Manipulation... ???? Hmmm....
bookwood01
I honestly think all people manipulate one way or another. Not in a
mean, nasty way. It's not like a conscious thing most people do. We
learned it as children... actually, I think we just figured it out.
And then we just grew up with it and developed it. It's not a word
to be avoided because so much can be learned about oneself from it.
How do I do this? Why? Do I know I am doing this?
There was a radio show that has a Buddhist monk on it. I can't
remember the monk's name, I'm so sorry. But he talked about how we
all use manipulation and that people have really thrown it into such
a negative light they don't see it for what it is. It is the art of
getting one's needs met according to one's personal ideals. Mostly
they are such an undercurrent and so everyday, the person is not
aware of it. His idea was that one should not fear it or get angry
over the word and give it a negative tone unless it something that
you do fear because you do it yourself. Follow me? I hope I'm being
clear with this. Pardon if it's confusing.
Basically, to get to know yourself and how you function (many times
through mistakes, embarrassing moments, or small lessons in the
mundane) we accidentally discover our forms of mild to major
manipulation and how to deal with them accordingly, if at all. It
was quite interesting and wish I had more information to give you
all about that radio show and the monk. But wouldn't it be
interesting to understand bettet?
I know I use manipulation and I'm not thrilled when I do it. It's
embarrassing and feels negative to me. I caught myself doing this
when I first became ill. I wanted help and needed help but wasn't
use to asking for it and wasn't use to telling my son I expected it
from him, so it went something like this: I wanted my son to do the
laundry and he's playing games. Instead of just asking him to do the
laundry after he's done with the level he was on, I would say
something like:" I wish I had someone who could help me with
laundry. It's so hard to do this all the time on my own when I can
barely get up and down the stairs." What was that all about? Why did
I feel I would be getting a better response from him than being
direct? Where did I learn it? Did it just develop naturally because
it's a human thing to do?
I analyzed it, apologized to my son about it and then we talked
about it. I don't do that anymore...it took realizing it, though,
and not being afraid to admit it to myself. Though it stings. A
friend of mine pointed out that all we (people as a whole) do is
manipulate. He didn't mean it in a negative tone, either. So... can
we really call it all manipulation? Isn't it interesting how hung up
we get on a word? Does it have that much power or only the power we
give it?
Okay... spent enough time on the putie for the day... you all take
care!
Peace,
Susan
mean, nasty way. It's not like a conscious thing most people do. We
learned it as children... actually, I think we just figured it out.
And then we just grew up with it and developed it. It's not a word
to be avoided because so much can be learned about oneself from it.
How do I do this? Why? Do I know I am doing this?
There was a radio show that has a Buddhist monk on it. I can't
remember the monk's name, I'm so sorry. But he talked about how we
all use manipulation and that people have really thrown it into such
a negative light they don't see it for what it is. It is the art of
getting one's needs met according to one's personal ideals. Mostly
they are such an undercurrent and so everyday, the person is not
aware of it. His idea was that one should not fear it or get angry
over the word and give it a negative tone unless it something that
you do fear because you do it yourself. Follow me? I hope I'm being
clear with this. Pardon if it's confusing.
Basically, to get to know yourself and how you function (many times
through mistakes, embarrassing moments, or small lessons in the
mundane) we accidentally discover our forms of mild to major
manipulation and how to deal with them accordingly, if at all. It
was quite interesting and wish I had more information to give you
all about that radio show and the monk. But wouldn't it be
interesting to understand bettet?
I know I use manipulation and I'm not thrilled when I do it. It's
embarrassing and feels negative to me. I caught myself doing this
when I first became ill. I wanted help and needed help but wasn't
use to asking for it and wasn't use to telling my son I expected it
from him, so it went something like this: I wanted my son to do the
laundry and he's playing games. Instead of just asking him to do the
laundry after he's done with the level he was on, I would say
something like:" I wish I had someone who could help me with
laundry. It's so hard to do this all the time on my own when I can
barely get up and down the stairs." What was that all about? Why did
I feel I would be getting a better response from him than being
direct? Where did I learn it? Did it just develop naturally because
it's a human thing to do?
I analyzed it, apologized to my son about it and then we talked
about it. I don't do that anymore...it took realizing it, though,
and not being afraid to admit it to myself. Though it stings. A
friend of mine pointed out that all we (people as a whole) do is
manipulate. He didn't mean it in a negative tone, either. So... can
we really call it all manipulation? Isn't it interesting how hung up
we get on a word? Does it have that much power or only the power we
give it?
Okay... spent enough time on the putie for the day... you all take
care!
Peace,
Susan
Pam Sorooshian
On Feb 19, 2005, at 9:52 AM, bookwood01 wrote:
dishonest - to say someone is manipulative is not going to be perceived
in anything but a negative way, no matter whether you think "everybody
does it," or not.
-pam
> I honestly think all people manipulate one way or another. Not in aIt always has the connotation of being sneaky or devious or tricky and
> mean, nasty way.
dishonest - to say someone is manipulative is not going to be perceived
in anything but a negative way, no matter whether you think "everybody
does it," or not.
-pam
Deborah Harper
On Feb 19, 2005, at 9:52 AM, bookwood01 wrote:
dishonest - to say someone is manipulative is not going to be perceived
in anything but a negative way, no matter whether you think "everybody
does it," or not.
-pam
But how sad that this is true. I know that in the context of parenting an infant most folks from my parents' generation think that a crying baby is trying to manipulate his parents. And, at least in my circle of friends, we think that is absurd and many docs and other professionals will plainly state that an infant is not capable of true manipulation. But I think when we look at what this word means, really, that babies are attempting to manipulate their parents by crying. They are attempting to manipulate their environments to get their needs met. They are crying because they need to be held, or whatever. Later they may cry not simply as an expression of sadness but because they are trying to communicate that they have a need and want someone to attend to it. If the child is hungry, this is clearly not a negative thing. But they are trying to affect others' behaviors to meet their own needs. What is this if not manipulation? Even in situations that would normally be seen in a negative light, such as a toddler or preschooler "acting out" to get the parents attention. They are trying to meet their own need for more attention from the parents and are willing to be persistent and try out all sorts of strategies to get those needs met. I see that as a great thing. So while I agree that the word manipulation is going to have a negative connotation attached to it, I feel sad about that and regret it, because I do not know of a positive connotation counterpart word. Maybe strategizing? I am not sure at what point taking efforts to meet our own needs became such an ugly thing? Are we supposed to be forever self-less?
<<<<:" I wish I had someone who could help me with
laundry. It's so hard to do this all the time on my own when I can
barely get up and down the stairs." >>>>
I also don't see this as being a problematic way to communicate that you need help. YOu are stating that it is hard for you and that you wish you had help. What is wrong with that? Now, if you were saying it with a tone of shame, that would be different, but stating it as a wish rather than a demand leaves your son to have compassion for you and then to either choose to help or not. I think you might be too hard on yourself for this. It is okay to ask for help directly, and I think it is okay to just state you are having a hard time and then leave it to others to deduce an action that might be helpful to you. Another alternative helpful action your son could have taken would be to move your landry machines upstairs :-) Maybe not realistic, but it's another strategy he could have used to help you from his own heart, which might have been inspired by your comment.
Something to think about.
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I honestly think all people manipulate one way or another. Not in aIt always has the connotation of being sneaky or devious or tricky and
> mean, nasty way.
dishonest - to say someone is manipulative is not going to be perceived
in anything but a negative way, no matter whether you think "everybody
does it," or not.
-pam
But how sad that this is true. I know that in the context of parenting an infant most folks from my parents' generation think that a crying baby is trying to manipulate his parents. And, at least in my circle of friends, we think that is absurd and many docs and other professionals will plainly state that an infant is not capable of true manipulation. But I think when we look at what this word means, really, that babies are attempting to manipulate their parents by crying. They are attempting to manipulate their environments to get their needs met. They are crying because they need to be held, or whatever. Later they may cry not simply as an expression of sadness but because they are trying to communicate that they have a need and want someone to attend to it. If the child is hungry, this is clearly not a negative thing. But they are trying to affect others' behaviors to meet their own needs. What is this if not manipulation? Even in situations that would normally be seen in a negative light, such as a toddler or preschooler "acting out" to get the parents attention. They are trying to meet their own need for more attention from the parents and are willing to be persistent and try out all sorts of strategies to get those needs met. I see that as a great thing. So while I agree that the word manipulation is going to have a negative connotation attached to it, I feel sad about that and regret it, because I do not know of a positive connotation counterpart word. Maybe strategizing? I am not sure at what point taking efforts to meet our own needs became such an ugly thing? Are we supposed to be forever self-less?
<<<<:" I wish I had someone who could help me with
laundry. It's so hard to do this all the time on my own when I can
barely get up and down the stairs." >>>>
I also don't see this as being a problematic way to communicate that you need help. YOu are stating that it is hard for you and that you wish you had help. What is wrong with that? Now, if you were saying it with a tone of shame, that would be different, but stating it as a wish rather than a demand leaves your son to have compassion for you and then to either choose to help or not. I think you might be too hard on yourself for this. It is okay to ask for help directly, and I think it is okay to just state you are having a hard time and then leave it to others to deduce an action that might be helpful to you. Another alternative helpful action your son could have taken would be to move your landry machines upstairs :-) Maybe not realistic, but it's another strategy he could have used to help you from his own heart, which might have been inspired by your comment.
Something to think about.
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/19/05 12:29:52 PM, bookwood01@... writes:
<< There was a radio show that has a Buddhist monk on it. I can't
remember the monk's name, I'm so sorry. >>
If you'd seen him on TV or video, you might remember his name by the way he
looks, or by remembering how it looked in writing at the bottom of the screen.
Kirby's really interested in the memory tricks he's learning in a college
success class he's taking. They talk about how many ways something can be
remembered, and if there are two aspects or more, even better. The world really IS
taken in through all our senses, and the more we taste, touch, smell, hear and
see, the more we know.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
This is not a good definition of manipulation: "It is the art of
getting one's needs met according to one's personal ideals."
There are better ways to live and better ways to be.
There are better ways to get one's needs met.
-=-His idea was that one should not fear it or get angry
over the word and give it a negative tone unless it something that
you do fear because you do it yourself. Follow me?-=-
Not at all.
Or I do, but I neither like where it's going nor comfortably believe a
Buddhist monk on the radio said manipulation isn't a word with a negative tone.
For one thing, English dictionaries outrank all the buddhist monks on earth when
it comes to the meanings of words in English, and manipulation has more to do
with marionette puppetry than with Buddhism.
-=-I wanted my son to do the
laundry and he's playing games. Instead of just asking him to do the
laundry after he's done with the level he was on, I would say
something like:" I wish I had someone who could help me with
laundry. It's so hard to do this all the time on my own when I can
barely get up and down the stairs."-=-
Luckily, you have a world of options, not just martyrly hinting, and not just
"turn that off now and do this because I said so." Communication can be
honest AND compassionate, and our children's needs don't have to take a back
seat to ours all the time.
