Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] manipulation and hot dogs, was Re: Manipulation.....
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In a message dated 2/20/2005 9:33:26 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
And growing up, transitions were always especially difficult for my brother.
My mom's description is that he never wanted to get IN the bathtub and then
he never wanted to get OUT of the bathtub. <g>
======================
All three of my kids are like that to some extent. Marty, particularly with
the bathtub when he was little. Sleeping--staying up late, sleeping late.
Happy on both ends but little preference for change just for the sake of
change. Content in the moment and hard to budge, commonly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
And growing up, transitions were always especially difficult for my brother.
My mom's description is that he never wanted to get IN the bathtub and then
he never wanted to get OUT of the bathtub. <g>
======================
All three of my kids are like that to some extent. Marty, particularly with
the bathtub when he was little. Sleeping--staying up late, sleeping late.
Happy on both ends but little preference for change just for the sake of
change. Content in the moment and hard to budge, commonly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Altenbach
SandraDodd@... wrote:
transitioning kid is that sometimes all it takes is saying "OK, we won't
go then. Should I call Nana and tell her we're not coming?" For some
reason, the reality of not going isn't really there for him until I say
something like that. Suddenly he doesn't want to NOT go even more than
he didn't want TO go. Usually he'll say "oh, all right. Let's go." Of
course, I am prepared to accept it if he says "yeah, call her and tell
her we're not coming." This has not happened very often though.
I was just thinking that maybe this happens to kids because they really
do live in the moment. Perhaps some of them just can't process feelings
of anticipation or reference past experiences very easily.
Jenny
>Another thing I forgot to mention in my last post about my slow
>
>
> ======================
>
> All three of my kids are like that to some extent. Marty,
> particularly with
> the bathtub when he was little. Sleeping--staying up late, sleeping
> late.
> Happy on both ends but little preference for change just for the sake of
> change. Content in the moment and hard to budge, commonly.
transitioning kid is that sometimes all it takes is saying "OK, we won't
go then. Should I call Nana and tell her we're not coming?" For some
reason, the reality of not going isn't really there for him until I say
something like that. Suddenly he doesn't want to NOT go even more than
he didn't want TO go. Usually he'll say "oh, all right. Let's go." Of
course, I am prepared to accept it if he says "yeah, call her and tell
her we're not coming." This has not happened very often though.
I was just thinking that maybe this happens to kids because they really
do live in the moment. Perhaps some of them just can't process feelings
of anticipation or reference past experiences very easily.
Jenny
Danielle Conger
==
For some
reason, the reality of not going isn't really there for him until I say
something like that. Suddenly he doesn't want to NOT go even more than
he didn't want TO go. Usually he'll say "oh, all right. Let's go." Of
course, I am prepared to accept it if he says "yeah, call her and tell
her we're not coming." This has not happened very often though.
I was just thinking that maybe this happens to kids because they really
do live in the moment. Perhaps some of them just can't process feelings
of anticipation or reference past experiences very easily.
===
*I* do that. If I'm feeling particularly presssured or obligated to go
somewhere, it often takes quite a bit to drag myself out of the house.
Sometimes, having the option of not going is enough to unstick me and
allow me to shift my perspective enough to embrace the trip.
There have been times when dh has really wanted to go climbing on the
weekend while the kids and I would be happier staying home. Just getting
him to shift his perspective to the possibility of going bouldering
alone or staying home and playing together on our climbing wall is
enough to let us begin thinking about all the reasons why we *would*
want to go with him and be outside near the river instead of home.
I think the pressure and the obligation are enough to make those of us
who may be somewhat obstinate dig in our heals that much more. The
pressure shifts the focus of the trip from having fun somewhere to the
right of self-determination--not a good shift for anyone.
~~Danielle
Emily (7), Julia (6), Sam (4.5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
For some
reason, the reality of not going isn't really there for him until I say
something like that. Suddenly he doesn't want to NOT go even more than
he didn't want TO go. Usually he'll say "oh, all right. Let's go." Of
course, I am prepared to accept it if he says "yeah, call her and tell
her we're not coming." This has not happened very often though.
I was just thinking that maybe this happens to kids because they really
do live in the moment. Perhaps some of them just can't process feelings
of anticipation or reference past experiences very easily.
===
*I* do that. If I'm feeling particularly presssured or obligated to go
somewhere, it often takes quite a bit to drag myself out of the house.
Sometimes, having the option of not going is enough to unstick me and
allow me to shift my perspective enough to embrace the trip.
There have been times when dh has really wanted to go climbing on the
weekend while the kids and I would be happier staying home. Just getting
him to shift his perspective to the possibility of going bouldering
alone or staying home and playing together on our climbing wall is
enough to let us begin thinking about all the reasons why we *would*
want to go with him and be outside near the river instead of home.
I think the pressure and the obligation are enough to make those of us
who may be somewhat obstinate dig in our heals that much more. The
pressure shifts the focus of the trip from having fun somewhere to the
right of self-determination--not a good shift for anyone.
~~Danielle
Emily (7), Julia (6), Sam (4.5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
>
>
Diana Tashjian
This is what I was beginning to think about some (not all) of the
situations described: that sometimes some of the kids might feel like
they just want to have some control over what's going on...
I also think tricking kids backfires and makes them less willing to go
along the next time and less trustful in general...
Diana Tashjian
situations described: that sometimes some of the kids might feel like
they just want to have some control over what's going on...
I also think tricking kids backfires and makes them less willing to go
along the next time and less trustful in general...
