gas station attendants and algebra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/19/05 11:17:08 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< **In the back of mind though, I just keep hoping Im not setting them up
to be gas station attendants. I dont seem to "get" how these kids are
going to be ok if they never learn algebra or if they never WANT to
learn algebra.
even might get an A or B in an algebra class and haven't learned algebra.
My oldest never went to school, never had math lessons, and is getting a B in
math 99 a remedial college level math class, not for college credit, but if
he completes it I think he can go to math 120 next, or whatever the first
for-credit class is there. This still doesn't mean he's definitely learning
algebra, but he's doing better in that class than some others who went to school
for 12 or 13 years or more.
Here's what I think helped him: games, singing number songs, playing with
numbers, building things, messing with patterns, working in a store, having a
dad who's very math-minded (genetics). And the biggest help: He's not afraid
of it. He didn't go to school as a little kid and learn it was hard or yucky
or boring.
Sandra
<< **In the back of mind though, I just keep hoping Im not setting them up
to be gas station attendants. I dont seem to "get" how these kids are
going to be ok if they never learn algebra or if they never WANT to
learn algebra.
>>Most of the kids in school never learn algebra, never want to learn algebra,
even might get an A or B in an algebra class and haven't learned algebra.
My oldest never went to school, never had math lessons, and is getting a B in
math 99 a remedial college level math class, not for college credit, but if
he completes it I think he can go to math 120 next, or whatever the first
for-credit class is there. This still doesn't mean he's definitely learning
algebra, but he's doing better in that class than some others who went to school
for 12 or 13 years or more.
Here's what I think helped him: games, singing number songs, playing with
numbers, building things, messing with patterns, working in a store, having a
dad who's very math-minded (genetics). And the biggest help: He's not afraid
of it. He didn't go to school as a little kid and learn it was hard or yucky
or boring.
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
On Feb 19, 2005, at 12:44 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
"learning" all this - but they're not being rubber-stamped through the
system - they're not getting filtered through all the right channels.
Everybody knows - EVERYBODY knows - that most of what is taught to kids
in school just goes in one ear and right out the other. Everybody knows
there is little retention of material after a test. Teachers know,
parents know, kids know. It is interesting that researchers don't study
this more often - but "learning" is not really what most education
research is all about.
Ask any teacher to give a quiz on Friday and then go back in on Monday
and say, "Sorry - I lost the quizzes, you'll have to take it again."
The average score will drop dramatically - like the kids' brains were
drained over the weekend.
This is not news to anybody - including those who teach and continue to
GIVE the quizzes and tests.
I think it is not having the outside validation - the report cards, the
homework, the quizzes, the term papers, the tests, and the
parent-teacher conferences - all those things that parents use to
convince themselves that there just MUST be learning going on. Even
though we all know, at some level, that it is nearly all pretense it is
scary not to have all those external sources of validation. I think
parents have to be a lot more honest with themselves about what THEY
learned, what their own schooling taught them, how much do they honesty
recall from their own schooling - versus how much have they learned
outside of school. And - they need to realize that they're not the
exception - schooling is not conducive to learning - it isn't ideal, it
is simply convenient. I can't have a serious conversation about what
kids learn in school. I can't pretend with the other soccer moms that I
think their kids are being educated there. I can't talk about whether
they should teach algebra in 7th or 8th grades. I can't discuss the
merits of AP classes. I can't get all heated up over the kinds of
homework assignments they're getting.
Once you see clearly that emperor has no clothes, it is really hard to
seriously discuss his fashion sense <BEG>.
-pam
>I think maybe the fear isn't because people think their kids are not
> Most of the kids in school never learn algebra, never want to learn
> algebra,
> even might get an A or B in an algebra class and haven't learned
> algebra.
"learning" all this - but they're not being rubber-stamped through the
system - they're not getting filtered through all the right channels.
Everybody knows - EVERYBODY knows - that most of what is taught to kids
in school just goes in one ear and right out the other. Everybody knows
there is little retention of material after a test. Teachers know,
parents know, kids know. It is interesting that researchers don't study
this more often - but "learning" is not really what most education
research is all about.
Ask any teacher to give a quiz on Friday and then go back in on Monday
and say, "Sorry - I lost the quizzes, you'll have to take it again."
The average score will drop dramatically - like the kids' brains were
drained over the weekend.
