YES, how unschooling works
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/6/05 10:24:13 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< When there was a winter festival at a nearby farm, I tried to get all
my kids to go. They all said no, anso we didn'
Zt go. I could've
gone by myself, but when I seriously considered it, I realized that I
didn't really want to go for myself. I wanted to go for them. I
thought it would have neat stuff to "expose" them to. After the
festival was over there was a story and pictures in the paper about
it, and I felt a pang of "Darn, I wish we could've gone", and again
realized that I wouldn't have felt that if I didn't have kids. >>
But you wouldn't be homeschooling if you didn't have kids.
I think the "do nothing" CAN be too strong, and kids who are spared having to
go to school 180 days can do SOME things out of the house in the name of
actively living and learning.
-=- I really think it was a bit of schooly "expose them to a lot of
educational things" kind of feeling that still pops up every once in
awhile. -=-
I think it SHOULD pop up once in a while, maybe without the "educational"
emphasis, but learning happens from exposure, and if people neglect to expose,
that's pretty heavy on the "neglect" end of the balance.
-=-I wasn't so much attracted to taking them to the festival
because of anything there that I thought would particularly interest
any one of them. It was just that it was a "good experience" that I
wanted to "expose" them to. It would make me feel like a good, well-
rounded unschooler. And it would make me feel "normal", like I go
lots of cool places with my kids like everyone else. -=-
It would have been doing something together, too, that would make memories
and probably be a springboard to other connections, activities and discussions.
-=-It's easier to explain unschooling to friends/relatives when you can
tell them about theatre productions and festivals and museums that
you went to, because all that sounds very "educational" and
impressive.-=-
It also is being involved in your community, and that's not a school thing,
that's a good-human thing.
-=- In my state, it also makes good fodder for the
portfolio. But when your homebody kids stay home and read and cook
and play video games and watch tv and play, and it seems that every
time you tell them about what your kids are doing it's the same
thing, you feel a pressure to be "exposing them" to more so that you
sound more impressive. -=-
If I couldn't inspire my kids to get up and out through my own personal
magnetism and salesmanship, I would go to Plan B which would be to say "It's good
to do something that relatives and the government will see as educational
activity, and going to a festival looks good on the portfolio, and I can assure you
it's better than ANY day at school, so put your shoes on and get a jacket and
let's go have fun!"
-=-I know that it's not the same old thing every
day and that they learn and do interesting stuff all the time but to
other people who don't get unshcooling, it sounds like the same old
thing sometimes I think. -=-
If it IS the same old thing, sliding down into a hole of immobility and the
family gets in the habit of NOT going out and NOT finding interesting things in
the community, that's not optimal unschooling.
Couples even without kids get that way sometimes, to the point that they're
not going to parties anymore, not inviting people over anymore, and soon it's
just the same thing all the time and they've become immobilized and stuck.
Stuck isn't a learning place.
If someone's own home is a hive of activity and people are coming in and out
all the time, the hours outside aren't as important, but if the child is still
and the mom is feeling uncomfortable, those are signs to MOVE.
In the past week, Kirby has played a new Star Wars video game for over 55
hours. He also went to work three times, class four times, karate for three
hours, visited a friend LATE after work Saturday, and ran a long D&D session last
night at our house. That was as full a week as I've ever seen him have when
he wasn't out of town or at a gaming convention. He hardly slept. He'll be
up again and off to class within an hour. He eats at the desk or at work, and
that's a very, very busy week.
Yesterday Marty took three friends to Explora, a hands-on museum for kids,
mostly science and math, but not all. The three friends hadn't been before.
Marty got them in on our family membership, though he was prepared to pay their
way out of his own money if the desk had said no about the "family." Those
other three, none homeschoolers) are Leif, who has a college degree and is
probably 25 years old, Ed who's 21 and a part-time college student, though he has
a GOOD job with a security clearance, and Ryan, who's barely 21 and my
favorite of all their friends. Marty is 16. They followed Marty's
recommendation that it's a really great place to go, got there about 2:00 in the afternoon
and stayed until it closed. Last night they were all in Kirby's D&D game,
and today Marty and Holly are watching another disc of Buffy with their
Buffy-watching-partner-homeschooler friend, Julie.
If the kids get used to going and doing, when they get older you won't have
to be their organizer or their driver.
If you can't get a young child up and going, you will probably not get a teen
up and going. SELL the world as a happy place, and to do that you need to
SEE the world as a happy place full of things worth getting some shoes and a
coat on and taking pains (not just when it's easy) to GET OUT THERE. Make it fun
when you do go. Play music in the car, stop and feed ducks, have a nice
lunch packed if you can't afford to go out, stop at a good place to eat it.
Treat your child as an honored guest you just can't WAIT to show something cool.
Letting kids decide to "do nothing" (though I don't think it's "nothing")
isn't good unschooling. Providing more choices for them, and more input and more
opportunity is the duty of anyone who wants to say "I'm unschooling." It
truly does need to be a "doing," an action, a life lived purposefully and richly,
not just a hiding-out from school. It SHOULD be so rich that anyone who
hears stories is impressed and understands it.
For anyone new who might not know about this collection of typial days (or
for longtime readers who just haven't seen it for a while), here:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
Sandra
<< When there was a winter festival at a nearby farm, I tried to get all
my kids to go. They all said no, anso we didn'
Zt go. I could've
gone by myself, but when I seriously considered it, I realized that I
didn't really want to go for myself. I wanted to go for them. I
thought it would have neat stuff to "expose" them to. After the
festival was over there was a story and pictures in the paper about
it, and I felt a pang of "Darn, I wish we could've gone", and again
realized that I wouldn't have felt that if I didn't have kids. >>
But you wouldn't be homeschooling if you didn't have kids.
I think the "do nothing" CAN be too strong, and kids who are spared having to
go to school 180 days can do SOME things out of the house in the name of
actively living and learning.
-=- I really think it was a bit of schooly "expose them to a lot of
educational things" kind of feeling that still pops up every once in
awhile. -=-
I think it SHOULD pop up once in a while, maybe without the "educational"
emphasis, but learning happens from exposure, and if people neglect to expose,
that's pretty heavy on the "neglect" end of the balance.
-=-I wasn't so much attracted to taking them to the festival
because of anything there that I thought would particularly interest
any one of them. It was just that it was a "good experience" that I
wanted to "expose" them to. It would make me feel like a good, well-
rounded unschooler. And it would make me feel "normal", like I go
lots of cool places with my kids like everyone else. -=-
It would have been doing something together, too, that would make memories
and probably be a springboard to other connections, activities and discussions.
-=-It's easier to explain unschooling to friends/relatives when you can
tell them about theatre productions and festivals and museums that
you went to, because all that sounds very "educational" and
impressive.-=-
It also is being involved in your community, and that's not a school thing,
that's a good-human thing.
-=- In my state, it also makes good fodder for the
portfolio. But when your homebody kids stay home and read and cook
and play video games and watch tv and play, and it seems that every
time you tell them about what your kids are doing it's the same
thing, you feel a pressure to be "exposing them" to more so that you
sound more impressive. -=-
If I couldn't inspire my kids to get up and out through my own personal
magnetism and salesmanship, I would go to Plan B which would be to say "It's good
to do something that relatives and the government will see as educational
activity, and going to a festival looks good on the portfolio, and I can assure you
it's better than ANY day at school, so put your shoes on and get a jacket and
let's go have fun!"
-=-I know that it's not the same old thing every
day and that they learn and do interesting stuff all the time but to
other people who don't get unshcooling, it sounds like the same old
thing sometimes I think. -=-
If it IS the same old thing, sliding down into a hole of immobility and the
family gets in the habit of NOT going out and NOT finding interesting things in
the community, that's not optimal unschooling.
Couples even without kids get that way sometimes, to the point that they're
not going to parties anymore, not inviting people over anymore, and soon it's
just the same thing all the time and they've become immobilized and stuck.
Stuck isn't a learning place.
If someone's own home is a hive of activity and people are coming in and out
all the time, the hours outside aren't as important, but if the child is still
and the mom is feeling uncomfortable, those are signs to MOVE.
In the past week, Kirby has played a new Star Wars video game for over 55
hours. He also went to work three times, class four times, karate for three
hours, visited a friend LATE after work Saturday, and ran a long D&D session last
night at our house. That was as full a week as I've ever seen him have when
he wasn't out of town or at a gaming convention. He hardly slept. He'll be
up again and off to class within an hour. He eats at the desk or at work, and
that's a very, very busy week.
Yesterday Marty took three friends to Explora, a hands-on museum for kids,
mostly science and math, but not all. The three friends hadn't been before.
Marty got them in on our family membership, though he was prepared to pay their
way out of his own money if the desk had said no about the "family." Those
other three, none homeschoolers) are Leif, who has a college degree and is
probably 25 years old, Ed who's 21 and a part-time college student, though he has
a GOOD job with a security clearance, and Ryan, who's barely 21 and my
favorite of all their friends. Marty is 16. They followed Marty's
recommendation that it's a really great place to go, got there about 2:00 in the afternoon
and stayed until it closed. Last night they were all in Kirby's D&D game,
and today Marty and Holly are watching another disc of Buffy with their
Buffy-watching-partner-homeschooler friend, Julie.
If the kids get used to going and doing, when they get older you won't have
to be their organizer or their driver.
If you can't get a young child up and going, you will probably not get a teen
up and going. SELL the world as a happy place, and to do that you need to
SEE the world as a happy place full of things worth getting some shoes and a
coat on and taking pains (not just when it's easy) to GET OUT THERE. Make it fun
when you do go. Play music in the car, stop and feed ducks, have a nice
lunch packed if you can't afford to go out, stop at a good place to eat it.
Treat your child as an honored guest you just can't WAIT to show something cool.
Letting kids decide to "do nothing" (though I don't think it's "nothing")
isn't good unschooling. Providing more choices for them, and more input and more
opportunity is the duty of anyone who wants to say "I'm unschooling." It
truly does need to be a "doing," an action, a life lived purposefully and richly,
not just a hiding-out from school. It SHOULD be so rich that anyone who
hears stories is impressed and understands it.
For anyone new who might not know about this collection of typial days (or
for longtime readers who just haven't seen it for a while), here:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
Sandra
Mary
I guess I'm very lucky that I don't have kids that complain when we take
them somewhere that they haven't decided on themselves. Not sure if it's how
they are or how we have all managed to be together.
But it happens around here. And most of the time the kids love being out and
seeing the new stuff we have planned for us all. Sometimes we all decide it
wasn't that great, but that we had a good time just being out and deciding
for ourselves.
One thing we have learned is that Joseph (10) doesn't like surprises when it
comes to going somewhere. Sierra (9) does like surprises so we act
accordingly and Joseph is good about not saying anything. Alyssa (4) just
really likes to go out unless it's cold and she has to wear clothes. We have
managed to get by that on a few occasions.
There is a big Renaissance Festival around here that we have never been too.
They use to have it at a park just down the street from us and we have never
gone there either. Mostly because I thought it was really expensive for us
all to get in. Now it's held about 40 minutes away and Joe (dh) was able to
get us in for free.
So off we went with the 3 younger kids. Tara (18) had to work. I tried to
explain to the kids the best I could as to what it was about. I didn't make
it half as interesting as it really was once we got there. It was wonderful
and we all had a really good time. Definitely planning on going back next
year. In fact Joe and I went again yesterday just the two of us. I loved the
atmosphere and had such a good time with all the people in character there.
The shows were so funny I haven't laughed that hard in quite awhile. The
first time we went, Joseph even volunteered to go up on stage with the
magician. Something he has never done. He had such a good time.
So sometimes things end up that way going to new places. Having a wonderful
time and deciding to do it again. Sometimes, like the Monster Truck Jam, we
all decide it was a fun experience, but we won't be going back anytime soon!
I can't say we have ever gone anywhere where we've had an awful time. We
make the most out of being together and just doing something new.
Mary B
them somewhere that they haven't decided on themselves. Not sure if it's how
they are or how we have all managed to be together.
But it happens around here. And most of the time the kids love being out and
seeing the new stuff we have planned for us all. Sometimes we all decide it
wasn't that great, but that we had a good time just being out and deciding
for ourselves.
One thing we have learned is that Joseph (10) doesn't like surprises when it
comes to going somewhere. Sierra (9) does like surprises so we act
accordingly and Joseph is good about not saying anything. Alyssa (4) just
really likes to go out unless it's cold and she has to wear clothes. We have
managed to get by that on a few occasions.
There is a big Renaissance Festival around here that we have never been too.
They use to have it at a park just down the street from us and we have never
gone there either. Mostly because I thought it was really expensive for us
all to get in. Now it's held about 40 minutes away and Joe (dh) was able to
get us in for free.
So off we went with the 3 younger kids. Tara (18) had to work. I tried to
explain to the kids the best I could as to what it was about. I didn't make
it half as interesting as it really was once we got there. It was wonderful
and we all had a really good time. Definitely planning on going back next
year. In fact Joe and I went again yesterday just the two of us. I loved the
atmosphere and had such a good time with all the people in character there.
The shows were so funny I haven't laughed that hard in quite awhile. The
first time we went, Joseph even volunteered to go up on stage with the
magician. Something he has never done. He had such a good time.
So sometimes things end up that way going to new places. Having a wonderful
time and deciding to do it again. Sometimes, like the Monster Truck Jam, we
all decide it was a fun experience, but we won't be going back anytime soon!
I can't say we have ever gone anywhere where we've had an awful time. We
make the most out of being together and just doing something new.
Mary B
Diana Tashjian
I don't know if this will help, Betsy, but I have hard time going out
of the house frequently, always being on the go, especially to
crowd-filled events or places. It's also not natural for me to want to
always have people over to my house or to want to go over all the time
to other peoples' houses. I'm a bona fide introvert. My husband is
exactly the opposite. I think it's good for me because although it
leads to conflicts of interest that we have to work out, it causes me
to stretch a little. Plus I have someone who can take my son places
that I'd rather not go :o) I think it's good for my son because he
gets to choose from the best of both worlds and he seems to lean more
towards the extrovert side.
It sounds to me like your whole family might lean towards the
introvert side. What I hear from other people sounds more like
extroversion. How do introverts unschool? Does it look or sound
different from the way extroverts unschool? It seems to me it might...
