literal meaning of "manipulation"
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I made a reference to "manus" in another post and intended to clarify. Sorry. Here that is.
"Manipulate," if you dissect it and lay out its parts, means to move things by hand. So when someone says someone was manipulated, it means they were treated marionette-like, and their movements were created by another person.
Persuasion, on the other hand, is done by trying to change another's thoughts or viewpoint or emotion, by using soothing messages in words. It's a much older word.
Entries from the Online Etymology Dictionary are below. These are histories of the words--not quite the same as current definitions, but I think they're more interesting myself.
From http://www.etymonline.com/
manipulation
c.1730, "a method of digging ore," from Fr. manipulation, from manipule "handful" (a pharmacists' measure), from L. manipulus "handful, sheaf," from manus "hand" (see manual) + root of plere "to fill" (see plenary). Sense of "skillful handling of objects" is first recorded 1826; extended 1828 to "handling of persons" as well as objects. Manipulative is from 1836; manipulate is from 1831.
persuasion
1382, "action of inducing (someone) to believe (something)," from O.Fr. persuasion (14c.), from L. persuasionem (nom. persuasio) "a convincing, persuading," from persuadere "persuade," from per- "thoroughly, strongly" + suadere "to urge, persuade," from PIE *swad-. Meaning "religious belief, creed" is from 1623. The verb persuade is first recorded 1513.
From an online American Heritage Dictionary entry (current useage):
http://www.bartleby.com/61/21/M0082100.html
manipulate:
1. To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner: She manipulated the lights to get just the effect she wanted. 2. To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously: He manipulated public opinion in his favor. 3. To tamper with or falsify for personal gain: tried to manipulate stock prices. 4. Medicine To handle and move in an examination or for therapeutic purposes: manipulate a joint; manipulate the position of a fetus during delivery.
"Manipulate," if you dissect it and lay out its parts, means to move things by hand. So when someone says someone was manipulated, it means they were treated marionette-like, and their movements were created by another person.
Persuasion, on the other hand, is done by trying to change another's thoughts or viewpoint or emotion, by using soothing messages in words. It's a much older word.
Entries from the Online Etymology Dictionary are below. These are histories of the words--not quite the same as current definitions, but I think they're more interesting myself.
From http://www.etymonline.com/
manipulation
c.1730, "a method of digging ore," from Fr. manipulation, from manipule "handful" (a pharmacists' measure), from L. manipulus "handful, sheaf," from manus "hand" (see manual) + root of plere "to fill" (see plenary). Sense of "skillful handling of objects" is first recorded 1826; extended 1828 to "handling of persons" as well as objects. Manipulative is from 1836; manipulate is from 1831.
persuasion
1382, "action of inducing (someone) to believe (something)," from O.Fr. persuasion (14c.), from L. persuasionem (nom. persuasio) "a convincing, persuading," from persuadere "persuade," from per- "thoroughly, strongly" + suadere "to urge, persuade," from PIE *swad-. Meaning "religious belief, creed" is from 1623. The verb persuade is first recorded 1513.
From an online American Heritage Dictionary entry (current useage):
http://www.bartleby.com/61/21/M0082100.html
manipulate:
1. To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner: She manipulated the lights to get just the effect she wanted. 2. To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously: He manipulated public opinion in his favor. 3. To tamper with or falsify for personal gain: tried to manipulate stock prices. 4. Medicine To handle and move in an examination or for therapeutic purposes: manipulate a joint; manipulate the position of a fetus during delivery.
jimpetersonl
Where is the line drawn? (Because of the inherent power difference
between parents and children, when is a parent persuading instead of
manipulating?
~Sue
between parents and children, when is a parent persuading instead of
manipulating?
~Sue
Fetteroll
on 2/21/05 9:37 PM, jimpetersonl at jimpetersonl@... wrote:
Since we can't know what the child is feeling we have to become aware of who
they are, what they want and the power differences between us.
*But* out of the context of a problem it's hard to discuss in a meaningful
way.
Do you have a personal situation you'd like to discuss? It's easier to
discuss principles when jumping off from a real situation. If we were
discussing a real situation, we could ask "What does the child want?" And
offer suggestions that are respectful of the child.
Joyce
> Where is the line drawn? (Because of the inherent power differenceInside the child.
> between parents and children, when is a parent persuading instead of
> manipulating?
Since we can't know what the child is feeling we have to become aware of who
they are, what they want and the power differences between us.
