Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] second generation was ap and unschooling
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/13/2005 2:38:22 PM Central Standard Time,
queenjane555@... writes:
I think its
going to be so amazing to see all these kids grown up and having
their own kids. Maybe the questions about socialization and college
wont be so relevant for 2nd and 3rd generation unschoolers.
~~~
Another topic:
I believe every generation believes they're doing it "right", and that
they're not doing it "like they're parents did".
There are going to be plenty (too many) of unschooled kids who grow up and
become conservative Christians and raise their kids on Baby Wise and send them
to school. :::patooey:::
How many of us were raised in church and no longer go? How many of us were
spanked and don't spank our own?
When we were 5, 6, 7, 8, our parents COULD NOT imagine many of us doing the
things we do now with our kids. We just weren't "raised that way". We
Christian kids were raised to be "obedient". It's the "right way" to raise kids.
If they had had the internet back then, they'd be saying the same kinds of
things (that they say now on the Baby Wise lists)
I know, I know, unschooling doesn't give kids anything to rebel against.
But some of them will. They'll find something to do that's opposite. I don't
think we should be surprised about it, as unschoolers. How many of us ever
said, my kid will never do that, and then they did?
I'm probably too cynical, but I prefer the term realistic.
Karen
www.thanksmom.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555@... writes:
I think its
going to be so amazing to see all these kids grown up and having
their own kids. Maybe the questions about socialization and college
wont be so relevant for 2nd and 3rd generation unschoolers.
~~~
Another topic:
I believe every generation believes they're doing it "right", and that
they're not doing it "like they're parents did".
There are going to be plenty (too many) of unschooled kids who grow up and
become conservative Christians and raise their kids on Baby Wise and send them
to school. :::patooey:::
How many of us were raised in church and no longer go? How many of us were
spanked and don't spank our own?
When we were 5, 6, 7, 8, our parents COULD NOT imagine many of us doing the
things we do now with our kids. We just weren't "raised that way". We
Christian kids were raised to be "obedient". It's the "right way" to raise kids.
If they had had the internet back then, they'd be saying the same kinds of
things (that they say now on the Baby Wise lists)
I know, I know, unschooling doesn't give kids anything to rebel against.
But some of them will. They'll find something to do that's opposite. I don't
think we should be surprised about it, as unschoolers. How many of us ever
said, my kid will never do that, and then they did?
I'm probably too cynical, but I prefer the term realistic.
Karen
www.thanksmom.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Harper
Ahhhh.... isn't that a fear we all entertain sometimes? But you know, there are many many 2nd generation-ers that offer examples of this not happening. No we haven't seen it all yet, but there are at least lots of 20-something year olds that I know that were raised at least AP if not unschooled that are incredibly feeling compassionate people. I am hopeful that at least a larger number of them will not rebel. I think rebellion is about teenage angst and I just don't see that in these children or in this philosophy.
Deborah
Deborah
----- Original Message -----
From: tuckervill2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] second generation was ap and unschooling
~~~
Another topic:
I believe every generation believes they're doing it "right", and that
they're not doing it "like they're parents did".
There are going to be plenty (too many) of unschooled kids who grow up and
become conservative Christians and raise their kids on Baby Wise and send them
to school. :::patooey:::
How many of us were raised in church and no longer go? How many of us were
spanked and don't spank our own?
When we were 5, 6, 7, 8, our parents COULD NOT imagine many of us doing the
things we do now with our kids. We just weren't "raised that way". We
Christian kids were raised to be "obedient". It's the "right way" to raise kids.
If they had had the internet back then, they'd be saying the same kinds of
things (that they say now on the Baby Wise lists)
I know, I know, unschooling doesn't give kids anything to rebel against.
But some of them will. They'll find something to do that's opposite. I don't
think we should be surprised about it, as unschoolers. How many of us ever
said, my kid will never do that, and then they did?
I'm probably too cynical, but I prefer the term realistic.
Karen
www.thanksmom.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[email protected]
In a message dated 2/15/2005 8:05:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, tuckervill2@... writes:
But I think the real difference is the actual *thinking* part. Even as toddlers, they are being asked to *think*---to use their brains and to contemplate. That doesn't happen in most schooled homes (---*most*---I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt there! <g>). We aren't making our kids be obedient. We're encouraging free thought----and deep thought---on all subjects, even those we may disagree with.
So even if Cameron were to become Baptist or---or a teacher! <g> I think he would do it with a lot of thought and reflection, NOT 'just because'.
I think the conference helps here too. (PlugPlugPlug!) New unschooling moms may seem a little 'out there' to their kids (and I guess we ARE when compared to the mainstream). But when children see that there are LOTS more like them in the world, that mom's not a total nut, that this philosophy is really out there and works for others----then I think it's more likely to take hold. When they see other children---who are not in school, but are smart and joyful and love to learn---who are interested and interesting. And then when they compare *those* children to their schooled friends. And when they see *older* unschoolers who are so full of life and not drained and struggling, *I* think that *they* think a little bit more.
Cameron didn't participate in the first two conferences (that were held HERE), but he really enjoyed himself last year. Made several very cool friends and *listened* to most of the presenters. He's a convert now! <g>
We talk about it a lot---his local friends are all still in school. They're miserable. He can see that and appreciate his lot now. That makes a pretty deep impression. (I don't know how Duncan will react, having never been to school and having few schooled friends---that could make a difference!)
Cameron was out in Albuquerque last week visiting Sandra and her family. He got to see it working big time out there too. We'll be in Jacksonville in a week on our way to Disneyworld and will stay with Gail and her family. I think those experiences are valuable---to see that others treat their kids respectfully too.
AND I think that that could be the problem with the kids (like us) who were spanked and schooled and Sunday-schooled to death: we got out there in the 'real world' and saw that not everyone IS like that! What a concept! *Some* people are NICE to their kids! Damn!
I think we talk about it enough and SHOW it enough, that our kids will be more thoughtful. I think they will choose the better (and better and better) choices BECAUSE they CAN: they've had that experience for a long time: free choice. And their choices were respected, even when we didn't totally agree.
I'm as cynical-----REALISTIC----as you, Tuck, but I really think that the foundation of trust and respect WON'T come back to bite us in the butts. I think our kids may go even further---be kinder and more trustful and more respectful than we could ever have been.
I see it in Cameron already. I just got a postcard yesterday that read: "Unschooling ROCKS!" <g>
I'm cynical as hell about most of humankind. But my own kids? I think they are remarkably way ahead of me on this journey. I think they will make better choices---they already *have*!
~Kelly
>I know, I know, unschooling doesn't give kids anything to rebel against. But some of them will. They'll find something to do that's opposite. I don't think we should be surprised about it, as unschoolers. How many of us ever said, my kid will never do that, and then they did? <<<<Yeah....maybe. Probably.
But I think the real difference is the actual *thinking* part. Even as toddlers, they are being asked to *think*---to use their brains and to contemplate. That doesn't happen in most schooled homes (---*most*---I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt there! <g>). We aren't making our kids be obedient. We're encouraging free thought----and deep thought---on all subjects, even those we may disagree with.
So even if Cameron were to become Baptist or---or a teacher! <g> I think he would do it with a lot of thought and reflection, NOT 'just because'.
I think the conference helps here too. (PlugPlugPlug!) New unschooling moms may seem a little 'out there' to their kids (and I guess we ARE when compared to the mainstream). But when children see that there are LOTS more like them in the world, that mom's not a total nut, that this philosophy is really out there and works for others----then I think it's more likely to take hold. When they see other children---who are not in school, but are smart and joyful and love to learn---who are interested and interesting. And then when they compare *those* children to their schooled friends. And when they see *older* unschoolers who are so full of life and not drained and struggling, *I* think that *they* think a little bit more.