Anyway, just a thought...
Diana Tashjian
of the house frequently, always being on the go, especially to
crowd-filled events or places. It's also not natural for me to want to
always have people over to my house or to want to go over all the time
to other peoples' houses. I'm a bona fide introvert. My husband is
exactly the opposite. I think it's good for me because although it
leads to conflicts of interest that we have to work out, it causes me
to stretch a little. Plus I have someone who can take my son places
that I'd rather not go :o) I think it's good for my son because he
gets to choose from the best of both worlds and he seems to lean more
towards the extrovert side.
It sounds to me like your whole family might lean towards the
introvert side. What I hear from other people sounds more like
extroversion. How do introverts unschool? Does it look or sound
different from the way extroverts unschool? It seems to me it might...
Anyway, just a thought...
Diana Tashjian
julie w
SandraDodd@... wrote:
that's been bugging me. My dh still would like an hour of so of what he
recognizes as learning each day. Is it unschooling to say "listen lets
do some math and history and this will make Dad more comfortable about
all the rest of the time gaming, playing, watching tv, hanging out, and
letting you pretty much make all your own decisions"? The man has come
pretty far in the learning curve when it comes to an "unschooling"
lifestyle but he has a way to go.
How do you balance it all out and still call it unschooling?
Hmmm, I must be having a bad day and I'm getting tired of this internal
struggle I'm having over what and what is not unschooling.
Julie W
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>Going out on a big limb here, but this makes me think of a question
> If I couldn't inspire my kids to get up and out through my own personal
> magnetism and salesmanship, I would go to Plan B which would be to say
> "It's good
> to do something that relatives and the government will see as educational
> activity, and going to a festival looks good on the portfolio, and I
> can assure you
> it's better than ANY day at school, so put your shoes on and get a
> jacket and
> let's go have fun!"
that's been bugging me. My dh still would like an hour of so of what he
recognizes as learning each day. Is it unschooling to say "listen lets
do some math and history and this will make Dad more comfortable about
all the rest of the time gaming, playing, watching tv, hanging out, and
letting you pretty much make all your own decisions"? The man has come
pretty far in the learning curve when it comes to an "unschooling"
lifestyle but he has a way to go.
How do you balance it all out and still call it unschooling?
Hmmm, I must be having a bad day and I'm getting tired of this internal
struggle I'm having over what and what is not unschooling.
Julie W
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.0 - Release Date: 3/2/2005
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/7/2005 1:50:08 PM Mountain Standard Time,
jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
"listen lets
do some math and history and this will make Dad more comfortable about
all the rest of the time gaming, playing, watching tv, hanging out, and
letting you pretty much make all your own decisions"? The man has come
pretty far in the learning curve when it comes to an "unschooling"
lifestyle but he has a way to go.
Why does your kid need to know that you're logging some math or history time?
I wouldn't "do history" in a answering questions way, but what if you say
"Let's look at the atlas for a whiel and find some cool stuff to tell dad about
later," or "I'd feel better if we had a game to tell dad about every day, so
let's play master mind" (or whatever).
And then YOU tell your husband about Master Mind being deductive reasoning
if he's not already a Master Mind player from pre-fatherhood years.
Or you could tell your husband that if he wants a schoolish hour a day, that
can be his contribution. (He probably wouldn't last a week, so it's a safe
suggestion to make.)
-=-The man has come
pretty far in the learning curve when it comes to an "unschooling"
lifestyle but he has a way to go.
-=-
He won't go those final steps if you cave in and do school.
-=-How do you balance it all out and still call it unschooling?-=-
People call all kinds of things unschooling. I don't think you meant to ask
your question that way. I think you want to really be in the natural
learning, not in the part-time-school mode and calling it unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
"listen lets
do some math and history and this will make Dad more comfortable about
all the rest of the time gaming, playing, watching tv, hanging out, and
letting you pretty much make all your own decisions"? The man has come
pretty far in the learning curve when it comes to an "unschooling"
lifestyle but he has a way to go.
Why does your kid need to know that you're logging some math or history time?
I wouldn't "do history" in a answering questions way, but what if you say
"Let's look at the atlas for a whiel and find some cool stuff to tell dad about
later," or "I'd feel better if we had a game to tell dad about every day, so
let's play master mind" (or whatever).
And then YOU tell your husband about Master Mind being deductive reasoning
if he's not already a Master Mind player from pre-fatherhood years.
Or you could tell your husband that if he wants a schoolish hour a day, that
can be his contribution. (He probably wouldn't last a week, so it's a safe
suggestion to make.)
-=-The man has come
pretty far in the learning curve when it comes to an "unschooling"
lifestyle but he has a way to go.
-=-
He won't go those final steps if you cave in and do school.
-=-How do you balance it all out and still call it unschooling?-=-
People call all kinds of things unschooling. I don't think you meant to ask
your question that way. I think you want to really be in the natural
learning, not in the part-time-school mode and calling it unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], "Diana Tashjian"
<dtashjian@c...> wrote:
back and forth between wanting to be out and about with people and
close to home just us. I know that I've grown more able to handle
people stuff as I've gotten older - I just account for it by a chunk
of downtime before or after it. So that's mostly what we do as a
family - if we've got a really people-filled few days, we'll then
try to clear out the schedule some and hunker down for movies, board
games, whatever and just be home together for a bit. Generally,
Friday-Monday tends to be out and about so Tuesday-Thursday tends to
be closer to home - Thursday night is in-between - DH and I have our
weekly date and DS plays with Grandma and toddler cousin Tyler at
Grandma's house. We also keep an eye on how many different places we
go to in a given day - more than 2 or 3 is too much.
Just my 2 cents
<dtashjian@c...> wrote:
>>might...
> It sounds to me like your whole family might lean towards the
> introvert side. What I hear from other people sounds more like
> extroversion. How do introverts unschool? Does it look or sound
> different from the way extroverts unschool? It seems to me it
>We're mostly introverts - DH and I are definitely and DS tends to go
back and forth between wanting to be out and about with people and
close to home just us. I know that I've grown more able to handle
people stuff as I've gotten older - I just account for it by a chunk
of downtime before or after it. So that's mostly what we do as a
family - if we've got a really people-filled few days, we'll then
try to clear out the schedule some and hunker down for movies, board
games, whatever and just be home together for a bit. Generally,
Friday-Monday tends to be out and about so Tuesday-Thursday tends to
be closer to home - Thursday night is in-between - DH and I have our
weekly date and DS plays with Grandma and toddler cousin Tyler at
Grandma's house. We also keep an eye on how many different places we
go to in a given day - more than 2 or 3 is too much.
Just my 2 cents
Pam Sorooshian
Stop worrying about whether or not what you do is CALLED unschooling.
That's not the real question you need to be asking yourself.
I really mean that. I don't care if what we do is called unschooling.
I care to talk about unschooling - what it means, what it is based on,
what unschooling parents do, and so on --- but if somebody else looks
at my kids and says, "That's not unschooling," so what? If I listed my
100 goals of life - other people calling what we do "unschooling" would
not be on my list.
If you have to do an hour of something that works for your husband in
order to have freedom the rest of the time - then so be it. If it buys
you a relaxed happy household - it might be worth it. On the other
hand, if you can educate him to understanding what unschooling is all
about - then so much the better. And, if you put your mind to it, I bet
you can come up with things to do that satisfy him and aren't as
schooly as, say, doing workbooks or reading textbooks/writing essays,
etc. It doesn't have to be all or nothing - you can use what YOU know
about learning in all kinds of ways to come up with enough to satisfy
him and still not really be "doing school" at home.
But, if you're asking if "doing school" an hour a day is still
unschooling. Well, no. The answer is easy and clear. But so what? Is
being called an unschooler what is important? No. It is how your family
lives its life that is important and only you really know what will be
the best choice. Harmony in your family can be worth a lot. On the
other hand, maybe your husband can be re-educated. Many of us had
recalcitrant spouses who either came around or gave in <g>.
In order to avoid any judgment by others about whether or not we were
"unschoolers" - I called us "unschoolish" for years, as in, "We're
pretty unschoolish." Hedged my bets <G>. Now I don't care anymore what
other people call us.
-pam
That's not the real question you need to be asking yourself.
I really mean that. I don't care if what we do is called unschooling.
I care to talk about unschooling - what it means, what it is based on,
what unschooling parents do, and so on --- but if somebody else looks
at my kids and says, "That's not unschooling," so what? If I listed my
100 goals of life - other people calling what we do "unschooling" would
not be on my list.
If you have to do an hour of something that works for your husband in
order to have freedom the rest of the time - then so be it. If it buys
you a relaxed happy household - it might be worth it. On the other
hand, if you can educate him to understanding what unschooling is all
about - then so much the better. And, if you put your mind to it, I bet
you can come up with things to do that satisfy him and aren't as
schooly as, say, doing workbooks or reading textbooks/writing essays,
etc. It doesn't have to be all or nothing - you can use what YOU know
about learning in all kinds of ways to come up with enough to satisfy
him and still not really be "doing school" at home.
But, if you're asking if "doing school" an hour a day is still
unschooling. Well, no. The answer is easy and clear. But so what? Is
being called an unschooler what is important? No. It is how your family
lives its life that is important and only you really know what will be
the best choice. Harmony in your family can be worth a lot. On the
other hand, maybe your husband can be re-educated. Many of us had
recalcitrant spouses who either came around or gave in <g>.
In order to avoid any judgment by others about whether or not we were
"unschoolers" - I called us "unschoolish" for years, as in, "We're
pretty unschoolish." Hedged my bets <G>. Now I don't care anymore what
other people call us.
-pam
On Mar 7, 2005, at 12:45 PM, julie w wrote:
> How do you balance it all out and still call it unschooling?
> Hmmm, I must be having a bad day and I'm getting tired of this internal
> struggle I'm having over what and what is not unschooling.
> Julie W
julie w
SandraDodd@... wrote:
explanation gives him a push to just go along.
No its not the best thing....
awhile, or watch something on the History Channel, or look though a
book.....which for the most part are things he does not want to spend
his time doing.
home to the time he goes to bed. I can be pretty "well if you don't like
the way I do it do it yourself" mostly, but in this instance I have to
protect Jim from his own extraordinary work ethic. If he took it on,
which he would if I suggested, he'd never have any down time and
probably die from a heart attack......
It all sounds like excuses and maybe I just have given up on this point.....
;-)
whole thing.
But I am lazy...yes LAZY and some days its easier to just give up and
not have any more of those long, drawn out conversations with dh. Its
easier to do "schoolish" shit for an hour and mark it done in my brain
and go on to do what we want. More then that, its easier to mark that
stuff down and quiet that voice that says we not even very good
unschoolers because we just maybe the kind who really don't have tons of
cool conversations, or go to the museums, or on trips, or spend money on
stuff in the hopes that ds will not look at it and say "that looks
stupid, or boring or sucky".....
It also could be this time of year when I always go a bit crazy, plus I
just got bifocals and they are making me quite annoyed about everything.
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> Why does your kid need to know that you're logging some math orMostly because he would prefer to keep to his own schedule and my
> history time?
explanation gives him a push to just go along.
No its not the best thing....
> I wouldn't "do history" in a answering questions way, but what if youYes, of course and if I say "do history" I might just read to him for
> say
> "Let's look at the atlas for a whiel and find some cool stuff to tell
> dad about
> later," or "I'd feel better if we had a game to tell dad about every
> day, so
> let's play master mind" (or whatever).
awhile, or watch something on the History Channel, or look though a
book.....which for the most part are things he does not want to spend
his time doing.
>I would so love that but he's got about 2 hours from the time he gets
> Or you could tell your husband that if he wants a schoolish hour a
> day, that
> can be his contribution.
home to the time he goes to bed. I can be pretty "well if you don't like
the way I do it do it yourself" mostly, but in this instance I have to
protect Jim from his own extraordinary work ethic. If he took it on,
which he would if I suggested, he'd never have any down time and
probably die from a heart attack......
It all sounds like excuses and maybe I just have given up on this point.....
> -=-The man has comeThere is that giving up thing again.
> pretty far in the learning curve when it comes to an "unschooling"
> lifestyle but he has a way to go.
> -=-
>
> He won't go those final steps if you cave in and do school.
;-)
> -=-How do you balance it all out and still call it unschooling?-=-And you are right of course and that is what is bugging me about the
>
> People call all kinds of things unschooling. I don't think you meant
> to ask
> your question that way. I think you want to really be in the natural
> learning, not in the part-time-school mode and calling it unschooling.
whole thing.
But I am lazy...yes LAZY and some days its easier to just give up and
not have any more of those long, drawn out conversations with dh. Its
easier to do "schoolish" shit for an hour and mark it done in my brain
and go on to do what we want. More then that, its easier to mark that
stuff down and quiet that voice that says we not even very good
unschoolers because we just maybe the kind who really don't have tons of
cool conversations, or go to the museums, or on trips, or spend money on
stuff in the hopes that ds will not look at it and say "that looks
stupid, or boring or sucky".....
It also could be this time of year when I always go a bit crazy, plus I
just got bifocals and they are making me quite annoyed about everything.
>----------
>
> Sandra
>
>
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julie w
Pam Sorooshian wrote:
me a relaxed household in which ds is free to pretty much live as he
wants and I only have to be annoyed with stupid people and these, so
very, very annoying bifocals.
Unschoolish.
Covering bases.
That's good.
Wonder why I care, I normally could give a flying fig what other folks
think....I probably care in a detached kinda way that hinges more on
feeling like a fraud but really wanting to keep the peace at home.
Julie W (who will be seeing Tuckervill tomorrow and that will make up
for the really annoying bifocals, which are also oh, so cool looking) in AR
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> In order to avoid any judgment by others about whether or not we wereI liked the whole post especially the fact that 1 hour of "school" buys
> "unschoolers" - I called us "unschoolish" for years, as in, "We're
> pretty unschoolish." Hedged my bets <G>. Now I don't care anymore what
> other people call us.
me a relaxed household in which ds is free to pretty much live as he
wants and I only have to be annoyed with stupid people and these, so
very, very annoying bifocals.
Unschoolish.
Covering bases.
That's good.
Wonder why I care, I normally could give a flying fig what other folks
think....I probably care in a detached kinda way that hinges more on
feeling like a fraud but really wanting to keep the peace at home.
