jenneferh2000

I've been enjoying the thread on children learning to play the piano
and am finding it very informative. I bought our two small boys a toy
Grand Piano manufactured by First Act, and it came with stickers for
the keys. I haven't yet put them on and wonder if I should? I guess
it would be educational for all of us (as neither parent plays), but
part of me wanted to allow the kiddos to experiment and fiddle around
on their own w/o the keys being labeled. Below I've pasted a quote by
John Holt on the topic of children learning to play music. Thought
some might be interested.

Jennefer in Oregon


John Holt, How Children Learn (1983)

"I have since come to feel very strongly, partly from my experience in
music and my own work on the cello (about which I wrote in Never Too
Late), partly from the little I know of music history, that
improvisation lies at the very heart of all music making and should be
a central part of every kind of music instruction. Much of my own
time on the cello I spend improvising in different ways, and if I were
teaching cello or any kind of instrument to children or adults, I
would urge them to spend some of their time doing the same: either
trying to play by ear tunes they know, or thinking up tunes in their
mind and trying to play them, or simply moving their hands around the
fingerboards or keyboards, with no conscious plan, just hearing
whatever notes come out.

In other words, there can be varying amounts of conscious control in
improvising. At one extreme, we try to make our muscles play the
tunes, other people's or our own, that we hear in our minds. At the
other, we let our hands move on their own, and listen to and think
about what they bring to us. It is when our muscles, hands, and
fingers can improvise with the least conscious control that we are
most truly improvising and have the most natural and effortless
control of our instruments.

Little children do this when they are singing their charming endless
made-up songs. They are not first hearing a tune in their minds and
then trying to sing it. They are simply singing, and letting whatever
comes out, come out. We ought to encourage them in this, and do more
of it ourselves."

Ruth

Hi Jennifer

It is not a piano but my youngest learnt to play a glockenspiel without labelling the keys. He is only 6 and enjoyed messing around to get the tunes he wanted out of it. As an experiment I gave him sheet music ( that came with it) with coded notes that corresponded to the coloured keys on the instrument but he ignored them so I took them away. So would say let them get on with it and ses how it goes. If frustration sets in you could ask them if they would like the labels on then.

Ruth

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Robin

--- In [email protected], "jenneferh2000" <jenneferh2000@y...> wrote:
>
> I've been enjoying the thread on children learning to play the piano
> and am finding it very informative. I bought our two small boys a toy
> Grand Piano manufactured by First Act, and it came with stickers for
> the keys. I haven't yet put them on and wonder if I should?


I think it depends on what the kids want. Mackenzie (ds) wanted to know which notes were which and putting stickers on the keys was the easiest/quickest way for him to see that. I only had some colored star stickers and some animal stickers, so some of our keys became "gorilla" and "cheetah". Which is funny, because even when he plays on another piano without the stickers and he is reading music, I can hear him saying under his breath "red, blue, gorilla, gorilla", LOL. So for him it was a help.

My daughter ignores the stickers and plays by ear. She has been taking Suzuki violin for 2 years, and one thing I really like about that program is that they do not push reading music at all. She has really developed the ability to play by ear and can pick out anything she wants on the piano. My son doesn't really have the same ear ability that she has and was getting frustrated trying to pick out songs or even having me play bits so he could learn them from me. For him, the logical-brained guy, the stickers as visual cues worked so much better.

So really, it all boils down to what would work best for your kids.


I guess
> it would be educational for all of us (as neither parent plays), but
> part of me wanted to allow the kiddos to experiment and fiddle around
> on their own w/o the keys being labeled. Below I've pasted a quote by
> John Holt on the topic of children learning to play music.

I love that quote (and indeed his book is really interesting). Our experience here is that the key labels didn't prevent any experimenting or fiddling around. Mackenzie tends to learn a song and then fiddle with the parts of it. He learned Greensleeves for instance, then he will do things like play it with the bass hand playing the first note, then the right hand playing the second note but an octave higher, then going back to the bass hand for the 3rd note. Or he'll play with adding chords, or he has even composed some music and written it down for me to play. And like I said, Asa ignores the stickers completely and plays, fiddles, composes, noodles, etc.


Blue Skies,
-Robin-
Radmama to Asa (5) and Mackenzie (8)

Kids are God; Pay attention. - Viggo Mortensen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

If you have plastic keys on your piano (not ivory-and-wood, which hardly
anyone has anymore anyway) you can put the note names, or numbers, or whatever, on
with crayon, up above where the fingers touch. It's EASY to wipe off with
kleenex. Or you can use washable markers. It will come off easily. Just don't
give littlest kids the idea of crayoning the keyboard or taking a permanent
marker to it. But for older kids, it's easily doable.

