kayb85

My mom and I talked on the phone today, and she expressed concern
that my kids are really learning anything and are going to be okay.

She said, "But if they don't have to do anything, all they'll do is
play. They won't know to ponder what Milton meant in Paradise Lost
or learn algebra 2."

I tried to explain unschooling to her, but she just sighed and
said, "I can never get through to you".

She's a retired math teacher and is probably going to be taking a 3
month job as a permanent substitute math teacher at a high school. I
think that's what has probably sparked her concern. We've been
unschooling several years now, and homeschooling before that, and the
kids have never been to school. When we first decided to homeschool
she said that homeschooling was "a slap in the face to her
profession". She seemed to get over that though, and even seemed
supportive. When we got into unschooling she seemed to understand
it, even though she didn't completely agree. Now she's acting as
though she doesn't even understand it at all.

I think that now that she's taking a job as a teacher, her old "slap
in the face to her profession" feelings might be coming back, but
also genuine concern.

I was thinking of emailing her some articles about how kids learn
things, specifically math and literature since those were the
specific examples she mentioned. I looked through Sandra's articles
and thought maybe the Jubilation and Triangulation article?
( http://sandradodd.com/dot/hypotenuse )

I remember reading an article once about an unschooler doing stuff
that lead to Shakespeare. I think it started out by playing cards?
Was that on this list, or in a magazine, or....? Anyone know what
I'm talking about?

Any other suggested articles for a grandma math teacher worrying that
her unschooled kids are going to be okay? I think something that
shows how "playing" can lead to learning stuff she sees as only being
learned in school. She wouldn't read John Holt but she'd read a
short, interesting article. I'm also going to lend her Pam
Shorooshian's mathematical joy tapes and maybe one or two others.

Sheila

Heidi

a long time ago, when we were first getting started unschooling, I
wrote about my oldest daughter following her interests into
Shakespeare. I posted it here, but it's buried somewhere from two
years ago or maybe more.

It started with her reading Tolkien, from there into a love for
Medieval history, and early English literature, including Chaucer and
of course, Shakespeare. She's got several monologues memorized, and
opens on Saturday night as Narissa, from A Merchant of Venice.
Because she started reading Tolkien when she was 7ish.

Besides Shakespeare, this kid has forgotten more about English
history than I've ever known, from pre-Norman days through the
Tudors. She also knows a bit about Norse mythology...thank you
Tolkien!

I have a similar problem, my mom having been a public school teacher.
But things haven't been so bad for me, since my 17 year old has
always been such a reader. If she'd been more of a video gamer, or
watched more TV or something, my mom would've been more alarmed. She
seems to be, with the younger ones. Alarmed, I mean.

blessings, HeidiC


> I remember reading an article once about an unschooler doing stuff
> that lead to Shakespeare. I think it started out by playing
cards?
> Was that on this list, or in a magazine, or....? Anyone know what
> I'm talking about?
> Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/24/05 2:11:00 PM, sheran@... writes:

<< When we first decided to homeschool

she said that homeschooling was "a slap in the face to her

profession". >>

Huh.
So she took it personally, and further generalized the personal slight to an
entire profession.

Some people think her profession is a slap in the face of respect of children
(if not of the children themselves, at some points back up the line).

-=When we got into unschooling she seemed to understand

it, even though she didn't completely agree. Now she's acting as

though she doesn't even understand it at all. -=-

Maybe what seemed fine for younger kids didn't seem so good for older ones.

-=I think that now that she's taking a job as a teacher, her old "slap

in the face to her profession" feelings might be coming back, but

also genuine concern. -=-

Probably that's it. New thought triggering all related fears and concerns
and all...

Ask her to tell you stories after she's teaching. You could plant thought-bo
mbs along with it, by asking her things like why she thinks some kids are
math-phobes, and whether she's read Howard Gardner's multiple intelligences stuff,
and how she things math and spatial reasoning and logic are all worked into
what she does at school.

-=-She wouldn't read John Holt but she'd read a

short, interesting article. -=-

How about short, interesting John Holt interviews?

http://sandradodd.com/johnholt

Look through those and see if there's something that would help you.

Sandra

Elizabeth Hill

**

Ask her to tell you stories after she's teaching. You could plant thought-bo
mbs along with it, by asking her things like why she thinks some kids are
math-phobes, and whether she's read Howard Gardner's multiple intelligences stuff,
and how she things math and spatial reasoning and logic are all worked into
what she does at school.**

One of H. Gardner's books includes a summary of a study that shows that students studying Physics don't learn it. They never seem to unlearn their previous misconceptions about how objects move.