This is not news to anybody - including those who teach and continue to
GIVE the quizzes and tests.
I think it is not having the outside validation - the report cards, the
homework, the quizzes, the term papers, the tests, and the
parent-teacher conferences - all those things that parents use to
convince themselves that there just MUST be learning going on. Even
though we all know, at some level, that it is nearly all pretense it is
scary not to have all those external sources of validation. I think
parents have to be a lot more honest with themselves about what THEY
learned, what their own schooling taught them, how much do they honesty
recall from their own schooling - versus how much have they learned
outside of school. And - they need to realize that they're not the
exception - schooling is not conducive to learning - it isn't ideal, it
is simply convenient. I can't have a serious conversation about what
kids learn in school. I can't pretend with the other soccer moms that I
think their kids are being educated there. I can't talk about whether
they should teach algebra in 7th or 8th grades. I can't discuss the
merits of AP classes. I can't get all heated up over the kinds of
homework assignments they're getting.
Once you see clearly that emperor has no clothes, it is really hard to
seriously discuss his fashion sense <BEG>.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/19/2005 4:58:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
that he knew we would take this course and that we'd all do our parts to make
the grade and that at the end of it all we would "dump the disk". Basically,
"retained long enough to make a passing or better grade and then pretty much
forgotten".
Funny how he knew it and we knew it. He would then go on to tell us that he
didn't want that and that he'd do his best to make the class more interesting
so we'd WANT to retain it.
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
> Ask any teacher to give a quiz on Friday and then go back in on MondayHow true. I had a professor in college that had a saying. He would tell us
> and say, "Sorry - I lost the quizzes, you'll have to take it again."
> The average score will drop dramatically - like the kids' brains were
> drained over the weekend.
that he knew we would take this course and that we'd all do our parts to make
the grade and that at the end of it all we would "dump the disk". Basically,
"retained long enough to make a passing or better grade and then pretty much
forgotten".
Funny how he knew it and we knew it. He would then go on to tell us that he
didn't want that and that he'd do his best to make the class more interesting
so we'd WANT to retain it.
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**
I think maybe the fear isn't because people think their kids are not
"learning" all this - but they're not being rubber-stamped through the
system - they're not getting filtered through all the right channels.
Everybody knows - EVERYBODY knows - that most of what is taught to kids
in school just goes in one ear and right out the other. **
(I see the Emperor's butt! He's not wearing any clothes at all!)
Yeah, people can know it (sometimes), but the brainwashing is really strong. I think this is the idea that I stumble over the most when I worry about whether my kid can and will learn enough *math* to get a job where he can pay his bills. Like many would-be unschoolers, I sometimes worry specifically about my kid learning math. And it's hard to stop worrying about how math will be learned, because I believe I learned a lot of math in school. (I forgot some of it, but not all of it.)
I have math-enthusiast genes from my dad. I did math workbooks outside of school, when I was 5 or 6. This was my parents idea, but I think I did it voluntarily. I excelled in Math classes, but unlike Reading, I don't think I knew it all before arriving at school. In Jr. High and High School, I did math homework nearly every school night. (OK, I think I understood it, *because* of my math aptitude. Other students trying to do homework *without* understanding it certainly didn't learn from the homework.) In college I took more math classes for the first two years and then my upper division and graduate classes used that math. If my son is only spending 1/20th the amount of time on math that I did, will he eventually learn "enough" math? (I made lots more money in my twenties than most of my math-phobic friends, because I worked as an engineer.)
**I think parents have to be a lot more honest with themselves about what THEY
learned, what their own schooling taught them, how much do they honesty
recall from their own schooling - versus how much have they learned **
Right, I had the mini-epiphany recently that even though I know we studied South America for a long time in Sixth Grade, I can only correctly identify the countries in S. A. that are shown on the RISK board. And I learned to read before starting school, so I knew that all those reading lessons did nothing for me. I learned a lot about history because I read a lot outside of school and had enough mental "hooks" that history lectures were sometimes meaningful to me, even though they were just tiresome "blah blah blah" to the other students. And I know that I only retained foreign language reading fluency to the extent that I chose to continue using the language outside of school. I know a big percentage of people forgot how to say anything but "Bonjour" or "Hola". I think I realize that I didn't learn much from most of my school classes, unless I learned outside of school, but I've been thinking that Math was an exception.
