Re: How unschooling works---my rant
[email protected]
-=-=-I would agree with you. But I think I would also add though that some people may not have the financial resources or the research skills as parents to help facillitate an exposure to learning outside of the home.<<<<<
I think that's bullshit.
I think *everything* is available---and almost all of it can be acquired at no-to-low cost or at trade or by borrowing or by simply asking. If a parent is unable to think of ways to go about meeting her child's needs and wants, maybe she should put that child in school.
-=-=-=-I believe that this is where we as the people who have the resources, support, and guidance, that it is our job to step up to the plate and help them, as we on this list and on many others have and are doing just that!:)-=-=-=-
No, that's not my job. Not at all. My job is to spend my time and effort to help MY children get those things they need and want. Other parents are responsible to get off their butts and do their own work for their own kids!
We can talk about different ways we go about to achieve these things, but *everyone* has resources and google and libraries. There are local e-groups (and if there isn't, everyone reading here is capable of starting one!) that can help local unschoolers get together and make connections.
I am more than willing to help someone who is just starting out---who is figuring out how to leave school-think behind and start looking at the world through unschooling glasses. But hand-holding can only go so far. Parents really do need to take responsibility in order to unschool. Those with limited abilities, who have no interest in the great big world, who---how did you put it? who "may not have the financial resources or the research skills as parents to help facillitate an exposure to learning outside of the home" ....well, they will probably not make very good unschooling parents.
Part of this job is to make that effort---and in SPADES!
BE. DO. FIND. ASK.
An unschooling parent really does need to be a doer, in my opinion, to be an inspiration to her children. They need to SEE her following passions (hers and her kids') and not floundering and waiting and---oh---and being lazy! I had a mom tell me the other day that she thought she should unschool because she was just too lazy to do the seatwork with her son. :-P~~~* I told her she might want to rethink unschooling. It's NOT for the lazy or the unimaginative or the uninspired. It's just NOT.
~Kelly
I think that's bullshit.
I think *everything* is available---and almost all of it can be acquired at no-to-low cost or at trade or by borrowing or by simply asking. If a parent is unable to think of ways to go about meeting her child's needs and wants, maybe she should put that child in school.
-=-=-=-I believe that this is where we as the people who have the resources, support, and guidance, that it is our job to step up to the plate and help them, as we on this list and on many others have and are doing just that!:)-=-=-=-
No, that's not my job. Not at all. My job is to spend my time and effort to help MY children get those things they need and want. Other parents are responsible to get off their butts and do their own work for their own kids!
We can talk about different ways we go about to achieve these things, but *everyone* has resources and google and libraries. There are local e-groups (and if there isn't, everyone reading here is capable of starting one!) that can help local unschoolers get together and make connections.
I am more than willing to help someone who is just starting out---who is figuring out how to leave school-think behind and start looking at the world through unschooling glasses. But hand-holding can only go so far. Parents really do need to take responsibility in order to unschool. Those with limited abilities, who have no interest in the great big world, who---how did you put it? who "may not have the financial resources or the research skills as parents to help facillitate an exposure to learning outside of the home" ....well, they will probably not make very good unschooling parents.
Part of this job is to make that effort---and in SPADES!
BE. DO. FIND. ASK.
An unschooling parent really does need to be a doer, in my opinion, to be an inspiration to her children. They need to SEE her following passions (hers and her kids') and not floundering and waiting and---oh---and being lazy! I had a mom tell me the other day that she thought she should unschool because she was just too lazy to do the seatwork with her son. :-P~~~* I told her she might want to rethink unschooling. It's NOT for the lazy or the unimaginative or the uninspired. It's just NOT.
~Kelly
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
exposure to learning outside of the home.<<<<<
We've done vintage dance lessons for two kids at once by distributing flyers every week of
the classes (in the snow, no less). We expressed our interest and our financial limitations
and they offered a solution that benefitted us all.
We work as ushers at the local Shakespeare company's performances and attend the entire
series all year for free.
My middle child wanted to go to space camp ($800+) and worked selling cookies in the
neighborhood for two years to *earn his way*. He has continued to earn money (he's 13)
and has purchased for himself an iPod, a Nintendo DS, collectible LOTR books and swors,
and has an eviable CD collection. He also pays for part of his weekly sax lessons and is
saving to go to Costa Rica with AFS. He knows he can go because he knows he can earn
money.
Grandparents kicked in for some of our extra curriculars instead of birthday gifts (like the
first year of Shakespeare camp).
My oldest bought his own car.
