b0b_5mith

Hello everyone,

My name is Bob and my wife and I are considering keeping our
daughter home in September instead of sending her off to
Kindergarten. Since I am employed full-time, my wife feels that most
of the pressure will be on her. Right now she's a bit ambivalent to
the whole idea. Some days, she's on board and even talking to some
of the other preschool mom's about why it makes sense, while other
days she attempts to convince me that we should send her to
Kindergarten and wait until first grade to try homeschooling.

I keep trying to tell her that there really isn't any "pressure" on
her at all. I'm advocating an unschooling approach especially since
it's Kindergarten and she'd only be missing story time, singing and
crafts, which we've been doing at home all along anyway, and will
continue to do.

She has decided that she would prefer a more structured approach,
yet she also claims to be feeling overwhelmed at the thought of
homeschooling. I countered that the feeling of being overwhelmed is
likely at least in part due to her considering this structured
approach and all that it will entail day to day. I said that she
could just allow our daughter to live and enjoy the day-to-day with
her mommy and her baby brother... that she will learn all sorts of
valuable insights from the every day experiences of living.

But I think she thinks that unschoolers are running from museums, to
farms, and from nature preserves to senior homes, etc. I told her
that while I think that these things are done, they certainly aren't
done every day and perhaps not even once a week, and that our
daughter will learn while shopping with Mommy; by talking with the
both of us; by playing with her little brother; by playing by
herself; exploring our back yard; looking at books; etc.

Again, my wife isn't against the idea, but I think she is very
overwhelmed imagining all sorts of requirements on her that I keep
asserting won't really be there at all.

So I'm requesting a pep talk so to speak from as many of you who are
on the front line as are willing to respond. Especially from those
of you who are working with younger children and are using an
unstructured or at the very least less structured approach. While I
certainly have nothing against the structured approach, the
suggestion that we teach my daughter Latin may well be enough to
ensure that she ends up enrolled in Kindergarten this Fall, and I
certainly don't want that to happen. Thanks in advance for any
comments and encouragement that are offered.

Warm regards,

Bob

nellebelle

>>>>>>>>>>Some days, she's on board and even talking to some
of the other preschool mom's about why it makes sense, while other
days she attempts to convince me that we should send her to
Kindergarten and wait until first grade to try homeschooling.>>>>>>>>>>

I started out homeschooling when my first child was 5. I figured that kindergarten was the PERFECT time to give it a try, because even if I decided it didn't work out she would not have missed much. I guarantee your child will not be behind the kids who did go to kindergarten - despite the popular view that kindergarten is so critical for getting kids ready for school.

Another benefit to keeping her home instead of kindergarten is that she won't learn any of those negative school lessons or become dependent on someone else to tell her what she should learn.

I was involved with a local homeschool support group that first year. That may have been more important for me than for my children though. The group was active with fun stuff - regular park days where we just hung out, played, and talked, and meeting at one another's houses for the kids to play. We had a field trip about once every 3 months. Not that field trips are needed, just to back up your saying that field trips don't have to happen every week. The best field trips were the ones with really small groups anyway.

I also had a toddler that first year. I had ideas for *teaching* my older dd, but in the end we were so busy playing, visiting with friends, and regular household stuff that we rarely ever found time to have any actual lessons. I did present some phonics, but it was clear that dd wasn't getting it, so I put it aside and then she started reading anyway, at which point the phonics didn't matter.

In my early years of homeschooling I focused on learning through playing games and other daily activities. As we went along, I learned more about unschooling and that is where we are now.

It's easy, it's fun, and your kids will thrive.

If your wife wants "structure", she can make plans to schedule time in her day to play games with your dd, read to her, go fun places like children's museums & the park, make playdough together, etcetera. But really, some of my kids best learning has been when we were busy focusing on something else, not those times when I was trying to teach them!

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

b0b_5mith

--- In [email protected], "nellebelle" <nellebelle@c...> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>Some days, she's on board and even talking to some
> of the other preschool mom's about why it makes sense, while other
> days she attempts to convince me that we should send her to
> Kindergarten and wait until first grade to try homeschooling.>>>>>>>>>>
>
> I started out homeschooling when my first child was 5. I figured that kindergarten was
the PERFECT time to give it a try, because even if I decided it didn't work out she would not
have missed much. I guarantee your child will not be behind the kids who did go to
kindergarten - despite the popular view that kindergarten is so critical for getting kids
ready for school.
>
> Another benefit to keeping her home instead of kindergarten is that she won't learn any
of those negative school lessons or become dependent on someone else to tell her what
she should learn.


Hearing that is very encouraging. I too think that Kindergarten is the ideal time to try,
nothing to lose really and I suspect subsequent years will follow suit.

> I was involved with a local homeschool support group that first year. That may have
been more important for me than for my children though.


Could you have survived with only online support groups, and just had "play dates" with
other friends and their kids (home schooled or otherwise.) I mean, did it matter to the kids
that they were with other home schoolers or was it just important to be with other kids. Or
was that not really that important either?