Thanks for listening while I work though this.
Betsy
**
Once you see clearly that emperor has no clothes, it is really hard to
seriously discuss his fashion sense <BEG>.**
Hey -- I wrote my first paragraph w/o reading your last paragraph! I can think like you with my eyes shut! A good trick!
I think maybe the fear isn't because people think their kids are not
"learning" all this - but they're not being rubber-stamped through the
system - they're not getting filtered through all the right channels.
Everybody knows - EVERYBODY knows - that most of what is taught to kids
in school just goes in one ear and right out the other. **
(I see the Emperor's butt! He's not wearing any clothes at all!)
Yeah, people can know it (sometimes), but the brainwashing is really strong. I think this is the idea that I stumble over the most when I worry about whether my kid can and will learn enough *math* to get a job where he can pay his bills. Like many would-be unschoolers, I sometimes worry specifically about my kid learning math. And it's hard to stop worrying about how math will be learned, because I believe I learned a lot of math in school. (I forgot some of it, but not all of it.)
I have math-enthusiast genes from my dad. I did math workbooks outside of school, when I was 5 or 6. This was my parents idea, but I think I did it voluntarily. I excelled in Math classes, but unlike Reading, I don't think I knew it all before arriving at school. In Jr. High and High School, I did math homework nearly every school night. (OK, I think I understood it, *because* of my math aptitude. Other students trying to do homework *without* understanding it certainly didn't learn from the homework.) In college I took more math classes for the first two years and then my upper division and graduate classes used that math. If my son is only spending 1/20th the amount of time on math that I did, will he eventually learn "enough" math? (I made lots more money in my twenties than most of my math-phobic friends, because I worked as an engineer.)
**I think parents have to be a lot more honest with themselves about what THEY
learned, what their own schooling taught them, how much do they honesty
recall from their own schooling - versus how much have they learned **
Right, I had the mini-epiphany recently that even though I know we studied South America for a long time in Sixth Grade, I can only correctly identify the countries in S. A. that are shown on the RISK board. And I learned to read before starting school, so I knew that all those reading lessons did nothing for me. I learned a lot about history because I read a lot outside of school and had enough mental "hooks" that history lectures were sometimes meaningful to me, even though they were just tiresome "blah blah blah" to the other students. And I know that I only retained foreign language reading fluency to the extent that I chose to continue using the language outside of school. I know a big percentage of people forgot how to say anything but "Bonjour" or "Hola". I think I realize that I didn't learn much from most of my school classes, unless I learned outside of school, but I've been thinking that Math was an exception.
Thanks for listening while I work though this.
Betsy
**
Once you see clearly that emperor has no clothes, it is really hard to
seriously discuss his fashion sense <BEG>.**
Hey -- I wrote my first paragraph w/o reading your last paragraph! I can think like you with my eyes shut! A good trick!
[email protected]
-=-Everybody knows - EVERYBODY knows - that most of what is taught to kids
in school just goes in one ear and right out the other. Everybody knows
there is little retention of material after a test. Teachers know,
parents know, kids know. -=-
The critics of unschooling certainly pretend not to know.
Many worried unschooling parents forget they know it.
-=-I think parents have to be a lot more honest with themselves about what THEY learned, what their own schooling taught them, how much do they honesty recall from their own schooling - versus how much have they learned outside of school.-=-
I think every moment an unschooling parent spends reflecting on what and how and where she learned things is time well invested, as to being a good unschooling mom.
Sandra
in school just goes in one ear and right out the other. Everybody knows
there is little retention of material after a test. Teachers know,
parents know, kids know. -=-
The critics of unschooling certainly pretend not to know.
Many worried unschooling parents forget they know it.
-=-I think parents have to be a lot more honest with themselves about what THEY learned, what their own schooling taught them, how much do they honesty recall from their own schooling - versus how much have they learned outside of school.-=-
I think every moment an unschooling parent spends reflecting on what and how and where she learned things is time well invested, as to being a good unschooling mom.
Sandra
somedayhomefree
Thats a good point, in school I could barely stand to hear one more
history lesson! I absolutely loathed it. I think I learned next to
nothing and could only recite to you the year Colombus supposedly
discovered America. It was later on after school on my own that I
discovered how interesting it was. I was so shocked how many years I
refused to hear any of it, and found interest in none of it.
