Not how unscholing works
Elizabeth Hill
**I don't consider unschooling to be accurately characterized as
"child-led learning" - I think that expression is part of the
difficulty we unschoolers have in getting the idea across, in fact.
As Tammy said in the below paragraph - unschooling is very
parent-involved. It is more of a "learning tango" <G> where parents and
children interact and their ideas and energies and voices and
activities intertwine. We could think of it as a dance in which
sometimes one leads and sometimes the other - but, really, most of the
time it isn't that one leads - they simply move together. I think the
idea of the children "leading" can be misleading and confuse people's
understanding of unschooling.
Somebody asked me today, "So, do you just sit there and wait until your
child says they want to learn about something? And then you figure out
how teach it to them?"
That is so NOT how unschooling works - but I can see how people would
think that when they hear "child-led learning."
-pam**
Pam, do you mind me dragging this over (from the HSC list) and using it
as a conversation starter here?
I'm very available to my kid and very responsive to him, but I'm not
sure if much of anything at my house is "parent led". I don't know if
this is my natural temperament, or a carefully evolved strategy that
suits my child, or my exaggerated fear of committing an unschooling
"sin" by pushing to hard. (It could even be poor recollection on my
part. Maybe my softshoe shuffle really is like a tango. <g>)
In the absence of an expressed interest from my child, I find it hard to
know what to do other than go to the park, visit friends, or hang out
around the house. Really. But my kid strongly prefers staying home
over going out and having adventures, so maybe I'm just being respectful
of his wishes.
Maybe I'm just not seeing the trees for the forest, or something. But
sometimes I think I am doing this all wrong because it doesn't resemble
the pictures I get of other people's lives.
Could you paint some footprints on the floor for me and the other
remedial unschoolers? <g>
Thanks,
Betsy
"child-led learning" - I think that expression is part of the
difficulty we unschoolers have in getting the idea across, in fact.
As Tammy said in the below paragraph - unschooling is very
parent-involved. It is more of a "learning tango" <G> where parents and
children interact and their ideas and energies and voices and
activities intertwine. We could think of it as a dance in which
sometimes one leads and sometimes the other - but, really, most of the
time it isn't that one leads - they simply move together. I think the
idea of the children "leading" can be misleading and confuse people's
understanding of unschooling.
Somebody asked me today, "So, do you just sit there and wait until your
child says they want to learn about something? And then you figure out
how teach it to them?"
That is so NOT how unschooling works - but I can see how people would
think that when they hear "child-led learning."
-pam**
Pam, do you mind me dragging this over (from the HSC list) and using it
as a conversation starter here?
I'm very available to my kid and very responsive to him, but I'm not
sure if much of anything at my house is "parent led". I don't know if
this is my natural temperament, or a carefully evolved strategy that
suits my child, or my exaggerated fear of committing an unschooling
"sin" by pushing to hard. (It could even be poor recollection on my
part. Maybe my softshoe shuffle really is like a tango. <g>)
In the absence of an expressed interest from my child, I find it hard to
know what to do other than go to the park, visit friends, or hang out
around the house. Really. But my kid strongly prefers staying home
over going out and having adventures, so maybe I'm just being respectful
of his wishes.
Maybe I'm just not seeing the trees for the forest, or something. But
sometimes I think I am doing this all wrong because it doesn't resemble
the pictures I get of other people's lives.
Could you paint some footprints on the floor for me and the other
remedial unschoolers? <g>
Thanks,
Betsy
soggyboysmom
Sometimes the illustration of respectful parenting that is used
is "would you say/do that with your spouse/SO/best friend?" I think
in some ways you might extend that to this topic too (but don't
stretch it too far). Think about when you and spouse/SO were first
together (and hopefully still are but it is especially evident in
the first bloom of a relationship) - if s/he discovered a love for
big band music, you'd keep your ears open for concerts in your area,
you'd pick up books and CDs if you spotted something and sometimes
even go the extra mile to get something that you knew would be "just
right". You didn't "instruct" in the finer points of big band music
or "study" the social and economic situations of the times, you
didn't require the interest to last x amount of time or go to y
depth and didn't require some z level of mastery of the subject. You
supported and enjoyed their enjoyment until that interest passed
perhaps or perhaps it became a permanent fixture at your home. I
think in many ways that's the way it works with our kids too - the
main difference being their dependence on us for things like money
and transportation. And, for an adult you might pick up something
and say Gee this looks like something s/he might like? and you bring
it around and they like it or not and that's that - you don't try to
make them do or use or like whatever it is. And it might sit around
a bit until it gets looked at, and it's generally okay, adult to
adult (I know I've bought books and things for DH and it was quite a
while before he touched them and sometimes they just aren't a good
fit at all).
is "would you say/do that with your spouse/SO/best friend?" I think
in some ways you might extend that to this topic too (but don't
stretch it too far). Think about when you and spouse/SO were first
together (and hopefully still are but it is especially evident in
the first bloom of a relationship) - if s/he discovered a love for
big band music, you'd keep your ears open for concerts in your area,
you'd pick up books and CDs if you spotted something and sometimes
even go the extra mile to get something that you knew would be "just
right". You didn't "instruct" in the finer points of big band music
or "study" the social and economic situations of the times, you
didn't require the interest to last x amount of time or go to y
depth and didn't require some z level of mastery of the subject. You
supported and enjoyed their enjoyment until that interest passed
perhaps or perhaps it became a permanent fixture at your home. I
think in many ways that's the way it works with our kids too - the
main difference being their dependence on us for things like money
and transportation. And, for an adult you might pick up something
and say Gee this looks like something s/he might like? and you bring
it around and they like it or not and that's that - you don't try to
make them do or use or like whatever it is. And it might sit around
a bit until it gets looked at, and it's generally okay, adult to
adult (I know I've bought books and things for DH and it was quite a
while before he touched them and sometimes they just aren't a good
fit at all).
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/3/2005 5:33:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
debra.rossing@... writes:
the first bloom of a relationship) - if she/he discovered a love for
big band music, you'd keep your ears open for concerts in your area,
you'd pick up books and CDs if you spotted something and sometimes
even go <<
I love this explanation. I can think of several people that I've tried to
explain unschooling to that just didn't grasp what I was saying. I think
they would understand this. In particular, I'm thinking about my ex-husband
who seems very open to our lifestyle but really isn't grasping what we do
around here. I'll add it to my repertoire of explanations for people who seem
sincerely interested in unschooling or at least in what in the world we're doing
around here! :-)
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debra.rossing@... writes:
>>Think about when you and spouse/SO were firsttogether (and hopefully still are but it is especially evident in
the first bloom of a relationship) - if she/he discovered a love for
big band music, you'd keep your ears open for concerts in your area,
you'd pick up books and CDs if you spotted something and sometimes
even go <<
I love this explanation. I can think of several people that I've tried to
explain unschooling to that just didn't grasp what I was saying. I think
they would understand this. In particular, I'm thinking about my ex-husband
who seems very open to our lifestyle but really isn't grasping what we do
around here. I'll add it to my repertoire of explanations for people who seem
sincerely interested in unschooling or at least in what in the world we're doing
around here! :-)
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 3, 2005, at 2:04 PM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
that for my son?"
Do you never hear about a place to go and suggest it? Do you not have
conversations in which you offer information and ideas? Do you tell him
about your childhood? Do you read books and suggest ones he might like?