(I don't remember any more, but if the text is searchable on Amazon you could probably find it with the word "Physics". Or, if one had the book it would be in the index.)

Betsy

Pam Sorooshian

On Feb 24, 2005, at 7:36 PM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:

> One of H. Gardner's books includes a summary of a study that shows
> that students studying Physics don't learn it. They never seem to
> unlearn their previous misconceptions about how objects move.

"The Unschooled Mind: How Children Think and How Schools Should Teach"

Not just physics - he looks at the research on a whole bunch of
different subjects and shows that even when students have taken courses
in a subject, they almost never unlearn their previous misconceptions
about that subject, whatever it is.

-pam

Jenny Altenbach

I just saw John Travolta on Letterman--he described taking his daughter
on a midnight flight in their ultralight plane. He said that they are a
nocturnal family and have been known to hang out at Wal-Mart all night.
Dave asked him about school and he said that they homeschool and that
they are an unusual family who "make their own rules."

I'm intrigued. Anyone know more?

Jenny

Mary

From: "Jenny Altenbach" <salten@...>

<<I just saw John Travolta on Letterman--he described taking his daughter
on a midnight flight in their ultralight plane. He said that they are a
nocturnal family and have been known to hang out at Wal-Mart all night.
Dave asked him about school and he said that they homeschool and that
they are an unusual family who "make their own rules."

I'm intrigued. Anyone know more?>>



I know they have been homeschooling since Jett was school age. (their son)
At that time they had said that the boy went elsewhere to actually do the
schooling. That he kept school and home separate. Never actually said
someone else tutored him but I kind of got that impression. But that was
ages ago and maybe they loosened up a lot since then. I saw the show too and
it nice to hear the way he talked about their life being "strange." He said
they were like the Munsters or the Addams family, take your pick!

Mary B

Julie

I'm emerging from my two weeks of listening, so I just wanted to say hello
and introduce myself.

I first became fascinated with the concept of unschooling as I was deciding
to leave my job as a high school English teacher a couple of years ago.
Three-and-a-half years of trying desperately to give students freedom and
respect within the classroom led to the inevitable realization that schools
aren't really there for learning. I've done ESL tutoring online and by
phone since then.

Now my husband Joe and I are expecting our first child in April and looking
forward to living and learning with a little one here in upstate NY.
Although he still works as an English teacher to earn most of our income and
provide our health insurance, our ultimate goal is to spring him and give
him a chance to deschool and enjoy life. In the meantime, we have a window
on the world of compulsory education that provides fodder for good
discussions, and he has a job that will give him the summer to bond with the
new baby. Between the two of us, we could probably add a book to the Grace
Llewllyn/John Holt/John Gatto genre someday. :-)

After spending 23 years in one institution or another (school, college, back
in school as a teacher), I definitely needed some time to deschool. Only
recently have I felt as if I've gotten to the point of shaking of most
limiting, school-y notions and habits. Interestingly enough, I counted up
the months it took, and the grand total was 24. That oft-repeated idea
about it taking 1 month per year of schooling to deschool seems to be right
in my case.

I've enjoyed listening during the past couple of weeks and am looking
forward to sharing ideas.

Julie in NY
________________________________________________

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."   
-Albert Einstein
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/  

Julie

Sheila wrote:
<< She said, "But if they don't have to do anything, all they'll do is
play.  They won't know to ponder what Milton meant in Paradise Lost
or learn algebra 2." >>

I don't have an article to recommend, but perhaps you could point out that
they might not get a chance to appreciate either algebra or the works of
Milton in a compulsory school.

In the case of algebra, there is no guarantee that they'll learn it, even if
the information is offered. I loved quadratic equations, so I remember
them, but I only have the faintest inkling of graphs and sin, tangent...what
was that stuff?

I taught many levels and grades of English, but I never taught Milton.
Let's see...did I ever read him? Pretty sure I did, but I honestly can't
remember specifics. I gather he's pretty important, so I'm a bit
embarrassed. Should I be? Now how did I get a BA and an MA and only have a
faint whispering of Milton in my mind? How was I ever entrusted with
"honors" students? Maybe I'll brush up against him again in life and
something will stick. Maybe not.

My point is that formal schooling (and even advanced or specialized degrees)
offers no guarantee of appreciation or of the kind of learning that stays
with a person and can be drawn upon later. Maybe this would make some sense
to her?

Julie in NY
________________________________________________

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."   
-Albert Einstein
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/  

Julie

HeidiC wrote:
<< I have a similar problem, my mom having been a public school teacher. >>

I feel lucky. All of my immediate family members work or have worked in
schools, and they're on board with the whole unschooling thing precisely
because of what they've seen happening to kids in school.