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
worry about whether my kid can and will learn enough *math* to get a
job where he can pay his bills. Like many would-be unschoolers, I
sometimes worry specifically about my kid learning math. And it's
hard to stop worrying about how math will be learned, because I
believe I learned a lot of math in school. (I forgot some of it, but
not all of it.)
think I did it voluntarily. I excelled in Math classes, but unlike
Reading, I don't think I knew it all before arriving at school. In
Jr. High and High School, I did math homework nearly every school
night. (OK, I think I understood it, *because* of my math aptitude.
Other students trying to do homework *without* understanding it
certainly didn't learn from the homework.) In college I took more math
classes for the first two years and then my upper division and
graduate classes used that math. If my son is only spending 1/20th
the amount of time on math that I did, will he eventually learn
"enough" math? (I made lots more money in my twenties than most of my
math-phobic friends, because I worked as an engineer.)
correctly identify the countries in S. A. that are shown on the RISK
board. And I learned to read before starting school, so I knew that
all those reading lessons did nothing for me. I learned a lot about
history because I read a lot outside of school and had enough mental
"hooks" that history lectures were sometimes meaningful to me, even
though they were just tiresome "blah blah blah" to the other students.
And I know that I only retained foreign language reading fluency to
the extent that I chose to continue using the language outside of
school. I know a big percentage of people forgot how to say anything
but "Bonjour" or "Hola". I think I realize that I didn't learn much
from most of my school classes, unless I learned outside of school,
but I've been thinking that Math was an exception.
history lesson! I absolutely loathed it. I think I learned next to
nothing and could only recite to you the year Colombus supposedly
discovered America. It was later on after school on my own that I
discovered how interesting it was. I was so shocked how many years I
refused to hear any of it, and found interest in none of it.
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
>strong. I think this is the idea that I stumble over the most when I
> **
>
> I think maybe the fear isn't because people think their kids are not
> "learning" all this - but they're not being rubber-stamped through the
> system - they're not getting filtered through all the right channels.
> Everybody knows - EVERYBODY knows - that most of what is taught to kids
> in school just goes in one ear and right out the other. **
>
>
> (I see the Emperor's butt! He's not wearing any clothes at all!)
>
> Yeah, people can know it (sometimes), but the brainwashing is really
worry about whether my kid can and will learn enough *math* to get a
job where he can pay his bills. Like many would-be unschoolers, I
sometimes worry specifically about my kid learning math. And it's
hard to stop worrying about how math will be learned, because I
believe I learned a lot of math in school. (I forgot some of it, but
not all of it.)
>outside of school, when I was 5 or 6. This was my parents idea, but I
> I have math-enthusiast genes from my dad. I did math workbooks
think I did it voluntarily. I excelled in Math classes, but unlike
Reading, I don't think I knew it all before arriving at school. In
Jr. High and High School, I did math homework nearly every school
night. (OK, I think I understood it, *because* of my math aptitude.
Other students trying to do homework *without* understanding it
certainly didn't learn from the homework.) In college I took more math
classes for the first two years and then my upper division and
graduate classes used that math. If my son is only spending 1/20th
the amount of time on math that I did, will he eventually learn
"enough" math? (I made lots more money in my twenties than most of my
math-phobic friends, because I worked as an engineer.)
>what THEY
> **I think parents have to be a lot more honest with themselves about
> learned, what their own schooling taught them, how much do they honestystudied South America for a long time in Sixth Grade, I can only
> recall from their own schooling - versus how much have they learned **
>
> Right, I had the mini-epiphany recently that even though I know we
correctly identify the countries in S. A. that are shown on the RISK
board. And I learned to read before starting school, so I knew that
all those reading lessons did nothing for me. I learned a lot about
history because I read a lot outside of school and had enough mental
"hooks" that history lectures were sometimes meaningful to me, even
though they were just tiresome "blah blah blah" to the other students.
And I know that I only retained foreign language reading fluency to
the extent that I chose to continue using the language outside of
school. I know a big percentage of people forgot how to say anything
but "Bonjour" or "Hola". I think I realize that I didn't learn much
from most of my school classes, unless I learned outside of school,
but I've been thinking that Math was an exception.
>I can think like you with my eyes shut! A good trick!
> Thanks for listening while I work though this.