Diana Tashjian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danielle Conger" <danielle.conger@...>
<snip>
> I think the pressure and the obligation are enough to make those of
us
> who may be somewhat obstinate dig in our heals that much more. The
> pressure shifts the focus of the trip from having fun somewhere to
the
> right of self-determination--not a good shift for anyone.
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/21/2005 10:11:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Diana Tashjian" <dtashjian@...> writes:
situations described: that sometimes some of the kids might feel like
they just want to have some control over what's going on...
I also think tricking kids backfires and makes them less willing to go
along the next time and less trustful in general...<<<<<<<
BINGO!
I think the trust thing is lost.
Mine have realized eventually that I was right when I suggested that they go and that they would probably have a good time if they tried it. So I can use that later in negotiations.
Had I tricked and tried to manipulate them, I doubt they would have ended up trusting my opinions and suggestions. They may eventually have decided I had no idea what I was talking about and refused to go or try anything new.
~Kelly
>This is what I was beginning to think about some (not all) of the
situations described: that sometimes some of the kids might feel like
they just want to have some control over what's going on...
I also think tricking kids backfires and makes them less willing to go
along the next time and less trustful in general...<<<<<<<
BINGO!
I think the trust thing is lost.
Mine have realized eventually that I was right when I suggested that they go and that they would probably have a good time if they tried it. So I can use that later in negotiations.
Had I tricked and tried to manipulate them, I doubt they would have ended up trusting my opinions and suggestions. They may eventually have decided I had no idea what I was talking about and refused to go or try anything new.
~Kelly
[email protected]
-=-This is what I was beginning to think about some (not all) of the
situations described: that sometimes some of the kids might feel like
they just want to have some control over what's going on...-=-
Last night there was a PBS show on gorilla habitats at zoos. I didn't see all of it, just about half and that choppy. But one thing that was very cool was a discussion of giving them as many choices as possible. They're unwilling to mate when they don't have choices in their lives.
Animal behavioralists have said for a long time that perceptions of safety and of plenty help animals in the wild to decide to mate or to raise litters/offspring optimally. So it makes sense that with primates, one of their "safety" issues will be the feeling of power and choice.
Giving them choices is another way we can empower our kids, respect them, and make them real.
Sandra
situations described: that sometimes some of the kids might feel like
they just want to have some control over what's going on...-=-
Last night there was a PBS show on gorilla habitats at zoos. I didn't see all of it, just about half and that choppy. But one thing that was very cool was a discussion of giving them as many choices as possible. They're unwilling to mate when they don't have choices in their lives.
Animal behavioralists have said for a long time that perceptions of safety and of plenty help animals in the wild to decide to mate or to raise litters/offspring optimally. So it makes sense that with primates, one of their "safety" issues will be the feeling of power and choice.
Giving them choices is another way we can empower our kids, respect them, and make them real.
Sandra
[email protected]
-=-I have also offered websites and book titles to parents and
in-laws. Now, they have chosen not to read anything at this point but that
is their choice. At least I have offered information. -=-
Last night I manipulated a situation for one half a second. I reached over with my "manus" (hand) and paused a movie, because Holly had come into the room. It was the bloodily horrible, little Jody Foster screaming "NO" scene near the end of Taxi Driver, which I had never seen and decided to take off into Kirby's room and watch by myself.
Holly's lately interested in Robert DeNiro, so I had earlier shown her a pleasant, happy scene with him and Jody Foster, mentioned that they're considered two of the best American actors, and there they were young and together.
I didn't want Holly to have that bloody picture in her head, especially out of context. She asked me something, and I said I was sorry she had even seen THAT much, and turned to her in such a way that she wasn't looking at the screen anymore.
I wasn't being sneaky about watching that movie, and I didn't know how loud and bloody it would get. Holly really trusts me about movies and other things, though, because of years and years of my being honest with her, and compassionate when she insisted anyway, and willing to let her sleep with me if she was scared, and willing to help her talk through her concerns and fears and expressions of regret.
That can all apply to karate lessons and playdates too, I think. Trust is trust, separate from other things. It's one measure of the relationship between two people, and maybe it's the main part. So parents who have been manipulative or dishonest can change direction just a little, and avoid that in the future. But first they have to see it, and so I think this conversation is probably useful to a few lurkers and will be helpful to some in the future who wander in there and find it in the archives, too.
Sandra
in-laws. Now, they have chosen not to read anything at this point but that
is their choice. At least I have offered information. -=-
Last night I manipulated a situation for one half a second. I reached over with my "manus" (hand) and paused a movie, because Holly had come into the room. It was the bloodily horrible, little Jody Foster screaming "NO" scene near the end of Taxi Driver, which I had never seen and decided to take off into Kirby's room and watch by myself.
Holly's lately interested in Robert DeNiro, so I had earlier shown her a pleasant, happy scene with him and Jody Foster, mentioned that they're considered two of the best American actors, and there they were young and together.
I didn't want Holly to have that bloody picture in her head, especially out of context. She asked me something, and I said I was sorry she had even seen THAT much, and turned to her in such a way that she wasn't looking at the screen anymore.
I wasn't being sneaky about watching that movie, and I didn't know how loud and bloody it would get. Holly really trusts me about movies and other things, though, because of years and years of my being honest with her, and compassionate when she insisted anyway, and willing to let her sleep with me if she was scared, and willing to help her talk through her concerns and fears and expressions of regret.
That can all apply to karate lessons and playdates too, I think. Trust is trust, separate from other things. It's one measure of the relationship between two people, and maybe it's the main part. So parents who have been manipulative or dishonest can change direction just a little, and avoid that in the future. But first they have to see it, and so I think this conversation is probably useful to a few lurkers and will be helpful to some in the future who wander in there and find it in the archives, too.
Sandra