Re: Attachment Parenting and Unschooling was: I wish I had known
[email protected]
Hello--
I am Susan, a new lurker here and unschooler and AP parent and La Leche League Leader.
As a LLLLeader, I feel the responsibility to clarify La Leche League's mission statement which is: to help mothers to breastfeed through mother to mother support, encouragement, information and education and to promote a better understanding of breastfeeding as an important element in the healthy development of the baby and mother.
So therefore, La Leche League does not promote/endorse attatchment parenting, vegetarian or any particular lifestyle but rather states that each mother is the expert on the needs of their own family and they are just there on the breastfeeding side- (ie if a mom chooses to work and put kids in daycare but still wants to breastfeed- La Leche League focuses on helping them make the pumping/breastfeeding work out). La Leche League has ten philosophies that further clarify their purpose and with which leaders must agree, and these do encourage mothers to develop a sensitivity to their child's needs from pre-birth and early infancy on and that is why some moms who attend LLL and LLLLeaders are led to AP type practice, but it really does vary.
SO, we must be careful when we make sweeping generalizations about the "types" of people who are AP or who even attend La Leche League or those who are LLLLeaders. There is quite a diverse population in all those groups, including many more working moms where LLL used to be mostly SAHM.
It is a challenge to find someone whose beliefs are exactly in line with yours- I love Jenny's statement that "I understand that my philosophies in life are just MINE" TOTALLY!! I grew up with three sisters and while we are all now LLLLeaders, APparents, Catholic and Homeschoolers - our individual beliefs have led us to very different philosophies within these categories. Our two brothers do things differently in their families too.
By the way- what is "crunchy?"
Peace.
Susan
I am Susan, a new lurker here and unschooler and AP parent and La Leche League Leader.
As a LLLLeader, I feel the responsibility to clarify La Leche League's mission statement which is: to help mothers to breastfeed through mother to mother support, encouragement, information and education and to promote a better understanding of breastfeeding as an important element in the healthy development of the baby and mother.
So therefore, La Leche League does not promote/endorse attatchment parenting, vegetarian or any particular lifestyle but rather states that each mother is the expert on the needs of their own family and they are just there on the breastfeeding side- (ie if a mom chooses to work and put kids in daycare but still wants to breastfeed- La Leche League focuses on helping them make the pumping/breastfeeding work out). La Leche League has ten philosophies that further clarify their purpose and with which leaders must agree, and these do encourage mothers to develop a sensitivity to their child's needs from pre-birth and early infancy on and that is why some moms who attend LLL and LLLLeaders are led to AP type practice, but it really does vary.
SO, we must be careful when we make sweeping generalizations about the "types" of people who are AP or who even attend La Leche League or those who are LLLLeaders. There is quite a diverse population in all those groups, including many more working moms where LLL used to be mostly SAHM.
It is a challenge to find someone whose beliefs are exactly in line with yours- I love Jenny's statement that "I understand that my philosophies in life are just MINE" TOTALLY!! I grew up with three sisters and while we are all now LLLLeaders, APparents, Catholic and Homeschoolers - our individual beliefs have led us to very different philosophies within these categories. Our two brothers do things differently in their families too.
By the way- what is "crunchy?"
Peace.
Susan
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:45:47 -0700
> From: Jenny Altenbach
> Subject: Attachment parenting and Unschooling was: I wish I had known..."
>
>
> SandraDodd@... wrote:
>
> > -=-I�ve also been going to a local
> > attachment parenting group with my husband Joe, so we're feeling very
> > supported in our decisions these days. :-D
> > -=-
> >
> > I never knew until VERY lately (last week or so )that there was
> > such a thing as "attachment parenting groups" other than the mentions
> > it gets at La Leche League meetings and in conjunction with other things.
> >
> > What I heard was not encouraging, either. Seemed the "attachment" was
> > kinda one way.
>
> I am very much an attachment parent and it is because of AP that
> Unschooling is the obvious way to go for us. I would never dissuade
> anyone from learning about and practicing attachment parenting. But I
> want to address the ways that attachment parenting and unschooling can
> sometimes be at odds with each other, at least in the parent's mind
> (they are not at odds with eachother in reality, IMO).
>
> >
> > For me, with La Leche League, it was encouraged that we consider
> > ourselves our children's partners, and that we read The Continuum
> > Concept, and not try to press our kids to be separated from us until
> > they were good and ready and wanted on their own to walk away a ways
> > or to stay at someone else's house. Sure enough, that worked! It
> > worked really, really well.
>
> Yes, this is what AP is all about in its purest sense, and this is the
> single concept of AP. Bed sharing, breastfeeding on demand, babywearing
> in a sling or soft carrier, responding to baby's cries, etc. I think
> where things get muddy is when you look at the different kinds of people
> who are practicing AP. Anyone who does it is necessarily the kind of
> person who is willing to think outside the box and go against the
> mainstream. So by default a large proportion of those who practice AP
> are also against the mainstream in other aspects of their lives: they
> are often ultra-crunchy, politically very left, often involved in
> spiritual pursuits outside the mainstream, concerned about sustainable
> living, and so on.
>
> So when their kids are babies it's all good because the babies pretty
> much have to go along with the philosophy of the parents, which, in our
> case, is very heavily influenced by the excesses of our culture, our
> disproportionate use of resources, and the military-industrial complex
> that drives our society (our choices are based on our opinions about
> these things--so for example I don't shop at Wal-Mart because I don't
> want to support them, I buy free-trade coffee, etc). I know many other
> AP parents who share these values.