Do you watch tv and movies together at your suggestion? If you're in
the grocery store and you notice cactus candy do you not point it out
to him and maybe buy a bit to have a taste?
-pam
> I'm very available to my kid and very responsive to him, but I'm notSo - do you never see something in a store and think, "Oh I should get
> sure if much of anything at my house is "parent led".
that for my son?"
Do you never hear about a place to go and suggest it? Do you not have
conversations in which you offer information and ideas? Do you tell him
about your childhood? Do you read books and suggest ones he might like?
Do you watch tv and movies together at your suggestion? If you're in
the grocery store and you notice cactus candy do you not point it out
to him and maybe buy a bit to have a taste?
-pam
Elizabeth Hill
Do you never hear about a place to go and suggest it? Do you not have
conversations in which you offer information and ideas? Do you tell him
about your childhood? Do you read books and suggest ones he might like?
Do you watch tv and movies together at your suggestion? If you're in the
grocery store and you notice cactus candy do you not point it out to him
and maybe buy a bit to have a taste?**
(I'm wanting to look more closely at the prior statement that
unschooling parents do a substantial amount of leading or initiating,
whereas I think I mostly wait around for him to express an interest
before taking any action.)
It's fairly uncommon for me to buy anything for him that costs more than
$3 that he hasn't pre-approved. Because he has shown himself to be
quite selective about what he'll approach, it seems like a waste of
money to bring something home if there seems to be only a 25% chance he
will like it. (Having more kids and having more positive kids would
change the cost-benefit picture, I think). Having three kids who like
say 50% of all well-selected new things could raise one's likely success
rate to 87.5%) (Right?)
When I am *following* his lead, and going with interests that I know he
has (e.g. Garfield books), then I'd probably buy it. But, to me, that
fits in the category of waiting until he has an interest and then
supporting it. It isn't me initiating something *new*. The whole idea
of broadening his horizons and cultivating new interests feels
mysterious and undoable to me. Maybe because I just am not willing to
strike out that often. ("If at first you don't succeed, try, try again"
is a tough philosophy for me to embrace.)
Since we aren't in stores often, because he dislikes shopping, it's not
that common for us to even see cool new stuff. (Remember we aren't
getting to museums with any frequency, so we aren't getting to museum
gift shops either.) We aren't even seeing cool books, games and
thingies at Barnes and Noble, because we don't go there. We try to get
all of our books at the library and at library book sales, because that
is what fits our restricted budget.
You know, this is going to sound unimaginable, but since we moved
recently and signed up with the direct marketing preference thingie to
reduce junk mail, we don't even get homeschooling and toy catalogs in my
house! (We find out about cool new things when our better-informed
friends give us birthday presents. "Hey, I've never seen one of
these!") (I think we did get catalogs in December, but don't get very
many.)
**Do you never hear about a place to go and suggest it?**
I would say that seventy or eighty percent of the time he doesn't want
to go to new places. Maybe the answer there is always to have someone to
go with, so he can have some kid companionship.
Of the things that our co-op group talked about doing this year, the one
that he was enthusiastic about was going on a newt walk. Unfortunately,
rain and illnesses and birthday parties have postponed this for many weeks.
We did a big outing to the Monterey Aquarium during the three day
weekend, but that's an "old" place for us. We bought a membership and
told our friends that any time they wanted to go we would carpool down
with them. (We may not go to another "museum" for four months.)
I've been thinking about going to the theater, but am often discouraged
by the ticket prices. (even if only multiplied by three people) *I do
need a better planning method*, though. I got an email last week that
the local community college is doing "Seussical", and that seems like a
good combination of kid-appeal, convenience, and low cost. I just need
to convert my good intention to action, without any upfront enthusiasm
from my kid or my spouse. (Neither of them would be panting by the
door, like dogs that want to walk to the park, which is the kind of
enthusiastic response to theater that I imagine some people may get. <g>)
**Do you tell him about your childhood?**
Not a lot. We don't talk much. He doesn't seem interested in talking
to me. Even in the car. But if I sit with him and watch television for
an hour (as Sandra has recommended) sometimes words to start leaking out
of him.
**Do you watch tv and movies together at your suggestion? **
Sometimes, but not often. He wants to make his own selections. (I do
TiVo things that I think he might possibly be interested in.) We have
finally run through everything he wanted from Netflix, so when I saw
that Mork and Mindy was being released, I picked that for him. (He loves
comedy and television and space, and pretty much everybody loves Robin
Williams.) That was a big hit. Currently we also have out Children of
Heaven (because I heard it was good) and The Right Stuff (which dh and I
have already seen, but thought James would find interesting.) I can't
get anyone to consent to watch either of these with me. (But we've only
had them 3-4 days, so maybe I'm giving up too soon.) My husband's idea
of viewing pleasure is to surf and watch whatever *he wants* (normally
the History Channel), not anything that I have picked. With two TVs, we
find ourselves in separate rooms a lot. All of us would rather be alone
than be "stuck" watching something we don't find appealing.
Unschooling at my house is so different from unschooling at your house
that I'm not sure that what I do could possibly still be unschooling.
Betsy (under dark rainy clouds today)
PS Balancing all the negative with a positive example, I did grab a
book of Optical Illusions at last month's library booksale and James and
Rick spent a lot of time looking at this together. This type of
activity-oriented book isn't commonly found at booksales, which is what
made me start pondering what I might be missing by not going to
full-price bookstores. At last months library sale, I did buy for James
(or for our collection) -- The Whipping Boy, Coraline, I Was a Rat,
Artemis Fowl, Midnight for Charlie Bone, and a Star Wars graphic novel.
All 35 cents a piece. We are fortunate to be able to get cool stuff
like this at a price where I can say "I don't care if we EVER read this
or not". I also bought eight princessy or historically set books for a
friend's daughter's birthday at the same sale.
conversations in which you offer information and ideas? Do you tell him
about your childhood? Do you read books and suggest ones he might like?
Do you watch tv and movies together at your suggestion? If you're in the
grocery store and you notice cactus candy do you not point it out to him
and maybe buy a bit to have a taste?**
(I'm wanting to look more closely at the prior statement that
unschooling parents do a substantial amount of leading or initiating,
whereas I think I mostly wait around for him to express an interest
before taking any action.)
It's fairly uncommon for me to buy anything for him that costs more than
$3 that he hasn't pre-approved. Because he has shown himself to be
quite selective about what he'll approach, it seems like a waste of
money to bring something home if there seems to be only a 25% chance he
will like it. (Having more kids and having more positive kids would
change the cost-benefit picture, I think). Having three kids who like
say 50% of all well-selected new things could raise one's likely success
rate to 87.5%) (Right?)
When I am *following* his lead, and going with interests that I know he
has (e.g. Garfield books), then I'd probably buy it. But, to me, that
fits in the category of waiting until he has an interest and then
supporting it. It isn't me initiating something *new*. The whole idea
of broadening his horizons and cultivating new interests feels
mysterious and undoable to me. Maybe because I just am not willing to
strike out that often. ("If at first you don't succeed, try, try again"
is a tough philosophy for me to embrace.)
Since we aren't in stores often, because he dislikes shopping, it's not
that common for us to even see cool new stuff. (Remember we aren't
getting to museums with any frequency, so we aren't getting to museum
gift shops either.) We aren't even seeing cool books, games and
thingies at Barnes and Noble, because we don't go there. We try to get
all of our books at the library and at library book sales, because that
is what fits our restricted budget.
