would this concept of honesty- the one which forms when thinking
of these attribute - be translated into raising a child? i personally
would like my son to embody an authority over himself, to value both
himself and others w/out judgment, to reconsider his actions i.e just
because he can doesn't mean he should. to ultimately internalize a
blanket of empathy and compassion via thought and reflection for
everything from himself to the environment.
my next thought would be how does this natural show itself? when he
shares his things, thoughts, feels - parts of himself w/ others. when
he recognizes the same in another - when he recognizes when others are
sharing parts of themselves w/ him. when does he not show this? when
his ego steps in and is no longer a tool which can get him to do
something but becomes the goal - something which needs to be fed.
when he must be smarter, faster, better - winner at whatever. when he
acts w/out regard for another be it a person, animal, plant,
environment....
honesty is a core human trait and i believe is innate in all people
yet extremely fragile. it is my opinion that all things are possible
and we as parents can enhance or diminish (or push to the back burner
so to speak:) any trait in our children be it done consciously or
unconsciously. i guess i believe in the socratic view of vigilant
questioning of oneself and ones actions and believe that to be truly
honest you needs to actively question everything but particularly
oneself.
-susan
i agree w/ the position on 'empty/meaningless' apologies. it's silly,
superficial and imo ultimately fosters manipulation, particularly
emotional manipulation. this morning my dh and i were discussing
books like huxley's 'brave new world' and orwell's '1984' and movies
like mad max. though i've not really read these books or really
watched these movies (eeks! - too dark and mean for me to get all the
way through) it is my impression that these 'versions' of the future
have one definite thing in common (maybe more) which is a complete
lack of empathy and compassion for both the individual characters
themselves and anyone or anything else. i feel that a society's true
value rests w/ it's ability to be generous of spirit. so imo empathy
and compassion are critical skill to develop be it in a child or an
adult.
so i looked up honesty particularly it's etymology which is according
to my dictionary (i know it's not the best but it does give me a
starting point - hopefully i will soon be able to buy one of those
cool ones printed on onion skin paper and comes w/ a magnifying
glass:) honesty comes from honor: n.[me. honour< ofr.<l. honor, honos,
official dignity, repute, esteem]- official implies authority,
dignity - worth, merit, befitting; repute - to think again, esteem- to
value, appraise.
how would this concept of honesty- the one which forms when thinking
of these attribute - be translated into raising a child? i personally
would like my son to embody an authority over himself, to value both
himself and others w/out judgment, to reconsider his actions i.e just
because he can doesn't mean he should. to ultimately internalize a
blanket of empathy and compassion via thought and reflection for
everything from himself to the environment.
my next thought would be how does this natural show itself? when he
shares his things, thoughts, feels - parts of himself w/ others. when
he recognizes the same in another - when he recognizes when others are
sharing parts of themselves w/ him. when does he not show this? when
his ego steps in and is no longer a tool which can get him to do
something but becomes the goal - something which needs to be fed.
when he must be smarter, faster, better - winner at whatever. when he
acts w/out regard for another be it a person, animal, plant,
environment....
honesty is a core human trait and i believe is innate in all people
yet extremely fragile. it is my opinion that all things are possible
and we as parents can enhance or diminish (or push to the back burner
so to speak:) any trait in our children be it done consciously or
unconsciously. i guess i believe in the socratic view of vigilant
questioning of oneself and ones actions and believe that to be truly
honest you needs to actively question everything but particularly
oneself.
-susan
Tracy Oldfield
Well, here's a start, then <g> There's a big
discrepancy of attitudes towards home-ed between
the various Local Education Authorities (LEAs) in
England. I'd like to write a piece examining this, and
the reasons why, and the true legalities of the system.
(I'll be asking Stella a favour later <g>) I'm lucky
enough here to be in a friendly authority (ie we are
left pretty much alone, though there is an LEA official
with the job of 'advisor.') there are many who aren't.
I hope to get it published in a national newpaper or
parenting magazine (or both.) The other thing I want
to look at is this co-sleeping thing, though it might be
a little intimidating interviewing Deborah Jackson
who could probably do the same job (she's a
journalist who wrote 'Three in a Bed,' and 'Do Not
Disturb,' two great books from an 'attachment'
perspective on parenting.
If this is an innapropriate forum for my ramblings, I'll
desist. Just boot me in the head and tell me <g>
Tracy
discrepancy of attitudes towards home-ed between
the various Local Education Authorities (LEAs) in
England. I'd like to write a piece examining this, and
the reasons why, and the true legalities of the system.