Cameron didn't participate in the first two conferences (that were held HERE), but he really enjoyed himself last year. Made several very cool friends and *listened* to most of the presenters. He's a convert now! <g>
We talk about it a lot---his local friends are all still in school. They're miserable. He can see that and appreciate his lot now. That makes a pretty deep impression. (I don't know how Duncan will react, having never been to school and having few schooled friends---that could make a difference!)
Cameron was out in Albuquerque last week visiting Sandra and her family. He got to see it working big time out there too. We'll be in Jacksonville in a week on our way to Disneyworld and will stay with Gail and her family. I think those experiences are valuable---to see that others treat their kids respectfully too.
AND I think that that could be the problem with the kids (like us) who were spanked and schooled and Sunday-schooled to death: we got out there in the 'real world' and saw that not everyone IS like that! What a concept! *Some* people are NICE to their kids! Damn!
I think we talk about it enough and SHOW it enough, that our kids will be more thoughtful. I think they will choose the better (and better and better) choices BECAUSE they CAN: they've had that experience for a long time: free choice. And their choices were respected, even when we didn't totally agree.
I'm as cynical-----REALISTIC----as you, Tuck, but I really think that the foundation of trust and respect WON'T come back to bite us in the butts. I think our kids may go even further---be kinder and more trustful and more respectful than we could ever have been.
I see it in Cameron already. I just got a postcard yesterday that read: "Unschooling ROCKS!" <g>
>>>>>I'm probably too cynical, but I prefer the term realistic.<<<<<Yeah----but realistically-speaking: given the choice to harm another or not: what would Will choose? To allow someone else free choice or not: what would Will choose? To rear a child with trust and respect or to demand obedience: what would Will choose?
I'm cynical as hell about most of humankind. But my own kids? I think they are remarkably way ahead of me on this journey. I think they will make better choices---they already *have*!
~Kelly
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/15/2005 9:07:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
Cameron was out in Albuquerque last week visiting Sandra and her family. He
got to see it working big time out there too. We'll be in Jacksonville in a
week on our way to Disneyworld and will stay with Gail and her family. I think
those experiences are valuable---to see that others treat their kids
respectfully
*******
I've been thinking about these unschooled teens lately and how cool it is
they are traveling around visiting each other. Brenna flew to Boston a few
weeks ago and stayed with Julian and Kathryn and Beth. Chris came in from
Chicago. Andrew and Dagny were also there.
My daughter who had never really seen much snow got stranded with them all
during that big blizzard and ended up staying there 5 days instead of 3. She
didn't seem to mind at all..:-)
These teens met at the Live and Learn Conferences and have stayed in touch
through e-mails and letters. I see such joy in Brenna when she talks about
these friendships. They have an understanding about each others lifestyles
that she doesn't get with her local friendships. It is so cool that they have
been able to make these friends all across the country. Not only do they get
to experience other unschooling families lifestyles, they also are seeing more
of the world both at the conferences and during their visits. It was so fun
to see those pictures of Marty and Cameron in New Mexico and I can't wait for
them all to be together again at the October conference.
It will be fun seeing what our kids do with their lifestyle choices. My
kids have been exposed to public school with their local friends (and one year
in 1st grade for Brenna), our varied homeschool choices before unschooling
and now unschooling. At least they will have something other than mainstream
public school as their only experience. They have seen how exploring and
discovering and living a life that is not widely embraced by others can still be
a good alternative and for us the best alternative.
friends and *listened* to most of the presenters. He's a convert now! <g><<<<<
I wanted to join Kelly in "plugging the conference"! It has made such a
difference in all our lives. The friendships and connections just are so
special for us all. Our home is always open for unschoolers and we are so looking
forward to seeing you and your family, Kelly!
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
Cameron was out in Albuquerque last week visiting Sandra and her family. He
got to see it working big time out there too. We'll be in Jacksonville in a
week on our way to Disneyworld and will stay with Gail and her family. I think
those experiences are valuable---to see that others treat their kids
respectfully
*******
I've been thinking about these unschooled teens lately and how cool it is
they are traveling around visiting each other. Brenna flew to Boston a few
weeks ago and stayed with Julian and Kathryn and Beth. Chris came in from
Chicago. Andrew and Dagny were also there.
My daughter who had never really seen much snow got stranded with them all
during that big blizzard and ended up staying there 5 days instead of 3. She
didn't seem to mind at all..:-)
These teens met at the Live and Learn Conferences and have stayed in touch
through e-mails and letters. I see such joy in Brenna when she talks about
these friendships. They have an understanding about each others lifestyles
that she doesn't get with her local friendships. It is so cool that they have
been able to make these friends all across the country. Not only do they get
to experience other unschooling families lifestyles, they also are seeing more
of the world both at the conferences and during their visits. It was so fun
to see those pictures of Marty and Cameron in New Mexico and I can't wait for
them all to be together again at the October conference.
It will be fun seeing what our kids do with their lifestyle choices. My
kids have been exposed to public school with their local friends (and one year
in 1st grade for Brenna), our varied homeschool choices before unschooling
and now unschooling. At least they will have something other than mainstream
public school as their only experience. They have seen how exploring and
discovering and living a life that is not widely embraced by others can still be
a good alternative and for us the best alternative.
>>> Cameron didn't participate in the first two conferences (that were heldHERE), but he really enjoyed himself last year. Made several very cool
friends and *listened* to most of the presenters. He's a convert now! <g><<<<<
I wanted to join Kelly in "plugging the conference"! It has made such a
difference in all our lives. The friendships and connections just are so
special for us all. Our home is always open for unschoolers and we are so looking
forward to seeing you and your family, Kelly!
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
>>>>I know, I know, unschooling doesn't give kids anything to rebel against. But some of them will. They'll find something to do that's opposite.>>>Where is it written that humans *will* rebel? Maybe rebellion is only a need when there are artificial limits.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/15/05 6:12:18 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:
<< How many of us were raised in church and no longer go? How many of us
were
spanked and don't spank our own? >>
I don't think it tends to go the other direction. I don't think two parents,
neither of whom ever was spanked, would easily become spankers. Some things
might go back and forth, like hair length or formality of dress, but deep
disrepect for children and violence toward them wouldn't swing back and forth, I
don't think.
It only takes one persuasive parent of two to swing the other's opinion,
though, so like recessive genes, a peacefully-headed parent could fall to the dark
side by marrying someone intent on that way. My dad could've been a really
incredible parent if he's married someone thoughtful and progressive. His own
upbringing hadn't been too harsh or crazy. But he let my mom call those
shots.
-=-
I know, I know, unschooling doesn't give kids anything to rebel against.
But some of them will. They'll find something to do that's opposite. I
don't
think we should be surprised about it, as unschoolers. -=-
I know lots of people in their 20's and 30's whose parents were hippies in
the Santa-Fe-to-Taos corridor, and many of these offspring are conservative by
comparison, drive new American cars without any bumper stickers, have newly
remodelled and modern houses with no signs of hippy decor. Some aren't, but some
are that way. (Some are my cousin's five kids. <g>)
-=-How many of us ever said, my kid will never do that, and then they did?-=-
My sister is sure I don't know what my kids do, and that they're not honest
with me. She has problems, and left her husband and kids a couple of years
ago, and so WANTS to believe that my kids are having trouble too. Mine are home
a LOT.
Maybe if you mean things like "My kid would never talk back" or "my kid would
never run around" (which some childless people say) but I never had those
things as ideals or expectations.
I like to think now that my kids would never be alcoholics, and I hope they
won't.
Come to think of it, the hippie-kids-gone-conservative had alcohol at home.
Those I was thinking of who stayed hippiesh did not.
