[email protected]

-=-=-=-Unschooling isn't just learning without being taught.
Unschooling is learning without being taught *full time*.

------------------
Unschooling is learning fulltime without being taught.

I want to suggest that clarification because if our definition is being nit-picked, I don't want someone to say "I'm not teaching full time, just part time, so I'm unschooling; Joyce said so."-=-=-=-

Oh, hell! And *I* want to clarify further to say that teaching *can* take place in unschooling...BUT, if the learner has no interest, then learning isn't happening. OR the lesson being learned isn't necessarily the lesson being taught! <g>

I don't want someone to say, "He CAN'T take piano lessons because he CAN'T be taught. That's not unschooling; Sandra said so!" <G>

Teaching *can* happen in unschooling---but NOT without the learning that would accompany it.

Teaching for teaching's sake is NOT unschooling.

Muddier? <g>

~Kelly

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/14/2005 9:10:09 AM Mountain Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

Teaching *can* happen in unschooling---but NOT without the learning that
would accompany it.



-------------

Learning can happen. Sometimes there's a teacher. <g>
If that teacher is the mom, and the mom is giddily proud of it and the child
feels the mom teacher is his source of learning, unschooling is on slippery
ground.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:

>
> Teaching *can* happen in unschooling---but NOT without the learning that would
accompany it.
>
> Teaching for teaching's sake is NOT unschooling.
>
> Muddier? <g>

Could it be that...

Unschooling is learning outside of the structured school system that includes (and is not
limited to) choices to be taught when those lessons are centered in the learner rather than
imposed by a system or parent... ?

Julie

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart" <julie@b...> wrote:
>
> Unschooling is learning outside of the structured school system that includes (and is not
> limited to) choices to be taught when those lessons are centered in the learner rather
than
> imposed by a system or parent... ?

Ack, I want to reword this. Working on definitions is fun for me. :)

Unschooling is a lifestyle of learning that is not governed by a structured school system or
parent, but includes, and is not limited to, choices to be taught as long as that choice is
centered in the learner rather than imposed by a system or authority figure.

I'll be playing with this for the next few days now. Thanks for the philological toy. <g>

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/14/2005 5:47:44 PM Mountain Standard Time,
julie@... writes:

Unschooling is a lifestyle of learning that is not governed by a structured
school system or
parent, but includes, and is not limited to, choices to be taught as long as
that choice is
centered in the learner rather than imposed by a system or authority figure.



------

I like that. I thought of something else, too, that I've never considered
before. Taking guitar lessons isn't a kid thing. It's a human thing.
Adults take guitar lessons. So if someone takes guitar lessons of his own
freewill, he's doing something that he could do at any age. Not so, third grade.
Not so, t-ball. Aikido or dressage or Spanish lessons--also things people
take any age. That makes it a real-world thing, rather than a school- or
kid-thing.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Mar 14, 2005, at 5:21 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Not so, t-ball.

Well - it is a little-kid version of baseball which is definitely an
any-age thing.
Same with other sports.

-pam

Heidi

I like it.

HeidiC
>
> Ack, I want to reword this. Working on definitions is fun for me. :)
>
> Unschooling is a lifestyle of learning that is not governed by a
structured school system or
> parent, but includes, and is not limited to, choices to be taught
as long as that choice is
> centered in the learner rather than imposed by a system or
authority figure.
>
> I'll be playing with this for the next few days now. Thanks for the
philological toy. <g>
>
> Julie

Kerrin or Ralph

> Teaching *can* happen in unschooling---but NOT without the learning that
> would accompany it.


Teaching happens often within unschooling. Whether it's a parent teaching a
child a skill or music lessons or siblings teaching each other things. It's
not the resulting learning that makes it "acceptable" it's the fact that the
child asked for it. For example, my daughter has asked me to teach her how
to tie her shoelaces, so I taught her. She lost interest, so I stopped
teaching her. She didn't learn to tie her shoelaces (yet).

I've just recently gone back to recieving mail from this list after a long
time on nomail. Too busy, travelling etc. I'm glad to be back and really
enjoying the discussions. I think the volume of posts has gone down too, so
I might be able to keep up!