>
> Betsy
>
> **
> Once you see clearly that emperor has no clothes, it is really hard to
> seriously discuss his fashion sense <BEG>.**
>
> Hey -- I wrote my first paragraph w/o reading your last paragraph!
Mary
> In a message dated 2/19/05 11:17:08 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:<< **In the back of mind though, I just keep hoping Im not setting them up
to be gas station attendants. I dont seem to "get" how these kids are
going to be ok if they never learn algebra or if they never WANT to
learn algebra.>>
My dad grew up very poor in a small town. No dad around, a mom who cleaned
homes and 5 siblings. He finished school and became a gas station attendant.
Went to war and came back to the same job. He ended up owning that same
station and was not only successful in business but also in life. He took
one brother in as a partner and together, everyone knew of them in the town.
My dad had Joe Namath at the station, Jimmy Carter in his presidential limo
and Pierra Salinger called him on the phone. My cousins all worked there at
different times and I can't honestly remember anyone I knew in town who
wasn't given that opportunity. He loved his life and was dearly missed when
he passed on. The stories of that gas station are still with me today.
My dad never learned algebra and I can't say anyone ever thought of anyone
else there as just "gas station attendants."
Mary B
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/19/05 5:14:05 PM, mummy124@... writes:
<< My dad never learned algebra and I can't say anyone ever thought of anyone
else there as just "gas station attendants." >>
That's cool. When I read the first mention, I thought there aren't even gas
station attendants anymore, just convenience store clerks who now diddly about
cars.
And for ANY job anyone here could name, I think there are people who DO know
algebra working there, and lots who "were taught" algebra and don't, and so if
in the future any unschooler misses out on learning algebra, it won't be too
late and it probably won't matter anyway.
Times tables, algebra, socialization and how to write a book report: All
over-rated, and all are the kneejerk questions people ask unschoolers "What
about..."
Sandra
<< My dad never learned algebra and I can't say anyone ever thought of anyone
else there as just "gas station attendants." >>
That's cool. When I read the first mention, I thought there aren't even gas
station attendants anymore, just convenience store clerks who now diddly about
cars.
And for ANY job anyone here could name, I think there are people who DO know
algebra working there, and lots who "were taught" algebra and don't, and so if
in the future any unschooler misses out on learning algebra, it won't be too
late and it probably won't matter anyway.
Times tables, algebra, socialization and how to write a book report: All
over-rated, and all are the kneejerk questions people ask unschoolers "What
about..."
Sandra
somedayhomefree
I certainly wasnt intending to seem overbearing towards gas station
attendants. Although I knew after I wrote it that it was. I really
mean no offense as if these arent decent hard working people
themselves, but like every mother, I want all my childrens potential
included in with what makes them happy and I dont think anyone
pictures this as their son working at a gas station. Even if this the
eventual reality.
--- In [email protected], "Mary" <mummy124@b...>
wrote:
attendants. Although I knew after I wrote it that it was. I really
mean no offense as if these arent decent hard working people
themselves, but like every mother, I want all my childrens potential
included in with what makes them happy and I dont think anyone
pictures this as their son working at a gas station. Even if this the
eventual reality.
--- In [email protected], "Mary" <mummy124@b...>
wrote:
> > In a message dated 2/19/05 11:17:08 AM, ecsamhill@e... writes:them up
>
> << **In the back of mind though, I just keep hoping Im not setting
> to be gas station attendants. I dont seem to "get" how these kids arecleaned
> going to be ok if they never learn algebra or if they never WANT to
> learn algebra.>>
>
>
> My dad grew up very poor in a small town. No dad around, a mom who
> homes and 5 siblings. He finished school and became a gas stationattendant.
> Went to war and came back to the same job. He ended up owning that sametook
> station and was not only successful in business but also in life. He
> one brother in as a partner and together, everyone knew of them inthe town.
> My dad had Joe Namath at the station, Jimmy Carter in hispresidential limo
> and Pierra Salinger called him on the phone. My cousins all workedthere at
> different times and I can't honestly remember anyone I knew in town whomissed when
> wasn't given that opportunity. He loved his life and was dearly
> he passed on. The stories of that gas station are still with me today.anyone
>
> My dad never learned algebra and I can't say anyone ever thought of
> else there as just "gas station attendants."