Sandra
<< How many of us were raised in church and no longer go? How many of us
were
spanked and don't spank our own? >>
I don't think it tends to go the other direction. I don't think two parents,
neither of whom ever was spanked, would easily become spankers. Some things
might go back and forth, like hair length or formality of dress, but deep
disrepect for children and violence toward them wouldn't swing back and forth, I
don't think.
It only takes one persuasive parent of two to swing the other's opinion,
though, so like recessive genes, a peacefully-headed parent could fall to the dark
side by marrying someone intent on that way. My dad could've been a really
incredible parent if he's married someone thoughtful and progressive. His own
upbringing hadn't been too harsh or crazy. But he let my mom call those
shots.
-=-
I know, I know, unschooling doesn't give kids anything to rebel against.
But some of them will. They'll find something to do that's opposite. I
don't
think we should be surprised about it, as unschoolers. -=-
I know lots of people in their 20's and 30's whose parents were hippies in
the Santa-Fe-to-Taos corridor, and many of these offspring are conservative by
comparison, drive new American cars without any bumper stickers, have newly
remodelled and modern houses with no signs of hippy decor. Some aren't, but some
are that way. (Some are my cousin's five kids. <g>)
-=-How many of us ever said, my kid will never do that, and then they did?-=-
My sister is sure I don't know what my kids do, and that they're not honest
with me. She has problems, and left her husband and kids a couple of years
ago, and so WANTS to believe that my kids are having trouble too. Mine are home
a LOT.
Maybe if you mean things like "My kid would never talk back" or "my kid would
never run around" (which some childless people say) but I never had those
things as ideals or expectations.
I like to think now that my kids would never be alcoholics, and I hope they
won't.
Come to think of it, the hippie-kids-gone-conservative had alcohol at home.
Those I was thinking of who stayed hippiesh did not.
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
On Feb 15, 2005, at 5:05 AM, tuckervill2@... wrote:
of, logical conclusion of - the way my mom raised us.
She was young (20) when I was born and she learned a lot over the years
and we had a million discussions about children and parents and
families and education - and my sisters and I all more or less started
from where she left off.
No rebellion.
-pam
> I know, I know, unschooling doesn't give kids anything to rebelThe way I raised my kids was a really obvious extension of, elaboration
> against.
> But some of them will. They'll find something to do that's opposite.
> I don't
> think we should be surprised about it, as unschoolers. How many of
> us ever
> said, my kid will never do that, and then they did?
>
> I'm probably too cynical, but I prefer the term realistic.
of, logical conclusion of - the way my mom raised us.
She was young (20) when I was born and she learned a lot over the years
and we had a million discussions about children and parents and
families and education - and my sisters and I all more or less started
from where she left off.
No rebellion.
-pam
Angela S
<<<<<The way I raised my kids was a really obvious extension of, elaboration
of, logical conclusion of - the way my mom raised us.>>>>
I can say the same of my own mother's parenting. I have taken what I
learned from her and improved on it. I haven't gone in the total opposite
direction because much of what she did was good. (Although not all) I think
that she too, took what she learned from her own mother and improved on it.
No rebellion.>>>>>
I feel my parents lacked the ability to communicate well with us when we
were teenagers. We weren't very receptive to their attempts either because
of the way school mentality makes about us vs. them. Out of 6 kids, 4 of us
were pretty rebellious as teenagers. But I don't think rebellion has come
into play in any of our parenting. We haven't all gone in the complete
opposite direction, like I see some people doing. But that is because much
of what they did was good and we could see that.
I have a really hard time picturing my children choosing a completely
different parenting route than I have taken. I am sure they will improve
upon some things but I don't think they will go the opposite direction just
to be rebellious. That doesn't make logical sense. If they were wounded by
my parenting, they might feel the need to run the other way, but why would
someone feel that need if they grew up feeling nurtured and loved and
listened to. Just doesn't make sense to me.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of, logical conclusion of - the way my mom raised us.>>>>
I can say the same of my own mother's parenting. I have taken what I
learned from her and improved on it. I haven't gone in the total opposite
direction because much of what she did was good. (Although not all) I think
that she too, took what she learned from her own mother and improved on it.
No rebellion.>>>>>
I feel my parents lacked the ability to communicate well with us when we
were teenagers. We weren't very receptive to their attempts either because
of the way school mentality makes about us vs. them. Out of 6 kids, 4 of us
were pretty rebellious as teenagers. But I don't think rebellion has come
into play in any of our parenting. We haven't all gone in the complete
opposite direction, like I see some people doing. But that is because much
of what they did was good and we could see that.
I have a really hard time picturing my children choosing a completely
different parenting route than I have taken. I am sure they will improve
upon some things but I don't think they will go the opposite direction just
to be rebellious. That doesn't make logical sense. If they were wounded by
my parenting, they might feel the need to run the other way, but why would
someone feel that need if they grew up feeling nurtured and loved and
listened to. Just doesn't make sense to me.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2005 12:27:49 AM Central Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
The way I raised my kids was a really obvious extension of, elaboration
of, logical conclusion of - the way my mom raised us.
~~
I was just saying that there will be SOME who do it differently, and to
their parent's dismay. There are no guarantees. None. Action A doesn't always
lead to desired Outcome B.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
The way I raised my kids was a really obvious extension of, elaboration
of, logical conclusion of - the way my mom raised us.
~~
I was just saying that there will be SOME who do it differently, and to
their parent's dismay. There are no guarantees. None. Action A doesn't always
lead to desired Outcome B.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2005 12:58:06 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< How many of us were raised in church and no longer go? How many of us
were
spanked and don't spank our own? >>
I don't think it tends to go the other direction
~~~
I think it goes in all directions, and no one can predict how one human will
react to being raised by another. It's not even about how they react, but
how they are organically made and respond to the stimulus of the world at
large.
Having raised a kid or two (neither of which I'm disappointed in, btw), I
realize now it's not an exact science. There are likely outcomes, but not
certain ones. "Likely" means that some parents won't get the outcomes at all.
I cringe when I hear younger mothers putting all their eggs in one
basket--whatever they're doing. I want them to be aware that it doesn't work out all
rosey all the time, no matter what you do. The most perfect kid is still not
perfect all the time and if you try "methods" and "principles" and pat
yourself on the back because they "worked" then you're giving yourself and those
methods too much credit. It's a human being we're talking about. We can't
predict the outcomes. I don't want mothers and fathers to have so much of
themselves at stake or be disappointed in their kids when it doesn't "work". If
it doesn't "work", it's OKAY, because we don't have any control or interest
in how a kid lives their life after their grown.
I want people to know that it's better to have a peaceful home and to trust
your children, but that they're still autonomous beings and some day they may
make choices you vehemently disagree with.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< How many of us were raised in church and no longer go? How many of us
were
spanked and don't spank our own? >>
I don't think it tends to go the other direction
~~~
I think it goes in all directions, and no one can predict how one human will
react to being raised by another. It's not even about how they react, but
how they are organically made and respond to the stimulus of the world at
large.
Having raised a kid or two (neither of which I'm disappointed in, btw), I
realize now it's not an exact science. There are likely outcomes, but not
certain ones. "Likely" means that some parents won't get the outcomes at all.
I cringe when I hear younger mothers putting all their eggs in one
basket--whatever they're doing. I want them to be aware that it doesn't work out all
rosey all the time, no matter what you do. The most perfect kid is still not
perfect all the time and if you try "methods" and "principles" and pat
yourself on the back because they "worked" then you're giving yourself and those
methods too much credit. It's a human being we're talking about. We can't
predict the outcomes. I don't want mothers and fathers to have so much of
themselves at stake or be disappointed in their kids when it doesn't "work". If
it doesn't "work", it's OKAY, because we don't have any control or interest
in how a kid lives their life after their grown.
I want people to know that it's better to have a peaceful home and to trust
your children, but that they're still autonomous beings and some day they may
make choices you vehemently disagree with.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2005 6:35:30 AM Central Standard Time,
game-enthusiast@... writes:
I have a really hard time picturing my children choosing a completely
different parenting route than I have taken.