Julie W (who will be seeing Tuckervill tomorrow and that will make up
for the really annoying bifocals, which are also oh, so cool looking) in AR
>----------
> -pam
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2005, at 12:45 PM, julie w wrote:
>
> > How do you balance it all out and still call it unschooling?
> > Hmmm, I must be having a bad day and I'm getting tired of this internal
> > struggle I'm having over what and what is not unschooling.
> > Julie W
>
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kayb85
> I think the "do nothing" CAN be too strong, and kids who are sparedhaving to
> go to school 180 days can do SOME things out of the house in thename of
> actively living and learning.I think the "do nothing" can be too strong too. But I haven't seen
people who "do nothing" too strongly unless they're depressed or if
they're so programmed by school that they don't know how to do
something unless they're told to do it. That's why I asked Betsy if
her son was happy and content. If he's happy and enjoying his life,
then is the do nothing too strong?
Is being an extrovert better than being an introvert? (I don't think
so). What if the introvert is at the extreme end of introvertedness
and rarely wants to go anywhere? Not because they don't have
somewhere willing to take them but just because that's how their
personality is wired?
At what point does our coaxing turn into trying to get them to be
someone who they aren't? If we trust them to know when they're ready
to read--all the time, why not trust them to know when they're ready
to leave the house--all the time? If we wouldn't say, "Oh, please
just 15 minutes of spelling", why would we say, "Oh, please just 15
minutes at a festival?"
> I think it SHOULD pop up once in a while, maybe withoutthe "educational"
> emphasis, but learning happens from exposure, and if people neglectto expose,
> that's pretty heavy on the "neglect" end of the balance.I think it's heavy on the neglect end if people neglect to offer to
expose. The festival I wanted to take my kids to had ice sculptures
and I thought that would have been cool for them to see. But it's
not like they've never seen ice sculptures before. As a matter of
fact we were just recently looking at a magazine that had some really
cool ice sculptures in it, and they ooohed and aaahed over them. AND
I offered to take them to the festival and told them there would be
some neat ice sculptures there. I asked them more than once. I even
said, "Okay, how about if we just go get something to eat and then
come back home". Nope, there really was no interest. They stayed
home and enjoyed themselves a lot more than they would have if they
had gone to the festival.
> If I couldn't inspire my kids to get up and out through my ownpersonal
> magnetism and salesmanship, I would go to Plan B which would be tosay "It's good
> to do something that relatives and the government will see aseducational
> activity, and going to a festival looks good on the portfolio, andI can assure you
> it's better than ANY day at school, so put your shoes on and get ajacket and
> let's go have fun!"Is doing something so that someone else approves a good reason to do
anything?
If I told my kids to put their shoes on and get a jacket and let's go
have fun at something they clearly didn't want to go to, they very
well might refuse to get in the car. My 11 year old might go, but
she'd be upset with me and she'd be miserable and it would affect our
relationship negatively.
> If it IS the same old thing, sliding down into a hole of immobilityand the
> family gets in the habit of NOT going out and NOT findinginteresting things in
> the community, that's not optimal unschooling.But it's possible to not be the same old thing and still not be doing
many things in the community. My kids are rarely if ever bored.
There is always all kinds of creative stuff going on around the
house, and they're very often laughing and very excited about
something cool they're doing. It's just that more often than not,
most of the cool, creative, intersting stuff they do is at home, not
out in the community.
Or maybe people are defining "not going out much" differently. For
some people, going out once every other day is still staying home a
lot. For other people, going out once every 2 weeks is going out a
lot.
I think that if a child isn't going out because he's not allowed to
or doesn't have the chance to, that's bad. If a child isn't going
out because he's afraid of the world and no one has ever gently tried
to give him opportunities to do stuff outside of the house, that's
bad. But if that's just his personality, then it's good when it's
honored and no one's trying to change it.
> If someone's own home is a hive of activity and people are comingin and out
> all the time, the hours outside aren't as important,What if the home is a hive of activity but people only come in and
out once in a while, and the child is still happy and thriving?
but if the child is still
> and the mom is feeling uncomfortable, those are signs to MOVE.If the mom is feeling uncomfortable because she's truly listening to
her instincts and senses that something is wrong, yes. But if a mom
is listening to insecurities and friends and relatives who worry too
much, then the mom might need to center herself and listen to her gut
instincts then.
> Letting kids decide to "do nothing" (though I don't thinkit's "nothing")
> isn't good unschooling.I don't understand how it would be good unschooling to NOT let them
do whatever they've decided to do. As long as they're happy and
thriving of course.
Sheila
Laurel Santiago
My husband is a little bit like that himself, but he came from very poor circumstances. Education was not a priority in his family, and he has suffered greatly because of the lack of effort and caring on the part of his family. I think that he is afraid of being the same way with our family, but our children prove every day that their education is not being neglected, and I have often overheard him defending our position to busybodies even after he tells me that we are not doing enough. I keep a box of every paper that they bring from church, scouting, artwork that they do on their own, and any coloring or workbook pages that the children complete. This way he can have his paperwork, and the kids still have their time to explore.
Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:Stop worrying about whether or not what you do is CALLED unschooling.
That's not the real question you need to be asking yourself.
I really mean that. I don't care if what we do is called unschooling.
I care to talk about unschooling - what it means, what it is based on,
what unschooling parents do, and so on --- but if somebody else looks
at my kids and says, "That's not unschooling," so what? If I listed my
100 goals of life - other people calling what we do "unschooling" would
not be on my list.
If you have to do an hour of something that works for your husband in
order to have freedom the rest of the time - then so be it. If it buys
you a relaxed happy household - it might be worth it. On the other
hand, if you can educate him to understanding what unschooling is all
about - then so much the better. And, if you put your mind to it, I bet
you can come up with things to do that satisfy him and aren't as
schooly as, say, doing workbooks or reading textbooks/writing essays,
etc. It doesn't have to be all or nothing - you can use what YOU know
about learning in all kinds of ways to come up with enough to satisfy
him and still not really be "doing school" at home.
But, if you're asking if "doing school" an hour a day is still
unschooling. Well, no. The answer is easy and clear. But so what? Is
being called an unschooler what is important? No. It is how your family
lives its life that is important and only you really know what will be
the best choice. Harmony in your family can be worth a lot. On the
other hand, maybe your husband can be re-educated. Many of us had
recalcitrant spouses who either came around or gave in <g>.
In order to avoid any judgment by others about whether or not we were
"unschoolers" - I called us "unschoolish" for years, as in, "We're
pretty unschoolish." Hedged my bets <G>. Now I don't care anymore what
other people call us.
-pam
Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:Stop worrying about whether or not what you do is CALLED unschooling.
That's not the real question you need to be asking yourself.
I really mean that. I don't care if what we do is called unschooling.
I care to talk about unschooling - what it means, what it is based on,
what unschooling parents do, and so on --- but if somebody else looks
at my kids and says, "That's not unschooling," so what? If I listed my
100 goals of life - other people calling what we do "unschooling" would
not be on my list.
If you have to do an hour of something that works for your husband in
order to have freedom the rest of the time - then so be it. If it buys
you a relaxed happy household - it might be worth it. On the other
hand, if you can educate him to understanding what unschooling is all
about - then so much the better. And, if you put your mind to it, I bet
you can come up with things to do that satisfy him and aren't as
schooly as, say, doing workbooks or reading textbooks/writing essays,
etc. It doesn't have to be all or nothing - you can use what YOU know
about learning in all kinds of ways to come up with enough to satisfy
him and still not really be "doing school" at home.
But, if you're asking if "doing school" an hour a day is still
unschooling. Well, no. The answer is easy and clear. But so what? Is
being called an unschooler what is important? No. It is how your family
lives its life that is important and only you really know what will be
the best choice. Harmony in your family can be worth a lot. On the
other hand, maybe your husband can be re-educated. Many of us had
recalcitrant spouses who either came around or gave in <g>.
In order to avoid any judgment by others about whether or not we were
"unschoolers" - I called us "unschoolish" for years, as in, "We're
pretty unschoolish." Hedged my bets <G>. Now I don't care anymore what
other people call us.
-pam
On Mar 7, 2005, at 12:45 PM, julie w wrote:
> How do you balance it all out and still call it unschooling?
> Hmmm, I must be having a bad day and I'm getting tired of this internal
> struggle I'm having over what and what is not unschooling.
> Julie W
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Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 7, 2005, at 8:38 PM, julie w wrote:
young, I didn't know where we'd end up - I couldn't guarantee (even to
myself) that we'd never end up using a curriculum, for example. I
didn't EXPECT to do that, but I had to be honest with myself and admit
that when my oldest started school, I never EXPECTED to end up
homeschooling, either. So - I couldn't completely rule out the
possibility that there might be a time when we wouldn't entirely
unschool. And I didn't want to have laid some sort of strong claim to
be an "unschooler" and then either feel like a fraud or feel I had to
explain a change of mind, if one happened, later. So - I hedged.
But no more.
-pam
> Wonder why I care, I normally could give a flying fig what other folksYes - I get the not wanting to feel like a fraud. When my kids were
> think....I probably care in a detached kinda way that hinges more on
> feeling like a fraud but really wanting to keep the peace at home.
young, I didn't know where we'd end up - I couldn't guarantee (even to
myself) that we'd never end up using a curriculum, for example. I
didn't EXPECT to do that, but I had to be honest with myself and admit
that when my oldest started school, I never EXPECTED to end up
homeschooling, either. So - I couldn't completely rule out the
possibility that there might be a time when we wouldn't entirely
unschool. And I didn't want to have laid some sort of strong claim to
be an "unschooler" and then either feel like a fraud or feel I had to
explain a change of mind, if one happened, later. So - I hedged.
But no more.
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 7, 2005, at 9:32 PM, kayb85 wrote:
introverted. I know a couple of extremely introverted unschoolers -
their lives aren't as filled with other people, especially groups, but
they're filled with all kinds of interesting activities and experiences
- they just tend to be filled with fewer "interpersonal" activities and
experiences.
Sheila - you're focusing on the "going out" aspects of this - but that
isn't the critical point. Both you and Betsy have sounded like you
WANT your kids to want to go out more or something. So - we can give
you suggestions of how to make that more likely - but the point of
having a rich and stimulating lifestyle isn't dependent on being "on
the go" all the time - but it IS dependent on the parents bringing all
KINDS of information and ideas and facts and questions and experiences
and wonderings and interesting aspects of the world TO their kids in
all kinds of ways.
-pam
> Is being an extrovert better than being an introvert?I honestly do not think this question is about being extroverted versus
introverted. I know a couple of extremely introverted unschoolers -
their lives aren't as filled with other people, especially groups, but
they're filled with all kinds of interesting activities and experiences
- they just tend to be filled with fewer "interpersonal" activities and
experiences.
Sheila - you're focusing on the "going out" aspects of this - but that
isn't the critical point. Both you and Betsy have sounded like you
WANT your kids to want to go out more or something. So - we can give
you suggestions of how to make that more likely - but the point of
having a rich and stimulating lifestyle isn't dependent on being "on
the go" all the time - but it IS dependent on the parents bringing all
KINDS of information and ideas and facts and questions and experiences
and wonderings and interesting aspects of the world TO their kids in
all kinds of ways.
-pam
Angela S
From the time we started to homeschool (unschool) until the last year or
two, I made sure I offered my children a variety of places to go, people to
see and meet, and things to do. We went to the theater several times a
year, we joined a homeschooling group, we went to park days, we went to
different field trips with homeschool groups, we went bowling, and skating,
and sliding, and skiing, we joined an art class, went to the animal rescue
zoo, the museum, I offered a variety of classes (that were always turned
down), like dance, karate, baseball, etc. We only went to things when they
would agree to go. That was working well for us at the time because my kids
didn't seem to have a passion for anything yet.
I knew other kids who had passions long before my kids. Some were into
karate, some dance, and they really loved it. My kids liked going to these
different things, but they hadn't found anything that really made them
drool. :-) That was until we went with a homeschool group on a riding
stable tour. :-) I asked them if they'd be interested in riding lessons
(of course that was the most expensive thing I'd ever offered.) and my
youngest said she was interested. I didn't call right off. Over the next
couple of weeks she kept reminding me to call. (I was a little hesitant to
call, that's just me, not knowing if you had to be able to afford to go
weekly, or whatever) Her reminders let me know she was serious about it. I
finally called and set up the first lesson. (The instructor assured me it
was fine to come every other week) The following week my older dd decided
she wanted to try it too. (She likes to know exactly what to expect when
she goes somewhere, hence allowing her sister to try it first.)
Those first lessons were the beginning of a serious obsession with horses.
Now, my kids are interested in leaving the house every day, but only to go
to the barn up the road where we board our horse. (I would never have
dreamed after that trip to the barn with the homeschool group that we'd have
our own horse in two years!) They will go to the grocery store out of
necessity. (when we run out of carrots for the horse) and they do love the
tack store or anything horse related (we went on a sleigh ride recently).
But pretty much, since last fall, those are the only places we've been.
(Well, except to friends and relative's houses for visits) We are all three
really happy with this for right now. Their exposure to things other than
horses has been curbed tremendously. Their interest in going other places
has come to an end. But I am not worried that they are no longer exposed to
a wide variety of things because they have found their passion for right
now.
When we aren't at the barn, we have a houseful of great things to do and
they are happy to be at home when they are at home. We all love board games
and my kids still love pretend play. (about horses of course) We read
about horses, both fiction and non-fiction. We watch horse training shows
and events on TV. They are happy and fulfilled and we'll continue on this
path until they are no longer happy and fulfilled.
If I were trying to get them out of the house to go to different events (so
they'd look well rounded for their portfolio review) I am sure I'd be met
with some serious resistance. This year has not been a year that was filled
with a variety of social or educational trips. From the outside I am sure
we all look like a bunch of hermits who don't go anywhere, but I don't care.
We are all happy and content with the way things are. We aren't overly
social by nature anyway and we've all discovered we have a passion for
horses.
I don't think that I am being neglectful as an unschooler this year because
I haven't offered to take them to a wide variety of places. I know what
their answer would be. They'd rather go to the barn and ride, and groom,
and clean stalls. I think they are lucky to be able to follow their passion
for right now.