We found ballet lessons for a few dollars a week through our church for years.
We've traded tutoring in math for tutoring in writing with another family.
We've had literature groups in our home.
We've worked as counselors in our local homeschool camp to offset the expense of our
kids attending.
These experiences have taught our kids more about the relationship of work to having
what they want than any other method. I'm extremely proud of my kids for their initiative
and their willingness to go the extra mile to make their dreams come true.
(And this is from a mom who was given everything she ever wanted including a brand new
car at 16.)
To me, it's part of the unschooling journey to be able to help our kids imagine that their
dreams can be realized through creativity and personal effort.
Julie B
> -=-=-I would agree with you. But I think I would also add though that some people maynot have the financial resources or the research skills as parents to help facillitate an
exposure to learning outside of the home.<<<<<
>I agree.
> I think that's bullshit.
>or at trade or by borrowing or by simply asking.
> I think *everything* is available---and almost all of it can be acquired at no-to-low cost
We've done vintage dance lessons for two kids at once by distributing flyers every week of
the classes (in the snow, no less). We expressed our interest and our financial limitations
and they offered a solution that benefitted us all.
We work as ushers at the local Shakespeare company's performances and attend the entire
series all year for free.
My middle child wanted to go to space camp ($800+) and worked selling cookies in the
neighborhood for two years to *earn his way*. He has continued to earn money (he's 13)
and has purchased for himself an iPod, a Nintendo DS, collectible LOTR books and swors,
and has an eviable CD collection. He also pays for part of his weekly sax lessons and is
saving to go to Costa Rica with AFS. He knows he can go because he knows he can earn
money.
Grandparents kicked in for some of our extra curriculars instead of birthday gifts (like the
first year of Shakespeare camp).
My oldest bought his own car.
We found ballet lessons for a few dollars a week through our church for years.
We've traded tutoring in math for tutoring in writing with another family.
We've had literature groups in our home.
We've worked as counselors in our local homeschool camp to offset the expense of our
kids attending.
These experiences have taught our kids more about the relationship of work to having
what they want than any other method. I'm extremely proud of my kids for their initiative
and their willingness to go the extra mile to make their dreams come true.
(And this is from a mom who was given everything she ever wanted including a brand new
car at 16.)
To me, it's part of the unschooling journey to be able to help our kids imagine that their
dreams can be realized through creativity and personal effort.
Julie B
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/10/05 2:05:46 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< -=-=-=-I believe that this is where we as the people who have the
resources, support, and guidance, that it is our job to step up to the plate and help
them, as we on this list and on many others have and are doing just
that!:)-=-=-=-
<<No, that's not my job. Not at all. My job is to spend my time and effort to
help MY children get those things they need and want. Other parents are
responsible to get off their butts and do their own work for their own kids! >>
Kelly's right.
She helps people tons, and often, and for free, but that is *not* her "job."
That is her freely-offered gift.
Sandra
<< -=-=-=-I believe that this is where we as the people who have the
resources, support, and guidance, that it is our job to step up to the plate and help
them, as we on this list and on many others have and are doing just
that!:)-=-=-=-
<<No, that's not my job. Not at all. My job is to spend my time and effort to
help MY children get those things they need and want. Other parents are
responsible to get off their butts and do their own work for their own kids! >>
Kelly's right.
She helps people tons, and often, and for free, but that is *not* her "job."
That is her freely-offered gift.
Sandra
Sylvia Toyama
I'm with Kelly & Julie. I think anyone can unschool -- it's not a matter of how much a parent knows today, or how much research they've done in the past, or past education or anything else. I've found that the essential qualities for unschooling is a willingness to question everything, to seek answers until you're satisfied, and then follow your heart, and your children's hearts.
I also agree that if parents just put forth what it would otherwise cost to go to even public school, that's a huge bucket of money. I remember an article in our local newspaper last August about the high cost of getting the kids back to school. The estimate was that parents spend $170 just on the backpack and supplies to fill it. For uniforms, or new seasonable clothes, add another $350. Then you have to replenish school supplies throughout the year. School lunch costs $10 a week (that was in '01 when we last had one in school).
We spend about $200 on zoo and museum memberships every year, and that's for the whole family. I probably spend $60 a month on fuel for my car that could be saved if the boys walked to school, but then again if they were in school, I'd use that fuel driving to a job because there'd be no point in staying home. We buy new clothes on clearance after the school year starts, much less expensively. My kids wear flip-flops by choice virtually year-round -- can't do that in school. For school you need sneakers every few months, at $15 a pair (if they'll still wear cheap shoes in school). Flip flops cost $3 a pair. I can certainly feed them lunch every day for less than $10 a week each. Field trips are included in the museum memberships, so no extra expense there.
