usurping authority
[email protected]
It has taken years of conditioning to get my parents and MIL to this
point of leaving us alone...their training began the day my MIL fed my
exclusivly breast-fed, top of the chart 4 month old "cereal" when we
left him (along with bottles of breast milk) with her for 4 hours while
we went to dh's class reunion....she never tried to usurp our position
as parents again.
=============================
When I read things like that, I have sympathy for the
babysitter/in-law/parent.
I think feeding a four month old cereal was very bad, but as to "usurping
the position of parents," I think it's better to talk to the kids about dealing
with the relatives than to command the relatives to behave as we would.
If I ever babysit a grandkid and a parent uses his position to try to make
me spank or punish or put a child to bed in a dark room because the clock says
8:00, I will absolutely refuse to do it, even if they're paying me cash by
the hour.
If I babysit other people's kids and they tell me how their child is to be
treated to the minutest detail, they can take their kids on away with them,
because what they're really doing is leaving a child at MY house, where children
have survived and are happy. I would want a WHOLE lot of money per hour,
and to be in someone else's house to do the work, to follow someone else's
rules to the letter. A lot of money. Not less than $50 an hour to go against
my beliefs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
point of leaving us alone...their training began the day my MIL fed my
exclusivly breast-fed, top of the chart 4 month old "cereal" when we
left him (along with bottles of breast milk) with her for 4 hours while
we went to dh's class reunion....she never tried to usurp our position
as parents again.
=============================
When I read things like that, I have sympathy for the
babysitter/in-law/parent.
I think feeding a four month old cereal was very bad, but as to "usurping
the position of parents," I think it's better to talk to the kids about dealing
with the relatives than to command the relatives to behave as we would.
If I ever babysit a grandkid and a parent uses his position to try to make
me spank or punish or put a child to bed in a dark room because the clock says
8:00, I will absolutely refuse to do it, even if they're paying me cash by
the hour.
If I babysit other people's kids and they tell me how their child is to be
treated to the minutest detail, they can take their kids on away with them,
because what they're really doing is leaving a child at MY house, where children
have survived and are happy. I would want a WHOLE lot of money per hour,
and to be in someone else's house to do the work, to follow someone else's
rules to the letter. A lot of money. Not less than $50 an hour to go against
my beliefs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
juliewinar
> It has taken years of conditioning to get my parents and MIL to thiswhile
> point of leaving us alone...their training began the day my MIL fed my
> exclusivly breast-fed, top of the chart 4 month old "cereal" when we
> left him (along with bottles of breast milk) with her for 4 hours
> we went to dh's class reunion....she never tried to usurp our position"usurping the position of parents," I think it's better to talk to the
> as parents again.
>
>
> =============================
>
> When I read things like that, I have sympathy for the
> babysitter/in-law/parent.
>
> I think feeding a four month old cereal was very bad, but as to
kids about dealing with the relatives than to command the relatives to
behave as we would.
>Well a 4 month old can't really deal with a memaw who's spooning food
into his mounth instead of that bottle he'd rather have.
Of course this all had to do with the discussion about dyslexia and
ds's choice of using the word as a way to "deal" with relatives.
We are lot better now about not throwing ds into situations he would
not be able to deal with and with helping him workout how he will deal
with things that come up.
"Usurping" is probably not the best word and my "tounge-in-cheek" tone
(which was in my head when I wrote that) did not come across to well.
I can sound harsh at times.
I just feel so bad for folks when I read how relatives constantly
grill them on their lives and how they are raising/educating their
kids. Some parents and in-laws can be very contolling. It seems to be
a constant theme for homeschoolers and unschoolers alike. We do not
have that problem, from a woman who can be quite controlling with her
other sons wives, and I think it all stems back to that 1st incident.
Its strange, she and I have a better relationship (what little there
is) then she has with any of the other DILs.
The truth is ds did not suffer any ill effects from the food and in
hindsight there were other choices I could have made, from not being
so uberpro-breastfeeding (to the point of being obnoxious at
times...new mom/1st baby syndrome and all that) to not going to the
reunion since I knew what my MIL was like.
Usurping is a harsh word and when I read it, it does sound like a
parent who feels their kid is a posession and I will make your life
misrable if you do not follow all of our instructins. I guess respect
for the choices we are making would work, but the truth is would be
hard pressed to respect the wishes of a DIL that wanted me to spank my
grandkids too. Or force them to do "school work" at my house.....I'd
hate having to force anyones kid to do homework after being in school
all day.