Joe (dh and a teacher) and I often talk about people who work in schools and
don't seem to see the things that we see--that kids are really learning very
little and that much of their time is being wasted. Why don't teachers see
it? Or how many of them see it and pretend it's not there? If they
admitted that schools don't really work, then would other aspects of their
lives come crashing down? Is it just too much of a mental shift to absorb?
Just pondering...

Julie in NY
________________________________________________

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."   
-Albert Einstein
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/  

[email protected]

Marty and Brett (another unschooler) used to hang out at WalMart at night,
playing with the claw machine and the video games.

I'm impressed that millionaires with a plane would also hang out at WalMart.

Cool!

Sandra

Pam Sorooshian

Welcome, Julie!


On Feb 25, 2005, at 8:24 AM, Julie wrote:

> I loved quadratic equations, so I remember
> them, but I only have the faintest inkling of graphs and sin,
> tangent...what
> was that stuff?

I just have to ask -- what do you mean by "I remember them?" Do you
mean you remember the formula for finding the roots of a quadratic
equation? Or do you have an understanding of situations in which a
quadratic equation would be useful, how you'd figure out what equation
to use, why you'd want to solve for the roots, and what the meaning of
the roots would be? Do you know what a graph of a quadratic equation
looks like and what information it provides?

I don't mean to put you on the spot and quiz you -- but I have LOTS of
testimony from people who "hated" various math topics and I'd like to
hear more from somebody who "admits" <g> to having loved quadratic
equations.

-pam

kstjonn

The Travoltas are Scientologists. Their child, Jett, has Kawasaki's
Disease. Or rather, that is what JTravolta and Kelly Preston are
telling the press. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were
unschoolers.

As for the hanging out in Wal-Mart at midnight, it is probably
because celebrities often shop at off-hours so they can have the
store to themselves. They pay the store to open just for them and to
keep out other customers.

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/25/2005 11:21:33 AM Mountain Standard Time,
julesmiel@... writes:

They won't know to ponder what Milton meant in Paradise Lost


-=--------

I have a college English degree and haven't read a single paragraph of
Milton.
(Just an FYI. <g>)

There are those with English degrees who couldn't tell you a single thing
about Shakespeare, or English traditional ballads. I CAN!! But it's because
of my personal interest and continuing involvement, not because of anything I
was told in college.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/25/2005 11:21:33 AM Mountain Standard Time,
julesmiel@... writes:

I taught many levels and grades of English, but I never taught Milton.
Let's see...did I ever read him? Pretty sure I did, but I honestly can't
remember specifics. I gather he's pretty important, so I'm a bit
embarrassed. Should I be? Now how did I get a BA and an MA and only have a
faint whispering of Milton in my mind? How was I ever entrusted with
"honors" students? Maybe I'll brush up against him again in life and
something will stick.


----------------------------

We had to take either Milton or Chaucer when I was in the English program at
UNM. Chaucer was highly feared because one had to read it in Middle English
(not much like modern English at all). So at least for some number of those
who went to the University of New Mexico, studying Milton was the coward's
way out. <bwg>

I was interested in the history of England, so learning Middle English was a
big JOY for me.

No single person knows everything about any one subject.
No single person has to know anything about every subject.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dana Matt

> Joe (dh and a teacher) and I often talk about people
> who work in schools and
> don't seem to see the things that we see--that kids
> are really learning very
> little and that much of their time is being wasted.
> Why don't teachers see
> it?

When I was in college, I was going to be a teacher. I
got down to my last semester, and started my student
teaching--OMG! It was horrible. I was with a teacher
with a PhD in special ed, yet NONE of the kids were
learning anything, and she didn't try anything
interesting with them--just lecture from the
board--AND, she REQUIRED that we send at least two
kids to the office by lunch time! Every DAY! I
dropped out of the teaching program, changed my major,
and swore NEVER to send my kids to school!
Dana

=====
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Free Home Delivery in Whatcom County
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[email protected]

In a message dated 2/25/2005 12:29:54 PM Mountain Standard Time,
kara@... writes:

As for the hanging out in Wal-Mart at midnight, it is probably
because celebrities often shop at off-hours so they can have the
store to themselves. They pay the store to open just for them and to
keep out other customers.

====================




There are 24 hour walmarts, and I doubt anyone could afford to pay them to
CLOSE it for an hour. And unless they went out a side door, it would
defeatthe purpose of not being seen, as other customers would be waiting for the
doors to open or close.

Someone who's going to pay a store to open after hours will probalby pick a
better store than Walmart.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicole Willoughby

AND, she REQUIRED that we send at least two
kids to the office by lunch time! Every DAY! I
dropped out of the teaching program, changed my major,
and swore NEVER to send my kids to school!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What ? Why? ...............................