>
> >
> > Issues of TV and plastic toys and organic juice and t-shirts with
> > Disney characters on them never entered into it, and as it was a
> > pretty simple philosophical point (not a TON of points, one basic
> > principle) nobody could have worked those in and still called it
> > "attachment parenting."
>
>
> So yes, some AP groups may have this kind of flavor. It's very much the
> Mothering Magazine kind of thing--touting all natural toys, organic
> foods, cloth diapers, alternative medicine, and abhoring commercialism,
> TV, video games, and junk food. And I *have* felt judged in certain
> circumstances because I made choices that were not as "alternative" as
> others when our babies were young. ***The thing is, many of these AP
> moms are complete control freaks because they are trying so hard to
> "protect" their kids from mainstream culture. That's where it conflicts
> with unschooling.***
>
> What I have come to understand is that MY philosophy in life is just
> MINE--and that at 4 and 1 my kids can't possibly feel the same way that
> I do about Wal-Mart or sweatshops or oil wars. It's been hard to realize
> that and let go, but I'm so glad I did. In fact, I let my subscription
> to Mothering expire because I just don't have any use for it any more.
> Now I buy it as a shower gift for new moms, becasue I do think they are
> right on about baby care (although they refuse to print an article on
> Elimination Communication, which is really wierd).
>
> >
> >
> >
> > And what's TRULY weird is when people treat it as a temporary
> > philosophy, to be thrown off when a kid is three or five years old.
>
>
> Yeah, that's what gets me too. There's a lady who I met in La Leche
> League, who is very AP/crunchy but has gone the Waldorf route and her
> kids get no TV, no sugar, very few toys, and she is very short tempered
> with them when they complain about it. There's another one I know who
> was a huge influence on me (introduced me to extended breastfeeding,
> bought me my first subscription to Mothering) and now she is actually
> spanking her kids. Another one is dead set against homeschooling, let
> alone unschooling. Oh, and they all use time outs and other shaming
> types of discipline. One of them actually gave her 5yo daughter a buzz
> cut as a punishment for cutting her little brother's hair! I don't get it.
>
> >
> > Once we trusted Kirby and he trusted us, nothing was going to induce
> > us to break that bond if we didn't have to, and that made unschooling
> > a snap.
>
> That was my motivation too--not to break that bond. I thank my lucky
> stars every day that I discovered unschooling and that I have had the
> opportunity to learn from all of you who generously give of yourselves
> on this and other forums.
>
> Jenny
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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>
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-=-So therefore, La Leche League does not promote/endorse attatchment parenting,-=-
They sure were in the late 1980's, though.
Then, going to work and pumping was the discouraged exception. They would help, but that was somewhat on the side.
Is The Heart Has its own Reasons still on the approved library list?
Maybe (I'm just speculating from a temporal and physical distance) that's why the attachment parenting groups sprung up, because LLL was moving toward "you can still breastfeed if you work outside the home."
(Just guessing.)
Sandra
They sure were in the late 1980's, though.
Then, going to work and pumping was the discouraged exception. They would help, but that was somewhat on the side.
Is The Heart Has its own Reasons still on the approved library list?
Maybe (I'm just speculating from a temporal and physical distance) that's why the attachment parenting groups sprung up, because LLL was moving toward "you can still breastfeed if you work outside the home."
(Just guessing.)
Sandra
Amy and Cory Nelson
> Is The Heart Has its own Reasons still on the approved library list?Yes. Anyone interested in seeing the list of books from the LLLI
bibliography can access it here:
http://www.lalecheleague.org/llleaderweb/BEC/bibliography.html
--
Amy
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99) and Cole (9/03/02)
"What we must decide is perhaps how we are valuable rather than how valuable
we are." --Edgar Z. Friedenberg
http://thissideofsomewhere.com/
Deborah Harper
Again, I am not an LLL Leader, but LLL does encourage attachment parenting. Obviously their main purpose is to support breastfeeding, and in a non-judgmental way so that parents returning to work will get support they need for pumping, and even those weaning early still receive the info and support they need through LLL, but I don't think anyone can deny that LLL has a preference on these things. Reading through the 7th edition of the Womanly Art of Breastfeeding last night I found much encouragement toward the family bed, the ideal is child-led weaning, and there is much emphasis on the nurturing aspects of nursing versus ONLY the nutritional benefits. Dr. William Sears is a Pediatric advisor and major spokesperson for LLL, and he is also the founder of attachment parenting, and heavily involved with Attachment Parenting International. His books are numerous on the LLL bibliography. But the point is well taken and understood that LLL is there to support anyone who breastfeeds to whatever extent they do, even if they choose to let their babies cry it out.
Deborah Harper
debbliz@...
Momma to Bethany 6-1-00
Wife to Tom 7-9-99
API of the Raleigh Area
http://www.attachmentparenting.org/
Peaceful Parenting for a Peaceful World
Deborah Harper
debbliz@...
Momma to Bethany 6-1-00
Wife to Tom 7-9-99
API of the Raleigh Area
http://www.attachmentparenting.org/
Peaceful Parenting for a Peaceful World
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Attachment Parenting and Unschooling was: I wish I had known
-=-So therefore, La Leche League does not promote/endorse attatchment parenting,-=-
They sure were in the late 1980's, though.
Then, going to work and pumping was the discouraged exception. They would help, but that was somewhat on the side.
Is The Heart Has its own Reasons still on the approved library list?
Maybe (I'm just speculating from a temporal and physical distance) that's why the attachment parenting groups sprung up, because LLL was moving toward "you can still breastfeed if you work outside the home."
(Just guessing.)