Even tho unschooling can be less expensive than public school, it's unrealistic to think being a parent won't cost money.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I also agree that if parents just put forth what it would otherwise cost to go to even public school, that's a huge bucket of money. I remember an article in our local newspaper last August about the high cost of getting the kids back to school. The estimate was that parents spend $170 just on the backpack and supplies to fill it. For uniforms, or new seasonable clothes, add another $350. Then you have to replenish school supplies throughout the year. School lunch costs $10 a week (that was in '01 when we last had one in school).
We spend about $200 on zoo and museum memberships every year, and that's for the whole family. I probably spend $60 a month on fuel for my car that could be saved if the boys walked to school, but then again if they were in school, I'd use that fuel driving to a job because there'd be no point in staying home. We buy new clothes on clearance after the school year starts, much less expensively. My kids wear flip-flops by choice virtually year-round -- can't do that in school. For school you need sneakers every few months, at $15 a pair (if they'll still wear cheap shoes in school). Flip flops cost $3 a pair. I can certainly feed them lunch every day for less than $10 a week each. Field trips are included in the museum memberships, so no extra expense there.
Even tho unschooling can be less expensive than public school, it's unrealistic to think being a parent won't cost money.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/10/2005 4:43:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
sylgt04@... writes:
-=-I'm with Kelly & Julie. I think anyone can unschool -- it's not a matter
of how much a parent knows today, or how much research they've done in the
past, or past education or anything else. -=-
=============
Are you sure they were saying anyone can unschool?
It's not important what the parent knows or how much research they HAVE
done, but do they have the ability to do it now, and learn now? There are other
things too; other elements need to be in place to be made to make it work
really well.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sylgt04@... writes:
-=-I'm with Kelly & Julie. I think anyone can unschool -- it's not a matter
of how much a parent knows today, or how much research they've done in the
past, or past education or anything else. -=-
=============
Are you sure they were saying anyone can unschool?
It's not important what the parent knows or how much research they HAVE
done, but do they have the ability to do it now, and learn now? There are other
things too; other elements need to be in place to be made to make it work
really well.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
Are you sure they were saying anyone can unschool?
It's not important what the parent knows or how much research they HAVE done, but do they have the ability to do it now, and learn now? There are other things too; other elements need to be in place to be made to make it work really well.
Sandra
****
I do think anyone can, but only if they are willing, committed really, to doing it. Once a parent is determined to figure out how to make it work, they'll find the things they need to make it happen. Without a conviction that it can be done, and that we'll keep trying until we get it right, it may take too long for the kids to benefit.
I suppose there are people whose situation -- disagreeable ex or something like that -- simply can't truly unschool, but most people give up on unschooling just because they weren't willing to try hard enough. Kinda like those who give up on nursing because it gets hard at the first growth spurt, or who hate to hit their kid but never bother to look for a better answer. I agree that there are many qualities required to make unschooling work, and lots of folks don't bother to find in themselves what it takes. That's not to say they couldn't do it -- they just don't make it happen.
Then again, I'm not in a really generous head space today -- underslept, kid in a (heavy)leg cast, grief from my family, etc. I tend to feel if one can't make it work, one just didn't want it enough.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's not important what the parent knows or how much research they HAVE done, but do they have the ability to do it now, and learn now? There are other things too; other elements need to be in place to be made to make it work really well.
Sandra
****
I do think anyone can, but only if they are willing, committed really, to doing it. Once a parent is determined to figure out how to make it work, they'll find the things they need to make it happen. Without a conviction that it can be done, and that we'll keep trying until we get it right, it may take too long for the kids to benefit.
I suppose there are people whose situation -- disagreeable ex or something like that -- simply can't truly unschool, but most people give up on unschooling just because they weren't willing to try hard enough. Kinda like those who give up on nursing because it gets hard at the first growth spurt, or who hate to hit their kid but never bother to look for a better answer. I agree that there are many qualities required to make unschooling work, and lots of folks don't bother to find in themselves what it takes. That's not to say they couldn't do it -- they just don't make it happen.
Then again, I'm not in a really generous head space today -- underslept, kid in a (heavy)leg cast, grief from my family, etc. I tend to feel if one can't make it work, one just didn't want it enough.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I totally agree with the "if you want it you can get it" attitude. When my husband and I discussed goals we had for our children, number one on that list was to be free thinkers. Neither of us came from wealthy backgrounds, although mine was not deprived either, but we have now achieved a healthy lifestyle for our 8 children though creativity and hard work.