>
> Mary B
somedayhomefree
> That's cool. When I read the first mention, I thought there aren'teven gas
> station attendants anymore, just convenience store clerks who nowdiddly about
> cars.Well I guess that was sort of the point of using it as my example, I
thought it would explain my fears without actually offending anyone.
homebody_momma
they're getting.
school last week and I've had a few fleeting moments of panic. So
this list and How Kids Fail continues to be reassuring, but I found
this especially ironic, because my sons 1st grade class is putting
on a play "the emperor's new clothes" and he was the emperor. Made
me laugh!
Jill in PA
ds7, dd5.5, ds2.5, ds3m
>hard to
> Once you see clearly that emperor has no clothes, it is really
> seriously discuss his fashion sense <BEG>.I am really into this conversation right now, as my kids just left
>
> -pam
school last week and I've had a few fleeting moments of panic. So
this list and How Kids Fail continues to be reassuring, but I found
this especially ironic, because my sons 1st grade class is putting
on a play "the emperor's new clothes" and he was the emperor. Made
me laugh!
Jill in PA
ds7, dd5.5, ds2.5, ds3m
jimpetersonl
Care to rephrase? :-)
(RIFD: the clerks are being fresh with the cars).
LOL! (Isnt' typing fun?)
~Sue
just convenience store clerks who now diddly about
(RIFD: the clerks are being fresh with the cars).
LOL! (Isnt' typing fun?)
~Sue
just convenience store clerks who now diddly about
> cars.
> Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
Ha - that IS kind of ironic, Jill!!
-pam
-pam
On Feb 19, 2005, at 6:12 PM, homebody_momma wrote:
> but I found
> this especially ironic, because my sons 1st grade class is putting
> on a play "the emperor's new clothes" and he was the emperor. Made
> me laugh!
Mary
From: "somedayhomefree" <somedayhomefree@...>
<< I certainly wasnt intending to seem overbearing towards gas station
attendants. Although I knew after I wrote it that it was. I really
mean no offense as if these arent decent hard working people
themselves, but like every mother, I want all my childrens potential
included in with what makes them happy and I dont think anyone
pictures this as their son working at a gas station. Even if this the
eventual reality.>>
I wasn't at all offended. I knew my dad. <BG> He was a famous man in town.
Well loved and happy until the day he died. I was just trying to show that
even though the kids may not head in the direction that the parents feel is
up to their potential, it's what they want and are happy with that matters
most. My Dad did what made him happy and because of that, the happy life
came with it.
Mary B
<< I certainly wasnt intending to seem overbearing towards gas station
attendants. Although I knew after I wrote it that it was. I really
mean no offense as if these arent decent hard working people
themselves, but like every mother, I want all my childrens potential
included in with what makes them happy and I dont think anyone
pictures this as their son working at a gas station. Even if this the
eventual reality.>>
I wasn't at all offended. I knew my dad. <BG> He was a famous man in town.
Well loved and happy until the day he died. I was just trying to show that
even though the kids may not head in the direction that the parents feel is
up to their potential, it's what they want and are happy with that matters
most. My Dad did what made him happy and because of that, the happy life
came with it.
Mary B
Fetteroll
on 2/19/05 8:09 PM, somedayhomefree at somedayhomefree@... wrote:
clearer. Thinking you don't want your kids stuck as gas station attendants
won't help you clearly identify your fears.
Perhaps you could clarify your fear as "Not being able to do what they
love".
So, what do they need to do what they love?
For starters, *doing* what they love :-) Doing what they love is training
for doing more of what they love.
And what else they need is confidence that they can learn whatever they need
to learn when they need to learn it.
Joyce
> I reallyI don't think anyone was offended. The response are just to help you think
> mean no offense as if these arent decent hard working people
> themselves, but like every mother, I want all my childrens potential
> included in with what makes them happy and I dont think anyone
> pictures this as their son working at a gas station.
clearer. Thinking you don't want your kids stuck as gas station attendants
won't help you clearly identify your fears.
Perhaps you could clarify your fear as "Not being able to do what they
love".
So, what do they need to do what they love?
For starters, *doing* what they love :-) Doing what they love is training
for doing more of what they love.
And what else they need is confidence that they can learn whatever they need
to learn when they need to learn it.