I'm with you, if you have a whole list of things your kid can do at my
house, I'd just rather them not come.
But where do you draw the line as an unschooling parent? What is
non-negotiable? If its not usurping
(hmmmm...presuming/preempting/appropriating/supplanting) to do things
like feeding a vegitarian child meat, forcing an unschooling child to
"do" schoolish stuff, or spanking a non-spanked kid (all in the
context of younger/complacent/fearful kids who would not/could not
fight back but go along)then what is it?
Besides just being plain rude.....
Sorry, long again....
Julie W
> If I ever babysit a grandkid and a parent uses his position to tryto make
> me spank or punish or put a child to bed in a dark room because theclock says
> 8:00, I will absolutely refuse to do it, even if they're paying mecash by
> the hour.to be
>
> If I babysit other people's kids and they tell me how their child is
> treated to the minutest detail, they can take their kids on awaywith them,
> because what they're really doing is leaving a child at MY house,where children
> have survived and are happy. I would want a WHOLE lot of money perhour,
> and to be in someone else's house to do the work, to follow someoneelse's
> rules to the letter. A lot of money. Not less than $50 an hour togo against
> my beliefs.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather Woodward
This reminds me of an incident that my SIL had when my MIL babysat for her daughter. My MIL spanked her daughter for repeatedly jumping on MIL airbed (like the Sleep Number bed) even when asked to please stop etc. There have also been dog incidents were my niece was particularly mean to the animals.
In any case, my SIL freaked out - which has saved the rest of us from this potentially happening at our house.
But I do think it stems from the fact that my MIL was not doing any different than she did with her kids and feels that all they "turned out fine". I don't think there was malice intended - but she was reacting in the same way she had reacted to her kids. My SIL was particularly sensitive because her own father had been abusive and so there is no spanking on her end.
I had a time with my MIL when she thought I babied Chase too much because he never would just be put in his crib and go to sleep. He always wanted to be rocked and nursed and if he didn't fall asleep nursing - he didn't sleep. She believed in the "cry it out theory". So we have often been at odds - but I will say that she recognizes that I just do things differently. I can tell by some comments that she makes that she thinks I am too permissive, not organized(scheduled), etc. She has babysat a few times when I have worked a week-long intensive University course and has everyone regimented. Naps scheduled, shoes must always be worn outside, laundry is all done and folded - chores are regimented. My husband thinks its great - he grew up this way. I think its insane. I can see the benefits of some of her ideas - but I am just not that way. I don't like to wear shoes outside in summer - I don't mind if they splash in puddles - and I am really unstructured. She really thinks this is detrimental, that kids need to learn discipline etc.
I do wish my husband would relax a bit more - and not feel as if life needs to be run like an army camp. After 12 years of marrige I think its growing on him - and seeing how happy anf free our kids are.... His view has been changing - but slowly.
In any case, my SIL freaked out - which has saved the rest of us from this potentially happening at our house.
But I do think it stems from the fact that my MIL was not doing any different than she did with her kids and feels that all they "turned out fine". I don't think there was malice intended - but she was reacting in the same way she had reacted to her kids. My SIL was particularly sensitive because her own father had been abusive and so there is no spanking on her end.
I had a time with my MIL when she thought I babied Chase too much because he never would just be put in his crib and go to sleep. He always wanted to be rocked and nursed and if he didn't fall asleep nursing - he didn't sleep. She believed in the "cry it out theory". So we have often been at odds - but I will say that she recognizes that I just do things differently. I can tell by some comments that she makes that she thinks I am too permissive, not organized(scheduled), etc. She has babysat a few times when I have worked a week-long intensive University course and has everyone regimented. Naps scheduled, shoes must always be worn outside, laundry is all done and folded - chores are regimented. My husband thinks its great - he grew up this way. I think its insane. I can see the benefits of some of her ideas - but I am just not that way. I don't like to wear shoes outside in summer - I don't mind if they splash in puddles - and I am really unstructured. She really thinks this is detrimental, that kids need to learn discipline etc.
I do wish my husband would relax a bit more - and not feel as if life needs to be run like an army camp. After 12 years of marrige I think its growing on him - and seeing how happy anf free our kids are.... His view has been changing - but slowly.
----- Original Message -----
From: juliewinar
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 1:23 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: usurping authority
> It has taken years of conditioning to get my parents and MIL to this
> point of leaving us alone...their training began the day my MIL fed my
> exclusivly breast-fed, top of the chart 4 month old "cereal" when we
> left him (along with bottles of breast milk) with her for 4 hours
while
> we went to dh's class reunion....she never tried to usurp our position
> as parents again.