We've never let anyone tell us we CAN'T do anything! Experiences and money are out there. You just have to think outside the box.
This attitude has lead us to unschooling because we don't want our kids to be sheep. I saw a day care class os 2yo's in the food store with their hands wrapped around a loop in a rope. I couldn't help but think to myself that my kids could never be lead that easily. They want to explore and touch and ask questions and it's my job to answer them! We encourage their creativity and with that hope they'll never waste our most valuable resource-TIME.
Sadie
We've never let anyone tell us we CAN'T do anything! Experiences and money are out there. You just have to think outside the box.
This attitude has lead us to unschooling because we don't want our kids to be sheep. I saw a day care class os 2yo's in the food store with their hands wrapped around a loop in a rope. I couldn't help but think to myself that my kids could never be lead that easily. They want to explore and touch and ask questions and it's my job to answer them! We encourage their creativity and with that hope they'll never waste our most valuable resource-TIME.
Sadie
Nichole
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
=============
There are other
things too; other elements need to be in place to be made to make it work
really well.
Sandra
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In a nut-shell or elaborately what are those elements?
* trusting your child to learn what she needs when she needs it
* ability and desire to show your children the world through living a rich and interesting life
* a deep respect for your child as an individual, regarding her as a whole human being right now
* ability and desire to learn every day, to try new things, and go new places, meet new people
What else? I bet you have a post or two on this, Sandra.
Thanks,
Nichole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jimpetersonl
Came across this the other day:
EVERYONE unschools.
Some people get to do it full time.
~Sue
EVERYONE unschools.
Some people get to do it full time.
~Sue
> -=-I'm with Kelly & Julie. I think anyone can unschool -- it's nota matter
> of how much a parent knows today, or how much research they've donein the
> past, or past education or anything else. -=-HAVE
>
>
> =============
>
> Are you sure they were saying anyone can unschool?
>
> It's not important what the parent knows or how much research they
> done, but do they have the ability to do it now, and learn now?There are other
> things too; other elements need to be in place to be made to make itwork
> really well.
>
> Sandra
>
>S1222irn
Pam Sorooshian
Huh?
-pam
-pam
On Mar 13, 2005, at 12:22 PM, jimpetersonl wrote:
> Came across this the other day:
>
> EVERYONE unschools.
> Some people get to do it full time.
>
> ~Sue
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/13/2005 5:45:56 PM Central Standard Time,
jimpetersonl@... writes:
EVERYONE unschools.
Some people get to do it full time.
~~~
I think that's baloney, frankly.
Any kid in school is not unschooling.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jimpetersonl@... writes:
EVERYONE unschools.
Some people get to do it full time.
~~~
I think that's baloney, frankly.
Any kid in school is not unschooling.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 13, 2005, at 6:31 PM, tuckervill2@... wrote:
things that I didn't really want to put into writing! <G>
And - most homeschooling kids are not unschooling, either.
-pam
> I think that's baloney, frankly.Baloney! That's the word I was looking for - I kept coming up with
>
> Any kid in school is not unschooling.
things that I didn't really want to put into writing! <G>
And - most homeschooling kids are not unschooling, either.
-pam
jimpetersonl
Do you mean that no kid in school ever learns anything at all on
his/her own?
Really?
Those of us (most of us on this list, I'd imagine) who were schooled
as children have never unschooled ourselves? Were uncapable of
learning anything on our own?
I don't think that's true.
I do believe that eveyone--EVERYONE--unschools. I just think a
lot--MOST--people get stuck wasting a lot of time in school.
~Sue
his/her own?
Really?
Those of us (most of us on this list, I'd imagine) who were schooled
as children have never unschooled ourselves? Were uncapable of
learning anything on our own?
I don't think that's true.
I do believe that eveyone--EVERYONE--unschools. I just think a
lot--MOST--people get stuck wasting a lot of time in school.
~Sue
> EVERYONE unschools.
> Some people get to do it full time.
> ~~~
> I think that's baloney, frankly.
> Any kid in school is not unschooling.
> Karen
jimpetersonl
What do you offer as proof?
~Sue
~Sue
> > I think that's baloney, frankly.
> > Any kid in school is not unschooling.
>
> Baloney! That's the word I was looking for - I kept coming up with
> things that I didn't really want to put into writing! <G>
>
> And - most homeschooling kids are not unschooling, either.