>
> I also had a toddler that first year. I had ideas for *teaching* my older dd, but in the
end we were so busy playing, visiting with friends, and regular household stuff that we
rarely ever found time to have any actual lessons. I did present some phonics, but it was
clear that dd wasn't getting it, so I put it aside and then she started reading anyway, at
which point the phonics didn't matter.
>
> In my early years of homeschooling I focused on learning through playing games and
other daily activities. As we went along, I learned more about unschooling and that is
where we are now.
>
> It's easy, it's fun, and your kids will thrive.
>
> If your wife wants "structure", she can make plans to schedule time in her day to play
games with your dd, read to her, go fun places like children's museums & the park, make
playdough together, etcetera. But really, some of my kids best learning has been when we
were busy focusing on something else, not those times when I was trying to teach them!
>


Mary Ellen,

Everything you said was really encouraging. My daughter has two years of half-day pre-
school. She's already had Kindergarten as far as I'm concerned. I just want to see what
happens if we take her away from the peer social scene. I especially liked your suggestion
about "structure" at the end. Thanks so much.

Bob

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/12/2005 1:09:33 AM Central Standard Time,
rws@... writes:

Could you have survived with only online support groups, and just had "play
dates" with
other friends and their kids (home schooled or otherwise.) I mean, did it
matter to the kids
that they were with other home schoolers or was it just important to be with
other kids. Or
was that not really that important either?



~~~

When we started, we knew very few homeschoolers. But we lived in a
neighborhood where the kids already knew other kids. It wasn't much of an issue.
Online was the ONLY support I had and it CAN be done. Here I am, 10 years
later. :)

I was thinking of another reason your wife may be resisting. Maybe she's
not resisting homeschooling at all, but the idea that you're so adamant about
it. Maybe it makes her feel "kept" in some inarticulate way. I don't want to
use the word "trapped", but maybe she was looking forward to time to breathe
while your daughter is at school.

It's completely okay to feel that way! I need alone time quite regularly.
I need time when no one is talking to me and when I feel no one is *about* to
talk to me. I feel very psychologically connected to the energy of others
in my house, and I need to disconnect once in a while. Maybe your wife feels
the same way (and maybe doesn't realize it, yet), and needs reassurance that
she'll be able to disconnect sometimes, too.

I think it's worth exploring together. It doesn't mean she doesn't love her
daughter or anything like that. Being connected to a dependent human 24/7
is difficult for some of us. It's difficult for me. I recognize it and make
space for myself.

It's so rare for a man to "get" unschooling right away. You're a breath of
fresh air.

Karen
www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jackie Chovanes

On Apr 11, 2005, at 3:52 PM, b0b_5mith wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> My name is Bob and my wife and I are considering keeping our
> daughter home in September instead of sending her off to
> Kindergarten. Since I am employed full-time, my wife feels that most
> of the pressure will be on her. Right now she's a bit ambivalent to
> the whole idea. Some days, she's on board and even talking to some
> of the other preschool mom's about why it makes sense, while other
> days she attempts to convince me that we should send her to
> Kindergarten and wait until first grade to try homeschooling.

My situation is similar to yours, in that I have an almost 5 yo dd who
would be going to kindergarten in the fall, and also a 2 yo dd, and I'm
due with our third dd in July. I also stay at home while dh works. I
was thinking that perhaps your wife is feeling ambivalent because she
isn't sure she can meet the needs of both of your children now that one
of them is school aged -- I say this because it's something I sometimes
have doubts about. Am I shortchanging dd1 when she wants to go to the
Arboretum, but it's time for dd2's nap? I feel guilty that I can't
read as many chapters of "Little House in the Big Woods" as dd1 would
like because dd2 needs me to play with her, too. I think it's a
natural part of parenting more than one child, but when you take on the
added responsibility of educating your children yourself, rather than
passing that onto the school system, it can seem overwhelming - not
only do you have the guilt that you are not meeting their emotional
needs, but added on to that is the feeling that now you're also
neglecting their education!

It helps me to focus on how much time I do spend with dd1, how much we
do get to do together each day, and it is getting easier and easier to
include dd2 in a lot of things as she is getting older and more
interested in the same things as dd1. It also helps me to look at how
much learning dd1 does on her own -- watching TV, playing, creating,
interacting with the things in her environment (including some things I
never would have suspected would have been such a rich source of
learning for her -- yesterday, she found an old bag of walnuts in their
shells left over from Christmas. She started out by painting them with
watercolors, then they became color coded food for her different Barbie
Fairytopia dolls, then they were eggs out of which were going to hatch
new baby fairies, then they were money she used to play pet store, then
she tried cracking them with a nutcracker and then a lobster hammer,
and finally, she put the nut meats in a hollowed out rock to leave on
her toy shelf in case she or her sister got hungry later. I mean, you
can't buy this kind of experience at the most expensive private
kindergarten in the country!)

As far as friends go, so far all of our friends have been
non-homeschoolers we've met in our neighborhood and through a weekly
playgroup we attend. Since these children will all be attending school
eventually, I've had it in the back of my mind that we need to connect
with some homeschooling families soon. Luckily for us, there are lots
of homeschoolers in our area, and we've begun attending a monthly
gathering of homeschooling parents and children which focuses on
textile arts -- knitting, spinning, weaving, etc. It's an avid
interest of mine, so I really enjoy it, while the kids love getting
together with other kids. Some people do textile projects, others play