~~~
This is exactly what I'm talking about. We can't imagine it. Neither could
my parents imagine me getting pregnant at 19.
We should try to imagine it and decide how we're going to react to it, at
least. It is NOT outside the realm of possibility that some of the most
respected and heard unschooled children may choose differently than the way they
were raised. It doesn't have to be about rebellion.
We give them free choice. Be prepared for the choices.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
game-enthusiast@... writes:
I have a really hard time picturing my children choosing a completely
different parenting route than I have taken.
~~~
This is exactly what I'm talking about. We can't imagine it. Neither could
my parents imagine me getting pregnant at 19.
We should try to imagine it and decide how we're going to react to it, at
least. It is NOT outside the realm of possibility that some of the most
respected and heard unschooled children may choose differently than the way they
were raised. It doesn't have to be about rebellion.
We give them free choice. Be prepared for the choices.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2005 8:14:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, tuckervill2@... writes:
So it seems that the gentler the parenting, the gentler the future parent.
My parents spanked. And it's been hard for me NOT to, but I don't.
I had no curfew, so it was *really* easy for me not to enforce curfews----oe even consider them.
As a little child, I was made to attend church and Sunday school---and in high school was VERY into church and religion. Atheist now, but my son is looking into Buddhism and reading/asking a little of the bible (though I think teenhood is a natural 'age' for researching spirituality and religion). I'll admit, I'd be VERY surprised to find him in the Baptist or Catholic or *any* church, but I guess it's not an impossibility. But too---that's not something that's important to me, so I wouldn't really care that much.
The parenting thing IS. Yes, I *would* be disappointed if he put his kids in school, spanked, or were just plain unkind to his babies.
Those horrible teens years that we were warned about for the first 13 years of our son's life have NOT come true. I guess his easy personality has something to do with it---but I think the parenting and the unschooling have a whole bunch to do with pleasant teen years. I have no doubts that he'll be a gentler, kinder parent than I have been.
It's that rubber band thing: the tighter they're pulled, the further they'll fly. YES! I'LL SAY IT: I can't imagine mine would fly that far! <BWG>
So, yes, I know that A doesn't necessarily lead to B---but I think we can come closer and closer and closer with the unschooling philosophy than with anything else anywhere.
~Kelly
>>>>>I was just saying that there will be SOME who do it differently, and to their parent's dismay. There are no guarantees. None. Action A doesn't always lead to desired Outcome B.<<<<No, of course not. But do you really think that----let's use the spanking example: I know of no one who was NOT spanked who now spanks. Not one. Most of the people who WERE spanked DO spank. A handful of spanked children refuse to spank their own kids (more and more, it seems).
So it seems that the gentler the parenting, the gentler the future parent.
My parents spanked. And it's been hard for me NOT to, but I don't.
I had no curfew, so it was *really* easy for me not to enforce curfews----oe even consider them.
As a little child, I was made to attend church and Sunday school---and in high school was VERY into church and religion. Atheist now, but my son is looking into Buddhism and reading/asking a little of the bible (though I think teenhood is a natural 'age' for researching spirituality and religion). I'll admit, I'd be VERY surprised to find him in the Baptist or Catholic or *any* church, but I guess it's not an impossibility. But too---that's not something that's important to me, so I wouldn't really care that much.
The parenting thing IS. Yes, I *would* be disappointed if he put his kids in school, spanked, or were just plain unkind to his babies.
Those horrible teens years that we were warned about for the first 13 years of our son's life have NOT come true. I guess his easy personality has something to do with it---but I think the parenting and the unschooling have a whole bunch to do with pleasant teen years. I have no doubts that he'll be a gentler, kinder parent than I have been.
It's that rubber band thing: the tighter they're pulled, the further they'll fly. YES! I'LL SAY IT: I can't imagine mine would fly that far! <BWG>
So, yes, I know that A doesn't necessarily lead to B---but I think we can come closer and closer and closer with the unschooling philosophy than with anything else anywhere.
~Kelly
lgbryk
I have a really hard time picturing my children choosing a completely
different parenting route than I have taken. I am sure they will improve
upon some things but I don't think they will go the opposite direction just
to be rebellious. That doesn't make logical sense. If they were wounded by
my parenting, they might feel the need to run the other way, but why would
someone feel that need if they grew up feeling nurtured and loved and
listened to. Just doesn't make sense to me.
As I am reading this, it brings back a conversation my daughter and I had after leaving the Live and Learn conference last year. Before that she was not sure that she really wanted to homeschool her own children. And that is where the problem was, when she was younger I had tried that particular route -- we came to unschooling when she was around 12 or 13, but before were trying to follow a loosely based school at home. She just never thought it was a model she wanted to follow. But, after the conference she told me, should she have children she absolutely knew she would choose unschooling. I remember how excited she was talking about it. What an impression the teens had made on her, what an impression the speakers had on her. She now proudly tells people about unschooling, and tries very hard to explain that it is nothing like homeschooling.
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
different parenting route than I have taken. I am sure they will improve
upon some things but I don't think they will go the opposite direction just
to be rebellious. That doesn't make logical sense. If they were wounded by
my parenting, they might feel the need to run the other way, but why would
someone feel that need if they grew up feeling nurtured and loved and
listened to. Just doesn't make sense to me.
As I am reading this, it brings back a conversation my daughter and I had after leaving the Live and Learn conference last year. Before that she was not sure that she really wanted to homeschool her own children. And that is where the problem was, when she was younger I had tried that particular route -- we came to unschooling when she was around 12 or 13, but before were trying to follow a loosely based school at home. She just never thought it was a model she wanted to follow. But, after the conference she told me, should she have children she absolutely knew she would choose unschooling. I remember how excited she was talking about it. What an impression the teens had made on her, what an impression the speakers had on her. She now proudly tells people about unschooling, and tries very hard to explain that it is nothing like homeschooling.
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cslkll
Maybe I'm alone on this one, but I don't have the
"not my kid" attitude. I think it comes from seeing
my inlaws and even my own parents think and say that
still about their adult children, even when a brother
and a bil have made some awful judgment calls and shown
some awful parenting. I try hard to be open to my own
kids being imperfect along their paths, while giving them
love and being there for them during the hard times when
they realize that they may have acted in a way that they
wish they hadn't.
"not my kid" attitude. I think it comes from seeing
my inlaws and even my own parents think and say that
still about their adult children, even when a brother
and a bil have made some awful judgment calls and shown
some awful parenting. I try hard to be open to my own
kids being imperfect along their paths, while giving them
love and being there for them during the hard times when
they realize that they may have acted in a way that they
wish they hadn't.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tuckervill2@a...
> How many of us ever
> said, my kid will never do that, and then they did?
>
> I'm probably too cynical, but I prefer the term realistic.
>
> Karen
> www.thanksmom.blogspot.com
>
Emile Snyder
On Wed, 2005-02-16 at 06:04, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
representatives:
http://www.parentsroom.org/SpankOp.htm
Another response from Amanda from North Carolina: I am a mother of three
great girls. I am also a 3rd grade teacher, and my husband is an
elementary principal. We both believe in spanking, although I was not
spanked as a child. I resent my parents for NOT giving me the discipline
that I needed. I was never spanked, grounded, or given any form of
corrective punishment. I was left to run wild, and do whatever I
pleased. Since I am a rather passive person, I didn't choose to do some
of the things my friends did, but I did get into some things with them
that they were punished for doing. Some of them got spanked, and some of
them were grounded. This started when we were about 9 and ended well
into our teens. I never once got in trouble. I sometimes felt that I was
not loved because they wouldn't punish me.