>
> -pam
Heidi
well, a kid isn't unschooling while in school...unless he's drawing
pictures of inventions under the cover of his English book, or
reading the Hobbit on her lap under the desk while the teacher goes
on about fractions...
mind you, I know they're not really free, and will maybe get in
trouble if the teacher catches them, but when a person "finds
learning" in whatever he's doing, even after school hours or in his
daydreams during school hours...isn't that a sort of unschooling?
blessings, HeidiC
pictures of inventions under the cover of his English book, or
reading the Hobbit on her lap under the desk while the teacher goes
on about fractions...
mind you, I know they're not really free, and will maybe get in
trouble if the teacher catches them, but when a person "finds
learning" in whatever he's doing, even after school hours or in his
daydreams during school hours...isn't that a sort of unschooling?
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 3/13/2005 5:45:56 PM Central Standard Time,
> jimpetersonl@h... writes:
>
> EVERYONE unschools.
> Some people get to do it full time.
>
>
>
> ~~~
> I think that's baloney, frankly.
>
> Any kid in school is not unschooling.
>
> Karen
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/13/2005 4:45:57 PM Mountain Standard Time,
jimpetersonl@... writes:
EVERYONE unschools.
Some people get to do it full time.
-------------------
It doesn't play out logically.
Everyone learns.
Some people get to dedicate their lives to doing it freely.
EVERYONE unschools.
Some people get to do it full time.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jimpetersonl@... writes:
EVERYONE unschools.
Some people get to do it full time.
-------------------
It doesn't play out logically.
Everyone learns.
Some people get to dedicate their lives to doing it freely.
EVERYONE unschools.
Some people get to do it full time.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Sorry the other post went prematurely.
Here's how it doesn't work:
EVERYONE is vegetarian.
Some people get to do it full time.
(No, a meat eater having a salad doesn't become vegetarian until the next
time.)
EVERYONE is free.
Some people get to do it full time.
(No, people in prison aren't free; people in school aren't free.)
EVERY spouse is faithful.
Some get to do it full time.
(Sometimes isn't good enough.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here's how it doesn't work:
EVERYONE is vegetarian.
Some people get to do it full time.
(No, a meat eater having a salad doesn't become vegetarian until the next
time.)
EVERYONE is free.
Some people get to do it full time.
(No, people in prison aren't free; people in school aren't free.)
EVERY spouse is faithful.
Some get to do it full time.
(Sometimes isn't good enough.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/13/2005 9:54:38 PM Mountain Standard Time,
jimpetersonl@... writes:
Do you mean that no kid in school ever learns anything at all on
his/her own?
---------------------
Reading under the desk while you're supposed to be doing math isn't
unschooling.
It is learning.
Staying in and doing art instead of going to the cafeteria at school isn't
unschooling.
It might be learning, but it's not unschooling.
I learned a lot despite school.
My kids learn a lot without school.
Those aren't the same thing at any level.
-=-I do believe that eveyone--EVERYONE--unschools. -=-
Then your definition of unschooling won't be very useful for discussions of
how people can become unschoolers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jimpetersonl@... writes:
Do you mean that no kid in school ever learns anything at all on
his/her own?
---------------------
Reading under the desk while you're supposed to be doing math isn't
unschooling.
It is learning.
Staying in and doing art instead of going to the cafeteria at school isn't
unschooling.
It might be learning, but it's not unschooling.
I learned a lot despite school.
My kids learn a lot without school.
Those aren't the same thing at any level.
-=-I do believe that eveyone--EVERYONE--unschools. -=-
Then your definition of unschooling won't be very useful for discussions of
how people can become unschoolers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/13/2005 10:13:22 PM Mountain Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
mind you, I know they're not really free, and will maybe get in
trouble if the teacher catches them, but when a person "finds
learning" in whatever he's doing, even after school hours or in his
daydreams during school hours...isn't that a sort of unschooling?
------------------------------------------------------------
It's learning. Probably most of the people on this list were schooled AND
learned on the side, during, around, on top of school. Still schooled.
Things change when the school is entirely out of the picture.
When people are encouraged to leave parts of school IN the picture,
unschooling is diluted and doesn't work as well as it could.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
mind you, I know they're not really free, and will maybe get in
trouble if the teacher catches them, but when a person "finds
learning" in whatever he's doing, even after school hours or in his
daydreams during school hours...isn't that a sort of unschooling?
------------------------------------------------------------
It's learning. Probably most of the people on this list were schooled AND
learned on the side, during, around, on top of school. Still schooled.