and socialize, most do a bit of both, and everyone's happy.

For field trips and such, we do a lot of things on the weekends, when
dh is around. We go to fairs, expos, on picnics, fishing, on hikes and
walks and drives -- I can't stress enough how important it is to have
him participate as much as he does. He often takes dd1 with him on
"expeditions" to Home Depot, the sawmill, the feed store, the tractor
store, livestock auctions, and he's looking forward to including dd2
now that she's showing some interest in going along without me. That
will give me some alone time with baby #3, and it's so good for the
older girls to have that special time with their dad. During the week,
I take them everywhere with me -- the bank, the grocery store, the post
office, etc. and we go to a playgroup on Wednesdays, have a
long-standing playdate with another family on Thursdays, go to the
library one day. We don't do a lot of elaborate field trips, but when
we visit family members in Philadelphia, we do go to museums and the
like.

Sorry this is getting so long, I really just wanted to say that I
understand how it can feel overwhelming, and they way I try to fight
that is to look at how much we do accomplish just by living our lives
in the way that makes us happy. It might help your wife for you to
assure her that she's not on her own in this, and that you will be
there to support her and to do things with the kids so she can have a
much needed break, too.

Best of luck to you -- I second what another poster said about your
being remarkably enlightened about unschooling -- how cool.

Jackie Chovanes
jchovanes@...

Elizabeth Hill

**

Could you have survived with only online support groups, and just had "play dates" with
other friends and their kids (home schooled or otherwise.) I mean, did it matter to the kids
that they were with other home schoolers or was it just important to be with other kids. Or
was that not really that important either?**

For me, it has been really valuable to spend time hanging out with other homeschoolers at a weekly park day. We've had lots of good discussions about how kids learn, and the kids and moms have made some lasting friendships. When I hear of homeschoolers who don't go to a park day, I think "I couldn't do that", because I wouldn't like the isolation. (I started off with a very active boy who loved the park but wasn't enthused about going other places. If we didn't go to the park, and on playdates with people we met at the park, we wouldn't have gone anywhere.) (Well, except the toy store.)

Within my parkgroup we exchange hand-me-downs, trade off playdates and babysitting, listen to and support each other, and really enjoy each other's company. I've moved, but still drive 65 miles each way most weeks to see my park friends. (OK, sometimes twice a week.)

(OK, it takes time to get this close. Doesn't happen the first week or month.)

Betsy

b0b_5mith

Hi Karen,

You raise several good points. I'm sure on some levels she was
looking forward to some time to herself and I agree that it's normal
to want to just get away sometimes. I don't know too many other men
who take baths, but I do if for no other reason just to get away for
20 minutes with a good book and just "chill out" or rather warm up!

Since my job is one that she can do too, I've suggested maybe
alternating work days so that one day she'll work and I'll spend time
with the kids and do housework, and the next she'll stay home and
I'll go to work. I'm not sure if it will fly or not, but we'll see.

I'll need to let her know that when Daddy comes home, Mommy can
retire for awhile and collect her thoughts, take a bath, go for a
walk, etc. Thanks also for clarifying the whole support group thing.
It's mentioned so often, that I've begun to wonder whether or not we
can do it without the assistance of a local support group. There are
a few options nearby, but they are about 40 minutes away, and
wouldn't be as easy as just getting together with our neighbors and
friends with kids who live right nearby.

Thanks for your suggestions and thoughts. I really appreciate it.

Bob

Pam Sorooshian

On Apr 12, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:

>
> (OK, it takes time to get this close. Doesn't happen the first week
> or month.)

It takes time and it takes effort. A core group has to make it a
priority to show up to park days consistently - the kids have to be
confident that they will have friends there. If that consistency
doesn't happen, the park days won't take off and become the wonderful
resources that they can be. New people who come one week and then miss
a few and then come back once and then miss a few more weeks are making
it hard on themselves - sometimes people do this and then complain that
their kids weren't welcomed into the group.

I know that it can be a little hard for a new kid to "break in" to an
existing park day group with kids who have been together for years.
Showing up irregularly makes that break-in time a lot harder and people
sometimes give up way too quickly, thinking their kid didn't get along
with the other kids there. The kids in our group are great - the want
to like new kids, they really truly do welcome them, but they're also
preoccupied sometimes with their own ongoing games and activities -
they sometimes have games going on that they've been playing for weeks
or months. I know that can be a little intimidating - some kids seem to
jump right in and make friends immediately - in a few weeks it seems
like they've been part of the group forever. Others take longer to warm
up.

-pam

[email protected]

> Could you have survived with only online support groups, and just
> had "play dates" with
> other friends and their kids (home schooled or otherwise.) I mean,
> did it matter to the kids
> that they were with other home schoolers or was it just important to
> be with other kids. Or
> was that not really that important either?**
>

When Rain was little - up until 8 or so - most of her friends were other
homeschoolers, and our local group was a focal point for most of her
socializing, either formally or informally. We went to lots of activities
and met lots of kids. I got some support there, although I probably got
more support online - I've been online since Rain was a year old and
started participating in homeschooling email lists by the time he was 2
or 3. We also moved every few years, so my online support friends stayed
the same while our groups changed.

From the time Rain was 9 until now, most of her real-life friends have
been schooled kids who shared some of her other interests, with a few
