"reluctant" learner
natalie hessell
I was wondering what some thoughts were on some concerns I have about my 7
year old son. I have always wanted to homeschool, and was drawn to
unschooling. I feel it has worked well for us. My son has always been a
smart, mature in some ways, curious child. I have always seen him learning
through life. The whole family has learned so much through his interests.
He has always been a high need child, very resistant to change, and hard to
measure.
Recently he has not been interested in anything, except video games. He
doesn't want to go anywhere. He would play games all day if I let him, and
that would be fine if he limited himself and didn't become rude. So
recently I will have him not play during the day and be able to play in the
evening when his dad is home from work (they play together then). But he
doesn't want to do anything, and this is new. New, meaning since December.
My husband had been overseas for 2.5 months and came home then. That is
when the xbox came into our lives. Before then my son certainly did not
want to sit down and do lessons, but I saw his natural curiosity at work. I
feel that he has anger at his dad being gone, and the challenges that
situation created. Then his dad is home and they have this great new toy.
And that toy is a way of connecting with dad again.
So I wonder if this will pass or if I need to do something more active. He
does not read, and that is fine usually. I previously felt that he would
want to learn when the time was right. That is a hard one for me. As much
as I don't want it to matter, it does. I don't want to measure his
intelligence or measure our homeschooling success on reading, but I keep
coming back to it. He has no interest in learning either, he says it will
be too hard. He rejects anything where he thinks someone is trying to teach
him something.
On the positive side I have seen him be very confident in what he knows. I
have heard him tell people "I homeschool, I figure things out for myself, I
taught myself how to swim, etc"
Has anyone else ever been through this? I would like to hear from others
who have had children with this type do learning style and hear what worked
for them. Also I have a 3 year old and 8 month old daughters.
Natalie
year old son. I have always wanted to homeschool, and was drawn to
unschooling. I feel it has worked well for us. My son has always been a
smart, mature in some ways, curious child. I have always seen him learning
through life. The whole family has learned so much through his interests.
He has always been a high need child, very resistant to change, and hard to
measure.
Recently he has not been interested in anything, except video games. He
doesn't want to go anywhere. He would play games all day if I let him, and
that would be fine if he limited himself and didn't become rude. So
recently I will have him not play during the day and be able to play in the
evening when his dad is home from work (they play together then). But he
doesn't want to do anything, and this is new. New, meaning since December.
My husband had been overseas for 2.5 months and came home then. That is
when the xbox came into our lives. Before then my son certainly did not
want to sit down and do lessons, but I saw his natural curiosity at work. I
feel that he has anger at his dad being gone, and the challenges that
situation created. Then his dad is home and they have this great new toy.
And that toy is a way of connecting with dad again.
So I wonder if this will pass or if I need to do something more active. He
does not read, and that is fine usually. I previously felt that he would
want to learn when the time was right. That is a hard one for me. As much
as I don't want it to matter, it does. I don't want to measure his
intelligence or measure our homeschooling success on reading, but I keep
coming back to it. He has no interest in learning either, he says it will
be too hard. He rejects anything where he thinks someone is trying to teach
him something.
On the positive side I have seen him be very confident in what he knows. I
have heard him tell people "I homeschool, I figure things out for myself, I
taught myself how to swim, etc"
Has anyone else ever been through this? I would like to hear from others
who have had children with this type do learning style and hear what worked
for them. Also I have a 3 year old and 8 month old daughters.
Natalie
Fetteroll
on 2/26/05 7:47 PM, natalie hessell at nataliehessell320@... wrote:
being gone for a long time.
It could be he's a natural homebody. Or is evolving into one. Or he really
really really wants to play video games.
Play with him :-) And look at the joy on his face when he accomplishes
something hard he was trying to do :-)
as long as *he* wants to.
He won't learn how to control his reactions to his emotions if he isn't
allowed to experience the emotions.
When he gets testy you can say -- in a nice voice! -- "Nice voice, please."
You can sit with him when he plays. You can bring him food. You can suggest
breaks occasionally at the end of levels will help him not feel grumpy after
sitting so long. (Don't say it in a way that says he's wrong if he doesn't
take breaks. He needs to decide for himself if they're worth it or not.
Sometimes being grumpy may be worth it! But you can remind him with "Nice
voice please" that choosing to be grumpy doesn't mean he has to grump at
you. He can choose to be nice regardless of how he's chosen to feel.)
something he lvoes, the more he'll crave it.
My daughter has had braces for 2 years. She hasn't been able to eat carrots.
She has been able to eat candy because we don't limit it. (She eats way less
than I do!) When she went to get her braces off she took a container of
carrots with her. At the end of her appointment they handed her a bag of
candy as a special treat. She didn't open the bag. She had carrots in the
car. In fact the bag still hasn't been opened after 4 days (and there's some
good stuff in there too!)
Sandra has lots of stuff at her website about video games and limiting. When
she replies she'll probably have some specific pages to point you to but in
the meantime you can wander about at:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
Joyce
> Recently he has not been interested in anything, except video games.This is perfectly normal. Even without the added factor of your husband
being gone for a long time.
> HeSome kids don't. (We just had a discussion of that not too long ago.)
> doesn't want to go anywhere.
It could be he's a natural homebody. Or is evolving into one. Or he really
really really wants to play video games.
Play with him :-) And look at the joy on his face when he accomplishes
something hard he was trying to do :-)
> He would play games all day if I let him, andHe won't learn how much he needs if he doesn't have the opportunity to play
> that would be fine if he limited himself and didn't become rude.
as long as *he* wants to.
He won't learn how to control his reactions to his emotions if he isn't
allowed to experience the emotions.
When he gets testy you can say -- in a nice voice! -- "Nice voice, please."
You can sit with him when he plays. You can bring him food. You can suggest
breaks occasionally at the end of levels will help him not feel grumpy after
sitting so long. (Don't say it in a way that says he's wrong if he doesn't
take breaks. He needs to decide for himself if they're worth it or not.
Sometimes being grumpy may be worth it! But you can remind him with "Nice
voice please" that choosing to be grumpy doesn't mean he has to grump at
you. He can choose to be nice regardless of how he's chosen to feel.)
> SoAnything that's limited becomes something highly valued. The more you limit
> recently I will have him not play during the day and be able to play in the
> evening when his dad is home from work
something he lvoes, the more he'll crave it.