Things change when the school is entirely out of the picture.
When people are encouraged to leave parts of school IN the picture,
unschooling is diluted and doesn't work as well as it could.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 13, 2005, at 8:50 PM, jimpetersonl wrote:
If you just mean to say that people who go to school also learn outside
of school, then I think that is self-evident.
But unschooling is a radically different kind of life - it doesn't
refer to the learning that occurs outside of or in spite of school - it
means learning without schooling at all. It means rejecting
conventional education altogether - not doing it in a brick-and-mortar
school and not doing it at home, either.
This list exists to help people understand unschooling in as much depth
as they can and the assertion that "everybody unschools" is confusing
and not helpful.
We could use it as a springboard, though, to talk about how unschooling
is, in fact, different than any schooled student learning what he/she
can in spite of and outside of school.
What makes unschooling different is that the kids are not being told by
ANYBODY what to learn, when to learn, how to learn. They're also not
being tested or assessed by anybody. Unschooled kids are not learning
the "real" lessons of school. They're not learning that they need
somebody else to tell them what to learn and how to learn. They're not
learning that their interests are less valuable than what the teacher
says is important. They're not learning to work on somebody else's
timetable. They're not learning to memorize instead of understand so
that they can repeat back on the test exactly what the teacher has told
them. They're not learning that "math is torture," "history is boring,"
"writing is painful," and on and on. AND the most important thing they
are not learning is "learning is hard not very pleasurable" and that it
has to be coerced.
-pam
> What do you offer as proof?I offer the meaning of the word itself. Unschooling is "not schooling."
>
> ~Sue
If you just mean to say that people who go to school also learn outside
of school, then I think that is self-evident.
But unschooling is a radically different kind of life - it doesn't
refer to the learning that occurs outside of or in spite of school - it
means learning without schooling at all. It means rejecting
conventional education altogether - not doing it in a brick-and-mortar
school and not doing it at home, either.
This list exists to help people understand unschooling in as much depth
as they can and the assertion that "everybody unschools" is confusing
and not helpful.
We could use it as a springboard, though, to talk about how unschooling
is, in fact, different than any schooled student learning what he/she
can in spite of and outside of school.
What makes unschooling different is that the kids are not being told by
ANYBODY what to learn, when to learn, how to learn. They're also not
being tested or assessed by anybody. Unschooled kids are not learning
the "real" lessons of school. They're not learning that they need
somebody else to tell them what to learn and how to learn. They're not
learning that their interests are less valuable than what the teacher
says is important. They're not learning to work on somebody else's
timetable. They're not learning to memorize instead of understand so
that they can repeat back on the test exactly what the teacher has told
them. They're not learning that "math is torture," "history is boring,"
"writing is painful," and on and on. AND the most important thing they
are not learning is "learning is hard not very pleasurable" and that it
has to be coerced.
-pam
jimpetersonl
This doesn't hold up logically because the premises are false.
Everyone is not a vegetarian.
A better premise would be Everyone eats.
Some people are able to be full time vegetarians.
Everyone is not free.
Nor are all spouses faithful.
~Sue
Everyone is not a vegetarian.
A better premise would be Everyone eats.
Some people are able to be full time vegetarians.
Everyone is not free.
Nor are all spouses faithful.
~Sue
> Sorry the other post went prematurely.next
>
> Here's how it doesn't work:
>
>
> EVERYONE is vegetarian.
> Some people get to do it full time.
> (No, a meat eater having a salad doesn't become vegetarian until the
> time.)
>
> EVERYONE is free.
> Some people get to do it full time.
> (No, people in prison aren't free; people in school aren't free.)
>
> EVERY spouse is faithful.
> Some get to do it full time.
> (Sometimes isn't good enough.)
>
> Sandra
jimpetersonl
-=-I do believe that eveyone--EVERYONE--unschools. -=-
If I want to explain how to do something unfamiliar (in this case,
unschooling fulltime) is done, I would begin with the familiar.
We all learned to walk, to talk, to crawl . . . and while that didn't
happen in a vacuum, it certainly demonstrates unschooling.
Likewise, most people can pin point something in their lives that
sparked their interest and that they sought out information on in
order to teach themselves and develop new skills. That's unschooling,
too.
That we can provide our children the opprotunity to unschool full time
does not preclude that everyone has done it.
~Sue
>discussions of
> Then your definition of unschooling won't be very useful for
> how people can become unschoolers.Why not?