exceptions. She does know a lot of unschooled teens online, and she sees
them once or twice a year when people came to party at the farm or met up
elsewhere, but her day-to-day friends were mostly schooled. It seemed to
work out just fine. She had a little curiosity about school, but that
seems natural, but she never wanted to go. She actually wanted her
schooled friends to ditch more, because often their schedules made it
hard to see them during the week, but they managed.

So yes, I think we would have been fine without a local in-person group,
although here were definitely benefits to being part of one. It's a good
places to start, anyway. And I've definitely looking into Kansas City
groups now that we're here (not an easy trip, just for the record, but we
made it - and we're now enjoying cable internet at home, for the first
time!).

Dar

b0b_5mith

Hi Jackie,

No doubt your husband is at Home Depot buying supplies to put an
addition on your house for the babies 4, 5 and 6! You certainly have
your hands full, and I'm glad you are enjoying it as much as it
sounds like you are.

It's so helpful to hear from other women and especially their
feelings, both good and bad about homeschooling. I'm sure my wife
will be encouraged to know that she doesn't have to trek to Timbuktu
just to interact with other homeschoolers... that our regular old
friends with kids will suffice.

Like you and your husband, we've always been the type of parents to
do everything with our children from the every day trips to stores,
the post office, etc. right on up to trips where other parents we
know would opt to go alone. In fact, I won a trip for two to Aruba
for 8 days this December from a promotion through my business, and
we've advised the travel company that we'll be purchasing two extra
tickets so that our children can come too! We can't wait, and I've
already been looking into all of the wonderful unschooling activities
that we can take in: a semi-submersible submarine ride; cave
exploration; hiking in the desert; several different languages to
hear (Spanish, Dutch and Papiamento as well as some French and
Portuguese); butterfly farms; snorkling; etc...

I'll take your advice and reiterate to my wife that I fully intend to
help in every way possible. I wouldn't dream of missing out on the
fun! I'll also let her know that I'll make sure that she'll get
some "me time" for herself.

Thanks so much for your reply. I really enjoyed it.

Bob

b0b_5mith

> Within my parkgroup we exchange hand-me-downs, trade off playdates
and babysitting, listen to and support each other, and really enjoy
each other's company. I've moved, but still drive 65 miles each way
most weeks to see my park friends. (OK, sometimes twice a week.)
>

Betsy,

65 miles each way?! Wow! That's great that you've maintained those
friendships despite the distance. It's not that my wife doesn't want
to socialize with other homeschoolers. I just think that she doesn't
want that to be one more pressure that she feels in the beginning. I'm
sure that if the opportunity presents itself she'll be glad to take
advantage of it.

Thanks for your input.

Bob

b0b_5mith

--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
>
> On Apr 12, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
>
> >
> > (OK, it takes time to get this close. Doesn't happen the first
week
> > or month.)
>
> It takes time and it takes effort. A core group has to make it a
> priority to show up to park days consistently - the kids have to be
> confident that they will have friends there. If that consistency
> doesn't happen, the park days won't take off and become the
wonderful
> resources that they can be. New people who come one week and then
miss
> a few and then come back once and then miss a few more weeks are
making
> it hard on themselves - sometimes people do this and then complain
that
> their kids weren't welcomed into the group.

Hi Pam,

I know what you mean. I did a martial arts class for awhile. In the
beginning I struggled with going sometimes as I felt somewhat like
the outsider coming into an established group. But each week I felt
less like an outsider, and more like a member. I'm sure a few skipped
classes here and there in the beginning may have lead to my stopping
long before I did. In case you are interested I now have a black belt
in Karayzee. :)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts,

Bob

b0b_5mith

Hi Dar,

Thanks for the reply. Isn't cable internet great?! I'm glad to know
that it can be done without a local homeschool support group. There
are plenty in NJ, but most of them are north of quite a bit. Neither
of us are adverse to the idea, but just didn't want to feel the added
pressure right now. It's great to have these online communities. It
just opens the whole world up just a little bit more.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Bob

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], "b0b_5mith" <rws@d...>
wrote:
> Could you have survived with only online support groups, and just
had "play dates" with
> other friends and their kids (home schooled or otherwise.) I mean,
did it matter to the kids
> that they were with other home schoolers or was it just important to
be with other kids. Or
> was that not really that important either?

It just depends on the kids, yours and the others. My 2 and 4.5 yr olds
want to get together with other kids a few times a week. Ds (4.5) will
do his best to make new friends anywhere we go. Other kids won't need
others around as much.

As far as schooled vs. unschooled kids...right now ds has 3 friends who
go to pre-school. Two that go to a full-time public pre-school AND have
6 yr old sisters are bugging me. There's lots of "give me that toy or I
won't be your friend" "that's not fair", fighting with the sisters,
etc. Then ds tries out that behavior on us and dd. So far, I've been
thinking that the good outweighs the bad, but the tide is turning. A
local unschooling group is just getting started, so hopefully that will
work out in more get togethers, plus ds is now playing soccer and t-
ball, which is definitely 90 % a social event! And with warm weather,
we can just go to a local playground and run into other people.

--aj

Julie W

> Could you have survived with only online support groups, and just had
> "play dates" with
> other friends and their kids (home schooled or otherwise.) I mean, did
> it matter to the kids
> that they were with other home schoolers or was it just important to
> be with other kids. Or
> was that not really that important either?

At the beginning it would not have mattered. My son's (13) preference
when he was young was to not go anywhere. He could and still does play
