Kid wants to go to school, very sad mom
Pam Tellew
My 10 year old told me today he'd like to go to middle school next
year. He's always been unschooled. I've been on this list off and on
since he was one and I've seen many discussions about this but I have to
admit I didn't pay real close attention.
I've always agreed with the idea that unschoolers should have the freedom
to choose school but I'm having a very hard time dealing with the
reality. I can hardly stop crying and I keep trying to hide it from the
kids but they know. My son so clearly knows this isn't what I want that he
really seemed afraid to say it was what he wanted - that's not what I want.
I guess there are two issues: all the intense feeling I'm having and how
to deal with them when I really have very little time away from my kids...
and how to handle things with Sam.
I guess the more straightforward part is how to handle it with Sam. So far
we've asked why and he says he wants to be around kids his age more. He
understands the limitations of school interactions but he seems to like
being in a big group and kind of observing what all the other kids are
doing. Big unstructured groups like park day have always been hard for him
but he lives for this weekly nature program he goes to because he gets to
hang around with kids and be part of a group but if he's not really being
accepted into a small group he can still be there for a reason -
hiking. He loves this group even though he had problems with teasing (the
adults there handled it well). I think he thinks school will be like that
too. Or like Malcolm in the Middle - just the social parts.
He doesn't want to go for a day and just check it out and I learned that
the school district doesn't allow child visitors, only parents. I figure I
can visit and talk to teachers about bringing him by after school to look
at the books and all that. (I say I can; really I'm not sure I won't start
crying!)
He knows that the things he knows and has mastered hardly intersect at all
with the reading and writing of school. He asked me to teach him spelling
a couple of weeks ago (it turns out it was because he wanted to "get up to
speed" to go to school). He says he wants to see what's expected and work
on areas he's "behind" on before fall. It feels like a lot to me and I'm
trying to stay positive. I know it needs to be his thing, not mine, but I
really do cringe inside thinking of having to face teachers who will think
I'm educationally negligent. (Not feeling very strong right now.) I'm
wondering how much I should say to him. I mean, I think he'll probably get
teased for writing slowly in big crooked capital letters, but maybe he
won't. Do I keep quiet or try to prepare him emotionally and if so, how?
As far as his lack of kids: what happened is that we had a falling out
with some close friends a year ago, also had some uncertainty about moving
and have had the least social year since he was born. I feel socially
deprived too! Last week, after we finally decided not to move, I started
arranging a whole bunch of homeschool social things for us. Felt like
spring was coming to me, but maybe it was too late for him. He says he
was happy with our group before we had this falling out and homeschooling
was working for him. He doesn't seem optimistic about new groups meeting
his needs. He has a point that there aren't lots of kids his age and
homeschoolers around here often go to high school - few teens. I was
hoping to use my pretty good organizing skills to try to create a pool of
homeschooled teens for my kids. But I thought I had more time.
He might change his mind before fall but he usually doesn't. He did say he
wouldn't want to do it if he didn't have the option to quit (which of
course he would). And I know it might not last.
But what do I do now? Do I not try to talk him out of it? (I'm so bad at
keeping my opinions to myself - maybe that's why he wants to go.) What do
I do with all my sad (not necessarily rational) feelings - that I'm losing
him, that he's somehow rejecting our values, that he thinks unschooling
doesn't work...I don't know. I'm a wreck.
Pam T.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
year. He's always been unschooled. I've been on this list off and on
since he was one and I've seen many discussions about this but I have to
admit I didn't pay real close attention.
I've always agreed with the idea that unschoolers should have the freedom
to choose school but I'm having a very hard time dealing with the
reality. I can hardly stop crying and I keep trying to hide it from the
kids but they know. My son so clearly knows this isn't what I want that he
really seemed afraid to say it was what he wanted - that's not what I want.
I guess there are two issues: all the intense feeling I'm having and how
to deal with them when I really have very little time away from my kids...
and how to handle things with Sam.
I guess the more straightforward part is how to handle it with Sam. So far
we've asked why and he says he wants to be around kids his age more. He
understands the limitations of school interactions but he seems to like
being in a big group and kind of observing what all the other kids are
doing. Big unstructured groups like park day have always been hard for him
but he lives for this weekly nature program he goes to because he gets to
hang around with kids and be part of a group but if he's not really being
accepted into a small group he can still be there for a reason -
hiking. He loves this group even though he had problems with teasing (the
adults there handled it well). I think he thinks school will be like that
too. Or like Malcolm in the Middle - just the social parts.
He doesn't want to go for a day and just check it out and I learned that
the school district doesn't allow child visitors, only parents. I figure I
can visit and talk to teachers about bringing him by after school to look
at the books and all that. (I say I can; really I'm not sure I won't start
crying!)
He knows that the things he knows and has mastered hardly intersect at all
with the reading and writing of school. He asked me to teach him spelling
a couple of weeks ago (it turns out it was because he wanted to "get up to
speed" to go to school). He says he wants to see what's expected and work
on areas he's "behind" on before fall. It feels like a lot to me and I'm
trying to stay positive. I know it needs to be his thing, not mine, but I
really do cringe inside thinking of having to face teachers who will think
I'm educationally negligent. (Not feeling very strong right now.) I'm
wondering how much I should say to him. I mean, I think he'll probably get
teased for writing slowly in big crooked capital letters, but maybe he
won't. Do I keep quiet or try to prepare him emotionally and if so, how?
As far as his lack of kids: what happened is that we had a falling out
with some close friends a year ago, also had some uncertainty about moving
and have had the least social year since he was born. I feel socially
deprived too! Last week, after we finally decided not to move, I started
arranging a whole bunch of homeschool social things for us. Felt like
spring was coming to me, but maybe it was too late for him. He says he
was happy with our group before we had this falling out and homeschooling
was working for him. He doesn't seem optimistic about new groups meeting
his needs. He has a point that there aren't lots of kids his age and
homeschoolers around here often go to high school - few teens. I was
hoping to use my pretty good organizing skills to try to create a pool of
homeschooled teens for my kids. But I thought I had more time.
He might change his mind before fall but he usually doesn't. He did say he
wouldn't want to do it if he didn't have the option to quit (which of
course he would). And I know it might not last.
But what do I do now? Do I not try to talk him out of it? (I'm so bad at
keeping my opinions to myself - maybe that's why he wants to go.) What do
I do with all my sad (not necessarily rational) feelings - that I'm losing
him, that he's somehow rejecting our values, that he thinks unschooling
doesn't work...I don't know. I'm a wreck.
Pam T.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**My 10 year old told me today he'd like to go to middle school next
year. He's always been unschooled.**
Hi, PamT --
Your ten year old who probably wouldn't come to my eleven year old's birthday party because he wouldn't know all of the kids? (Not to be way too sarcastic, but how's that going to work???? The kids are nicer and the food is (marginally) better at my parties than in an institution.) (It's hard for me to imagine any tender-heaerted kid liking middle school. I just don't have a good feeling about this.)
**I've always agreed with the idea that unschoolers should have the freedom
to choose school but I'm having a very hard time dealing with the
reality. **
Yeah, me too. I believe in the theory, but would hate to let my dear child go to school.
**
Big unstructured groups like park day have always been hard for him
but he lives for this weekly nature program he goes to because he gets to
hang around with kids and be part of a group but if he's not really being
accepted into a small group he can still be there for a reason ...**
I can relate to this. I was out hanging with the ladies of the quilt guild tonight. We have two kind of meetings. In the beginning, the business meetings that were very structured were much easier for me (as a newcomer) to attend than anything that involved socializing and standing around.