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
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[email protected]
-=-But the point is well taken and understood that LLL is there to support anyone who breastfeeds to whatever extent they do, even if they choose to let their babies cry it out.
-=-
Really?
You think they would "support" that as an organization?
Or do you think leaders would really "support" that? How can that be nursing on demand?
Sandra
-=-
Really?
You think they would "support" that as an organization?
Or do you think leaders would really "support" that? How can that be nursing on demand?
Sandra
Amy and Cory Nelson
If you go to this link http://www.lalecheleague.org/LAD/becoming.html and
scroll down to the section about La Leche League philosophy, you can read
what LLL believes.
Letting a baby cry it out isn't something a Leader would ever support or
encourage, but it's true that we're there to support breastfeeding mothers
for as long as they choose to breastfeed.
--
Amy
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99) and Cole (9/03/02)
"What we must decide is perhaps how we are valuable rather than how valuable
we are." --Edgar Z. Friedenberg
http://thissideofsomewhere.com/
scroll down to the section about La Leche League philosophy, you can read
what LLL believes.
Letting a baby cry it out isn't something a Leader would ever support or
encourage, but it's true that we're there to support breastfeeding mothers
for as long as they choose to breastfeed.
--
Amy
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99) and Cole (9/03/02)
"What we must decide is perhaps how we are valuable rather than how valuable
we are." --Edgar Z. Friedenberg
http://thissideofsomewhere.com/
> -=-But the point is well taken and understood that LLL is there to support
> anyone who breastfeeds to whatever extent they do, even if they choose to let
> their babies cry it out.
> -=-
>
> Really?
> You think they would "support" that as an organization?
> Or do you think leaders would really "support" that? How can that be nursing
> on demand?
>
> Sandra
jimpetersonl
Aren't those different issues? ("Cry it out" and "nurse on demand")?
There are babies who cry and do not want to nurse. There are babies
who want to nurse, but do not cry. (More, certainly, of the former,
than the latter).
~Sue
they choose to let their babies cry it out.
There are babies who cry and do not want to nurse. There are babies
who want to nurse, but do not cry. (More, certainly, of the former,
than the latter).
~Sue
> -=-But the point is well taken and understood that LLL is there tosupport anyone who breastfeeds to whatever extent they do, even if
they choose to let their babies cry it out.
> -=-be nursing on demand?
>
> Really?
> You think they would "support" that as an organization?
> Or do you think leaders would really "support" that? How can that
>s1129ame
> Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/13/05 12:38:45 PM, jimpetersonl@... writes:
<< Aren't those different issues? ("Cry it out" and "nurse on demand")?
There are babies who cry and do not want to nurse. There are babies
who want to nurse, but do not cry. (More, certainly, of the former,
than the latter). >>
To "let a baby cry it out" means not even to check why he's crying.
If you offer him the breast and he doesn't want it, at least you're holding
and comforting him.
-=-There are babies who cry and do not want to nurse. -=-
There are parents who think they know why their babies are crying, and let
them "cry it out," but I never wanted to be one.
Sandra
<< Aren't those different issues? ("Cry it out" and "nurse on demand")?
There are babies who cry and do not want to nurse. There are babies
who want to nurse, but do not cry. (More, certainly, of the former,
than the latter). >>
To "let a baby cry it out" means not even to check why he's crying.
If you offer him the breast and he doesn't want it, at least you're holding
and comforting him.
-=-There are babies who cry and do not want to nurse. -=-
There are parents who think they know why their babies are crying, and let
them "cry it out," but I never wanted to be one.
Sandra
queenjane555
> Aren't those different issues? ("Cry it out" and "nurse onGiven the choice, don't most babies want to nurse to sleep? And the
>demand")? There are babies who cry and do not want to nurse. There
>are babies who want to nurse, but do not cry. (More, certainly, of
>the former, than the latter).
>
Ferber method("cry it out")specifically says DONT nurse to sleep,
but rather put the baby to bed awake so it can self-soothe. I think
this method directly contradicts nurse-on-demand and could
jeapordize a healthy nursing relationship.
But i had one of those kids for whom nursing always calmed crying
(nursing fixed everything in fact!).
Katherine
queenjane555
> There are parents who think they know why their babies are crying,When Seamus was a newborn, i was at a friend's house, and she was
>and let them "cry it out," but I never wanted to be one.
holding him. He started making these little grunty noises (the kind
babies make before they are going to cry)so i asked for him back so
i could nurse him. She was pretty AP (though childless, hers was
born the next year), but was confused why i would just pop a boob in
his mouth at the least little noise. I figured it couldnt hurt, if
he didnt want to nurse he'd let me know, and better to " nurse
first, ask questions later" than let him cry first, and nurse later.
Interestingly enough...my kid never eats unless he's hungry (ever!),
and told me the other day he has never experienced the "i just can't
eat another bite, i'm so full" feeling. He literally eats only until
no longer hungry, not "full". So much for those people who thought i
was going to cause him to be an emotional eater by nursing him ALL
the time.
He also said that when he has a baby (adopted, he definantly doesnt
want to have sex with a girl, he said! i think that will change in a
few years....)he is going to family bed and unschool. I think its
going to be so amazing to see all these kids grown up and having
their own kids. Maybe the questions about socialization and college
wont be so relevant for 2nd and 3rd generation unschoolers.
Katherine
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/13/05 1:38:27 PM, queenjane555@... writes:
<< Interestingly enough...my kid never eats unless he's hungry (ever!),
and told me the other day he has never experienced the "i just can't
eat another bite, i'm so full" feeling. He literally eats only until
no longer hungry, not "full". So much for those people who thought i
was going to cause him to be an emotional eater by nursing him ALL
the time.