Angela
* game-enthusiast@....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
two, I made sure I offered my children a variety of places to go, people to
see and meet, and things to do. We went to the theater several times a
year, we joined a homeschooling group, we went to park days, we went to
different field trips with homeschool groups, we went bowling, and skating,
and sliding, and skiing, we joined an art class, went to the animal rescue
zoo, the museum, I offered a variety of classes (that were always turned
down), like dance, karate, baseball, etc. We only went to things when they
would agree to go. That was working well for us at the time because my kids
didn't seem to have a passion for anything yet.
I knew other kids who had passions long before my kids. Some were into
karate, some dance, and they really loved it. My kids liked going to these
different things, but they hadn't found anything that really made them
drool. :-) That was until we went with a homeschool group on a riding
stable tour. :-) I asked them if they'd be interested in riding lessons
(of course that was the most expensive thing I'd ever offered.) and my
youngest said she was interested. I didn't call right off. Over the next
couple of weeks she kept reminding me to call. (I was a little hesitant to
call, that's just me, not knowing if you had to be able to afford to go
weekly, or whatever) Her reminders let me know she was serious about it. I
finally called and set up the first lesson. (The instructor assured me it
was fine to come every other week) The following week my older dd decided
she wanted to try it too. (She likes to know exactly what to expect when
she goes somewhere, hence allowing her sister to try it first.)
Those first lessons were the beginning of a serious obsession with horses.
Now, my kids are interested in leaving the house every day, but only to go
to the barn up the road where we board our horse. (I would never have
dreamed after that trip to the barn with the homeschool group that we'd have
our own horse in two years!) They will go to the grocery store out of
necessity. (when we run out of carrots for the horse) and they do love the
tack store or anything horse related (we went on a sleigh ride recently).
But pretty much, since last fall, those are the only places we've been.
(Well, except to friends and relative's houses for visits) We are all three
really happy with this for right now. Their exposure to things other than
horses has been curbed tremendously. Their interest in going other places
has come to an end. But I am not worried that they are no longer exposed to
a wide variety of things because they have found their passion for right
now.
When we aren't at the barn, we have a houseful of great things to do and
they are happy to be at home when they are at home. We all love board games
and my kids still love pretend play. (about horses of course) We read
about horses, both fiction and non-fiction. We watch horse training shows
and events on TV. They are happy and fulfilled and we'll continue on this
path until they are no longer happy and fulfilled.
If I were trying to get them out of the house to go to different events (so
they'd look well rounded for their portfolio review) I am sure I'd be met
with some serious resistance. This year has not been a year that was filled
with a variety of social or educational trips. From the outside I am sure
we all look like a bunch of hermits who don't go anywhere, but I don't care.
We are all happy and content with the way things are. We aren't overly
social by nature anyway and we've all discovered we have a passion for
horses.
I don't think that I am being neglectful as an unschooler this year because
I haven't offered to take them to a wide variety of places. I know what
their answer would be. They'd rather go to the barn and ride, and groom,
and clean stalls. I think they are lucky to be able to follow their passion
for right now.
Angela
* game-enthusiast@....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Aimee
Hey ya'll, haven't been on list for ages...did ya MISS
ME? lol
<< Its easier to do "schoolish" shit for an hour and
mark it done in my brain
and go on to do what we want. >>
I understand that when it comes to dishes, for
example, or taking out the garbage, lol, but for
learning? Learning is more complex than that, and the
simple fact is, he won't learn much, if anything, if
you do schoolish stuff for an hour, there's no
context, no richness, no real, lasting connections
made in his brain.
Ask your dh, is that what he wants?
Does he *really* want learning to be flat and lifeless
and a chore?
And really, it's not easier. I know it SEEMS easier,
but it's really not in the long run, it's ten times
harder to wake up a kid to real learning after he's
been bored stiff by schooly crap. :-)
<<More then that, its easier to mark that
stuff down and quiet that voice that says we not even
very good unschoolers because we just maybe the kind
who really don't have tons of cool conversations, or
go to the museums, or on trips, or spend money on
stuff in the hopes that ds will not look at it and say
"that looks stupid, or boring or sucky".....>>
I used to think we weren't that kind of unschooler,
too. We are homebodies, we don't have a lot of money
for activities or fieldtrips. But we do what we like,
and we learn despite all that. Really. :-)
Open up your mind. Try to let go of your preconceived
notions of what learning is and is not. Pay attention
to the processes that your son is going thru RIGHT
NOW, TODAY. Write about it tonite, see what ya see.
And try not to minimize what he did do as just
*whatever*. See your son as a multi faceted person
who is spending his time learning about himself, at
the very least, whatever he happens to be doing.
<<It also could be this time of year when I always go
a bit crazy, plus I
just got bifocals and they are making me quite annoyed
about everything.>>
I can't imagine training my eyes to look thru the
different lenses, just thinking about it's giving me a
headache! lol Give yourself a break right now, then,
don't make decisions when you're annoyed. I find if I
do that I have to go and undo them all, anyway, and
that's too much work! lol
~Aimee
=====
In times of change, learners inherit the Earth, while the learned find
themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists.
- Eric Hoffer
ME? lol
<< Its easier to do "schoolish" shit for an hour and
mark it done in my brain
and go on to do what we want. >>
I understand that when it comes to dishes, for
example, or taking out the garbage, lol, but for
learning? Learning is more complex than that, and the
simple fact is, he won't learn much, if anything, if
you do schoolish stuff for an hour, there's no
context, no richness, no real, lasting connections
made in his brain.
Ask your dh, is that what he wants?
Does he *really* want learning to be flat and lifeless
and a chore?
And really, it's not easier. I know it SEEMS easier,
but it's really not in the long run, it's ten times
harder to wake up a kid to real learning after he's
been bored stiff by schooly crap. :-)
<<More then that, its easier to mark that
stuff down and quiet that voice that says we not even
very good unschoolers because we just maybe the kind
who really don't have tons of cool conversations, or
go to the museums, or on trips, or spend money on
stuff in the hopes that ds will not look at it and say
"that looks stupid, or boring or sucky".....>>
I used to think we weren't that kind of unschooler,
too. We are homebodies, we don't have a lot of money
for activities or fieldtrips. But we do what we like,
and we learn despite all that. Really. :-)
Open up your mind. Try to let go of your preconceived
notions of what learning is and is not. Pay attention
to the processes that your son is going thru RIGHT
NOW, TODAY. Write about it tonite, see what ya see.
And try not to minimize what he did do as just
*whatever*. See your son as a multi faceted person
who is spending his time learning about himself, at
the very least, whatever he happens to be doing.
<<It also could be this time of year when I always go
a bit crazy, plus I
just got bifocals and they are making me quite annoyed
about everything.>>
I can't imagine training my eyes to look thru the
different lenses, just thinking about it's giving me a
headache! lol Give yourself a break right now, then,
don't make decisions when you're annoyed. I find if I
do that I have to go and undo them all, anyway, and
that's too much work! lol
~Aimee
=====
In times of change, learners inherit the Earth, while the learned find
themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists.
- Eric Hoffer
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/7/2005 10:41:35 PM Mountain Standard Time,
sheran@... writes:
If he's happy and enjoying his life,
then is the do nothing too strong?
If she feels she's not doing enough, she should pay attention to that
feeling.
If he's totally happy and enjoying his life but it's small and limited and
could be bigger and better and she's feeling she's not doing enough, then she
should do more because she will feel better and he will have a bigger life.
-=-Is being an extrovert better than being an introvert? (I don't think
so).-=-
If introversion leads to isolation and entropy, and if what we're doing does
have SOME expectation of helping a child gather the information he needs to
have some equivalent to the education voters have decided (however indirectly)
that people in their state should have by the time they're 18, then yes,
introversion can be very bad.
If someone can't unschool, then they should get a curriculum or put their
kids in school. The laws of most place require that the kids have an education
equivalent to the state's curriculum. It IS possible to get that knowledge
all aswirl around a child so that he picks it up. That is what unschooling
depends on. A family that can't or won't stir up enough exposure to all the
subject areas schools are claiming to cover (whether they're doing it or not
doesn't matter here), then they're not really unschooling, they're just hiding
out until the compulsory attendance days are over.
-=-What if the introvert is at the extreme end of introvertedness
and rarely wants to go anywhere? Not because they don't have
somewhere willing to take them but just because that's how their
personality is wired?
-=-
School's not great for introverts, though some are good at being invisible
and bypassing most of the social interactions. But if a family chooses an
alternate method, they shouldn't then also reject the alternate method, which
seems to me to require exposure to the world one way or another.
-=-At what point does our coaxing turn into trying to get them to be
someone who they aren't? If we trust them to know when they're ready
to read--all the time, why not trust them to know when they're ready
to leave the house--all the time? If we wouldn't say, "Oh, please
just 15 minutes of spelling", why would we say, "Oh, please just 15
minutes at a festival?" -=-
I know from La Leche League that some kids are willing to walk away from
their moms as soon as they can walk and some want mom's lap for four years.
That's fine. I don't advocate moms putting their kids out and away from them
before the kid's ready at all. I don't recommend helping the child get along
without mom. But this isn't that. It's the child still being WITH mom, and
the mom being with the child, maybe just across the street instead of kid in
bedroom, mom in kitchen.
I think the examples given are NOT child not wanting to go out, they might
be child not wanting to go out with mom, so the analogy might not hold.
-=-The festival I wanted to take my kids to had ice sculptures
and I thought that would have been cool for them to see. But it's
not like they've never seen ice sculptures before-=-
I'm thrilled that we got to see the parade and ice sculputures in St. Paul
one year. New Mexico has an occasional swan at the Marriott's buffet, but
that's about it. <g>
-=-Is doing something so that someone else approves a good reason to do
anything? -=-
Sometimes, yes, unless one wants to live as a hermit. Even then, the
landowner or government might have to approve them staying in that cave or shack,
so they need to consider others to some extent.
-=-If I told my kids to put their shoes on and get a jacket and let's go
have fun at something they clearly didn't want to go to, they very
well might refuse to get in the car. My 11 year old might go, but
she'd be upset with me and she'd be miserable and it would affect our
relationship negatively. -=-
Then maybe the relationship is already affected negatively and the lack of
willingness to go out is a symptom of that. If it's not so at your house, it
might be at others', and we should be discussing the ideas and how they
affect or fit in with unschooling.
-=-I think that if a child isn't going out because he's not allowed to
or doesn't have the chance to, that's bad. If a child isn't going
out because he's afraid of the world and no one has ever gently tried
to give him opportunities to do stuff outside of the house, that's
bad. But if that's just his personality, then it's good when it's
honored and no one's trying to change it. -=-
Yes, unless his personality is going to keep unschooling from working well
enough to be an honest, legitimate alternative to school. And one of the
questions asked seemed to lean toward what if the parents and children are all
introverts and are happy being home and not talking about it?
-=-What if the home is a hive of activity but people only come in and
out once in a while, and the child is still happy and thriving?
-=-
Then that example doesn't apply at all to the questions of what if children
have few interests and mom has even fewer.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheran@... writes:
If he's happy and enjoying his life,
then is the do nothing too strong?
If she feels she's not doing enough, she should pay attention to that
feeling.
If he's totally happy and enjoying his life but it's small and limited and
could be bigger and better and she's feeling she's not doing enough, then she
should do more because she will feel better and he will have a bigger life.
-=-Is being an extrovert better than being an introvert? (I don't think
so).-=-
If introversion leads to isolation and entropy, and if what we're doing does
have SOME expectation of helping a child gather the information he needs to
have some equivalent to the education voters have decided (however indirectly)
that people in their state should have by the time they're 18, then yes,
introversion can be very bad.
If someone can't unschool, then they should get a curriculum or put their
kids in school. The laws of most place require that the kids have an education
equivalent to the state's curriculum. It IS possible to get that knowledge
all aswirl around a child so that he picks it up. That is what unschooling
depends on. A family that can't or won't stir up enough exposure to all the
subject areas schools are claiming to cover (whether they're doing it or not
doesn't matter here), then they're not really unschooling, they're just hiding
out until the compulsory attendance days are over.
-=-What if the introvert is at the extreme end of introvertedness
and rarely wants to go anywhere? Not because they don't have
somewhere willing to take them but just because that's how their
personality is wired?
-=-
School's not great for introverts, though some are good at being invisible
and bypassing most of the social interactions. But if a family chooses an
alternate method, they shouldn't then also reject the alternate method, which
seems to me to require exposure to the world one way or another.
-=-At what point does our coaxing turn into trying to get them to be
someone who they aren't? If we trust them to know when they're ready
to read--all the time, why not trust them to know when they're ready
to leave the house--all the time? If we wouldn't say, "Oh, please
just 15 minutes of spelling", why would we say, "Oh, please just 15
minutes at a festival?" -=-
I know from La Leche League that some kids are willing to walk away from
their moms as soon as they can walk and some want mom's lap for four years.
That's fine. I don't advocate moms putting their kids out and away from them
before the kid's ready at all. I don't recommend helping the child get along
without mom. But this isn't that. It's the child still being WITH mom, and
the mom being with the child, maybe just across the street instead of kid in
bedroom, mom in kitchen.
I think the examples given are NOT child not wanting to go out, they might
be child not wanting to go out with mom, so the analogy might not hold.
-=-The festival I wanted to take my kids to had ice sculptures
and I thought that would have been cool for them to see. But it's
not like they've never seen ice sculptures before-=-
I'm thrilled that we got to see the parade and ice sculputures in St. Paul
one year. New Mexico has an occasional swan at the Marriott's buffet, but
that's about it. <g>
-=-Is doing something so that someone else approves a good reason to do
anything? -=-
Sometimes, yes, unless one wants to live as a hermit. Even then, the
landowner or government might have to approve them staying in that cave or shack,
so they need to consider others to some extent.
-=-If I told my kids to put their shoes on and get a jacket and let's go
have fun at something they clearly didn't want to go to, they very
well might refuse to get in the car. My 11 year old might go, but
she'd be upset with me and she'd be miserable and it would affect our
relationship negatively. -=-
Then maybe the relationship is already affected negatively and the lack of
willingness to go out is a symptom of that. If it's not so at your house, it
might be at others', and we should be discussing the ideas and how they
affect or fit in with unschooling.