**
But what do I do now? Do I not try to talk him out of it? **
I think the textbook <g> answer is to look for the unmet need. Sometimes a 5 year old just wants a lunch box or a chance to ride the bus. Sam, at his age and from what you said, may want two things, reassurance that he is really learning and peer interaction with structure.
I'm just guessing.
Take the advice that fits and let the rest roll off.
Betsy
PS If he's set on trying school, could he try summer school? Then he'd be in and out sooner than if you waited until September. Hey, there are summer programs at UC Berkeley in science/math that I just saw an email about that go down to a pretty young age. Not the age 15 cutoff that I saw for one program there, but much younger. (But homework was mentioned -- yuck.) Hmmmm. Hey, he might even like summer day camp stuff, if you could pick a good one.
year. He's always been unschooled.**
Hi, PamT --
Your ten year old who probably wouldn't come to my eleven year old's birthday party because he wouldn't know all of the kids? (Not to be way too sarcastic, but how's that going to work???? The kids are nicer and the food is (marginally) better at my parties than in an institution.) (It's hard for me to imagine any tender-heaerted kid liking middle school. I just don't have a good feeling about this.)
**I've always agreed with the idea that unschoolers should have the freedom
to choose school but I'm having a very hard time dealing with the
reality. **
Yeah, me too. I believe in the theory, but would hate to let my dear child go to school.
**
Big unstructured groups like park day have always been hard for him
but he lives for this weekly nature program he goes to because he gets to
hang around with kids and be part of a group but if he's not really being
accepted into a small group he can still be there for a reason ...**
I can relate to this. I was out hanging with the ladies of the quilt guild tonight. We have two kind of meetings. In the beginning, the business meetings that were very structured were much easier for me (as a newcomer) to attend than anything that involved socializing and standing around.
**
But what do I do now? Do I not try to talk him out of it? **
I think the textbook <g> answer is to look for the unmet need. Sometimes a 5 year old just wants a lunch box or a chance to ride the bus. Sam, at his age and from what you said, may want two things, reassurance that he is really learning and peer interaction with structure.
I'm just guessing.
Take the advice that fits and let the rest roll off.
Betsy
PS If he's set on trying school, could he try summer school? Then he'd be in and out sooner than if you waited until September. Hey, there are summer programs at UC Berkeley in science/math that I just saw an email about that go down to a pretty young age. Not the age 15 cutoff that I saw for one program there, but much younger. (But homework was mentioned -- yuck.) Hmmmm. Hey, he might even like summer day camp stuff, if you could pick a good one.
[email protected]
The summer-classes thing sounds doable, especially if you're in a college
town where there's cool stuff, rather than remedial make-up stuff for kids who
failed.
Holly's thinking of going to 8th grade, and that's pretty creepy BUT... her
handwriting is passable, and when she was ten it really wasn't.
When she was ten, she wasn't reading.
When she was ten, she wouldn't have done well in school at all.
But at 13/14 I think she could do okay.
She might change her mind, and if she does go, she might not last long. She
doesn't even plan to last long, but I would prepare myself for the
possibility that it might surprise her and she might like it.
I understand the fears. It seems unschoolers are "ahead" when they're
little, and then seem lagging in the 10-12 range, and then zoom on "ahead" again,
when the kids at school are hitting puberty and sick of the whole deal.
_http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice_ (http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice)
detachment for the mom could be good, and that article might help.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
town where there's cool stuff, rather than remedial make-up stuff for kids who
failed.
Holly's thinking of going to 8th grade, and that's pretty creepy BUT... her
handwriting is passable, and when she was ten it really wasn't.
When she was ten, she wasn't reading.
When she was ten, she wouldn't have done well in school at all.
But at 13/14 I think she could do okay.
She might change her mind, and if she does go, she might not last long. She
doesn't even plan to last long, but I would prepare myself for the
possibility that it might surprise her and she might like it.
I understand the fears. It seems unschoolers are "ahead" when they're
little, and then seem lagging in the 10-12 range, and then zoom on "ahead" again,
when the kids at school are hitting puberty and sick of the whole deal.
_http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice_ (http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice)
detachment for the mom could be good, and that article might help.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ruth
Hi Pam
My 10 DD year begged to go to school. She was upset cos she thought I was upset ( she was right but I howled silent tears in our walk in pantry for ages) then set about finding a school for her. After a few weeks looking -( schools here are rubbish and tbh not much to choose from) I found one. The secretary screeched down the phone when she found out that dd had not been to school for over 4 years and accused me of negligence. At the same time I had other home educators saying stuff like "You wouldn't let her take drugs - school is bad for her e.t.c Don' t let her go. I still felt I had to give her the choice otherwise all my ideas about unschooling were a sham.
She started hedging. I don' t really want to go e.t.c Then saying she did. I cancelled visits around schools and rebooked them on her whim. It got silly. In the end I discovered she wanted some schooled friends and saw this as the only way to get them. She didn't fit in with the home educated crowd we knew. One art class and one drama class a week cured the problem. She hasn't asked about school since. (to my upmost relief).
Ruth
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My 10 DD year begged to go to school. She was upset cos she thought I was upset ( she was right but I howled silent tears in our walk in pantry for ages) then set about finding a school for her. After a few weeks looking -( schools here are rubbish and tbh not much to choose from) I found one. The secretary screeched down the phone when she found out that dd had not been to school for over 4 years and accused me of negligence. At the same time I had other home educators saying stuff like "You wouldn't let her take drugs - school is bad for her e.t.c Don' t let her go. I still felt I had to give her the choice otherwise all my ideas about unschooling were a sham.
She started hedging. I don' t really want to go e.t.c Then saying she did. I cancelled visits around schools and rebooked them on her whim. It got silly. In the end I discovered she wanted some schooled friends and saw this as the only way to get them. She didn't fit in with the home educated crowd we knew. One art class and one drama class a week cured the problem. She hasn't asked about school since. (to my upmost relief).
Ruth
____________________________________________________________________________
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Communications' email Anti-Virus service and no known viruses were detected.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**
My 10 DD year begged to go to school. She was upset cos she thought I was upset ( she was right but I howled silent tears in our walk in pantry for ages) then set about finding a school for her. After a few weeks looking -( schools here are rubbish and tbh not much to choose from) I found one. The secretary screeched down the phone when she found out that dd had not been to school for over 4 years and accused me of negligence. **
Screeching secretaries aside, (shudder), I would assume that most private schools would be more likely to be willing to arrange a visiting day than public schools. (They need to be nicer to customers than public schools do.) Whether or not you can afford private school, you can investigate them and consider it a "field trip". (I wouldn't urge you to present yourself dishonestly to the school, but I don't think it costs them much effort to let you and your child look around.)
In addition to summer camps, there are often even weeklong camps for kids for Spring Breaks, so that parents can still go to work everyday. Some of them might have some thoughtful content, maybe. This is something participatory that Sam could try out very soon. (Although it will cost as much as other forms of daycare, possibly.)
Betsy
My 10 DD year begged to go to school. She was upset cos she thought I was upset ( she was right but I howled silent tears in our walk in pantry for ages) then set about finding a school for her. After a few weeks looking -( schools here are rubbish and tbh not much to choose from) I found one. The secretary screeched down the phone when she found out that dd had not been to school for over 4 years and accused me of negligence. **
Screeching secretaries aside, (shudder), I would assume that most private schools would be more likely to be willing to arrange a visiting day than public schools. (They need to be nicer to customers than public schools do.) Whether or not you can afford private school, you can investigate them and consider it a "field trip". (I wouldn't urge you to present yourself dishonestly to the school, but I don't think it costs them much effort to let you and your child look around.)