Another unexpected benefit.
Sandra
<< Interestingly enough...my kid never eats unless he's hungry (ever!),
and told me the other day he has never experienced the "i just can't
eat another bite, i'm so full" feeling. He literally eats only until
no longer hungry, not "full". So much for those people who thought i
was going to cause him to be an emotional eater by nursing him ALL
the time.
>>Same here.
Another unexpected benefit.
Sandra
Deborah Harper
I don't think LLL encourages cry it out. But I know that they encourage breastfeeding, even with the knowledge that the mother is doing cry it out. For example, if a breastfeeding mother has strarted doing cry it out with her 3 month old and now is suffering night time engorgement and asks LLL for help in dealing with the engorgement.... (I would have to blurt out, NURSE the child!) but LLL would provide the mother with information on how to deal with engorgement issues. I distinctly remember going through LLL leader application meetings and hearing veteran leaders say that really, it is every person's choice and that Leaders are not there to judge, but to offer support for breastfeeding "wherever the mother is." They clearly favor AP ways, but a leader said to me that if a new mother only nursed her baby in the hospital and then decided to wean even before her milk came in that LLL would at least celebrate that the child got a day or 2 of colostrum, and would try to help the mother through the engorgement of weaning.
API is somewhat the same way in that we want to welcome anyone and everyone to our meetings and support them in whatever aspects of attachment parenting they are doing. We do not, however, apologize for continuing to offer information and research about all aspects of AP. We hope folks are not offended by our doing so, but hey, we are an AP organization. There will be no mainstream parenting support found there. So folks can do cry it out if they want, but we aren't going to tell them it is okay. But we will still welcome them and hope that in time they might become comfortable with co-sleeping or at least responding sensitively to their baby's cries from hearing our voices on those issues, and from growing comfortable with us as mothers who are normal after all.
Deborah
API is somewhat the same way in that we want to welcome anyone and everyone to our meetings and support them in whatever aspects of attachment parenting they are doing. We do not, however, apologize for continuing to offer information and research about all aspects of AP. We hope folks are not offended by our doing so, but hey, we are an AP organization. There will be no mainstream parenting support found there. So folks can do cry it out if they want, but we aren't going to tell them it is okay. But we will still welcome them and hope that in time they might become comfortable with co-sleeping or at least responding sensitively to their baby's cries from hearing our voices on those issues, and from growing comfortable with us as mothers who are normal after all.
Deborah
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Attachment Parenting and Unschooling was: I wish I had known
-=-But the point is well taken and understood that LLL is there to support anyone who breastfeeds to whatever extent they do, even if they choose to let their babies cry it out.
-=-
Really?
You think they would "support" that as an organization?
Or do you think leaders would really "support" that? How can that be nursing on demand?
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jimpetersonl
Ahhh. See, I'd been accused of letting a baby "cry it out" for
setting an infant down after going through the list of "hungry? hot?
cold? bored? want to walk about? etc. etc. etc."
I did not realize it was defined as not checking basic needs and then
some.
That's a completely different issue.
~Sue
setting an infant down after going through the list of "hungry? hot?
cold? bored? want to walk about? etc. etc. etc."
I did not realize it was defined as not checking basic needs and then
some.
That's a completely different issue.
~Sue
> << Aren't those different issues? ("Cry it out" and "nurse on demand")?former,> than the latter). >>
>
> There are babies who cry and do not want to nurse. There are babies
> > who want to nurse, but do not cry. (More, certainly, of the
>holding > and comforting him.
> To "let a baby cry it out" means not even to check why he's crying.
> If you offer him the breast and he doesn't want it, at least you're
>and let > them "cry it out," but I never wanted to be one.
> -=-There are babies who cry and do not want to nurse. -=-
>
> There are parents who think they know why their babies are crying,
>s04oop
> Sandra
jimpetersonl
Sorry about that. Past experience had led me to understand the AP
definition of "cry it out" as "never set a crying infant cry down at
any time for any reason."
I'm glad to know that's not the case.
~Sue (whose second was quite different from her first, who was like yours)
definition of "cry it out" as "never set a crying infant cry down at
any time for any reason."
I'm glad to know that's not the case.
~Sue (whose second was quite different from her first, who was like yours)
> > Aren't those different issues? ("Cry it out" and "nurse on
> >demand")? There are babies who cry and do not want to nurse. There
> >are babies who want to nurse, but do not cry. (More, certainly, of
> >the former, than the latter).
> >
>
> Given the choice, don't most babies want to nurse to sleep? And the
> Ferber method("cry it out")specifically says DONT nurse to sleep,
> but rather put the baby to bed awake so it can self-soothe. I think
> this method directly contradicts nurse-on-demand and could
> jeapordize a healthy nursing relationship.
>
> But i had one of those kids for whom nursing always calmed crying
> (nursing fixed everything in fact!).
>
>
> Katherine
jimpetersonl
No food issues, I'm happy to report, but DS #2 didn't care to be held,
and would go quite rigid in my arms, and then cry until he was put down.
We suffered through quite a bit of (apparently radical) AP scorn until
a very wise mother suggested letting him be.
I'm relieved to find that their idea of "cry it out" is not held
universally. (Another thing to add to my list of what I wish I'd known).
~Sue
so4o6
only until > no longer hungry, not "full". So much for those people
who thought i >
and would go quite rigid in my arms, and then cry until he was put down.
We suffered through quite a bit of (apparently radical) AP scorn until
a very wise mother suggested letting him be.
I'm relieved to find that their idea of "cry it out" is not held
universally. (Another thing to add to my list of what I wish I'd known).