(I'll be asking Stella a favour later <g>) I'm lucky
enough here to be in a friendly authority (ie we are
left pretty much alone, though there is an LEA official
with the job of 'advisor.') there are many who aren't.
I hope to get it published in a national newpaper or
parenting magazine (or both.) The other thing I want
to look at is this co-sleeping thing, though it might be
a little intimidating interviewing Deborah Jackson
who could probably do the same job (she's a
journalist who wrote 'Three in a Bed,' and 'Do Not
Disturb,' two great books from an 'attachment'
perspective on parenting.
If this is an innapropriate forum for my ramblings, I'll
desist. Just boot me in the head and tell me <g>
Tracy
On 4 Jul 2000, at 19:54, Jaam1224@... wrote:
BTW, an editor can be a friend or hubby. As long as
they are efficent in the
grammer department.
I make on outline of thoughts, feelings, and ideas that
I want to share, then
fill in the details from there. Just start and keep
going....YOU CAN DO IT!
you share almost everyday with us.....
Julie
Tracy Oldfield
David, I'm in West Yorkshire, Kirklees to be a little
more precise... I don't doubt that the Oxbridge
experience is somewhat overrated in the big
scheme of things, though if I'd had the choice it
would have been Cambridge for me, I even shout
for them in sports and especially University Challenge
<g>
Tracy
more precise... I don't doubt that the Oxbridge
experience is somewhat overrated in the big
scheme of things, though if I'd had the choice it
would have been Cambridge for me, I even shout
for them in sports and especially University Challenge
<g>
Tracy
On 4 Jul 2000, at 16:50, David Albert wrote:
As an Oxford grad (Worcester '71), I can tell you for
sure that, other than
in making future contacts, it wouldn't have helped you
a bit! (Where do you
currently live? -- I've got lots of Quaker f(F)riends
your side of the
water.)
David
Tracy Oldfield
Well, I don't know if that's encouragement or criticism of my
grammar! Only joking <g> Thanks for the thought :-)
Tracy
grammar! Only joking <g> Thanks for the thought :-)
Tracy
On 4 Jul 2000, at 19:48, Jaam1224@... wrote:
Tracy,
I saw a somewhere a lady wanted to be a writer, but was
always afraid to
because she was not good at grammer. When many, many
years later, she
learned that she did not need to be good at grammer
that is what editors were
for. To be a writer, she just need to have something
to say.
Just some thoughts,
Julie
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/5/2000 2:27:41 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< There's a big
discrepancy of attitudes towards home-ed between
the various Local Education Authorities (LEAs) in
England. I'd like to write a piece examining this >>
Sounds like you know what you want to do, now go do the research and then
write it (Lots of Encouragement from me)... I know I do my best writing when
I'm passionate about something (such as the daycare issue)... How wonderful
for your daughters to see you so committed to something and then seeing how
to research and actually get the info to write about and then publish it.
What a wonderful role model for women.
Dawn F
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< There's a big
discrepancy of attitudes towards home-ed between
the various Local Education Authorities (LEAs) in
England. I'd like to write a piece examining this >>
Sounds like you know what you want to do, now go do the research and then
write it (Lots of Encouragement from me)... I know I do my best writing when
I'm passionate about something (such as the daycare issue)... How wonderful
for your daughters to see you so committed to something and then seeing how
to research and actually get the info to write about and then publish it.
What a wonderful role model for women.
Dawn F
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/5/00 6:34:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, NumoAstro@...
writes:
<< I'm passionate about something (such as the daycare issue). >>
Dawn,
I would love to read some of your stuff on this....this is, also, one of my
passions. You can e-mail me privately, so we don't get another heated debate
going. (even though I missed the last one) hee hee hee..
Julie
writes:
<< I'm passionate about something (such as the daycare issue). >>
Dawn,
I would love to read some of your stuff on this....this is, also, one of my
passions. You can e-mail me privately, so we don't get another heated debate
going. (even though I missed the last one) hee hee hee..
Julie
[email protected]
The topic of honesty and discipline got me thinking of my ds (2)--there have
been a few times when he wanted to do something and he knew it wasn't
allowed, so he would tell me, "Go inside, mommy."
I thought it was so sweet and innocent to tell me that so openly. So I just
told him, "You're still not supposed to do (whatever) even when I'm not
here." And reiterate why I didn't want him to do it. He sort of pondered that
and seemed to think it made sense.
But he still wanted to do it.