Im not sure my mom will ever completely loose the learning is divided into subjects one must study mindset......yet she left teaching. She taught 4th grade for a while and ended up with a 10 year old little girl pregnant yes really pregnant. She almost got fired for trying to get this girl help that she truly needed .
Then later she taught kindergarten and teachers were not allowed to touch their students. So she has these little 5 year olds barely even out of toddler stage who get feelings hurt, fall down etc but she cant give them a hug.
She got tired of all the "red tape" and paperwork she was having to do to keep administrators happy and how little teaching she was actually doing and changed professions.

Nicole

Dana Matt <hoffmanwilson@...> wrote:

> Joe (dh and a teacher) and I often talk about people
> who work in schools and
> don't seem to see the things that we see--that kids
> are really learning very
> little and that much of their time is being wasted.
> Why don't teachers see
> it?

When I was in college, I was going to be a teacher. I
got down to my last semester, and started my student
teaching--OMG! It was horrible. I was with a teacher
with a PhD in special ed, yet NONE of the kids were
learning anything, and she didn't try anything
interesting with them--just lecture from the
board--AND, she REQUIRED that we send at least two
kids to the office by lunch time! Every DAY! I
dropped out of the teaching program, changed my major,
and swore NEVER to send my kids to school!
Dana

=====
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100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
Free Home Delivery in Whatcom County
(360) 715-1900



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dawn Adams

> > Joe (dh and a teacher) and I often talk about people
> > who work in schools and
> > don't seem to see the things that we see--that kids
> > are really learning very
> > little and that much of their time is being wasted.
> > Why don't teachers see
> > it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

They're being paid not to. I think it was Socrates who said something to the
effect that teachers should never be paid. I imagine because it turns
something that she be done for the interests of the student and turns it on
its head to benefit the teacher?

Dawn (in NS)



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Sofia Blackthorne

My mother was a teacher when she was younger, because her father
refused to let her be just an English major. It nearly killed her, so
she became a librarian instead.
I think her experience is part of the reason she is considering
strongly unschooling my younger brother and I. (Which is why I've
joined this list. She doesn't know much about the internet, so she's
relying on me to help her find things out.)

--
Sofia Blackthorne
http://sofiasofiasofia.livejournal.com

Dana Matt

> My mother was a teacher when she was younger,
> because her father
> refused to let her be just an English major. It
> nearly killed her, so
> she became a librarian instead.
> I think her experience is part of the reason she is
> considering
> strongly unschooling my younger brother and I.
> (Which is why I've
> joined this list. She doesn't know much about the
> internet, so she's
> relying on me to help her find things out.)

This sounds just like my story. I was going to be an
English teacher, but couldn't stand the student
teaching, so changed to an English major at the last
minute, but ended up being a librarian. :)
Dana

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Roasted to Perfection Daily
Free Home Delivery in Whatcom County
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Kirk and Susan

So how old are you, Sofia, and your brother...this is an interesting
twist....What do you think of unschooking?

Susan Folk in Troy IL

Sofia Blackthorne wrote:

> My mother was a teacher when she was younger, because her father
> refused to let her be just an English major. It nearly killed her, so
> she became a librarian instead.
> I think her experience is part of the reason she is considering
> strongly unschooling my younger brother and I. (Which is why I've
> joined this list. She doesn't know much about the internet, so she's
> relying on me to help her find things out.)
>
> --
> Sofia Blackthorne
> http://sofiasofiasofia.livejournal.com
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
> ADVERTISEMENT
> click here
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129gjgtd2/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=groups/S=1705081972:HM/EXP=1109464594/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>
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Sofia Blackthorne

I'm seventeen and a junior right now; he's fifteen and a freshman.
I love unschooling. I think I'll seem more unschooled than he will - I
want to be a writer, whereas he wants to be an engineer, so he will
need much more technical knowledge. He'll spend more time studying
things. I think that will be a good experience for him, though, to be
able to devote himself fully to things like engineering projects. He's
also a really good carpenter and was hired by one of our parents'
friends to do some work. Dad helped him, just because he did need some
guidance, but he's very skilled. I think he would love to have more
time for that.