In addition to summer camps, there are often even weeklong camps for kids for Spring Breaks, so that parents can still go to work everyday. Some of them might have some thoughtful content, maybe. This is something participatory that Sam could try out very soon. (Although it will cost as much as other forms of daycare, possibly.)
Betsy
Pam Tellew
***Your ten year old who probably wouldn't come to my eleven year old's
birthday party because he wouldn't know all of the kids? (Not to be way
too sarcastic, but how's that going to work????
***
Betsy, thanks. (And I never even asked him about the birthday party, just
assumed. Ooops...) The sarcasm was appreciated and it points something
out to me. That I am completely floored by this change in him. He's
always been reluctant to go into anonymous big groups. He said himself
that a few months ago he didn't want to ever even go to high school and now
he wants this. I need to explore why such a big change. I have schooling
friends who say it's a natural part of separation. I'm not so sure.
**I think the textbook <g> answer is to look for the unmet need. Sometimes
a 5 year old just wants a lunch box or a chance to ride the bus. Sam, at
his age and from what you said, may want two things, reassurance that he is
really learning and peer interaction with structure.***
Yeah, I need to explore what he's hoping to get out of the peer interaction
with structure. Close relationships? Some laughs at the goofy things they
do to make each other laugh? In some ways, I suspect, he'd like to be
constantly entertained by other kids being funny. (I wasn't kidding that
he expects it to be like Malcolm in the Middle.) And I think he's wanting
to feel just like everyone else. What do I do with that? That feels icky
to me. Sooo against what I value (and yet, what I still struggle with...)
I wonder if summer camps would do it. He seems interested in school, that
great big other out there. But he wants to go in the fall when all the 6th
graders are new and he thinks he won't stand out as much.
OK, Sandra, re-reading your school choice article was helpful. But it
sounds like your sister made it abundantly clear that she'd prefer the kids
be home. I'm wondering how much to say about that. I know denigrating his
desires leads to a loss of relationship. But I can't stop thinking of all
these thing I want to tell him about why I think unschooling is so much
better. I've thought about reading him John Taylor Gatto or James Herndon
or something that expresses my view that school is a waste of life. (He'd
probably enjoy it. He likes to hears things like Fast Food Nation and
Botany of Desire. )
***
When she was ten, she wasn't reading.
When she was ten, she wouldn't have done well in school at all.***
Hard to envision Sam doing well right now. (And if he does, I have this
morbid fear that he'll credit school with teaching him and think
unschooling doesn't "work.") I worry about how that will affect him, to be
so obviously at a different level. Will he think he can't do those
things? What would you have said to Holly about it if she'd wanted to go
then? Anything?
Ruth, thank you for sharing your story. That is encouraging and I hope my
attempts at helping him beef up his social life work without school. He
said something similar about not feeling like he fits in with
homeschoolers. Around here they tend to be high achievers, artists,
performers, musicians...and quite parentally directed, not what he is.
Here's what I think I need help with, folks. I want to share information
and my opinions and have him hear my concerns but I don't want to cross the
line and make him feel so pressured that it harms our relationship. How do
I find that line? (I don't think the "What would I say to my husband?"
route will work. We just went through this about moving and I had a hard
time dropping the subject when I should have!)
I'm reading Teen Parent Breakthrough (thanks, Pam S.) which I've had for a
while, but I think I really need it now. (But still can't believe these
issues are coming up at age 10!)
Pam T.
birthday party because he wouldn't know all of the kids? (Not to be way
too sarcastic, but how's that going to work????
***
Betsy, thanks. (And I never even asked him about the birthday party, just
assumed. Ooops...) The sarcasm was appreciated and it points something
out to me. That I am completely floored by this change in him. He's
always been reluctant to go into anonymous big groups. He said himself
that a few months ago he didn't want to ever even go to high school and now
he wants this. I need to explore why such a big change. I have schooling
friends who say it's a natural part of separation. I'm not so sure.
**I think the textbook <g> answer is to look for the unmet need. Sometimes
a 5 year old just wants a lunch box or a chance to ride the bus. Sam, at
his age and from what you said, may want two things, reassurance that he is
really learning and peer interaction with structure.***
Yeah, I need to explore what he's hoping to get out of the peer interaction
with structure. Close relationships? Some laughs at the goofy things they
do to make each other laugh? In some ways, I suspect, he'd like to be
constantly entertained by other kids being funny. (I wasn't kidding that
he expects it to be like Malcolm in the Middle.) And I think he's wanting
to feel just like everyone else. What do I do with that? That feels icky
to me. Sooo against what I value (and yet, what I still struggle with...)
I wonder if summer camps would do it. He seems interested in school, that
great big other out there. But he wants to go in the fall when all the 6th
graders are new and he thinks he won't stand out as much.
OK, Sandra, re-reading your school choice article was helpful. But it
sounds like your sister made it abundantly clear that she'd prefer the kids
be home. I'm wondering how much to say about that. I know denigrating his
desires leads to a loss of relationship. But I can't stop thinking of all
these thing I want to tell him about why I think unschooling is so much
better. I've thought about reading him John Taylor Gatto or James Herndon
or something that expresses my view that school is a waste of life. (He'd
probably enjoy it. He likes to hears things like Fast Food Nation and
Botany of Desire. )
***
When she was ten, she wasn't reading.
When she was ten, she wouldn't have done well in school at all.***
Hard to envision Sam doing well right now. (And if he does, I have this
morbid fear that he'll credit school with teaching him and think
unschooling doesn't "work.") I worry about how that will affect him, to be
so obviously at a different level. Will he think he can't do those
things? What would you have said to Holly about it if she'd wanted to go
then? Anything?
Ruth, thank you for sharing your story. That is encouraging and I hope my
attempts at helping him beef up his social life work without school. He
said something similar about not feeling like he fits in with
homeschoolers. Around here they tend to be high achievers, artists,
performers, musicians...and quite parentally directed, not what he is.
Here's what I think I need help with, folks. I want to share information
and my opinions and have him hear my concerns but I don't want to cross the
line and make him feel so pressured that it harms our relationship. How do
I find that line? (I don't think the "What would I say to my husband?"
route will work. We just went through this about moving and I had a hard
time dropping the subject when I should have!)
I'm reading Teen Parent Breakthrough (thanks, Pam S.) which I've had for a
while, but I think I really need it now. (But still can't believe these
issues are coming up at age 10!)
Pam T.
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/19/2005 3:04:45 AM Mountain Standard Time,
pamtellew@... writes:
OK, Sandra, re-reading your school choice article was helpful. But it
sounds like your sister made it abundantly clear that she'd prefer the kids
be home. I'm wondering how much to say about that. I know denigrating his
desires leads to a loss of relationship.
---------------------
If you tell him WHY you're afraid and what you're afraid of, he might still
want to go, but at least he'll know.
If you leave it neutrally open without expressing your concerns, those very
things might happen to him and your later "I knew that would happen" might be
more cruel than an advance "I'm worried that this could happen."