~Sue
so4o6
> << Interestingly enough...my kid never eats unless he's hungry (ever!),can't > eat another bite, i'm so full" feeling. He literally eats
> > and told me the other day he has never experienced the "i just
only until > no longer hungry, not "full". So much for those people
who thought i >
> was going to cause him to be an emotional eater by nursing him ALL
> > the time.
>
> >>
>
> Same here.
> > Another unexpected benefit.
> > Sandra
jimpetersonl
All this talk of food and LLL and AP has strayed so far from
unschooling. My apologies for chiming in and continuing the stray.
~Sue
so4o8p
unschooling. My apologies for chiming in and continuing the stray.
~Sue
so4o8p
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/13/05 5:33:15 PM, jimpetersonl@... writes:
<< I did not realize it was defined as not checking basic needs and then
some. >>
I think it's going by the clock, or by mom's mood. "It's 8:00 and that's his
bedtime" or "I can't deal with him anymore, let him cry himself to sleep."
Sandra
<< I did not realize it was defined as not checking basic needs and then
some. >>
I think it's going by the clock, or by mom's mood. "It's 8:00 and that's his
bedtime" or "I can't deal with him anymore, let him cry himself to sleep."
Sandra
[email protected]
I swiped this whole from another list. It's not my writing/voice, but I
thought it fit in with this discussion pretty well! (I don't think the author's
on this list, or she'd've probably shared it here!)
quote to the end now:
--------------
I tore this out of Science News so I could share it with this group of
sympathetic moms. It's about the family bed, and the different outcomes for kids.
The last paragraph is the one that left me with my mouth open:
<<Compared with either group of co-sleepers, solitary sleepers displayed
several signs of greater personal independence. These consisted of falling asleep
earlier, sleeping through the night more often, and weaning from
breast-feeding at earlier ages. >>
Greater personal independence = weaning at an earlier age?
So bizarre a way to describe "personal independence." I'd match my family
bed, nursed til 2.5 and 4 years old kids with with any other young adults for
their "personal independence" characteristics.
And the article even states that the family bed kids exhibited more
"self-reliance and social independence."
"social independence" vs "personal independence"? very strange.
Nicky
+++++++++++++++
Here's the entire article:
Week of Jan. 22, 2005; Vol. 167, No. 4 , p. 61
Goodnight moon, hello Mom and Dad
Bruce Bower
Some researchers decry the practice of permitting babies and young children
to sleep in the same bed as their parents do, warning of its potential to
smother youngsters, both physically and emotionally. Others regard this
arrangement, known as co-sleeping, as a way to build strong families and emotionally
secure children. New data suggest that this debate is too simplistic. Two
contrasting types of co-sleeping exist in the United States, say Meret A. Keller and
Wendy A. Goldberg, both of the University of California, Irvine.
If co-sleeping begins after an infant reaches age 1 and in response to the
child's bedtime struggles, sleep is often disrupted for everyone in the bed and
family tensions are increased, the psychologists hold. However, co-sleeping
generally proceeds smoothly when it begins within the first few months of an
infant's birth and continues into toddlerhood, Keller and Goldberg report in the
December 2004 Infant and Child Development.
The researchers surveyed 83 mothers of California preschoolers. Of that
number, 32 said that their child had always slept in a separate room, 28 reported
routine co-sleeping that began during the child's infancy, and 23 said that
co-sleeping began around age 1 or later in response to the child's sleep problems.
Intriguingly, mothers reported that preschoolers who began co-sleeping as
infants exhibited more self-reliance and social independence—such as settling
disputes with playmates on their own—than did those who slept alone or started
co-sleeping at later ages.
Compared with either group of co-sleepers, solitary sleepers displayed
several signs of greater personal independence. These consisted of falling asleep
earlier, sleeping through the night more often, and weaning from breast-feeding
at earlier ages.
thought it fit in with this discussion pretty well! (I don't think the author's
on this list, or she'd've probably shared it here!)
quote to the end now:
--------------
I tore this out of Science News so I could share it with this group of
sympathetic moms. It's about the family bed, and the different outcomes for kids.
The last paragraph is the one that left me with my mouth open:
<<Compared with either group of co-sleepers, solitary sleepers displayed
several signs of greater personal independence. These consisted of falling asleep
earlier, sleeping through the night more often, and weaning from
breast-feeding at earlier ages. >>
Greater personal independence = weaning at an earlier age?
So bizarre a way to describe "personal independence." I'd match my family
bed, nursed til 2.5 and 4 years old kids with with any other young adults for
their "personal independence" characteristics.
And the article even states that the family bed kids exhibited more
"self-reliance and social independence."
"social independence" vs "personal independence"? very strange.
Nicky
+++++++++++++++
Here's the entire article:
Week of Jan. 22, 2005; Vol. 167, No. 4 , p. 61
Goodnight moon, hello Mom and Dad
Bruce Bower
Some researchers decry the practice of permitting babies and young children
to sleep in the same bed as their parents do, warning of its potential to
smother youngsters, both physically and emotionally. Others regard this
arrangement, known as co-sleeping, as a way to build strong families and emotionally
secure children. New data suggest that this debate is too simplistic. Two
contrasting types of co-sleeping exist in the United States, say Meret A. Keller and
Wendy A. Goldberg, both of the University of California, Irvine.
If co-sleeping begins after an infant reaches age 1 and in response to the
child's bedtime struggles, sleep is often disrupted for everyone in the bed and
family tensions are increased, the psychologists hold. However, co-sleeping
generally proceeds smoothly when it begins within the first few months of an
infant's birth and continues into toddlerhood, Keller and Goldberg report in the
December 2004 Infant and Child Development.