alone for hours on end. I don't think it would have mattered who ways
over to play with---except that as they get older some "schooled"
children will begin to want your unschooled child to "prove" they can to
addition, or can multiply, or read---that stuff can get yucky. Things
were different for me. I needed to meet folks. Online was nice, but I
was glad to meet some "real" homeschoolers in our county who we could do
things with. They were very nice folks, but I've found that if you are
an unschooler or even an relaxed homeschooler it really does help to
have a support group with those types of families.

My saving grace though has been the support group begun by Karen
(Tuckervill) and a few others of us who met on AOL. I really think at
times that if it had not been for them I would have put ds in school a
few times. I know I would have been so much more structured and would
have had one very unhappy teenager by now. It is so worth it to hang out
with other homeschoolers/unschoolers who will remind you that its just
fine that your 10 or 11 or 12 yr old is still not reading fluently. More
valuable then that is that they know him well enough to remind you of
all the great things they see in him that you may be missing.
Ya know, forest/tree issues.

I would ditto Karen's comments about needing that alone time and maybe
your wife is feeling ambivalent because she was looking forward to some
breathing room. I know I need a few hours alone each night (hence I stay
up too late) to just be left alone.

Julie W
http://jwoolfolk.typepad.com/theothermother/

Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley

> Could you have survived with only online support groups, and just had "play dates" with
> other friends and their kids (home schooled or otherwise.) I mean, did it matter to the kids
> that they were with other home schoolers or was it just important to be with other kids. Or
> was that not really that important either?**

Obviously this is going to depend on the personalities of your children
and you and your wife. For my kids and me, we only go to park days
about once every three months or so. The stress of ALL those other kids
and the chaos is too much for us. We always take my husband, too, so
that each child (we have two) has a parent with them to help them deal
with the other children and general playgroup/playground navigation.

We *LOVE* our stay at home days. We try to always have at least one
weekend day and three weekdays at home. It doesn't always work, but we
are introverts so we are all feeling stressed out when we don't get
those at home days. Our at home days include NO other children for
playdates, either.

That said, I couldn't live without my internet groups (not all are
"support" groups).

-Lisa in AZ

nellebelle

>>>>>>>>Could you have survived with only online support groups, and just had "play dates" with
other friends and their kids (home schooled or otherwise.) I mean, did it matter to the kids
that they were with other home schoolers or was it just important to be with other kids. Or
was that not really that important either?>>>>>>>>>>

I started to answer this the other day, but several others have said pretty much what I was going to say - "It depends...".

If you are leaning towards unschooling and the only HS support is full of rigid school at home type, that is probably worse than no support at all. There are 2 (were 3) homeschooling families in my neighborhood. We don't spend any time with them because they differ too much from us in religious and educational beliefs. Besides, they don't finish their "homeschooling day" until the middle of the afternoon, shortly before the school kids arrive home.

One of the benefits of having unschooling (or relaxed homeschooling) friends is that they are likely to be available during "school days" for spending time together. Schooled friends and home"schooled" friends are not available for big chunks of time because of their school (time spent in school and time spent doing homework).

When dd was kindergarten age, some of her neighborhood friends were a year younger and even the kindergarten ones were "only" gone for a few hours. Plus, I was still involved in La Leche League which offered regular parenting support along with play groups. It happened that several of the LLL leaders were homeschooling and they invited me to come to a meeting of a new homeschool support group when my oldest was 4. Several of the families had young children (babies to age 8 or so) and several of us hit it off and wanted to do stuff together. So I literally had a homeschool group even before I was officially homeschooling. It was a diverse group whose members ran the gamut from secular school at home to atheist or non-Christian religion eclectic, relaxed, and unschoolers. So my children have had homeschooling friends since the beginning, which helps to balance the interactions they have with their neighborhood schooled friends. One of the original families is still amongst our best friends, and there are others who we continue to have casual contact with.

I don't know if it's relevant that we moved here when my oldest was 3 1/2. I had attended mom/infant classes in my old town and stayed with the program until we moved during the month of March. At that time, I was doing a co-op preschool with dd one day a week. It was a really great program. Parents were allowed to stay at the preschool (parents were also required to volunteer, so there were always at least 5 or 6 adults present) and the kids had free range except for beginning and ending circle time and snack time. The teacher encouraged parents to follow the child's lead in choice of activities each week, even if the child spent most of their time at only one or two activities. As a parent, the program offered me child development theories and ideas for fun learning activities. When we moved, I decided not to look for another preschool because by then I had a second child and did not want to put one child in child care in order to be at a co-op preschool with the other. The co-op had been a great experience so I did not even consider looking for a "drop-off" preschool program. Also, dd at the time was generally reluctant to stay anywhere without me. So, when she was ages 3-4, I first started thinking about the idea that while preschool can be a fun thing for some kids/parents, it is not an essential thing for children. Now I think it can be damaging for some children too, but I was in a different space back then. I was capable of providing the same sorts of activities for my child on my own and our new community had/has lots to offer for families with young children. It was easy to find things to do and other young families to do them with.