You know, this is going to sound unimaginable, but since we moved
recently and signed up with the direct marketing preference thingie to
reduce junk mail, we don't even get homeschooling and toy catalogs in my
house! (We find out about cool new things when our better-informed
friends give us birthday presents. "Hey, I've never seen one of
these!") (I think we did get catalogs in December, but don't get very
many.)
**Do you never hear about a place to go and suggest it?**
I would say that seventy or eighty percent of the time he doesn't want
to go to new places. Maybe the answer there is always to have someone to
go with, so he can have some kid companionship.
Of the things that our co-op group talked about doing this year, the one
that he was enthusiastic about was going on a newt walk. Unfortunately,
rain and illnesses and birthday parties have postponed this for many weeks.
We did a big outing to the Monterey Aquarium during the three day
weekend, but that's an "old" place for us. We bought a membership and
told our friends that any time they wanted to go we would carpool down
with them. (We may not go to another "museum" for four months.)
I've been thinking about going to the theater, but am often discouraged
by the ticket prices. (even if only multiplied by three people) *I do
need a better planning method*, though. I got an email last week that
the local community college is doing "Seussical", and that seems like a
good combination of kid-appeal, convenience, and low cost. I just need
to convert my good intention to action, without any upfront enthusiasm
from my kid or my spouse. (Neither of them would be panting by the
door, like dogs that want to walk to the park, which is the kind of
enthusiastic response to theater that I imagine some people may get. <g>)
**Do you tell him about your childhood?**
Not a lot. We don't talk much. He doesn't seem interested in talking
to me. Even in the car. But if I sit with him and watch television for
an hour (as Sandra has recommended) sometimes words to start leaking out
of him.
**Do you watch tv and movies together at your suggestion? **
Sometimes, but not often. He wants to make his own selections. (I do
TiVo things that I think he might possibly be interested in.) We have
finally run through everything he wanted from Netflix, so when I saw
that Mork and Mindy was being released, I picked that for him. (He loves
comedy and television and space, and pretty much everybody loves Robin
Williams.) That was a big hit. Currently we also have out Children of
Heaven (because I heard it was good) and The Right Stuff (which dh and I
have already seen, but thought James would find interesting.) I can't
get anyone to consent to watch either of these with me. (But we've only
had them 3-4 days, so maybe I'm giving up too soon.) My husband's idea
of viewing pleasure is to surf and watch whatever *he wants* (normally
the History Channel), not anything that I have picked. With two TVs, we
find ourselves in separate rooms a lot. All of us would rather be alone
than be "stuck" watching something we don't find appealing.
Unschooling at my house is so different from unschooling at your house
that I'm not sure that what I do could possibly still be unschooling.
Betsy (under dark rainy clouds today)
PS Balancing all the negative with a positive example, I did grab a
book of Optical Illusions at last month's library booksale and James and
Rick spent a lot of time looking at this together. This type of
activity-oriented book isn't commonly found at booksales, which is what
made me start pondering what I might be missing by not going to
full-price bookstores. At last months library sale, I did buy for James
(or for our collection) -- The Whipping Boy, Coraline, I Was a Rat,
Artemis Fowl, Midnight for Charlie Bone, and a Star Wars graphic novel.
All 35 cents a piece. We are fortunate to be able to get cool stuff
like this at a price where I can say "I don't care if we EVER read this
or not". I also bought eight princessy or historically set books for a
friend's daughter's birthday at the same sale.
Julie
For anyone interested in reliving a little bit of school life and
recognizing how far youve come, take a look at this brief video shot
through a students mobile phone. The teacher is awful, but I pity him at
the same time. Hes just so uselessly frustrated in a broken system. It's
especially ironic how the scene ends as "O'er the land of the free" is
playing in the background.
http://www.fatwallet.com/t/69/440608/
(Click on the video link.)
(Another slice of school life for you sociologists out there: My husband is
still teaching because we havent yet figured out how to earn enough money
from other sources, so he was especially interested in this. In contrast to
the situation in this video, he said that about two people per day decide to
stand for the pledge of allegiance in his homeroom.)
Julie in NY
________________________________________________
"Acquire the courage to believe in yourself. Many of the things that you
have been taught were at one time the radical ideas of individuals who had
the courage to believe what their own hearts and minds told them was true,
rather than accept the common beliefs of their day."
-Ching Ning Chu
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/
recognizing how far youve come, take a look at this brief video shot
through a students mobile phone. The teacher is awful, but I pity him at
the same time. Hes just so uselessly frustrated in a broken system. It's
especially ironic how the scene ends as "O'er the land of the free" is
playing in the background.
http://www.fatwallet.com/t/69/440608/
(Click on the video link.)
(Another slice of school life for you sociologists out there: My husband is
still teaching because we havent yet figured out how to earn enough money
from other sources, so he was especially interested in this. In contrast to
the situation in this video, he said that about two people per day decide to
stand for the pledge of allegiance in his homeroom.)
Julie in NY
________________________________________________
"Acquire the courage to believe in yourself. Many of the things that you
have been taught were at one time the radical ideas of individuals who had
the courage to believe what their own hearts and minds told them was true,
rather than accept the common beliefs of their day."
-Ching Ning Chu
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/4/2005 11:21:47 AM Mountain Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
-=-I just need
to convert my good intention to action, without any upfront enthusiasm
from my kid or my spouse.-=-
===================
Yes, with much upfront enthusiasm from you!
**Do you tell him about your childhood?**
-=-Not a lot. We don't talk much. He doesn't seem interested in talking
to me. Even in the car. But if I sit with him and watch television for
an hour (as Sandra has recommended) sometimes words to start leaking out
of him.-=-
If it takes an hour for him to start talking, consider this:
Plan two hours.
Do non-verbal things instead of watching TV if you want talking to happen.
Drive around. Work puzzles. Mess with something.
_http://sandradodd.com/truck_ (http://sandradodd.com/truck)
-=- We have
finally run through everything he wanted from Netflix,-=-
Everything he wanted when he looked at their list in one way in one season?
Netflix has over 35,000 DVDs. I doubt he's seen 100 of them.
They get hundreds of new ones every month. How did you come to "finally"?
-=-I can't
get anyone to consent to watch either of these with me. (But we've only
had them 3-4 days, so maybe I'm giving up too soon.) -=-
Put it on. Do something in the room where it is. Maybe someone will come
and join you. Be willing to start it over, or to pause and summarize what he
missed. Or watch it alone, and tell each person what you saw that you
thought they would like. If they watch it, you can talk about it. If not, send it
back.
If you're only going to have fun or feel successful if they do something
with you, that's a kind of codependency.
-=-Unschooling at my house is so different from unschooling at your house
that I'm not sure that what I do could possibly still be unschooling.-=-
Is it better than school?
Are you doing as well as you can do?
Can you find ways to be perkier and less negative?
Would he be better off in school?
-=-type of
activity-oriented book isn't commonly found at booksales, which is what
made me start pondering what I might be missing by not going to
full-price bookstores. -=-
You could at least LOOK at full-price bookstores and maybe look then on
amazon for a used copy of something you liked.
People shouldn't try to unschool for free. Seriously, having a kid in
school costs money, even a public school. There are expenses. Not spending ANY
money on things for a kid could be neglectful.