Sandra

Aimee

--- jenneferh2000 <jenneferh2000@...> wrote:

<<and it came with stickers for
the keys. I haven't yet put them on and wonder if I
should? >>

Do the stickers have the letters of the notes, or just
colors? I think the color thing is weird, personally,
it seems like an extra thing to learn, an intermediate
step that doesn't add much value in the long run, but
maybe that's just us.

We just bought letter stickers for our keyboard. I
haven't put them on yet, but Alex asked for them. I
think it'll be especially helpful for us because we
practice hit or miss, a few days at at time, for
hours, then two weeks later we pick it up again, etc.
They're removable, supposedly, lol, so we can take
them off if/when we learn how to read the staff.

They have little sharp/flat notations, too, that's
good, I want to start learning those.

It might be enouraging to find music online for
beginners with just the letters like we did, and play
songs right away.

Ode to Joy (with right thumb on middle C, then you're
next finger is on the next key, so your 2nd finger is
on D, 3rd on E, and so forth)

EEFG GFED CCDE EDD(hold)
EEFG GFED CCDE DCC(hold)

I've found that we both say the letters while we play,
mumble mumble. lol

This one might be tough at first for small hands,
because E is the middle finger, but I wanted to give
you an example of what might work with those stickers
if you choose to put em on.

(Warning: This song gets annoying very quickly! lol )

Oh, and the only thing you might do well to remember
is to play with your wrists up, not resting on the
keyboard, (just like typing) it's just a good habit
that'll help if/when you play faster and more
complicated stuff later.

The one thing my music teacher taught me that I found
useful, lol.

Have fun making music!!!

~Aimee









In times of change, learners inherit the Earth, while the learned find
themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists.

- Eric Hoffer

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/21/2005 9:49:28 AM Mountain Standard Time,
aimeel73@... writes:

EEFG GFED CCDE EDD(hold)
EEFG GFED CCDE DCC(hold)

I've found that we both say the letters while we play,
mumble mumble. lol




=============

Because of a trip that started to get boring once, all my kids can sing The
Flintstones in this way (which I figured out phrase by phrase without an
instrument while we're driving through the desert with three restless kids):

5 1, 8--6 5 1
5 4 3 3 4 5 1 2 3---
5 1, 8 6 5 1
5 4 3 3 4 5 1 2 1

We didn't do the next part, just that. But they've since gone up to various
sorts of instruments that had the notes or intervals marked with numbers and
played that song, most noteably on a set of steel drums at the Museum of
International Folk Art in Santa Fe.

And since then when the concepts "octave" or "a fifth" have come up, it's
easy to say "like '1-8' on the Flintstones," or to sing "FIVE one" and say "a
fifth."

I didn't intend for it to be so far-reaching in their lives, but there it
is. Heck of a tool.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

bunsofaluminum

How did you figure it out? Does someone in the family have perfect
pitch?

Huh. I think I know, because I just hummed it out, looking at the
numbers and remembering the tune from childhood. That IS very cool.

HeidiC

> =============
>
> Because of a trip that started to get boring once, all my kids can
sing The
> Flintstones in this way (which I figured out phrase by phrase
without an
> instrument while we're driving through the desert with three
restless kids):
>
> 5 1, 8--6 5 1
> 5 4 3 3 4 5 1 2 3---
> 5 1, 8 6 5 1
> 5 4 3 3 4 5 1 2 1
>
> We didn't do the next part, just that. But they've since gone up
to various
> sorts of instruments that had the notes or intervals marked with
numbers and
> played that song, most noteably on a set of steel drums at the
Museum of
> International Folk Art in Santa Fe.
>
> And since then when the concepts "octave" or "a fifth" have come
up, it's
> easy to say "like '1-8' on the Flintstones," or to sing "FIVE one"
and say "a
> fifth."
>
> I didn't intend for it to be so far-reaching in their lives, but
there it
> is. Heck of a tool.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/21/2005 5:22:15 PM Central Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