-=-I think that if a child isn't going out because he's not allowed to
or doesn't have the chance to, that's bad. If a child isn't going
out because he's afraid of the world and no one has ever gently tried
to give him opportunities to do stuff outside of the house, that's
bad. But if that's just his personality, then it's good when it's
honored and no one's trying to change it. -=-
Yes, unless his personality is going to keep unschooling from working well
enough to be an honest, legitimate alternative to school. And one of the
questions asked seemed to lean toward what if the parents and children are all
introverts and are happy being home and not talking about it?
-=-What if the home is a hive of activity but people only come in and
out once in a while, and the child is still happy and thriving?
-=-
Then that example doesn't apply at all to the questions of what if children
have few interests and mom has even fewer.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**
If someone can't unschool, then they should get a curriculum or put their
kids in school. The laws of most place require that the kids have an education
equivalent to the state's curriculum. It IS possible to get that knowledge
all aswirl around a child so that he picks it up. That is what unschooling
depends on. A family that can't or won't stir up enough exposure to all the
subject areas schools are claiming to cover (whether they're doing it or not
doesn't matter here), then they're not really unschooling, they're just hiding
out until the compulsory attendance days are over.**
(In California, I don't have to prove that I covered the curriculum, and I certainly don't have to do the silly part of covering specific topics in specific years.)
I really thought that unschooling meant letting go of the curriculum as checklist. I thought unschooling depended on the idea that the things that are important to know in life come up in life, and that if trigonometry doesn't come up, then it might not (gasp!) be necessary. And that if it is necessary, later in life, it can be learned then.
In all the discussions we've had about not demonizing television, I never thought that moms who were worried about television were "allowed" (within the framework of the unschooling philosophy), to say "turn off the TV, we're going to the festival, whether you want to or not". (Assuming the child has been more graciously offered the opportunity and has declined it.)
I made my child go to an art museum in January, because our group of friends was going. I really thought I was committing an unschooling sin, when I did so, and really thought I would be a target for criticism if I mentioned it on this list. He didn't show much interest in the exhibits, but at least he had his equally bored friends for company (a couple of the kids were interested), and we weren't in the museum for much more than an hour. He liked playing in the sculpture garden and exploring the museum gift shop afterwards.
Betsy
If someone can't unschool, then they should get a curriculum or put their
kids in school. The laws of most place require that the kids have an education
equivalent to the state's curriculum. It IS possible to get that knowledge
all aswirl around a child so that he picks it up. That is what unschooling
depends on. A family that can't or won't stir up enough exposure to all the
subject areas schools are claiming to cover (whether they're doing it or not
doesn't matter here), then they're not really unschooling, they're just hiding
out until the compulsory attendance days are over.**
(In California, I don't have to prove that I covered the curriculum, and I certainly don't have to do the silly part of covering specific topics in specific years.)
I really thought that unschooling meant letting go of the curriculum as checklist. I thought unschooling depended on the idea that the things that are important to know in life come up in life, and that if trigonometry doesn't come up, then it might not (gasp!) be necessary. And that if it is necessary, later in life, it can be learned then.
In all the discussions we've had about not demonizing television, I never thought that moms who were worried about television were "allowed" (within the framework of the unschooling philosophy), to say "turn off the TV, we're going to the festival, whether you want to or not". (Assuming the child has been more graciously offered the opportunity and has declined it.)
I made my child go to an art museum in January, because our group of friends was going. I really thought I was committing an unschooling sin, when I did so, and really thought I would be a target for criticism if I mentioned it on this list. He didn't show much interest in the exhibits, but at least he had his equally bored friends for company (a couple of the kids were interested), and we weren't in the museum for much more than an hour. He liked playing in the sculpture garden and exploring the museum gift shop afterwards.
Betsy
kayb85
> Sheila - you're focusing on the "going out" aspects of this - butthat
> isn't the critical point.I was focusing on the going out aspects of it because I thought
others who responded to Betsy were focusing on the going out aspects
of it. I thought Betsy was concerned about her son and that she was
getting a lot of "go out" advice. I was just saying that "go out"
might not be what he wants or needs" and maybe she could focus on
the "bring in".
Of course, none of us really knows for sure because we don't know
Betsy's son. I think when it comes right down to it Betsy listening
to her instincts but making sure what she's listening to instincts
and not society-induced fears and worries.
Both you and Betsy have sounded like you
> WANT your kids to want to go out more or something.I'm not like that normally. I've just had occasional panic
attacks.;)
So - we can give
> you suggestions of how to make that more likely - but the point ofbeing "on
> having a rich and stimulating lifestyle isn't dependent on
> the go" all the time - but it IS dependent on the parents bringingall
> KINDS of information and ideas and facts and questions andexperiences
> and wonderings and interesting aspects of the world TO their kidsin
> all kinds of ways.I agree completely.
Sheila
Fetteroll
on 3/8/05 1:20 PM, Elizabeth Hill at ecsamhill@... wrote:
Did you think there was a decent chance that he'd have fun?
Has he had fun on previous outings with those friends? And did he say he was
glad you made him go when (if) he had fun or would he still have rather
stayed home?
Did the museum feel like something you "should" do? (For social reasons or
because he should be out in the world more or because he needs exposure to
more than his narrow range of interests?)
As Sheila (I think) pointed out, we only get the benefit of the doubt on so
many "You're going to have to trust me on this one. I really do think you'll
like it"s. The more often we guess wrong, the less they trust us. And once
we lose their trust we need to be 100% on the mark with our guesses for
quite a long while in order to regain it!
I think I too often approach things with a "We should do this because we'll
have fun" type of attitude. And that's no way to sell something! (Maybe it
is an engineer thing! ;-)
My husband on the other hand is sharing his interests with Kathryn. They're
doing things that he loves and his love is infecting her. (But it wouldn't
work if she didn't have an innate interest.)
So I'm learning to approach things in a more inviting her to come with me
because "I know I'm going to have fun with this" attitude, rather than this
is something you should enjoy because I like it attitude, if that makes
sense.
You don't have to be out in the world in order to introduce him to stuff.
Though, at least with Kathryn it's difficult to strew things around the
house. It's rare that she'll pick something up that's laying around because
her attention isn't focused on her environment. It's focused on me and what
we can do next.
But bringing other kids in can make what seemed like a piece of clutter
sitting about into something interesting :-) You haven't mentioned much
about having kids over. Is that something he doesn't like?
Joyce
> I made my child go to an art museum in January, because our group of friendsWhy did you want him to go to the museum?
> was going.
Did you think there was a decent chance that he'd have fun?
Has he had fun on previous outings with those friends? And did he say he was
glad you made him go when (if) he had fun or would he still have rather
stayed home?
Did the museum feel like something you "should" do? (For social reasons or
because he should be out in the world more or because he needs exposure to
more than his narrow range of interests?)
As Sheila (I think) pointed out, we only get the benefit of the doubt on so
many "You're going to have to trust me on this one. I really do think you'll
like it"s. The more often we guess wrong, the less they trust us. And once
we lose their trust we need to be 100% on the mark with our guesses for
quite a long while in order to regain it!
I think I too often approach things with a "We should do this because we'll
have fun" type of attitude. And that's no way to sell something! (Maybe it
is an engineer thing! ;-)
My husband on the other hand is sharing his interests with Kathryn. They're
doing things that he loves and his love is infecting her. (But it wouldn't
work if she didn't have an innate interest.)
So I'm learning to approach things in a more inviting her to come with me
because "I know I'm going to have fun with this" attitude, rather than this
is something you should enjoy because I like it attitude, if that makes
sense.
You don't have to be out in the world in order to introduce him to stuff.
Though, at least with Kathryn it's difficult to strew things around the
house. It's rare that she'll pick something up that's laying around because
her attention isn't focused on her environment. It's focused on me and what
we can do next.
But bringing other kids in can make what seemed like a piece of clutter
sitting about into something interesting :-) You haven't mentioned much
about having kids over. Is that something he doesn't like?
Joyce
kayb85
> If she feels she's not doing enough, she should pay attention tothat
> feeling.limited and
> If he's totally happy and enjoying his life but it's small and
> could be bigger and better and she's feeling she's not doingenough, then she
> should do more because she will feel better and he will have abigger life.
Yep, but I think that it depends on what she's really feeling and why.
Is she feeling what she's feeling because she's depressed? Or is the
child depressed? Or has she just been talking to a mainstream-push-
your-child-to-be-a-superchild mom who planted fear and worry in her
head? Has she recently compared her child to a more outgoing child
and started worrying? Or is it honest to goodness maternal instinct
telling her that the child is in a stuck place and needs to be pushed
out of it?
If it's the latter then I agree with everything you're saying. I'm
just not convinced that it always (or usually!) is the latter. I
think that a LOT of women in our society don't know how to really
listen to their own instincts because they've been taught all their
lives that they should do what is "right" according to mainstream
society instead of what they sense in their hearts to be true. So
they ignore that instinct until they don't even know how to use it
anymore. They "feel" their breastfed infant isn't getting enough so
they push formula and cereal onto him. They "feel" their introvert
isn't getting enough socially so they push that onto him.
So I think it's up to every woman to decide for herself what exactly
she's feeling and why. If it's instinct, then definitely trust it
and do what it's telling you.
> If introversion leads to isolation and entropy,Entropy isn't good. Isolation can be good, if it's what a person
needs. Or it can be bad if it's not what a person needs. Some people
might create beautiful works of art or develop profound scientific
theories while in isolation and really thrive and become more in tune
with who they are. Others might just go crazy or rot away in
isolation. Some might need isolation for just a period of time. An
hour or a day or a week or a month or a year. Who really knows what
they need, other than the person himself, and maybe a mother who is
truly listening to her maternal instinct? I'm not saying that
unschooling is about isolating our kids, but that if we're trusting
our kids to know what they need, and they seem to be needing more
isolation, then I say give them isolation.
It all comes down to really getting to know our kids though, and
really learning to listen to our instincts (and knowing the
difference between instincts and fears) and trusting them. We can't
really know if our kids are stuck, depressed and in a state of
entropy or if they're simply thriving in their isolation if we don't
know the kids well.
and if what we're doing does
> have SOME expectation of helping a child gather the information heneeds to
> have some equivalent to the education voters have decided (howeverindirectly)
> that people in their state should have by the time they're 18,then yes,
> introversion can be very bad.The people in their state don't know each child individually, so how
could they possibly know what each child needs to know by the time
they're 18? Even the child might not know what he needs to know by
the time he's 18, but if he's trusted to be a whole person and to
listen to himself and know what he needs, then he will have
everything that he needs by the time he's 18. Even if that's
different than what "the people in their state" say he needs to
know.
There are people in a lot of states that say a child should know how
to read by the time he's 6 or 7 or at the latest 8. Yet lots of
unschooled kids learn to read later than that. Lots of would-be-
unschoolers lose their nerve to unschool when their 8 or 9 year old
still isn't reading and they listen to the fear in their heads that
tells them that their child needs something more and they make them
sit down for reading lessons. Isn't that fear of a child not knowing
how to read similar to a fear that a child is not going out enough?
Just on a different level or to a different degree?
> Yes, unless his personality is going to keep unschooling fromworking well
> enough to be an honest, legitimate alternative to school.Can anyone ever have a personality that keeps unschooling from
working well? One of the things that I really like about unschooling
is that it allows people to be whoever they are, and it allows that
to shine. I've seen how not allowing people to be who they are can
really lead to some difficult emotional issues, so I really like that
with unschooling we can just trust that no matter what the
personality, the child is accepted as he is and allowed to be that.
If we say that some kids should be pushed out of their personalities
because they aren't good personalities for unschooling, then it's not
true that we can trust children (and people in general) to learn what
they need to learn. Then it would only be true that we can trust
SOME people to learn what they need to learn and the whole theory of
unschooling has just been shot down because we can no longer be sure
that we can trust our kids.
And one of the
> questions asked seemed to lean toward what if the parents andchildren are all
> introverts and are happy being home and not talking about it?I guess my answer would depend on knowing WHY they're not talking
about it. Because if they're not talking about it because they're
afraid or insecure or hiding some kind of emotional pain, then
they're not really happy. But if they are really happy and whole,
then a family of introverts who are really happy and whole being home
seems like a perfectly okay thing to me.
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/8/2005 1:34:34 PM Mountain Standard Time,
sheran@... writes:
So I think it's up to every woman to decide for herself what exactly
she's feeling and why.
----------------------
To "decide"?
Or to keep trying to learn to know?
The first, lots of people have decided they think they know what they're
feeling and why, only to express much sorrow later over having deluded
themselves or lived in justification or in doing what their mothers wanted them to do.
There are people who come to these lists who are really terrified of defying
their mothers, even though THEY are mothers with children. Have they
decided for themselves what exactly they're feeling and why? Sometimes they don't
even see what they're writing.
-=- I'm not saying that
unschooling is about isolating our kids, but that if we're trusting
our kids to know what they need, and they seem to be needing more
isolation, then I say give them isolation.
-=-
Isolation comes from outside. Isolation is something that is done to
someone by someone else. Isolation is done to fundamentalist homeschoolers whose
parents sometimes don't even want them going to church, but they "home church"
too. That's what you'll pull up when you combine homeschooling+isolation.
-=-There are people in a lot of states that say a child should know how
to read by the time he's 6 or 7 or at the latest 8. Yet lots of
unschooled kids learn to read later than that. -=-
MOST Of the kids in school learn to read much later than that, if they were
to define reading the way I do. But in school, those who can't read were
just uncooperative or learning disabled or had parents who were insufficiently
involved. It's never the school's fault.
-=- Lots of would-be-
unschoolers lose their nerve to unschool when their 8 or 9 year old
still isn't reading and they listen to the fear in their heads that
tells them that their child needs something more and they make them
sit down for reading lessons. -=-
Yes,and people here and in other unschooling places are able to help them
through those fears.
-=-Isn't that fear of a child not knowing
how to read similar to a fear that a child is not going out enough?
Just on a different level or to a different degree? -=-
No.
When a child learns to read, you both know it, because he's reading.
If a family decides when a child is 15 that it might've been WAY better for
unschooling if they had done a lot more sooner, it will be too late. If the
relationship between the parents and children withers because the parents
weren't engaging enough and so the child doesn't have an easy conversant
relationship, and they're out of the habit of being together and learning together,
their unschooling won't be the best it could be.