-=-We are fortunate to be able to get cool stuff
like this at a price where I can say "I don't care if we EVER read this
or not". -=-
But the books in that pile are there because the library didn't want to
bother to put them in the library, right? Someone donated it to the library
(rejected it) and the library sold it cheap (rejected it). Maybe twice-rejected
book sales isn't the best use of your time.
Yes, sometimes there are good books at library book sales, I know.
Libraries will jettison books for not having been checked out or for being no longer
on the recommended lists. Those books are old, though, and something is
wrong with them one way or another. I own pretty many ex library books, so I'm
not condemning them as a class of books, but it's not the best pile to dig
through in general.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
-=-I just need
to convert my good intention to action, without any upfront enthusiasm
from my kid or my spouse.-=-
===================
Yes, with much upfront enthusiasm from you!
**Do you tell him about your childhood?**
-=-Not a lot. We don't talk much. He doesn't seem interested in talking
to me. Even in the car. But if I sit with him and watch television for
an hour (as Sandra has recommended) sometimes words to start leaking out
of him.-=-
If it takes an hour for him to start talking, consider this:
Plan two hours.
Do non-verbal things instead of watching TV if you want talking to happen.
Drive around. Work puzzles. Mess with something.
_http://sandradodd.com/truck_ (http://sandradodd.com/truck)
-=- We have
finally run through everything he wanted from Netflix,-=-
Everything he wanted when he looked at their list in one way in one season?
Netflix has over 35,000 DVDs. I doubt he's seen 100 of them.
They get hundreds of new ones every month. How did you come to "finally"?
-=-I can't
get anyone to consent to watch either of these with me. (But we've only
had them 3-4 days, so maybe I'm giving up too soon.) -=-
Put it on. Do something in the room where it is. Maybe someone will come
and join you. Be willing to start it over, or to pause and summarize what he
missed. Or watch it alone, and tell each person what you saw that you
thought they would like. If they watch it, you can talk about it. If not, send it
back.
If you're only going to have fun or feel successful if they do something
with you, that's a kind of codependency.
-=-Unschooling at my house is so different from unschooling at your house
that I'm not sure that what I do could possibly still be unschooling.-=-
Is it better than school?
Are you doing as well as you can do?
Can you find ways to be perkier and less negative?
Would he be better off in school?
-=-type of
activity-oriented book isn't commonly found at booksales, which is what
made me start pondering what I might be missing by not going to
full-price bookstores. -=-
You could at least LOOK at full-price bookstores and maybe look then on
amazon for a used copy of something you liked.
People shouldn't try to unschool for free. Seriously, having a kid in
school costs money, even a public school. There are expenses. Not spending ANY
money on things for a kid could be neglectful.
-=-We are fortunate to be able to get cool stuff
like this at a price where I can say "I don't care if we EVER read this
or not". -=-
But the books in that pile are there because the library didn't want to
bother to put them in the library, right? Someone donated it to the library
(rejected it) and the library sold it cheap (rejected it). Maybe twice-rejected
book sales isn't the best use of your time.
Yes, sometimes there are good books at library book sales, I know.
Libraries will jettison books for not having been checked out or for being no longer
on the recommended lists. Those books are old, though, and something is
wrong with them one way or another. I own pretty many ex library books, so I'm
not condemning them as a class of books, but it's not the best pile to dig
through in general.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie w
Elizabeth Hill wrote:
It gave me nightmares.
My website is called The Other Mother....
Julie W
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> Coraline,We so, so sosososos love this book.
It gave me nightmares.
My website is called The Other Mother....
Julie W
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Jen A
>Hi Betsy,
>
> PS Balancing all the negative with a positive example, I did grab a
> book of Optical Illusions at last month's library booksale and James and
> Rick spent a lot of time looking at this together. This type of
> activity-oriented book isn't commonly found at booksales, which is what
> made me start pondering what I might be missing by not going to
> full-price bookstores. At last months library sale, I did buy for James
> (or for our collection) -- The Whipping Boy, Coraline, I Was a Rat,
> Artemis Fowl, Midnight for Charlie Bone, and a Star Wars graphic novel.
> All 35 cents a piece. We are fortunate to be able to get cool stuff
> like this at a price where I can say "I don't care if we EVER read this
> or not". I also bought eight princessy or historically set books for a
> friend's daughter's birthday at the same sale.
Have you looked to see if there is a freecycle group near you? People
are always giving away books, household items, etc. If you can get
stuff for free, you can definitely not worry if he is going to use it or
not. I've seen things like craft supplies, old magazines, building
materials, games, toys, puzzles, clothes, furniture--you name it!
www.freecycle.org
Jenny
Elizabeth Hill
**
-=-I can't
get anyone to consent to watch either of these with me. (But we've only
had them 3-4 days, so maybe I'm giving up too soon.) -=-
Put it on. Do something in the room where it is. **
The things that I want to do aren't in the room where it is. Maybe that's a structural part of the problem. (Yeah, I could move the clean laundry from the room with the TV and VCR into the room (living room) with the TV and the DVD player.
**Is it better than school?**
Yes.
**Are you doing as well as you can do?**
No.
**Can you find ways to be perkier and less negative?**
It's been a bad week. I'm starting to think about Prozac.
**Yes, sometimes there are good books at library book sales, I know. **
There are a lot of books donated from townspeople and the library doesn't normally shelve them. There are a lot of affluent people in this town who buy their kids books. But the selection does skew towards fiction. The really bells-and-whistles fun nonfiction (i.e. Excavate your own mummy!) doesn't tend to show up.
Betsy
-=-I can't
get anyone to consent to watch either of these with me. (But we've only
had them 3-4 days, so maybe I'm giving up too soon.) -=-
Put it on. Do something in the room where it is. **
The things that I want to do aren't in the room where it is. Maybe that's a structural part of the problem. (Yeah, I could move the clean laundry from the room with the TV and VCR into the room (living room) with the TV and the DVD player.
**Is it better than school?**
Yes.
**Are you doing as well as you can do?**
No.
**Can you find ways to be perkier and less negative?**
It's been a bad week. I'm starting to think about Prozac.
**Yes, sometimes there are good books at library book sales, I know. **
There are a lot of books donated from townspeople and the library doesn't normally shelve them. There are a lot of affluent people in this town who buy their kids books. But the selection does skew towards fiction. The really bells-and-whistles fun nonfiction (i.e. Excavate your own mummy!) doesn't tend to show up.
Betsy
nellebelle
>>>>>>**Do you watch tv and movies together at your suggestion? **Sometimes, but not often. He wants to make his own selections.>>>>>>>
Jackie (9) usually prefers to see a movie or read a book that she has already experienced. So when I ask if she wants to watch a movie of my choosing, she usually says no.
If it's a movie I want to see, I put it in for me. Sometimes she'll end up watching and sometimes not.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<There are a lot of books donated from townspeople and the library
doesn't normally shelve them. There are a lot of affluent people in this
town who buy their kids books. But the selection does skew towards fiction.
The really bells-and-whistles fun nonfiction (i.e. Excavate your own mummy!)
doesn't tend to show up.>>>>>
What is wrong with fiction? Is this an anti-fiction/pro-"educational" book
bias of yours showing up, or did I miss some important piece of info in a
prior post regarding your ds's book preferences? (The latter perfectly
possible as I am trying to clear a backlog).