>>>>>>>>>I mean, did it matter to the kids that they were with other home schoolers or was it just important to be with other kids.>>>>>>>>>

Since we've always known other homeschoolers IRL, and live in a stable neighborhood with many good friends (who now go to school), I can't know what it would have been like otherwise. My kids have always had lots of other children around, though certainly not all day everyday. But I think in some ways it matters more to at least know of other unschoolers as the child reaches middle/high school years. It's nice to know real young people who are learning, thriving, and doing interesting things outside of and without school and teaching. My oldest would be in 6th grade this year - first year of middle school here. There is an awful lot of excitement generated by the kids who are off on this adventure of school lockers and school dances and buying your lunch ala carte in the school cafeteria and etcetera. Most of them don't have the choice to stay home, so they make the best of it and find ways to have what fun they can. I think it has been nice for my dd to have homeschooling friends to do things with and not feel so alone while the other kids are "enjoying" middle school. Of course Lisa has also been able to find out from her schooled friends that it is not all fun. Just about every one of them has at least once said they wished they could homeschool.

One other thought, as my children (and I) are growing and learning, I'm finding that friends are based far more on common interests and personality compatibility than on educational methods.

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

b0b_5mith

--- In [email protected], "mamaaj2000"
<mamaaj2000@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "b0b_5mith"
<rws@d...>
> wrote:
> > Could you have survived with only online support groups, and
just
> had "play dates" with
> > other friends and their kids (home schooled or otherwise.) I
mean,
> did it matter to the kids
> > that they were with other home schoolers or was it just
important to
> be with other kids. Or
> > was that not really that important either?
>
> It just depends on the kids, yours and the others. My 2 and 4.5 yr
olds
> want to get together with other kids a few times a week. Ds (4.5)
will
> do his best to make new friends anywhere we go. Other kids won't
need
> others around as much.


We have several families that we are friends with who also have
children. In fact my cousin, who is only 6 (and I'm 36) lives right
down the street and my daughter and she get together once or twice a
week. There are children across the street, and one right next door.
I just wondered if it was important for some reason to be with other
hs kids. I'm glad to see that the regular old garden variety kid
will suffice. :)

Thanks,

Bob

b0b_5mith

--- In [email protected], Julie W
<jjjwoolfolk@s...> wrote:
> > Could you have survived with only online support groups, and
just had
> > "play dates" with
> > other friends and their kids (home schooled or otherwise.) I
mean, did
> > it matter to the kids
> > that they were with other home schoolers or was it just
important to
> > be with other kids. Or
> > was that not really that important either?
>
> I needed to meet folks. Online was nice, but I
> was glad to meet some "real" homeschoolers in our county who we
could do
> things with. They were very nice folks, but I've found that if you
are
> an unschooler or even an relaxed homeschooler it really does help
to
> have a support group with those types of families.


Hi Julie,

Thanks for your input. I try to give mommy some alone time each
night, although usually she prefers me to be there, massaging her
feet. So far I'm very happy with the support I've received online.
But as time goes on and we begin this venture, we'll have to seek
out others nearby. It would be nice to bounce ideas off of others
who actually know your children and see them developing.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts,

Bob

b0b_5mith

--- In [email protected], "Lisa M. Cottrell
Bentley" <cottrellbentley@c...> wrote:
> > Could you have survived with only online support groups, and
just had "play dates" with
> > other friends and their kids (home schooled or otherwise.) I
mean, did it matter to the kids
> > that they were with other home schoolers or was it just
important to be with other kids. Or
> > was that not really that important either?**
>
> Obviously this is going to depend on the personalities of your
children
> and you and your wife. For my kids and me, we only go to park
days
> about once every three months or so. The stress of ALL those
other kids
> and the chaos is too much for us. We always take my husband, too,
so
> that each child (we have two) has a parent with them to help them
deal
> with the other children and general playgroup/playground
navigation.
>
> We *LOVE* our stay at home days. We try to always have at least
one
> weekend day and three weekdays at home. It doesn't always work,
but we
> are introverts so we are all feeling stressed out when we don't
get
> those at home days. Our at home days include NO other children
for
> playdates, either.


Hi Lisa,

It's interesting to read so many different perspectives. Its helpful
to realize that there really is the freedom to make decisions based
solely on what works for our family. I'm disappointed to admit, that
I think we fell into the whole mindset of keeping up with the Jones'
so to speak with our daughter. We HAD to sign her up for soccer, and
dance, and preschool, etc. Now that I look back I realize we were
wrong. Not that soccer, dance, and preschool are wrong, but it was
wrong to impose any time frame or preconceived notion of what she
ought to be doing.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Bob

b0b_5mith

--- In [email protected], "nellebelle"
<nellebelle@c...> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>Could you have survived with only online support groups,
and just had "play dates" with
> other friends and their kids (home schooled or otherwise.) I mean,
did it matter to the kids
> that they were with other home schoolers or was it just important
to be with other kids. Or
> was that not really that important either?>>>>>>>>>>
>
> I started to answer this the other day, but several others have
said pretty much what I was going to say - "It depends...".
>


Thanks again Mary Ellen for taking the time to answer my question.
My wife told me today when I went home for lunch that we are