Kerrin.

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/16/05 6:34:33 PM, kerrin@... writes:

<< Teaching happens often within unschooling. Whether it's a parent teaching a

child a skill or music lessons or siblings teaching each other things. It's

not the resulting learning that makes it "acceptable" it's the fact that the

child asked for it. >>

If there is no resulting learning, then what happened?
If the learning isn't what makes it "acceptable," by what measure would it be
worth anything?


-=-For example, my daughter has asked me to teach her how

to tie her shoelaces, so I taught her. She lost interest, so I stopped

teaching her. She didn't learn to tie her shoelaces (yet).-=-

If she didn't learn it, you didn't teach it. You talked and demonstrated and
whatever all else, but if that's teaching, and she didn't learn, it wasn't a
good use of energy, was it?

If you think of it as "I showed her" and "I told her a way to remember it"
that might click inside her at some point, but I wonder that you'd say "I taught
her" when she still can't tie her shoes.

It's tricky. At school, a teacher can show a pile of papers and get a
paycheck.
At home with no paycheck, the question is no longer "did you show up in this
classroom at the appointed hour and do a song and dance?"

Sandra

Kerrin or Ralph

> If there is no resulting learning, then what happened?


Either I didn't come up with the right way to show her, or she wasn't ready
to learn that skill just then.


> If the learning isn't what makes it "acceptable," by what measure would it
be
> worth anything?


We were talking about teaching as part of unschooling. Some people seemed to
think that there couldn't be any teaching if you were unschooling. I was
trying to point out that teaching is ok if the child has asked for it.

My shoelace story was an example of how teaching and learning are not the
same thing, and that learning does not necessarily follow teaching. It
wasn't worth anything. Except maybe the value of my child knowing that if
she asks me to help her with something, I will try.



> If she didn't learn it, you didn't teach it. You talked and demonstrated
and
> whatever all else, but if that's teaching, and she didn't learn, it wasn't
a
> good use of energy, was it?


So are you saying that learning does always follow teaching? I'm sure you
said the opposite in an earlier post. I'm a bit confused! anyway, I'm
thinking!


> If you think of it as "I showed her" and "I told her a way to remember it"
> that might click inside her at some point, but I wonder that you'd say "I
taught
> her" when she still can't tie her shoes.


As I said, it was an example of how "teach" doesn't necessarily produce
"learn".

I agree with you on the wording. I read one of your posts about that just
after I sent mine and thought yes! That's right. I don't generally talk
about teaching. I show, help, tell, whatever, as you say.

However the 1st definition of teach in my dictionary is: To help to learn,
tell or show.


> It's tricky. At school, a teacher can show a pile of papers and get a
> paycheck.
> At home with no paycheck, the question is no longer "did you show up in
this
> classroom at the appointed hour and do a song and dance?"


If only they really did sing and dance! That would be a huge improvement!

Thanks for your comments.

Kerrin.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 16, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Kerrin or Ralph wrote:

> We were talking about teaching as part of unschooling. Some people
> seemed to
> think that there couldn't be any teaching if you were unschooling. I
> was
> trying to point out that teaching is ok if the child has asked for it.

The point you're trying to make is valid. Yes, when kids ask it's okay
to pass on information!

But the word teach carries a lot more images than just showing. It
carries lots of school baggage with it. So to someone who is still
thinking in terms of "learning = school" telling them that teaching is
okay when kids ask, for them it calls up images of sitting them down at
a table and doing something schoolishly formal like a page of math
problems.

One way to help people get unschooling is to help them replace the old
images of learning they have with new ones.

The word "show" doesn't have the schoolish baggage that teach does.
Show doesn't call up images of textbooks and teachers and classrooms
the way teach can.

Show and similar words without schoolish baggage help people imagine
what the process of helping a child with something they're trying to
figure out looks like whether they have schoolish baggage or not. But
teach only helps those without schoolish baggage and sets back the ones
with schoolish baggage.

So, while you're right, it's a lot more helpful to those trying to get
unschooling to describe unschooling without words that call up school
images.

Joyce