-=A friend of mine pointed out that all we (people as a whole) do is
manipulate. He didn't mean it in a negative tone, either. -=-
Why didn't he say "persuade" then, or "convince"?
-= So... can we really call it all manipulation? -=-
Your friend did, and you're defending that.
You think you heard a Buddhist monk defend it on the radio, and you're
defending that.
-=-Isn't it interesting how hung up we get on a word?-=-
Only people who care about words and ideas and thoughts bother to get hung up
on words. Others say "this is only semantics." (Another way to phrase that
is, "I don't know what you're talking about because I can't tell the
difference between those two ideas, and I think I'm about to lose an argument.")
-=-Does it have that much power or only the power we give it?-=-
If I fall in the tiger pit at the zoo, it won't matter later how much power I
gave the tigers. If they're hungry, I'm gone.
With words, words become thoughts (ideally) or they represent thoughts.
Clear thoughts need clear words. Carefully considered thoughts deserve carefully
considered words.
One important word-thought for unschoolers is to separate clearly "teaching"
from "learning." http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
That has to do with how much power one gives what regarding how people learn.
I think words are important. Discussion lists exist because of them.
Sandra
<< There was a radio show that has a Buddhist monk on it. I can't
remember the monk's name, I'm so sorry. >>
If you'd seen him on TV or video, you might remember his name by the way he
looks, or by remembering how it looked in writing at the bottom of the screen.
Kirby's really interested in the memory tricks he's learning in a college
success class he's taking. They talk about how many ways something can be
remembered, and if there are two aspects or more, even better. The world really IS
taken in through all our senses, and the more we taste, touch, smell, hear and
see, the more we know.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
This is not a good definition of manipulation: "It is the art of
getting one's needs met according to one's personal ideals."
There are better ways to live and better ways to be.
There are better ways to get one's needs met.
-=-His idea was that one should not fear it or get angry
over the word and give it a negative tone unless it something that
you do fear because you do it yourself. Follow me?-=-
Not at all.
Or I do, but I neither like where it's going nor comfortably believe a
Buddhist monk on the radio said manipulation isn't a word with a negative tone.
For one thing, English dictionaries outrank all the buddhist monks on earth when
it comes to the meanings of words in English, and manipulation has more to do
with marionette puppetry than with Buddhism.
-=-I wanted my son to do the
laundry and he's playing games. Instead of just asking him to do the
laundry after he's done with the level he was on, I would say
something like:" I wish I had someone who could help me with
laundry. It's so hard to do this all the time on my own when I can
barely get up and down the stairs."-=-
Luckily, you have a world of options, not just martyrly hinting, and not just
"turn that off now and do this because I said so." Communication can be
honest AND compassionate, and our children's needs don't have to take a back
seat to ours all the time.
-=A friend of mine pointed out that all we (people as a whole) do is
manipulate. He didn't mean it in a negative tone, either. -=-
Why didn't he say "persuade" then, or "convince"?
-= So... can we really call it all manipulation? -=-
Your friend did, and you're defending that.
You think you heard a Buddhist monk defend it on the radio, and you're
defending that.
-=-Isn't it interesting how hung up we get on a word?-=-
Only people who care about words and ideas and thoughts bother to get hung up
on words. Others say "this is only semantics." (Another way to phrase that
is, "I don't know what you're talking about because I can't tell the
difference between those two ideas, and I think I'm about to lose an argument.")
-=-Does it have that much power or only the power we give it?-=-
If I fall in the tiger pit at the zoo, it won't matter later how much power I
gave the tigers. If they're hungry, I'm gone.
With words, words become thoughts (ideally) or they represent thoughts.
Clear thoughts need clear words. Carefully considered thoughts deserve carefully
considered words.
One important word-thought for unschoolers is to separate clearly "teaching"
from "learning." http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
That has to do with how much power one gives what regarding how people learn.
I think words are important. Discussion lists exist because of them.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/19/05 1:38:09 PM, debbliz@... writes:
<< But how sad that this is true. I know that in the context of parenting an
infant most folks from my parents' generation think that a crying baby is
trying to manipulate his parents. >>
But the baby IS trying to persuade and communicate. By saying "manipulate"
they indicate that they think the baby should NOT be trying to communicate, but
should just give up and lie there quietly. Eventually a lot of babies do.
It's not sad that "manipulate" has a negative connotation. It can't be
helped. English has other words for persuasion that aren't negative.
-=-If the child is hungry, this is clearly not a negative thing. But they
are trying to affect others' behaviors to meet their own needs. What is this if
not manipulation? -=-
Communication.
Persuasion.
Appeal.
Signal.
Influence.
Sandra
<< But how sad that this is true. I know that in the context of parenting an
infant most folks from my parents' generation think that a crying baby is
trying to manipulate his parents. >>
But the baby IS trying to persuade and communicate. By saying "manipulate"
they indicate that they think the baby should NOT be trying to communicate, but
should just give up and lie there quietly. Eventually a lot of babies do.
It's not sad that "manipulate" has a negative connotation. It can't be
helped. English has other words for persuasion that aren't negative.
-=-If the child is hungry, this is clearly not a negative thing. But they
are trying to affect others' behaviors to meet their own needs. What is this if
not manipulation? -=-
Communication.
Persuasion.
Appeal.
Signal.
Influence.
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
On Feb 19, 2005, at 12:16 PM, Deborah Harper wrote:
can communicate our difference in thinking about the following:
babies are not deviously trying to trick you into doing something -
they're not manipulating you - they're honestly asking for you to meet
their needs in the best way they know how.
We can say, "The babies are not being manipulative. They are honestly
asking for their needs to be met." Since we all understand that
"manipulative" implies some level of trickery, we all know what we mean
when we say, "Babies are not being manipulative." Good.
-pam
> It always has the connotation of being sneaky or devious or tricky andHow good that we have a word with that subtlety of meaning so that we
> dishonest - to say someone is manipulative is not going to be perceived
> in anything but a negative way, no matter whether you think "everybody
> does it," or not.
>
> -pam
>
> But how sad that this is true.
can communicate our difference in thinking about the following:
> I know that in the context of parenting an infant most folks from mySo that's good - the meaning of the word helped you understand that the
> parents' generation think that a crying baby is trying to manipulate
> his parents. And, at least in my circle of friends, we think that is
> absurd and many docs and other professionals will plainly state that
> an infant is not capable of true manipulation.
babies are not deviously trying to trick you into doing something -
they're not manipulating you - they're honestly asking for you to meet
their needs in the best way they know how.
We can say, "The babies are not being manipulative. They are honestly
asking for their needs to be met." Since we all understand that
"manipulative" implies some level of trickery, we all know what we mean
when we say, "Babies are not being manipulative." Good.
-pam
laurie c
> The world really ISThis was how my question about SID came to be!
>taken in through all our senses, and the more we taste, touch, smell, hear
>and
>see, the more we know.
>
Thankyou to those thoughtful people who gave me great feed back off list
about Sensory Intergration! I will continue to explore some resources as
well I will continue to except all imput about SID if anybody else would
like to share their experiance with me.
Truly, it is extremely helpful to know that there are other families that
have gone through what I am now going through. As well, it is nice to have
those same people willing to open up their lives to a stranger.
My heart is filled every moment of every day that I spend with my son or
think about him or share stories about him. So when I can share a bit about
him and benefit from the imput I get back, it is a win/win situation (well
for me at least, hope that's not too selfish).
So that leads me to my next question...
..If the world is taken in through all our senses, how does a parent offer
the world to a child who is overly stimulated (I hope that is the correct
word) through some senses and gets very little from the others?
I swear sometimes I make my life more difficult by disecting the silliest of
things to a state that is unrecognisable to the rest of the world. But if
you get me, then good. I obviously need alot of HEELLLPPPP!
Elizabeth Hill
** Isn't it interesting how hung up we get on a word? **
The word "manipulative" definitely has a negative connotation when
applied to how people treat people. There is an important distinction:
we all manipulate objects, but it is considered sneaky and nearly
dishonest to manipulate people.
My mom labled me as "manipulative "as a young teen when I was trying to
persuade her to drive me somewhere on a busy weekend. I was surprised
and hurt, because I was just trying to meet my needs (or if not needs,
wishes). I wasn't deliberately trying to make her feel guilty. I was
trying to get past the logistical problems that she told me were the
reason that she wasn't going to do it. (I remember asking whether one
activity could be moved from Sat to Sun, and whether my brother could
take BART to get either to or from the activity that she was taking him
to. The rest of it is gone from my memory, but the word "manipulative"
is burned in, because I was so surprised at the put down and I didn't
think it was fair.) I think she just wanted to say "no" to me and
wanted my only response to be "okay". I didn't think I could get where
I wanted (at least 30 miles away) without going through her, but she
shamed me about trying to "use her" to get what I wanted. But what was
I supposed to do ? Be completely independent when I was still
dependent? Not want anything that wasn't really, really convenient? Is
that feasible?
Like babies, kids too young to transport themselves and to earn money to
pay for their own activities need and/or want help from their parents.
I'd be interested in discussing what's reasonable and unreasonable in
how to ask and how to deal with an initial response of "no". What's
a legitimate way to ask and what's skunky? Obviously I know that
arguments that resemble the old line "if you LOVED me, you'd have sex
with me" ARE manipulative. (And really strange examples when I started
off talking about my mom.) Are there some principles of honest
communication that we can elaborate here?
I think if I heard a "justification" or "manipulative argument" from my
spouse or my kid, I would point out the flaws in the argument, not the
flaws in the person.
Betsy
The word "manipulative" definitely has a negative connotation when
applied to how people treat people. There is an important distinction:
we all manipulate objects, but it is considered sneaky and nearly
dishonest to manipulate people.
My mom labled me as "manipulative "as a young teen when I was trying to
persuade her to drive me somewhere on a busy weekend. I was surprised
and hurt, because I was just trying to meet my needs (or if not needs,
wishes). I wasn't deliberately trying to make her feel guilty. I was
trying to get past the logistical problems that she told me were the
reason that she wasn't going to do it. (I remember asking whether one
activity could be moved from Sat to Sun, and whether my brother could
take BART to get either to or from the activity that she was taking him
to. The rest of it is gone from my memory, but the word "manipulative"
is burned in, because I was so surprised at the put down and I didn't
think it was fair.) I think she just wanted to say "no" to me and
wanted my only response to be "okay". I didn't think I could get where
I wanted (at least 30 miles away) without going through her, but she
shamed me about trying to "use her" to get what I wanted. But what was
I supposed to do ? Be completely independent when I was still
dependent? Not want anything that wasn't really, really convenient? Is
that feasible?
Like babies, kids too young to transport themselves and to earn money to
pay for their own activities need and/or want help from their parents.