:-) Diane
been a few times when he wanted to do something and he knew it wasn't
allowed, so he would tell me, "Go inside, mommy."
I thought it was so sweet and innocent to tell me that so openly. So I just
told him, "You're still not supposed to do (whatever) even when I'm not
here." And reiterate why I didn't want him to do it. He sort of pondered that
and seemed to think it made sense.
But he still wanted to do it.
:-) Diane
Bonnie Painter
susan,
that was beautifully written and it really struck a nerve with me. Thank
you for your honesty.
Bonnie
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
that was beautifully written and it really struck a nerve with me. Thank
you for your honesty.
Bonnie
>From: susan wilson <fxfireob@...>________________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] homesty (was discipline)
>Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:07:21 -0500
>
>
>hi,
>
>i agree w/ the position on 'empty/meaningless' apologies. it's silly,
>superficial and imo ultimately fosters manipulation, particularly
>emotional manipulation. this morning my dh and i were discussing
>books like huxley's 'brave new world' and orwell's '1984' and movies
>like mad max. though i've not really read these books or really
>watched these movies (eeks! - too dark and mean for me to get all the
>way through) it is my impression that these 'versions' of the future
>have one definite thing in common (maybe more) which is a complete
>lack of empathy and compassion for both the individual characters
>themselves and anyone or anything else. i feel that a society's true
>value rests w/ it's ability to be generous of spirit. so imo empathy
>and compassion are critical skill to develop be it in a child or an
>adult.
>
>so i looked up honesty particularly it's etymology which is according
>to my dictionary (i know it's not the best but it does give me a
>starting point - hopefully i will soon be able to buy one of those
>cool ones printed on onion skin paper and comes w/ a magnifying
>glass:) honesty comes from honor: n.[me. honour< ofr.<l. honor, honos,
>official dignity, repute, esteem]- official implies authority,
>dignity - worth, merit, befitting; repute - to think again, esteem- to
>value, appraise.
>
>how would this concept of honesty- the one which forms when thinking
>of these attribute - be translated into raising a child? i personally
>would like my son to embody an authority over himself, to value both
>himself and others w/out judgment, to reconsider his actions i.e just
>because he can doesn't mean he should. to ultimately internalize a
>blanket of empathy and compassion via thought and reflection for
>everything from himself to the environment.
>
>my next thought would be how does this natural show itself? when he
>shares his things, thoughts, feels - parts of himself w/ others. when
>he recognizes the same in another - when he recognizes when others are
>sharing parts of themselves w/ him. when does he not show this? when
>his ego steps in and is no longer a tool which can get him to do
>something but becomes the goal - something which needs to be fed.
>when he must be smarter, faster, better - winner at whatever. when he
>acts w/out regard for another be it a person, animal, plant,
>environment....
>
>honesty is a core human trait and i believe is innate in all people
>yet extremely fragile. it is my opinion that all things are possible
>and we as parents can enhance or diminish (or push to the back burner
>so to speak:) any trait in our children be it done consciously or
>unconsciously. i guess i believe in the socratic view of vigilant
>questioning of oneself and ones actions and believe that to be truly
>honest you needs to actively question everything but particularly
>oneself.
>
>-susan
>
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Robin & Beverley Paine
>how would this concept of honesty- the one which forms when thinkingself control, self esteem, self confidence, plus empathy. Empathy is a good
>of these attribute - be translated into raising a child? i personally
>would like my son to embody an authority over himself, to value both
>himself and others w/out judgment, to reconsider his actions i.e just
>because he can doesn't mean he should. to ultimately internalize a
>blanket of empathy and compassion via thought and reflection for
>everything from himself to the environment.
word, isn't it?
>my next thought would be how does this natural show itself? when heThat is when we are acting socially in the world, other than being on our own.
>shares his things, thoughts, feels - parts of himself w/ others.
when
>he recognizes the same in another - when he recognizes when others areI see what you are saying, but am a little worried about what I perceive to
>sharing parts of themselves w/ him. when does he not show this? when
>his ego steps in and is no longer a tool which can get him to do
>something but becomes the goal - something which needs to be fed.
>when he must be smarter, faster, better - winner at whatever. when he
>acts w/out regard for another be it a person, animal, plant,
>environment....
be a negative in the ego comment - having become a survivor in life because
of ego. My ego construct protected me. It isn't the best.. construct to
have, but it was a natural survival tool, born from necessity. I am
repairing the damage as an aware, conscious thinking reflective adult. I
think I prefer a model of child (and inner child) raising that treats the
ego as a healthy partner.