-=- But I can't stop thinking of all
these thing I want to tell him about why I think unschooling is so much
better. I've thought about reading him John Taylor Gatto or James Herndon
or something that expresses my view that school is a waste of life. (He'd
probably enjoy it. He likes to hears things like Fast Food Nation and
Botany of Desire. )
-=-
Once in a while you might throw him a quote, but if you do it every single
day he might want to go to school to get away from it! <bwg>
-=-Will he think he can't do those
things? What would you have said to Holly about it if she'd wanted to go
then? Anything?=-
That the other kids might be mean about her handwriting not being good, or
that the teachers might make her feel bad about being a homeschooler. That's
standing prediction, even though now she's 13. They WILL be mean, not might.
But I didn't word it that strongly, because my kids have a kind of charm
about them that deflects some of the meanness I've seen in others, and my kids
are confident. But none of them was fully-on confident at eight or ten.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamtellew@... writes:
OK, Sandra, re-reading your school choice article was helpful. But it
sounds like your sister made it abundantly clear that she'd prefer the kids
be home. I'm wondering how much to say about that. I know denigrating his
desires leads to a loss of relationship.
---------------------
If you tell him WHY you're afraid and what you're afraid of, he might still
want to go, but at least he'll know.
If you leave it neutrally open without expressing your concerns, those very
things might happen to him and your later "I knew that would happen" might be
more cruel than an advance "I'm worried that this could happen."
-=- But I can't stop thinking of all
these thing I want to tell him about why I think unschooling is so much
better. I've thought about reading him John Taylor Gatto or James Herndon
or something that expresses my view that school is a waste of life. (He'd
probably enjoy it. He likes to hears things like Fast Food Nation and
Botany of Desire. )
-=-
Once in a while you might throw him a quote, but if you do it every single
day he might want to go to school to get away from it! <bwg>
-=-Will he think he can't do those
things? What would you have said to Holly about it if she'd wanted to go
then? Anything?=-
That the other kids might be mean about her handwriting not being good, or
that the teachers might make her feel bad about being a homeschooler. That's
standing prediction, even though now she's 13. They WILL be mean, not might.
But I didn't word it that strongly, because my kids have a kind of charm
about them that deflects some of the meanness I've seen in others, and my kids
are confident. But none of them was fully-on confident at eight or ten.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**In some ways, I suspect, he'd like to be constantly entertained by
other kids being funny. (I wasn't kidding that he expects it to be like
Malcolm in the Middle.)**
When I wanted to have a kid, I think I imagined we would be a
wise-cracking sitcom family. And it is kind of like that at our house,
on my best nights. <g>
The Simpsons is a funny show that shows some of the ugly side of school in a very knowing way. If you watch, there will be lots of classroom, playground and school bus scenes that you can discuss.
**And I think he's wanting to feel just like everyone else. What do I do with that?**
(My first thought was read lots of Spiderman comics that show the loner as hero, but those might be too sad.)
Let's shake and rattle some of our assumptions about individuality as a good thing. I do think individuality is important, but, on the other hand, learning how to blend in and function in groups can be a very useful skill. (Nobody yell at me until reaching the end of this paragraph. <g>) I *don't* think a classroom is a good way to learn this stuff, especially not a middle school classroom. But doing some roleplaying at home about group dynamics, and reading Miss Manners at the breakfast table, and looking for some pleasant group activities and integrating more social coaching might help. It is useful to be able to assess new group situations and understand their dynamics and join in that new community without making a lot of waves. (I realize this may be tangential to what you asked.)
Stretching even more, it's possible that doing some kind of volunteer work in the community is a way to meet the need to feel good about oneself and to feel happy about being connected to other people.
(I wish there were more activities that welcomed kids and adults simultaneously. But maybe I'm just not using enough imagination right now. There are certainly some activities that don't exclude kids. Bird-watching? Pickle-making? umm...)
I tend to be kind of chaotic person, but maybe Sam likes structure and predictability in his Saturday class. Is it possible to have some structure at home, or would the younger kid be a "destablizing force"? <g>
Would you be offended if I suggested he try Fifth Grade instead of Sixth? I really don't know anything about his "academic skills" except what you said about his handwriting. I will happily admit that my son's academic development has been ideosyncratic and "uneven". Middle School seems so much worse than Grammar School.
Betsy
**OK, Sandra, re-reading your school choice article was helpful. But it
sounds like your sister made it abundantly clear that she'd prefer the kids
be home. I'm wondering how much to say about that. I know denigrating his
desires leads to a loss of relationship.**
I haven't read this article in a long time, but I would think it's okay to talk about how much you like to have him at home and how much you will continue to make your interactions with him fun ; just don't go in the guilt direction about how much you will miss him. As if you were inviting and not coercing an adult friend to do something with you. Lots of "we'd love to have you" and "we've got food you like and the chance to stop whenever you want to..." reassurance. But no "you'll be sorry you didn't", of course.
other kids being funny. (I wasn't kidding that he expects it to be like
Malcolm in the Middle.)**
When I wanted to have a kid, I think I imagined we would be a
wise-cracking sitcom family. And it is kind of like that at our house,
on my best nights. <g>
The Simpsons is a funny show that shows some of the ugly side of school in a very knowing way. If you watch, there will be lots of classroom, playground and school bus scenes that you can discuss.
**And I think he's wanting to feel just like everyone else. What do I do with that?**
(My first thought was read lots of Spiderman comics that show the loner as hero, but those might be too sad.)
Let's shake and rattle some of our assumptions about individuality as a good thing. I do think individuality is important, but, on the other hand, learning how to blend in and function in groups can be a very useful skill. (Nobody yell at me until reaching the end of this paragraph. <g>) I *don't* think a classroom is a good way to learn this stuff, especially not a middle school classroom. But doing some roleplaying at home about group dynamics, and reading Miss Manners at the breakfast table, and looking for some pleasant group activities and integrating more social coaching might help. It is useful to be able to assess new group situations and understand their dynamics and join in that new community without making a lot of waves. (I realize this may be tangential to what you asked.)
Stretching even more, it's possible that doing some kind of volunteer work in the community is a way to meet the need to feel good about oneself and to feel happy about being connected to other people.
(I wish there were more activities that welcomed kids and adults simultaneously. But maybe I'm just not using enough imagination right now. There are certainly some activities that don't exclude kids. Bird-watching? Pickle-making? umm...)
I tend to be kind of chaotic person, but maybe Sam likes structure and predictability in his Saturday class. Is it possible to have some structure at home, or would the younger kid be a "destablizing force"? <g>
Would you be offended if I suggested he try Fifth Grade instead of Sixth? I really don't know anything about his "academic skills" except what you said about his handwriting. I will happily admit that my son's academic development has been ideosyncratic and "uneven". Middle School seems so much worse than Grammar School.
Betsy
**OK, Sandra, re-reading your school choice article was helpful. But it
sounds like your sister made it abundantly clear that she'd prefer the kids
be home. I'm wondering how much to say about that. I know denigrating his
desires leads to a loss of relationship.**
I haven't read this article in a long time, but I would think it's okay to talk about how much you like to have him at home and how much you will continue to make your interactions with him fun ; just don't go in the guilt direction about how much you will miss him. As if you were inviting and not coercing an adult friend to do something with you. Lots of "we'd love to have you" and "we've got food you like and the chance to stop whenever you want to..." reassurance. But no "you'll be sorry you didn't", of course.
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/19/2005 9:47:48 AM Mountain Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
When I wanted to have a kid, I think I imagined we would be a
wise-cracking sitcom family. And it is kind of like that at our house,
on my best nights. <g>
------------------
Our house is most of the time.
The other night something blew up amusingly in the microwave, and was oozing
out, and had splatted everywhere, and I was cleaning it up. Holly came by
and asked if there was anything she could do to help. I said not really, but
just to feel sorry for me. She said "Mom, I always feel sorry for you."