Robyn L. Coburn
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doesn't normally shelve them. There are a lot of affluent people in this
town who buy their kids books. But the selection does skew towards fiction.
The really bells-and-whistles fun nonfiction (i.e. Excavate your own mummy!)
doesn't tend to show up.>>>>>
What is wrong with fiction? Is this an anti-fiction/pro-"educational" book
bias of yours showing up, or did I miss some important piece of info in a
prior post regarding your ds's book preferences? (The latter perfectly
possible as I am trying to clear a backlog).
Robyn L. Coburn
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Robyn Coburn
<<<<<You know, this is going to sound unimaginable, but since we moved
recently ...snip... I would say that seventy or eighty percent of the time
he doesn't want to go to new places. Maybe the answer there is always to
have someone to go with, so he can have some kid companionship.>>>>>
Maybe he is just taking a longer time than some other family members to
settle in, emotionally, to the new location.
<<<<<We did a big outing to the Monterey Aquarium during the three day
weekend, but that's an "old" place for us. We bought a membership and
told our friends that any time they wanted to go we would carpool down
with them. (We may not go to another "museum" for four months.)>>>>
We were just there too. And we also bought a membership. There is a nature
museum in Redding, CA that has a huge number of reciprocal memberships all
over the country. It is called Turtle Bay, and the membership seems
comparatively inexpensive.
There is a very cool newt in the film "Matilda". (Just some "unconnected"
trivia.)
<<<<(Neither of them would be panting by the
door, like dogs that want to walk to the park, which is the kind of
enthusiastic response to theater that I imagine some people may get.
<g>)>>>>
As someone who has worked in the theater at all levels for most of my
professional life, and really loved the life, I finally had to accept that I
was, nonetheless, *not* a theater-goer. Maybe he would be interested in
working in a theater rather than seeing it.
<<<<<<My husband's idea
of viewing pleasure is to surf and watch whatever *he wants* (normally
the History Channel), not anything that I have picked.>>>>
Aha! My husband's long lost twin separated at birth!!!
<<<<<<Unschooling at my house is so different from unschooling at your house
that I'm not sure that what I do could possibly still be unschooling.
Betsy (under dark rainy clouds today) >>>>>
Dear Betsy, the clouds will pass (maybe they already have). We have all been
reading your posts for long enough to know that you are unschooling (unless
you have secretly instituted some kind of imposed lesson regime that you are
keeping from us). One great brilliance of Unschooling is that it does look
different in everyone's home, and with each individual child - but the
freedom is still there - even the freedom to grump about and not seem to be
into much just now.
Robyn L. Coburn
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recently ...snip... I would say that seventy or eighty percent of the time
he doesn't want to go to new places. Maybe the answer there is always to
have someone to go with, so he can have some kid companionship.>>>>>
Maybe he is just taking a longer time than some other family members to
settle in, emotionally, to the new location.
<<<<<We did a big outing to the Monterey Aquarium during the three day
weekend, but that's an "old" place for us. We bought a membership and
told our friends that any time they wanted to go we would carpool down
with them. (We may not go to another "museum" for four months.)>>>>
We were just there too. And we also bought a membership. There is a nature
museum in Redding, CA that has a huge number of reciprocal memberships all
over the country. It is called Turtle Bay, and the membership seems
comparatively inexpensive.
There is a very cool newt in the film "Matilda". (Just some "unconnected"
trivia.)
<<<<(Neither of them would be panting by the
door, like dogs that want to walk to the park, which is the kind of
enthusiastic response to theater that I imagine some people may get.
<g>)>>>>
As someone who has worked in the theater at all levels for most of my
professional life, and really loved the life, I finally had to accept that I
was, nonetheless, *not* a theater-goer. Maybe he would be interested in
working in a theater rather than seeing it.
<<<<<<My husband's idea
of viewing pleasure is to surf and watch whatever *he wants* (normally
the History Channel), not anything that I have picked.>>>>
Aha! My husband's long lost twin separated at birth!!!
<<<<<<Unschooling at my house is so different from unschooling at your house
that I'm not sure that what I do could possibly still be unschooling.
Betsy (under dark rainy clouds today) >>>>>
Dear Betsy, the clouds will pass (maybe they already have). We have all been
reading your posts for long enough to know that you are unschooling (unless
you have secretly instituted some kind of imposed lesson regime that you are
keeping from us). One great brilliance of Unschooling is that it does look
different in everyone's home, and with each individual child - but the
freedom is still there - even the freedom to grump about and not seem to be
into much just now.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 4, 2005, at 10:13 AM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
an interest, not offering any input, how does he have a clue what there
is available in the world in which to express an interest?
-pam
> (I'm wanting to look more closely at the prior statement thatBetsy? If you are doing nothing but waiting around for him to express
> unschooling parents do a substantial amount of leading or initiating,
> whereas I think I mostly wait around for him to express an interest
> before taking any action.)
an interest, not offering any input, how does he have a clue what there
is available in the world in which to express an interest?
-pam
averyschmidt
> > (I'm wanting to look more closely at the prior statement thatinitiating,
> > unschooling parents do a substantial amount of leading or
> > whereas I think I mostly wait around for him to express aninterest
> > before taking any action.)express
>
> Betsy? If you are doing nothing but waiting around for him to
> an interest, not offering any input, how does he have a clue whatthere
> is available in the world in which to express an interest?I don't know how old Betsy's child is (what I'm about to say may not
apply to very young children) but this may be a function of how many
people are in the child's life besides Mom, whether or not cable (or
at least tv) is available, whether the internet is available,
whether there are magazine subscriptions, whether the child is
included on outings of various natures, etc.
If a family has a rich, busy, involved life the parents don't
necessarily have to make an out-of-context-point to introduce
something in order for a child to have access to it. In fact, my
children have introduced *me* to a few things along the way. :-)
That's not to say that out-of-context introducing things isn't a
good thing, just that it's possible for children to discover things
without their parents' pointed intentions.
Patti
Heidi
I didn't have the patience to download the video (dial-up) but read
the transcript, and some of the discussion about the incident. My
thought is, how awful for everyone concerned. They are stuck in an
inhuman and inhumane system which has as its chief goal, to further
itself. It isn't about educating kids, it's about keeping the system
going. It's about mechanical efficiency. Somehow, applying
the "science" of efficiency to human beings, isn't working, in more
ways than disrespectful teenagers.
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], "Julie"
<julesmiel@v...> wrote:
the transcript, and some of the discussion about the incident. My
thought is, how awful for everyone concerned. They are stuck in an
inhuman and inhumane system which has as its chief goal, to further
itself. It isn't about educating kids, it's about keeping the system
going. It's about mechanical efficiency. Somehow, applying
the "science" of efficiency to human beings, isn't working, in more
ways than disrespectful teenagers.
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], "Julie"
<julesmiel@v...> wrote:
> For anyone interested in reliving a little bit of school life andshot
> recognizing how far you've come, take a look at this brief video
> through a student's mobile phone. The teacher is awful, but I pityhim at
> the same time. He's just so uselessly frustrated in a brokensystem. It's
> especially ironic how the scene ends as "O'er the land of the free"is
> playing in the background.husband is
>
> http://www.fatwallet.com/t/69/440608/
> (Click on the video link.)