>
>
> =============================
>
> When I read things like that, I have sympathy for the
> babysitter/in-law/parent.
>
> I think feeding a four month old cereal was very bad, but as to
"usurping the position of parents," I think it's better to talk to the
kids about dealing with the relatives than to command the relatives to
behave as we would.
>
Well a 4 month old can't really deal with a memaw who's spooning food
into his mounth instead of that bottle he'd rather have.
Of course this all had to do with the discussion about dyslexia and
ds's choice of using the word as a way to "deal" with relatives.
We are lot better now about not throwing ds into situations he would
not be able to deal with and with helping him workout how he will deal
with things that come up.
"Usurping" is probably not the best word and my "tounge-in-cheek" tone
(which was in my head when I wrote that) did not come across to well.
I can sound harsh at times.
I just feel so bad for folks when I read how relatives constantly
grill them on their lives and how they are raising/educating their
kids. Some parents and in-laws can be very contolling. It seems to be
a constant theme for homeschoolers and unschoolers alike. We do not
have that problem, from a woman who can be quite controlling with her
other sons wives, and I think it all stems back to that 1st incident.
Its strange, she and I have a better relationship (what little there
is) then she has with any of the other DILs.
The truth is ds did not suffer any ill effects from the food and in
hindsight there were other choices I could have made, from not being
so uberpro-breastfeeding (to the point of being obnoxious at
times...new mom/1st baby syndrome and all that) to not going to the
reunion since I knew what my MIL was like.
Usurping is a harsh word and when I read it, it does sound like a
parent who feels their kid is a posession and I will make your life
misrable if you do not follow all of our instructins. I guess respect
for the choices we are making would work, but the truth is would be
hard pressed to respect the wishes of a DIL that wanted me to spank my
grandkids too. Or force them to do "school work" at my house.....I'd
hate having to force anyones kid to do homework after being in school
all day.
I'm with you, if you have a whole list of things your kid can do at my
house, I'd just rather them not come.
But where do you draw the line as an unschooling parent? What is
non-negotiable? If its not usurping
(hmmmm...presuming/preempting/appropriating/supplanting) to do things
like feeding a vegitarian child meat, forcing an unschooling child to
"do" schoolish stuff, or spanking a non-spanked kid (all in the
context of younger/complacent/fearful kids who would not/could not
fight back but go along)then what is it?
Besides just being plain rude.....
Sorry, long again....
Julie W
> If I ever babysit a grandkid and a parent uses his position to try
to make
> me spank or punish or put a child to bed in a dark room because the
clock says
> 8:00, I will absolutely refuse to do it, even if they're paying me
cash by
> the hour.
>
> If I babysit other people's kids and they tell me how their child is
to be
> treated to the minutest detail, they can take their kids on away
with them,
> because what they're really doing is leaving a child at MY house,
where children
> have survived and are happy. I would want a WHOLE lot of money per
hour,
> and to be in someone else's house to do the work, to follow someone
else's
> rules to the letter. A lot of money. Not less than $50 an hour to
go against
> my beliefs.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/4/2005 12:36:28 PM Central Standard Time,
jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
But where do you draw the line as an unschooling parent? What is
non-negotiable? If its not usurping
(hmmmm...presuming/preempting/appropriating/supplanting) to do things
like feeding a vegitarian child meat, forcing an unschooling child to
"do" schoolish stuff, or spanking a non-spanked kid (all in the
context of younger/complacent/fearful kids who would not/could not
fight back but go along)then what is it?
Besides just being plain rude.....
~~~
It's a good question. I'm going to be a grandmother and my grandson's
mother will get her teaching degree before his birth.
We bump heads on a lot of things. I try really hard not to bump into hers
if I can help it. I stopped sending her the cool articles I run across on
this list about co-sleeping, etc. (An issue she has taken a stand against.)
She is capable of changing--she recently decided to stay home with the baby
until the spring semester of school, instead of spending all summer looking for
a teaching job for the fall and then giving birth just as classes are about
to start!
I expect I will get to keep the baby for a weekend here or there. I'm the
only one of his grandmothers who doesn't work. It will be convenient for them
and they love to travel, so I'm certain it will come up. (I do suspect Jake
will be more likely to want the baby with him all the time, since he won't
get to know the baby until he gets back from Iraq, so my supposing could all
change.) I can't give it breastmilk unless she's pumping, and I'm not sure
she'll be nursing (although I did send her Dr. Spears' book). I've been saving
Will's crib for the grandbabies, but I've already decided this baby is
sleeping with me, if I get to have it overnight. So much better for the baby.