If people are wanting this list to put a stamp of approval on bare-minimal
unschooling, it's not going to come from me. I have zero interest in making
people feel better about doing less, personally.
In any case in which the parents aren't worried and the children are happy,
none of this conversation matters at all.
-=-Can anyone ever have a personality that keeps unschooling from
working well? -=-
Bigtime.
Parents who are negative and whiney and ashamed of curiosity and have no
interest in learning are going to be crap at unschooling. People who are mean
and violent and think children are to be seen and not heard, who were abused
as children and haven't even begun to deal with that emotionally shouldn't
unschool. Their kids will probably be safer and better off in school.
-=- I've seen how not allowing people to be who they are can
really lead to some difficult emotional issues, so I really like that
with unschooling we can just trust that no matter what the
personality, the child is accepted as he is and allowed to be that.
-=-
That sounds good, and in ideal circumstances it's great.
Some families don't have ideal circumstances, and unschooling won't work for
them.
-=-If we say that some kids should be pushed out of their personalities
because they aren't good personalities for unschooling, then it's not
true that we can trust children (and people in general) to learn what
they need to learn.-=-
I think all children can learn through unschooling, I don't think all
parents are suited to being unschooling parents.
It is possible that a child will already be so brainwashed by the age of ten
or twelve that he can't undo school. If he would rather be in school and is
thoroughly convinced that school is the only place he can learn, then I
think the parents should let him stay in school. I think having a child
homeschooled against his will is as bad as a kid being in school against his will,
who wants out.
And if a child wants out of school and the parents say, "Yes, sure, we will
commit to this," then I think the child should be willing to DO things in lieu
of school and the parents, too, should be very active in that child's life,
and not just go home and shut the door and live a drab, negative life.
-=-Then it would only be true that we can trust
SOME people to learn what they need to learn and the whole theory of
unschooling has just been shot down because we can no longer be sure
that we can trust our kids. -=-
You have never read any long-years-experienced unschooler say that the
schools should be abolished and everyone should unschool. The thousands of hours
of writing that's been put in here, unschooling.com and various other places
has stressed that it takes a LOT of change and awareness on the part of the
parents to do this. And it takes deschooling on the part of the child and of
the parents. It's not easy. It's not something just anyone can do. And
half-assed isn't good enough.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheran@... writes:
So I think it's up to every woman to decide for herself what exactly
she's feeling and why.
----------------------
To "decide"?
Or to keep trying to learn to know?
The first, lots of people have decided they think they know what they're
feeling and why, only to express much sorrow later over having deluded
themselves or lived in justification or in doing what their mothers wanted them to do.
There are people who come to these lists who are really terrified of defying
their mothers, even though THEY are mothers with children. Have they
decided for themselves what exactly they're feeling and why? Sometimes they don't
even see what they're writing.
-=- I'm not saying that
unschooling is about isolating our kids, but that if we're trusting
our kids to know what they need, and they seem to be needing more
isolation, then I say give them isolation.
-=-
Isolation comes from outside. Isolation is something that is done to
someone by someone else. Isolation is done to fundamentalist homeschoolers whose
parents sometimes don't even want them going to church, but they "home church"
too. That's what you'll pull up when you combine homeschooling+isolation.
-=-There are people in a lot of states that say a child should know how
to read by the time he's 6 or 7 or at the latest 8. Yet lots of
unschooled kids learn to read later than that. -=-
MOST Of the kids in school learn to read much later than that, if they were
to define reading the way I do. But in school, those who can't read were
just uncooperative or learning disabled or had parents who were insufficiently
involved. It's never the school's fault.
-=- Lots of would-be-
unschoolers lose their nerve to unschool when their 8 or 9 year old
still isn't reading and they listen to the fear in their heads that
tells them that their child needs something more and they make them
sit down for reading lessons. -=-
Yes,and people here and in other unschooling places are able to help them
through those fears.
-=-Isn't that fear of a child not knowing
how to read similar to a fear that a child is not going out enough?
Just on a different level or to a different degree? -=-
No.
When a child learns to read, you both know it, because he's reading.
If a family decides when a child is 15 that it might've been WAY better for
unschooling if they had done a lot more sooner, it will be too late. If the
relationship between the parents and children withers because the parents
weren't engaging enough and so the child doesn't have an easy conversant
relationship, and they're out of the habit of being together and learning together,
their unschooling won't be the best it could be.
If people are wanting this list to put a stamp of approval on bare-minimal
unschooling, it's not going to come from me. I have zero interest in making
people feel better about doing less, personally.
In any case in which the parents aren't worried and the children are happy,
none of this conversation matters at all.
-=-Can anyone ever have a personality that keeps unschooling from
working well? -=-
Bigtime.
Parents who are negative and whiney and ashamed of curiosity and have no
interest in learning are going to be crap at unschooling. People who are mean
and violent and think children are to be seen and not heard, who were abused
as children and haven't even begun to deal with that emotionally shouldn't
unschool. Their kids will probably be safer and better off in school.
-=- I've seen how not allowing people to be who they are can
really lead to some difficult emotional issues, so I really like that
with unschooling we can just trust that no matter what the
personality, the child is accepted as he is and allowed to be that.
-=-
That sounds good, and in ideal circumstances it's great.
Some families don't have ideal circumstances, and unschooling won't work for
them.
-=-If we say that some kids should be pushed out of their personalities
because they aren't good personalities for unschooling, then it's not
true that we can trust children (and people in general) to learn what
they need to learn.-=-
I think all children can learn through unschooling, I don't think all
parents are suited to being unschooling parents.
It is possible that a child will already be so brainwashed by the age of ten
or twelve that he can't undo school. If he would rather be in school and is
thoroughly convinced that school is the only place he can learn, then I
think the parents should let him stay in school. I think having a child
homeschooled against his will is as bad as a kid being in school against his will,
who wants out.
And if a child wants out of school and the parents say, "Yes, sure, we will
commit to this," then I think the child should be willing to DO things in lieu
of school and the parents, too, should be very active in that child's life,
and not just go home and shut the door and live a drab, negative life.
-=-Then it would only be true that we can trust
SOME people to learn what they need to learn and the whole theory of
unschooling has just been shot down because we can no longer be sure
that we can trust our kids. -=-
You have never read any long-years-experienced unschooler say that the
schools should be abolished and everyone should unschool. The thousands of hours
of writing that's been put in here, unschooling.com and various other places
has stressed that it takes a LOT of change and awareness on the part of the
parents to do this. And it takes deschooling on the part of the child and of
the parents. It's not easy. It's not something just anyone can do. And
half-assed isn't good enough.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
> So I think it's up to every woman to decide for herself whatexactly
> she's feeling and why.Decide wasn't the best word I could have used. I meant to look down
>
> To "decide"?
> Or to keep trying to learn to know?
deep inside of herself and find exactly what she's feeling and why.
> -=- I'm not saying thattrusting
> unschooling is about isolating our kids, but that if we're
> our kids to know what they need, and they seem to be needing moreto
> isolation, then I say give them isolation.
> -=-
>
> Isolation comes from outside. Isolation is something that is done
> someone by someone else.Okay. I wasn't considering isolation as necessarily something done
to someone by someone else. I was thinking more along the lines of
seclusion. Not someone secluding someone else against his will, but
someone desiring to be alone a lot. If someone craves seclusion,
then I think we should honor his desire to be alone.
And yet I agree that sometimes it looks like seclusion is what
someone wants but it's just that we haven't done enough to get
through and develop a good relationship with him or provide him just
the right thing that he needs.
Deciding which exactly is needed is difficult sometimes and I don't
think we should take it lightly.
Isolation is done to fundamentalist homeschoolers whose
> parents sometimes don't even want them going to church, butthey "home church"
> too. That's what you'll pull up when you combinehomeschooling+isolation.
I certainly didn't mean that!
> If a family decides when a child is 15 that it might've been WAYbetter for
> unschooling if they had done a lot more sooner, it will be toolate.
I have had friends who don't agree with unschooling say a similar
thing to me about school subjects. They say stuff like, "What if
when they're adults they wish you would have taught them math and
reading more formally and at an earlier age? What if you realize too
late that you were wrong about not sending them to school?"
Are you saying that we can trust a child to learn to read when he's
ready but we can't always trust a child to know how social he should
be?
If the
> relationship between the parents and children withers because theparents
> weren't engaging enough and so the child doesn't have an easyconversant
> relationship, and they're out of the habit of being together andlearning together,
> their unschooling won't be the best it could be.It seems like I'm arguing a lot but the thing is I agree with you. I
just find myself saying yes, "but" after a lot of things. I agree
BUT I think we have to allow for some uncommon, even difficult
personalities to be who they are even when who they are doesn't
produce lives that look like what other unschoolers are doing.
Having a good relationship with our kids is very, very important and
we should do as much as we can to cultivate it.
I'm really glad my kids and I do have an easy conversant
relationship, and I can't imagine being happy with anything less. I
have read about people who are people of few words though, who only
speak when they must. I don't know if that's a normal personality
trait or something else. If it is a normal personality trait then
I'd say that it's okay for the person to be a person of few words.
It can't be wrong to be who you are.
I'm guessing that if someone is a person has a personality that's
very non-conversant that he's not going to do very well in school
either.
> If people are wanting this list to put a stamp of approval on bare-minimal
> unschooling, it's not going to come from me. I have zero interestin making
> people feel better about doing less, personally.I'm certainly not advocating bare-minimal unschooling. I'm simply
saying that we should give the child what he wants even when what he
wants is a lot of solitude.
> In any case in which the parents aren't worried and the childrenare happy,
> none of this conversation matters at all.This is another "yes but" thing for me. I'd say yes, BUT maybe the
parents are worried for the wrong reason. Or maybe the kid is happy
but because the parents don't understand his personality and can't
imagine how anyone could be happy living life the way the child has
chosen to live it, the parents could perceive a child as being
unhappy when he really isn't.
I'm not saying that's how it's usually going to be. What's usually
going to be is what you're saying. That a parent just hasn't worked
hard enough to develop a good relationship and hasn't done enough of
the right thing to expose them to enough things, and just needs to
work harder. My "but" is that there could be exceptions and that
because there could be exceptions, a parent needs to look at his
family's unique personalities and situations and figure out if it's a
case of the parent not doing enough or a case of the kid not needing
more or maybe a unique combination of both.
> -=-Can anyone ever have a personality that keeps unschooling fromhave no
> working well? -=-
>
> Bigtime.
>
> Parents who are negative and whiney and ashamed of curiosity and
> interest in learning are going to be crap at unschooling. Peoplewho are mean
> and violent and think children are to be seen and not heard, whowere abused
> as children and haven't even begun to deal with that emotionallyshouldn't
> unschool. Their kids will probably be safer and better off inschool.
But most of that isn't personality. Most of that is attitude that
they've developed from some situation that isn't representative of
who they really are deep down inside.
> I think all children can learn through unschooling, I don't thinkall
> parents are suited to being unschooling parents.Yep. I know parents like that. But they could be good unschooling
parents if they'd be willing to do the mental/emotional work required
to unschool well.
> It is possible that a child will already be so brainwashed by theage of ten
> or twelve that he can't undo school. If he would rather be inschool and is
> thoroughly convinced that school is the only place he can learn,then I
> think the parents should let him stay in school. I think having achild
> homeschooled against his will is as bad as a kid being in schoolagainst his will,
> who wants out.Yep.
> And if a child wants out of school and the parents say, "Yes, sure,we will
> commit to this," then I think the child should be willing to DOthings in lieu
> of school and the parents, too, should be very active in thatchild's life,
> and not just go home and shut the door and live a drab, negativelife.
Right, but a child who's been forced to be in school might have some
healing to do and might need to do what looks like brooding and being
negative for awhile. Maybe not most kids and maybe not usually, but
people heal and deal with things in different ways.
> -=-Then it would only be true that we can trustof
> SOME people to learn what they need to learn and the whole theory
> unschooling has just been shot down because we can no longer besure
> that we can trust our kids. -=-the
>
> You have never read any long-years-experienced unschooler say that
> schools should be abolished and everyone should unschool.The topic of abolishing schools is a completely different topic
altogether. I'm just saying that if we're going to trust our kids,
it could be that sometimes our kids might be desiring what looks to
us like "not enough". Some people might worry about not enough
reading, others might worry about not enough social activity, others
might worry about not enough conversation.
The thousands of hours
> of writing that's been put in here, unschooling.com and variousother places
> has stressed that it takes a LOT of change and awareness on thepart of the
> parents to do this. And it takes deschooling on the part of thechild and of
> the parents. It's not easy.I agree 100%.
It's not something just anyone can do. And
> half-assed isn't good enough.I don't think half-assed is good enough either.
Sheila
Patti Diamondlady Diamond, SCHM
I agree that if we are to give our children the freedom, time, and
space to know what they need and then trust that this is what they
need, then if being as what is deemed by sociey as "introverted" is
what suits them and is who they wish to be, then we should allow our
children to be who they wish to be, not attempting to "change" them.
As we cannot change others, we can only change ourselves and our
reactions to others.
Because honestly, I think that my children prefer to be with others in
smaller groups and at times just on their own. And personally, I do
not see anything "wrong" with this, although I know as a societal
whole it is considered to be "bad".
They learn well and interact with smaller groups of people, and I do
not think in the name of broadening their worldly scope so to speak
that I would ever consider forcing them into being "out there" more or
"doing" more or "being" more active than they wish to be. I might
suggest or other these types of broader means in an attempt to show
them another view of life or something that they may wish to learn
possibly, but never force them for the sake of trying to "change" them.
Introverted or extoverted, I think these are labels that we give toour
children to attempt to classify them as somehow "good" or "bad". Good
supposedly being extroverted by societal standards and introverted as
somehow that something is "wrong" with our children if they are.
Why can society not let our children just be who they are? Children,
people in society carving out their own way in life!:)
In Love and Light,
Patti Diamond and the boys (Life Long Learners Chris 13 1/2, Matthew
8, Anthony 7)
Life Long Learning Academy
JUST PUBLISHED!! "Life Long Learning ~ Transforming Learning -
Discovering Learning Through Living Life in Unlimitless Possibilities"
http://www.lifelonglearning4all.com
http://www.diamondlady.net
space to know what they need and then trust that this is what they
need, then if being as what is deemed by sociey as "introverted" is
what suits them and is who they wish to be, then we should allow our
children to be who they wish to be, not attempting to "change" them.