Joyce
Dawn Adams
> << **In the back of mind though, I just keep hoping Im not setting them upI loved being a gas station attendent. I loved the people I met, the
>
> to be gas station attendants. I dont seem to "get" how these kids are
>
> going to be ok if they never learn algebra or if they never WANT to
>
> learn algebra.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
regulars I could joke with, the cars that I got to ogle. And I love the fact
that I became familiar with math in a way I never had before.
When it got tired, I moved on but being a gas station attendent was a great
thing for me at that time and prepared me for different things in life.
Dawn (in defense of gas jockeys)
Nichole Fausey-Khosraviani
----- Original Message -----
From: Dawn Adams
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 6:56 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] gas station attendants and algebra
> << **In the back of mind though, I just keep hoping Im not setting them up
>
> to be gas station attendants. I dont seem to "get" how these kids are
>
> going to be ok if they never learn algebra or if they never WANT to
>
> learn algebra.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Knowing algebra, trig or any other thing in life is no guarantee that a person won't be gas station attendant. My husband who has a dual masters degree in business adminstration and computer science *had* to work in a gas station for three months because he couldn't get a job anywhere else at the time. He was underpaid, even for manual labor standards, and worked 12 hour days, with only one day off per week. He said he was glad for the experience and that one should never think a job is below oneself. The world may not always be as it is today. My daughter often says she wants to be a cashier or a yogurt stocker in the grocery store, or a greeter at Wal-Mart, in addition to her desire to be a singer and a spy. When she sees happy people doing their jobs, she thinks she'd like the job. She's just 7, but I think it's great that she can see herself doing all kinds of things. Sometimes she talks about creating a job because she sees work that needs to be done while we're out. If she could get a job tomorrow, I think she would.
Anyway... if children are used to learning as something that enables them to do things they want to do, of their own accord, if a child *needs* a certain subject to do a certain thing, she will learn it, which is so very different from kids who are forced to learn things all their lives for the sake of a grade. I know quite a few people who changed their majors in college because the major of their desire required specific math that they were too fearful to take. Where did that fear come from? From being forced to do it earlier in life, perhaps before they could grasp the concepts and then made to feel inferior for not getting it.
Pardon if I've rambled too much... bad head and chest cold, can't sleep much for coughing.
Nichole
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/20/05 4:08:51 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< Perhaps you could clarify your fear as "Not being able to do what they
love".
<<So, what do they need to do what they love?
<<For starters, *doing* what they love :-) Doing what they love is training
for doing more of what they love. >>
And sometimes, adults do what they love as an income-producing career, or at
least a side job. But often, adults take a job they can stand so that they
can afford what they need to have to do what they love. Some loves don't pay.
<g> Staying home with one's children is one of them, for instance. Making
quilts. Restoring cars and then driving them rather than selling them (and
even selling them is iffy on the profit end). Collecting dolls or egg beaters
or...
Sandra
<< Perhaps you could clarify your fear as "Not being able to do what they
love".
<<So, what do they need to do what they love?
<<For starters, *doing* what they love :-) Doing what they love is training
for doing more of what they love. >>
And sometimes, adults do what they love as an income-producing career, or at
least a side job. But often, adults take a job they can stand so that they
can afford what they need to have to do what they love. Some loves don't pay.
<g> Staying home with one's children is one of them, for instance. Making
quilts. Restoring cars and then driving them rather than selling them (and
even selling them is iffy on the profit end). Collecting dolls or egg beaters
or...
Sandra
Cally Brown
My 21yo worked for a while as a gas station attendant. Now he works as a
sales man in a timber yard.
But that's just what he does for money.
What he IS is a musician, a saxophonist. What he DOES is play jazz sax.
He can't make a living from his music yet - probably never will until he
leaves New Zealand (which will be heart wrenching for me).
What you do to earn money is not necessarily what makes you happy,
directly. I think it is a real and very big mistake to identify people's
Selves with how they earn money. That is why so many people give up
their music, art, acting, surfing, sport, - their passions - and end up
bitter in later years.
I tell my son, always remember that you are a musician, no matter what
you are doing to earn your money.
I tell the same to my artist son.
Cally
sales man in a timber yard.
But that's just what he does for money.
What he IS is a musician, a saxophonist. What he DOES is play jazz sax.
He can't make a living from his music yet - probably never will until he
leaves New Zealand (which will be heart wrenching for me).