She'll think I'm spoiling it. She will think the baby will not want to go
to sleep in its own bed when it gets home. I'm just not going to care that
much what she thinks of it, and I'll probably not tell her unless it comes up.
Oh, not that I'll lie or anything. I will give her every reason to trust
me, while minimizing conflict. I'll be walking that subtle balance between
preserving relationship/influence and losing both. So much more ticklish with
daughters-in-law, it seems.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
But where do you draw the line as an unschooling parent? What is
non-negotiable? If its not usurping
(hmmmm...presuming/preempting/appropriating/supplanting) to do things
like feeding a vegitarian child meat, forcing an unschooling child to
"do" schoolish stuff, or spanking a non-spanked kid (all in the
context of younger/complacent/fearful kids who would not/could not
fight back but go along)then what is it?
Besides just being plain rude.....
~~~
It's a good question. I'm going to be a grandmother and my grandson's
mother will get her teaching degree before his birth.
We bump heads on a lot of things. I try really hard not to bump into hers
if I can help it. I stopped sending her the cool articles I run across on
this list about co-sleeping, etc. (An issue she has taken a stand against.)
She is capable of changing--she recently decided to stay home with the baby
until the spring semester of school, instead of spending all summer looking for
a teaching job for the fall and then giving birth just as classes are about
to start!
I expect I will get to keep the baby for a weekend here or there. I'm the
only one of his grandmothers who doesn't work. It will be convenient for them
and they love to travel, so I'm certain it will come up. (I do suspect Jake
will be more likely to want the baby with him all the time, since he won't
get to know the baby until he gets back from Iraq, so my supposing could all
change.) I can't give it breastmilk unless she's pumping, and I'm not sure
she'll be nursing (although I did send her Dr. Spears' book). I've been saving
Will's crib for the grandbabies, but I've already decided this baby is
sleeping with me, if I get to have it overnight. So much better for the baby.
She'll think I'm spoiling it. She will think the baby will not want to go
to sleep in its own bed when it gets home. I'm just not going to care that
much what she thinks of it, and I'll probably not tell her unless it comes up.
Oh, not that I'll lie or anything. I will give her every reason to trust
me, while minimizing conflict. I'll be walking that subtle balance between
preserving relationship/influence and losing both. So much more ticklish with
daughters-in-law, it seems.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jen A
tuckervill2@... wrote:
I am facing a similar situation. My little sister is pregnant with her
first baby and will be a single mom. I will be caring for the baby
while she works. She seems receptive to AP and plans to breastfeed, but
she has not read anything I have given her nor has she taken much of my
advice about pregnancy diet, etc. I too am walking the line. It seems
so much harder when the child in question is a family member--a beloved
niece or nephew or grandchild. It's giving me some perspective on what
it must be like for my family when they see me doing things that are
"wierd" with my kids. Co-sleeping was a big one for my mom--she was
genuinely afraid I would smother the baby. Oh, and homebirth was
another big one. And right now my little sis is living with my mom so
there is a lot of what I consider negative influence for me to try to
counter without damaging my relationship with my mom or my sister. It's
all very tricky.
Ironically, some of the best advice I got about this was from my
mother. When my first was little, I was really worried about letting
him spend any time at all with my MIL because she is a very negative and
judgmental person and I was afraid she would hurt his feelings or that
it would "rub off" on him. My mom advised me that ds and MIL will need
to work out their own relationship and I can not control it. As long as
he still wants to pursue the relationship with her, which he does, who
am I to step in and tell them how to interact? Of course I do draw the
line at spanking and punishments, but really I don't have to because ds
would simply choose not to visit her if she did that. She knows it too,
and she knows I wouldn't make him go. And when he was a baby he was
never alone with her so I didn't have feeding issues or anything. So
for right now this is working. Perhaps as you grandparent your little
one you can discuss this idea with your DIL--that you and your
grandchild will have a different relationship than they will have with
each other, but that's OK. Am I making any sense?
Jenny
>Hi Karen,
>
>
> She'll think I'm spoiling it. She will think the baby will not want
> to go
> to sleep in its own bed when it gets home. I'm just not going to
> care that
> much what she thinks of it, and I'll probably not tell her unless it
> comes up.