Winning, smarter, faster, etc isn't necessarily an undesirable state,
although competition is corrupted - the empathy, understanding and
compassion is stripped from the competitive act in social settings.... many
competitors compete against self. It is usually the audience that does the
corrupting, I feel...
I agree that the doing is so much more important than the goal, but in
effect what we are showing are children is that the doing is the goal,
rather than some long term point in time or object...
Cooperation and compromise go with empathy and compassion.
Honesty is core of all of these.
>unconsciously. i guess i believe in the socratic view of vigilantagreed! this has been my path to honesty.
>questioning of oneself and ones actions and believe that to be truly
>honest you needs to actively question everything but particularly
>oneself.
>all the best,
Beverley Paine
Joel's HOMESCHOOLING EXPO web page http://www.dove.net/dosborne/expo
Author "Getting Started with Homeschooling - Practical Considerations" and
"Learning in the Absence of Education - Essays on Homeschooling", both $20
plus $3 postage
B Paine, PO Box 371 Yankalilla 5203, 08 8558 3212
http://adelaide.net.au/~rnbpaine
SA HOMESCHOOLING EXPO Saturday 22nd July - Celebrating and showcasing the
diversity of homeschooling practice in South Australia!
Billy or Nancy
Okay, normally I can ignore typos but I had to change the subject line on
this one.
Is it just my warped mind, or did anyone else keep opening these messages
thinking that they would contain discussions about really messy houses? I
thought homesty was a clever word. Obviously derived from pigsty and perhaps
peoplesty would be technically more accurate, but homesty just had a good
sound to it. Oh well.
Sorry if I mislead you into reading this message and thinking I had
something to contribute about honesty.
Billy
FUN Books
http://www.FUN-Books.com
this one.
Is it just my warped mind, or did anyone else keep opening these messages
thinking that they would contain discussions about really messy houses? I
thought homesty was a clever word. Obviously derived from pigsty and perhaps
peoplesty would be technically more accurate, but homesty just had a good
sound to it. Oh well.
Sorry if I mislead you into reading this message and thinking I had
something to contribute about honesty.
Billy
FUN Books
http://www.FUN-Books.com
Tracy Oldfield
Well, honestly!!!! LOL
Tracy
Tracy
On 7 Jul 2000, at 9:01, Billy or Nancy wrote:
Sorry if I mislead you into reading this message and
thinking I had
something to contribute about honesty.
Billy
Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall
If Zak has snatched a train from another child, we ask him
Thomas snatches a toy away from another child and the child begins to cry.
"Thomas, that was not a very nice thing to do. Look how sad (so-and-so) is. They would like to finish their turn with that toy"
"NO! GO AWAY!!!!" Shouts Thomas
"Please don't yell at me, Thomas. You're not being very nice to us."
"AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!" and either runs away, or falls onto the toy on the floor, protecting it with his body.
Mother sighs deeply, other child's parents are annoyed, other child still crying...etc.....
He is exceptionally stubborn, spirited and hyperactive. HE screams and kicks for all he's worth when he needs a diaper changed or it's time to get ready for bed. All our calm but firm insistence is for naught. It seems to make no difference to him.
On the other hand, my younger child, Alex (just 15 months younger than Thomas) is a piece of cake sompared to his brother. He is easy going, gentle, easy to reason with, etc. It is VERY hard not to play favorites when Thomas is having one of his difficult days and it is time to choose who gets to go with Mom or Dad to run an errand, or whatever.
Some of the time, when Thomas is being mean and nasty to his brother (pushing, yelling, taking things) I tell tearful Alex just not to play with him for a while and try to get him interested in something else. But it hardly seems fair to punish Alex for his brother's actions by taking him away from the activity in question. The other half of the time, I have to send Thomas to his room to be alone, as he is just not fit company for other human beings. He plays quiety in there and often emerges in a better humor. Sometimes he refuses to come out again, prefering to play by himself after being over-stimulated and over-emotional.
Nanci K.
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>how would be feel if someone did that to him. He usually comes up with "sad, mad, hurt" I ask him if there is anything he wants to do about the situation.. .Sometimes he says >sorry, sometimes he gives the item back, sometimes he says he needs time alone in his room... It seems to depend on his mood and whose involved.So what about my hyperactive son? How do I handle that when it comes to appropriate behavior? The above scenairo just does not work with him. Here is an example:
>Dawn F
Thomas snatches a toy away from another child and the child begins to cry.
