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In a message dated 3/22/05 8:49:23 AM, fairy_of_moods@... writes:

<< It seems to me that the principle of giving children control of food is
not about expecting them to eventually start eating on their own the way you
would choose for them. Right? Rather, it is about trusting them and accepting
their choices whatever they are.
>>

I guess I need to add more to that foods page if this is the impression it
has left.

-=-Surely I shouldn't just ignore this background and smile cheerfully when
my dd reaches for cookie number six? Yet I don't want to nag her or make her
feel guilty. And what about shopping? How do I decide what to buy? And then
there is supper. If the kids don't want to eat what I have planned do I cook
them something else? Something different for each child? That is a lot of
cooking.-=-

I really thought issues like this were covered by some of the links at
http://sandradodd.com/food

Yes, there's this, labelled: gently and gradually "just say yes"

http://sandradodd.com/eating/control

Don't give your children "control over food."
Don't give yourself control over food either.
Stop thinking of it as control, and try to think of it as availability,
choices, flexibility.

If you're counting the number of cookies she ate, that's still counting. But
why are there so many cookies set out?

It's really awkward when people are changing from one way to another, I know.
But the kinds of questions you've asked seem to be swinging from one
extreme to another instead of moving gradually. Did you once force them to clean
plates or to taste all foods? Then move from "Do it" to "it's okay not to
finish" or "it's okay if you don't want to taste it."

-=- And what about shopping? How do I decide what to buy? -=-

Buy things you know people in your family like and will eat, or that you
think they might like. Buy a variety. Buy things you know are good and that you
can afford. What's on sale that you haven't had lately? I found avocados
yesterday five for $1 and made a bunch of guacamole and that goes well with
turkeyburgers, so got ground turkey. One thing can lead to another.

-=-And then there is supper. If the kids don't want to eat what I have
planned . . . -=-

Don't plan to cook what they won't eat.
Make things lots of people like.

Holly doesn't much like meat, so when I make lasagna I make one with meat and
one without. Kirby didn't like green chile for a long time, so if I was
making something with chile I'd do it on a night he was going to be elsewhere, or
I'd make him a side-thing without chile.

-=-do I cook them something else? Something different for each child? That
is a lot of cooking.-=-

There are lots of things to eat that don't need to be cooked. Peanut butter
sandwich. Veggies and ranch dressing. Cheese and crackers and fruit. Nuts
and cream cheese. A chocolate/banana smoothie.

-=-urely I shouldn't just ignore this background and smile cheerfully when my
dd reaches for cookie number six? -=-

Maybe develop a new background to go with new priorities.
People don't live from a molecular level up.
And our moods affect our molecular levels (and our biochemical/electrical
realities).
Being unhappy while eating perfect health food isn't any good.

If health food is more important to you than your child's happiness, that is
your priority and you should act on it.

FIRST decide your priorities and then act. It's living by principles, and
it's really easy once it gets going.

Sandra

bunsofaluminum

The other day, I made the mistake of boiling some sweet potatoes and
russets in the morning, for a potato salad recipe I wanted to try, to
serve for dinner that night. Then I went to run errands or something.

When I got back a few hours later, I was wiped out and sat relaxing
for a few minutes. My girl came in chewing on something.

Sweet potato.

hm. All but two slivers of russet were gone. I was not happy, but I
also remembered who it was that had not made her intentions for the
cooked food clear, and who it was that hadn't left other food
available for grabbing and munching.

Yes, I hollered. But very soon apologized, and the kids and I peeled
some more potatoes, and the one sweet potato left in the pantry,
boiled em, and put that potato salad together anyway.

moral of this story? An open kitchen must have plentious foods, or
kids will eat what is there, whether moms want it for a later recipe,
or not.

LOL

blessings, HeidiC

Caprice Erickson

SandraDodd@... wrote:

In a message dated 3/22/05 8:49:23 AM, fairy_of_moods@... writes:

<< It seems to me that the principle of giving children control of food is
not about expecting them to eventually start eating on their own the way you
would choose for them. Right? Rather, it is about trusting them and accepting
their choices whatever they are.
>>

<I guess I need to add more to that foods page if this is the impression it
has left.>

I don't understand what you meant by this comment, please clarify.

-=-Surely I shouldn't just ignore this background and smile cheerfully when
my dd reaches for cookie number six? Yet I don't want to nag her or make her
feel guilty. And what about shopping? How do I decide what to buy? And then
there is supper. If the kids don't want to eat what I have planned do I cook
them something else? Something different for each child? That is a lot of
cooking.-=-

<I really thought issues like this were covered by some of the links at
http://sandradodd.com/food

Yes, there's this, labelled: gently and gradually "just say yes"

http://sandradodd.com/eating/control>

I really did read all of those links. But I still felt the need to discuss.