Ba-dum CHING!
-=-But doing some roleplaying at home about group dynamics, and reading Miss
Manners at the breakfast table, and looking for some pleasant group
activities and integrating more social coaching might help. -=-
Talking about movie characters' outcomes can help too. What someone's doing
that's not working so well (and then remind them it's acting, and the actor
KNEW he was acting like a person who was displaying troublesome traits.
-=-Would you be offended if I suggested he try Fifth Grade instead of
Sixth?=-
I suggested Holly might want to do 7th instead of 8th grade, if she goes to
midschool next year, but she doesn't want to do PE. She's heard scary
stories about locker rooms and about people not liking PE.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
When I wanted to have a kid, I think I imagined we would be a
wise-cracking sitcom family. And it is kind of like that at our house,
on my best nights. <g>
------------------
Our house is most of the time.
The other night something blew up amusingly in the microwave, and was oozing
out, and had splatted everywhere, and I was cleaning it up. Holly came by
and asked if there was anything she could do to help. I said not really, but
just to feel sorry for me. She said "Mom, I always feel sorry for you."
Ba-dum CHING!
-=-But doing some roleplaying at home about group dynamics, and reading Miss
Manners at the breakfast table, and looking for some pleasant group
activities and integrating more social coaching might help. -=-
Talking about movie characters' outcomes can help too. What someone's doing
that's not working so well (and then remind them it's acting, and the actor
KNEW he was acting like a person who was displaying troublesome traits.
-=-Would you be offended if I suggested he try Fifth Grade instead of
Sixth?=-
I suggested Holly might want to do 7th instead of 8th grade, if she goes to
midschool next year, but she doesn't want to do PE. She's heard scary
stories about locker rooms and about people not liking PE.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
Don't hold out on him by not giving him the benefit of your knowledge
and ideas. Let him know clearly why YOU chose not to send him to school
and what your concerns are about him going. Be honest. BUT - you can do
that while still honoring HIS opinions - you don't have to (I know you
wouldn't) make him feel like an idiot for wanting to try it out. It is
SO understandable that a kid who has never gone to school might think
that is THE answer if he's feeling out of sorts - socially, especially.
You can offer your information and ideas and listen carefully to his
AND you can even say, "Well, it is part of my own philosophy to support
you when you have strong interests like this so that IS what I'm going
to do." You don't want to lie to him by pretending that you think it is
a great idea - but you DO want to be honest with him that you're going
to help and support him in his choice even though it wouldn't be your
choice. AND - you can be honest with him that you're really pleased
that he's thinking for himself and trying to find FOR HIMSELF what
works. Also be REALLY sure that he understands that YOU understand that
he's making this decision without full knowledge of how it will work
out - create an attitude between you that he's experimenting - because
you definitely don't want to do anything that will make him feel stuck,
like he's failed or screwed up in some way if, after a day or a week or
a month, he wants to stop going.
I'm just tossing this out there, because I don't know for sure,
obviously, but the friends you had a falling out with included kids
he'd spent a lot of time with and to him this is almost like a death -
somebody he was very close to who is no longer available to him. I
think you said it has been around a year - maybe he's just coming to
terms with the fact that this is permanent - a bit like coming to terms
with death. So he's sort of deep inside decided it is time to do
something about developing a new social life, and school looks, from
the outside, like the prime place to do that. Makes sense and is a
good and healthy and smart move on his part, if that is what is
motivating it. HE doesn't know what the social life of middle school is
really like - the miserable parts of it are made fun of on Malcolm in
the Middle, as if it is all a joke. So - if you respect that he
absolutely does have valid reasons for wanting to go, and accept them
JUST like you've accepted his interests in everything else for the past
10 years, treat it the same way as if he'd said he wants to go to any
other activity - help him weigh the pros and cons, respect HIS
opinions, support his decisions, make sure he FEELS that his option to
change his mind is wide open, I think you're going to do fine with
this, Pam.
You have to stop feeling it as a personal failure and see it as just
another interest of his - since it is problematic in so many ways,
you'd want to explore what he wants out of it, what the problems are
that you (and he) see with it, etc. JUST as if he decided to take up
scuba diving or sky diving or something else that seems dangerous and
scary to you.
-pam
and ideas. Let him know clearly why YOU chose not to send him to school
and what your concerns are about him going. Be honest. BUT - you can do
that while still honoring HIS opinions - you don't have to (I know you
wouldn't) make him feel like an idiot for wanting to try it out. It is
SO understandable that a kid who has never gone to school might think
that is THE answer if he's feeling out of sorts - socially, especially.
You can offer your information and ideas and listen carefully to his
AND you can even say, "Well, it is part of my own philosophy to support
you when you have strong interests like this so that IS what I'm going
to do." You don't want to lie to him by pretending that you think it is
a great idea - but you DO want to be honest with him that you're going
to help and support him in his choice even though it wouldn't be your
choice. AND - you can be honest with him that you're really pleased
that he's thinking for himself and trying to find FOR HIMSELF what
works. Also be REALLY sure that he understands that YOU understand that
he's making this decision without full knowledge of how it will work
out - create an attitude between you that he's experimenting - because
you definitely don't want to do anything that will make him feel stuck,
like he's failed or screwed up in some way if, after a day or a week or
a month, he wants to stop going.
I'm just tossing this out there, because I don't know for sure,
obviously, but the friends you had a falling out with included kids
he'd spent a lot of time with and to him this is almost like a death -
somebody he was very close to who is no longer available to him. I
think you said it has been around a year - maybe he's just coming to
terms with the fact that this is permanent - a bit like coming to terms
with death. So he's sort of deep inside decided it is time to do
something about developing a new social life, and school looks, from
the outside, like the prime place to do that. Makes sense and is a
good and healthy and smart move on his part, if that is what is
motivating it. HE doesn't know what the social life of middle school is
really like - the miserable parts of it are made fun of on Malcolm in
the Middle, as if it is all a joke. So - if you respect that he
absolutely does have valid reasons for wanting to go, and accept them
JUST like you've accepted his interests in everything else for the past
10 years, treat it the same way as if he'd said he wants to go to any
other activity - help him weigh the pros and cons, respect HIS
opinions, support his decisions, make sure he FEELS that his option to
change his mind is wide open, I think you're going to do fine with
this, Pam.
You have to stop feeling it as a personal failure and see it as just
another interest of his - since it is problematic in so many ways,
you'd want to explore what he wants out of it, what the problems are
that you (and he) see with it, etc. JUST as if he decided to take up
scuba diving or sky diving or something else that seems dangerous and
scary to you.
-pam
On Mar 19, 2005, at 2:02 AM, Pam Tellew wrote:
>
> OK, Sandra, re-reading your school choice article was helpful. But it
> sounds like your sister made it abundantly clear that she'd prefer the
> kids
> be home. I'm wondering how much to say about that. I know
> denigrating his
> desires leads to a loss of relationship. But I can't stop thinking of
> all
> these thing I want to tell him about why I think unschooling is so much
> better.
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/19/2005 11:06:25 AM Mountain Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
create an attitude between you that he's experimenting - because
you definitely don't want to do anything that will make him feel stuck,
like he's failed or screwed up in some way if, after a day or a week or
a month, he wants to stop going.
-----------
That's how we're talking with Holly about it. She'd be going to school as an
animal behavioralist would camp out with the coyotes or go to Africa to watch
chimpanzees like Jane Goodall, only she'd be disguised as one of the
animals.