I'd be interested in discussing what's reasonable and unreasonable in
how to ask and how to deal with an initial response of "no". What's
a legitimate way to ask and what's skunky? Obviously I know that
arguments that resemble the old line "if you LOVED me, you'd have sex
with me" ARE manipulative. (And really strange examples when I started
off talking about my mom.) Are there some principles of honest
communication that we can elaborate here?
I think if I heard a "justification" or "manipulative argument" from my
spouse or my kid, I would point out the flaws in the argument, not the
flaws in the person.
Betsy
bookwood01
Yup, I believe you're right. It does have a highly negative tone.
What would be the word one would use instead of manipulation? I
mean, honestly, I don't know which word to use. When the Buddhist
monk used the word manipulation and spoke about it, it did not give
it a negative sound at all. It honestly didn't. It had a very
innocent ring to it. It's so hard to explain it. Has anyone read
anything on Buddhism and the way they view emotions and human
actions? Do you know what I am trying to hint at here? Cuz I'm
having a heck of a hard time putting it into words. Maybe someone
else might know what I am very poorly trying to get at.
Thanks,
Susan
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
What would be the word one would use instead of manipulation? I
mean, honestly, I don't know which word to use. When the Buddhist
monk used the word manipulation and spoke about it, it did not give
it a negative sound at all. It honestly didn't. It had a very
innocent ring to it. It's so hard to explain it. Has anyone read
anything on Buddhism and the way they view emotions and human
actions? Do you know what I am trying to hint at here? Cuz I'm
having a heck of a hard time putting it into words. Maybe someone
else might know what I am very poorly trying to get at.
Thanks,
Susan
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
>in a
> On Feb 19, 2005, at 9:52 AM, bookwood01 wrote:
>
> > I honestly think all people manipulate one way or another. Not
> > mean, nasty way.and
>
> It always has the connotation of being sneaky or devious or tricky
> dishonest - to say someone is manipulative is not going to beperceived
> in anything but a negative way, no matter whether youthink "everybody
> does it," or not.
>
> -pam
[email protected]
-=-If the world is taken in through all our senses, how does a parent offer
the world to a child who is overly stimulated (I hope that is the correct
word) through some senses and gets very little from the others?
-=-
By finding him a quiet or soft place or whatever, but not making the WHOLE house that one way. Let him experience things as he wants to, when he wants to, in his own way.
I think that same thing goes for all learners, though, no matter how they perceive the world. Neither MAKE them do something nor prevent access.
Sandra
the world to a child who is overly stimulated (I hope that is the correct
word) through some senses and gets very little from the others?
-=-
By finding him a quiet or soft place or whatever, but not making the WHOLE house that one way. Let him experience things as he wants to, when he wants to, in his own way.
I think that same thing goes for all learners, though, no matter how they perceive the world. Neither MAKE them do something nor prevent access.
Sandra
Nicole Willoughby
If the world is taken in through all our senses, how does a parent offer
the world to a child who is overly stimulated (I hope that is the correct
word) through some senses and gets very little from the others?
I swear sometimes I make my life more difficult by disecting the silliest of
things to a state that is unrecognisable to the rest of the world. But if
you get me, then good. I obviously need alot of HEELLLPPPP!
I just started the list and Im sorry i didnt see the original post on SID. I have an aspie,possible add 5 year old and a nonverbal autistic 3 year old. I use several different sensory therapies with both of them.
If you want to give examples/expand more on your question of how does a parent offter the world to a child who is overstimulated through some senses and barely gets anything through others I would be more than happy to share therapies I use for different situations and others that may work for your child. How old is your child btw?
Nicole
laurie c <pmocl@...> wrote:
Thankyou to those thoughtful people who gave me great feed back off list
about Sensory Intergration! I will continue to explore some resources as
well I will continue to except all imput about SID if anybody else would
like to share their experiance with me.
Truly, it is extremely helpful to know that there are other families that
have gone through what I am now going through. As well, it is nice to have
those same people willing to open up their lives to a stranger.
My heart is filled every moment of every day that I spend with my son or
think about him or share stories about him. So when I can share a bit about
him and benefit from the imput I get back, it is a win/win situation (well
for me at least, hope that's not too selfish).
So that leads me to my next question...
..If the world is taken in through all our senses, how does a parent offer
the world to a child who is overly stimulated (I hope that is the correct
word) through some senses and gets very little from the others?
I swear sometimes I make my life more difficult by disecting the silliest of
things to a state that is unrecognisable to the rest of the world. But if
you get me, then good. I obviously need alot of HEELLLPPPP!
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the world to a child who is overly stimulated (I hope that is the correct
word) through some senses and gets very little from the others?
I swear sometimes I make my life more difficult by disecting the silliest of
things to a state that is unrecognisable to the rest of the world. But if
you get me, then good. I obviously need alot of HEELLLPPPP!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Its so wonderful to see someone getting it!!! Ive seen kids running around hands over there ears and yelling . Adults saying he needs better discipline, or worse medication yet all the poor kid was trying to do was rid himself of pain. An auditory sensitive child was yelling to try to even out the input he was getting from being forced to stay in a room that was wayyy to noisy for him.
I just started the list and Im sorry i didnt see the original post on SID. I have an aspie,possible add 5 year old and a nonverbal autistic 3 year old. I use several different sensory therapies with both of them.
If you want to give examples/expand more on your question of how does a parent offter the world to a child who is overstimulated through some senses and barely gets anything through others I would be more than happy to share therapies I use for different situations and others that may work for your child. How old is your child btw?
Nicole
laurie c <pmocl@...> wrote:
> The world really ISThis was how my question about SID came to be!
>taken in through all our senses, and the more we taste, touch, smell, hear
>and
>see, the more we know.
>
Thankyou to those thoughtful people who gave me great feed back off list
about Sensory Intergration! I will continue to explore some resources as
well I will continue to except all imput about SID if anybody else would
like to share their experiance with me.
Truly, it is extremely helpful to know that there are other families that
have gone through what I am now going through. As well, it is nice to have
those same people willing to open up their lives to a stranger.
My heart is filled every moment of every day that I spend with my son or
think about him or share stories about him. So when I can share a bit about
him and benefit from the imput I get back, it is a win/win situation (well
for me at least, hope that's not too selfish).
So that leads me to my next question...
..If the world is taken in through all our senses, how does a parent offer
the world to a child who is overly stimulated (I hope that is the correct
word) through some senses and gets very little from the others?
I swear sometimes I make my life more difficult by disecting the silliest of
things to a state that is unrecognisable to the rest of the world. But if
you get me, then good. I obviously need alot of HEELLLPPPP!
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
Get unlimited calls to
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Harper
Thank you, Sandra, for this list of words. Sometimes I need a vocabulary lesson <g>. I do definitely agree that the word manipulate has negative connotations to it. But I have been at a loss for a word that equals that without the negativism. "Communicate" I am not sure carries the same idea of being a strategy to meet a need, but I think all together the list does. But, does persuade have a negative feel to it too? What about influence? In any case, I am happy to have a bigger bag of words from which to pull. And yes, I absolutely agree that the thoughtful choice of words makes communication efficient and effective and shows caring about the people involved and the subject matter. It is definitely important. Though sometimes I think people attribute their own unique nuances to words. Like differing cultures do, but I think this happens even within micro or sub cultures as well. I've found that saying the words sir or maam bring smiles to faces where I am from, however, they are likely to get you slapped where my husband is from.
How is this related to unschooling? I am not sure, but it is interesting discussion anyway.
<<<Has anyone read
anything on Buddhism and the way they view emotions and human
actions? Do you know what I am trying to hint at here? Cuz I'm
having a heck of a hard time putting it into words. Maybe someone
else might know what I am very poorly trying to get at...>>>
I have not read anything on Buddhism past what I learned in a college comparative religion class. Yet I believe NVC philosophy is loosely similar. NVC believes that all actions are in attempt to meet needs, and see detriment in conversation to apply judgment to actions, outside of the context of one's own opinions. I am not sure I can express any better than you have, but I think I hear what you are saying. I agree that sometimes I have heard the word manipulation used in ways that it really didn't sound negative, and perhaps sometimes the tone and/or context in which a word is used holds as much weight and meaning for the word as the simple definition alone. I am thinking now after more thought that my words above about nuance in culture is what is at work here. In Buddhist and NVC culture, manipulation would probably be defined as strategy to meet needs, and not carry a negative tone. But I agree with Pam and Sandra and others here that in the popular culture the word has a negative meaning related to being sneaky or .... perhaps strategy to meet needs that disregards the needs of others. Meaning, the manipulator attempts to influence the behavior of another person to his own benefit, without regard for the probably negative impact on that other person. Very different meanings, attributable to differences in culture. I personally prefer to live (in my consciousness) within the NVC culture, but I do physically need to live and get along in the popular culture. I think that choosing to not hear the negative aspect of such words helps subscribers to the philosophy to live with more internal peace and to affect less violence on the world around them. I think this applies to unschooling in that I personally find it to be a nicer environment in which to grow up, hearing and respecting the needs of others without violent thoughts, as opposed to school culture which is full of judgment and criticism and shame and pressure and violence.
Susan, am I getting close at all?
Deborah
How is this related to unschooling? I am not sure, but it is interesting discussion anyway.
<<<Has anyone read
anything on Buddhism and the way they view emotions and human
actions? Do you know what I am trying to hint at here? Cuz I'm
having a heck of a hard time putting it into words. Maybe someone
else might know what I am very poorly trying to get at...>>>
I have not read anything on Buddhism past what I learned in a college comparative religion class. Yet I believe NVC philosophy is loosely similar. NVC believes that all actions are in attempt to meet needs, and see detriment in conversation to apply judgment to actions, outside of the context of one's own opinions. I am not sure I can express any better than you have, but I think I hear what you are saying. I agree that sometimes I have heard the word manipulation used in ways that it really didn't sound negative, and perhaps sometimes the tone and/or context in which a word is used holds as much weight and meaning for the word as the simple definition alone. I am thinking now after more thought that my words above about nuance in culture is what is at work here. In Buddhist and NVC culture, manipulation would probably be defined as strategy to meet needs, and not carry a negative tone. But I agree with Pam and Sandra and others here that in the popular culture the word has a negative meaning related to being sneaky or .... perhaps strategy to meet needs that disregards the needs of others. Meaning, the manipulator attempts to influence the behavior of another person to his own benefit, without regard for the probably negative impact on that other person. Very different meanings, attributable to differences in culture. I personally prefer to live (in my consciousness) within the NVC culture, but I do physically need to live and get along in the popular culture. I think that choosing to not hear the negative aspect of such words helps subscribers to the philosophy to live with more internal peace and to affect less violence on the world around them. I think this applies to unschooling in that I personally find it to be a nicer environment in which to grow up, hearing and respecting the needs of others without violent thoughts, as opposed to school culture which is full of judgment and criticism and shame and pressure and violence.