The researchers surveyed 83 mothers of California preschoolers. Of that
number, 32 said that their child had always slept in a separate room, 28 reported
routine co-sleeping that began during the child's infancy, and 23 said that
co-sleeping began around age 1 or later in response to the child's sleep problems.
Intriguingly, mothers reported that preschoolers who began co-sleeping as
infants exhibited more self-reliance and social independence—such as settling
disputes with playmates on their own—than did those who slept alone or started
co-sleeping at later ages.
Compared with either group of co-sleepers, solitary sleepers displayed
several signs of greater personal independence. These consisted of falling asleep
earlier, sleeping through the night more often, and weaning from breast-feeding
at earlier ages.
Deborah Harper
Cry it out probably has many definitions. Ferber describes cry it out as scheduled crying. API would encourage picking up and holding a crying infant, trying to figure out what is causing the child to cry to meet the child's needs, and then if nothing can be discovered, simply holding the child to let them know that they are loved and valued and not abandoned, even if we can't understand what needs they are trying to communicate to us. There are some children, however, that do prefer to be put down. And so the need that is causing the child to cry might actually be to be put down. If your child wants down, holding him while he is crying isn't helping him. But if he is crying for some other reason, most often he will be at least somewhat soothed by being close to mom, even if he doesn't stop crying.
When I mentioned cry it out in the context of LLL and breastfeeding I was talking about the various cry it out techniques of systematically teaching a child to sleep through cry it out (actually learned hopelessness and subsequent abandonment of attempts to communicate needs for closeness through crying).
Deborah Harper
When I mentioned cry it out in the context of LLL and breastfeeding I was talking about the various cry it out techniques of systematically teaching a child to sleep through cry it out (actually learned hopelessness and subsequent abandonment of attempts to communicate needs for closeness through crying).
Deborah Harper
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] "Cry it out"
In a message dated 2/13/05 5:33:15 PM, jimpetersonl@... writes:
<< I did not realize it was defined as not checking basic needs and then
some. >>
I think it's going by the clock, or by mom's mood. "It's 8:00 and that's his
bedtime" or "I can't deal with him anymore, let him cry himself to sleep."
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555
>But if he is crying for some other reason, most often he will be atWhen my son was a newborn (5 wks old i think), i tried to take a
>least somewhat soothed by being close to mom, even if he doesn't
>stop crying.
shower briefly. Normally i would take him into the bathroom with me,
or even into the shower if he needed me too, but his father was over
at our apt putting together a new chest of drawers. While i was
showering, i heard Seamus crying and crying. I got out, dried off,
and came into the bedroom to see my newborn son just lying there on
the bed screaming his head off, his father busily working on the
chest a few feet away. I was pretty pissed off "Why arent you
holding him?!"...his answer was that he picked him up, seamus didnt
stop crying, so he figured he'd set him back down and continue his
work. Egads. I wonder how someone can ignore a crying baby and go
about their business.
I only have one child, but i can't imagine modelling letting a new
baby (or anyone for that matter)cry all alone. What do people say to
their older kids?? I dont think my son would sit by and watch his
(hypothetical)little sister or brother cry, even if an adult wouldnt
pick up the baby...i bet he would.
Katherine
smudj5
Wow- I am really enjoying this list and this thread in particular-
though somewhat delayed due to a virus in the house and something
about my kids and dh needing me:)
LLL does not endorse any particular style of parenting, and during
meetings, leaders are supposed to keep conversations balanced when
discussing nightime needs, crying solutions,and other related
parenting issues. While leaders might find it personally
challenging to help moms who are struggling with a nighttime
parenting issue and are inclined toward "letting baby cry alone in a
crib",(and many moms don't become leaders because of this), the
LLLLeader would encourage the mother to examine her feelings by
using active listening techniques and in a meeting situation, would
ask other moms for ideas about what worked for them in similar
situations or would simply say that "many moms have found that
bringing baby close to you at night is helpful, or sidecar or
cosleeping or whatever..." The goal is to give information and not
advice and by using this technique you empower moms and boost their
confidence and guide them to put aside conventional wisdom and
others opinions and to examine what THEY feel is best for their
child- I liked how Sandra put it- encouraging a partnership with
your baby. Most LLLLeaders would discourage the crying it out in a
crib because that violates one of the ten concepts which is (yes, I
am quoting again- well trained leader that I am)"From infancy on,
children need loving guidance which reflects acceptance of their
capabilities and sensitivity to their feelings." AH- so I guess it
isn't completely balanced as most leaders wouldn't
suggest "ferberizing" your baby...but we would say "It seems like
that that worked for Jane and I am glad you found a solution to your
sleep issues, Does anyone else have a different experience?"
COnventional parenting may meet baby's basic need for food but when
babies go from one container to another and mothers are constatnly
encourages to take breaks and encourage independence from their baby-
it is no wonder they have no idea that their baby is a full person
too! Basically, LLL encourages interdependence and it gets
moms to treat babies like people with feelings and opinions! If you
stick around at meetings and get passed the basic mechanics of
breastfeeding (so many moms say -"I know HOW to breastfeed so what
can LLL offer me? snort!") -I say, LLL has a lot to offer, but you
have to dig a little!! One LLL mom wrote in their publication
that "breastfeeding is the HUMAN way to feed a baby- with your arms,
with your milk, with your love." To me, unschooling is the HUMANE
way to raise your kids, with your attention, with your support, with
freedom and with your love.
Peace.