If she goes
and if she likes it
and if she stays
pretty soon I won't be an unschooling mom anymore! Marty's already sixteen
and a half.
But if she goes and just does it clinically and doesn't get invested and
comes home, then we'll see whether she feels like she went to school to learn
the material school presents in the classroom or whether she went to school like
an anthropologist to study the behavior of teachers and students in school.
Maybe you could try that idea out and see how he feels about it.
Also, I would tell the principal straight out that you'd rather keep him at
home and you don't trust the school not to do damage to his psyche and self
esteem, and that if they can keep it to a minimum you'd appreciate it. I'd
tell them you'll be happy to bring him home in a heartbeat if he's unhappy, and
that you're sure he'll really enjoy homeschooling even more when he comes
home.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
create an attitude between you that he's experimenting - because
you definitely don't want to do anything that will make him feel stuck,
like he's failed or screwed up in some way if, after a day or a week or
a month, he wants to stop going.
-----------
That's how we're talking with Holly about it. She'd be going to school as an
animal behavioralist would camp out with the coyotes or go to Africa to watch
chimpanzees like Jane Goodall, only she'd be disguised as one of the
animals.
If she goes
and if she likes it
and if she stays
pretty soon I won't be an unschooling mom anymore! Marty's already sixteen
and a half.
But if she goes and just does it clinically and doesn't get invested and
comes home, then we'll see whether she feels like she went to school to learn
the material school presents in the classroom or whether she went to school like
an anthropologist to study the behavior of teachers and students in school.
Maybe you could try that idea out and see how he feels about it.
Also, I would tell the principal straight out that you'd rather keep him at
home and you don't trust the school not to do damage to his psyche and self
esteem, and that if they can keep it to a minimum you'd appreciate it. I'd
tell them you'll be happy to bring him home in a heartbeat if he's unhappy, and
that you're sure he'll really enjoy homeschooling even more when he comes
home.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 19, 2005, at 9:03 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
of such a thing.
I was okay with PE - at least we could talk to each other. I was
reasonably athletic, so there weren't a LOT of traumas there for me -
just a few that stand out over the years. Oh - and the 7th and 8th
grade PE teacher (Miss Allard) who made us hold our towels over our
heads and turn around as we came out of the showers so she could look
at our whole naked bodies and "make sure you washed." HUH?
There was some kind of scandal and she was fired a couple of years
later when my sister was one of her students.
In 9th grade I had Mrs. Wiley who was short and very fat - got out of
breath walking out to the PE fields. What kind of PE teacher is that?
GREAT one - we just played all the time - she graded us on showing up
and participating, not on skills.
-pam
> I suggested Holly might want to do 7th instead of 8th grade, if sheHow funny - they don't do PE in 8th grade? Just 7th? I've never heard
> goes to
> midschool next year, but she doesn't want to do PE. She's heard scary
> stories about locker rooms and about people not liking PE.
of such a thing.
I was okay with PE - at least we could talk to each other. I was
reasonably athletic, so there weren't a LOT of traumas there for me -
just a few that stand out over the years. Oh - and the 7th and 8th
grade PE teacher (Miss Allard) who made us hold our towels over our
heads and turn around as we came out of the showers so she could look
at our whole naked bodies and "make sure you washed." HUH?
There was some kind of scandal and she was fired a couple of years
later when my sister was one of her students.
In 9th grade I had Mrs. Wiley who was short and very fat - got out of
breath walking out to the PE fields. What kind of PE teacher is that?
GREAT one - we just played all the time - she graded us on showing up
and participating, not on skills.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/19/2005 11:15:38 AM Mountain Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
How funny - they don't do PE in 8th grade? Just 7th? I've never heard
of such a thing.
-----------
In our district when I was in school, PE was required in 9th and 10th, and
optional from 7th to 12th, if there was room in the classes after the required
kids were in, I think.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
How funny - they don't do PE in 8th grade? Just 7th? I've never heard
of such a thing.
-----------
In our district when I was in school, PE was required in 9th and 10th, and
optional from 7th to 12th, if there was room in the classes after the required
kids were in, I think.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/19/2005 11:15:38 AM Mountain Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
How funny - they don't do PE in 8th grade? Just 7th? I've never heard
of such a thing.
----
Oh... forgot to say why I thought that was.
Sex ed. They backed it up, I think, rather than wait until the kids are
already likely to be through puberty and sexually active (we were 14-16) and try
to talk to the kids when they're 12/13 instead.
Not sure; guessing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
How funny - they don't do PE in 8th grade? Just 7th? I've never heard
of such a thing.
----
Oh... forgot to say why I thought that was.
Sex ed. They backed it up, I think, rather than wait until the kids are
already likely to be through puberty and sexually active (we were 14-16) and try
to talk to the kids when they're 12/13 instead.
Not sure; guessing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
I'd tell the principal that you have a lot of reservations about
school, but that this is HIS choice and you are supporting it. I'd tell
him/her that you want him to be happy and have a great school
experience and that you'll do your part to make that happen. Then I'd
add to that that you don't intend to undermine teachers and school
officials, but that you will bring him home in a heartbeat if you think
there are things going on that might be harmful to him or if he is
unhappy.
They'll think you're an overprotective mom with a spoiled kid and that
your kid is sensible to try to get away from you for some time. Who
cares what they think? What you want is for them to be just a bit
afraid of you - so that they'll be just a bit more likely to treat him
with special care.
-pam
school, but that this is HIS choice and you are supporting it. I'd tell
him/her that you want him to be happy and have a great school
experience and that you'll do your part to make that happen. Then I'd
add to that that you don't intend to undermine teachers and school
officials, but that you will bring him home in a heartbeat if you think
there are things going on that might be harmful to him or if he is
unhappy.
They'll think you're an overprotective mom with a spoiled kid and that
your kid is sensible to try to get away from you for some time. Who
cares what they think? What you want is for them to be just a bit
afraid of you - so that they'll be just a bit more likely to treat him
with special care.
-pam
On Mar 19, 2005, at 10:14 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
> Also, I would tell the principal straight out that you'd rather keep
> him at
> home and you don't trust the school not to do damage to his psyche and
> self
> esteem, and that if they can keep it to a minimum you'd appreciate it.
> I'd
> tell them you'll be happy to bring him home in a heartbeat if he's
> unhappy, and
> that you're sure he'll really enjoy homeschooling even more when he
> comes
> home.
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 19, 2005, at 10:17 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
during every 10 days (not counting lunch and recess) and public middle
and high schoolers are required to have 400 minutes during every 10
days.
Private schoolers, including homeschoolers, don't have any requirements
of any kind other than to "offer the several branches of study required
to be offered in the public schools."
-pam
> In our district when I was in school, PE was required in 9th and 10th,Public elementary school kids here have to have 200 minutes of PE
> and
> optional from 7th to 12th, if there was room in the classes after the
> required
> kids were in, I think.
during every 10 days (not counting lunch and recess) and public middle
and high schoolers are required to have 400 minutes during every 10
days.
Private schoolers, including homeschoolers, don't have any requirements
of any kind other than to "offer the several branches of study required
to be offered in the public schools."
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/19/2005 11:30:49 AM Mountain Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
I'd tell
him/her that you want him to be happy and have a great school
experience and that you'll do your part to make that happen.
====================
I wouldn't say that, personally. I might say it if I left out "and have a
great school experience."
If you say you'll do your part to make school good, THEY will take it to
mean you'll force homework, provide every $5 or $15 they ask for, dress the kid
exactly to their specifications, bring snacks, work field trips... They
will take it to mean that you will support THEM in all ways, I think.