My daughter has had braces for 2 years. She hasn't been able to eat carrots.
She has been able to eat candy because we don't limit it. (She eats way less
than I do!) When she went to get her braces off she took a container of
carrots with her. At the end of her appointment they handed her a bag of
candy as a special treat. She didn't open the bag. She had carrots in the
car. In fact the bag still hasn't been opened after 4 days (and there's some
good stuff in there too!)
Sandra has lots of stuff at her website about video games and limiting. When
she replies she'll probably have some specific pages to point you to but in
the meantime you can wander about at:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
Joyce
Nicole Willoughby
When he gets testy you can say -- in a nice voice! -- "Nice voice, please.">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A varation of this I use with my 5 year old is to ask he if she is using a nice loving voice or a rude voice . Then I tell her how much I like it when she speaks to me in a nice loving voice.
If she has been doing something like playing her v-smile for a long time I might ask .....Do you think you might be a little grumpy because you havent eaten in a while? or because you need to stretch and jump a little ? ( we have a little mini trampoline for sensory issues and blowing off extra energy)
Nicole
Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
on 2/26/05 7:47 PM, natalie hessell at nataliehessell320@... wrote:
being gone for a long time.
It could be he's a natural homebody. Or is evolving into one. Or he really
really really wants to play video games.
Play with him :-) And look at the joy on his face when he accomplishes
something hard he was trying to do :-)
as long as *he* wants to.
He won't learn how to control his reactions to his emotions if he isn't
allowed to experience the emotions.
When he gets testy you can say -- in a nice voice! -- "Nice voice, please."
You can sit with him when he plays. You can bring him food. You can suggest
breaks occasionally at the end of levels will help him not feel grumpy after
sitting so long. (Don't say it in a way that says he's wrong if he doesn't
take breaks. He needs to decide for himself if they're worth it or not.
Sometimes being grumpy may be worth it! But you can remind him with "Nice
voice please" that choosing to be grumpy doesn't mean he has to grump at
you. He can choose to be nice regardless of how he's chosen to feel.)
something he lvoes, the more he'll crave it.
My daughter has had braces for 2 years. She hasn't been able to eat carrots.
She has been able to eat candy because we don't limit it. (She eats way less
than I do!) When she went to get her braces off she took a container of
carrots with her. At the end of her appointment they handed her a bag of
candy as a special treat. She didn't open the bag. She had carrots in the
car. In fact the bag still hasn't been opened after 4 days (and there's some
good stuff in there too!)
Sandra has lots of stuff at her website about video games and limiting. When
she replies she'll probably have some specific pages to point you to but in
the meantime you can wander about at:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
Joyce
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A varation of this I use with my 5 year old is to ask he if she is using a nice loving voice or a rude voice . Then I tell her how much I like it when she speaks to me in a nice loving voice.
If she has been doing something like playing her v-smile for a long time I might ask .....Do you think you might be a little grumpy because you havent eaten in a while? or because you need to stretch and jump a little ? ( we have a little mini trampoline for sensory issues and blowing off extra energy)
Nicole
Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
on 2/26/05 7:47 PM, natalie hessell at nataliehessell320@... wrote:
> Recently he has not been interested in anything, except video games.This is perfectly normal. Even without the added factor of your husband
being gone for a long time.
> HeSome kids don't. (We just had a discussion of that not too long ago.)
> doesn't want to go anywhere.
It could be he's a natural homebody. Or is evolving into one. Or he really
really really wants to play video games.
Play with him :-) And look at the joy on his face when he accomplishes
something hard he was trying to do :-)
> He would play games all day if I let him, andHe won't learn how much he needs if he doesn't have the opportunity to play
> that would be fine if he limited himself and didn't become rude.
as long as *he* wants to.
He won't learn how to control his reactions to his emotions if he isn't
allowed to experience the emotions.
When he gets testy you can say -- in a nice voice! -- "Nice voice, please."
You can sit with him when he plays. You can bring him food. You can suggest
breaks occasionally at the end of levels will help him not feel grumpy after
sitting so long. (Don't say it in a way that says he's wrong if he doesn't
take breaks. He needs to decide for himself if they're worth it or not.
Sometimes being grumpy may be worth it! But you can remind him with "Nice
voice please" that choosing to be grumpy doesn't mean he has to grump at
you. He can choose to be nice regardless of how he's chosen to feel.)
> SoAnything that's limited becomes something highly valued. The more you limit
> recently I will have him not play during the day and be able to play in the
> evening when his dad is home from work
something he lvoes, the more he'll crave it.
My daughter has had braces for 2 years. She hasn't been able to eat carrots.
She has been able to eat candy because we don't limit it. (She eats way less
than I do!) When she went to get her braces off she took a container of
carrots with her. At the end of her appointment they handed her a bag of
candy as a special treat. She didn't open the bag. She had carrots in the
car. In fact the bag still hasn't been opened after 4 days (and there's some
good stuff in there too!)
Sandra has lots of stuff at her website about video games and limiting. When
she replies she'll probably have some specific pages to point you to but in
the meantime you can wander about at:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
Joyce
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah
"He would play games all day if I let him,
and that would be fine if he limited himself and
didn't become rude. So recently I will have him not
play during the day and be able to play in the
evening when his dad is home from work (they play
together then)."
Confessions of an over-strewer: If my child shows an
interest in, say, games, I try to get my hands on
every game I think she might find interesting. It is
too bad, but I have squelched a couple interests just
by strewing too much! (This is not true for fairy
tales or Barbies, though.) There has got to be a
happy medium.
When Sophia was really little, probably 2 or 3, she
loved the TV. So, instead of really trying to get her
to do other things, which was my first approach
("Wannacaolorgotothezooplaythisgamegoseegrammagoseedaddy..."),
I tried to find all the shows I thought she'd like,
and literally, for about a month, she did little
besides watch TV. I took most of her meals and snacks
to the TV room and I gave her comfy blankies and I set
dolls and animals near her and I looked up her
favorite characters using the Internet and guess what?
She got bored! She had seen the shows, and for
awhile, she didn't watch much TV.