definitely going to HS. She thinks she'd like at least some
structure, and while that's not my preference, I need to let her
decide what will work for her and my daughter. I read quite a bit
about folks starting with a more structured approach and later
gradually just finding their way to more of an unschooling approach.

My wife has been so willing to hear me out on this over the past few
weeks, she's reading books about it, including Teach Your Own, and I
don't want to seem like I'm still not satisfied by pushing too hard
for unschooling. We'll just take it a day at a time and see where
this leads us.

I'm very thankful for the support that you and the others in this
and several other forums have offered. The Internet truly is a
remarkable tool.

Regards,

Bob

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/13/2005 4:15:52 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
rws@... writes:

She thinks she'd like at least some
structure, and while that's not my preference, I need to let her
decide what will work for her and my daughter.


========

She can't really decide what will work for your daughter.

It would be good to really look at how learning works, rather than just how
schooling works. In very many ways, schooling DOESN'T work, and the same
damage school does can be done at home.

-=-I read quite a bit
about folks starting with a more structured approach and later
gradually just finding their way to more of an unschooling approach.
=-

Right.
So why start in a place that so many people reject?
They reject it for a reason.

If you can possibly get to the Live and Learn Conference (it's linked here:
_http://sandradodd.com/unschooling_ (http://sandradodd.com/unschooling) )
that would help immensely. You could see other families in action, and meet
lots of kids of all ages who are unschooled. My own should be there, who
are 13, 16 and 18 (will be 19 by then).

I can see not pushing, but not all things are equal and not all methods are
benign. Setting up a structure and then trying to undo it will have results
and effects that can't be undone.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: b0b_5mith <rws@...>

Thanks for your input. I try to give mommy some alone time each
night, although usually she prefers me to be there, massaging her
feet. So far I'm very happy with the support I've received online.
But as time goes on and we begin this venture, we'll have to seek
out others nearby. It would be nice to bounce ideas off of others
who actually know your children and see them developing.

-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-

I've missed a few posts---a little preoccupied with conference stuff
(and the sun is shining, it's 75 degrees, and the soil is begging me to
start to dig, dig, dig! <G>).

But I'm assuming someone has pointed out that the Live and Learn
Unschooling Conference will be in the very centrally located city of St
Louis, MO (actually Fairview Heights, IL) October 6-9, 2005. It's well
worth the time and money to see for yourself how this unschooling
philosophy works in real families. Hundreds of families, all
unschooling, all in one place. Priceless.

It could answer many questions, both literally (by asking questions and
having them answered) as well as figuratively (just watching and
interacting with other attendees). Website is below. I hope y'all will
consider attending.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org

arcarpenter2003

--- In [email protected], "b0b_5mith" <rws@d...>
wrote:

> But as time goes on and we begin this venture, we'll have to seek
> out others nearby. It would be nice to bounce ideas off of others
> who actually know your children and see them developing.


Hi Bob,

So much of this depends on your daughter's nature, too. We know one
relaxed homeschooling family in the area (we are radical unschoolers)
and I know of unschoolers in my state through online connections, but
we honestly *don't* do any regularly scheduled playdates, park days,
field trips, etc. We get together with neighborhood kids and see
friends sometimes (my son and I share some adult friends, and he has a
few "small people" friends, too, almost all schooled). But it's
really not that often. We can easily go for a few days at a time
without going out or seeing people.

Why does this work for us? Why am I not stark raving mad from
isolation? Why is my son not bored to tears everyday?

It helps that we're somewhat introverted people, and we really enjoy
the company of each other and ourselves.

But I also think that life is actually that interesting. Days create
their own rhythms.

Lately our days have consisted of a few different parts: time when
we're very interactive with each other and engaged in an intensive
activity (usually pretend Pokemon battles, where we write down all our
attacks and try to see how they play out against each other); time
when we're talking casually and our play is flowing from one thing to
another -- playing ball, birdwatching, swinging, dissecting leaves
with a toy hammer <g>; and time in which we're near each other,
checking in verbally every few minutes, but basically doing our own
thing (my son is watching TV and telling me which parts he loves while
I type this).

All this variety and more, even on a day when we're "just" staying
home. This rhythm itself will ebb and flow and morph into something
different, and then morph back again, over the months.

We can sense when we need a change of scenery or company, and we are
open to outside opportunities that match our interests. But we
respond to that need when it arises, instead of wearing ourselves out
planning and running because we're worried about "achieving learning
objectives."

If your family has more extraverted needs, then putting time into
"field trips" and relationships with other homeschoolers may be a
priority. But before I started *actually* unschooling, I had pretty
unrealistic expectations of what I would "need" to do. That's why I
bring it up.

What I would really focus on is knowing your daughter and letting her
lead whenever possible. That will teach you much of what you need to
know.


Peace,
Amy

b0b_5mith

> I can see not pushing, but not all things are equal and not all
methods are
> benign. Setting up a structure and then trying to undo it will
have results
> and effects that can't be undone.
>
> Sandra


I understand, but how can I use coercion with my wife to bring about a
non coercive learning atmosphere for my children? It feels like I'm
caught between a rock and a hard place. I've "strewn her path" with
John Holt's "Teach Your Own" and your web site of course, and she's
looking into things in her way and in her time. I'm not sure what else