<Don't give your children "control over food."
Don't give yourself control over food either.
Stop thinking of it as control, and try to think of it as availability,
choices, flexibility.>

This makes sense. I know that the way you think about something can have a big influence on your actions.

<If you're counting the number of cookies she ate, that's still counting.>

In other words stop focusing on what/how much she is eating right?

<But why are there so many cookies set out?>

One example might be a family get together with platter of various foods setting around. But the reason I wrote the counting/cookie question is because I botched up my attempt to gradually let loose limits. Naturally my dd went a little extreme in her new freedom by eating very large amounts (more than six) of foods that had previously been restricted. Even though I understand such a reaction, at the time I was struggling with the question of either saying nothing or trying to give information without lecturing. At the time it seemed like a very urgent question to figure out. But now that I have thought about it more I realize that it will probably come up a lot less once my family adjusts to the new situation. I really wish I had thought about it more and done a better job of being gradual. But it happened, all I can do now is deal with the situation that exists.

<snipped>
I'm afraid my original post on this subject was a bit panicky. Time and reading the posted replies has helped me think about it more calmly and analytically.

I'm amazed at how much my thought processes were in a rut concerning the whole food area. The specific examples some of you shared got my creative juices flowing again. It is much more clear to me now, that not restricting food is part of bigger principle that is at the heart of unschooling.

<Maybe develop a new background to go with new priorities.
People don't live from a molecular level up.
And our moods affect our molecular levels (and our biochemical/electrical
realities).>

I understand what you are saying here. But, I want to point out that what is going on at a molecular level can have a big impact on mood.

<Being unhappy while eating perfect health food isn't any good.>
True. As with many things, balance is important.

<If health food is more important to you than your child's happiness, that is
your priority and you should act on it.

FIRST decide your priorities and then act. It's living by principles, and
it's really easy once it gets going.>

Health food is not more important to me than my children's happiness. Health food is one way to promote a healthy body and the health of my children is very important to me. So is their happiness. You seem to be saying that the two priorities are mutually exclusive. I would like to find a way to promote their health without sacrificing their happiness and vice versa.

Caprice





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

>>>>>>Health food is one way to promote a healthy body and the health of my children is very important to me.>>>>>>>>>

The problem with this idea is that the science of nutrition is NOT an exact science with exact answers. When we read about what people *should* eat - numbers of servings of this vs. that, number of calories, percent of calories from fat, butter vs. margarine, whole wheat flour vs. refined, etc. - it is ALL based on estimates and theories and the "average" person. It is impossible to state with certainty exactly what and how much any individual *should* be eating at any given point in time.

Humans eat for more than life support. It can be pleasure, entertainment, socializing, nutrition-giving and more.

As with deschooling, children (and parents) need a period of adjustment when switching from parent-controlled eating to child-controlled eating. As with deschooling, many (most?) adults have food issues of their own to deal with. It can take months, if not years, for a person to recover from the results of someone else controlling their eating.

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 24, 2005, at 1:14 PM, Caprice Erickson wrote:

> Health food is not more important to me than my children's happiness.
> Health food is one way to promote a healthy body and the health of my
> children is very important to me. So is their happiness. You seem to
> be saying that the two priorities are mutually exclusive. I would like
> to find a way to promote their health without sacrificing their
> happiness and vice versa.

When we're trying to achieve two goals there will be times when a
decision will lead towards one but away from another.

When conventional parents are faced with deciding between happiness and
another goal more often than not the goal of children's happiness
becomes secondary.

If you've ever made your child cry because of something else that you
wanted, then your child's happiness was secondary.

One time I was upset about a spill or something and my daughter said
"It seems like you care more about the rug than you do me." I, of
course, said "No, of course not." And yet she was right. For that
moment the fact that she was upset was less important than the need to
get the spill mopped up.

And with conventional parenting that happens a *lot*. It's pretty much
taken for granted that what kids want is secondary to what parents are
trying to accomplish. Kids are just another task, and not particularly
high priority tasks, to get done in the day.

It doesn't feel that way when you're in the middle of conventional
parenting! It feels like you're spending your life doing things for the
kids like good meals, clean clothes, neat house and so on. But once
outside it, conventional parenting looks very very selfish from the
point of view of the kids. It feels to them like all the things we're
running around doing are more important than they are because the
things they ask of us get put low on our list and sometimes fall off
the list when we run out of time after getting all the things we "need"
to get done.

We can provide healthy food and make them happy. But sometimes we'll
come up against a conflict between the two -- like counting/ignoring
the cookies they're eating -- and a message about good eating is going
to seem more important than the delight a child is getting from the
cookies.

There's plenty of time throughout the day to model what we believe to
be healthy eating that we don't need to steal a moment of their
happiness to give them "an important service announcement."

Joyce