I love to knit...well, sometimes. I sort of
over-knitted and got a little bored, but at first I
knit as much as I could. I taught myself from a book
and I was really proud of myself. If my husband said,
"Sarah, if you knit all the time, you won't learn
anything else and you won't see the sunshine and your
fingers will get blistery and your eyeballs will start
to ooze," well, I would be annoyed with him and I
would probably try to knit in secret or something.
But he didn't say that. He really loved the things I
made and he was really proud and he supported me, and
the passion eventually became a good hobby.
Now I'm on to precious metal clay...and my husband
built me a work table...
BUT, if I would have kept knitting and if Sophia was
still watching 12 hours of TV a day...would those
interests be less valid?
My husband started sluffing school at 13. You know
what he did? He played video games and more video
games. He quit going to school at 14. He started
reading lots of books and taught himself to play
guitar, but mainly he played with the computer. He
taught himself a little about programming. He never
did get his fill of computers.
When he went back to school at age 22, he had to learn
a bit of math, but ended up with a computer
programming degree. He makes a pretty decent living.
I'm glad he spent a lot of time playing with
computers.
In writing all this, I really just wanted to say, your
son will like you more and your house will be more
peaceful if you help him play *more* computer games.
Who knows...it might turn into a career. Or, he might
get totally bored. But he'll get to decide! And it is
a lucky kid who gets to decide what he loves.
Sarah Anderson-Thimmes
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
and that would be fine if he limited himself and
didn't become rude. So recently I will have him not
play during the day and be able to play in the
evening when his dad is home from work (they play
together then)."
Confessions of an over-strewer: If my child shows an
interest in, say, games, I try to get my hands on
every game I think she might find interesting. It is
too bad, but I have squelched a couple interests just
by strewing too much! (This is not true for fairy
tales or Barbies, though.) There has got to be a
happy medium.
When Sophia was really little, probably 2 or 3, she
loved the TV. So, instead of really trying to get her
to do other things, which was my first approach
("Wannacaolorgotothezooplaythisgamegoseegrammagoseedaddy..."),
I tried to find all the shows I thought she'd like,
and literally, for about a month, she did little
besides watch TV. I took most of her meals and snacks
to the TV room and I gave her comfy blankies and I set
dolls and animals near her and I looked up her
favorite characters using the Internet and guess what?
She got bored! She had seen the shows, and for
awhile, she didn't watch much TV.
I love to knit...well, sometimes. I sort of
over-knitted and got a little bored, but at first I
knit as much as I could. I taught myself from a book
and I was really proud of myself. If my husband said,
"Sarah, if you knit all the time, you won't learn
anything else and you won't see the sunshine and your
fingers will get blistery and your eyeballs will start
to ooze," well, I would be annoyed with him and I
would probably try to knit in secret or something.
But he didn't say that. He really loved the things I
made and he was really proud and he supported me, and
the passion eventually became a good hobby.
Now I'm on to precious metal clay...and my husband
built me a work table...
BUT, if I would have kept knitting and if Sophia was
still watching 12 hours of TV a day...would those
interests be less valid?
My husband started sluffing school at 13. You know
what he did? He played video games and more video
games. He quit going to school at 14. He started
reading lots of books and taught himself to play
guitar, but mainly he played with the computer. He
taught himself a little about programming. He never
did get his fill of computers.
When he went back to school at age 22, he had to learn
a bit of math, but ended up with a computer
programming degree. He makes a pretty decent living.
I'm glad he spent a lot of time playing with
computers.
In writing all this, I really just wanted to say, your
son will like you more and your house will be more
peaceful if you help him play *more* computer games.
Who knows...it might turn into a career. Or, he might
get totally bored. But he'll get to decide! And it is
a lucky kid who gets to decide what he loves.
Sarah Anderson-Thimmes
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/27/2005 9:02:59 AM Mountain Standard Time,
sarahanne1@... writes:
In writing all this, I really just wanted to say, your
son will like you more and your house will be more
peaceful if you help him play *more* computer games.
Who knows...it might turn into a career. Or, he might
get totally bored. But he'll get to decide! And it is
a lucky kid who gets to decide what he loves.
This is important.
I know these ideas are foreign to people who were raised with lots of rules
and "safeties" and controls. It seems wrong to say "Let him have more of
what you fear."
He might not make a career of it, and he might not even get tired of it, but
it's a big part of understand learning to realize that when a child (or
anyone) is engrossed in an activity, others don't know and can't know what
they're thinking or learning. And ultimately it's none of anyone else's business.
If you're lucky and if you have a good relationship with your child, he'll
share those thoughts and ideas with you. If he feels you're an adversary
rather than a partner, he will share less. But the learning your children do
will not all be shared with you, and the sooner you know that and that you come
to peace with the idea, embrace it, welcome it, revel in it, the sooner you
can relax about wha tthey do and for how long they do it. The confidence that
they are always learning will infuse you and your life. Then it's easy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sarahanne1@... writes:
In writing all this, I really just wanted to say, your
son will like you more and your house will be more
peaceful if you help him play *more* computer games.
Who knows...it might turn into a career. Or, he might
get totally bored. But he'll get to decide! And it is
a lucky kid who gets to decide what he loves.
This is important.
I know these ideas are foreign to people who were raised with lots of rules
and "safeties" and controls. It seems wrong to say "Let him have more of
what you fear."
He might not make a career of it, and he might not even get tired of it, but
it's a big part of understand learning to realize that when a child (or
anyone) is engrossed in an activity, others don't know and can't know what
they're thinking or learning. And ultimately it's none of anyone else's business.
If you're lucky and if you have a good relationship with your child, he'll
share those thoughts and ideas with you. If he feels you're an adversary
rather than a partner, he will share less. But the learning your children do
will not all be shared with you, and the sooner you know that and that you come
to peace with the idea, embrace it, welcome it, revel in it, the sooner you
can relax about wha tthey do and for how long they do it. The confidence that
they are always learning will infuse you and your life. Then it's easy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie
Natalie wrote:
<<He rejects anything where he thinks someone is trying to teach
him something.>>
and
<<Has anyone else ever been through this?>>
I have, but as the child, not as the parent. Whenever I felt someone was
trying to impose something on me, I remember feeling very insulted,
frustrated, and not respected. It was as if the people who thought I needed
to learn something didn't accept me as I was, didn't think I was good
enough. I remember feeling very annoyed, but more than that, I was hurt.