I can do. And when it comes down to the choice of some structure in my
home vs. sending her to public school, it's a no brainer.

Bob

b0b_5mith

Wow! You all have given me so much to think about, don't be
surprised if you don't hear from me for awhile as I've got some
thinking to do. A month ago, maybe not even that long ago, I began
researching homeschooling. The precipitating cause for this was that
I'd just learned that my 15 year old cousin who lives a few blocks
away is addicted to heroin and left school for a rehab clinic. I
read with great satisfaction of the various benefits to
homeschooling. I also was amazed at the myriad choices of styles and
philosophies.

Then I became enamored with unschooling. Learning from living just
seemed to make sense and jived with my experience. So I began to
read more about unschooling. I read about what doesn't work in "Why
Children Fail," and am about to start "Teach Your Own." So then I
opened my big mouth and came in here and several other places
seeking some encouragement that I might share with my wife. Big
mistake. Now I'm the one feeling overwhelmed as I read about Taking
Children Seriously, Non-Violent Communication, Principles vs. Rules,
not using diapers?!?!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with you folks. Truth be told,
I'd be afraid to. :) It's just such a culture shock to consider my
children as autonomous. But I'm definitely intrigued and plan to do
even more reading. Long ago my wife and I had a discussion where we
talked about what we wanted for our children as adults, and we
agreed that above all else we wanted them to be happy, truly happy.
Now perhaps some will argue that I'm being coercive with even the
notion of wanting something for my kids, but I'm sorry, it's true. I
want them to be happy, content adults.

So I may be all replyed out for awhile, as you folks have really
given me so much to think about. For that I'm thankful. I'm not
against the thought of a paradigm shift. If I can handle announcing
my atheism to my family after 10 years of Christian school, and four
years of Christian college, I can handle telling them we're trying
non coercive parenting. I just want to look into this some more and
continue to lurk and read your responses to others with questions
similar to my own.

I've already checked my local library to see if they have "Joyfully
Living with Children" (they do not) and/or "Unconditional Parenting"
(they do & I've requested it). So it's back to the drawing board for
me. Of course if any of you can recommend any other worthwhile
books, I'd certainly appreciate it.

Thanks again to all of you who have taken the time to share your
thoughts and what you've found works for you.

The adventure continues,

Bob

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: b0b_5mith <rws@...>

Long ago my wife and I had a discussion where we
talked about what we wanted for our children as adults, and we
agreed that above all else we wanted them to be happy, truly happy.
Now perhaps some will argue that I'm being coercive with even the
notion of wanting something for my kids, but I'm sorry, it's true. I
want them to be happy, content adults.<<<<<<<<



"Shortest route to a happy adulthood is a happy childhood"
~Sandra Dodd



>>>>>>> So it's back to the drawing board for
me. Of course if any of you can recommend any other worthwhile
books, I'd certainly appreciate it.<<<<

Valerie Fitzenreiter's _The Unprocessed Child_

Rue Kream has a new book coming out this summer. It is *just* what
you're looking for. I hope it will be available at the conference in
October.

Good Luck!

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: b0b_5mith <rws@...>

I understand, but how can I use coercion with my wife to bring about a
non coercive learning atmosphere for my children? It feels like I'm
caught between a rock and a hard place. I've "strewn her path" with
John Holt's "Teach Your Own" and your web site of course, and she's
looking into things in her way and in her time. I'm not sure what else
I can do. And when it comes down to the choice of some structure in my
home vs. sending her to public school, it's a no brainer.
-=-=-=-=-=-

You don't have to coerce. Just share.

Ask about *her* school experiences. How well did *she* learn that
foreign language? What did she actually learn that she wasn't truly
interested in? What did she learn *best*?

OH!

Frank Smith's _The Book of Learning and Forgetting_ Frank didn't know
about unschooling (until he went to a conference), but he was WRITING
about UNSCHOOLING! Short, easy book---one-nighter----and SOOO
enlightening!

Oh---and speaking of conferences, I bet she'd love a vacation---how
'bout a trip to the beautiful Midwest this fall? No coercion, just a
really delightful trip to a lovely city with LOTS of family-friendly
things to do----as well as an unschooling conference!

~Kelly, shameless promoter

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/14/2005 6:07:31 PM Central Standard Time,
rws@... writes:

I understand, but how can I use coercion with my wife to bring about a
non coercive learning atmosphere for my children?


~~~
Bob, please don't confuse non-coercive parenting with unschooling. They are
two different bodies of thought, and although they do intersect in some
people's lives, you can be one without the other, and vice versa. :)

What I think I would do if I were you is slow down a little and let the
ideas percolate. Try them out on other people and see if you can defend them.
Don't expect your wife to "get it". It's an odd feeling, because usually it's
the mother who is at home and wanting to unschool...and my standard advice
is for her to ask hubby to "trust her" for a year or so. In your situation,
you're asking your wife to make more of a commitment than just "trusting you".
She's the one with the child the most.

Nothing has to be decided right now, though. You've been doing this for
about a month, now. Don't be an overzealous convert. :)

Karen

www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/14/2005 8:43:04 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:

I understand, but how can I use coercion with my wife to bring about a
non coercive learning atmosphere for my children?


~~~
Bob, please don't confuse non-coercive parenting with unschooling.


===================

He's talking about non-coercive learning, not NCP, I think.

You can tell your wife that there is no such thing as coercive learning, at
least not of the subject matter at hand. Coercion in education teaches a
LOT, but not anything very good.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]