I want my girls to grow up to be independent, free to be who they are,
and not to fear their parents or think they aren't loved. My husband and
I only spank as a last resort, or for an act of deliberate defiance. Our
children love us, and know that we love them. It's never done in anger,
and is never abusive.
http://forum.canadianparents.ca/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB37&Number=17769&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=9&o=&fpart=2
There is a huge difference between physical abuse and a spanking. Every
child should be treated on an individual basis. I myself was not spanked
however I would not hesitate to spank my child if the situation required
it.
"Judge not lest ye be judged"
http://www.christianforums.com/t91927&page=12
One important thing to note is this: I was NOT spanked as a child and
boy, I wish I was. I turned out to be a complete terror during my
adolescence and teen years/early twenties, completely out of control and
doing everything I was told not to. 'Grounding' was tried, but never
succeeded with me. I am living testimony that some children NEED to be
spanked. My mom and I both would have endured a lot less heartache and
rebellion if I had been spanked at a very early age.
Just another data point.
-emile
> No, of course not. But do you really think that----let's useI did a google search for "I spank" and "was not spanked". Here's some
> the spanking example: I know of no one who was NOT spanked who
> now spanks. Not one. Most of the people who WERE spanked DO spank.
> A handful of spanked children refuse to spank their own kids
> (more and more, it seems).
representatives:
http://www.parentsroom.org/SpankOp.htm
Another response from Amanda from North Carolina: I am a mother of three
great girls. I am also a 3rd grade teacher, and my husband is an
elementary principal. We both believe in spanking, although I was not
spanked as a child. I resent my parents for NOT giving me the discipline
that I needed. I was never spanked, grounded, or given any form of
corrective punishment. I was left to run wild, and do whatever I
pleased. Since I am a rather passive person, I didn't choose to do some
of the things my friends did, but I did get into some things with them
that they were punished for doing. Some of them got spanked, and some of
them were grounded. This started when we were about 9 and ended well
into our teens. I never once got in trouble. I sometimes felt that I was
not loved because they wouldn't punish me.
I want my girls to grow up to be independent, free to be who they are,
and not to fear their parents or think they aren't loved. My husband and
I only spank as a last resort, or for an act of deliberate defiance. Our
children love us, and know that we love them. It's never done in anger,
and is never abusive.
http://forum.canadianparents.ca/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB37&Number=17769&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=9&o=&fpart=2
There is a huge difference between physical abuse and a spanking. Every
child should be treated on an individual basis. I myself was not spanked
however I would not hesitate to spank my child if the situation required
it.
"Judge not lest ye be judged"
http://www.christianforums.com/t91927&page=12
One important thing to note is this: I was NOT spanked as a child and
boy, I wish I was. I turned out to be a complete terror during my
adolescence and teen years/early twenties, completely out of control and
doing everything I was told not to. 'Grounding' was tried, but never
succeeded with me. I am living testimony that some children NEED to be
spanked. My mom and I both would have endured a lot less heartache and
rebellion if I had been spanked at a very early age.
Just another data point.
-emile
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/05 7:06:23 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< Those horrible teens years that we were warned about for the first 13
years of our son's life have NOT come true. I guess his easy personality has
something to do with it---but I think the parenting and the unschooling have a
whole bunch to do with pleasant teen years. I have no doubts that he'll be a
gentler, kinder parent than I have been. >>
I can ditto that for my kids. They are NOT difficult as teens.
I have three teenagers. Even though things have been peaceful here so far,
if I wanted to prove teens could be difficult, I could act in all the dumb ways
parents have done in the past (and in other houses in my neighborhood today,
and probably in most of yours) and I could, myself, directly cause them to act
in those horrible ways. If I wanted to do that, I would start insulting
their friends and hobbies, saying "No" when they asked to go places, buying them
clothes they didn't like, making them sit at the table with us at mealtimes no
matter what they might rather do, run their friends off at 10:00 every night,
not offer them snacks when they were here, ask my kids whether their friends
are drinking or using drugs (without any evidence, but because some parenting
pamphlet or TV commercial said I should ask), I could search their rooms and
nitpick every single thing I could think of.
That's all. It wouldn't cost me a penny, and I could ruin our relationships,
make them start to "act out" and cause them to want to live anywhere else but
here.
All over the place, parents are being told that if they want to be GOOD
parents they will do some or all of what I've listed above, and they would have
started it years before, with control and rules and suspicion and doing more
talking than listening. We KNOW where that can lead.
What has not been known is where gentle, attentive school-free relationships
can lead. To suggest that half of them will end up as though we had done
nothing is based on school models from the past, I think. Yes, some kids who are
forced to go to church leave church and some stay. But we're not talking
about force. I didn't force my kids to stay home and have fun.
We won't know for sure for many years how this all ultimately plays out, but
it's certainly a "risk" I'm willing to continue to take, because things have
happened with my kids that I never could have imagined when I started off
letting a two year old have another cookie, and not minding if he fell asleep in my
lap instead of in his own bed.
Sandra
<< Those horrible teens years that we were warned about for the first 13
years of our son's life have NOT come true. I guess his easy personality has
something to do with it---but I think the parenting and the unschooling have a
whole bunch to do with pleasant teen years. I have no doubts that he'll be a
gentler, kinder parent than I have been. >>
I can ditto that for my kids. They are NOT difficult as teens.
I have three teenagers. Even though things have been peaceful here so far,
if I wanted to prove teens could be difficult, I could act in all the dumb ways
parents have done in the past (and in other houses in my neighborhood today,
and probably in most of yours) and I could, myself, directly cause them to act
in those horrible ways. If I wanted to do that, I would start insulting
their friends and hobbies, saying "No" when they asked to go places, buying them
clothes they didn't like, making them sit at the table with us at mealtimes no
matter what they might rather do, run their friends off at 10:00 every night,
not offer them snacks when they were here, ask my kids whether their friends
are drinking or using drugs (without any evidence, but because some parenting
pamphlet or TV commercial said I should ask), I could search their rooms and
nitpick every single thing I could think of.
That's all. It wouldn't cost me a penny, and I could ruin our relationships,
make them start to "act out" and cause them to want to live anywhere else but
here.
All over the place, parents are being told that if they want to be GOOD
parents they will do some or all of what I've listed above, and they would have
started it years before, with control and rules and suspicion and doing more
talking than listening. We KNOW where that can lead.
What has not been known is where gentle, attentive school-free relationships
can lead. To suggest that half of them will end up as though we had done
nothing is based on school models from the past, I think. Yes, some kids who are
forced to go to church leave church and some stay. But we're not talking
about force. I didn't force my kids to stay home and have fun.
We won't know for sure for many years how this all ultimately plays out, but
it's certainly a "risk" I'm willing to continue to take, because things have
happened with my kids that I never could have imagined when I started off
letting a two year old have another cookie, and not minding if he fell asleep in my
lap instead of in his own bed.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/05 6:16:49 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:
<< I was just saying that there will be SOME who do it differently, and to
their parent's dismay. There are no guarantees. None. Action A doesn't
always
lead to desired Outcome B. >>
How does that help people unschool though?
And it sounds, honestly, like advice not to bother to unschool.
If what we do has no guarantee/none (which is true) that is not to say there
are no advantages or new views.
My desired outcome is that my kids avoided the pressures of school and the
risk of spirit-crushing that is so prevalent there. My actions DID lead to that
outcome, for Kirby at least. Marty is 16 and could legally drop out, I
think, if he were court-ordered to enroll. Holly, at 13, has a DAMNED big spirit,
and might be beyond crushability by a school at this point.
Not all parents who think they're doing what I did would have the same
outcome. Some's kids are already partly crushed. Some of the parents lack
confidence or joy or perkiness. Some of the couples don't get along well enough to
provide a safe, peaceful, homelife full of smiles and patience.