I don't think I was a reluctant learner. I just didn't hesitate to stand up
for my rights and say "cut it out" when someone else decided when I needed
to learn something.
The memories I have connected to these feelings have to do with learning to
read, tie my shoes, and ride my bike. I am 32 and am able to do all three
now. :-) I finally taught myself to read and ride my bike, and I learned
how to tie my shoes with the help of someone at school. In my case, I just
needed space and time to learn in my own way, on my own terms.
My kind and well-intentioned parents think unschooling is a great idea now.
They needed some time to learn, too. :-)
Julie in NY
________________________________________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
-Albert Einstein
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/
<<He rejects anything where he thinks someone is trying to teach
him something.>>
and
<<Has anyone else ever been through this?>>
I have, but as the child, not as the parent. Whenever I felt someone was
trying to impose something on me, I remember feeling very insulted,
frustrated, and not respected. It was as if the people who thought I needed
to learn something didn't accept me as I was, didn't think I was good
enough. I remember feeling very annoyed, but more than that, I was hurt.
I don't think I was a reluctant learner. I just didn't hesitate to stand up
for my rights and say "cut it out" when someone else decided when I needed
to learn something.
The memories I have connected to these feelings have to do with learning to
read, tie my shoes, and ride my bike. I am 32 and am able to do all three
now. :-) I finally taught myself to read and ride my bike, and I learned
how to tie my shoes with the help of someone at school. In my case, I just
needed space and time to learn in my own way, on my own terms.
My kind and well-intentioned parents think unschooling is a great idea now.
They needed some time to learn, too. :-)
Julie in NY
________________________________________________
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
-Albert Einstein
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/
natalie hessell
thank you all for the input. We talked about it and are letting him take
the lead with the game playing. I am seeing the benefits and the things he
has learned from them. I realized I had a fear that didn't necessarily have
anything to do with my son. My dh comes from a family that is rampant with
alcoholism and other addictions as well. I believe seeing my son not be
able to do or want to do anything else caused me to fear that he would grow
up to be that way too. I am hoping that allowing him to make his own
decisions and take responsiblity for himself and growing up in an
unschooling environment will give the tools to succeed. I still really want
to see him do some other things, and from looking back I know he will when
the time is right.
Natalie
the lead with the game playing. I am seeing the benefits and the things he
has learned from them. I realized I had a fear that didn't necessarily have
anything to do with my son. My dh comes from a family that is rampant with
alcoholism and other addictions as well. I believe seeing my son not be
able to do or want to do anything else caused me to fear that he would grow
up to be that way too. I am hoping that allowing him to make his own
decisions and take responsiblity for himself and growing up in an
unschooling environment will give the tools to succeed. I still really want
to see him do some other things, and from looking back I know he will when
the time is right.
Natalie
>From: "Julie" <julesmiel@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "reluctant" learner
>Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:06:47 -0500
>
>
>Natalie wrote:
><<He rejects anything where he thinks someone is trying to teach
>him something.>>
>and
><<Has anyone else ever been through this?>>
>
>I have, but as the child, not as the parent. Whenever I felt someone was
>trying to impose something on me, I remember feeling very insulted,
>frustrated, and not respected. It was as if the people who thought I
>needed
>to learn something didn't accept me as I was, didn't think I was good
>enough. I remember feeling very annoyed, but more than that, I was hurt.
>
>I don't think I was a reluctant learner. I just didn't hesitate to stand
>up
>for my rights and say "cut it out" when someone else decided when I needed
>to learn something.
>
>The memories I have connected to these feelings have to do with learning to
>read, tie my shoes, and ride my bike. I am 32 and am able to do all three
>now. :-) I finally taught myself to read and ride my bike, and I learned
>how to tie my shoes with the help of someone at school. In my case, I just
>needed space and time to learn in my own way, on my own terms.
>
>My kind and well-intentioned parents think unschooling is a great idea now.
>They needed some time to learn, too. :-)
>
>Julie in NY
>________________________________________________
>
>"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."���
>-Albert Einstein
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/ �
>
>
>
>
>
Julie
I just wanted to share something I noticed in my own language and thinking
lately. I've become aware that I'm not entirely comfortable with using the
words "let" and "allow" when talking about our plans for living with our
long-awaited child (still in utero).
I used to describe unschooling to others as a situation in which parents
"let" the child learn in freedom. Now that's starting to leave a bad taste
in my mouth. I'm now more likely to leave the parents' authority out of the
definition and to focus on what the learner does and how she interacts with
those around her.
Of course, we will be "letting" our child pursue her own learning path. We
could impose our will and force her to do otherwise because we're bigger and
stronger and the law gives us more power. Joe (my husband) is more for
being blunt. I like to say we "adopted" our dog (from the shelter). He
likes to say we "bought" her because we paid the $30 fee. He's very much a
call-it-what-it-is person, and I tend to prettify the language to put the
focus where I want it.
What do others do?
Julie in NY
________________________________________________
"Acquire the courage to believe in yourself. Many of the things that you
have been taught were at one time the radical ideas of individuals who had
the courage to believe what their own hearts and minds told them was true,
rather than accept the common beliefs of their day."
-Ching Ning Chu
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/
lately. I've become aware that I'm not entirely comfortable with using the
words "let" and "allow" when talking about our plans for living with our
long-awaited child (still in utero).
I used to describe unschooling to others as a situation in which parents
"let" the child learn in freedom. Now that's starting to leave a bad taste
in my mouth. I'm now more likely to leave the parents' authority out of the
definition and to focus on what the learner does and how she interacts with
those around her.
Of course, we will be "letting" our child pursue her own learning path. We
could impose our will and force her to do otherwise because we're bigger and
stronger and the law gives us more power. Joe (my husband) is more for
being blunt. I like to say we "adopted" our dog (from the shelter). He
likes to say we "bought" her because we paid the $30 fee. He's very much a
call-it-what-it-is person, and I tend to prettify the language to put the
focus where I want it.
What do others do?
Julie in NY
________________________________________________
"Acquire the courage to believe in yourself. Many of the things that you
have been taught were at one time the radical ideas of individuals who had
the courage to believe what their own hearts and minds told them was true,
rather than accept the common beliefs of their day."