If Holly goes, I'll help her get there on time. I'll make sure she has
lunch or lunch money. I'll make sure she has school supplies and a backpack she
likes. I wouldn't make her do homework she didn't want to do. I wouldn't
take geraniums to the teacher and hang around and suck up, though.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
I'd tell
him/her that you want him to be happy and have a great school
experience and that you'll do your part to make that happen.
====================
I wouldn't say that, personally. I might say it if I left out "and have a
great school experience."
If you say you'll do your part to make school good, THEY will take it to
mean you'll force homework, provide every $5 or $15 they ask for, dress the kid
exactly to their specifications, bring snacks, work field trips... They
will take it to mean that you will support THEM in all ways, I think.
If Holly goes, I'll help her get there on time. I'll make sure she has
lunch or lunch money. I'll make sure she has school supplies and a backpack she
likes. I wouldn't make her do homework she didn't want to do. I wouldn't
take geraniums to the teacher and hang around and suck up, though.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 20, 2005, at 4:24 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
put things in their own words, but what I meant was to recommend that
the person tell the administrators that their priority is their child
being happy and having a good experience and that THAT is what the
parents would support. As opposed to supporting what the school
administrators might think ought to be their priority - like getting
good grades, perfect attendance, doing all their homework, etc.
I would tell the administrators that my priority was going to be to
support my child's happiness and that I wanted her experience at school
to be good.
I was thinking it was just a little bit of a reminder, maybe even could
be considered a threat, to the administrators that I wasn't going to be
supportive of anything that wasn't making her happy and making the
experience a good one for her.
Hard to know in advance what is likely to come up, though.
I have a friend whose always-radically-unschooled daughter went to 8th
grade. The first day, the parent was called to bring her a change of
clothes - seems the school had a policy that nobody could dress all in
black. Mom was tempted to dress all in black when SHE showed up, but
daughter begged her to hide her indignation and just bring her some
other clothes. A few days later she was in the principal's office
again, they'd decided her daughter's dyed hair was distracting and
wanted her to go home and recolor it to a normal color. Again, the
daughter WANTED to go along, even though mom was willing to fight for
her right to have her hair any color. For the first few weeks of
school, this poor girl accidentally broke several rules (another was
wearing a shirt with a banned logo on it) and the mom wore down a
pathway from their house to the principal's office. The mom did what
the girl wanted, though, just kept going along with things - the girl
really wanted to be there and wanted to manage to get the rules figured
out. The mom didn't make her daughter do homework or anything - just
kept her mouth shut <G> as per her daughter's wishes, which was hard
enough for her.
Another mom I know whose always homeschooled girls went to school had
to insist that the school take care of the ants that had invaded her
daughter's locker. Poor kid wasn't eating her lunch - because she had
to leave it in her locker and it was attacked by ants every day.
-pam
> I'd tellWell - the whole POINT of my wording was the opposite. Everybody will
> him/her that you want him to be happy and have a great school
> experience and that you'll do your part to make that happen.
>
>
> ====================
>
> I wouldn't say that, personally. I might say it if I left out "and
> have a
> great school experience."
>
> If you say you'll do your part to make school good, THEY will take it
> to
> mean you'll force homework, provide every $5 or $15 they ask for,
> dress the kid
> exactly to their specifications, bring snacks, work field trips...
> They
> will take it to mean that you will support THEM in all ways, I think.
put things in their own words, but what I meant was to recommend that
the person tell the administrators that their priority is their child
being happy and having a good experience and that THAT is what the
parents would support. As opposed to supporting what the school
administrators might think ought to be their priority - like getting
good grades, perfect attendance, doing all their homework, etc.
I would tell the administrators that my priority was going to be to
support my child's happiness and that I wanted her experience at school
to be good.
I was thinking it was just a little bit of a reminder, maybe even could
be considered a threat, to the administrators that I wasn't going to be
supportive of anything that wasn't making her happy and making the
experience a good one for her.
Hard to know in advance what is likely to come up, though.
I have a friend whose always-radically-unschooled daughter went to 8th
grade. The first day, the parent was called to bring her a change of
clothes - seems the school had a policy that nobody could dress all in
black. Mom was tempted to dress all in black when SHE showed up, but
daughter begged her to hide her indignation and just bring her some
other clothes. A few days later she was in the principal's office
again, they'd decided her daughter's dyed hair was distracting and
wanted her to go home and recolor it to a normal color. Again, the
daughter WANTED to go along, even though mom was willing to fight for
her right to have her hair any color. For the first few weeks of
school, this poor girl accidentally broke several rules (another was
wearing a shirt with a banned logo on it) and the mom wore down a
pathway from their house to the principal's office. The mom did what
the girl wanted, though, just kept going along with things - the girl
really wanted to be there and wanted to manage to get the rules figured
out. The mom didn't make her daughter do homework or anything - just
kept her mouth shut <G> as per her daughter's wishes, which was hard
enough for her.
Another mom I know whose always homeschooled girls went to school had
to insist that the school take care of the ants that had invaded her
daughter's locker. Poor kid wasn't eating her lunch - because she had
to leave it in her locker and it was attacked by ants every day.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/20/05 10:24:39 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< I would tell the administrators that my priority was going to be to
support my child's happiness and that I wanted her experience at school
to be good. >>
Ah.
You want THEM to make it good.
Looked otherwise the way I read it. Sorry.
-=I was thinking it was just a little bit of a reminder, maybe even could
be considered a threat, to the administrators that I wasn't going to be
supportive of anything that wasn't making her happy and making the
experience a good one for her.-=-
That's what I figured would come from me saying my personal preference was
for her to be home, but SHE wants to go. The next move is theirs. They want
the cash and joy that might come from luring here there and keeping her? They'd
need to work for that.
And they're not used to the non-captive audience.
-=The mom did what
the girl wanted, though, just kept going along with things - the girl
really wanted to be there and wanted to manage to get the rules figured
out. -=-
Seems the school or the mom would've managed to have a written list of
dresscode after the first incident, or maybe BEFORE the first one. Holly's already
read the district's dress code.
Sandra
<< I would tell the administrators that my priority was going to be to
support my child's happiness and that I wanted her experience at school
to be good. >>
Ah.
You want THEM to make it good.
Looked otherwise the way I read it. Sorry.
-=I was thinking it was just a little bit of a reminder, maybe even could
be considered a threat, to the administrators that I wasn't going to be
supportive of anything that wasn't making her happy and making the
experience a good one for her.-=-
That's what I figured would come from me saying my personal preference was
for her to be home, but SHE wants to go. The next move is theirs. They want
the cash and joy that might come from luring here there and keeping her? They'd
need to work for that.
And they're not used to the non-captive audience.
-=The mom did what
the girl wanted, though, just kept going along with things - the girl
really wanted to be there and wanted to manage to get the rules figured
out. -=-
Seems the school or the mom would've managed to have a written list of
dresscode after the first incident, or maybe BEFORE the first one. Holly's already
read the district's dress code.
Sandra
Pam Tellew
**If you tell him WHY you're afraid and what you're afraid of, he might still
want to go, but at least he'll know.***
Makes sense. Finding the way to do it is tricky. I feel like since I've
let him make just about all of his decisions his whole life, he has very
sensitive antennae as to whether I approve or not. What other kids might
perceive as conversation, he perceives as criticism. Have other
unschoolers experienced this?