Susan, am I getting close at all?
Deborah
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Manipulation... ???? Hmmm....
In a message dated 2/19/05 1:38:09 PM, debbliz@... writes:
<< But how sad that this is true. I know that in the context of parenting an
infant most folks from my parents' generation think that a crying baby is
trying to manipulate his parents. >>
But the baby IS trying to persuade and communicate. By saying "manipulate"
they indicate that they think the baby should NOT be trying to communicate, but
should just give up and lie there quietly. Eventually a lot of babies do.
It's not sad that "manipulate" has a negative connotation. It can't be
helped. English has other words for persuasion that aren't negative.
-=-If the child is hungry, this is clearly not a negative thing. But they
are trying to affect others' behaviors to meet their own needs. What is this if
not manipulation? -=-
Communication.
Persuasion.
Appeal.
Signal.
Influence.
Sandra
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Deb Lewis
***"Communicate" I am not sure carries the same idea of being a strategy
to meet a need,***
Did you ever have to ask a store employee to reach an item for you? <g>
Did you ever get lost and have to ask for directions?
Did you ever ask your partner to stop at the store on the way home from
work?
Communication is the most direct way to get our needs met when we're not
able to do it all ourselves.
"Honey, my back aches, can you give me a rub?"
I don't think babies are trying to persuade or influence us when they
cry. I think they are asking us, as directly as they are able, to help
them. It's as pure as it gets.
Deb L
to meet a need,***
Did you ever have to ask a store employee to reach an item for you? <g>
Did you ever get lost and have to ask for directions?
Did you ever ask your partner to stop at the store on the way home from
work?
Communication is the most direct way to get our needs met when we're not
able to do it all ourselves.
"Honey, my back aches, can you give me a rub?"
I don't think babies are trying to persuade or influence us when they
cry. I think they are asking us, as directly as they are able, to help
them. It's as pure as it gets.
Deb L
kayb85
I've had situations lately where I've wondered if I'm being too
manipulative.
The other day, I scheduled a playdate for my 5 year old Luke. He
knew about it and was excited about it the day before. We were
supposed to meet 2 of his friends at a children's museum but it
didn't work out for one of them and so the other one invited us to
their house to play. He was asleep when I worked all this out, the
morning of the playdate, but I figured a playdate at a house with
different toys would be just as much fun as a children's museum.
He woke up and said he wasn't going. What was I going to do? I
really didn't feel comfortable calling back and saying, "Ooops, so
sorry, he doesn't want to come anymore". Maybe I shouldn't have made
a change in plans without his consent, but honestly, he really wanted
to go on this playdate the day before, and I think he would have
said "I'm not going" even if the plans hadn't changed at all. He
does the "I'm not going" thing quite often before we go somewhere.
So I bribed him with stopping for a hot dog and hot chocolate at a
Turkey Hill on the way (He loves hot dogs). He said he'd go to the
turkey hill but not to the house. I said okay, knowing at least it
would get him in the car. If I had said, "No, we're going to do
both", I couldn't have gotten him in the car. But after we got the
hot dog I said, "Let's just go to their house and if you don't like
it you don't have to stay long". We got there and he refused to go
in. I carried him in thinking that if he saw the toys and his friend
he'd be okay. He ran out of the house and back into the car. So I
told him I wanted to go in and that he could wait in the car. The
house was out in the country, I parked right by the front door, and I
sat by a window in the house where I could see the car. He sat out
in the car for I'd say 20 minutes before he came in. I went out to
check on him once, the little girl went out to ask him if he wanted
to play, the other mom went out to try to tempt him with toys. He
eventually came in and warmed up to everything and had a wonderful
time. He didn't want to leave when it was time to go.
So I manipulated him I guess, by tempting him with a hot dog and
going in the house and letting him in the car, knowing that he'd want
to come and join me eventually.
I manipulate my kids almost every time they give me the "I'm not
going" "Why can't we just stay home" stuff before something we
planned to do. (And I don't over-schedule stuff at all, so that's
not the issue--they just like to stay home).
Another time when I think I manipulate a bit is at bedtime. They
don't want to go to bed, but I do. Yet they want me to tuck them
in, including reading to each of them individually, singing to them,
etc. If I don't start tucking in before midnight, I'm up until 3 am
or later, and I need to go to bed earlier than that sometimes. If
I'm not going to be grumpy while I'm helping them get to sleep, it's
got to be earlier than that. Lately they've been whining "Oh, not
yet!" when I say I'm ready to start tucking someone in. So I
say, "Okay, but I'm going to bed. You can stay up if you want, but
then you won't be tucked in". And they do NOT want to go to bed
without being tucked in so they grudgingly allow me to do it. I'm
getting sick of hearing, "It's not fair, I'm not tired yet, why do I
have to get tucked in before him, etc." every night. Is it
manipulative for me to say, "If you want to be tucked in, it has to
be now, because I'm not going to stay up until 3 am tonight. You can
stay up on your own if you want", when I know very well that they
don't want to stay up on their own and they will go to bed when I say
because they want to be tucked in. If I don't manipulate them into
going to bed earlier than they want, they manipulate me into staying
up later than I want. Both happens, and it's manipulation either
way.
And the other night, my 5 year old wanted to take a shower at 1 am
and I was going to bed. I'm not comfortable with him being in the
tub while I'm asleep. I *can't* sleep with him in the shower. I
actually can't sleep when he's awake at all. My other two (older)
kids I'm okay with them being up later than me, but I just can't
sleep when my 5 year old's up. I outright refused to turn the shower
water on for him and told him that he can't take a shower when I'm in
bed. I told him I'd help him get the shower water on in the morning,
but not now. So that's an arbitrary rule I have going for him I
guess. His 11 year old sister could get up and take a shower while
I'm asleep and I'm cool with that. Luke gets an arbitrary, "No, you
cannot take a shower if there aren't any adults awake in the house".
I don't like having that rule, but I can't get around the "What if he
falls asleep in the tub" thoughts going through my head.
I genuinely am getting tired of them complaining about going to bed
every night. It feels like I'm making them go to bed, even though
they know they have the freedom to stay up longer than me if they
want to. I really would like things to go more smoothly, and I would
really like them to not look back on their childhoods with memories
of me manipulating them into going to bed earlier than they wanted
to.
Sheila
Sheila
manipulative.
The other day, I scheduled a playdate for my 5 year old Luke. He
knew about it and was excited about it the day before. We were
supposed to meet 2 of his friends at a children's museum but it
didn't work out for one of them and so the other one invited us to
their house to play. He was asleep when I worked all this out, the
morning of the playdate, but I figured a playdate at a house with
different toys would be just as much fun as a children's museum.
He woke up and said he wasn't going. What was I going to do? I
really didn't feel comfortable calling back and saying, "Ooops, so
sorry, he doesn't want to come anymore". Maybe I shouldn't have made
a change in plans without his consent, but honestly, he really wanted
to go on this playdate the day before, and I think he would have
said "I'm not going" even if the plans hadn't changed at all. He
does the "I'm not going" thing quite often before we go somewhere.
So I bribed him with stopping for a hot dog and hot chocolate at a
Turkey Hill on the way (He loves hot dogs). He said he'd go to the
turkey hill but not to the house. I said okay, knowing at least it
would get him in the car. If I had said, "No, we're going to do
both", I couldn't have gotten him in the car. But after we got the
hot dog I said, "Let's just go to their house and if you don't like
it you don't have to stay long". We got there and he refused to go
in. I carried him in thinking that if he saw the toys and his friend
he'd be okay. He ran out of the house and back into the car. So I
told him I wanted to go in and that he could wait in the car. The
house was out in the country, I parked right by the front door, and I
sat by a window in the house where I could see the car. He sat out
in the car for I'd say 20 minutes before he came in. I went out to
check on him once, the little girl went out to ask him if he wanted
to play, the other mom went out to try to tempt him with toys. He
eventually came in and warmed up to everything and had a wonderful
time. He didn't want to leave when it was time to go.
So I manipulated him I guess, by tempting him with a hot dog and
going in the house and letting him in the car, knowing that he'd want
to come and join me eventually.
I manipulate my kids almost every time they give me the "I'm not
going" "Why can't we just stay home" stuff before something we
planned to do. (And I don't over-schedule stuff at all, so that's
not the issue--they just like to stay home).
Another time when I think I manipulate a bit is at bedtime. They
don't want to go to bed, but I do. Yet they want me to tuck them
in, including reading to each of them individually, singing to them,
etc. If I don't start tucking in before midnight, I'm up until 3 am
or later, and I need to go to bed earlier than that sometimes. If
I'm not going to be grumpy while I'm helping them get to sleep, it's
got to be earlier than that. Lately they've been whining "Oh, not
yet!" when I say I'm ready to start tucking someone in. So I
say, "Okay, but I'm going to bed. You can stay up if you want, but
then you won't be tucked in". And they do NOT want to go to bed
without being tucked in so they grudgingly allow me to do it. I'm
getting sick of hearing, "It's not fair, I'm not tired yet, why do I
have to get tucked in before him, etc." every night. Is it
manipulative for me to say, "If you want to be tucked in, it has to
be now, because I'm not going to stay up until 3 am tonight. You can
stay up on your own if you want", when I know very well that they
don't want to stay up on their own and they will go to bed when I say
because they want to be tucked in. If I don't manipulate them into
going to bed earlier than they want, they manipulate me into staying
up later than I want. Both happens, and it's manipulation either
way.
And the other night, my 5 year old wanted to take a shower at 1 am
and I was going to bed. I'm not comfortable with him being in the
tub while I'm asleep. I *can't* sleep with him in the shower. I
actually can't sleep when he's awake at all. My other two (older)
kids I'm okay with them being up later than me, but I just can't
sleep when my 5 year old's up. I outright refused to turn the shower
water on for him and told him that he can't take a shower when I'm in
bed. I told him I'd help him get the shower water on in the morning,
but not now. So that's an arbitrary rule I have going for him I
guess. His 11 year old sister could get up and take a shower while
I'm asleep and I'm cool with that. Luke gets an arbitrary, "No, you
cannot take a shower if there aren't any adults awake in the house".
I don't like having that rule, but I can't get around the "What if he
falls asleep in the tub" thoughts going through my head.
I genuinely am getting tired of them complaining about going to bed
every night. It feels like I'm making them go to bed, even though
they know they have the freedom to stay up longer than me if they
want to. I really would like things to go more smoothly, and I would
really like them to not look back on their childhoods with memories
of me manipulating them into going to bed earlier than they wanted
to.
Sheila
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/19/2005 11:46:00 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
sheran@... writes:
So I manipulated him I guess, by tempting him with a hot dog and
going in the house and letting him in the car, knowing that he'd want
to come and join me eventually.