It's possible to screw up unschooling, I'm sure. Someone complained to me
once that her kids were not getting along and she was frustrated with her whole
situation and in what seemed to be an accusing way indicated that she thought
if she just took her kids out of school and unschooled them, they would turn
out like my kids.
There's more to it than just not being in school. There is positive
attitude and humor and joy to be maintained, and if a child comes out of a famly that
seemed less than ideal to him he might well fish around to do better or
different. If he felt crowded, or small, or ashamed, that's bad. We KNOW those
things are bad. They are also specialities of school, and specialities of
put-down parenting.
By not having those negative factors daily in our home, and by trying to weed
them out entirely from our whole lives, that is an "outcome" in itself. We
have worked (and it is work, it doesn't happen while the mom's mind and soul
are elsewhere) to have positive interactions and feedback. So that
accomplishment is complete. That "outcome" is checked off my list. I didn't parent the
way I was parented.
If we don't decide our sucess until after our deaths, we're not NEARLY living
in the moment.
Sandra
<< I was just saying that there will be SOME who do it differently, and to
their parent's dismay. There are no guarantees. None. Action A doesn't
always
lead to desired Outcome B. >>
How does that help people unschool though?
And it sounds, honestly, like advice not to bother to unschool.
If what we do has no guarantee/none (which is true) that is not to say there
are no advantages or new views.
My desired outcome is that my kids avoided the pressures of school and the
risk of spirit-crushing that is so prevalent there. My actions DID lead to that
outcome, for Kirby at least. Marty is 16 and could legally drop out, I
think, if he were court-ordered to enroll. Holly, at 13, has a DAMNED big spirit,
and might be beyond crushability by a school at this point.
Not all parents who think they're doing what I did would have the same
outcome. Some's kids are already partly crushed. Some of the parents lack
confidence or joy or perkiness. Some of the couples don't get along well enough to
provide a safe, peaceful, homelife full of smiles and patience.
It's possible to screw up unschooling, I'm sure. Someone complained to me
once that her kids were not getting along and she was frustrated with her whole
situation and in what seemed to be an accusing way indicated that she thought
if she just took her kids out of school and unschooled them, they would turn
out like my kids.
There's more to it than just not being in school. There is positive
attitude and humor and joy to be maintained, and if a child comes out of a famly that
seemed less than ideal to him he might well fish around to do better or
different. If he felt crowded, or small, or ashamed, that's bad. We KNOW those
things are bad. They are also specialities of school, and specialities of
put-down parenting.
By not having those negative factors daily in our home, and by trying to weed
them out entirely from our whole lives, that is an "outcome" in itself. We
have worked (and it is work, it doesn't happen while the mom's mind and soul
are elsewhere) to have positive interactions and feedback. So that
accomplishment is complete. That "outcome" is checked off my list. I didn't parent the
way I was parented.
If we don't decide our sucess until after our deaths, we're not NEARLY living
in the moment.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/05 6:33:37 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:
<< I don't want mothers and fathers to have so much of
themselves at stake or be disappointed in their kids when it doesn't "work".
If
it doesn't "work", it's OKAY, because we don't have any control or interest
in how a kid lives their life after their grown. >>
All depends on what "it" is and what is considered "worked."
Sandra
<< I don't want mothers and fathers to have so much of
themselves at stake or be disappointed in their kids when it doesn't "work".
If
it doesn't "work", it's OKAY, because we don't have any control or interest
in how a kid lives their life after their grown. >>
All depends on what "it" is and what is considered "worked."
Sandra
Deb Lewis
***There is a huge difference between physical abuse and a spanking.***
If anyone really believes this they should go into the bank, grab a
teller and spank him.
He will call the cops. You will be charged with assault.
Try to spank your elderly mother in a restaurant. Try to spank a
Wal-mart employee.
Spanking IS physical abuse. Try it on anyone other than a defenseless
child and you will know without a doubt.
Deb L
If anyone really believes this they should go into the bank, grab a
teller and spank him.
He will call the cops. You will be charged with assault.
Try to spank your elderly mother in a restaurant. Try to spank a
Wal-mart employee.
Spanking IS physical abuse. Try it on anyone other than a defenseless
child and you will know without a doubt.
Deb L
Cally Brown
A woman whom I have known all the years of my homeschooling - nearly 18
years, is a fundamentalist born-again christian of the long
skirts-but-not-quite-headscarf brigade.
She was, apparently, brought up without restrictions, free to make her
own mistakes, free to make her own choices. She did go to school - I'm
not talking home or unschooling here. I suspect that this was more a
case of deliberate neglect in the manner of - um - Dr Spock? was it? My
cousins 'suffered' from the same fashion. I think those parents back
then got hold of a theory that was almost what we talk about as
unschooling, TCS, Ap etc. but just missed the mark.
Whatever, she, apparently, ran wild. She told me once that she just kept
going further and further hoping that they would take some notice, do
something to show they cared. I - and she - believe that they did care,
but that they were misguided by this theory and their lack of understanding.
She has brought up her kids - sorry, children, kids are baby goats and
equate with sin to her - strictly. Control over who / how / when they
associate. Many requirements. And yet.... their homeschooling has been
very close to unschooling, especially in their younger years. Not until
they were close to 'school leaving age' did any of the three start doing
formal study - and it was very definitely their own choice of study.
A mutual friend persuaded them out of putting an intercom in their
daughter's bed room when she became a teenager - their intention being
to monitor her conversations to ensure she wasn't falling prey to evil.
This woman had not been smacked as a child. She had been brought up in
an aetheist family. He had been physically and mentally and verbally
abused in a 'christian' household. They never smacked their kids, never
verbally abused them, were always loving caring people. Her upbringing
without smacking carried over, and obviously she was strong enough to
help her husband over come his childhood examples.
I really like these people, who kind of blow away many of my
expectations, but in a way that I can rejoice in. It's great to see the
different ways people can emerge as unique individuals from the
influences of their childhood. Goes to show, anything's possible. Makes
life interesting, don't you think?
Cally
years, is a fundamentalist born-again christian of the long
skirts-but-not-quite-headscarf brigade.
She was, apparently, brought up without restrictions, free to make her
own mistakes, free to make her own choices. She did go to school - I'm
not talking home or unschooling here. I suspect that this was more a
case of deliberate neglect in the manner of - um - Dr Spock? was it? My
cousins 'suffered' from the same fashion. I think those parents back
then got hold of a theory that was almost what we talk about as
unschooling, TCS, Ap etc. but just missed the mark.
Whatever, she, apparently, ran wild. She told me once that she just kept
going further and further hoping that they would take some notice, do
something to show they cared. I - and she - believe that they did care,
but that they were misguided by this theory and their lack of understanding.
She has brought up her kids - sorry, children, kids are baby goats and
equate with sin to her - strictly. Control over who / how / when they
associate. Many requirements. And yet.... their homeschooling has been
very close to unschooling, especially in their younger years. Not until
they were close to 'school leaving age' did any of the three start doing
formal study - and it was very definitely their own choice of study.
A mutual friend persuaded them out of putting an intercom in their
daughter's bed room when she became a teenager - their intention being
to monitor her conversations to ensure she wasn't falling prey to evil.
This woman had not been smacked as a child. She had been brought up in
an aetheist family. He had been physically and mentally and verbally
abused in a 'christian' household. They never smacked their kids, never
verbally abused them, were always loving caring people. Her upbringing
without smacking carried over, and obviously she was strong enough to
help her husband over come his childhood examples.
I really like these people, who kind of blow away many of my
expectations, but in a way that I can rejoice in. It's great to see the
different ways people can emerge as unique individuals from the
influences of their childhood. Goes to show, anything's possible. Makes
life interesting, don't you think?
Cally
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2005 11:13:30 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< Those horrible teens years that we were warned about for the first 13
years of our son's life have NOT come true. I guess his easy personality has
something to do with it---but I think the parenting and the unschooling have
a
whole bunch to do with pleasant teen years. I have no doubts that he'll be a
gentler, kinder parent than I have been. >>
I can ditto that for my kids. They are NOT difficult as teens.
~~~
My point is not even about rebellion.
It's about being like our parents and thinking we have the right answers.
Although I'm close to thinking it's a biological imperative to think that way,
I think it's wise to recognize that there is no perfect way, because it's
out of our hands. The kids are who the kids are. They make their own choices.
We can't 100% absolutely positively manipulate them or their environment to
make them be the way we want them to be. It saves heartache if we allow for
all possibilities. Again, liklihood is they will make better choices than we
made or our parents made, but there is NO guarantee.
Consider it.
Karen
www.thanksmom.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< Those horrible teens years that we were warned about for the first 13
years of our son's life have NOT come true. I guess his easy personality has
something to do with it---but I think the parenting and the unschooling have
a
whole bunch to do with pleasant teen years. I have no doubts that he'll be a
gentler, kinder parent than I have been. >>
I can ditto that for my kids. They are NOT difficult as teens.
~~~
My point is not even about rebellion.
It's about being like our parents and thinking we have the right answers.
Although I'm close to thinking it's a biological imperative to think that way,
I think it's wise to recognize that there is no perfect way, because it's
out of our hands. The kids are who the kids are. They make their own choices.
We can't 100% absolutely positively manipulate them or their environment to
make them be the way we want them to be. It saves heartache if we allow for
all possibilities. Again, liklihood is they will make better choices than we
made or our parents made, but there is NO guarantee.
Consider it.
Karen
www.thanksmom.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2005 11:13:30 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
. To suggest that half of them will end up as though we had done
nothing is based on school models from the past, I think
~~~
I didn't say half. I said some. Some is not many or half or one quarter.
It's some. No one knows how many. I only need one to prove my point. All
of you are saying there will be none.
I don't believe that.
Karen
www.thanksmom.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
. To suggest that half of them will end up as though we had done
nothing is based on school models from the past, I think
~~~
I didn't say half. I said some. Some is not many or half or one quarter.
It's some. No one knows how many. I only need one to prove my point. All
of you are saying there will be none.
I don't believe that.
Karen
www.thanksmom.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2005 11:13:30 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
We won't know for sure for many years how this all ultimately plays out, but
it's certainly a "risk" I'm willing to continue to take, because things have
happened with my kids that I never could have imagined when I started off
letting a two year old have another cookie, and not minding if he fell
asleep in my
lap instead of in his own bed.
~~~
And also, I'm not saying don't unschool in case there's a possibility it
won't "work". I'm simply asking people to recognize the possibility that things
might turn out as you could never imagine.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
We won't know for sure for many years how this all ultimately plays out, but
it's certainly a "risk" I'm willing to continue to take, because things have
happened with my kids that I never could have imagined when I started off
letting a two year old have another cookie, and not minding if he fell
asleep in my
lap instead of in his own bed.
~~~
And also, I'm not saying don't unschool in case there's a possibility it
won't "work". I'm simply asking people to recognize the possibility that things
might turn out as you could never imagine.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2005 11:41:08 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
How does that help people unschool though?
~~
It helps people be realistic.
~~~
And it sounds, honestly, like advice not to bother to unschool.
If what we do has no guarantee/none (which is true) that is not to say there
are no advantages or new views.
~~~
See my last post.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
How does that help people unschool though?
~~
It helps people be realistic.
~~~
And it sounds, honestly, like advice not to bother to unschool.
If what we do has no guarantee/none (which is true) that is not to say there
are no advantages or new views.
~~~
See my last post.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2005 11:33:14 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
unschooling@... writes:
I never once got in trouble. I sometimes felt that I was
not loved because they wouldn't punish me.
========
NOT a quote from an unschooler, nor about unschoolers.
But I don't think feeling unloved is going to happen with unschoolers who
listened to their kids enough to take them out of school, or who spend all day
with their kids making sure they're safe and having a good time.
That was a story about feeling unloved, and what I think we're after is
families who were good to their kids, knew other things to do than spank, and
whether THEIR kids are likely to spank.
-=-There is a huge difference between physical abuse and a spanking.-=-
Not a quote of or by an unschooler.
Also not true. A spanking is physical, and it's an abuse of power. It is
intended to shame and to cause pain, and parents can and should find better
ways to deal with their children.
Just in case anyone reading here thinks spanking is not physical abuse, here
are some things you really should take a glance at:
_http://sandradodd.com/spanking_ (http://sandradodd.com/spanking)
-=-One important thing to note is this: I was NOT spanked as a child and
boy, I wish I was. I turned out to be a complete terror during my
adolescence and teen years/early twenties, completely out of control and
doing everything I was told not to.-=-
Did she go to school?
Probably. Very likely a factor in being out of control and doing what she
was told not to. That would happen with or without spanking (and has, and
does).
-=My mom and I both would have endured a lot less heartache and
rebellion if I had been spanked at a very early age.
-=-Just another data point.-=-
Not one that will help people get to unschooling, I don't think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling@... writes:
I never once got in trouble. I sometimes felt that I was
not loved because they wouldn't punish me.
========
NOT a quote from an unschooler, nor about unschoolers.
But I don't think feeling unloved is going to happen with unschoolers who
listened to their kids enough to take them out of school, or who spend all day
with their kids making sure they're safe and having a good time.
That was a story about feeling unloved, and what I think we're after is
families who were good to their kids, knew other things to do than spank, and
whether THEIR kids are likely to spank.
-=-There is a huge difference between physical abuse and a spanking.-=-
Not a quote of or by an unschooler.
Also not true. A spanking is physical, and it's an abuse of power. It is
intended to shame and to cause pain, and parents can and should find better
ways to deal with their children.
Just in case anyone reading here thinks spanking is not physical abuse, here
are some things you really should take a glance at:
_http://sandradodd.com/spanking_ (http://sandradodd.com/spanking)
-=-One important thing to note is this: I was NOT spanked as a child and
boy, I wish I was. I turned out to be a complete terror during my
adolescence and teen years/early twenties, completely out of control and
doing everything I was told not to.-=-
Did she go to school?
Probably. Very likely a factor in being out of control and doing what she
was told not to. That would happen with or without spanking (and has, and
does).
-=My mom and I both would have endured a lot less heartache and
rebellion if I had been spanked at a very early age.
-=-Just another data point.-=-
Not one that will help people get to unschooling, I don't think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2005 11:52:13 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< I don't want mothers and fathers to have so much of
themselves at stake or be disappointed in their kids when it doesn't
"work".
If
it doesn't "work", it's OKAY, because we don't have any control or interest
in how a kid lives their life after their grown. >>
All depends on what "it" is and what is considered "worked."
~~~
Precisely. Our parents think they were doing what would "work". It doesn't
matter what "it" is.
If you've met your goals, you have nothing to worry about. Many parents
have not. Many parents, probably some of them reading here, do not even know
what their goals are, yet. It doesn't help them to talk about unschooling as
if there were a guarantee. If you don't care about the future, just this one
moment of how it can be with your kid right now, which I've heard you say
many times, how is that allowing for the possibility that it will be good for
your child's future or not?
I wonder if there is any person on this list who can articulate better what
I'm saying. I'm not being pessimistic. I'm not being devil's advocate or
telling anyone to give up becuase it's hopeless. I'm saying, "allow for the
possibility" that things won't go as you intended. If you don't give your kids
that complete and total autonomy, then to me it is simply manipulating your
kids for a desired outcome. Which is very similar to the mainstream.
Karen
www.thanksmom.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< I don't want mothers and fathers to have so much of
themselves at stake or be disappointed in their kids when it doesn't
"work".