***
Would you be offended if I suggested he try Fifth Grade instead of
Sixth? I really don't know anything about his "academic skills" except
what you said about his handwriting. I will happily admit that my son's
academic development has been ideosyncratic and "uneven". Middle School
seems so much worse than Grammar School.***
It does, shudder... but that's where he wants to go. I feel like I need to
get a whole lot more understanding of what he thinks he'll be getting out
of this. So far, in my (I hope) gentle probing, I've gotten "yeah, sort of"
answers to questions about needing a larger group of friends and some
independence, wanting to be like everyone else and wanting to be around
kids more. I got a "not really that" to questions about whether he
wondered if he could handle the work.
And I got a solid yes - I'm both devestated by this and glad of it
because it's one I can do something about- when I asked if he was feeling
alone and not accepted in our family. Wow. But this kid springs back. A
couple of days of me really working on my relationship with him, getting to
know him again it feels like and we both feel way more connected. And
that's great (although the six year old suffers! I can never find the
right balance.) But he still says he wants to go to school.
We have many more things to talk about.
***Let him know clearly why YOU chose not to send him to school
and what your concerns are about him going. Be honest. BUT - you can do
that while still honoring HIS opinions - you don't have to (I know you
wouldn't) make him feel like an idiot for wanting to try it out. It is
SO understandable that a kid who has never gone to school might think
that is THE answer if he's feeling out of sorts - socially, especially.
***
Pam, you are so very wise and positive. I think my struggle as an
unschooling mom is ALWAYS about staying positive. And I think that's a
good insight on how the falling out with friends played into this. I also
like your approach about making the school people a little afraid. Should
be easy enough as I was once a sixth grade teacher. Except it won't
be! One thing I'm terrified of is them making him feel bad about his
academic skills, wanting to test him for special ed and all that. Has
anybody here had a kid go to school who was way not at grade level? The
thought of them labeling him...ugh
Thanks everyone, for your help.
Pam T.
want to go, but at least he'll know.***
Makes sense. Finding the way to do it is tricky. I feel like since I've
let him make just about all of his decisions his whole life, he has very
sensitive antennae as to whether I approve or not. What other kids might
perceive as conversation, he perceives as criticism. Have other
unschoolers experienced this?
***
Would you be offended if I suggested he try Fifth Grade instead of
Sixth? I really don't know anything about his "academic skills" except
what you said about his handwriting. I will happily admit that my son's
academic development has been ideosyncratic and "uneven". Middle School
seems so much worse than Grammar School.***
It does, shudder... but that's where he wants to go. I feel like I need to
get a whole lot more understanding of what he thinks he'll be getting out
of this. So far, in my (I hope) gentle probing, I've gotten "yeah, sort of"
answers to questions about needing a larger group of friends and some
independence, wanting to be like everyone else and wanting to be around
kids more. I got a "not really that" to questions about whether he
wondered if he could handle the work.
And I got a solid yes - I'm both devestated by this and glad of it
because it's one I can do something about- when I asked if he was feeling
alone and not accepted in our family. Wow. But this kid springs back. A
couple of days of me really working on my relationship with him, getting to
know him again it feels like and we both feel way more connected. And
that's great (although the six year old suffers! I can never find the
right balance.) But he still says he wants to go to school.
We have many more things to talk about.
***Let him know clearly why YOU chose not to send him to school
and what your concerns are about him going. Be honest. BUT - you can do
that while still honoring HIS opinions - you don't have to (I know you
wouldn't) make him feel like an idiot for wanting to try it out. It is
SO understandable that a kid who has never gone to school might think
that is THE answer if he's feeling out of sorts - socially, especially.
***
Pam, you are so very wise and positive. I think my struggle as an
unschooling mom is ALWAYS about staying positive. And I think that's a
good insight on how the falling out with friends played into this. I also
like your approach about making the school people a little afraid. Should
be easy enough as I was once a sixth grade teacher. Except it won't
be! One thing I'm terrified of is them making him feel bad about his
academic skills, wanting to test him for special ed and all that. Has
anybody here had a kid go to school who was way not at grade level? The
thought of them labeling him...ugh
Thanks everyone, for your help.
Pam T.
Ruth
Has
anybody here had a kid go to school who was way not at grade level?
In the UK you have to go into grades or years as they are here at the age you are so no matter what grade level you are in you are in with everyone your age. My dd was tested - aged 6 -and found to be 2 years below her grade level. Her teacher called me in and looked pityingly at me when I suggested as she is just 6 didn't she think it was all a lot about nothing and told me in front of my dd she would never achieve anything as she "lacked necessary skills and did not retain them when taught." I cried and raged alternatively all the way home and we pulled her out.
Same child different story now.
Ruth
____________________________________________________________________________
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anybody here had a kid go to school who was way not at grade level?
In the UK you have to go into grades or years as they are here at the age you are so no matter what grade level you are in you are in with everyone your age. My dd was tested - aged 6 -and found to be 2 years below her grade level. Her teacher called me in and looked pityingly at me when I suggested as she is just 6 didn't she think it was all a lot about nothing and told me in front of my dd she would never achieve anything as she "lacked necessary skills and did not retain them when taught." I cried and raged alternatively all the way home and we pulled her out.
Same child different story now.
Ruth
____________________________________________________________________________
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Communications' email Anti-Virus service and no known viruses were detected.
____________________________________________________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/22/05 1:20:09 AM, pamtellew@... writes:
<< I feel like since I've
let him make just about all of his decisions his whole life, he has very
sensitive antennae as to whether I approve or not. What other kids might
perceive as conversation, he perceives as criticism. Have other
unschoolers experienced this? >>
But if when he's made his decisions you were offering input (not just sneaky
visceral input, but verbal) then wouldn't he expect and WANT input on this
important decision too?
My kids expect me to remind them of things they might be forgetting, or
factors of which they might've been unaware.
Sandra
<< I feel like since I've
let him make just about all of his decisions his whole life, he has very
sensitive antennae as to whether I approve or not. What other kids might
perceive as conversation, he perceives as criticism. Have other
unschoolers experienced this? >>
But if when he's made his decisions you were offering input (not just sneaky
visceral input, but verbal) then wouldn't he expect and WANT input on this
important decision too?
My kids expect me to remind them of things they might be forgetting, or
factors of which they might've been unaware.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/22/05 4:50:16 AM, grayfamily9@...
writes:
<<
In the UK you have to go into grades or years as they are here at the age you
are so no matter what grade level you are in you are in with everyone your
age. >>
Here they generally (not universally, but commonly) have a three year or so
window. If you're a year and a half younger or older, that's okay UNLESS/until
puberty is an issue. Someone in early or later puberty would be more likely
to have that be taken into consideration. They don't want a small kid bullied
and so wouldn't be as likely to place him "high" nor do they want an already
mature kid with babyish kids (fear of sexual abuse).
That's not talked about outside counsellors' offices and teachers' lounges.
It has to do with fear of legal liability.
Sandra
writes:
<<
In the UK you have to go into grades or years as they are here at the age you
are so no matter what grade level you are in you are in with everyone your
age. >>
Here they generally (not universally, but commonly) have a three year or so
window. If you're a year and a half younger or older, that's okay UNLESS/until
puberty is an issue. Someone in early or later puberty would be more likely
to have that be taken into consideration. They don't want a small kid bullied
and so wouldn't be as likely to place him "high" nor do they want an already
mature kid with babyish kids (fear of sexual abuse).
That's not talked about outside counsellors' offices and teachers' lounges.
It has to do with fear of legal liability.
Sandra