-Ching Ning Chu
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/
Kirk and Susan
In response to Julie's "let" question:
I let my sons pursue their own interests because I keep them home and
provide them that environment vs sending them to public school. We do
"allow" them to learn in freedom, because without our intervening on
their behalf they would be subjected to hours sitting in a classroom
being forced to learn in someone else's prescribed way, in a prescribed
time and someone else's agenda. Because we are the adults we "provide"
that privilege for them. Because the power/control to send them to
school or not send them to school is mine, I do "let" him stay home. It
is a privilege I afford them given the rules of our society.
Or that is how I look at it....Susan
I let my sons pursue their own interests because I keep them home and
provide them that environment vs sending them to public school. We do
"allow" them to learn in freedom, because without our intervening on
their behalf they would be subjected to hours sitting in a classroom
being forced to learn in someone else's prescribed way, in a prescribed
time and someone else's agenda. Because we are the adults we "provide"
that privilege for them. Because the power/control to send them to
school or not send them to school is mine, I do "let" him stay home. It
is a privilege I afford them given the rules of our society.
Or that is how I look at it....Susan
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/3/05 8:22:05 AM, julesmiel@... writes:
<< I used to describe unschooling to others as a situation in which parents
"let" the child learn in freedom. Now that's starting to leave a bad taste
in my mouth. I'm now more likely to leave the parents' authority out of the
definition and to focus on what the learner does and how she interacts with
those around her. >>
I usually say that I help them do what they want to do, but there is a REAL,
legal "letting" going on. I don't have to help them. I don't have to let
them. But I'm choosing too.
While there's an advantage to wording things in a way to empower children,
there might be a corresponding danger in forgetting or in them never knowing
that they have received a big privilege withou our culture, having parents who
forego their right and duty (hard to forget our duty to take care of our kids)
to follow a different path.
If something happens to parents, the surviving children's rights are then
subject to other adults' rights and duties and they might have no interested in
or inkling of the arrangement the parents had made with the child, let alone
the arrangements the parents had made in their own heads to tweak language and
thought and definition.
We can't define away all cultural realitie, nor do I think we should. We can
give our kids the option of staying home instead of going to school, but we
can't change the fact that without our willingness and cooperation, they would
not have a choice. We gave them the choice.
-=We could impose our will and force her to do otherwise because we're bigger
and
stronger and the law gives us more power. -=-
The law gives you responsibilities that you can't just blow off without mom.
It's not such a simple "NOT doing," there's a big deep DOING.
-=-Joe (my husband) is more for
being blunt. I like to say we "adopted" our dog (from the shelter). He
likes to say we "bought" her because we paid the $30 fee. He's very much a
call-it-what-it-is person, and I tend to prettify the language to put the
focus where I want it. -=-
Putting the focus where you want it is central to communications. A very
simple sentence such as "Are you riding with me to Denver?" can have its meaning
changed deeply by which word is emphasized. Seven different meanings to the
same sentence, with no more than a stressed word.
It costs money (way more than $30) to adopt a child. If you adopt, will your
husband like to say he "bought" the child?
Language is WELL worth examining and guarding, but we can't bend reality with
it.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
There's something about the difference between "teach" and "learn." Lots of
people come new to homeschooling or unschooling and claim not to understand
the difference, or say that teaching IS necessary, you might just not call it
teaching and it's just semantics, and they're not going to waste their time with
trivial word choices. But in that FLOOD of defensive language, what they're
saying is that they don't want to think about it very deeply. Without deep
thought and examination, unschooling is a waterbug that never gets below the
surface of the flood of ideas and words to real understanding.
So I salute you, Julie in NY who hasnt' had a baby yet, for wanting to move
beyond "letting" him do this or that, but stay on your feet and know that you
DO have authority and (at least linguistically speaking, and you will hope
legally speaking) even ownership of this child to some extent. He will be YOUR
son. So each choice you make is yours and each time you give him the reins to
make a choice, they were your reins to give.
Sandra
<< I used to describe unschooling to others as a situation in which parents
"let" the child learn in freedom. Now that's starting to leave a bad taste
in my mouth. I'm now more likely to leave the parents' authority out of the
definition and to focus on what the learner does and how she interacts with
those around her. >>
I usually say that I help them do what they want to do, but there is a REAL,
legal "letting" going on. I don't have to help them. I don't have to let
them. But I'm choosing too.
While there's an advantage to wording things in a way to empower children,
there might be a corresponding danger in forgetting or in them never knowing
that they have received a big privilege withou our culture, having parents who
forego their right and duty (hard to forget our duty to take care of our kids)
to follow a different path.
If something happens to parents, the surviving children's rights are then
subject to other adults' rights and duties and they might have no interested in
or inkling of the arrangement the parents had made with the child, let alone
the arrangements the parents had made in their own heads to tweak language and
thought and definition.
We can't define away all cultural realitie, nor do I think we should. We can
give our kids the option of staying home instead of going to school, but we
can't change the fact that without our willingness and cooperation, they would
not have a choice. We gave them the choice.
-=We could impose our will and force her to do otherwise because we're bigger
and
stronger and the law gives us more power. -=-
The law gives you responsibilities that you can't just blow off without mom.
It's not such a simple "NOT doing," there's a big deep DOING.
-=-Joe (my husband) is more for
being blunt. I like to say we "adopted" our dog (from the shelter). He
likes to say we "bought" her because we paid the $30 fee. He's very much a
call-it-what-it-is person, and I tend to prettify the language to put the
focus where I want it. -=-
Putting the focus where you want it is central to communications. A very
simple sentence such as "Are you riding with me to Denver?" can have its meaning
changed deeply by which word is emphasized. Seven different meanings to the
same sentence, with no more than a stressed word.
It costs money (way more than $30) to adopt a child. If you adopt, will your
husband like to say he "bought" the child?
Language is WELL worth examining and guarding, but we can't bend reality with
it.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
There's something about the difference between "teach" and "learn." Lots of
people come new to homeschooling or unschooling and claim not to understand
the difference, or say that teaching IS necessary, you might just not call it
teaching and it's just semantics, and they're not going to waste their time with
trivial word choices. But in that FLOOD of defensive language, what they're
saying is that they don't want to think about it very deeply. Without deep
thought and examination, unschooling is a waterbug that never gets below the
surface of the flood of ideas and words to real understanding.