How did you figure it out? Does someone in the family have perfect
pitch?



~~~

I'm pretty sure I DON'T have perfect pitch. But I could have figured it
out, as long as I could find a starting point. I can tell how many steps one
note is above another.

What is perfect pitch, anyway?

Karen
www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/21/2005 4:22:29 PM Mountain Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

How did you figure it out? Does someone in the family have perfect
pitch?



--------------

I could figure out what key it was in by humming around in it (or not "what
key," but where the tonic/do was) so I went up to the beginning note by
thirds (again, just humming around to see where the beginning note was). So if
that was the fifth and the next note was 1/do/tonic, I found the other ones
relative to that.

It's just relative pitch. It will work in any key.

Perfect pitch is when someone has something in them to compare a note to.
They can tell a D from an F somehow, by counting up or down from a note they
have indwelling somehow. Some vibration in them is a constant. I don't have
that. My friend Martha does. Some people think perfect pitch means just
being able to tune an instrument, but that's relative pitch.

Sandra


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Pam Sorooshian

On Mar 21, 2005, at 4:04 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Perfect pitch is when someone has something in them to compare a note
> to.
> They can tell a D from an F somehow, by counting up or down from a
> note they
> have indwelling somehow.

Singers can develop it - because with practice they can "feel" inside
what they do to get a certain note when they sing it.

-pam

bunsofaluminum

could be wrong, but I think perfect pitch is the ability to name a
note upon hearing it. "That's an A" Perfect pitch also enables a
person to sight-read singing. IOW, singing acappella, starting with
an A, when A is the note on the page.

even telling how many steps up a note is from the beginning shows a
very good ear. Not everyone can sing a scale accurately without
accompaniment.

blessings, HeidiC


--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm pretty sure I DON'T have perfect pitch. But I could have
figured it
> out, as long as I could find a starting point. I can tell how
many steps one
> note is above another.
>
> What is perfect pitch, anyway?
>
> Karen
> www.badchair.net
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

bunsofaluminum

Relative pitch! I love the idea. I'll be asking my piano teacher
about it, because it looks like a good way to transpose a song. Which
is where I kinda want to go with the music at this point.

Blessings, HeidiC


> I could figure out what key it was in by humming around in it (or
not "what
> key," but where the tonic/do was) so I went up to the beginning
note by
> thirds (again, just humming around to see where the beginning note
was). So if
> that was the fifth and the next note was 1/do/tonic, I found the
other ones
> relative to that.

> It's just relative pitch. It will work in any key.


> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], "bunsofaluminum"
<bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
Not everyone can sing a scale accurately without
> accompaniment.

But does being tone deaf mean NEVER being able to hit the right
notes, or just the ability to completely miss some of the time while
sometimes getting it right??

That's the question much more relevant to MY singing abilities. :-)

--aj

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/22/05 9:22:59 AM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<<

Relative pitch! I love the idea. I'll be asking my piano teacher

about it, because it looks like a good way to transpose a song. Which

is where I kinda want to go with the music at this point. >>

Transposing is transposing.

When you're singing in the shower and you just start on whatever note comes
to you, and you're in tune for that key (whatever it might be) that's about
relative pitch. It's starting with one note and knowing where to go next to
sing the song you have in mind.

If I'm playing an instrument and start on a note, I might find that's not an
easy key for the song and I'll move to another key. That's not relative
pitch. That's operating within the bounds of that instrument.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/22/05 9:23:02 AM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< could be wrong, but I think perfect pitch is the ability to name a

note upon hearing it. "That's an A" >>

Yeah, or to sing an A without needing an instrument to verify the tone.



<<Perfect pitch also enables a

person to sight-read singing. >>

Relative pitch does too. Knowing intervals is what makes sight reading work.
I can sight read music, but I just get a starting pitch when it matters, or
I don't when it doesn't matter.

When we do our madrigal and parts-music singing, we play the starting pitches
on a recorder or piano. But in the absence of an objective source, we can
start in a key we know isn't too high for the highest voice nor to low for the
lowest, and then find the other notes in the chord from that.

There's another kind of music I sing sometimes called Sacred Harp (shape
note, or fa-so-la are other names for that general style of music) and it's all
based on relative pitch. Someone "sets the pitch" by singing the tonic note and
others find their starting pitches from that. It's never "in a key," it's
pitched each time by the person who's leading the singing. There's only a
fairly small window of what will work and if it ends up being too high or too
low, it can be started again.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/22/05 9:32:19 AM, mamaaj2000@... writes:

<< But does being tone deaf mean NEVER being able to hit the right

notes, or just the ability to completely miss some of the time while

sometimes getting it right?? >>

If you can't tell when you have gotten it or haven't, that can be overcome
with practice and tricks.

If you can't EVER hit one, not even once, not even with friendly others
signalling "a little higher" or "lower," that's tone deaf. Can't hear it, can't