Susan
though somewhat delayed due to a virus in the house and something
about my kids and dh needing me:)
LLL does not endorse any particular style of parenting, and during
meetings, leaders are supposed to keep conversations balanced when
discussing nightime needs, crying solutions,and other related
parenting issues. While leaders might find it personally
challenging to help moms who are struggling with a nighttime
parenting issue and are inclined toward "letting baby cry alone in a
crib",(and many moms don't become leaders because of this), the
LLLLeader would encourage the mother to examine her feelings by
using active listening techniques and in a meeting situation, would
ask other moms for ideas about what worked for them in similar
situations or would simply say that "many moms have found that
bringing baby close to you at night is helpful, or sidecar or
cosleeping or whatever..." The goal is to give information and not
advice and by using this technique you empower moms and boost their
confidence and guide them to put aside conventional wisdom and
others opinions and to examine what THEY feel is best for their
child- I liked how Sandra put it- encouraging a partnership with
your baby. Most LLLLeaders would discourage the crying it out in a
crib because that violates one of the ten concepts which is (yes, I
am quoting again- well trained leader that I am)"From infancy on,
children need loving guidance which reflects acceptance of their
capabilities and sensitivity to their feelings." AH- so I guess it
isn't completely balanced as most leaders wouldn't
suggest "ferberizing" your baby...but we would say "It seems like
that that worked for Jane and I am glad you found a solution to your
sleep issues, Does anyone else have a different experience?"
COnventional parenting may meet baby's basic need for food but when
babies go from one container to another and mothers are constatnly
encourages to take breaks and encourage independence from their baby-
it is no wonder they have no idea that their baby is a full person
too! Basically, LLL encourages interdependence and it gets
moms to treat babies like people with feelings and opinions! If you
stick around at meetings and get passed the basic mechanics of
breastfeeding (so many moms say -"I know HOW to breastfeed so what
can LLL offer me? snort!") -I say, LLL has a lot to offer, but you
have to dig a little!! One LLL mom wrote in their publication
that "breastfeeding is the HUMAN way to feed a baby- with your arms,
with your milk, with your love." To me, unschooling is the HUMANE
way to raise your kids, with your attention, with your support, with
freedom and with your love.
Peace.
Susan
Deborah Harper
<<I only have one child, but i can't imagine modelling letting a new
baby (or anyone for that matter)cry all alone. What do people say to
their older kids?? I dont think my son would sit by and watch his
(hypothetical)little sister or brother cry, even if an adult wouldnt
pick up the baby...i bet he would. >>
While visiting my brother's family in FL (we're in NC) there were often times when everyone's needs came to crescendo at once. My brother has 3 boys, at that time 4yo, almost 2 yo, and 4 mos old. My daughter was 2.5. It was fairly chaotic there and usually the needs were something like, Mom, I dumped the honey on my head and it's stinging my eyes, Gavin get down from the entertainment center, and the infant crying. My SIL would do her best to prioritize and get the quick things out of the way if the baby needed to nurse or something. However, my daughter would be completely distraught that no one was rushing to hold the baby right away. She would call to me saying, "He NEEDS you, Mom!!!" If I was also necessarily delayed for a minute (with my heart breaking) my daughter would pat his feet and sing to him and try to soothe him. It was the sweetest thing for me to see. She was clearly moved at the very core by his cries. Something I too have witnessed a complete absence of in other people sometimes. How sad to be so disconnected from compassion.
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
baby (or anyone for that matter)cry all alone. What do people say to
their older kids?? I dont think my son would sit by and watch his
(hypothetical)little sister or brother cry, even if an adult wouldnt
pick up the baby...i bet he would. >>
While visiting my brother's family in FL (we're in NC) there were often times when everyone's needs came to crescendo at once. My brother has 3 boys, at that time 4yo, almost 2 yo, and 4 mos old. My daughter was 2.5. It was fairly chaotic there and usually the needs were something like, Mom, I dumped the honey on my head and it's stinging my eyes, Gavin get down from the entertainment center, and the infant crying. My SIL would do her best to prioritize and get the quick things out of the way if the baby needed to nurse or something. However, my daughter would be completely distraught that no one was rushing to hold the baby right away. She would call to me saying, "He NEEDS you, Mom!!!" If I was also necessarily delayed for a minute (with my heart breaking) my daughter would pat his feet and sing to him and try to soothe him. It was the sweetest thing for me to see. She was clearly moved at the very core by his cries. Something I too have witnessed a complete absence of in other people sometimes. How sad to be so disconnected from compassion.
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/05 8:20:02 AM, smj8@... writes:
<< I liked how Sandra put it- encouraging a partnership with
your baby. >>
Carol Rice and Kathy Hoag, my first leaders, used that phrase. They'd say
"you're your baby's partner, not his adversary." That made my life (and
Kirby's, and Marty's, and Holly's) WAY better!!
Sandra
<< I liked how Sandra put it- encouraging a partnership with
your baby. >>
Carol Rice and Kathy Hoag, my first leaders, used that phrase. They'd say
"you're your baby's partner, not his adversary." That made my life (and
Kirby's, and Marty's, and Holly's) WAY better!!
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
On Feb 14, 2005, at 9:26 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
not adversaries. I read somewhere somebody said that when they start to
feel adversarial, they make themselves physically stand side-by-side
with their child - rather than face-to-face. Shoulder-to-shoulder feels
like you're facing the same way, looking toward the same goal, on the
same team, working together and not against each other. A physical
movement to a different position can change developing dynamics.