On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:50:44 -0600, Kirk and Susan
<kirkandsusan@...> wrote:
> So how old are you, Sofia, and your brother...this is an interesting
> twist....What do you think of unschooking?
>
> Susan Folk in Troy IL
>
>
> Sofia Blackthorne wrote:
>
> > My mother was a teacher when she was younger, because her father
> > refused to let her be just an English major. It nearly killed her, so
> > she became a librarian instead.
> > I think her experience is part of the reason she is considering
> > strongly unschooling my younger brother and I. (Which is why I've
> > joined this list. She doesn't know much about the internet, so she's
> > relying on me to help her find things out.)
> >
> > --
> > Sofia Blackthorne
> > http://sofiasofiasofia.livejournal.com
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> > http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >
> > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> > click here
> >
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129gjgtd2/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=groups/S=1705081972:HM/EXP=1109464594/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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>
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>
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--
Sofia Blackthorne
http://sofiasofiasofia.livejournal.com

Heidi

John Gatto talks about this somewhere in his myriad essays. Teaching
as a profession was frowned upon, though teaching something that one
is already proficient in, like cooking, or math, for that matter. Get
a mathematician to teach math...what a concept...

And the premise is right on: if a person gets paid to teach, it is in
his or her best interests that the students remain untaught as long
as possible, or in as many fields as possible.

Blessings, heidic

> They're being paid not to. I think it was Socrates who said
something to the
> effect that teachers should never be paid. I imagine because it
turns
> something that she be done for the interests of the student and
turns it on
> its head to benefit the teacher?
>
> Dawn (in NS)
>
>
>
> --
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> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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22/02/2005

kayb85

Thanks for all the article suggestions! I emailed a few to her
today, so we'll see what happens.

Sheila

Julie

Pam wrote:
<< I just have to ask -- what do you mean by "I remember them?" Do you
mean you remember the formula for finding the roots of a quadratic
equation? Or do you have an understanding of situations in which a
quadratic equation would be useful, how you'd figure out what equation
to use, why you'd want to solve for the roots, and what the meaning of
the roots would be? Do you know what a graph of a quadratic equation
looks like and what information it provides?>>

I only remember taking some very simple steps to solve them, so when I said
that I remember them, I guess I meant that I think I could still solve one
today, at least the simple kind I was given in school.

I had/have absolutely no idea of how they would be useful or what they
meant, but I got a kind of soothing pleasure out of following a series of
steps to arrive at a final answer--kind of the same feeling of
accomplishment I get after cleaning a grimy sink and making it sparkle. <g>
I'm not sure I appreciate the quadratic equations so much as the sense of
symmetry and order I got from them. Finding the value of X was fun!

So how ARE those quadratic equations useful out there in the world?

Julie in NY
Mom-to-be, Sophia or Dmitri (EDD 4-30-2005)
________________________________________________

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."   
-Albert Einstein
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/  

Julie

Sandra wrote:
<< No single person knows everything about any one subject.
No single person has to know anything about every subject.>>

How true, how true. I used to laugh at the unspoken conspiracy in our
English dept. not to admit what we didn't know. If your colleague is
speaking knowledgeably about the works of Blake, nod your head and play
along as best you can.

Towards the end I was cheerfully outing my ignorance at every turn in an
attempt at dispelling the myth that we were experts, but few had the guts to
join me. :-)

Julie in NY
________________________________________________

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."   
-Albert Einstein
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/  

Julie

Dana wrote:
<< I dropped out of the teaching program, changed my major,
and swore NEVER to send my kids to school!>>

How lucky you were to have such a horrible teacher to work with!

The teachers who guided me through student teaching were sensitive, caring
and trying to be progressive in their methods. That only gave me hope that
I would find "the answer," so I persisted far longer than I needed to. I
learned a lot, but it took a loooong time.

Julie in NY
________________________________________________

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."   
-Albert Einstein
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/  

Julie

Dawn (in NS) wrote:
<< They're being paid not to. I think it was Socrates who said something to
the effect that teachers should never be paid. I imagine because it turns
something that she be done for the interests of the student and turns it on
its head to benefit the teacher?>>

That's true. What you do as a teacher is being colored by the fact that
you're being paid to stay in step with the system, and that pay can be taken
away if you stray too far. It can become more about your safety and
security than about communicating something important to others.

I still wonder at the blindness among teachers, though. I mean, I can
understand people outside the schools not "getting" how that kind of
institutionalization can damage a person, but what about the people who live
it every day? It's physically and mentally painful to witness and
participate in. I guess it's a kind of blocking mechanism, similar to what
prison guards need to employ to stay in their jobs.

In the classroom, Joe just tries to be as human as possible, takes the
chance to form more "real" relationships with students when he can, and
tries to expose school for what it is through gentle mockery, especially
with the older students who are almost free. Still, it's hurting him to be
there. Our "Free Joe" campaign continues. :-)

Julie in NY
________________________________________________

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."   
-Albert Einstein
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingourselves/