not crazier than Steiner, but they have weapons
[email protected]
-=-Maybe Bill Gothard? Gotthard? ATI? Advanced training institute?-=-
Yes! That was the thing. Weird, weird cult-at-home program. And so some Christian homeschoolers who got away from that and did their own Christian curriculum at home felt relatively free and wild, to choose their own music, maybe make some parental decisions, maybe even let a relative spend the night.
I went to look online for the application, which I owned once years ago. Didn't find one. Found an expose/complaint article about him, written by Christians who don't think he's Christian enough (the complaints are varied and interesting), but this was fun in a Texans-are-crazy kind of way:
-=-Gothard's "Army"
-=-Gothard operates what appears to be a paramilitary-like training school for teenagers on a 2,200-acre former college campus in Big Sandy, Texas, as part of his ALERT program (Air Land Emergency Resource Team) -- purportedly for domestic missions work via the providing of disaster relief and humanitarian aid (see second paragraph of Endnote #9). Gothard states that "ALERT is an intensive program in which young men [male graduates of ATI] ages sixteen and older are trained in Biblical principles, Godly character, and practical skills. ALERT utilizes military disciplines to train young men to restore life, rather than take it, and to bring peace and encouragement to those in distress. The present program involves the following phases: (1) Discipline: in physical strength, endurance, and self-control; (2) Skills: in a wide range of vocational specialties; and (3) Emergency Services: in response to calls from cities, states, and nations." (Source: IBLP Internet web site, 8/97.) As of July, 2000, the program had 181 enrolled and 600 graduates.
-=-Since the hyper-spiritual warfare motifs of the Latter Rain movement are beginning to take a sinister shift towards actual military, Gothard's involvement in paramilitary-like things causes us to wonder if there is a connection. Don't forget that Joel's Army has a "chosen seed" (the coming generation) to carry out its purpose on earth, which is dominion (both physical and spiritual). In this context, Christians should have some grave concerns about Gothard's activities.
A-=-long these lines, Gothard has clearly bought into the "Christian America Myth" (ATI Wisdom Booklet 53). . .. -=-
The complainants are concerned the "Character First" movement endangers people by teaching them integrity without Jesus. What if they learn to be good but don't fear God? That is dangerous. <g>
One of the first really in-my-face questions in the ancient online discussions days was from a Christian homeschooler honestly baffled at HOW on earth I could teach my children morals without Christianity. Without the fear of hell, why would they be good?
Sandra
Yes! That was the thing. Weird, weird cult-at-home program. And so some Christian homeschoolers who got away from that and did their own Christian curriculum at home felt relatively free and wild, to choose their own music, maybe make some parental decisions, maybe even let a relative spend the night.
I went to look online for the application, which I owned once years ago. Didn't find one. Found an expose/complaint article about him, written by Christians who don't think he's Christian enough (the complaints are varied and interesting), but this was fun in a Texans-are-crazy kind of way:
-=-Gothard's "Army"
-=-Gothard operates what appears to be a paramilitary-like training school for teenagers on a 2,200-acre former college campus in Big Sandy, Texas, as part of his ALERT program (Air Land Emergency Resource Team) -- purportedly for domestic missions work via the providing of disaster relief and humanitarian aid (see second paragraph of Endnote #9). Gothard states that "ALERT is an intensive program in which young men [male graduates of ATI] ages sixteen and older are trained in Biblical principles, Godly character, and practical skills. ALERT utilizes military disciplines to train young men to restore life, rather than take it, and to bring peace and encouragement to those in distress. The present program involves the following phases: (1) Discipline: in physical strength, endurance, and self-control; (2) Skills: in a wide range of vocational specialties; and (3) Emergency Services: in response to calls from cities, states, and nations." (Source: IBLP Internet web site, 8/97.) As of July, 2000, the program had 181 enrolled and 600 graduates.
-=-Since the hyper-spiritual warfare motifs of the Latter Rain movement are beginning to take a sinister shift towards actual military, Gothard's involvement in paramilitary-like things causes us to wonder if there is a connection. Don't forget that Joel's Army has a "chosen seed" (the coming generation) to carry out its purpose on earth, which is dominion (both physical and spiritual). In this context, Christians should have some grave concerns about Gothard's activities.
A-=-long these lines, Gothard has clearly bought into the "Christian America Myth" (ATI Wisdom Booklet 53). . .. -=-
The complainants are concerned the "Character First" movement endangers people by teaching them integrity without Jesus. What if they learn to be good but don't fear God? That is dangerous. <g>
One of the first really in-my-face questions in the ancient online discussions days was from a Christian homeschooler honestly baffled at HOW on earth I could teach my children morals without Christianity. Without the fear of hell, why would they be good?
Sandra
[email protected]
I know this is off topic, but this morning I was thinking of "connect the dots" ideas, because I got an early copy of Dean Sluyter's new book Cinema Nirvana, about spirituality and the movies. I really want to read it.
But....
I'm reading at the Gothard site and it connected me a dot to Monty Python and the Holy Grail. There, at the end:
-=-It must be emphasized again that in Gothard's system, under no possible circumstances is a courtship to be entered into without the consent of the parents. In his seminar Gothard says, "I'm firmly convinced that God never intended girls to turn down dates. He intended for their father's [sic] to." This principle applies equally to marriage. In Gothard's booklet Establishing Biblical Standards of Courtship, there is a page for sons and daughters to cut out, which is a covenant they sign with their fathers to "… demonstrate your commitment to God's plan for courtship instead of man's philosophy of dating. …"
-=-The young person must say to his or her father, "I will wait for your full release before entering into marriage." The father, in turn, tells his daughter that "I will protect you from unqualified men." To his son the father says, "I will protect you from strange women."-=-
And that connection is?....
(I'll give you all a moment to conjure it up if you can...)
But....
I'm reading at the Gothard site and it connected me a dot to Monty Python and the Holy Grail. There, at the end:
-=-It must be emphasized again that in Gothard's system, under no possible circumstances is a courtship to be entered into without the consent of the parents. In his seminar Gothard says, "I'm firmly convinced that God never intended girls to turn down dates. He intended for their father's [sic] to." This principle applies equally to marriage. In Gothard's booklet Establishing Biblical Standards of Courtship, there is a page for sons and daughters to cut out, which is a covenant they sign with their fathers to "… demonstrate your commitment to God's plan for courtship instead of man's philosophy of dating. …"
-=-The young person must say to his or her father, "I will wait for your full release before entering into marriage." The father, in turn, tells his daughter that "I will protect you from unqualified men." To his son the father says, "I will protect you from strange women."-=-
And that connection is?....
(I'll give you all a moment to conjure it up if you can...)
[email protected]
Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
Y'know, for history buffs it has just about everything: Costume, castles, philosophy, political science, religion, romance, family strife, class struggles, medieval medicine (or at least some plague)...
But more than that, it is FULL of quotable stuff, and this one is a gem of the connection between the mythology of Arthur and the fascinatingly weird government of England, with all its special chairs and rocks and swords and orbs and fur collars and stuff:
-=-Listen: Strange women lying in ponds
distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!-=-
Bill Gothard could have saved them from strange women.
Sandra
Y'know, for history buffs it has just about everything: Costume, castles, philosophy, political science, religion, romance, family strife, class struggles, medieval medicine (or at least some plague)...
But more than that, it is FULL of quotable stuff, and this one is a gem of the connection between the mythology of Arthur and the fascinatingly weird government of England, with all its special chairs and rocks and swords and orbs and fur collars and stuff:
-=-Listen: Strange women lying in ponds
distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!-=-
Bill Gothard could have saved them from strange women.
Sandra
[email protected]
Found some of the homeschooling stuff.
I think it was this group that said IF a woman worked outside the home, it couldn't be for a male boss. She could only submit herself to her husband, and otherwise it was like adultry (or something like that, so only if she had a female boss could she work.
-=-2 To enroll in Gothard's ATI home schooling program, parents and enrolling children are required to complete the Basic and Advanced IBLP Seminars (and pay the yearly $675 per family tuition fee). Families must agree to many guidelines in order to be accepted into the school and continue in it. At the yearly ATI conference, the dress code is nearly a uniform consisting of a white shirt and navy blue pants or skirt. They must follow a dress code while they are homeschooling, and the curriculum itself describes in detail what is required for proper and modest dress and grooming. Beards are not allowed, but an exception is granted to those who have one because of religious conviction. Once in ATI, a family is sent the curriculum on a regular basis. The curriculum consists of 52 Wisdom Booklets, which provide nearly all that is required to complete the education. These booklets make a stack just over a foot high. When a family has completed all the booklets, they start again from the beginning. The curriculum is intended to be used for all ages simultaneously -- K-12.-=-
I find this fascinating like a big social trainwreck. What a contrast to the "let children choose" stuff we talk about here.
-=-And from another former Gothardite: "Mr. Gothard does not teach these wonderful truths which will set us free from the power of sin (the law) and to allow the Holy Spirit to empower us to be everything we were meant to be. No! He teaches how to be enslaved to the power and the penalty of sin. There is no freedom of the Spirit to lead in one's life. Gothard must think he has the blueprint for one's life. By the time you have "progressed" to the elite "home education" seminar, he will dictate when to get up in the morning, how to dress, what to eat (dietary law), what music to listen to, how to use the TV (never) and the newspaper (let others screen it for you), not to use contraceptives, when to have sex with your mate (based on Levitical law), what colors and styles to use in your dress, how to clean your house, how to check your mail, choice of toys, whether a man should wear a beard or not, how to use your money, how you should worship, how to be cleansed from sin, how to be right with your brothers, friendships, dating, and the list goes on. Gothard's blueprint is indeed a "how to" religion which gives people no room for personal Christianity. It is a way of controlling and cloning people. What area of life would the Holy Spirit be able to interact with a person under this system? Does Gothard know the mind of God so well that he can dictate so many details in the lives and hearts of God's people? Wouldn't this also isolate these people from any truth or added information from sources outside of the Gothard camp? Would it enhance an arrogance of superiority in the body of Christ because no one but Gothard knows God's way? (Source: Veinot & Henzel, A Matter of Basic Principles, pp.198-199.)-=-
This dad seemed to think that just tweaking the basis of the Christian school-at-home philosophy would cause better attitude and lifestyle:
-=-A Baptist pastor wrote saying that his seven children are involved in home schooling with the Gothard ATI curriculum -- "The improper interpretation of the Scripture and non-dispensationalism viewpoints are beginning to show in their attitudes, comments, and lifestyles. The beard issue started my concern (if you have one you are not in submission to God)." Gothard teaches that beards indicate a lack of humility. (Personal e-mail on file.)
-=-
And this is for Ren, a former cultic Christian and current make-up artist:
-=-16 Another example of Gothard's "system" is the IBLP Advanced Seminar Textbook -- Gothard provides information on how women are to select makeup and choose colors that enhance skin tone, how to choose a hair style, how to wear accessories, and the place of accents on the clothing, as well as how to stand (with illustrations) and why to avoid any slits in the skirt (pp. 276-281). Beyond these materials is a large set of notes called Advanced Training Institute of America. In it he teaches on self-image, responsibility, conscience, rights, freedom, success, purpose, friends, engagement, finances, gratefulness, and prayer. With material this extensive, one can only wonder when there would be time to read the Bible.
-=-
I MUST remind people, if outsiders say "Homeschoolers are insane religious nuts," the only honest answer is "Yes, some are." To say "No they're not" or "why would you say that?" or "Obviously you don't know any" will make one seem dishonest or ignorant of the true craziness that's out there.
Sandra
I think it was this group that said IF a woman worked outside the home, it couldn't be for a male boss. She could only submit herself to her husband, and otherwise it was like adultry (or something like that, so only if she had a female boss could she work.
-=-2 To enroll in Gothard's ATI home schooling program, parents and enrolling children are required to complete the Basic and Advanced IBLP Seminars (and pay the yearly $675 per family tuition fee). Families must agree to many guidelines in order to be accepted into the school and continue in it. At the yearly ATI conference, the dress code is nearly a uniform consisting of a white shirt and navy blue pants or skirt. They must follow a dress code while they are homeschooling, and the curriculum itself describes in detail what is required for proper and modest dress and grooming. Beards are not allowed, but an exception is granted to those who have one because of religious conviction. Once in ATI, a family is sent the curriculum on a regular basis. The curriculum consists of 52 Wisdom Booklets, which provide nearly all that is required to complete the education. These booklets make a stack just over a foot high. When a family has completed all the booklets, they start again from the beginning. The curriculum is intended to be used for all ages simultaneously -- K-12.-=-
I find this fascinating like a big social trainwreck. What a contrast to the "let children choose" stuff we talk about here.
-=-And from another former Gothardite: "Mr. Gothard does not teach these wonderful truths which will set us free from the power of sin (the law) and to allow the Holy Spirit to empower us to be everything we were meant to be. No! He teaches how to be enslaved to the power and the penalty of sin. There is no freedom of the Spirit to lead in one's life. Gothard must think he has the blueprint for one's life. By the time you have "progressed" to the elite "home education" seminar, he will dictate when to get up in the morning, how to dress, what to eat (dietary law), what music to listen to, how to use the TV (never) and the newspaper (let others screen it for you), not to use contraceptives, when to have sex with your mate (based on Levitical law), what colors and styles to use in your dress, how to clean your house, how to check your mail, choice of toys, whether a man should wear a beard or not, how to use your money, how you should worship, how to be cleansed from sin, how to be right with your brothers, friendships, dating, and the list goes on. Gothard's blueprint is indeed a "how to" religion which gives people no room for personal Christianity. It is a way of controlling and cloning people. What area of life would the Holy Spirit be able to interact with a person under this system? Does Gothard know the mind of God so well that he can dictate so many details in the lives and hearts of God's people? Wouldn't this also isolate these people from any truth or added information from sources outside of the Gothard camp? Would it enhance an arrogance of superiority in the body of Christ because no one but Gothard knows God's way? (Source: Veinot & Henzel, A Matter of Basic Principles, pp.198-199.)-=-
This dad seemed to think that just tweaking the basis of the Christian school-at-home philosophy would cause better attitude and lifestyle:
-=-A Baptist pastor wrote saying that his seven children are involved in home schooling with the Gothard ATI curriculum -- "The improper interpretation of the Scripture and non-dispensationalism viewpoints are beginning to show in their attitudes, comments, and lifestyles. The beard issue started my concern (if you have one you are not in submission to God)." Gothard teaches that beards indicate a lack of humility. (Personal e-mail on file.)
-=-
And this is for Ren, a former cultic Christian and current make-up artist:
-=-16 Another example of Gothard's "system" is the IBLP Advanced Seminar Textbook -- Gothard provides information on how women are to select makeup and choose colors that enhance skin tone, how to choose a hair style, how to wear accessories, and the place of accents on the clothing, as well as how to stand (with illustrations) and why to avoid any slits in the skirt (pp. 276-281). Beyond these materials is a large set of notes called Advanced Training Institute of America. In it he teaches on self-image, responsibility, conscience, rights, freedom, success, purpose, friends, engagement, finances, gratefulness, and prayer. With material this extensive, one can only wonder when there would be time to read the Bible.
-=-
I MUST remind people, if outsiders say "Homeschoolers are insane religious nuts," the only honest answer is "Yes, some are." To say "No they're not" or "why would you say that?" or "Obviously you don't know any" will make one seem dishonest or ignorant of the true craziness that's out there.
Sandra
julie w
Gothard has some ATI thing going on here in Little Rock. They bought the
old Veteran's Hospital and have turned it into some kinda training
center/youth prison (really I don't know...but after reading about what
went on in Ill. I would not be surprised).It needed a lot of renovating
so the city was grateful they took it over. He is buds with our Gov.
from what I understand and Gothard also has a youth camp in the Ozarks....
Blanket training, anyone?
Julie W
SandraDodd@... wrote:
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old Veteran's Hospital and have turned it into some kinda training
center/youth prison (really I don't know...but after reading about what
went on in Ill. I would not be surprised).It needed a lot of renovating
so the city was grateful they took it over. He is buds with our Gov.
from what I understand and Gothard also has a youth camp in the Ozarks....
Blanket training, anyone?
Julie W
SandraDodd@... wrote:
> -=-Maybe Bill Gothard? Gotthard? ATI? Advanced training institute?-=-----------
>
> Yes! That was the thing. Weird, weird cult-at-home program. And so
> some Christian homeschoolers who got away from that and did their own
> Christian curriculum at home felt relatively free and wild, to choose
> their own music, maybe make some parental decisions, maybe even let a
> relative spend the night.
>
> I went to look online for the application, which I owned once years
> ago. Didn't find one. Found an expose/complaint article about him,
> written by Christians who don't think he's Christian enough (the
> complaints are varied and interesting), but this was fun in a
> Texans-are-crazy kind of way:
>
> -=-Gothard's "Army"
> -=-Gothard operates what appears to be a paramilitary-like training
> school for teenagers on a 2,200-acre former college campus in Big
> Sandy, Texas, as part of his ALERT program (Air Land Emergency
> Resource Team) -- purportedly for domestic missions work via the
> providing of disaster relief and humanitarian aid (see second
> paragraph of Endnote #9). Gothard states that "ALERT is an intensive
> program in which young men [male graduates of ATI] ages sixteen and
> older are trained in Biblical principles, Godly character, and
> practical skills. ALERT utilizes military disciplines to train young
> men to restore life, rather than take it, and to bring peace and
> encouragement to those in distress. The present program involves the
> following phases: (1) Discipline: in physical strength, endurance, and
> self-control; (2) Skills: in a wide range of vocational specialties;
> and (3) Emergency Services: in response to calls from cities, states,
> and nations." (Source: IBLP Internet web site, 8/97.) As of July,
> 2000, the program had 181 enrolled and 600 graduates.
>
> -=-Since the hyper-spiritual warfare motifs of the Latter Rain
> movement are beginning to take a sinister shift towards actual
> military, Gothard's involvement in paramilitary-like things causes us
> to wonder if there is a connection. Don't forget that Joel's Army has
> a "chosen seed" (the coming generation) to carry out its purpose on
> earth, which is dominion (both physical and spiritual). In this
> context, Christians should have some grave concerns about Gothard's
> activities.
>
> A-=-long these lines, Gothard has clearly bought into the "Christian
> America Myth" (ATI Wisdom Booklet 53). . .. -=-
>
> The complainants are concerned the "Character First" movement
> endangers people by teaching them integrity without Jesus. What if
> they learn to be good but don't fear God? That is dangerous. <g>
>
> One of the first really in-my-face questions in the ancient online
> discussions days was from a Christian homeschooler honestly baffled at
> HOW on earth I could teach my children morals without Christianity.
> Without the fear of hell, why would they be good?
>
> Sandra
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
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>
>
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>
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julie w
SandraDodd@... wrote:
"Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because
some watery tart threw a sword at you. "
That's our Dennis.
"Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some
moistened bint (I think the British have much better words) lobbed a
scimitar at me, they'd put me away. "
"Come see the violence inherent in the system. Help, help, I'm being
repressed."
That must be my favorite scene in the whole movie. Better then the
Knights with their shrubbery, better then then then Tim the Enchanter...
----------
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> -=-Listen: Strange women lying in ponds~snort~
> distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!-=-
>
> Bill Gothard could have saved them from strange women.
>
"Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because
some watery tart threw a sword at you. "
That's our Dennis.
"Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some
moistened bint (I think the British have much better words) lobbed a
scimitar at me, they'd put me away. "
"Come see the violence inherent in the system. Help, help, I'm being
repressed."
That must be my favorite scene in the whole movie. Better then the
Knights with their shrubbery, better then then then Tim the Enchanter...
----------
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Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 2/14/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**
The complainants are concerned the "Character First" movement endangers people by teaching them integrity without Jesus. What if they learn to be good but don't fear God? That is dangerous. <g>**
I may be wrong about this, but I thought that Gothard's group published a curriculum for "teaching character" that was adopted by the state of Oklahoma. I would be alarmed if this stuff was adopted in more states. (OK, I get alarmed easily.)
Betsy
The complainants are concerned the "Character First" movement endangers people by teaching them integrity without Jesus. What if they learn to be good but don't fear God? That is dangerous. <g>**
I may be wrong about this, but I thought that Gothard's group published a curriculum for "teaching character" that was adopted by the state of Oklahoma. I would be alarmed if this stuff was adopted in more states. (OK, I get alarmed easily.)
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/18/2005 11:59:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
I may be wrong about this, but I thought that Gothard's group published a
curriculum for "teaching character" that was adopted by the state of Oklahoma.
I would be alarmed if this stuff was adopted in more states. (OK, I get
alarmed easily.)
LOTS of states, it seems.
Some mandate that it be his version.
New Mexico has one called Character Counts, promoted by Senator Pete
Domenici who is NOT a fundamentalist. There were billboards and programs in schools
but it didn't offend me in the slightest, because some kids really don't
even learn the terminology for different aspects of integrity at home, and so
even if it's just a vocabulary project I think it has merit the way they do it
here.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
I may be wrong about this, but I thought that Gothard's group published a
curriculum for "teaching character" that was adopted by the state of Oklahoma.
I would be alarmed if this stuff was adopted in more states. (OK, I get
alarmed easily.)
LOTS of states, it seems.
Some mandate that it be his version.
New Mexico has one called Character Counts, promoted by Senator Pete
Domenici who is NOT a fundamentalist. There were billboards and programs in schools
but it didn't offend me in the slightest, because some kids really don't
even learn the terminology for different aspects of integrity at home, and so
even if it's just a vocabulary project I think it has merit the way they do it
here.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/18/2005 3:22:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, SandraDodd@... writes:
Well, first off----that's TWO words. <g>
Then I thought, Why didn't they use 'optimism' or 'optimistic' as the character word? Fewer *letters* anyway! And a new vocabulary word to boot! <g>
I remember a few years ago, when we first started unschooling, Ben's teacher-sister was heading up a character-building program at her school. Her first character-builder was 'respect'---and she was doing all the paperwork and this massive launch of R-E-S-P-E-C-T. I asked for a teacher folder. I think she thought I was going to use it with my boys, since we just started homeschooling. But really I just wanted it to see how DISrespectful it was! <g>
I never got *my* copy! <bwg>
~Kelly
>>>> because some kids really don't even learn the terminology for different aspects of integrity at home, and so even if it's just a vocabulary project I think it has merit the way they do it here.<<<<I rode by a grade school the other day. There was a sign outside that read: "Character Word for the Month: 'Positive Attitude'"
Well, first off----that's TWO words. <g>
Then I thought, Why didn't they use 'optimism' or 'optimistic' as the character word? Fewer *letters* anyway! And a new vocabulary word to boot! <g>
I remember a few years ago, when we first started unschooling, Ben's teacher-sister was heading up a character-building program at her school. Her first character-builder was 'respect'---and she was doing all the paperwork and this massive launch of R-E-S-P-E-C-T. I asked for a teacher folder. I think she thought I was going to use it with my boys, since we just started homeschooling. But really I just wanted it to see how DISrespectful it was! <g>
I never got *my* copy! <bwg>
~Kelly
Deb Lewis
***I remember a few years ago, when we first started unschooling, Ben's
teacher-sister was heading up a character-building program at her school.
Her first character-builder was 'respect'---and she was doing all the
paperwork and this massive launch of R-E-S-P-E-C-T. I asked for a teacher
folder. I think she thought I was going to use it with my boys, since we
just started homeschooling. But really I just wanted it to see how
DISrespectful it was! <g>***
What they never figure out is you can't *teach* respect you can only give
it. If you give it then kids can feel it's value and get filled up and
can give it to others. The very reason schools have programs to teach
respect is because children are never on the receiving end of it and have
no knowledge of what it really is. Those programs succeed in creating
kids who can parrot all the right language for a week or a month, but
that's all.
I suspect it's that way with the other "character building" hypocrisy
they *teach* in schools.
Deb L
teacher-sister was heading up a character-building program at her school.
Her first character-builder was 'respect'---and she was doing all the
paperwork and this massive launch of R-E-S-P-E-C-T. I asked for a teacher
folder. I think she thought I was going to use it with my boys, since we
just started homeschooling. But really I just wanted it to see how
DISrespectful it was! <g>***
What they never figure out is you can't *teach* respect you can only give
it. If you give it then kids can feel it's value and get filled up and
can give it to others. The very reason schools have programs to teach
respect is because children are never on the receiving end of it and have
no knowledge of what it really is. Those programs succeed in creating
kids who can parrot all the right language for a week or a month, but
that's all.
I suspect it's that way with the other "character building" hypocrisy
they *teach* in schools.
Deb L
Heidi
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
Sluyter's new book Cinema Nirvana, about spirituality and the
movies. I really want to read it.
LOL the Youth In Distress, whom Lancelot/John Cleese rescues! veddy
good, deah
blessings, HeidiC
To his son the father says, "I will protect you from strange women."-
=-
> I know this is off topic, but this morning I was thinkingof "connect the dots" ideas, because I got an early copy of Dean
Sluyter's new book Cinema Nirvana, about spirituality and the
movies. I really want to read it.
>Python and the Holy Grail. There, at the end:
> But....
>
> I'm reading at the Gothard site and it connected me a dot to Monty
LOL the Youth In Distress, whom Lancelot/John Cleese rescues! veddy
good, deah
blessings, HeidiC
To his son the father says, "I will protect you from strange women."-
=-
>
> And that connection is?....
>
> (I'll give you all a moment to conjure it up if you can...)
Heidi
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
to her husband, and otherwise it was like adultry (or something like
that, so only if she had a female boss could she work.
You mean to say they had no problem with women in a position of
authority?
these organizations, as Jesus was a Jewish man, and under Mosaic law
was not allowed to even trim the edges of his beard. By his 30's he
surely had something LIKE bushy facial hair. One hundred years ago,
or maybe a little longer, men wore beards. It was The Style, and it's
one I'd love to see come back. In fact, we attended a church right
after getting married, in which my hubby had the only beard, and it
did receive comment from the pastor. I dunno if they were
Goddardites, but I know they were into Ezzo (Growing Kids God's Way)
which advocates among other things, strict scheduled feedings and
deeply frowns upon a child in bed with mom and dad, or even in the
same room at night. Totally counter intuitive. And counter-biblical,
too.
blessings, heidiC
> Found some of the homeschooling stuff.home, it couldn't be for a male boss. She could only submit herself
> I think it was this group that said IF a woman worked outside the
to her husband, and otherwise it was like adultry (or something like
that, so only if she had a female boss could she work.
You mean to say they had no problem with women in a position of
authority?
>Beards are not allowed, but an exception is granted to those whoI've long wondered about the antipathy towards beards in some of
>have one because of religious conviction.
these organizations, as Jesus was a Jewish man, and under Mosaic law
was not allowed to even trim the edges of his beard. By his 30's he
surely had something LIKE bushy facial hair. One hundred years ago,
or maybe a little longer, men wore beards. It was The Style, and it's
one I'd love to see come back. In fact, we attended a church right
after getting married, in which my hubby had the only beard, and it
did receive comment from the pastor. I dunno if they were
Goddardites, but I know they were into Ezzo (Growing Kids God's Way)
which advocates among other things, strict scheduled feedings and
deeply frowns upon a child in bed with mom and dad, or even in the
same room at night. Totally counter intuitive. And counter-biblical,
too.
blessings, heidiC
>
> Sandra
Heidi
Not better than "What're you gonna do, bleed on me?"
but my favorite FAVORITE quotable scene in any movie, is in The
Princess Bride. It's the Fight Stopper "I'm not a witch! I'm yah
WIFE! and aftah what you just said, I'm not sure I wanna be THAT
anymoah!"
LOL hahahaha!
blessings HeidiC
but my favorite FAVORITE quotable scene in any movie, is in The
Princess Bride. It's the Fight Stopper "I'm not a witch! I'm yah
WIFE! and aftah what you just said, I'm not sure I wanna be THAT
anymoah!"
LOL hahahaha!
blessings HeidiC
> SandraDodd@a... wrote:because
>
> > -=-Listen: Strange women lying in ponds
> > distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!-=-
> >
> > Bill Gothard could have saved them from strange women.
> >
> ~snort~
> "Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just
> some watery tart threw a sword at you. "a
> That's our Dennis.
> "Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some
> moistened bint (I think the British have much better words) lobbed
> scimitar at me, they'd put me away. "being
> "Come see the violence inherent in the system. Help, help, I'm
> repressed."Enchanter...
>
> That must be my favorite scene in the whole movie. Better then the
> Knights with their shrubbery, better then then then Tim the
>
> ----------
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cally Brown
SandraDodd@... wrote:
such a thing is inconceivable, which is why Britain's anti-homosexuality
laws back then only refered to male homosexuality!
One homeschooler years ago, desribed the Gothard system to me, it became
clear, in an attempt to convert me to christianity (I'm a born again
atheist of some 37 years). She couldn't understand how I wouldn't think
Gothard was so transparently RIGHT that I wouldn't find God through him
and start homeschooling according to Gothard.
Strange to say, I remainded unconvinced on both scores!
Cally
> Found some of the homeschooling stuff.Obviously Gothard had the same attitude to lesbians as Queen Victoria -
> I think it was this group that said IF a woman worked outside the
> home, it couldn't be for a male boss. She could only submit herself
> to her husband, and otherwise it was like adultry (or something like
> that, so only if she had a female boss could she work.
such a thing is inconceivable, which is why Britain's anti-homosexuality
laws back then only refered to male homosexuality!
One homeschooler years ago, desribed the Gothard system to me, it became
clear, in an attempt to convert me to christianity (I'm a born again
atheist of some 37 years). She couldn't understand how I wouldn't think
Gothard was so transparently RIGHT that I wouldn't find God through him
and start homeschooling according to Gothard.
Strange to say, I remainded unconvinced on both scores!
Cally
Cally Brown
> Her first character-builder was 'respect'---and she was doing allOh my gosh - send her a copy of that Ali G movie. I can't think what
> the paperwork and this massive launch of R-E-S-P-E-C-T. I asked for a
> teacher folder. I think she thought I was going to use it with my
> boys, since we just started homeschooling. But really I just wanted it
> to see how DISrespectful it was! <g>
it's called - very rude British humour - I'm sure someone out there must
know what I'm talking about.
Cally
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/19/05 1:45:16 PM, mjcmbrwn@... writes:
<< > Her first character-builder was 'respect'---and she was doing all
it's called - very rude British humour - I'm sure someone out there must
know what I'm talking about. >>
Good one!!
The use of "massive" and "respect" in the same phrase made you think of Ali
G. <BWG>
Sandra
<< > Her first character-builder was 'respect'---and she was doing all
> the paperwork and this massive launch of R-E-S-P-E-C-T. I asked for a-=-Oh my gosh - send her a copy of that Ali G movie. I can't think what
> teacher folder. I think she thought I was going to use it with my
> boys, since we just started homeschooling. But really I just wanted it
> to see how DISrespectful it was! <g>
it's called - very rude British humour - I'm sure someone out there must
know what I'm talking about. >>
Good one!!
The use of "massive" and "respect" in the same phrase made you think of Ali
G. <BWG>
Sandra