If
it doesn't "work", it's OKAY, because we don't have any control or interest
in how a kid lives their life after their grown. >>
All depends on what "it" is and what is considered "worked."
~~~
Precisely. Our parents think they were doing what would "work". It doesn't
matter what "it" is.
If you've met your goals, you have nothing to worry about. Many parents
have not. Many parents, probably some of them reading here, do not even know
what their goals are, yet. It doesn't help them to talk about unschooling as
if there were a guarantee. If you don't care about the future, just this one
moment of how it can be with your kid right now, which I've heard you say
many times, how is that allowing for the possibility that it will be good for
your child's future or not?
I wonder if there is any person on this list who can articulate better what
I'm saying. I'm not being pessimistic. I'm not being devil's advocate or
telling anyone to give up becuase it's hopeless. I'm saying, "allow for the
possibility" that things won't go as you intended. If you don't give your kids
that complete and total autonomy, then to me it is simply manipulating your
kids for a desired outcome. Which is very similar to the mainstream.
Karen
www.thanksmom.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2005 12:10:21 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
mjcmbrwn@... writes:
This woman had not been smacked as a child. She had been brought up in
an aetheist family. He had been physically and mentally and verbally
abused in a 'christian' household. They never smacked their kids, never
verbally abused them, were always loving caring people. Her upbringing
without smacking carried over, and obviously she was strong enough to
help her husband over come his childhood examples.
--------------------------------
That's cool. Good hybrid.
I had a friend raised that Dr. Spock way, and her parents were intellectuals
(a doctor and an artist of the hoity Byrd family that did south pole and
other fancy stuff <g>). They kept her pretty sheltered, but within the
sheltered environment didn't control or punish her. She was my best friend when we
were nine to twelve, and my cousin's friend after that, so I got to see up
close. She ended up being pretty religious, but likewise peaceful with her own
daughter.
Kirby, years ago when he was 12 or so, said he might homeschool his kids,
but he'd probably let his wife decide. I haven't checked back with him on
that. <g>
Marty and Holly, who have been to conferences, have said they wouldn't marry
anyone who wouldn't unschool. I'm not pressing any of them one way or
another, and none of them are in imminent danger of mating up, so we have lots of
time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mjcmbrwn@... writes:
This woman had not been smacked as a child. She had been brought up in
an aetheist family. He had been physically and mentally and verbally
abused in a 'christian' household. They never smacked their kids, never
verbally abused them, were always loving caring people. Her upbringing
without smacking carried over, and obviously she was strong enough to
help her husband over come his childhood examples.
--------------------------------
That's cool. Good hybrid.
I had a friend raised that Dr. Spock way, and her parents were intellectuals
(a doctor and an artist of the hoity Byrd family that did south pole and
other fancy stuff <g>). They kept her pretty sheltered, but within the
sheltered environment didn't control or punish her. She was my best friend when we
were nine to twelve, and my cousin's friend after that, so I got to see up
close. She ended up being pretty religious, but likewise peaceful with her own
daughter.
Kirby, years ago when he was 12 or so, said he might homeschool his kids,
but he'd probably let his wife decide. I haven't checked back with him on
that. <g>
Marty and Holly, who have been to conferences, have said they wouldn't marry
anyone who wouldn't unschool. I'm not pressing any of them one way or
another, and none of them are in imminent danger of mating up, so we have lots of
time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2005 12:22:58 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
I only need one to prove my point. All
of you are saying there will be none.
-----------------
Nobody said "none."
The sky isn't falling. People aren't being blind.
If people make a decision because they think it's better, then it IS better,
at that moment. And all we have is this moment.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tuckervill2@... writes:
I only need one to prove my point. All
of you are saying there will be none.
-----------------
Nobody said "none."
The sky isn't falling. People aren't being blind.
If people make a decision because they think it's better, then it IS better,
at that moment. And all we have is this moment.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
*** I sometimes felt that I was not loved because they wouldn't punish
me.***
This is a sad kind of twisted thinking in itself. It goes a long way
toward explaining why a person would later try to use love as a
justification for hitting their own children.
Punishment is not a form of love. It is revenge.
Love is the positive attention and consideration parents give their
children so that a child never has a reason to act out in desperation,
trying to get noticed by anyone for any reason.
Deb L
me.***
This is a sad kind of twisted thinking in itself. It goes a long way
toward explaining why a person would later try to use love as a
justification for hitting their own children.
Punishment is not a form of love. It is revenge.
Love is the positive attention and consideration parents give their
children so that a child never has a reason to act out in desperation,
trying to get noticed by anyone for any reason.
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/16/2005 12:34:20 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
If you've met your goals, you have nothing to worry about.
========
Except that another of my goals is to help keep this list useful and to its
purpose.
-=-If you don't care about the future, just this one
moment of how it can be with your kid right now, which I've heard you say
many times, how is that allowing for the possibility that it will be good
for
your child's future or not?
-=-
This doesn't make much sense.
If I thought school was the only way for my kids to "succeed," I would have
them in school.
Having made a choice, I'm working to make that choice rich and good. What
they do with the start we give them is their deal when they're grown and
choose their own mates and have children or not.
I don't think it's a random crapshoot. I don't think there are guarantees.
But I know this: There is no way my kids will have the effects of having
grown up in a dysfunctional, alcoholic household. They will not have the
effects of thirteen years of compulsory schooling with it's life-draining homework
and grades and irritating platitudes.
-=- It doesn't help them to talk about unschooling as
if there were a guarantee. -=-
Guarantee of what?
Unschooling is fragile. It is guaranteed to be a disastrous failure if the
parents don't really move pretty quickly and directly toward learning how to
make it good.
What guarantees do you think people are making?
-=-I wonder if there is any person on this list who can articulate better
what
I'm saying. I'm not being pessimistic. I'm not being devil's advocate or
telling anyone to give up becuase it's hopeless. -=-
It does sound pessimistic and antagonistic just for the sake of argument
(which would be devil's advocate, I suppose).
-= If you don't give your kids
that complete and total autonomy, then to me it is simply manipulating your
kids for a desired outcome. -=-
"Autonomy" at which point do you mean?
"Manipulating" children by providing them a peaceful homelife?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tuckervill2@... writes:
If you've met your goals, you have nothing to worry about.
========
Except that another of my goals is to help keep this list useful and to its
purpose.
-=-If you don't care about the future, just this one
moment of how it can be with your kid right now, which I've heard you say
many times, how is that allowing for the possibility that it will be good
for
your child's future or not?
-=-
This doesn't make much sense.
If I thought school was the only way for my kids to "succeed," I would have
them in school.
Having made a choice, I'm working to make that choice rich and good. What
they do with the start we give them is their deal when they're grown and
choose their own mates and have children or not.
I don't think it's a random crapshoot. I don't think there are guarantees.
But I know this: There is no way my kids will have the effects of having
grown up in a dysfunctional, alcoholic household. They will not have the
effects of thirteen years of compulsory schooling with it's life-draining homework
and grades and irritating platitudes.
-=- It doesn't help them to talk about unschooling as
if there were a guarantee. -=-
Guarantee of what?
Unschooling is fragile. It is guaranteed to be a disastrous failure if the
parents don't really move pretty quickly and directly toward learning how to
make it good.
What guarantees do you think people are making?
-=-I wonder if there is any person on this list who can articulate better
what
I'm saying. I'm not being pessimistic. I'm not being devil's advocate or
telling anyone to give up becuase it's hopeless. -=-
It does sound pessimistic and antagonistic just for the sake of argument
(which would be devil's advocate, I suppose).
-= If you don't give your kids
that complete and total autonomy, then to me it is simply manipulating your
kids for a desired outcome. -=-
"Autonomy" at which point do you mean?
"Manipulating" children by providing them a peaceful homelife?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]