>
> (Another slice of school life for you sociologists out there: My
> still teaching because we haven't yet figured out how to earnenough money
> from other sources, so he was especially interested in this. Incontrast to
> the situation in this video, he said that about two people per daydecide to
> stand for the pledge of allegiance in his homeroom.)that you
>
> Julie in NY
> ________________________________________________
>
> "Acquire the courage to believe in yourself. Many of the things
> have been taught were at one time the radical ideas of individualswho had
> the courage to believe what their own hearts and minds told themwas true,
> rather than accept the common beliefs of their day."
> -Ching Ning Chu
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 5, 2005, at 1:36 AM, averyschmidt wrote:
-pam
> but this may be a function of how manyThose would all be examples of what I meant by parents providing input.
> people are in the child's life besides Mom, whether or not cable (or
> at least tv) is available, whether the internet is available,
> whether there are magazine subscriptions, whether the child is
> included on outings of various natures, etc.
-pam
averyschmidt
> > but this may be a function of how many(or
> > people are in the child's life besides Mom, whether or not cable
> > at least tv) is available, whether the internet is available,input.
> > whether there are magazine subscriptions, whether the child is
> > included on outings of various natures, etc.
>
> Those would all be examples of what I meant by parents providing
I see what you're saying. But those are all things (internet, tv,
people, places, magazines) that would be there even if the child
wasn't. I thought from Betsy's posts that she was referring more to
special things gotten specifically to catch a child's interest...
conscious input as opposed to input (like conversation) that's a by-
product of living a busy life.
My energy as an unschooling mother ebbs and flows, with my higher
energy times resulting in more of the conscious type of input, but
I've found that even when I'm exhausted or stressed for a while and
not doing much leading my kids go right on learning and discovering
things anyway. I remember one time bringing a book of short
biographies home from the library thinking that it was important for
me to "expose" my kids to these historical figures. It turned out
that they already knew about many of them from a time travel cartoon
on cable. :-)
Many of my children's various passions over the years, while
nurtured and supported by me, were definitely not introduced by me.
Patti
Sylvia Toyama
Is the unschooling.com site down, or is it just my puter? I've tried a couple of times this afternoon, but get the 'site can't be found' message.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia
---------------------------------
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/5/2005 6:38:21 PM Mountain Standard Time,
sylgt04@... writes:
Is the unschooling.com site down, or is it just my puter? I've tried a
couple of times this afternoon, but get the 'site can't be found' message.
--------------
Down.
Don't know why.
Once it was down for a month. Once for a half a day. This is the middlest
"down," then.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sylgt04@... writes:
Is the unschooling.com site down, or is it just my puter? I've tried a
couple of times this afternoon, but get the 'site can't be found' message.
--------------
Down.
Don't know why.
Once it was down for a month. Once for a half a day. This is the middlest
"down," then.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
I remember it being down for a month. We have a new computer, and the toolbars were doing weird things earlier...
Syl
---------------------------------
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Syl
---------------------------------
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
I remember it being down for a month. We have a new computer, and the toolbars were doing weird things earlier...
Syl
---------------------------------
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Syl
---------------------------------
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mkesinding
I haven't been able to get on the message boards for two days. I
miss lurking -- I'm starting to get lurkers withdrawal. What's
going on?
Maria
--- In [email protected], Sylvia Toyama
<sylgt04@y...> wrote:
found' message.
miss lurking -- I'm starting to get lurkers withdrawal. What's
going on?
Maria
--- In [email protected], Sylvia Toyama
<sylgt04@y...> wrote:
> Is the unschooling.com site down, or is it just my puter? I'vetried a couple of times this afternoon, but get the 'site can't be
found' message.
>
> Sylvia
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
<unschooling.info> is up and running!!!
Maybe this is a good time for people to go take a look there?
-pam
Maybe this is a good time for people to go take a look there?
-pam
On Mar 5, 2005, at 5:39 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
> Is the unschooling.com site down, or is it just my puter? I've tried
> a
> couple of times this afternoon, but get the 'site can't be found'
> message.
>
>
> --------------
>
> Down.
> Don't know why.
> Once it was down for a month. Once for a half a day. This is the
> middlest
> "down," then.
>
[email protected]
All the HEM sites are currently down, so my best guess (not having yet
official confirmation) is that they are in the middle of or having trouble with the
planned upgrade of the sites. Hopefully it'll all be up again sooner than it
was last august!
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
official confirmation) is that they are in the middle of or having trouble with the
planned upgrade of the sites. Hopefully it'll all be up again sooner than it
was last august!
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 3/6/05 12:02 AM, Pam Sorooshian at pamsoroosh@... wrote:
http://www.unschooling.info/forum/
Joyce
> <unschooling.info> is up and running!!!Here's a link that will take you directly to the message boards:
http://www.unschooling.info/forum/
Joyce
Elizabeth Hill
**
Betsy? If you are doing nothing but waiting around for him to express
an interest, not offering any input, how does he have a clue what there
is available in the world in which to express an interest?**
I wasn't trying to say that I initiate nothing, just that it is a far cry from a fifty-fifty balance of me leading then him leading, which is what I thought your tango metaphor was expressing.
I'm still thinking about how to give him as much access to the whole wide world as he will take. I will continue to consider your question abovr. What he has abundantly are TV stations, library books, play dates, walks, interesting used stuff and time and freedom.
It's not that we stay home all the time, it's that if I think we'd both be happier with an outing then what I offer is a familiar and deeply enjoyed outing (park, friend's house, toy store, beach, aquarium) not an unfamiliar outing, since his willingness to be talked into trying something new is very low. This is why I say I am not leading him in new directions or putting my efforts deliberately towards broadening him.
Since I don't find his interests very similar to mine and find them sometimes hard to guess since he is fairly closemouthed, I don't have a great track record picking outings. If I say "Hey, I'm sure it will be fabulous", he makes a skeptical face. And I think it's reasonable for him to be skeptical. It's not clear to me how to get past that. When to try to sway him and when to fully accept his decision without argument.
I think it would be incompatible with unschooling for me to insist on him going places when he declined. I get advice from my conventional homeschooling friends to do that, but it seems like the wrong way to go.
I'm sure it isn't incompatible with unschooling for me to learn to be a better saleswoman. (If you've seen cartoons showing how bad Dilbert is at salesmanship because he's the stereotypical engineer, that applies pretty well to me, too.)
Betsy
Betsy? If you are doing nothing but waiting around for him to express
an interest, not offering any input, how does he have a clue what there
is available in the world in which to express an interest?**
I wasn't trying to say that I initiate nothing, just that it is a far cry from a fifty-fifty balance of me leading then him leading, which is what I thought your tango metaphor was expressing.
I'm still thinking about how to give him as much access to the whole wide world as he will take. I will continue to consider your question abovr. What he has abundantly are TV stations, library books, play dates, walks, interesting used stuff and time and freedom.
It's not that we stay home all the time, it's that if I think we'd both be happier with an outing then what I offer is a familiar and deeply enjoyed outing (park, friend's house, toy store, beach, aquarium) not an unfamiliar outing, since his willingness to be talked into trying something new is very low. This is why I say I am not leading him in new directions or putting my efforts deliberately towards broadening him.
Since I don't find his interests very similar to mine and find them sometimes hard to guess since he is fairly closemouthed, I don't have a great track record picking outings. If I say "Hey, I'm sure it will be fabulous", he makes a skeptical face. And I think it's reasonable for him to be skeptical. It's not clear to me how to get past that. When to try to sway him and when to fully accept his decision without argument.