So I salute you, Julie in NY who hasnt' had a baby yet, for wanting to move
beyond "letting" him do this or that, but stay on your feet and know that you
DO have authority and (at least linguistically speaking, and you will hope
legally speaking) even ownership of this child to some extent. He will be YOUR
son. So each choice you make is yours and each time you give him the reins to
make a choice, they were your reins to give.
Sandra
Julie
Sandra wrote:
<<We can't define away all cultural realitie, nor do I think we should.>>
Thanks, Sandra. Your response to my thoughts on using "let" and "allow"
inspired another thread. I've responded to the language issues in another
post.
Considering the cultural realities makes me think of John Holt's book _The
End of Childhood_, in which he argues for expanded rights for young people
(if I'm recalling correctly). What do all of you think about working to
legislate freedom for young people, at least incrementally? A waste of
time? Can't be accomplished through legislation? I have been focusing more
on the changes I can make in my own life because of disillusionment with the
political process, but our laws certainly don't respect young people. Also
wondering if you know any young people who have expressed an interest in
changing laws related to their rights.
Julie in NY
________________________________________________
"Acquire the courage to believe in yourself. Many of the things that you
have been taught were at one time the radical ideas of individuals who had
the courage to believe what their own hearts and minds told them was true,
rather than accept the common beliefs of their day."
-Ching Ning Chu
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/
<<We can't define away all cultural realitie, nor do I think we should.>>
Thanks, Sandra. Your response to my thoughts on using "let" and "allow"
inspired another thread. I've responded to the language issues in another
post.
Considering the cultural realities makes me think of John Holt's book _The
End of Childhood_, in which he argues for expanded rights for young people
(if I'm recalling correctly). What do all of you think about working to
legislate freedom for young people, at least incrementally? A waste of
time? Can't be accomplished through legislation? I have been focusing more
on the changes I can make in my own life because of disillusionment with the
political process, but our laws certainly don't respect young people. Also
wondering if you know any young people who have expressed an interest in
changing laws related to their rights.
Julie in NY
________________________________________________
"Acquire the courage to believe in yourself. Many of the things that you
have been taught were at one time the radical ideas of individuals who had
the courage to believe what their own hearts and minds told them was true,
rather than accept the common beliefs of their day."
-Ching Ning Chu
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/
Julie
Sandra wrote:
<< While there's an advantage to wording things in a way to empower
children, there might be a corresponding danger in forgetting or in them
never knowing that they have received a big privilege withou our culture,
having parents who forego their right and duty (hard to forget our duty to
take care of our kids) to follow a different path.>>
This is a good point. Being positive vs. not losing sight of the world as
it is -- something for me to think about.
<< If something happens to parents, the surviving children's rights are then
subject to other adults' rights and duties and they might have no interested
in or inkling of the arrangement the parents had made with the child, let
alone the arrangements the parents had made in their own heads to tweak
language and thought and definition.>>
Thanks for reminding me. :-) Joe and I still have to make a will. Now who
would be the best candidates for respecting kids...arrggh! That's a hard
one!
Julie in NY wrote:
<<Joe (my husband) is more for being blunt. I like to say we "adopted" our
dog (from the shelter). He likes to say we "bought" her because we paid the
$30 fee. He's very much a call-it-what-it-is person, and I tend to prettify
the language to put the focus where I want it.>>
Sandra wrote:
<< It costs money (way more than $30) to adopt a child. If you adopt, will
your husband like to say he "bought" the child? >>
An interesting question! I think in most cases he would say "adopt." But
if he wants to question something, he might say "bought" to inspire further
discussion. Maybe if we chose to adopt from country X because it was easier
and cheaper, he might look at it as a market decision and use the word
"bought" in certain situations and with certain people to be provocative.
(Only with those people who would enjoy a good discussion about questioning
the motives behind and the issues surrounding our decision.)
I think he says "bought" more often in relation to our dog because we're
aware of how animals are treated as commodities, and we talk about it
frequently. A recent conversation evolved from congratulating ourselves on
the fact our dog has a much better life than the dog next door to discussing
how much of a prisoner Fern (our dog) is. So I think he still says "bought"
as a reminder to me that we don't live in my personal dreamworld, as far as
the treatment of animals is concerned. They're still very much a commodity
to be bought, sold, and profited from. I say "adopt" with a beatific smile;
he grins sardonically and tosses back "bought" to remind me that we're not
living on Planet Happy.
<< Language is WELL worth examining and guarding, but we can't bend reality
with it.>>
Thanks. This is one of those sentences I will keep in the back of my head
and return to from time to time. Can we? Can't we? Maybe we can! I'm
thinking of Orwell's _1984_ here, not the most positive example. But those
in charge of language did control perceived reality, changing history daily.
Does language typically labeled as "PC" help to usher in a new reality,
reflect real changes in society, or does it just annoy people? And going
back to my own example of "let" and "allow," if I use language reflecting
freedom when speaking with grandparents and others about my child, might it
influence their interaction with young people in some subtle way? I really
have no idea. Just pondering at this point.
<< There's something about the difference between "teach" and "learn." Lots
of people come new to homeschooling or unschooling and claim not to
understand the difference, or say that teaching IS necessary, you might just
not call it teaching and it's just semantics, and they're not going to waste
their time with trivial word choices. But in that FLOOD of defensive
language, what they're saying is that they don't want to think about it very
deeply.>>
I just came to this realization on another unschooling list. I was talking
about how teaching is one part of unschooling and how I invited my mom to
teach me to crochet, but another poster helped me recognize the difference
between learning (information getting through) and teaching (tossing it out
there and hoping it sticks). I realized that in my case, I had been
equating teaching with learning.
<< So I salute you, Julie in NY who hasnt' had a baby yet, for wanting to
move beyond "letting" him do this or that, but stay on your feet and know
that you DO have authority and (at least linguistically speaking, and you
will hope legally speaking) even ownership of this child to some extent. He
will be YOUR son. So each choice you make is yours and each time you give
him the reins to make a choice, they were your reins to give.>>
I will keep this in mind. I love discussing language issues, so thanks
again for your thoughtful response!
Julie in NY
________________________________________________
"Acquire the courage to believe in yourself. Many of the things that you
have been taught were at one time the radical ideas of individuals who had
the courage to believe what their own hearts and minds told them was true,
rather than accept the common beliefs of their day."