As we cannot change others, we can only change ourselves and our
reactions to others.
Because honestly, I think that my children prefer to be with others in
smaller groups and at times just on their own. And personally, I do
not see anything "wrong" with this, although I know as a societal
whole it is considered to be "bad".
They learn well and interact with smaller groups of people, and I do
not think in the name of broadening their worldly scope so to speak
that I would ever consider forcing them into being "out there" more or
"doing" more or "being" more active than they wish to be. I might
suggest or other these types of broader means in an attempt to show
them another view of life or something that they may wish to learn
possibly, but never force them for the sake of trying to "change" them.
Introverted or extoverted, I think these are labels that we give toour
children to attempt to classify them as somehow "good" or "bad". Good
supposedly being extroverted by societal standards and introverted as
somehow that something is "wrong" with our children if they are.
Why can society not let our children just be who they are? Children,
people in society carving out their own way in life!:)
In Love and Light,
Patti Diamond and the boys (Life Long Learners Chris 13 1/2, Matthew
8, Anthony 7)
Life Long Learning Academy
JUST PUBLISHED!! "Life Long Learning ~ Transforming Learning -
Discovering Learning Through Living Life in Unlimitless Possibilities"
http://www.lifelonglearning4all.com
http://www.diamondlady.net
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/8/2005 1:34:34 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> sheran@p... writes:
>
> So I think it's up to every woman to decide for herself what exactly
> she's feeling and why.
>
>
> ----------------------
>
> To "decide"?
> Or to keep trying to learn to know?
>
> The first, lots of people have decided they think they know what
they're
> feeling and why, only to express much sorrow later over having deluded
> themselves or lived in justification or in doing what their mothers
wanted them to do.
>
> There are people who come to these lists who are really terrified of
defying
> their mothers, even though THEY are mothers with children. Have they
> decided for themselves what exactly they're feeling and why?
Sometimes they don't
> even see what they're writing.
>
> -=- I'm not saying that
> unschooling is about isolating our kids, but that if we're trusting
> our kids to know what they need, and they seem to be needing more
> isolation, then I say give them isolation.
> -=-
>
> Isolation comes from outside. Isolation is something that is done to
> someone by someone else. Isolation is done to fundamentalist
homeschoolers whose
> parents sometimes don't even want them going to church, but they
"home church"
> too. That's what you'll pull up when you combine
homeschooling+isolation.
>
> -=-There are people in a lot of states that say a child should know
how
> to read by the time he's 6 or 7 or at the latest 8. Yet lots of
> unschooled kids learn to read later than that. -=-
>
> MOST Of the kids in school learn to read much later than that, if
they were
> to define reading the way I do. But in school, those who can't read
were
> just uncooperative or learning disabled or had parents who were
insufficiently
> involved. It's never the school's fault.
>
> -=- Lots of would-be-
> unschoolers lose their nerve to unschool when their 8 or 9 year old
> still isn't reading and they listen to the fear in their heads that
> tells them that their child needs something more and they make them
> sit down for reading lessons. -=-
>
> Yes,and people here and in other unschooling places are able to help
them
> through those fears.
>
> -=-Isn't that fear of a child not knowing
> how to read similar to a fear that a child is not going out enough?
> Just on a different level or to a different degree? -=-
>
> No.
> When a child learns to read, you both know it, because he's reading.
>
> If a family decides when a child is 15 that it might've been WAY
better for
> unschooling if they had done a lot more sooner, it will be too
late. If the
> relationship between the parents and children withers because the
parents
> weren't engaging enough and so the child doesn't have an easy
conversant
> relationship, and they're out of the habit of being together and
learning together,
> their unschooling won't be the best it could be.
>
> If people are wanting this list to put a stamp of approval on
bare-minimal
> unschooling, it's not going to come from me. I have zero interest in
making
> people feel better about doing less, personally.
>
> In any case in which the parents aren't worried and the children are
happy,
> none of this conversation matters at all.
>
> -=-Can anyone ever have a personality that keeps unschooling from
> working well? -=-
>
> Bigtime.
>
> Parents who are negative and whiney and ashamed of curiosity and
have no
> interest in learning are going to be crap at unschooling. People
who are mean
> and violent and think children are to be seen and not heard, who
were abused
> as children and haven't even begun to deal with that emotionally
shouldn't
> unschool. Their kids will probably be safer and better off in school.
>
> -=- I've seen how not allowing people to be who they are can
> really lead to some difficult emotional issues, so I really like that
> with unschooling we can just trust that no matter what the
> personality, the child is accepted as he is and allowed to be that.
> -=-
>
> That sounds good, and in ideal circumstances it's great.
>
> Some families don't have ideal circumstances, and unschooling won't
work for
> them.
>
> -=-If we say that some kids should be pushed out of their
personalities
> because they aren't good personalities for unschooling, then it's not
> true that we can trust children (and people in general) to learn what
> they need to learn.-=-
>
> I think all children can learn through unschooling, I don't think all
> parents are suited to being unschooling parents.
>
> It is possible that a child will already be so brainwashed by the
age of ten
> or twelve that he can't undo school. If he would rather be in
school and is
> thoroughly convinced that school is the only place he can learn,
then I
> think the parents should let him stay in school. I think having a
child
> homeschooled against his will is as bad as a kid being in school
against his will,
> who wants out.
>
> And if a child wants out of school and the parents say, "Yes, sure,
we will
> commit to this," then I think the child should be willing to DO
things in lieu
> of school and the parents, too, should be very active in that
child's life,
> and not just go home and shut the door and live a drab, negative life.
>
> -=-Then it would only be true that we can trust
> SOME people to learn what they need to learn and the whole theory of
> unschooling has just been shot down because we can no longer be sure
> that we can trust our kids. -=-
>
> You have never read any long-years-experienced unschooler say that the
> schools should be abolished and everyone should unschool. The
thousands of hours
> of writing that's been put in here, unschooling.com and various
other places
> has stressed that it takes a LOT of change and awareness on the
part of the
> parents to do this. And it takes deschooling on the part of the
child and of
> the parents. It's not easy. It's not something just anyone can
do. And
> half-assed isn't good enough.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 8, 2005, at 12:28 PM, kayb85 wrote:
environment. I think human children are born with an urge to learn
about the world, but parents, who have all kinds of baggage from THEIR
own childhoods, might not be able to create an environment that is
stimulating and enriching.
is not going to have the same opportunities to discover his own
interests and passions as a kid living in a house with many varied
resources and who gets out of the house and is exposed to a variety of
opportunities to learn about all kinds of things.
-pam
> If we say that some kids should be pushed out of their personalitiesI don't think you can trust children to learn in a deprived
> because they aren't good personalities for unschooling, then it's not
> true that we can trust children (and people in general) to learn what
> they need to learn.
environment. I think human children are born with an urge to learn
about the world, but parents, who have all kinds of baggage from THEIR
own childhoods, might not be able to create an environment that is
stimulating and enriching.
> Then it would only be true that we can trustClearly a kid cooped up in the house with always the same few resources
> SOME people to learn what they need to learn and the whole theory of
> unschooling has just been shot down because we can no longer be sure
> that we can trust our kids.
is not going to have the same opportunities to discover his own
interests and passions as a kid living in a house with many varied
resources and who gets out of the house and is exposed to a variety of
opportunities to learn about all kinds of things.
-pam
Patti Diamondlady Diamond, SCHM
Pam,
I would agree with you. But I think I would also add though that some
people may not have the financial resources or the research skills as
parents to help facillitate an exposure to learning outside of the home.
I believe that this is where we as the people who have the resources,
support, and guidance, that it is our job to step up to the plate and
help them, as we on this list and on many others have and are doing
just that!:)
Love and Light,
Patti Diamond and the boys (Life Long Learners Chris 13 1/2, Matthew
8, Anthony 7)
Life Long Learning Academy
JUST PUBLISHED!! "Life Long Learning ~ Transforming Learning -
Discovering Learning Through Living Life in Unlimitless Possibilities"
http://www.lifelonglearning4all.com
http://www.diamondlady.net
*NOTE - Look for me to speak on Life Long Learning at the CHN
Homelearning Expo June 10-11, 2005. For more information, go to
http://www.californiahomeschool.net See you there! *
"For no matter where knowledge and learning come from - no matter what
shape, size, or dimension it assumes - it still is what it is,
knowledge and learning. Therefore knowledge and learning should always
be embraced." ~ unknown
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
I would agree with you. But I think I would also add though that some
people may not have the financial resources or the research skills as
parents to help facillitate an exposure to learning outside of the home.
I believe that this is where we as the people who have the resources,
support, and guidance, that it is our job to step up to the plate and
help them, as we on this list and on many others have and are doing
just that!:)
Love and Light,
Patti Diamond and the boys (Life Long Learners Chris 13 1/2, Matthew
8, Anthony 7)
Life Long Learning Academy
JUST PUBLISHED!! "Life Long Learning ~ Transforming Learning -
Discovering Learning Through Living Life in Unlimitless Possibilities"
http://www.lifelonglearning4all.com
http://www.diamondlady.net
*NOTE - Look for me to speak on Life Long Learning at the CHN
Homelearning Expo June 10-11, 2005. For more information, go to
http://www.californiahomeschool.net See you there! *
"For no matter where knowledge and learning come from - no matter what
shape, size, or dimension it assumes - it still is what it is,
knowledge and learning. Therefore knowledge and learning should always
be embraced." ~ unknown
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
>
> On Mar 8, 2005, at 12:28 PM, kayb85 wrote:
>
> > If we say that some kids should be pushed out of their personalities
> > because they aren't good personalities for unschooling, then it's not
> > true that we can trust children (and people in general) to learn what
> > they need to learn.
>
> I don't think you can trust children to learn in a deprived
> environment. I think human children are born with an urge to learn
> about the world, but parents, who have all kinds of baggage from THEIR
> own childhoods, might not be able to create an environment that is
> stimulating and enriching.
>
> > Then it would only be true that we can trust
> > SOME people to learn what they need to learn and the whole theory of
> > unschooling has just been shot down because we can no longer be sure
> > that we can trust our kids.
>
> Clearly a kid cooped up in the house with always the same few resources
> is not going to have the same opportunities to discover his own
> interests and passions as a kid living in a house with many varied
> resources and who gets out of the house and is exposed to a variety of
> opportunities to learn about all kinds of things.
>
> -pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/9/2005 12:57:58 AM Mountain Standard Time,
sheran@... writes:
-=-> If a family decides when a child is 15 that it might've been WAY
better for
-=-I have had friends who don't agree with unschooling say a similar
thing to me about school subjects. They say stuff like, "What if
when they're adults they wish you would have taught them math and
reading more formally and at an earlier age? What if you realize too
late that you were wrong about not sending them to school?" -=-
---------------------------------------
There are classes and books for learning to do math which are ONLY aimed
toward adults. Kirby's taking math 099, and having started without any
knowledge of formal mathematical notation he's getting an A after six weeks or so.
Kirby's 18. Whatever I wish I had done with the ten year old Kirby or the
12 year old Kirby, it's too late. Those days are gone.
Math and reading are skills kids can gain.
Freedom and a childhood relationship with a mother and the ability to learn
naturally as a child are NOT things that can be gained as adults.
-=-Are you saying that we can trust a child to learn to read when he's
ready but we can't always trust a child to know how social he should
be? -=-
I'm not talking about "being social." I'm talking about exposure to the
world. A person can go to a museum or a movie without chatting with others. A
mom can enrich the home environment without throwing parties.
-=-It seems like I'm arguing a lot but the thing is I agree with you. I
just find myself saying yes, "but" after a lot of things. -=-
It seems your defending people settling for bare-minimum effort and
activity. It sounds like you're justifying people doing a half-assed job of
unschooling. I don't guess you mean to do that, but it seems like it.
-=- I have read about people who are people of few words though, who only
speak when they must. I don't know if that's a normal personality
trait or something else. If it is a normal personality trait then
I'd say that it's okay for the person to be a person of few words.
It can't be wrong to be who you are. -=-
If there are enough factors that a family isn't unschooling well, then they
should put their kids in school.
Nobody here is authorized to let anyone off the hook about compulsory
education laws. All of us put together can't save ONE FAMILY from the place where
they live if they are found to just be cruising in some lazy, avoidant
fashion. I'm really unlikely to get in trouble, as my kids are doing well and
would impress any government officials who might question them about their lives,
if we had somone complain about us.
I can't and wouldn't try to defend a family that had said, "Well, I made
some offers, but my kids weren't interested, so I just let them stay home in
their rooms because that's how they are."
Unschooling is one possible way to homeschool. Homeschooling is one
possible way for people to fulfill state requirements. If people can't do it, they
can't and shouldn't. If they DO want to do it, it's an active and difficult
way of life that can't be sloughed off until maybe a few years from now. It
has to be done and done right and well, or it's just neglect.
When people come here and say "Unschooling is just neglect," I'd like to say
"No, neglect isn't unschooling."
It seems there are people in this conversation suggesting that neglect is
unschooling.
I'd like for those few people to stop doing that on this list. If you want
to start another list for "unschooling is whatever the hell you want it to be
and introverted kids shouldn't ever be stimulated beyond their comfort at the
moment," it's really easy to start a yahoolist.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheran@... writes:
-=-> If a family decides when a child is 15 that it might've been WAY
better for
> unschooling if they had done a lot more sooner, it will be toolate.
-=-I have had friends who don't agree with unschooling say a similar
thing to me about school subjects. They say stuff like, "What if
when they're adults they wish you would have taught them math and
reading more formally and at an earlier age? What if you realize too
late that you were wrong about not sending them to school?" -=-
---------------------------------------
There are classes and books for learning to do math which are ONLY aimed
toward adults. Kirby's taking math 099, and having started without any
knowledge of formal mathematical notation he's getting an A after six weeks or so.
Kirby's 18. Whatever I wish I had done with the ten year old Kirby or the
12 year old Kirby, it's too late. Those days are gone.
Math and reading are skills kids can gain.