>
> Sandra
If I want to explain how to do something unfamiliar (in this case,
unschooling fulltime) is done, I would begin with the familiar.
We all learned to walk, to talk, to crawl . . . and while that didn't
happen in a vacuum, it certainly demonstrates unschooling.
Likewise, most people can pin point something in their lives that
sparked their interest and that they sought out information on in
order to teach themselves and develop new skills. That's unschooling,
too.
That we can provide our children the opprotunity to unschool full time
does not preclude that everyone has done it.
~Sue
Pam Sorooshian
You said everyone unschools.
That is a false premise just like saying "everyone is vegetarian" is a
false premise.
That was Sandra's point.
Why do you insist that people who go to school are also unschooling?
Do you have children being schooled whom you want to refer to
unschoolers for some reason? Is broadening the meaning of unschooling
to include even kids who go to school something that is important to
you personally?
-pam
That is a false premise just like saying "everyone is vegetarian" is a
false premise.
That was Sandra's point.
Why do you insist that people who go to school are also unschooling?
Do you have children being schooled whom you want to refer to
unschoolers for some reason? Is broadening the meaning of unschooling
to include even kids who go to school something that is important to
you personally?
-pam
On Mar 14, 2005, at 12:00 AM, jimpetersonl wrote:
> This doesn't hold up logically because the premises are false.
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 14, 2005, at 12:05 AM, jimpetersonl wrote:
people "get" the idea of unschooling - but it isn't unschooling.
spite of school, but it isn't unschooling. To point to those
occurrences is a good way to help people realize that learning CAN
happen outside of school, but just because people do learn things
outside of school doesn't mean they are unschooling.
DOES preclude unschooling.
Unschooled children are free FROM schooling. Kids who are schooled are
not free from schooling.
-pam
> If I want to explain how to do something unfamiliar (in this case,It demonstrates natural learning. We all use these examples to help
> unschooling fulltime) is done, I would begin with the familiar.
>
> We all learned to walk, to talk, to crawl . . . and while that didn't
> happen in a vacuum, it certainly demonstrates unschooling.
people "get" the idea of unschooling - but it isn't unschooling.
>No it isn't unschooling. It is them learning outside of school or in
> Likewise, most people can pin point something in their lives that
> sparked their interest and that they sought out information on in
> order to teach themselves and develop new skills. That's unschooling,
> too.
spite of school, but it isn't unschooling. To point to those
occurrences is a good way to help people realize that learning CAN
happen outside of school, but just because people do learn things
outside of school doesn't mean they are unschooling.
>You can't go to school and unschool at the same time. Going to school
> That we can provide our children the opprotunity to unschool full time
> does not preclude that everyone has done it.
DOES preclude unschooling.
Unschooled children are free FROM schooling. Kids who are schooled are
not free from schooling.
-pam
Ruth
I was schooled not unschooled. I saw school as a interrupton to my life and spent hours out of it doing my own projects, interests and hobbies. That was not unschooled. It was school with a life outside it that I wanted to have all the time and couldn't. My kids are unschooled. They do not go to school ( two have never been some went for a very short time)and we do not homeschool.
Ruth
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 13, 2005, at 11:50 PM, jimpetersonl wrote:
Everyone learns things without being taught.
Some get to do it full time.
And they call that unschooling.
Unschooling isn't just learning without being taught.
Unschooling is learning without being taught *full time*.
Kids who learn things outside of school are being taught math and
reading and history. It's pretty easy to believe that the learning of
older kids that happens outside of school wouldn't be possible without
much of what's being taught in school. It's hard to understand how kids
can learn to read and do math without being taught. It's hard to
understand how kids can learn what they'd get in high school without
being taught. (Which they can't. They're on a different track.)
Learning without any schooling is the essence of unschooling.
Joyce
> Do you mean that no kid in school ever learns anything at all onAnd it's accurate to say:
> his/her own?
Everyone learns things without being taught.
Some get to do it full time.
And they call that unschooling.
Unschooling isn't just learning without being taught.
Unschooling is learning without being taught *full time*.
Kids who learn things outside of school are being taught math and
reading and history. It's pretty easy to believe that the learning of
older kids that happens outside of school wouldn't be possible without
much of what's being taught in school. It's hard to understand how kids
can learn to read and do math without being taught. It's hard to
understand how kids can learn what they'd get in high school without
being taught. (Which they can't. They're on a different track.)
Learning without any schooling is the essence of unschooling.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/13/2005 10:55:18 PM Central Standard Time,
jimpetersonl@... writes:
Do you mean that no kid in school ever learns anything at all on
his/her own?