"Thomas, that was not a very nice thing to do. Look how sad (so-and-so) is. They would like to finish their turn with that toy"
"NO! GO AWAY!!!!" Shouts Thomas
"Please don't yell at me, Thomas. You're not being very nice to us."
"AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!" and either runs away, or falls onto the toy on the floor, protecting it with his body.
Mother sighs deeply, other child's parents are annoyed, other child still crying...etc.....
He is exceptionally stubborn, spirited and hyperactive. HE screams and kicks for all he's worth when he needs a diaper changed or it's time to get ready for bed. All our calm but firm insistence is for naught. It seems to make no difference to him.
On the other hand, my younger child, Alex (just 15 months younger than Thomas) is a piece of cake sompared to his brother. He is easy going, gentle, easy to reason with, etc. It is VERY hard not to play favorites when Thomas is having one of his difficult days and it is time to choose who gets to go with Mom or Dad to run an errand, or whatever.
Some of the time, when Thomas is being mean and nasty to his brother (pushing, yelling, taking things) I tell tearful Alex just not to play with him for a while and try to get him interested in something else. But it hardly seems fair to punish Alex for his brother's actions by taking him away from the activity in question. The other half of the time, I have to send Thomas to his room to be alone, as he is just not fit company for other human beings. He plays quiety in there and often emerges in a better humor. Sometimes he refuses to come out again, prefering to play by himself after being over-stimulated and over-emotional.
Nanci K.
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Tracy Oldfield
Nanci, have you read the books by Faber and Mazlish? they're
supposed to be for older children, but the principles are the same.
Nancy Samalin's books are based on the same work, Haim
Ginott's parenting workshops. They outline 5 skills to engage co-
operation...
" 1. Describe. Describe what you see, or describe the problem.
2. Give information
3. Say it with a word
4. Talk about your feelings
5. Write a note"
In the situation you've described I can see 3 of these skills that
might be useful. Describing the probelm, or what you see... "I
see an upset child!!" Give information... "We don't snatch"
"Johnny hasn't finished with this" and talking about your feelings.
I don't know what your feelings were, here, and maybe some
people would think it's inappropriate to tell a small child how you
feel, but I think that it's a bit dishonest to act like you're not mad if
you are <g> Another point that's mentioned is that asking how
someone thinks another might feel about something can be putting
them on the spot, so I say 'I'm sure you can think about how you
would feel if this was happening to you.' It looks a bit long-
winded, but they might actualy think about it, rather than feeling
challenged and twisting their toe onto the ground...
Another thing I try to do (need to stick this on the inside of my
specs I think...) is to talk to the 'injured' party, commiserate and
empathise with the 'snatchee...'
HTH
Tracy
supposed to be for older children, but the principles are the same.
Nancy Samalin's books are based on the same work, Haim
Ginott's parenting workshops. They outline 5 skills to engage co-
operation...
" 1. Describe. Describe what you see, or describe the problem.
2. Give information
3. Say it with a word
4. Talk about your feelings
5. Write a note"
In the situation you've described I can see 3 of these skills that
might be useful. Describing the probelm, or what you see... "I
see an upset child!!" Give information... "We don't snatch"
"Johnny hasn't finished with this" and talking about your feelings.
I don't know what your feelings were, here, and maybe some
people would think it's inappropriate to tell a small child how you
feel, but I think that it's a bit dishonest to act like you're not mad if
you are <g> Another point that's mentioned is that asking how
someone thinks another might feel about something can be putting
them on the spot, so I say 'I'm sure you can think about how you
would feel if this was happening to you.' It looks a bit long-
winded, but they might actualy think about it, rather than feeling
challenged and twisting their toe onto the ground...
Another thing I try to do (need to stick this on the inside of my
specs I think...) is to talk to the 'injured' party, commiserate and
empathise with the 'snatchee...'
HTH
Tracy
On 7 Jul 2000, at 13:10, Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall wrote:
Thomas snatches a toy away from another child and the
child begins to cry.
"Thomas, that was not a very nice thing to do. Look
how sad (so-and-so) is. They would like to finish
their turn with that toy"
"NO! GO AWAY!!!!" Shouts Thomas
"Please don't yell at me, Thomas. You're not being
very nice to us."
"AAAAAAAHHHHHHH!" and either runs away, or falls onto
the toy on the floor, protecting it with his body.
Mother sighs deeply, other child's parents are annoyed,
other child still crying...etc.....