Freedom and a childhood relationship with a mother and the ability to learn
naturally as a child are NOT things that can be gained as adults.
-=-Are you saying that we can trust a child to learn to read when he's
ready but we can't always trust a child to know how social he should
be? -=-
I'm not talking about "being social." I'm talking about exposure to the
world. A person can go to a museum or a movie without chatting with others. A
mom can enrich the home environment without throwing parties.
-=-It seems like I'm arguing a lot but the thing is I agree with you. I
just find myself saying yes, "but" after a lot of things. -=-
It seems your defending people settling for bare-minimum effort and
activity. It sounds like you're justifying people doing a half-assed job of
unschooling. I don't guess you mean to do that, but it seems like it.
-=- I have read about people who are people of few words though, who only
speak when they must. I don't know if that's a normal personality
trait or something else. If it is a normal personality trait then
I'd say that it's okay for the person to be a person of few words.
It can't be wrong to be who you are. -=-
If there are enough factors that a family isn't unschooling well, then they
should put their kids in school.
Nobody here is authorized to let anyone off the hook about compulsory
education laws. All of us put together can't save ONE FAMILY from the place where
they live if they are found to just be cruising in some lazy, avoidant
fashion. I'm really unlikely to get in trouble, as my kids are doing well and
would impress any government officials who might question them about their lives,
if we had somone complain about us.
I can't and wouldn't try to defend a family that had said, "Well, I made
some offers, but my kids weren't interested, so I just let them stay home in
their rooms because that's how they are."
Unschooling is one possible way to homeschool. Homeschooling is one
possible way for people to fulfill state requirements. If people can't do it, they
can't and shouldn't. If they DO want to do it, it's an active and difficult
way of life that can't be sloughed off until maybe a few years from now. It
has to be done and done right and well, or it's just neglect.
When people come here and say "Unschooling is just neglect," I'd like to say
"No, neglect isn't unschooling."
It seems there are people in this conversation suggesting that neglect is
unschooling.
I'd like for those few people to stop doing that on this list. If you want
to start another list for "unschooling is whatever the hell you want it to be
and introverted kids shouldn't ever be stimulated beyond their comfort at the
moment," it's really easy to start a yahoolist.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/7/2005 10:27:13 PM Central Standard Time,
jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
Its
easier to do "schoolish"
~~~
Broaden your definition of schoolish. Then, take the activity that you
included in that definition and tell Jim about it in his narrow definition's
terms. You know, educationese.
Julie, you're one of the most well-read on the topic of home/unschooling
people I know. You know how to do this. Just do it. ;)
Love,
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
Its
easier to do "schoolish"
~~~
Broaden your definition of schoolish. Then, take the activity that you
included in that definition and tell Jim about it in his narrow definition's
terms. You know, educationese.
Julie, you're one of the most well-read on the topic of home/unschooling
people I know. You know how to do this. Just do it. ;)
Love,
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/9/2005 12:57:58 AM Mountain Standard Time,
sheran@... writes:
But most of that isn't personality. Most of that is attitude that
they've developed from some situation that isn't representative of
who they really are deep down inside.
----------------------
Then either they can't unschool, or they need to start NOW, right now, not
tomorrow, recovering from their bad attutide and "situation."
If a family doesn't have the ease of communication to make unschooling work,
they shouldn't unschool.
If a parent's going to say, "This is just how I am, I have a RIGHT to be
angry and negative because of the ozone level and the war" then that person
should put the kids in school and stay home worrying about things she can't
change. At least maybe the kids will find friends at school or teachers who WILL
see them and be positive with them.
There are depressed and unfocussed parents who don't have the ability to
create a busy, happy, child-nurturing environment. But that's okay! They just
need to have other people teach their kids and not take on a project they
can't handle.
-=-Right, but a child who's been forced to be in school might have some
healing to do and might need to do what looks like brooding and being
negative for awhile. Maybe not most kids and maybe not usually, but
people heal and deal with things in different ways. -=-
They don't have ten years to heal. They have now. RIght now, get on it, or
don't try.
Just for a wild, made-up example, say a family used to eat out a lot, twice
a day or more, and if the kids had money and used to be able to get food out
of vending machines, but the family decides no, we're going to only eat at
home now. It will be fun! It will be healthier.
How long before they need to go grocery shopping?
How long before they really need to start preparing some food?
How long can they just not have any dishes to use, or a knife to cut cheese
and vegetables with?
Can the mom say "Well, I don't know how to cook, but my kids are NEVER going
to eat at restaurants again"?
Should the dad say, "We're saving a LOT of money not eating out. I'm going
to really think about how I want to do this food-at-home thing before we
invest any money in it."
They can't wait. They have to feed those kids right away, and often.
They had alternatives, but they made a choice.
Unschooling parents have alternatives. If they're going to unschool, they
need to DO it, not just be passive hopeful observers.
-=- I'm just saying that if we're going to trust our kids,
it could be that sometimes our kids might be desiring what looks to
us like "not enough". -=-
Given a rich environment and happy surroundings, I have confidence that any
child can and will learn. Given a dull environment and depressed or
uninvolved parents, no ability to get out and about, no new input, I have confidence
that a child could slow down and stop learning much at all.
"Trust our kids" doesn't work in a vacuum. That idea of trusting kids to
learn is entirely wrapped in the assumption of a happy, involving, rich
environment.
-=-The topic of abolishing schools is a completely different topic
altogether. =-
No it isn't. If unschooling doesn't even work for those family who
consciously choose it, it would be insane to suggest that MORE people try it. And it
is chosen because there are alternatives. There are public, private,
correspondence, and at-home school options. If someone is unschooling out of
laziness, it's not going to work. It will only work when the main unschooling
parent has the intent and ability to make life bigger and better than it would
have been without the plan to unschool, and bigger and better than it would be
with a curriculum, and bigger and better than school would have been.
-=-Some people might worry about not enough
reading, others might worry about not enough social activity, others
might worry about not enough conversation. -=-
I'm worried about moms who seem worried about not enough lively activity,
not enough learning.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheran@... writes:
But most of that isn't personality. Most of that is attitude that
they've developed from some situation that isn't representative of
who they really are deep down inside.
----------------------
Then either they can't unschool, or they need to start NOW, right now, not
tomorrow, recovering from their bad attutide and "situation."
If a family doesn't have the ease of communication to make unschooling work,
they shouldn't unschool.
If a parent's going to say, "This is just how I am, I have a RIGHT to be
angry and negative because of the ozone level and the war" then that person
should put the kids in school and stay home worrying about things she can't
change. At least maybe the kids will find friends at school or teachers who WILL
see them and be positive with them.
There are depressed and unfocussed parents who don't have the ability to
create a busy, happy, child-nurturing environment. But that's okay! They just
need to have other people teach their kids and not take on a project they
can't handle.
-=-Right, but a child who's been forced to be in school might have some
healing to do and might need to do what looks like brooding and being
negative for awhile. Maybe not most kids and maybe not usually, but
people heal and deal with things in different ways. -=-
They don't have ten years to heal. They have now. RIght now, get on it, or
don't try.
Just for a wild, made-up example, say a family used to eat out a lot, twice
a day or more, and if the kids had money and used to be able to get food out
of vending machines, but the family decides no, we're going to only eat at
home now. It will be fun! It will be healthier.
How long before they need to go grocery shopping?
How long before they really need to start preparing some food?
How long can they just not have any dishes to use, or a knife to cut cheese
and vegetables with?
Can the mom say "Well, I don't know how to cook, but my kids are NEVER going
to eat at restaurants again"?
Should the dad say, "We're saving a LOT of money not eating out. I'm going
to really think about how I want to do this food-at-home thing before we
invest any money in it."
They can't wait. They have to feed those kids right away, and often.
They had alternatives, but they made a choice.
Unschooling parents have alternatives. If they're going to unschool, they
need to DO it, not just be passive hopeful observers.
-=- I'm just saying that if we're going to trust our kids,
it could be that sometimes our kids might be desiring what looks to
us like "not enough". -=-
Given a rich environment and happy surroundings, I have confidence that any
child can and will learn. Given a dull environment and depressed or
uninvolved parents, no ability to get out and about, no new input, I have confidence
that a child could slow down and stop learning much at all.
"Trust our kids" doesn't work in a vacuum. That idea of trusting kids to
learn is entirely wrapped in the assumption of a happy, involving, rich
environment.
-=-The topic of abolishing schools is a completely different topic
altogether. =-
No it isn't. If unschooling doesn't even work for those family who
consciously choose it, it would be insane to suggest that MORE people try it. And it
is chosen because there are alternatives. There are public, private,
correspondence, and at-home school options. If someone is unschooling out of
laziness, it's not going to work. It will only work when the main unschooling
parent has the intent and ability to make life bigger and better than it would
have been without the plan to unschool, and bigger and better than it would be
with a curriculum, and bigger and better than school would have been.
-=-Some people might worry about not enough
reading, others might worry about not enough social activity, others
might worry about not enough conversation. -=-
I'm worried about moms who seem worried about not enough lively activity,
not enough learning.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/7/2005 10:27:13 PM Central Standard Time,
jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
because we just maybe the kind who really don't have tons of
cool conversations, or go to the museums, or on trips, or spend money on
stuff in the hopes that ds will not look at it and say "that looks
stupid, or boring or sucky".....
~~~
Julie, you and Josh are always in a power struggle over everything. I'm not
telling you something you don't already know. Stop caring about what he
thinks about things so much. Buy it, don't show it to him, put it on the shelf,
enjoy it yourself and don't worry about what he thinks. It's irrelavent.
I happen to know that Josh is capable of cool conversations. I had one with
him about his Benjamin Franklin action figure. And classical music! I've
seen him do improv on a stage with a big group of kids and I've seen him
participate in boffery with complicated rules. Maybe the reason he doesn't have
cool conversations with you is because you expect more than he wants to give.
The power struggle interferes. When you push, he pushes back. You're too
much alike.
Try not talking to him for a day. Be quiet and observe. Don't criticize.
Don't roll your eyes. Don't give it the old Al Gore sigh. Don't complain.
Don't condemn.* Create a vacuum. Not a punitive one, but one of open
acceptance of everything he wants or does, quietly, happily and without anxiety
about how or what he's doing. As if you're content with the world just the way
it is. And if you're not content, fake it until you make it.
Unplug from that power struggle, dear.
*Dale Carnegie, in How to Win Friends and Influence People: Never
criticize, condemn or complain.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
because we just maybe the kind who really don't have tons of
cool conversations, or go to the museums, or on trips, or spend money on
stuff in the hopes that ds will not look at it and say "that looks
stupid, or boring or sucky".....
~~~
Julie, you and Josh are always in a power struggle over everything. I'm not
telling you something you don't already know. Stop caring about what he
thinks about things so much. Buy it, don't show it to him, put it on the shelf,
enjoy it yourself and don't worry about what he thinks. It's irrelavent.
I happen to know that Josh is capable of cool conversations. I had one with
him about his Benjamin Franklin action figure. And classical music! I've
seen him do improv on a stage with a big group of kids and I've seen him
participate in boffery with complicated rules. Maybe the reason he doesn't have
cool conversations with you is because you expect more than he wants to give.
The power struggle interferes. When you push, he pushes back. You're too
much alike.
Try not talking to him for a day. Be quiet and observe. Don't criticize.
Don't roll your eyes. Don't give it the old Al Gore sigh. Don't complain.
Don't condemn.* Create a vacuum. Not a punitive one, but one of open
acceptance of everything he wants or does, quietly, happily and without anxiety
about how or what he's doing. As if you're content with the world just the way
it is. And if you're not content, fake it until you make it.
Unplug from that power struggle, dear.
*Dale Carnegie, in How to Win Friends and Influence People: Never
criticize, condemn or complain.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ruth
I can't and wouldn't try to defend a family that had said, "Well, I made
some offers, but my kids weren't interested, so I just let them stay home in
their rooms because that's how they are."
I agree with this. First I will introduce myself cos this is the 3rd time I have posted without saying who I am. I am Ruth, I unschool 7 kids between the ages of 6 year old twins up to a 15 old son in the UK. I joined this list to hear how others see unschooling. I have had a lot of flack for it and even had my mother complain about me to the education authority over it and had a social worker round as a result. The social worker was happy but relations with my mother ended over this and other things she had done. I know people like this whose kids sit around the house all day bored in the name of unschooling. They go nowhere and don't do very much in the home either. they complain to my kids about their lives. I find it hard to understand parents who think that doing absolutely nothing at all to create a stimulating atmosphere is unschooling. I think unschooling is harder than structured homeschooling cos it is harder to make opportunities to get a child's creativity going everyday than say sitting them down and say now we are doing maths for an hour. Some people don't see that. Unschooling was the hardest thing I have ever done cos I have had to let go of all my preconceived notions of how children learn and how I was taught and trust them to know what they need to know. Not what others think they should know.
Ruth
____________________________________________________________________________
This email and all attachments have been electronically scanned by Kingston
Communications' email Anti-Virus service and no known viruses were detected.
____________________________________________________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
some offers, but my kids weren't interested, so I just let them stay home in
their rooms because that's how they are."
I agree with this. First I will introduce myself cos this is the 3rd time I have posted without saying who I am. I am Ruth, I unschool 7 kids between the ages of 6 year old twins up to a 15 old son in the UK. I joined this list to hear how others see unschooling. I have had a lot of flack for it and even had my mother complain about me to the education authority over it and had a social worker round as a result. The social worker was happy but relations with my mother ended over this and other things she had done. I know people like this whose kids sit around the house all day bored in the name of unschooling. They go nowhere and don't do very much in the home either. they complain to my kids about their lives. I find it hard to understand parents who think that doing absolutely nothing at all to create a stimulating atmosphere is unschooling. I think unschooling is harder than structured homeschooling cos it is harder to make opportunities to get a child's creativity going everyday than say sitting them down and say now we are doing maths for an hour. Some people don't see that. Unschooling was the hardest thing I have ever done cos I have had to let go of all my preconceived notions of how children learn and how I was taught and trust them to know what they need to know. Not what others think they should know.
Ruth
____________________________________________________________________________
This email and all attachments have been electronically scanned by Kingston
Communications' email Anti-Virus service and no known viruses were detected.
____________________________________________________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]