-Ching Ning Chu
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/
<< While there's an advantage to wording things in a way to empower
children, there might be a corresponding danger in forgetting or in them
never knowing that they have received a big privilege withou our culture,
having parents who forego their right and duty (hard to forget our duty to
take care of our kids) to follow a different path.>>
This is a good point. Being positive vs. not losing sight of the world as
it is -- something for me to think about.
<< If something happens to parents, the surviving children's rights are then
subject to other adults' rights and duties and they might have no interested
in or inkling of the arrangement the parents had made with the child, let
alone the arrangements the parents had made in their own heads to tweak
language and thought and definition.>>
Thanks for reminding me. :-) Joe and I still have to make a will. Now who
would be the best candidates for respecting kids...arrggh! That's a hard
one!
Julie in NY wrote:
<<Joe (my husband) is more for being blunt. I like to say we "adopted" our
dog (from the shelter). He likes to say we "bought" her because we paid the
$30 fee. He's very much a call-it-what-it-is person, and I tend to prettify
the language to put the focus where I want it.>>
Sandra wrote:
<< It costs money (way more than $30) to adopt a child. If you adopt, will
your husband like to say he "bought" the child? >>
An interesting question! I think in most cases he would say "adopt." But
if he wants to question something, he might say "bought" to inspire further
discussion. Maybe if we chose to adopt from country X because it was easier
and cheaper, he might look at it as a market decision and use the word
"bought" in certain situations and with certain people to be provocative.
(Only with those people who would enjoy a good discussion about questioning
the motives behind and the issues surrounding our decision.)
I think he says "bought" more often in relation to our dog because we're
aware of how animals are treated as commodities, and we talk about it
frequently. A recent conversation evolved from congratulating ourselves on
the fact our dog has a much better life than the dog next door to discussing
how much of a prisoner Fern (our dog) is. So I think he still says "bought"
as a reminder to me that we don't live in my personal dreamworld, as far as
the treatment of animals is concerned. They're still very much a commodity
to be bought, sold, and profited from. I say "adopt" with a beatific smile;
he grins sardonically and tosses back "bought" to remind me that we're not
living on Planet Happy.
<< Language is WELL worth examining and guarding, but we can't bend reality
with it.>>
Thanks. This is one of those sentences I will keep in the back of my head
and return to from time to time. Can we? Can't we? Maybe we can! I'm
thinking of Orwell's _1984_ here, not the most positive example. But those
in charge of language did control perceived reality, changing history daily.
Does language typically labeled as "PC" help to usher in a new reality,
reflect real changes in society, or does it just annoy people? And going
back to my own example of "let" and "allow," if I use language reflecting
freedom when speaking with grandparents and others about my child, might it
influence their interaction with young people in some subtle way? I really
have no idea. Just pondering at this point.
<< There's something about the difference between "teach" and "learn." Lots
of people come new to homeschooling or unschooling and claim not to
understand the difference, or say that teaching IS necessary, you might just
not call it teaching and it's just semantics, and they're not going to waste
their time with trivial word choices. But in that FLOOD of defensive
language, what they're saying is that they don't want to think about it very
deeply.>>
I just came to this realization on another unschooling list. I was talking
about how teaching is one part of unschooling and how I invited my mom to
teach me to crochet, but another poster helped me recognize the difference
between learning (information getting through) and teaching (tossing it out
there and hoping it sticks). I realized that in my case, I had been
equating teaching with learning.
<< So I salute you, Julie in NY who hasnt' had a baby yet, for wanting to
move beyond "letting" him do this or that, but stay on your feet and know
that you DO have authority and (at least linguistically speaking, and you
will hope legally speaking) even ownership of this child to some extent. He
will be YOUR son. So each choice you make is yours and each time you give
him the reins to make a choice, they were your reins to give.>>
I will keep this in mind. I love discussing language issues, so thanks
again for your thoughtful response!
Julie in NY
________________________________________________
"Acquire the courage to believe in yourself. Many of the things that you
have been taught were at one time the radical ideas of individuals who had
the courage to believe what their own hearts and minds told them was true,
rather than accept the common beliefs of their day."
-Ching Ning Chu
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/
wifetovegman2002
--- In [email protected], "Julie" <julesmiel@v...>
wrote:
great grandchildren, or great great grandchildren. (Knowing how
slowly legislation is changed...maybe even great to the third
grandchildren?)
However, even within your own children's lives, you can give them so
much freedom and rights, simply by recognizing that they do have them.
Valerie Fritzenreiter's book _The Unprocessed Child_ is awesome
reading to further that endeavor.
~Susan McGlohn (VA)
wrote:
> Considering the cultural realities makes me think of John Holt'sbook _The
> End of Childhood_, in which he argues for expanded rights for youngpeople
> (if I'm recalling correctly). What do all of you think about working toIt is a worthy aspiration, and could have significant benefits to our
> legislate freedom for young people, at least incrementally? A waste of
> time? Can't be accomplished through legislation?
great grandchildren, or great great grandchildren. (Knowing how
slowly legislation is changed...maybe even great to the third
grandchildren?)
However, even within your own children's lives, you can give them so
much freedom and rights, simply by recognizing that they do have them.
Valerie Fritzenreiter's book _The Unprocessed Child_ is awesome
reading to further that endeavor.
~Susan McGlohn (VA)
Deb Lewis
***John Holt's book _The End of Childhood_, ***
"Escape From Childhood: The Needs and Rights of Children" Maybe my
favorite Holt book and the one apparently completely ignored by those who
want to claim John Holt never thought unschooling could encompass all of
life. It was published by Dutton in 1974, it's an amazing book. There
was some recent discussion here about one of Sandra's talks where she
encourages people to think dangerous thoughts. This book is full of
them.
From page 1:
"This is a book about young people and their place, or lack of place, in
modern society. It is about the institution of modern childhood, the
attitudes, customs, and laws that define and locate children in modern
life and determine to a large degree what their lives are like and how
we, their elders, treat them. And it is about the many ways in which
modern childhood seems to me to be bad for most of those who live within
it and how it should and might be changed.
For a long time it never occurred to me to question this institution.