I think it would be incompatible with unschooling for me to insist on him going places when he declined. I get advice from my conventional homeschooling friends to do that, but it seems like the wrong way to go.
I'm sure it isn't incompatible with unschooling for me to learn to be a better saleswoman. (If you've seen cartoons showing how bad Dilbert is at salesmanship because he's the stereotypical engineer, that applies pretty well to me, too.)
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/6/2005 6:00:56 PM Mountain Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
If I say "Hey, I'm sure it will be fabulous", he makes a skeptical face.
----------------
Sometimes I just don't want to go by myself, and so I ask a kid to please go
with me. Sometimes they end up having lots of fun, and sometimes a little,
and sometimes the best part for them is the ride there and back, and the
feeling that they did me a favor.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
If I say "Hey, I'm sure it will be fabulous", he makes a skeptical face.
----------------
Sometimes I just don't want to go by myself, and so I ask a kid to please go
with me. Sometimes they end up having lots of fun, and sometimes a little,
and sometimes the best part for them is the ride there and back, and the
feeling that they did me a favor.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
Because he has shown himself to be
I did this week was make peanut butter from a peanut butter machine
that I got at a flea market (My dad's flea market, so I didn't have
to pay for it, but he would've sold it for $1.00 so it wouldn't have
been expensive for anyone). I also found one of those cookie press
things at the flea market($1.00) because my son has seen ads for them
on tv and has pointed them out to me several times, so I knew he'd
want that. There was also an old kitchen chemistry kit put out for a
quarter, and there were really neat ideas in there and even some
supplies that could still be used. So I bought peanuts and cookie
ingredients and yeast for the kitchen chemistry kit, and made peanut
butter and soft pretzels and (will make) cookies. If the kids hadn't
gotten interested that would have been okay, because I have to make
them food anyway, so I could've just made them myself and then given
them the peanut butter and pretzels to eat. But they REALLY got into
the pretzels, and my 5 year old REALLY got into punching down that
dough.
I tend to go crazy at yard sales buying stuff (which are summer
weather occasions only around here), and it's okay if I get so much
that we don't get to it for months or years or never, because I get
it REALLY cheap.
How does he spend his time?
conversation. Maybe he just doesn't want to go anywhere. It can get
to the point where you're working SO hard to try to find some little
way that you might possibly be able to get them to agree to go
somewhere. When I find myself at that point, I remind myself that
I'm probably trying to get him to do something he doesn't want to do
because *I* am worried that he "should" go out and do more things.
It really is a hard thing to balance though!
motives before I plan a trip. It's one way I've found that helps me
find that balance between offering cool stuff and pushing for
something because I think I/we *should*. Is it something you want
to do? Is it something you would want to go to even if he didn't
come along? Is it something that you *know* would trhill him, or is
it something that maybe you might be able to get him to go to without
a major amount of complaint? Are you doing it just because
you "should" get him out more?
When there was a winter festival at a nearby farm, I tried to get all
my kids to go. They all said no, and so we didn't go. I could've
gone by myself, but when I seriously considered it, I realized that I
didn't really want to go for myself. I wanted to go for them. I
thought it would have neat stuff to "expose" them to. After the
festival was over there was a story and pictures in the paper about
it, and I felt a pang of "Darn, I wish we could've gone", and again
realized that I wouldn't have felt that if I didn't have kids. I
really think it was a bit of schooly "expose them to a lot of
educational things" kind of feeling that still pops up every once in
awhile. I wasn't so much attracted to taking them to the festival
because of anything there that I thought would particularly interest
any one of them. It was just that it was a "good experience" that I
wanted to "expose" them to. It would make me feel like a good, well-
rounded unschooler. And it would make me feel "normal", like I go
lots of cool places with my kids like everyone else.
It's easier to explain unschooling to friends/relatives when you can
tell them about theatre productions and festivals and museums that
you went to, because all that sounds very "educational" and
impressive. In my state, it also makes good fodder for the
portfolio. But when your homebody kids stay home and read and cook
and play video games and watch tv and play, and it seems that every
time you tell them about what your kids are doing it's the same
thing, you feel a pressure to be "exposing them" to more so that you
sound more impressive. I know that it's not the same old thing every
day and that they learn and do interesting stuff all the time but to
other people who don't get unshcooling, it sounds like the same old
thing sometimes I think. That's been my experience, anyway. Good
thing we didn't choose to be parents for the purpose of impressing
our friends, huh? ;)
Sheila
> quite selective about what he'll approach, it seems like a waste ofchance he
> money to bring something home if there seems to be only a 25%
> will like it.Do you do yard sales and flea markets/thrift stores? One thing that
I did this week was make peanut butter from a peanut butter machine
that I got at a flea market (My dad's flea market, so I didn't have
to pay for it, but he would've sold it for $1.00 so it wouldn't have
been expensive for anyone). I also found one of those cookie press
things at the flea market($1.00) because my son has seen ads for them
on tv and has pointed them out to me several times, so I knew he'd
want that. There was also an old kitchen chemistry kit put out for a
quarter, and there were really neat ideas in there and even some
supplies that could still be used. So I bought peanuts and cookie
ingredients and yeast for the kitchen chemistry kit, and made peanut
butter and soft pretzels and (will make) cookies. If the kids hadn't
gotten interested that would have been okay, because I have to make
them food anyway, so I could've just made them myself and then given
them the peanut butter and pretzels to eat. But they REALLY got into
the pretzels, and my 5 year old REALLY got into punching down that
dough.
I tend to go crazy at yard sales buying stuff (which are summer
weather occasions only around here), and it's okay if I get so much
that we don't get to it for months or years or never, because I get
it REALLY cheap.
> When I am *following* his lead, and going with interests that Iknow he
> has (e.g. Garfield books), then I'd probably buy it.Is he happy and content? Does he seem to be needing something new?
How does he spend his time?
> **Do you never hear about a place to go and suggest it?**want
>
> I would say that seventy or eighty percent of the time he doesn't
> to go to new places. Maybe the answer there is always to havesomeone to
> go with, so he can have some kid companionship.This sounds familiar <grin>. Remember the hot dog/play date
conversation. Maybe he just doesn't want to go anywhere. It can get
to the point where you're working SO hard to try to find some little
way that you might possibly be able to get them to agree to go
somewhere. When I find myself at that point, I remind myself that
I'm probably trying to get him to do something he doesn't want to do
because *I* am worried that he "should" go out and do more things.
It really is a hard thing to balance though!
> I've been thinking about going to the theater,Why? I'm not saying it's wrong, but I've learned to examine my
motives before I plan a trip. It's one way I've found that helps me
find that balance between offering cool stuff and pushing for
something because I think I/we *should*. Is it something you want
to do? Is it something you would want to go to even if he didn't
come along? Is it something that you *know* would trhill him, or is
it something that maybe you might be able to get him to go to without
a major amount of complaint? Are you doing it just because
you "should" get him out more?