What you do to earn money is not necessarily what makes you happy,
directly. I think it is a real and very big mistake to identify people's
Selves with how they earn money. That is why so many people give up
their music, art, acting, surfing, sport, - their passions - and end up
bitter in later years.
I tell my son, always remember that you are a musician, no matter what
you are doing to earn your money.
I tell the same to my artist son.
Cally
Heidi
I've become self-correcting! Reading in this thread, I thought of the
theory out there, that it's so much more difficult to learn new
things when myelin sort of solidifies the neuropaths in your brain,
and that's why boys grasp math more readily than girls,(this is the
theory I'm talking about, mind you) because boys' brains mature
later, AFTER algebra is being taught in school. I was going to ask
about this, but then something occured to me.
My brother, a boy, got straight C's through school, and passed his
basic algebra classes okay. Then graduated high school, got a job,
got married, had a kid...and decided to try some college. As an
adult. With myelin sheaths on all his little neurons. Right? He
enrolled in pre-alg. and zoomed through it. Same with the algebra,
calculus, trigonometry, and engineering math that he took. He had
never shown any math genius in school, but in his mid 20's, when he
took REALLY high math, he zipped through like a hot knife through
butter. Total comprehension. Total enjoyment. Straight A's.
And he ran out of money, and now works at Home Depot, and it's his
excellent work ethic that has moved him upwards in that corporation,
so he now is manager of a floor.
If his brain myelinated, it sure was able to break free of those
hampering sheaths, when he found something new to learn, that was
enjoyable to him.
blessings, HeidiC
theory out there, that it's so much more difficult to learn new
things when myelin sort of solidifies the neuropaths in your brain,
and that's why boys grasp math more readily than girls,(this is the
theory I'm talking about, mind you) because boys' brains mature
later, AFTER algebra is being taught in school. I was going to ask
about this, but then something occured to me.
My brother, a boy, got straight C's through school, and passed his
basic algebra classes okay. Then graduated high school, got a job,
got married, had a kid...and decided to try some college. As an
adult. With myelin sheaths on all his little neurons. Right? He
enrolled in pre-alg. and zoomed through it. Same with the algebra,
calculus, trigonometry, and engineering math that he took. He had
never shown any math genius in school, but in his mid 20's, when he
took REALLY high math, he zipped through like a hot knife through
butter. Total comprehension. Total enjoyment. Straight A's.
And he ran out of money, and now works at Home Depot, and it's his
excellent work ethic that has moved him upwards in that corporation,
so he now is manager of a floor.
If his brain myelinated, it sure was able to break free of those
hampering sheaths, when he found something new to learn, that was
enjoyable to him.
blessings, HeidiC
>they
> Perhaps you could clarify your fear as "Not being able to do what
> love".training
>
> So, what do they need to do what they love?
>
> For starters, *doing* what they love :-) Doing what they love is
> for doing more of what they love.they need
>
> And what else they need is confidence that they can learn whatever
> to learn when they need to learn it.
>
> Joyce
Pam Sorooshian
Most of our brain isn't myelinated, anyway. Just the pathways that are
used most frequently - it speeds them up and protects them from
interference. But there is PLENTY of not-yet-myelinated brain left, at
any age, to keep learning.
-pam
used most frequently - it speeds them up and protects them from
interference. But there is PLENTY of not-yet-myelinated brain left, at
any age, to keep learning.
-pam
On Feb 20, 2005, at 4:36 PM, Heidi wrote:
> If his brain myelinated, it sure was able to break free of those
> hampering sheaths, when he found something new to learn, that was
> enjoyable to him.
Heidi
well, there's THAT theory dashed to the ground, in bits and pieces. I
bet they made it up in order to get a panic going "oh no! if they
don't learn their math before their BRAINS HARDEN!!! aaaaagh!"
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
bet they made it up in order to get a panic going "oh no! if they
don't learn their math before their BRAINS HARDEN!!! aaaaagh!"
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> Most of our brain isn't myelinated, anyway. Just the pathways thatare
> used most frequently - it speeds them up and protects them fromat
> interference. But there is PLENTY of not-yet-myelinated brain left,
> any age, to keep learning.
>
> -pam
>
> On Feb 20, 2005, at 4:36 PM, Heidi wrote:
>
> > If his brain myelinated, it sure was able to break free of those
> > hampering sheaths, when he found something new to learn, that was
> > enjoyable to him.