Only in recent years did I begin to wonder whether there might be other
or better ways for young people to live. By now I have come to feel that
the fact of being a "child," of being wholly subservient and dependent,
of being seen by older people as a mixture of expensive nuisance, slave,
and superpet, does most young people more harm than good.
I propose instead that the rights, privileges, duties, responsibilities
of adults citizens be made *available* to any young person, of whatever
age, who wants to make use of them. These would include, among others:
1. The right to equal treatment a the hands of the law- ie., the right,
in any situation, to be treated no worse than an adult would be.
2. The right to vote, and take full part in political affairs.
3. The right to be legally responsible for one's life and acts.
4. The right to work, for money.
5. The right to privacy.
6. The right to financial independence and responsibility-ie., the right
to own, buy, and sell property, to borrow money, establish credit, sign
contracts, etc.
7. The right to direct and manage one's own education.
8. The right to travel, to live away from home, to choose or make one's
own home.
9. The right to receive from the state whatever minimum income it may
guarantee to adults citizens.
10. The right to make and enter into, on basis of mutual consent,
quasi-familial relationships outside one's immediate family-ie., the
right to seek and choose guardians other than one's own parents and to be
legally dependent on them.
11. The right to do, in general, what any adult may legally do. "
***What do all of you think about working to
legislate freedom for young people, at least incrementally? A waste of
time? Can't be accomplished through legislation? ***
No, I don't think it's a waste of time. Things have to change.
In the recent Supreme court decision which found the juvenile death
penalty unconstitutional, Justice O'Connor, one of two dissenting
opinions, said this:
She said:
"...The court's analysis is premised on differences in the aggregate
between juveniles and adults, which frequently do not hold true when
comparing individuals,"
She said:
"Chronological age is not an
unfailing measure of psychological development, and common experience
suggests that many 17-year-olds are more mature than the average young
'adult.'"
A supreme court Justice saying age is not the best factor for determining
a persons ability to understand and accept responsibility would seem a
step toward recognizing the rights of all Americans. Unfortunately the
questioning of arbitrary age limits occurs primarily when adults are
making decisions about how to punish kids.
People are afraid of children's rights issues in the way people are
always afraid to give power to the powerless. What dreadful fate awaits
the oppressors when the oppressed are finally given their constitutional
freedoms?
Deb L
"Escape From Childhood: The Needs and Rights of Children" Maybe my
favorite Holt book and the one apparently completely ignored by those who
want to claim John Holt never thought unschooling could encompass all of
life. It was published by Dutton in 1974, it's an amazing book. There
was some recent discussion here about one of Sandra's talks where she
encourages people to think dangerous thoughts. This book is full of
them.
From page 1:
"This is a book about young people and their place, or lack of place, in
modern society. It is about the institution of modern childhood, the
attitudes, customs, and laws that define and locate children in modern
life and determine to a large degree what their lives are like and how
we, their elders, treat them. And it is about the many ways in which
modern childhood seems to me to be bad for most of those who live within
it and how it should and might be changed.
For a long time it never occurred to me to question this institution.
Only in recent years did I begin to wonder whether there might be other
or better ways for young people to live. By now I have come to feel that
the fact of being a "child," of being wholly subservient and dependent,
of being seen by older people as a mixture of expensive nuisance, slave,
and superpet, does most young people more harm than good.
I propose instead that the rights, privileges, duties, responsibilities
of adults citizens be made *available* to any young person, of whatever
age, who wants to make use of them. These would include, among others:
1. The right to equal treatment a the hands of the law- ie., the right,
in any situation, to be treated no worse than an adult would be.
2. The right to vote, and take full part in political affairs.
3. The right to be legally responsible for one's life and acts.
4. The right to work, for money.
5. The right to privacy.
6. The right to financial independence and responsibility-ie., the right
to own, buy, and sell property, to borrow money, establish credit, sign
contracts, etc.
7. The right to direct and manage one's own education.
8. The right to travel, to live away from home, to choose or make one's
own home.
9. The right to receive from the state whatever minimum income it may
guarantee to adults citizens.
10. The right to make and enter into, on basis of mutual consent,
quasi-familial relationships outside one's immediate family-ie., the
right to seek and choose guardians other than one's own parents and to be
legally dependent on them.
11. The right to do, in general, what any adult may legally do. "
***What do all of you think about working to
legislate freedom for young people, at least incrementally? A waste of
time? Can't be accomplished through legislation? ***
No, I don't think it's a waste of time. Things have to change.
In the recent Supreme court decision which found the juvenile death
penalty unconstitutional, Justice O'Connor, one of two dissenting
opinions, said this:
She said:
"...The court's analysis is premised on differences in the aggregate
between juveniles and adults, which frequently do not hold true when
comparing individuals,"
She said:
"Chronological age is not an
unfailing measure of psychological development, and common experience
suggests that many 17-year-olds are more mature than the average young
'adult.'"
A supreme court Justice saying age is not the best factor for determining
a persons ability to understand and accept responsibility would seem a
step toward recognizing the rights of all Americans. Unfortunately the
questioning of arbitrary age limits occurs primarily when adults are
making decisions about how to punish kids.
People are afraid of children's rights issues in the way people are
always afraid to give power to the powerless. What dreadful fate awaits
the oppressors when the oppressed are finally given their constitutional
freedoms?
Deb L
Danielle Conger
Thanks for this info, Deb! This is one of Holt's books I haven't read
and didn't even know about and one that would mean a great deal to me
now. I've just ordered a '75 Ballantine edition of it from Amazon
Marketplace.
~~Danielle
Emily (7), Julia (6), Sam (4.5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
Deb Lewis wrote:
and didn't even know about and one that would mean a great deal to me
now. I've just ordered a '75 Ballantine edition of it from Amazon
Marketplace.
~~Danielle
Emily (7), Julia (6), Sam (4.5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
Deb Lewis wrote:
>***John Holt's book _The End of Childhood_, ***
>
>"Escape From Childhood: The Needs and Rights of Children" Maybe my
>favorite Holt book and the one apparently completely ignored by those who
>want to claim John Holt never thought unschooling could encompass all of
>life. It was published by Dutton in 1974, it's an amazing book. There
>was some recent discussion here about one of Sandra's talks where she
>encourages people to think dangerous thoughts. This book is full of
>them.
>
>
>