match it.

Misses sometimes might be tone-hard-of-hearing. <g>

Sandra

bunsofaluminum

Yeah, tone deafness would be never hitting the notes. "Can't carry a
tune in a bucket" describes such an individual. LOL My husband, and
my best friend both have this characteristic.

Sometimes getting it right means that, with practice, you'd be
getting it right more and more. That's my daughter. With strong
accompaniment, you'd be able to sing right on, most of the time.

Singing a scale accurately without accompaniment means you have a
good ear, but not perfect pitch. That's me, my oldest son, and my
mom.

someone with a good ear could do this game that Sandra describes, of
finding the relative pitch of a song.

blessings, HeidiC


--- In [email protected], "mamaaj2000"
<mamaaj2000@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "bunsofaluminum"
> <bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
> Not everyone can sing a scale accurately without
> > accompaniment.
>
> But does being tone deaf mean NEVER being able to hit the right
> notes, or just the ability to completely miss some of the time
while
> sometimes getting it right??
>
> That's the question much more relevant to MY singing abilities. :-)
>
> --aj

bunsofaluminum

Okay, but if I took your "numbers" that you figured out for
Flinstones theme, and played starting at C, it would be in the key of
C. I could then take the same numbers and start with D or G, and,
playing the same "numbers" the song would then be in a different key.
Right? Isn't that transposing?

I mean, that is also doable, for some, with the music on the page. If
a note is a half step up in the key of DMaj, then it's a half step up
in any key. If a note is a fifth up from the starting note in C, then
it's going to be a fifth up from the D, as well. It's knowing what
that half step or that fifth is, in the different key.

right?

blessings, HeidiC

> Transposing is transposing.
>
> When you're singing in the shower and you just start on whatever
note comes
> to you, and you're in tune for that key (whatever it might be)
that's about
> relative pitch. It's starting with one note and knowing where to
go next to
> sing the song you have in mind.
>
> If I'm playing an instrument and start on a note, I might find
that's not an
> easy key for the song and I'll move to another key. That's not
relative
> pitch. That's operating within the bounds of that instrument.
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/22/2005 10:49:08 AM Mountain Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:


Okay, but if I took your "numbers" that you figured out for
Flinstones theme, and played starting at C, it would be in the key of
C.


No, it starts on "5" which would be a G in the key of C.
1 would be C.

-=- I could then take the same numbers and start with D or G, and,
playing the same "numbers" the song would then be in a different key.
Right? Isn't that transposing?
-=-

In a way.
It's not transposing if you never knew what key you were in in the first
place. "Transposing" is a formality about changing something from key to
another with the key in mind. In simplest rock'n'roll terms (or
country'n'western), it's moving to another higher key for the last verse. <G>

-= If a note is a fifth up from the starting note in C, then
it's going to be a fifth up from the D, as well. It's knowing what
that half step or that fifth is, in the different key.

right?
-=-

Yes. Usually the things they've found that were numbered were little-kid
sets of bells or chimes or little electronic keyboards with numbers on, and
usually the 1 was a "C" because they were set to keyboards. The steeldrum
might not've been in C. I don't have perfect pitch, so I don't know, but the
Flintstones played, using their numbers. <g>

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AlysonRR

=-=-=<<Perfect pitch also enables a person to sight-read singing. >>
Relative pitch does too. Knowing intervals is what makes sight reading
work.
I can sight read music, but I just get a starting pitch when it
matters, or
I don't when it doesn't matter. =-=-=

I've been told that perfect pitch actually makes it harder to sing in
groups. Most groups have a tendency to go flat compared to the original
pitch - if you have perfect pitch that's extremely irritating, yet on
person can't always "pull" the rest along to the correct pitch.

=-=-=There's another kind of music I sing sometimes called Sacred Harp
(shape
note, or fa-so-la are other names for that general style of music) and
it's all
based on relative pitch. Someone "sets the pitch" by singing the tonic
note and
others find their starting pitches from that. =-=-=

Similar if not identical methods are called "solfege" and "Kodaly". I
mention this only because if someone is interested in learning this type
of singing, it may be called by different names in different regions.
There are a couple places doing solfege with homeschooling families here
in the greater D.C. area. My son wants to try it next year.

Alyson, with relative pitch :-)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/22/2005 12:25:44 PM Mountain Standard Time,
AlysonRR@... writes:

I've been told that perfect pitch actually makes it harder to sing in
groups. Most groups have a tendency to go flat compared to the original
pitch - if you have perfect pitch that's extremely irritating, yet on
person can't always "pull" the rest along to the correct pitch.



That WOULD be irritating!
So I'm glad now to be blessed with relative only. Nothing inside me is
acting as a tuning fork, and yet I can tell if a chord is in tune. Lucky me! <g>

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

bunsofaluminum

Okay, so if I started at c, I'd be playing in the key of FMaj.

;)

Heidi




--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/22/2005 10:49:08 AM Mountain Standard Time,
> bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
>
>
> Okay, but if I took your "numbers" that you figured out for
> Flinstones theme, and played starting at C, it would be in the key
of
> C.
>
>
> No, it starts on "5" which would be a G in the key of C.
> 1 would be C.
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]