When there was a winter festival at a nearby farm, I tried to get all
my kids to go. They all said no, and so we didn't go. I could've
gone by myself, but when I seriously considered it, I realized that I
didn't really want to go for myself. I wanted to go for them. I
thought it would have neat stuff to "expose" them to. After the
festival was over there was a story and pictures in the paper about
it, and I felt a pang of "Darn, I wish we could've gone", and again
realized that I wouldn't have felt that if I didn't have kids. I
really think it was a bit of schooly "expose them to a lot of
educational things" kind of feeling that still pops up every once in
awhile. I wasn't so much attracted to taking them to the festival
because of anything there that I thought would particularly interest
any one of them. It was just that it was a "good experience" that I
wanted to "expose" them to. It would make me feel like a good, well-
rounded unschooler. And it would make me feel "normal", like I go
lots of cool places with my kids like everyone else.
It's easier to explain unschooling to friends/relatives when you can
tell them about theatre productions and festivals and museums that
you went to, because all that sounds very "educational" and
impressive. In my state, it also makes good fodder for the
portfolio. But when your homebody kids stay home and read and cook
and play video games and watch tv and play, and it seems that every
time you tell them about what your kids are doing it's the same
thing, you feel a pressure to be "exposing them" to more so that you
sound more impressive. I know that it's not the same old thing every
day and that they learn and do interesting stuff all the time but to
other people who don't get unshcooling, it sounds like the same old
thing sometimes I think. That's been my experience, anyway. Good
thing we didn't choose to be parents for the purpose of impressing
our friends, huh? ;)
Sheila
Pam Sorooshian
On Mar 6, 2005, at 9:17 PM, kayb85 wrote:
I think it is part of what unschooling parents do.
Betsy - if he goes along with 20 to 30 percent of what you suggest (you
said 70 to 80 percent of the time he didn't), then what's wrong with
that? Sounds like a good chunk of the time, to me.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with thinking that he ought to be
exposed to a theater experience. Find a local high school or community
college production of a lively rousing good-time show and say you want
him to go with you. Don't take him to an opera for his first live
theater performance, though - use good sense about what is likely to be
more fun for a novice theater-goer.
Same with other outings. We have local baseball and hockey teams -
their games are very entertaining. Be willing to stay for an inning or
two, only. Local festivals of all kinds - again - be willing to just
have a taste of them and then go. This will be Irish festival weekend -
go spend 20 minutes watching some Irish dancers somewhere. Mention to
him that their dresses can cost over a thousand dollars - wonder why?
Wonder how often they wear out their shoes? YOU read up on it a bit in
advance so that you can throw out a few tidbits of information - make
it interesting for him.
Stop by somewhere new on your way to a familiar place - "I just want to
stop in and see what this place is like....then we'll go to park day
after that."
Grocery shopping - pick up a fruit you've never tried and just say, "I
wonder what this is like - I'm going to buy one and cut it open at
home." When's the last time you had a pineapple or a coconut or a mango
or kiwi?
The first time you went the aquarium was the FIRST time. There had to
be a first time for all those things you listed as being tried and true
outings.
I'm not saying you have to be on the go constantly - but if you're
spending time at home, then home ought to be filled with opportunities
and experiences.
Maybe you're expecting too much in terms of "showing interest" for a
kid who doesn't express himself that way. He doesn't need to be wild
about things - just mild notice for a few minutes is enough. With a kid
who is so selective, who turns his nose up at so many of your
offerings, I don't see why you'd cut back and not offer much - why not
make more experiences and opportunities available so he has more to
choose from. Twenty percent of a hundred things is 20 --- twenty
percent of 10 things is only 2.
Also - you read 50/50 into what I wrote - when, in fact, what I wrote
was that sometimes one leads and sometimes the other.
I'm definitely not doing 50 percent of the initiating of my kids'
experiences and exposure anymore. They're too involved in their own
things for that. But I gave them a bit of exposure to all kinds of
things when they were younger and now they're "specializing" more and
more. And, even just a few months ago, I really pushed Rosie to try out
karate - and she loved it and it is now one of the main activities in
her life. If she hadn't liked it, she'd have tried a few classes and
then stopped. The karate studio has a 2 weeks free trial period.
But, I am on the lookout for things to share with them - for
interesting little tidbits of information - for a comic strip or a
website or a book or movie or tv show that I think they'll like.
When the kids were younger, I did buy a LOT of stuff in which they
showed absolutely no interest - I made a lot of mistakes. Sometimes,
later, one of them discovered something I'd bought years earlier and
loved it. Don't give up on providing interesting things and experiences
because you have only a 70 percent track record - that sounds pretty
good to me.
-pam
> I really think it was a bit of schooly "expose them to a lot ofI don't think "expose them to a lot of things" is necessarily schooly.
> educational things" kind of feeling that still pops up every once in
> awhile.
I think it is part of what unschooling parents do.
Betsy - if he goes along with 20 to 30 percent of what you suggest (you
said 70 to 80 percent of the time he didn't), then what's wrong with
that? Sounds like a good chunk of the time, to me.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with thinking that he ought to be
exposed to a theater experience. Find a local high school or community
college production of a lively rousing good-time show and say you want
him to go with you. Don't take him to an opera for his first live
theater performance, though - use good sense about what is likely to be
more fun for a novice theater-goer.
Same with other outings. We have local baseball and hockey teams -
their games are very entertaining. Be willing to stay for an inning or
two, only. Local festivals of all kinds - again - be willing to just
have a taste of them and then go. This will be Irish festival weekend -
go spend 20 minutes watching some Irish dancers somewhere. Mention to
him that their dresses can cost over a thousand dollars - wonder why?
Wonder how often they wear out their shoes? YOU read up on it a bit in
advance so that you can throw out a few tidbits of information - make
it interesting for him.
Stop by somewhere new on your way to a familiar place - "I just want to
stop in and see what this place is like....then we'll go to park day
after that."
Grocery shopping - pick up a fruit you've never tried and just say, "I
wonder what this is like - I'm going to buy one and cut it open at
home." When's the last time you had a pineapple or a coconut or a mango
or kiwi?
The first time you went the aquarium was the FIRST time. There had to
be a first time for all those things you listed as being tried and true
outings.
I'm not saying you have to be on the go constantly - but if you're
spending time at home, then home ought to be filled with opportunities
and experiences.
Maybe you're expecting too much in terms of "showing interest" for a
kid who doesn't express himself that way. He doesn't need to be wild
about things - just mild notice for a few minutes is enough. With a kid
who is so selective, who turns his nose up at so many of your
offerings, I don't see why you'd cut back and not offer much - why not
make more experiences and opportunities available so he has more to
choose from. Twenty percent of a hundred things is 20 --- twenty
percent of 10 things is only 2.
Also - you read 50/50 into what I wrote - when, in fact, what I wrote
was that sometimes one leads and sometimes the other.
I'm definitely not doing 50 percent of the initiating of my kids'
experiences and exposure anymore. They're too involved in their own
things for that. But I gave them a bit of exposure to all kinds of
things when they were younger and now they're "specializing" more and
more. And, even just a few months ago, I really pushed Rosie to try out
karate - and she loved it and it is now one of the main activities in
her life. If she hadn't liked it, she'd have tried a few classes and
then stopped. The karate studio has a 2 weeks free trial period.
But, I am on the lookout for things to share with them - for
interesting little tidbits of information - for a comic strip or a
website or a book or movie or tv show that I think they'll like.
When the kids were younger, I did buy a LOT of stuff in which they
showed absolutely no interest - I made a lot of mistakes. Sometimes,
later, one of them discovered something I'd bought years earlier and
loved it. Don't give up on providing interesting things and experiences
because you have only a 70 percent track record - that sounds pretty
good to me.
-pam