-pam
> << I liked how Sandra put it- encouraging a partnership withSame for older children - I try to think of us as in a partnership and
>
> your baby. >>
>
> Carol Rice and Kathy Hoag, my first leaders, used that phrase. They'd
> say
> "you're your baby's partner, not his adversary." That made my life
> (and
> Kirby's, and Marty's, and Holly's) WAY better!!
not adversaries. I read somewhere somebody said that when they start to
feel adversarial, they make themselves physically stand side-by-side
with their child - rather than face-to-face. Shoulder-to-shoulder feels
like you're facing the same way, looking toward the same goal, on the
same team, working together and not against each other. A physical
movement to a different position can change developing dynamics.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/05 11:10:05 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< Shoulder-to-shoulder feels
like you're facing the same way, looking toward the same goal, on the
same team, working together and not against each other. A physical
movement to a different position can change developing dynamics. >>
Maybe that's why men get along well. They lean on the side of a truck to
talk. <g>
Women sit across the table from one another.
Sandra
<< Shoulder-to-shoulder feels
like you're facing the same way, looking toward the same goal, on the
same team, working together and not against each other. A physical
movement to a different position can change developing dynamics. >>
Maybe that's why men get along well. They lean on the side of a truck to
talk. <g>
Women sit across the table from one another.
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
Well - men are at more risk for an actual physical fight if things
start to feel confrontational....
-pam
start to feel confrontational....
-pam
On Feb 14, 2005, at 11:59 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
> << Shoulder-to-shoulder feels
> like you're facing the same way, looking toward the same goal, on the
> same team, working together and not against each other. A physical
> movement to a different position can change developing dynamics. >>
>
> Maybe that's why men get along well. They lean on the side of a truck
> to
> talk. <g>
> Women sit across the table from one another.
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/14/05 1:45:15 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< Well - men are at more risk for an actual physical fight if things
start to feel confrontational.... >>
Yeah, and then they make up and go out for a beer.
Women hurt each other badly but invisibly and then hate each other for years.
(Am I exaggerating or stereotyping? Yeah, but I don't mind. <g>)
Sandra
<< Well - men are at more risk for an actual physical fight if things
start to feel confrontational.... >>
Yeah, and then they make up and go out for a beer.
Women hurt each other badly but invisibly and then hate each other for years.
(Am I exaggerating or stereotyping? Yeah, but I don't mind. <g>)
Sandra
nellebelle
>>>because LLL was moving toward "you can still breastfeed if you work outside the home.">>>>I was a LLL leader from 1995 until 2002 or 2003. I can't speak for all in LLL, but in my experience the idea was to encourage moms to consider alternatives to full time work outside the home because babies and mothers need each other as much as they need to breastfeed. But, if a woman is going to work it is still better if the baby gets her breastmilk and she can breastfeed when she is with the baby. We also talked about delaying the return to work as long as possible, working as few hours away from home as possible, having a caretaker bring the baby in to be nursed rather than pumping and other possibilities. None of those as good as being with baby all the time, but all better than total weaning.
There were a couple of moms in our group who worked and the baby got most of it's milk during the night through co-sleeping. We often encouraged those mothers to share their story when the issue came up.
Maybe it is similar to the way that steps toward unschooling are better than "school at home". A mom who works and breastfeeds her first baby might be more likely to just stay home with the next one. Maybe. Or maybe she will return to work, continue breastfeeding, and realize work is not the world she wants to be in right then. That is what happened to me. When I quit my outside job, I was still a breastfeeding mother because I had continued to breastfeed while working.
Big steps might be best, but little steps are better than no steps.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nisha
A walk or car ride somewhere can help things a long too. You are
facing the same direction and going that way together. SOmething
about that seems to help. I'm talking one on one here, family trips
seem to take on a whole different dynamic. LOL
Nisha
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
start to feel adversarial, they make themselves physically stand
side-by-side with their child - rather than face-to-face. Shoulder-
to-shoulder feels like you're facing the same way, looking toward
the same goal, on the same team, working together and not against
each other. A physical movement to a different position can change
developing dynamics.
facing the same direction and going that way together. SOmething
about that seems to help. I'm talking one on one here, family trips
seem to take on a whole different dynamic. LOL
Nisha
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> Same for older children - I try to think of us as in a partnershipand not adversaries. I read somewhere somebody said that when they
start to feel adversarial, they make themselves physically stand
side-by-side with their child - rather than face-to-face. Shoulder-
to-shoulder feels like you're facing the same way, looking toward
the same goal, on the same team, working together and not against
each other. A physical movement to a different position can change
developing dynamics.
>
> -pam
Dawn Adams
<<Compared with either group of co-sleepers, solitary sleepers displayed
several signs of greater personal independence. These consisted of falling
asleep
earlier, sleeping through the night more often, and weaning from
breast-feeding at earlier ages. >>
Greater personal independence = weaning at an earlier age?
dry diaper. When he's in his own bed he's up several times to nurse and is
soggy by morning. Hmmm.
Dawn (in NS)
PS. I just realized my 20 yr old self would condemn me in no time if I'd
been someone she knew. In his mother's bed? Still nursing? Ich. And not
potty trained?! What a lazy, sick mother.
:)
several signs of greater personal independence. These consisted of falling
asleep
earlier, sleeping through the night more often, and weaning from
breast-feeding at earlier ages. >>
Greater personal independence = weaning at an earlier age?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.When my son (3) sleeps in my bed he rarely nurses, sleeps through and has a
dry diaper. When he's in his own bed he's up several times to nurse and is
soggy by morning. Hmmm.
Dawn (in NS)
PS. I just realized my 20 yr old self would condemn me in no time if I'd
been someone she knew. In his mother's bed? Still nursing? Ich. And not
potty trained?! What a lazy, sick mother.
:)