*But* out of the context of a problem it's hard to discuss in a meaningful
way.
Do you have a personal situation you'd like to discuss? It's easier to
discuss principles when jumping off from a real situation. If we were
discussing a real situation, we could ask "What does the child want?" And
offer suggestions that are respectful of the child.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/21/05 7:50:48 PM, jimpetersonl@... writes:
<< Where is the line drawn? (Because of the inherent power difference
between parents and children, when is a parent persuading instead of
manipulating? >>
It's different every time in each dyad. Some parents manipulate all the
time. It is neither ideal nor illegal. Some parents never manipulate nor even
learn to persuade, to the point that they are what is called "walked on" and
marginalized by even their own family.
In the middle is a balance point and that will be different in different
circumstances.
If I see one of my boys getting emotionally involved with a girl who seems
desperately needy to have a baby to get away from her family, that would call
for more commentary and discouragement than if he's liking a girl who seems calm
and thoughtful and balanced. To declare in advance a rule about how I will
be in future unseen circumstances would be to turn off my own freedom and
judgment.
Living by principles and not by rules, as I try to do, having a rule about
what is and what isn't violates my principles.
Sandra
<< Where is the line drawn? (Because of the inherent power difference
between parents and children, when is a parent persuading instead of
manipulating? >>
It's different every time in each dyad. Some parents manipulate all the
time. It is neither ideal nor illegal. Some parents never manipulate nor even
learn to persuade, to the point that they are what is called "walked on" and
marginalized by even their own family.
In the middle is a balance point and that will be different in different
circumstances.
If I see one of my boys getting emotionally involved with a girl who seems
desperately needy to have a baby to get away from her family, that would call
for more commentary and discouragement than if he's liking a girl who seems calm
and thoughtful and balanced. To declare in advance a rule about how I will
be in future unseen circumstances would be to turn off my own freedom and
judgment.
Living by principles and not by rules, as I try to do, having a rule about
what is and what isn't violates my principles.
Sandra
[email protected]
Sandra, I just want to thank you for your honesty and the way you explain things. I pray everyday to find that balance, not to manipulate, but to know when I need to speak more on something and when I need to not interject my own opinions. It is a day to day, moment to moment call, but one that I believe is worth finding. I don't ever want to return to that person that used manipulation to get my kids to do something. There are days that I feel myself starting to slip, but this list always help me get my perspective straight. Thanks again to you and all the moderators for your commitment to unschooling.
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/23/2005 10:55:55 AM Mountain Standard Time,
mirindia4@... writes:
I pray everyday to find that balance, not to manipulate, but to know when I
need to speak more on something and when I need to not interject my own
opinions. It is a day to day, moment to moment call, but one that I believe is
worth finding.
===============
There are some slogans some people find helpful in decision-making moments,
and one is "How important is it?"
My current problem (a small one) is my urge to suggest that Kirby not eat so
much breakfast cereal. I could easily put a spotlight on that by mentioning
it, though, and we've gone a long time without pressuring them about food.
He's just on a cereal binge, partly because we went a few weeks without much
whole milk (which he loves), and I got some Reese's Puffs, which is his
favorite. So I guess it will pass by, but I've had to breathe and NOT say a word,
and I'm glad. My guilt or "advice" would just be irritating. He won't eat
cereal exclusively forever (and isn't eating it exclusively now).
-=- There are days that I feel myself starting to slip, but this list always
help me get my perspective straight. -=-
Me too.
Thanks.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mirindia4@... writes:
I pray everyday to find that balance, not to manipulate, but to know when I
need to speak more on something and when I need to not interject my own
opinions. It is a day to day, moment to moment call, but one that I believe is
worth finding.
===============
There are some slogans some people find helpful in decision-making moments,
and one is "How important is it?"
My current problem (a small one) is my urge to suggest that Kirby not eat so
much breakfast cereal. I could easily put a spotlight on that by mentioning
it, though, and we've gone a long time without pressuring them about food.
He's just on a cereal binge, partly because we went a few weeks without much
whole milk (which he loves), and I got some Reese's Puffs, which is his
favorite. So I guess it will pass by, but I've had to breathe and NOT say a word,
and I'm glad. My guilt or "advice" would just be irritating. He won't eat
cereal exclusively forever (and isn't eating it exclusively now).
-=- There are days that I feel myself starting to slip, but this list always
help me get my perspective straight. -=-
Me too.
Thanks.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]