Really?
~~~
You're defining unschooling so vaguely as to render it meaningless.
Babies and dogs and organutans are unschooling, by your definition.
All growth is learning. But unschooling doesn't exist without the presence
of school. A person who might otherwise be in school but isn't--and then
spends the rest of their time doing things that aren't like school, but learning
anyway, is unschooling. A baby is not unschooling because there are no
schools for babies.
I see the danger in defining unschooling too narrowly, as well. But
EVERYONE is unschooling is far, far to broad, and I don't find a single thing that
rings true in the statement.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jimpetersonl@... writes:
Do you mean that no kid in school ever learns anything at all on
his/her own?
Really?
~~~
You're defining unschooling so vaguely as to render it meaningless.
Babies and dogs and organutans are unschooling, by your definition.
All growth is learning. But unschooling doesn't exist without the presence
of school. A person who might otherwise be in school but isn't--and then
spends the rest of their time doing things that aren't like school, but learning
anyway, is unschooling. A baby is not unschooling because there are no
schools for babies.
I see the danger in defining unschooling too narrowly, as well. But
EVERYONE is unschooling is far, far to broad, and I don't find a single thing that
rings true in the statement.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
Unschooling as a descriptive term means the absence of school. If one is being schooled, either at home or a school, then one isn't unschooling.
Sylvia
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Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[email protected]
In a message dated 3/14/2005 1:36:04 AM Mountain Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
You can't go to school and unschool at the same time. Going to school
DOES preclude unschooling.
Unschooled children are free FROM schooling. Kids who are schooled are
not free from schooling.
When I spent my own little-kid money to order a Rocky and Bullwinkle
electronic quiz game (punch card on a circuit board and if you stuck the pin in the
right hole the light bulb lit up), I was aware that I was learning outside of
school. I knew that some of the things I was learning would come up in
school and some would not, so even as I was learning for fun, I was checking off
in my head what was and wasn't "school stuff." One of the cards was about
currency in different countries: yen, lira, peso. That was fun, and useful
to know my entire life. But I was deeply and thoroughly in school. I was
learning lots under the desk and before and after, and I had 40 minutes every
afternoon before my bus came (2nd trip) so I could go to the public library or
the school library, and did, and read them up. I wasn't an unschooler.
It did add to my confidence that learning for fun is not only possible, but
inevitable if the fun is pervasive. If it can happen with school hogging up
a big chunk of the time, focus and energy, how much better it can work MINUS
the school, without the school, UNschooled.
When school is gone, life is left.
Unschooling isn't what's between the lockers at school, or happening in the
five minute passing periods.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
You can't go to school and unschool at the same time. Going to school
DOES preclude unschooling.
Unschooled children are free FROM schooling. Kids who are schooled are
not free from schooling.
When I spent my own little-kid money to order a Rocky and Bullwinkle
electronic quiz game (punch card on a circuit board and if you stuck the pin in the
right hole the light bulb lit up), I was aware that I was learning outside of
school. I knew that some of the things I was learning would come up in
school and some would not, so even as I was learning for fun, I was checking off
in my head what was and wasn't "school stuff." One of the cards was about
currency in different countries: yen, lira, peso. That was fun, and useful
to know my entire life. But I was deeply and thoroughly in school. I was
learning lots under the desk and before and after, and I had 40 minutes every
afternoon before my bus came (2nd trip) so I could go to the public library or
the school library, and did, and read them up. I wasn't an unschooler.
It did add to my confidence that learning for fun is not only possible, but
inevitable if the fun is pervasive. If it can happen with school hogging up
a big chunk of the time, focus and energy, how much better it can work MINUS
the school, without the school, UNschooled.
When school is gone, life is left.
Unschooling isn't what's between the lockers at school, or happening in the
five minute passing periods.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
This doesn't hold up logically because the premises are false.
****
It's your premise that's false.
Sandra's comparison that everyone learns is more accurate.
Not all learning outside of a school building or agenda is unschooling.
Unschooling is learning entirely free of schools or agendas.
If someone is learning while in an unstructured moment outside of school, but will be returning to school as part of their everyday life, then they're not unschooling.
Sylvia
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****
It's your premise that's false.
Sandra's comparison that everyone learns is more accurate.
Not all learning outside of a school building or agenda is unschooling.
Unschooling is learning entirely free of schools or agendas.
If someone is learning while in an unstructured moment outside of school, but will be returning to school as part of their everyday life, then they're not unschooling.
Sylvia
__________________________________________________
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