================
I'd see it as helping him keep an appointment, in the situation you
described. Yeah, plans changed and he didn't know, but waking him up to ask wouldn't
have helped.
-=-I manipulate my kids almost every time they give me the "I'm not
going" "Why can't we just stay home" stuff before something we
planned to do. =-
My husband and I do that to each other. If we had cancelled every time one
of us sighed or expressed hesitation about going to a party or a meeting,
we'd've missed some good stuff. Sometimes I don't want to do a singing thing
(practice, or a party) and sometimes he doesn't, but unless BOTH of us are
foot-dragging, we go ahead and do it, and almost always have a great time. We
know this after years of togetherness. And with group singing, it just doesn't
happen without lots of people there, and we know if we want people to keep
getting together we're going to have to be there a lot.
-=-
Another time when I think I manipulate a bit is at bedtime. They
don't want to go to bed, but I do. -=-
If you say "I'm tired and the only way we can do these things is to do them
soon," how is that manipulation?
-=-Is it
manipulative for me to say, "If you want to be tucked in, it has to
be now, because I'm not going to stay up until 3 am tonight. You can
stay up on your own if you want"=-
Not at all.
-=- If I don't manipulate them into
going to bed earlier than they want, they manipulate me into staying
up later than I want. Both happens, and it's manipulation either
way.
=-
I don't think so. If you all see what's happening and aren't tricked or
blindsided, how is it manipulation?
-=- I told him I'd help him get the shower water on in the morning,
but not now. So that's an arbitrary rule I have going for him I
guess. =-
Sounds like a safety rule and that's not arbitrary.
-=- I really would like things to go more smoothly, and I would
really like them to not look back on their childhoods with memories
of me manipulating them into going to bed earlier than they wanted
to.
=-
IF they want to stay up, and if they can do it quietly, they can.
IF they want to go to bed with you or get tucked in, those have to happen
earlier.
If your youngest wants to take a bath he needs to do it when you're
available to check on him and help him get out and all.
None of that is manipulation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheran@... writes:
So I manipulated him I guess, by tempting him with a hot dog and
going in the house and letting him in the car, knowing that he'd want
to come and join me eventually.
================
I'd see it as helping him keep an appointment, in the situation you
described. Yeah, plans changed and he didn't know, but waking him up to ask wouldn't
have helped.
-=-I manipulate my kids almost every time they give me the "I'm not
going" "Why can't we just stay home" stuff before something we
planned to do. =-
My husband and I do that to each other. If we had cancelled every time one
of us sighed or expressed hesitation about going to a party or a meeting,
we'd've missed some good stuff. Sometimes I don't want to do a singing thing
(practice, or a party) and sometimes he doesn't, but unless BOTH of us are
foot-dragging, we go ahead and do it, and almost always have a great time. We
know this after years of togetherness. And with group singing, it just doesn't
happen without lots of people there, and we know if we want people to keep
getting together we're going to have to be there a lot.
-=-
Another time when I think I manipulate a bit is at bedtime. They
don't want to go to bed, but I do. -=-
If you say "I'm tired and the only way we can do these things is to do them
soon," how is that manipulation?
-=-Is it
manipulative for me to say, "If you want to be tucked in, it has to
be now, because I'm not going to stay up until 3 am tonight. You can
stay up on your own if you want"=-
Not at all.
-=- If I don't manipulate them into
going to bed earlier than they want, they manipulate me into staying
up later than I want. Both happens, and it's manipulation either
way.
=-
I don't think so. If you all see what's happening and aren't tricked or
blindsided, how is it manipulation?
-=- I told him I'd help him get the shower water on in the morning,
but not now. So that's an arbitrary rule I have going for him I
guess. =-
Sounds like a safety rule and that's not arbitrary.
-=- I really would like things to go more smoothly, and I would
really like them to not look back on their childhoods with memories
of me manipulating them into going to bed earlier than they wanted
to.
=-
IF they want to stay up, and if they can do it quietly, they can.
IF they want to go to bed with you or get tucked in, those have to happen
earlier.
If your youngest wants to take a bath he needs to do it when you're
available to check on him and help him get out and all.
None of that is manipulation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***So that's an arbitrary rule I have going for him I
guess. His 11 year old sister could get up and take a shower while
I'm asleep and I'm cool with that. Luke gets an arbitrary, "No, you
cannot take a shower if there aren't any adults awake in the house".***
I don't think it's arbitrary Sheila, I think you're concerned about his
ability to take care of himself.
How long is he usually in the shower? Could one of your older kids
shower with him? Would one of them look out for him if he showered while
you were in bed? Could you go to bed with a walkie talkie and he could
have the other and he could buzz you when he's out?
Someday you'll know he'll be ok in the shower on his own.
***And they do NOT want to go to bed
without being tucked in so they grudgingly allow me to do it. ***
You're ok with them being up later than you but *they* want to be tucked
in, is that right? Could you create some other ritual instead of the
tucking in? Could you wind them up in a blanket and kiss them all over
their faces and they can all to snore like they're asleep so you can go
to bed, but then they can scramble out and play a little longer?
Maybe the tucking in isn't as important as a little time with you at the
end of the day and that time could be changed from *you* tucking them in
to them tucking *you* in?
***So I manipulated him I guess, by tempting him with a hot dog and
going in the house and letting him in the car, knowing that he'd want
to come and join me eventually. ***
Lots of moms would have dumped him there never mind his feelings.
All along he had choices whether to participate or not. He finally made
the choice to play and he had fun. If he'd stayed in the car you'd have
taken him home, right?
Maybe it'd be easier on him to have kids come to your house?
I don't think what you described is manipulation. I think that's how
people live together.
Deb L
guess. His 11 year old sister could get up and take a shower while
I'm asleep and I'm cool with that. Luke gets an arbitrary, "No, you
cannot take a shower if there aren't any adults awake in the house".***
I don't think it's arbitrary Sheila, I think you're concerned about his
ability to take care of himself.
How long is he usually in the shower? Could one of your older kids
shower with him? Would one of them look out for him if he showered while
you were in bed? Could you go to bed with a walkie talkie and he could
have the other and he could buzz you when he's out?
Someday you'll know he'll be ok in the shower on his own.
***And they do NOT want to go to bed
without being tucked in so they grudgingly allow me to do it. ***
You're ok with them being up later than you but *they* want to be tucked
in, is that right? Could you create some other ritual instead of the
tucking in? Could you wind them up in a blanket and kiss them all over
their faces and they can all to snore like they're asleep so you can go
to bed, but then they can scramble out and play a little longer?
Maybe the tucking in isn't as important as a little time with you at the
end of the day and that time could be changed from *you* tucking them in
to them tucking *you* in?
***So I manipulated him I guess, by tempting him with a hot dog and
going in the house and letting him in the car, knowing that he'd want
to come and join me eventually. ***
Lots of moms would have dumped him there never mind his feelings.
All along he had choices whether to participate or not. He finally made
the choice to play and he had fun. If he'd stayed in the car you'd have
taken him home, right?
Maybe it'd be easier on him to have kids come to your house?
I don't think what you described is manipulation. I think that's how
people live together.
Deb L
Fetteroll
on 2/19/05 10:35 PM, Deborah Harper at debbliz@... wrote:
ourselves to help ourselves when talking to others. But it doesn't help us
communicate with others any better. We can choose to not hear negatives in
words others use towards us, but we can't prevent others from hearing the
negatives in words we use on them. So we need to be aware of the negative
connotations.
But I think it's a huge leap to expect someone trying to get to unschooling
to also adopt the philosophy of not hearing negativity in words! It's lots
easier to find words that are positive and more descriptive.
Joyce
> I think that choosing to not hear the negative aspect of such words helpsLetting go of hearing negative connotations can be something we can do for
> subscribers to the philosophy to live with more internal peace and to affect
> less violence on the world around them.
ourselves to help ourselves when talking to others. But it doesn't help us
communicate with others any better. We can choose to not hear negatives in
words others use towards us, but we can't prevent others from hearing the
negatives in words we use on them. So we need to be aware of the negative
connotations.
But I think it's a huge leap to expect someone trying to get to unschooling
to also adopt the philosophy of not hearing negativity in words! It's lots
easier to find words that are positive and more descriptive.
Joyce
Emile Snyder
Could people who have opinions on the play date hot dog bribe story
(excerpted below) please elaborate a bit on why they think it was or
wasn't manipulative? If I'm counting right I saw two "non-manipulative
method of persuasion" and no "manipulation" votes, and I was a bit
surprised. Was it primarily the happy ending, or do people just not
find the series of events manipulative?
I'm not trying to say that I necessarily think the poster was doing the
wrong thing here, but lying to get the son in the car, and then lying
about whether they have to come in when they get there (ie. physically
putting him in the house on arrival) seem hard to argue as not "using
deceit or trickery in order to bring about desired actions" which seems
to have been the working definition of manipulation in the discussion so
far.
thanks,
-emile
(excerpted below) please elaborate a bit on why they think it was or
wasn't manipulative? If I'm counting right I saw two "non-manipulative
method of persuasion" and no "manipulation" votes, and I was a bit
surprised. Was it primarily the happy ending, or do people just not
find the series of events manipulative?
I'm not trying to say that I necessarily think the poster was doing the
wrong thing here, but lying to get the son in the car, and then lying
about whether they have to come in when they get there (ie. physically
putting him in the house on arrival) seem hard to argue as not "using
deceit or trickery in order to bring about desired actions" which seems
to have been the working definition of manipulation in the discussion so
far.
thanks,
-emile
On Sat, 2005-02-19 at 22:43, kayb85 wrote:
> The other day, I scheduled a playdate for my 5 year old Luke. He
> knew about it and was excited about it the day before. We were
> supposed to meet 2 of his friends at a children's museum but it
> didn't work out for one of them and so the other one invited us to
> their house to play. He was asleep when I worked all this out, the
> morning of the playdate, but I figured a playdate at a house with
> different toys would be just as much fun as a children's museum.
>
> He woke up and said he wasn't going. What was I going to do? I
> really didn't feel comfortable calling back and saying, "Ooops, so
> sorry, he doesn't want to come anymore". Maybe I shouldn't have made
> a change in plans without his consent, but honestly, he really wanted
> to go on this playdate the day before, and I think he would have
> said "I'm not going" even if the plans hadn't changed at all. He
> does the "I'm not going" thing quite often before we go somewhere.