> Oh, not that I'll lie or anything. I will give her every reason to
> trust
> me, while minimizing conflict. I'll be walking that subtle balance
> between
> preserving relationship/influence and losing both. So much more
> ticklish with
> daughters-in-law, it seems.
>
> Karen
I am facing a similar situation. My little sister is pregnant with her
first baby and will be a single mom. I will be caring for the baby
while she works. She seems receptive to AP and plans to breastfeed, but
she has not read anything I have given her nor has she taken much of my
advice about pregnancy diet, etc. I too am walking the line. It seems
so much harder when the child in question is a family member--a beloved
niece or nephew or grandchild. It's giving me some perspective on what
it must be like for my family when they see me doing things that are
"wierd" with my kids. Co-sleeping was a big one for my mom--she was
genuinely afraid I would smother the baby. Oh, and homebirth was
another big one. And right now my little sis is living with my mom so
there is a lot of what I consider negative influence for me to try to
counter without damaging my relationship with my mom or my sister. It's
all very tricky.
Ironically, some of the best advice I got about this was from my
mother. When my first was little, I was really worried about letting
him spend any time at all with my MIL because she is a very negative and
judgmental person and I was afraid she would hurt his feelings or that
it would "rub off" on him. My mom advised me that ds and MIL will need
to work out their own relationship and I can not control it. As long as
he still wants to pursue the relationship with her, which he does, who
am I to step in and tell them how to interact? Of course I do draw the
line at spanking and punishments, but really I don't have to because ds
would simply choose not to visit her if she did that. She knows it too,
and she knows I wouldn't make him go. And when he was a baby he was
never alone with her so I didn't have feeding issues or anything. So
for right now this is working. Perhaps as you grandparent your little
one you can discuss this idea with your DIL--that you and your
grandchild will have a different relationship than they will have with
each other, but that's OK. Am I making any sense?
Jenny
Pam Sorooshian
Hey Karen - David Elkind has a book about grandparenting. I haven't
read it - but I'm a big fan of "The Hurried Child" and "Miseducation"
so I bet it is great.
-pam
read it - but I'm a big fan of "The Hurried Child" and "Miseducation"
so I bet it is great.
-pam
On Mar 4, 2005, at 11:16 AM, tuckervill2@... wrote:
> She'll think I'm spoiling it. She will think the baby will not want
> to go
> to sleep in its own bed when it gets home. I'm just not going to
> care that
> much what she thinks of it, and I'll probably not tell her unless it
> comes up.
> Oh, not that I'll lie or anything. I will give her every reason to
> trust
> me, while minimizing conflict. I'll be walking that subtle balance
> between
> preserving relationship/influence and losing both. So much more
> ticklish with
> daughters-in-law, it seems.
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/4/2005 2:45:49 PM Central Standard Time,
salten@... writes:
Perhaps as you grandparent your little
one you can discuss this idea with your DIL--that you and your
grandchild will have a different relationship than they will have with
each other, but that's OK. Am I making any sense?
~~~
Yes, of course you are!
I keep thinking as the time grows near that the biological changes will
happen and that will ease the transition for all three of us. I almost feel like
*I* am going through biological changes...well, I am what with the gray hair
and what-not. But I also feel like the very thoughts I have about this
grandchild are changing me. And of course, thoughts are the genesis of every
action.
I am so grateful my kids have relationships with their grandparents! I hope
Mandy can be grateful for me some day. :)
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
salten@... writes:
Perhaps as you grandparent your little
one you can discuss this idea with your DIL--that you and your
grandchild will have a different relationship than they will have with
each other, but that's OK. Am I making any sense?
~~~
Yes, of course you are!
I keep thinking as the time grows near that the biological changes will
happen and that will ease the transition for all three of us. I almost feel like
*I* am going through biological changes...well, I am what with the gray hair
and what-not. But I also feel like the very thoughts I have about this
grandchild are changing me. And of course, thoughts are the genesis of every
action.
I am so grateful my kids have relationships with their grandparents! I hope
Mandy can be grateful for me some day. :)
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/4/2005 6:24:26 PM Central Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
Hey Karen - David Elkind has a book about grandparenting
~~~
Thanks! I was thinking of writing one. Not that I'd ever get it finished.
But I was also thinking of looking some up.
From this side of the road, the best grandparenting book still has to be
Living Joyfully with Children.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
Hey Karen - David Elkind has a book about grandparenting
~~~
Thanks! I was thinking of writing one. Not that I'd ever get it finished.
But I was also thinking of looking some up.
From this side of the road, the best grandparenting book still has to be
Living Joyfully with Children.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]