>
> So I bribed him with stopping for a hot dog and hot chocolate at a
> Turkey Hill on the way (He loves hot dogs). He said he'd go to the
> turkey hill but not to the house. I said okay, knowing at least it
> would get him in the car. If I had said, "No, we're going to do
> both", I couldn't have gotten him in the car. But after we got the
> hot dog I said, "Let's just go to their house and if you don't like
> it you don't have to stay long". We got there and he refused to go
> in. I carried him in thinking that if he saw the toys and his friend
> he'd be okay. He ran out of the house and back into the car. So I
> told him I wanted to go in and that he could wait in the car. The
> house was out in the country, I parked right by the front door, and I
> sat by a window in the house where I could see the car. He sat out
> in the car for I'd say 20 minutes before he came in. I went out to
> check on him once, the little girl went out to ask him if he wanted
> to play, the other mom went out to try to tempt him with toys. He
> eventually came in and warmed up to everything and had a wonderful
> time. He didn't want to leave when it was time to go.
xochitl24
THe boy was anticipating a museum trip.
Museum trip cancelled and other arrangements made without his
consultation.
Boy didn't want to go.
Mom was out of her comfort zone to call other mom to cancel.
The rest of the story sounds sad to me. I think the boy had no
choice but to warm up to the playdate, otherwise he would have sat
outside the whole time. Kind of sad for 5 year old.
Jen
Museum trip cancelled and other arrangements made without his
consultation.
Boy didn't want to go.
Mom was out of her comfort zone to call other mom to cancel.
The rest of the story sounds sad to me. I think the boy had no
choice but to warm up to the playdate, otherwise he would have sat
outside the whole time. Kind of sad for 5 year old.
Jen
Elizabeth Hill
I would say that is not manipulative to have some limits in what you do
for your kids as long as you are honest with them. ("I need to go to
bed soon. If you want me to read a story tonight, let's start it now.")
I do relate to what you said about a kid who wants to back out of doing
things at the last minute, when up to that point he'd been fairly
willing. That happens at my house. And my son is remarkably resistant
to coaxing. I'm working a bit on figuring out at the end of outings
what was enjoyable and what was just endurable. (Say we went to a
museum with friends enjoyed 20% of the museum exhibits and 95% of the
friends. I'm aiming to figure out how to make future outings and
playdates better, so that he can look forwards to them. When he's
reluctant, I'd like to know what his concerns are more clearly. But my
kid is almost 11, he can explain himself really well, if he has specific
concerns and not just free-floating anxiety.)
**but I just can't sleep when my 5 year old's up.**
I couldn't either when my son was that young. But maybe my kid was more
clingy at that age? He wouldn't stay up alone (so siblings). But I
think that advice that has been offered here about kids staying up alone
is mostly aimed at kids older than 5. (And I really can't imagine 3
year olds staying up alone.) I agree that I'm not comfortable with
young kids having lots of time awake when the parental supervision has
fallen asleep. (My ten going on eleven year old's "staying up pattern"
is just watching one TV episode and going to bed. He's not cooking,
bathing, playing in the street, or running with scissors <g> while I'm
sleeping. At least that's not the plan.) Some people may have a much
higher tolerance for risk than I do, or more adept children, or more
childproof homes. My 2 cents.
**I genuinely am getting tired of them complaining about going to bed
every night.**
I think you should examine your feelings and try to figure out why you
aren't comfortable with their feelings. (I haven't had to listen to it,
and I'm not you, so I don't know.) Do you want them to have different
feelings, different behavior, or to just get through the bedtime
resistance faster? A more pleasant bedtime would be great for
everybody. Are there other ways (than staying up forever) that you can
contribute to making it more pleasant?
Betsy
**but I can't get around the "What if he falls asleep in the tub"
thoughts going through my head.**
I don't think he'll fall asleep if he is taking a stand up shower. If
he slips you wouldn't be there much faster awake or asleep. (Unless you
normally stay in the bathroom with him.) BUT, my husband had huge
insomnia Thursday night and did fall asleep in the bathtub Friday night
right after getting home from work and 36 hours of being awake.
Fortunately he's pretty tightly wedged in there and couldn't slip down
under the water.)
for your kids as long as you are honest with them. ("I need to go to
bed soon. If you want me to read a story tonight, let's start it now.")
I do relate to what you said about a kid who wants to back out of doing
things at the last minute, when up to that point he'd been fairly
willing. That happens at my house. And my son is remarkably resistant
to coaxing. I'm working a bit on figuring out at the end of outings
what was enjoyable and what was just endurable. (Say we went to a
museum with friends enjoyed 20% of the museum exhibits and 95% of the
friends. I'm aiming to figure out how to make future outings and
playdates better, so that he can look forwards to them. When he's
reluctant, I'd like to know what his concerns are more clearly. But my
kid is almost 11, he can explain himself really well, if he has specific
concerns and not just free-floating anxiety.)
**but I just can't sleep when my 5 year old's up.**
I couldn't either when my son was that young. But maybe my kid was more
clingy at that age? He wouldn't stay up alone (so siblings). But I
think that advice that has been offered here about kids staying up alone
is mostly aimed at kids older than 5. (And I really can't imagine 3
year olds staying up alone.) I agree that I'm not comfortable with
young kids having lots of time awake when the parental supervision has
fallen asleep. (My ten going on eleven year old's "staying up pattern"
is just watching one TV episode and going to bed. He's not cooking,
bathing, playing in the street, or running with scissors <g> while I'm
sleeping. At least that's not the plan.) Some people may have a much
higher tolerance for risk than I do, or more adept children, or more
childproof homes. My 2 cents.
**I genuinely am getting tired of them complaining about going to bed
every night.**
I think you should examine your feelings and try to figure out why you
aren't comfortable with their feelings. (I haven't had to listen to it,
and I'm not you, so I don't know.) Do you want them to have different
feelings, different behavior, or to just get through the bedtime
resistance faster? A more pleasant bedtime would be great for
everybody. Are there other ways (than staying up forever) that you can
contribute to making it more pleasant?
Betsy
**but I can't get around the "What if he falls asleep in the tub"
thoughts going through my head.**
I don't think he'll fall asleep if he is taking a stand up shower. If
he slips you wouldn't be there much faster awake or asleep. (Unless you
normally stay in the bathroom with him.) BUT, my husband had huge
insomnia Thursday night and did fall asleep in the bathtub Friday night
right after getting home from work and 36 hours of being awake.
Fortunately he's pretty tightly wedged in there and couldn't slip down
under the water.)
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/20/05 10:41:41 AM, unschooling@...
writes:
<<
Could people who have opinions on the play date hot dog bribe story
(excerpted below) please elaborate a bit on why they think it was or
wasn't manipulative? If I'm counting right I saw two "non-manipulative
method of persuasion" and no "manipulation" votes, and I was a bit
surprised. Was it primarily the happy ending, or do people just not
find the series of events manipulative? >>
Manipulation would've been saying, "No, I'm just going to get gas, come on,"
and then saying, "Oh! I think I left my glasses in Susie's mom's car!" and
then pulling up and saying, "Gosh, since we're here, you want to play?"
If my husband wants me to go with him somewhere, he might try to sweeten the
deal by offering to go with me to something he usually avoids, or offering
dinner at my favorite restaurant on the way.
If Holly wants a friend to come over, she might offer to guarantee to play
the thing the friend likes best, even if it wouldn't be Holly's first choice.
It would only be manipulation if she weasled out of it after the friend got
here, I think. If she actually DOES play Barbies or house for two hours, that
was negotiation, not manipulation.
I have physically carried kids before, mostly out, rather than in. With
really young kids who arent' so far removed from being carried by their mom, it's
not so off.
Marty, even in the past few years, has a habit of panicking before he does
something. We applied for and got him accepted into the junior police academy,
which he loved and I knew he would love, and he wanted to do. The weekend
before, he started reciting the reasons he should just not go. I countered them
all. I told him he needed to go and SEE, not just decide based on his
imagination. It was one of the best weeks of his life so far, and he thought so
within an hour of getting in there. Had I let his hesitation stop the whole
thing, I wouldn't have been a very good partner. I didn't carry him, but I said,
"NO, they let you in, not everyone got in, you have an obligation to do this."
When Kirby wanted to quit karate, I was disappointed but I remembered being
18 and so I didn't press very hard. He went that Tuesday intending to talk to
his teacher and say he needed a break. When he got home four hours later
(having stayed for two other classes after he taught the beginning class), he was
totally energized and said when he saw the little kids he just couldn't quit.
So a slump, whether it lasts days with a teen or minutes with a toddler, can
be overcome by persuasion and inspiration, and if a mom is honest and says "I
think you'll have fun, let's at least go and try for a minute," that's a
useful mom thing to do. I don't like it about spinach, but in most cases it's
kinda reasonable with social situations or museum displays or climbing equipment
or swings. (Kids with serious aversions or conditions are excepted from my
"most cases.")
Sandra
writes:
<<
Could people who have opinions on the play date hot dog bribe story
(excerpted below) please elaborate a bit on why they think it was or
wasn't manipulative? If I'm counting right I saw two "non-manipulative
method of persuasion" and no "manipulation" votes, and I was a bit
surprised. Was it primarily the happy ending, or do people just not
find the series of events manipulative? >>
Manipulation would've been saying, "No, I'm just going to get gas, come on,"
and then saying, "Oh! I think I left my glasses in Susie's mom's car!" and
then pulling up and saying, "Gosh, since we're here, you want to play?"
If my husband wants me to go with him somewhere, he might try to sweeten the
deal by offering to go with me to something he usually avoids, or offering
dinner at my favorite restaurant on the way.
If Holly wants a friend to come over, she might offer to guarantee to play
the thing the friend likes best, even if it wouldn't be Holly's first choice.
It would only be manipulation if she weasled out of it after the friend got
here, I think. If she actually DOES play Barbies or house for two hours, that
was negotiation, not manipulation.
I have physically carried kids before, mostly out, rather than in. With
really young kids who arent' so far removed from being carried by their mom, it's
not so off.
Marty, even in the past few years, has a habit of panicking before he does
something. We applied for and got him accepted into the junior police academy,
which he loved and I knew he would love, and he wanted to do. The weekend
before, he started reciting the reasons he should just not go. I countered them
all. I told him he needed to go and SEE, not just decide based on his
imagination. It was one of the best weeks of his life so far, and he thought so
within an hour of getting in there. Had I let his hesitation stop the whole
thing, I wouldn't have been a very good partner. I didn't carry him, but I said,
"NO, they let you in, not everyone got in, you have an obligation to do this."
When Kirby wanted to quit karate, I was disappointed but I remembered being
18 and so I didn't press very hard. He went that Tuesday intending to talk to
his teacher and say he needed a break. When he got home four hours later
(having stayed for two other classes after he taught the beginning class), he was
totally energized and said when he saw the little kids he just couldn't quit.
So a slump, whether it lasts days with a teen or minutes with a toddler, can
be overcome by persuasion and inspiration, and if a mom is honest and says "I
think you'll have fun, let's at least go and try for a minute," that's a
useful mom thing to do. I don't like it about spinach, but in most cases it's
kinda reasonable with social situations or museum displays or climbing equipment
or swings. (Kids with serious aversions or conditions are excepted from my
"most cases.")
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/20/05 10:56:00 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< But I
think that advice that has been offered here about kids staying up alone
is mostly aimed at kids older than 5. (And I really can't imagine 3
year olds staying up alone.) I agree that I'm not comfortable with
young kids having lots of time awake when the parental supervision has
fallen asleep. >>
Exactly. It's about not having arbitrary limits, not about encouraging kids
to stay up as long as they possibly can. Not enforcing an 8:00 bedtime isn't
the same as saying "I don't care if or when you sleep."
Sandra
<< But I
think that advice that has been offered here about kids staying up alone
is mostly aimed at kids older than 5. (And I really can't imagine 3
year olds staying up alone.) I agree that I'm not comfortable with
young kids having lots of time awake when the parental supervision has
fallen asleep. >>
Exactly. It's about not having arbitrary limits, not about encouraging kids
to stay up as long as they possibly can. Not enforcing an 8:00 bedtime isn't
the same as saying "I don't care if or when you sleep."
Sandra
Angela S
<<<<THe boy was anticipating a museum trip.
Museum trip cancelled and other arrangements made without his
consultation.
Boy didn't want to go.
Mom was out of her comfort zone to call other mom to cancel.
The rest of the story sounds sad to me. I think the boy had no
choice but to warm up to the playdate, otherwise he would have sat
outside the whole time. Kind of sad for 5 year old.>>>>
That was pretty much how I read it. I felt bad for the boy. I personally
think it isn't very respectful to carry an unwilling child into a house or
to trick him (even by omission) to get him to go somewhere. If I knew it
was pretty likely that my child would change his mind about wanting to go
somewhere at the last minute, I would only accept invitations to things that
it's o.k. to not go to at the last minute. Things where the other people
aren't affected if you don't go, as in a park day. The stage he is in won't
last forever. I would stop asking him if he wanted to arrange play dates at
all unless he approached me first with that need. Sometimes kids say yes
because they think that is the answer you are looking for. If you have the
need to be with other moms, maybe they would be willing to come to your
house to visit for a while. Perhaps you can explain your situation to them
and they'll understand.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Museum trip cancelled and other arrangements made without his
consultation.
Boy didn't want to go.
Mom was out of her comfort zone to call other mom to cancel.
The rest of the story sounds sad to me. I think the boy had no
choice but to warm up to the playdate, otherwise he would have sat
outside the whole time. Kind of sad for 5 year old.>>>>
That was pretty much how I read it. I felt bad for the boy. I personally
think it isn't very respectful to carry an unwilling child into a house or
to trick him (even by omission) to get him to go somewhere. If I knew it
was pretty likely that my child would change his mind about wanting to go
somewhere at the last minute, I would only accept invitations to things that
it's o.k. to not go to at the last minute. Things where the other people
aren't affected if you don't go, as in a park day. The stage he is in won't
last forever. I would stop asking him if he wanted to arrange play dates at
all unless he approached me first with that need. Sometimes kids say yes
because they think that is the answer you are looking for. If you have the
need to be with other moms, maybe they would be willing to come to your
house to visit for a while. Perhaps you can explain your situation to them
and they'll understand.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***The rest of the story sounds sad to me. I think the boy had no
choice but to warm up to the playdate, otherwise he would have sat
outside the whole time. Kind of sad for 5 year old.***
The mom didn't say she would have made him sit in the car for the entire
length of the play date.
She told him she wanted to go in and he was free to wait in the car. She
watched him from the window. He had visitors at the car while he was
waiting, he didn't sit in isolation for the entire time. It was not
implied that waiting in the car was a form of punishment.
She didn't report that she tried to use guilt "You wanted to play, you'll
hurt their feelings, you're just being difficult, I'm so disappointed in
you," etc.
Deb L
choice but to warm up to the playdate, otherwise he would have sat
outside the whole time. Kind of sad for 5 year old.***
The mom didn't say she would have made him sit in the car for the entire
length of the play date.
She told him she wanted to go in and he was free to wait in the car. She
watched him from the window. He had visitors at the car while he was
waiting, he didn't sit in isolation for the entire time. It was not
implied that waiting in the car was a form of punishment.
She didn't report that she tried to use guilt "You wanted to play, you'll
hurt their feelings, you're just being difficult, I'm so disappointed in
you," etc.
Deb L
Angela S
Sandra wrote:
<<<<Manipulation would've been saying, "No, I'm just going to get gas, come
on,"
and then saying, "Oh! I think I left my glasses in Susie's mom's car!" and
then pulling up and saying, "Gosh, since we're here, you want to play?">>>>
Yeah, but he said he'd only go if it were to get the hotdog and that's it.
She said o.k to that thinking at least it would get him in the car. Here's
the quote:
Sheila wrote:
" So I bribed him with stopping for a hot dog and hot chocolate at a
Turkey Hill on the way (He loves hot dogs). He said he'd go to the
turkey hill but not to the house. I said okay, knowing at least it
would get him in the car. If I had said, "No, we're going to do
both", I couldn't have gotten him in the car."
She didn't just sweeten the trip with a stop at Turkey Hill *on the way*.
She agreed that that was the only place they would go.
Sheila wrote:
<<< But after we got the
hot dog I said, "Let's just go to their house and if you don't like
it you don't have to stay long".>>>
20 minutes of sitting in the car is a long time to a 5 yo. I'll bet he felt
like he had stayed long enough to be able to home at that point, because she
said if you don't like it, you don't have to stay long.
Sheila wrote:
<<< We got there and he refused to go
in. I carried him in thinking that if he saw the toys and his friend
he'd be okay. He ran out of the house and back into the car. So I
told him I wanted to go in and that he could wait in the car."
I am not so sure you can compare a 5 yo's play date at a friend's house,
which he didn't agree to go to in the first place, with a teenager's
pre-planned application and acceptance to the junior police academy, which
he then was unsure of attending after being accepted, possibly out of
nervousness.
<<<<If my husband wants me to go with him somewhere, he might try to
sweeten the
deal by offering to go with me to something he usually avoids, or offering
dinner at my favorite restaurant on the way.>>>
But if he agreed to go to ONLY one place and then when you refused to go to
a second place, he proceeded to carry or drag you in, it wouldn't be very
respectful.
<<<If Holly wants a friend to come over, she might offer to guarantee to
play
the thing the friend likes best, even if it wouldn't be Holly's first
choice.
It would only be manipulation if she weasled out of it after the friend got
here, I think. If she actually DOES play Barbies or house for two hours,
that
was negotiation, not manipulation.>>>
I agree with that. It's all about working things out. Give and take.
I'll do this for you, if you'll do that for me. But it wasn't like that.
The mom agreed to only go to the hotdog place.
<<<I have physically carried kids before, mostly out, rather than in. With
really young kids who arent' so far removed from being carried by their mom,
it's
not so off.>>>
Kids can be having a great time sometimes and not want to leave when you
really have to go. But what drives me nuts with some people is that they
don't give the kids warning, they don't talk to the kids, they don't
reflect their feelings back to them, letting them know they understand how
hard it is to leave when they are having fun, they often just pick them up
kicking and screaming and take them out. Even the smallest child feels
better when you reflect their feelings back to them and tell them you
understand and maybe help them to plan ahead when they can come back again.
<<<So a slump, whether it lasts days with a teen or minutes with a toddler,
can
be overcome by persuasion and inspiration, and if a mom is honest and says
"I
think you'll have fun, let's at least go and try for a minute," that's a
useful mom thing to do.<<<<
I agree with this. It just isn't what she said happened.
Angela
Game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<<Manipulation would've been saying, "No, I'm just going to get gas, come
on,"
and then saying, "Oh! I think I left my glasses in Susie's mom's car!" and
then pulling up and saying, "Gosh, since we're here, you want to play?">>>>
Yeah, but he said he'd only go if it were to get the hotdog and that's it.
She said o.k to that thinking at least it would get him in the car. Here's
the quote:
Sheila wrote:
" So I bribed him with stopping for a hot dog and hot chocolate at a
Turkey Hill on the way (He loves hot dogs). He said he'd go to the
turkey hill but not to the house. I said okay, knowing at least it
would get him in the car. If I had said, "No, we're going to do
both", I couldn't have gotten him in the car."
She didn't just sweeten the trip with a stop at Turkey Hill *on the way*.
She agreed that that was the only place they would go.
Sheila wrote:
<<< But after we got the
hot dog I said, "Let's just go to their house and if you don't like
it you don't have to stay long".>>>
20 minutes of sitting in the car is a long time to a 5 yo. I'll bet he felt
like he had stayed long enough to be able to home at that point, because she
said if you don't like it, you don't have to stay long.
Sheila wrote:
<<< We got there and he refused to go
in. I carried him in thinking that if he saw the toys and his friend
he'd be okay. He ran out of the house and back into the car. So I
told him I wanted to go in and that he could wait in the car."
I am not so sure you can compare a 5 yo's play date at a friend's house,
which he didn't agree to go to in the first place, with a teenager's
pre-planned application and acceptance to the junior police academy, which
he then was unsure of attending after being accepted, possibly out of
nervousness.
<<<<If my husband wants me to go with him somewhere, he might try to
sweeten the
deal by offering to go with me to something he usually avoids, or offering
dinner at my favorite restaurant on the way.>>>
But if he agreed to go to ONLY one place and then when you refused to go to
a second place, he proceeded to carry or drag you in, it wouldn't be very
respectful.
<<<If Holly wants a friend to come over, she might offer to guarantee to
play
the thing the friend likes best, even if it wouldn't be Holly's first
choice.
It would only be manipulation if she weasled out of it after the friend got
here, I think. If she actually DOES play Barbies or house for two hours,
that
was negotiation, not manipulation.>>>
I agree with that. It's all about working things out. Give and take.
I'll do this for you, if you'll do that for me. But it wasn't like that.
The mom agreed to only go to the hotdog place.
<<<I have physically carried kids before, mostly out, rather than in. With
really young kids who arent' so far removed from being carried by their mom,
it's
not so off.>>>
Kids can be having a great time sometimes and not want to leave when you
really have to go. But what drives me nuts with some people is that they
don't give the kids warning, they don't talk to the kids, they don't
reflect their feelings back to them, letting them know they understand how
hard it is to leave when they are having fun, they often just pick them up
kicking and screaming and take them out. Even the smallest child feels
better when you reflect their feelings back to them and tell them you
understand and maybe help them to plan ahead when they can come back again.
<<<So a slump, whether it lasts days with a teen or minutes with a toddler,
can
be overcome by persuasion and inspiration, and if a mom is honest and says
"I
think you'll have fun, let's at least go and try for a minute," that's a
useful mom thing to do.<<<<
I agree with this. It just isn't what she said happened.
Angela
Game-enthusiast@...
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Angela S
***The rest of the story sounds sad to me. I think the boy had no
choice but to warm up to the playdate, otherwise he would have sat
outside the whole time. Kind of sad for 5 year old.***
<<<The mom didn't say she would have made him sit in the car for the entire
length of the play date.
She told him she wanted to go in and he was free to wait in the car.>>>
She also said " "Let's just go to their house and if you don't like
it you don't have to stay long".
How long is not long to a 5 yo? What were his alternatives? Sitting in the
car or going in the house and making the best of it? I guess he could have
gone into the house and made the worst of it or sat outside the car in the
yard.
<<< She
watched him from the window. He had visitors at the car while he was
waiting, he didn't sit in isolation for the entire time. It was not
implied that waiting in the car was a form of punishment.>>>
It might not have been a form of punishment, but they were all trying to
coerce him into staying when he was told he wasn't even going there to begin
with. My kids don't like to sit in the car alone and even if I didn't imply
it was a punishment, it would feel like one to them.
Angela
Game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
choice but to warm up to the playdate, otherwise he would have sat
outside the whole time. Kind of sad for 5 year old.***
<<<The mom didn't say she would have made him sit in the car for the entire
length of the play date.
She told him she wanted to go in and he was free to wait in the car.>>>
She also said " "Let's just go to their house and if you don't like
it you don't have to stay long".
How long is not long to a 5 yo? What were his alternatives? Sitting in the
car or going in the house and making the best of it? I guess he could have
gone into the house and made the worst of it or sat outside the car in the
yard.
<<< She
watched him from the window. He had visitors at the car while he was
waiting, he didn't sit in isolation for the entire time. It was not
implied that waiting in the car was a form of punishment.>>>
It might not have been a form of punishment, but they were all trying to
coerce him into staying when he was told he wasn't even going there to begin
with. My kids don't like to sit in the car alone and even if I didn't imply
it was a punishment, it would feel like one to them.
Angela
Game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/20/05 12:02:28 PM, game-enthusiast@... writes:
<< " So I bribed him with stopping for a hot dog and hot chocolate at a
Turkey Hill on the way (He loves hot dogs). He said he'd go to the
turkey hill but not to the house. I said okay, knowing at least it
would get him in the car. If I had said, "No, we're going to do
both", I couldn't have gotten him in the car." >>
True, then.
After they were in the car, there were other decision points.
We go to folksinging parties. Sometimes Holly has wanted to leave before I
was ready to go, or Keith (husband) has been having less than usual fun. I
usually let that signal me to start wrapping it up, but I dont jump up and leave
the second one of them gives me the eye. Neither do I stay until midnight
once I know one of us has lost interest.
With kids and playing, maybe I was coming at it from the point of view of the
other child's mom. It's very sad when a kid is looking forward to playing
and the other kids stands her up, or says "Yes, I'll come play" and then comes
so late they only have half an hour or something. And what's WAY worse (but
totally changes the subject) has been when the other kid is "grounded" and so
can't come and play. WHAT!? They violated some rule the parents just
shouldn't have had and now MY kid is punished!? That frustration has colored my
world about the other families wimping out on keeping a playdate, maybe, and
maybe I'm too tainted by disappointments and my own kids' sorrow to think it's
evil for another mom to say, "Let's just DO it." Because the kids almost always
do have a lot of fun once they start playing.
Dishonesty's no good, though, either.
Sandra
<< " So I bribed him with stopping for a hot dog and hot chocolate at a
Turkey Hill on the way (He loves hot dogs). He said he'd go to the
turkey hill but not to the house. I said okay, knowing at least it
would get him in the car. If I had said, "No, we're going to do
both", I couldn't have gotten him in the car." >>
True, then.
After they were in the car, there were other decision points.
We go to folksinging parties. Sometimes Holly has wanted to leave before I
was ready to go, or Keith (husband) has been having less than usual fun. I
usually let that signal me to start wrapping it up, but I dont jump up and leave
the second one of them gives me the eye. Neither do I stay until midnight
once I know one of us has lost interest.
With kids and playing, maybe I was coming at it from the point of view of the
other child's mom. It's very sad when a kid is looking forward to playing
and the other kids stands her up, or says "Yes, I'll come play" and then comes
so late they only have half an hour or something. And what's WAY worse (but
totally changes the subject) has been when the other kid is "grounded" and so
can't come and play. WHAT!? They violated some rule the parents just
shouldn't have had and now MY kid is punished!? That frustration has colored my
world about the other families wimping out on keeping a playdate, maybe, and
maybe I'm too tainted by disappointments and my own kids' sorrow to think it's
evil for another mom to say, "Let's just DO it." Because the kids almost always
do have a lot of fun once they start playing.
Dishonesty's no good, though, either.
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
On Feb 20, 2005, at 11:12 AM, Angela S wrote:
I didn't hear the mom saying, straight out, to the son: "I shouldn't
have assumed you'd want to go to the house instead of the museum. I'm
really sorry. I made a mistake."
I also didn't hear the mom saying to the son: "I feel responsible
now, for saying we'd go. And I know I'd be irritated if they did that
and then backed out on us, so I feel obligated to go. Is there some way
we can do that? How about if we just stop in for 20 minutes or so and
then we have a secret signal that you can give to me as soon as you
want to leave?"
Or whatever - but, yeah, it didn't sound from the report that the kid
was spoken to honestly.
Sometimes one sibling wants to go and another doesn't - that's always
been hard for parents. I know sometimes that happens with park days,
for example. I'd hate to have them say, "Well, let's go get a hot dog
and we don't have to go to park day," and then have them drive to park
day and say, "Well, I'm going to go sit with the other moms but you can
stay in the car if you want."
I'd rather they'd say, "Tell you what - I REALLY want to go, so what if
we get you a hot dog on the way- you can eat it in the car and I'll go
sit with the moms. If you want to stay in the car, you can have some
books and games in there. Or you can come out and sit on a blanket
beside me with some things to do. What do you think? Can we work this
out?" "Okay - how about we take a timer and I promise to stay only 20
minutes?" Etc. -- negotiation has to be two way.
And with my reluctant kid, I also said, straight out, "You know
sometimes you are not wanting to go, but when you get there you have a
blast. So I'd like to ask you to give it 10 minutes and then I promise
we will just leave immediately if you're still not wanting to be
there." Give the kid a watch so they can be in charge of the time.
-pam
>I didn't like the tone of how it was done, either.
> It might not have been a form of punishment, but they were all trying
> to
> coerce him into staying when he was told he wasn't even going there to
> begin
> with. My kids don't like to sit in the car alone and even if I didn't
> imply
> it was a punishment, it would feel like one to them.
I didn't hear the mom saying, straight out, to the son: "I shouldn't
have assumed you'd want to go to the house instead of the museum. I'm
really sorry. I made a mistake."
I also didn't hear the mom saying to the son: "I feel responsible
now, for saying we'd go. And I know I'd be irritated if they did that
and then backed out on us, so I feel obligated to go. Is there some way
we can do that? How about if we just stop in for 20 minutes or so and
then we have a secret signal that you can give to me as soon as you
want to leave?"
Or whatever - but, yeah, it didn't sound from the report that the kid
was spoken to honestly.
Sometimes one sibling wants to go and another doesn't - that's always
been hard for parents. I know sometimes that happens with park days,
for example. I'd hate to have them say, "Well, let's go get a hot dog
and we don't have to go to park day," and then have them drive to park
day and say, "Well, I'm going to go sit with the other moms but you can
stay in the car if you want."
I'd rather they'd say, "Tell you what - I REALLY want to go, so what if
we get you a hot dog on the way- you can eat it in the car and I'll go
sit with the moms. If you want to stay in the car, you can have some
books and games in there. Or you can come out and sit on a blanket
beside me with some things to do. What do you think? Can we work this
out?" "Okay - how about we take a timer and I promise to stay only 20
minutes?" Etc. -- negotiation has to be two way.
And with my reluctant kid, I also said, straight out, "You know
sometimes you are not wanting to go, but when you get there you have a
blast. So I'd like to ask you to give it 10 minutes and then I promise
we will just leave immediately if you're still not wanting to be
there." Give the kid a watch so they can be in charge of the time.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/20/05 12:02:28 PM, game-enthusiast@... writes:
<< I am not so sure you can compare a 5 yo's play date at a friend's house,
which he didn't agree to go to in the first place, with a teenager's
pre-planned application and acceptance to the junior police academy, which
he then was unsure of attending after being accepted, possibly out of
nervousness. >>
I'm sure I can, I just did! <g>
Marty has always had that last minute hesitation, and I know he does, so even
in his teenaged guise I see it and I know it and often I drag him on through
it.
There've been times I took an "I don't feel like it" too early in the
morning, only to have a crying kid at 4:00 saying, "Why didn't you take me to
[wherever]? I'm bored. I wanted to play." Morning whining is often just not
awake or needs to eat, in my experience with my kids.
Sandra
<< I am not so sure you can compare a 5 yo's play date at a friend's house,
which he didn't agree to go to in the first place, with a teenager's
pre-planned application and acceptance to the junior police academy, which
he then was unsure of attending after being accepted, possibly out of
nervousness. >>
I'm sure I can, I just did! <g>
Marty has always had that last minute hesitation, and I know he does, so even
in his teenaged guise I see it and I know it and often I drag him on through
it.
There've been times I took an "I don't feel like it" too early in the
morning, only to have a crying kid at 4:00 saying, "Why didn't you take me to
[wherever]? I'm bored. I wanted to play." Morning whining is often just not
awake or needs to eat, in my experience with my kids.
Sandra
Penn Acres
The child went back and sat in the car
......................................................................
Not to make light of it but one of my grandsons would have and did sit in the car for hours rather than go in someones house-very shy-not homeschooled.
My ggds- at 5 ( that we raise and Unschool now) would have sat in the car till hell froze over and probably kicked your teeth in if you tried to carry them.
They still still would (age 9) (but they wouldnt kick your teeth in now but you wouldnt get them physically anywhere (g)
grace
not being much help here.
But I am getting much better at realizing and dealing with the fact that they really prefer to stay home these days and even if they wanted to do it yesterday they might not today.
I can almost always get myself mentally prepared with an alternate plan if they change their mind.
Beats the alternative.
grace.
under a clear blue minus 10 sky in bc.
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......................................................................
Not to make light of it but one of my grandsons would have and did sit in the car for hours rather than go in someones house-very shy-not homeschooled.
My ggds- at 5 ( that we raise and Unschool now) would have sat in the car till hell froze over and probably kicked your teeth in if you tried to carry them.
They still still would (age 9) (but they wouldnt kick your teeth in now but you wouldnt get them physically anywhere (g)
grace
not being much help here.
But I am getting much better at realizing and dealing with the fact that they really prefer to stay home these days and even if they wanted to do it yesterday they might not today.
I can almost always get myself mentally prepared with an alternate plan if they change their mind.
Beats the alternative.
grace.
under a clear blue minus 10 sky in bc.
----------
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 2/18/05
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]